Just dot the big adds or go sub tbh
#assassination
remote oak
dense quest
sub on heroic zul kinda sucks
sullen hollow
go sub
shrewd bane
yy i'm dotting but idk
dense quest
especially if you have a lot of dps
hushed turtle
Why would it cost u gold to sim?
hollow stone
You should if you are gonna play sin and want to pad but it is counterintuitive to the strat. Just for padding
royal lantern
you ignore the small shit and just spam FoK->evis the entire fight
sullen hollow
@hushed turtle respeccing his traITS
royal lantern
thats how you do zul
shrewd bane
y tyran
hushed turtle
U can sim them without respecing
remote oak
Sub is useless if your raid kills off the crawgs with their aoe
silver egret
you dont have to respec traits to sim lmao
sullen hollow
shuriken storm + evis
hollow stone
You can sim all the traits, @loud lichen
loud lichen
wait... you dont?
hushed turtle
top gear, select all traits
high siren
can the crogs stay alive for you shuriken spam ?
loud lichen
oh lord you guys just saved me all my gold
remote oak
Yes
royal lantern
well, on hc maybe, but that will not be the case on mythic
dense quest
our group I could only probably get about 5-6 fok evis in the opener before everything dies
royal lantern
zul on hc is allready a joke now cus people out gear it so hard with m+ items
sullen hollow
you might aswell get used to playing sub on zul
dusk sun
is sharpened blade 1x any good?
sullen hollow
i mean assa can conquer on zul
silver egret
it could be if you sim it
hollow stone
Sub is strong on zul. Sin is still fine tho
nocturne cradle
The latest simcraft build for ilevel 385 uses 3 SS still http://simulationcraft.org/reports/T22_Raid.html
strange python
got another SS-chest from PvP-chest ...
hollow stone
Sin st is still very competitive
rough phoenix
And outlaw?
remote oak
Sub is just typically better from a priority damage perspective
hollow stone
Agreed, ghost
remote oak
In order to get important adds down fast
strange python
3 x SS still good tho, ye?
dense quest
sim it to be sure
spiral snow
borka 3x ss still sims the highest for me so it definitely did not fall behind
strange python
Ty @spiral snow 😃
hollow stone
3ss is still good its just not best for literally everythig anymore
simple meteor
some maybe sim higher but for m plus the stealth resets gets SS ahead for sure
lone junco
SS is good for m+ but you should probably be using an uldir trait.
strange python
Don't have any Uldir gear as of now sadly
median dagger
@remote oak how did u get so high Aoe Sims? have pretty similiar gear to you, what settings did you use? 😃
quick egret
Ive run 2x normals clears and 2x heroic up to zul with no azerite pieces dropping for me lol
median dagger
ah ok! 😃 ty
remote oak
I logged out as is
hushed turtle
@lone junco i assume u r refering to using the uldir trait while in uldir and not m+?
hollow stone
I got nothing from heroic, or normal the last two weeks then got a 385 az helm from weekly chest and 2 370s from heroic yesterday. May the luck gods be in your favor
strange python
what i should pick Elemental whirl or Earthlink...sim picks EW and but by herodamage is EL
quick egret
Thanks Applejuice! I have my mythic chest to open when i get home from work, fingers crossed!
cold meteor
Sim > herodamage
dense quest
did everyone get an azerite piece yesterday?
was that the blizzard backluck protection day?
frosty obsidian
No ur just a lucky fuck
dense quest
but did you get azerite before?
little sparrow
I got the TD dagger 385 
frosty obsidian
2 380 rings in a row when I already had good rings
tidal sedge
no the azerite bad luck is like the legendary bad luck
hushed turtle
got a 380 ring from m+ and 370 azerite fro mpvp
calm grail
Wonder why SS is so low on the hero damage m+ page for traits.
strange python
tidal sedge
you may not get one for weeks
white seal
Guys what does the +5 and +10 mean I’m Laser Matrix?
tidal sedge
from the chest
remote oak
I got a 380 dagger with a socket
haughty flame
guys is sin still good?
onyx wind
did method kill ghuun?
hushed turtle
LM increases in value every week
white seal
Ty
umbral comet
lumbermill? TOPKEK
dense quest
@onyx wind no I dont think so yet
devout jolt
they haven't
onyx wind
oh, fair eenough
onyx wind
What do you mean?
devout jolt
@onyx wind taking a break as their Healing Officer is at work lul
solid nova
4:30gmt raid continues
strange python
where can i check up BiS-azerite traits?
night prawn
Toxic blade is now better than exsg or not yet ?
onyx wind
depends on your traits
night prawn
talking about ST
onyx wind
Best combination of items right now does not include you using eeexsanguinate
hushed turtle
Sim it with your gear to find out
onyx wind
Hopefully that answers your queestion
night prawn
ya we need lot of luck to get 3 SF at 380 ilvl
onyx wind
SF?
night prawn
Shrouded suffocation
solid nova
SS*
onyx wind
oh lol
night prawn
lol
onyx wind
wee call it SS in here
onyx wind
Best talent setup right now according to sims
mystic vapor
Simmed with MA 1x 1archive 1x rezan 1 x dagger ye my traits are shit but hey 385 azerite gear so can't replace them
onyx wind
is 2x SB 1x archive/matrix
mystic vapor
got 16.1
onyx wind
231xx21
hushed turtle
Yea im stuck with Twist, SS, LM
night prawn
i will try different combination and sims that after work i'm glad to past my free time to sims instead of play. Thanks you blizzad
mystic vapor
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tbXGWgmh9rCepUgD2ceN7n its like this in gear compare
night prawn
wow
hushed turtle
I mean, simming can be done in background and takes like 2 mnis
solid nova
Big boi sim
sudden trench
Hmm
acoustic cave
hey guys so what do you think after nerfs should we still go with SS?
sudden trench
Sim yourself
solid parrot
damn azerite from chest 2 weeks in a row?!
mystic vapor
ye
valid junco
Tryan what azerite traits u use , the main ones ?
night prawn
I dont think its a strong nerf in ST cuz now u can equip higher ilvl on azerith and u are not stuck with 340... but in M+ I think u loose so much dps in trash pack...
solid nova
Welcome to DPS, Where 99% of your gearing and talent questions can be answered accurately via sims 🙌
acoustic cave
I was doing like 34k dps on trash without using any cds now its around 23k
solid parrot
lol
little sparrow
"I was doing astronomical dps on trash without any cds now it's only very good"
acoustic cave
yes xd
night prawn
i'm not surprise @acoustic cave looks normal now
umbral comet
How is assa opener now after SS nerfs?
acoustic cave
I mean its good I am just not sure if I want to stack SS or na
viscid onyx
are u guys siming nigthly or weekly?
viscid onyx
ah ok
short scarab
How do you play with sharpend blade and ma ? do i vanish for a full envenom followed by a poisned knife toss ?
acoustic cave
anyone tryed out double dose ?
weak trench
I haven't checked out i am in school atm is there an update list of bis traits for sin rogues? 😄
mellow cypress
Herodamage updated last night
acoustic cave
yea
mellow cypress
I went all in reforging gear to DD but looks like SS is still super viable lol. Gonna test tonight in m+
acoustic cave
I think SS is still best option becasue of the cleave you get when opening on a pack
mellow cypress
I need new daggers badly. 340s. I switched from outlaw. Which m+ should I be spamming for dagger?
mossy flicker
tol fuckin dagor
mellow cypress
Ok cool. Should be fuckin fun with teeming.
mossy flicker
😄
undone sandal
mellow cypress
Teeming and fortified same week is aids tbh
acoustic cave
I did atal 8 today it was a blast 😄
strange python
@mellow cypress Go outlaw, cleave everything!
mellow cypress
Gotta shroud some packs. For sure. Some will be unkillable. Or take like 3 wipes to get past
strange python
did atal 5 just now, 2 outlaws and one DH
viral juniper
was shrine 10 with guildies, 60 deaths haha, but got the dagger 375 ;D
mellow cypress
I am currently outlaw lol. Still too much. The tanks can’t survive
main rain
Teeming + fortified calls for CT
strange python
y
opal mason
is there a way to sim just azerite traits or is gear compare the best way?
dawn dragon
mmm wait, what does the x5 and x10 means on the herodamage & blootmallet azerite traits ? for archive & laser
acoustic cave
I really wanna try out 3 stack Sob
opal mason
woeful moth
@dawn dragon the stacks of reorg array
hollow stone
We're going dh so blizz nerfs them or buff rogues @lapis osprey
woeful moth
Finally got two ss azerite pieces and it gets nerf
mellow cypress
@opal mason you can sim different traits on raidbots
lapis osprey
That what I figured
woeful moth
Still doing good damage though
lapis osprey
Did the nerf go through yet though?
hollow stone
Im just kidding. Rogue is still quite strong
woeful moth
Yesterday
main rain
SS is still decent, great for m+
hollow stone
Yes in na, i think live in eu now
lapis osprey
Damn it really sucks I wish I had know that before
I really don't like playing general traits like dagger in the back and stuff
woeful moth
Still good in raid too. Dots do damage while you deal with mechanics
opal mason
@mellow cypress under gear compare, right? just pick random gear with the traits and ilvl and sim or is there a specific azerite trait sim?
hollow stone
Ss value in raid went way down, but it is still good. Yeah
cold rampart
lapis osprey
Is there anything better now?
woeful moth
What’s the current greatest rogue value in raid then
hollow pine
@hollow stone Are you using at least one SS?
hollow stone
@cold rampart no. Same ench gives dr
gloomy stump
why does this sim so low? doesnt it work prop?
woeful moth
@cold rampart you can but it’s better to go with your two important sub stats
hollow stone
@hollow pine i was til it turns out i have horseshoes up my ass. Got a 385 helm, and 370 chest and shoulders yesterday. Even with subpar traits, they were simming better for st than ss
wide vine
M+ 3 x SS in raid many seems to be going 2 x DD and 1 x archive
jade sail
@gloomy stump i got one too and it sims low too, lower than my darkmoon deck
woeful moth
Which one is dd. sorry
cerulean anchor
so last night i got all three azerite pieces with archive on them. is that still bis outside of raid?
wide vine
Double dose
hollow pine
@hollow stone Yeah... Same for me. How have you changed your opener without the CP bonus from SS? 3 garrotes and 1 mutilate?
woeful moth
Fathoms deck is just so strongk
You would need to check bloodmallet for the archive with no stacks
I don’t think it’s bis
strange python
355 Fathoms and a 345 Galecallers is better than all my 380 trinkets. 😬 😬 😬 😬
woeful moth
Same
strange python
😬 🔫 ⚰ ⚰ ⚰ 👀
brave gyro
Only have 1x DD PepeHands
hollow stone
For st, its back to legion (basically) without kb. So g, m, r, vend, tb, mut - env, and im gonna be trying out ma tonight and would be vanishing mid tb for ma to come back during that mini burn @hollow pine
Tbd if ma is actually good or not..
hollow pine
@hollow stone Wow, that's a good test
brave gyro
Even with 1xSS is good to do g,r,g no?
hollow stone
For sure. 1 or more ss you still wanna grg
brave gyro
I saw u said g,m, r
spiral snow
is it possible to create a weakaura where you track how many ruptures you still have on mobs?
hollow stone
Or ggr to save a couple gcds. But fairly certain grg is better
Thats with no ss @brave gyro
brave gyro
Ah ok
chrome ledge
Do we go crimson tempest this week in m+?
hollow stone
Fortifies this week. For sure go ct
brave gyro
I'll still go 3x SS in m+
wide vine
Yup
woeful moth
Hmnng I think I scrapped my dd gear
wide vine
Still very strong
safe root
haven't played CT in a while, still only casting with <2s on dot right?
merry rune
I think double dose is actually decent
hollow stone
I think i will too. But i was simming higher w/o any uldir stacks in sim in hectic add w/o ss because of ilvl
strange python
Tbh, do you keep CT up during ST?
brave gyro
Especially on fortified, 3xSS and CT nobody can beat us
hollow stone
Will need to be messed around with
brave gyro
Bloodmallet is out of date atm
hollow stone
@safe root yes. Or in 5-6+ situations where your energy is ok
calm grail
You are supposed to use Crimson Tempest even without fortify for Mythic Plus.
Poison bomb is only a 2% single-target increase generally
brave gyro
Herodamage has newer sims atm
woeful moth
So ct over poison bomb?
calm grail
You just don't CT the bosses and take that small loss for more add damage.
safe root
i run with a very heavy aoe team generally so i go PB on most m+
calm grail
For Mythic plus yeah
hollow stone
In general, ct > pb in m+, yeah
calm grail
Again, poison bomb is like 2% of your single Target damage
safe root
personal preference, maybe not the most optimal
hollow stone
But i mean, if youre running w a frost mage and a dh...
woeful moth
So then pain raid is fine
calm grail
So even if you already have an AoE heavy comp you are still just going to clear faster.
woeful moth
Pb*
hollow stone
On tyrannical
tight meteor
everyone using tb now or still exnag
brave gyro
hollow stone
Most using tb. But gotta sim it
calm grail
2% ST isn't going to make the difference on tyrannical mostly if it was, you already have other problems to begin with.
shy mica
im still using exsang for more prio dmg
hollow stone
Fair point
umbral comet
How is the Assa opener now after SS nerfs?
hollow pine
I changed to TB. I'll use Ex when I get a good Galecaller
brave gyro
Exang is worth with Gale trinket only imo
calm grail
Otsu, your damage is less bursty on the opener but you creep up pretty fast still
hushed crane
why is galecaller good with exsang?
edgy wharf
Which trait is now best after SS nerf?
umbral comet
nana, im asking about the actual ability order
brave gyro
I have a 355 gale, but I got 375 on use agi. That sims 0.1% less with Exang. Will try it tonight with KB
safe root
assumign the APL has updated taking into account the ss nerfs
hollow pine
It almost caps your haste and gives Exs garrote more ticks
clever coral
Is 2xDD and 1 SS better in raids ord m+?
edgy wharf
DD?
safe root
double dose
nova gorge
Double dose
opal mason
double dees
edgy wharf
thanks
brave gyro
Dont trust the APLs too hard atm. They still sim with 3xSS
opal mason
i personally enjoy 2x dd + 1x ss
brave gyro
Like, Sin is higher than it shows on simcraft atm
split oracle
nova gorge
I assume that the opening rotations remain unchanged?
split oracle
I suppose 3xss is still best for m+?
edgy wharf
DD works with TB?
random ginkgo
Its my pvp talents but i Like the number tho
brave gyro
I meant the Simcraft ones, for all classes @calm grail
calm grail
Ahh
mellow cypress
@opal mason naw in gear compare you can select multiple traits on one piece to compare
calm grail
My apologies.
safe root
i only check my personal APL from latest sims
opal mason
dd does work with tb
clever coral
I have 2x DD + 1 SS atm but i guess thats better for raids?
jade sail
If blindside is simming higher should I be using that? I felt super underpowered last time i pulled with that....
umbral comet
so is it garr - rup - garr - rup - vendetta?
opal mason
@clever coral imo raids and pvp XD
grim mason
@umbral comet hmh
umbral comet
Or garr - muti - rup vendetta?
grim mason
er mhm yes thats correct
safe root
with exsang ?
cerulean anchor
reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
safe root
@umbral comet
umbral comet
with exang
opal mason
i do garrote > rup > muti> vendetta > vanish > garrote > rup
grim mason
GRGVT
agile phoenix
with toxic blade how do you guys aim to get max envenom debuff uptime, or is that of non importance ?
brave gyro
I'm running atm TB with:
1xSS
1xDD
1xTitan
opal mason
y tho
clever coral
@opal mason alright thanks for clearing that up for me
And 3x SS for m+ then?
opal mason
im doing tb
hollow stone
If you fit in 2+ 4-5cp envs in your tb, youre doing it right
safe root
yeah not you sorry jay
wind whale
Has anyone tested Twisting the knife trait stack?
grim mason
Garrote Rup Garrote Ven TB Enven
hollow stone
Twist the knife is OKAY at best
opal mason
lol its coo
brave gyro
Tb is:
G,r,g,vendetta, tb, env spam
grim mason
i'm running 3x's SS
opal mason
idk i like the feel of a vendetta'd garrote
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sRMKS8wnv5cQEXUz3HymZw
1x ss 2x dd at a lower ilvl btw
hollow stone
Im using twist atm because its better than laser matrix (with no uldir stacks)
strange python
With SSx3 Exsang was simming higher than TB.
civic forge
umbral comet
Aye ash, i do the same opener then i refres after exang with vanish for sustain
opal mason
is that using an early refresh to rup to max length anyway?
brave gyro
You want as many garrote tics in vendetta, that's why u do:
g r g Ven tb env spam
hollow stone
Honestly, check the pins. They outline openers really well and break it down by with or without ss traits and with tb or exsang
safe root
ya after my initial garrotes wear off i vanish and re-apply 2x g's
wind whale
i think im running 1 archive/1 DD/ 1SS
grim mason
!pin
tropic furnace
I was in +6 now with 1 DD 1 SS and 1x Scent
hasty crater
Lot of people not going for SB bcs they hate it or bcs they dont have the pieces ?
hollow pine
@brave gyro There is another garrote there.
main rain
There you go
hollow pine
@brave gyro Ops, Rupture.
opal mason
imo sb is annoying AF
brave gyro
You dont refresh rupture with TB @hollow pine
hollow stone
🧀
opal mason
yeah, the crits are there
lone junco
If you are playing any spec. Sim it and then read the apl.
split dirge
fuck MA feels awful
lone junco
It changes with knife. Or tb. Or ma. Or subterfuge.
opal mason
it worked for me a little bit in pvp when going against kiters
hasty crater
2xsb + archive sims highest for me by quite a bit
lone junco
@split dirge oy it's like a limp noodle.
opal mason
even in the first 5 bosses last night with sb, but... ehh....
lone junco
I'll be back to subterfuge exang tonight but 1ss.
cerulean anchor
in what scenario are people using MA?
lapis osprey
Yeah sb just feels so bad
split dirge
MA really doesnt feel like it should be a talent on the sam row as subter and ns
mossy flicker
SB is Scent of Blood ?
rich olive
So what is the go to build now?
cerulean anchor
people using MA with no ss?
opal mason
ok, here's the real question i'm about to sim.... 1x ss, 2x dd > tb or exsang
hasty crater
Sharpened blades
hushed turtle
Sharp blades
gilded mirage
when running CT, proper usage is to let it tick down before hitting it again, correct?
jaunty arrow
its worth still use ss?
split dirge
MA sims higher for me but i might just go back to outlaw
mossy flicker
I hate this traits lol
opal mason
@rich olive dont think it's been decided. the go to answer is
split dirge
with no ss)
rich olive
I'd assume for m+ atleast the go to is still 3x SS?
split dirge
yea
cerulean anchor
ma sims higher with no ss for you? hmm....i haven’t tried simming ma
hollow stone
Ilvl > a specific trait stacking (for the most part). But sim yo self
hasty crater
@cerulean anchor yeah i personally sim higher with 0 ss
lapis osprey
I don't understand what array stacks are
cerulean anchor
hmm
opal mason
cerulean anchor
i ended at 15k on mother normal last night with 2 ss and that was a 95, that was pre archive for me
jaunty arrow
so rip ss, cool i have some double dose 
clever coral
Opener with tb?
opal mason
i mean I don't think dd has been established as king
hasty crater
got the chest piece from fetid, rly gonna have to reforge the trait between archive and ss depending on if i raid or m+ lmao
sinful lotus
So even if MA still sims higher for some people (like myself) is it worth it to use Subterfuge even with zero SS traits and no Xsang>?
opal mason
but it's definitely not bad
lapis osprey
I checked the pins and I see what +10 and +5 are for but I don't know what array stacks are at all
fast rune
hey, would you use sharrpened blades?
proven pumice
I do well enough in dungeons, but I'm really struggling in raids. Can I use wowanalyzer to help see what I'm doing wrong, or do y'all suggest staying away from it
jaunty arrow
well 1ss is ok but 2-3 nah
opal mason
1x ss 2x dd atm >.>
hasty crater
@fast rune if you dont hate it and ahve the pieces then yes
lapis osprey
Why aren't people running 3 dd?
brave gyro
I will play whatever is good 🤷 if it means learning new playstyle, its cool. I main my class, not spec 🤷
sinful lotus
@opal mason with Xsang and SUb instead of TB?
hasty crater
3 is good, 2x + an archive or laser is even better i think
opal mason
@lapis osprey cause people like ss cps
fast rune
oki doki
hollow stone
Array stacks are uldir only buff that scales week to week as long as you kill 3+ bosses in the previous week
fast rune
does nerfed SS on SIN gives subtlety or outlaw advantage?
opal mason
@sinful lotus yeah, like, does the 40% bonus dmg to DD make tb worth over exsang... gotta sim it
mossy flicker
but 2 or 3 DD is a loss of aoe damages ?
opal mason
m+ SS still wrecks
gilded mirage
Is the correct use of CT to let it tick down or do we just spam it?
hollow stone
Dd is st outside of raid, just to further complicate 😃
sinful lotus
@opal mason Well, 2xDD + 1x SoB (370 vs my SS which is 340) with TB and MA sims higher than my 2xDD +1x 340 SS with Xsang by about 100 DPS
tropic furnace
I'm simming best with 1x SS 1x DD and 1x Scent 😭
sinful lotus
but idk, i miss the burst of the opener. And not sure how I feel about MA and TB
opal mason
@sinful lotus yeah that was my initial guess, siming myself now as well. ty for the info 😄
my ilvl is trash tho :[ only 350
clever coral
When do u use tb? After vendetta?
fair hill
Yes
wary temple
That moment when haste is bigger than agility and mastery > crit..
sinful lotus
@opal mason let me know what you get
ripe dock
Is it not worth double stacking garrote after vanish with zero SS?
fallow sinew
3XSS for M+ still best ?
jade sail
How come blindside is simming higher for me than EP
jade sail
I tried it last night and couldnt crack 11k
opal mason
i should be working right nowbut im fucking siming myself
clever coral
G-r-g-v-tb-r ?
hollow cloud
opal mason
le sigh
brave gyro
i got from a +10 a 370 dagger finally on monday. Now only 1x 340 one to replace 😭
small fiber
is it worth using double dose instead of shroud?
onyx wind
Did 20k total in +9 shrinee
jade sail
Like everyone here says sim your talents but im pretty sure im not supposed to use blindside
opal mason
ayyy
onyx wind
and the tank chainpulled
brave gyro
@clever coral if u run tb, you dont refresh Rupture.
g, r, g, Ven, tb, env spam
random pollen
What traits exeo?
fair hill
@onyx wind MA?
random pollen
Cool
onyx wind
subterfuge
cerulean anchor
lmao do you guys ever try reading up or do you just spam as soon as you enter
same question asked 10 times a minute
clever coral
@brave gyro so refresh rupture when it runs out?
brave gyro
Im surprised you went sub on fortified. I would assume Sin is better overall with CT @onyx wind
onyx wind
brave gyro
yea @clever coral
onyx wind
I meant sub as in subterfuge
opal mason
mmmmmmmmmm love seeing garrote on top
lost coral
did they fix the bug?>
brave gyro
ahhh, okay @onyx wind xD
cold patio
exeo how u use ct after pull say 3 mobs ( g g g and than ct or some r befor?)
inner pulsar
If you have no SS trait, it would make sense that sim is suggesting Master Assassin on single target right?
rigid wyvern
It hurts so much 😦 9k garrote tick to 5.5k
stoic pelican
OMG. assassin is so fun. I feel like a 15year old again playing wow for the first time
hollow stone
Seems likely ma > subt without any ss traits. But, yknow, sim it
stoic pelican
I mained feral for years. its like feral but better in every way possible and its not useless
sinful lotus
@onyx wind You went 2ss 1SB in M+, you doing the same for raid? With Xsang and Sub?
hollow stone
Feral op right now, we all going feral, tho..
dull lava
So is the prevailing wisdom that DD stacked is better for a raiding environment than 3x SS?
inner pulsar
@hollow stone Right, and that is what the sim said, just doing a sanity check
dull garden
what dagger should i be farming, crystal shiv right?
calm barn
meh 1xAotT+2xSB sim 20dps higher than 1xAotT+2DD what should I do
hollow stone
If everything is equal and you can choose between dd or ss, dd should be better for raiding. But you gotta sim it lol
opal mason
!ss
prisma monolithBOT
Shrouded Suffocation
Currently still bugged. Applying 1-3 Garrotes in Subterfuge, and then applying another Garrote outside of Subterfuge, all of your Subterfuge-empowered Garrotes lose the Shrouded Suffocation multiplier, However the Subterfuge multiplier still remains.
Advised to not cast unbuffed Garrotes to avoid losing SS trait damage bonuses until this has been fixed.
ripe dock
My 340 Galecallers sims 0.3% higher than 370 Cannon. Not worth it?
sinful lotus
@onyx wind what IL are you Azerite pieces exeo?
bold steppe
Depends on the fight
onyx wind
385 Sb 340 ss/sb 385 ss
bold steppe
It sure is worth it if there's a priority add or burst window
sinful lotus
ah ok makes sense
sly kestrel
For raiding, you need at least one Uldir azerite for the array stacks, mythic plus 3xss is still awesome
ripe dock
true true
hollow stone
I had the same reaction @inner pulsar
bold steppe
Probably not otherwise as boon drops off significantly when the fight isn't patchwerk
brittle idol
!sb
onyx wind
I would use array if i had it
static shore
@onyx wind so still 3x ss?
bold steppe
Like, the worst case scenario for boon is the boss gets moved and you get screwed out of your rune
sinful lotus
See this is me with TB and MA. 2Xdd 1xSoB sims higher than: 2xDD +1xSS with Xsang and Sub, and also sims higher than 2xDD + 1x SoB with just TB and SUB
But still not sure what to do. it's the difference between 13643 and 13756
13643 is 2xDD 1xSS and Xsang and sub
hollow pine
@static shore 3 ss for myth+
static shore
for single ?
full flicker
@onyx wind exsang or tb in that 20k run?
full flicker
mmmkay, sounds juicy
hollow stone
Just to emphasize for st ilvl being king. Im using tradewinds trait in my 385 helm... im betting most or all of you need to look up what tradewinds is because nobody wants it
hollow pine
@static shore SB is simming higher for me. But I hate it 😃
sinful lotus
@onyx wind So you went TB in M+ even with 2xSS?
onyx wind
yees
sinful lotus
hmm. But for raids you go back to Xsang?
little sparrow
Hey @onyx wind
little sparrow
What traits are we using for m+? Whatever sims highest for st or 3x SS?
onyx wind
optimally 3xss
full flicker
@onyx wind and the sb trait, how is that integrated into your rota? stack to 30 and then hit someone with a massive poisoned knife?
violet lintel
so even this is better than cannon? wha ... it shows a loss though? XD
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3TPtLnpqzFdQkTZ2xY47sg
calm barn
@hollow stone whats the uptime on tradewinds?
dull lava
exeo are we at the point where exsang is outshined by TB with the nerf to SS?
stuck shuttle
yea because cannon is trash
violet lintel
cannons fun though idc
calm tulip
what traits for m+ now?
violet lintel
:3
onyx wind
crimson tempest
little sparrow
EP?
ripe dock
is MA vanish the same as legion rotation wise?
onyx wind
elaborate plannin
gilded mirage
@onyx wind for CT usage, do you let it tick down before using again or do you spam it aoe situations?
gilded mirage
ok, tyvm
full flicker
yea, ty
sinful lotus
@ripe dock I asked the same earlier, and people recommended vanishing with 5 CP mid TB to get 2 MA buffed ENV
sinful lotus
and without knife?
safe root
for fort + teeming i wonder if its better to let it sit its duration and refresh <2s while focusing on your garrote/rupture uptime moreso
little sparrow
I'm 370 equipped with ST gear but 364 with 3x SS. Is SS worth 6ilevel drop? I simmed it at 3 bosses but it's unclear
opal mason
sb 🙅
onyx wind
No idea
safe root
will play around later
little sparrow
How do you guys feel about crimson tempest? Worth using even with dip in ST?
onyx wind
@little sparrow Yes, if your tank is not a monkey
theen its worth
not worth to use in ST
late dawn
At what cooldown point of vanish and exsanguinate should I not use either and just wait until they are both up? Running with 1 shrouded suffocation
opal mason
i wonder what it's like to be geared
onyx wind
and i dont use it in 2targets either
opal mason
😢
onyx wind
unleess theyre bulky
wraith mesa
Should i go x2 SS + Meticulous or 1x SS, 1x Arch, 1x Meticulous
safe root
sim
little sparrow
Sim
clever coral
MA?
wraith mesa
Mediculous scheming
little sparrow
Master Assassin
onyx wind
im 100% sure
smoky wind
How would my opener be with MA + TB? Would it be; g, r, g, v, tb, vanish 2x envenom?
smoky wind
oh wait, that was stupid
little sparrow
Archive worth breaking 3x SS?
stuck shuttle
yes
onyx wind
unless its a 40 ilvl downgradee
stuck shuttle
in raid
hushed turtle
in raid yea
onyx wind
evreything is worth breaking 3xss in raids atm
little sparrow
I can run archive + 2x SS
hollow stone
@calm barn its not great. I was just showing that even a middle of the pack trait is good w high ilvl pieces now
little sparrow
I'm just worried about M+ dps, raid is 
wraith mesa
should i farm 340 for Archi and replace my SS 370 ?
onyx wind
m+ dps is fine atm
sinful lotus
@smoky wind In think it's the TB opener. Gar - Mut - Rup - Vendetta - Mut - TB
onyx wind
But we will be fucked oncee fortifieed is over
little sparrow
Just swap to outlaw for the week 
sinful lotus
Question is, if you're using MA, when to really utilize it? During vendetta, full CP Vanish midway through TB then get 2x Env buffed by MA?
onyx wind
vanish
SB
no
what
vanish+TB+envenom
+mut
use those 3
or SB if you havee trait
sinful lotus
Not suing SB, but wouldn't i have used TB before vanish?
i want to vanish before using TB?
hollow stone
Yea. If sb, you def want your ma van to line up w a dagger toss
onyx wind
Yes
little sparrow
Azerite system makes me miss legion legendaries. It's so bad
strange python
You M+'ers sticking SS? I feel that I will.
onyx wind
you can only geet 3 globals off
hollow stone
Those are big crits
stiff grotto
changes at assasination after nerfs?
hollow stone
Dont fool yourself, az is better than legos were at launches
calm tulip
is 3+ ss still good for m+?
opaque grotto
Yeah no more 40k+ trash pulls but it’s still good
mild violet
do we just abandon ship with ss for raids?
late niche
lol when you use envenom without any poisons you get a message ''You do not have deadly poison or wound poison active''
Is that new?
hollow stone
Pretty much @mild violet
smoky wind
@sinful lotus ok, thank you
hollow stone
Right
Youll still probably use ss on fetid chest assuming you can get array from another piece
long bramble
Is it worth it to just wear all raid azerite gear in uldir now to start stacking them
onyx wind
I think you abandom SS in raids
unless you have them high ilvl
same ilvl other traits will be better
long bramble
Wait im dumb don't need to wear it for it to stack right
stuck shuttle
@long bramble nope
sinful lotus
Ok, for those using TB and thinking about using MA. Thanks to @onyx wind 's advice, i guess the opener looks like this? Stealth/pot/shenanigans - Gar - Mut - Rup - Vendetta - Vanish - TB - Mut -ENV-Mut-Env etc...?
stuck shuttle
just in bags.
hollow stone
You dont even need it in bags
little sparrow
I can't wait to get home and sim my chest as archive and see if 2x archive beats out this random DIB 385
hollow stone
Got my first array piece last night and was at 3 stacks of array
sinful lotus
Any ways to test on training dummy? Vanish resets my dmg meter
long bramble
how do you check the stacks? do you just go into Uldir?
stuck shuttle
if you use your skills fast enough, vanish won't reset your meter.
hushed turtle
get a friend
cold meteor
array is retro active
long bramble
and the sim API takes stacks into account right
hollow stone
@sinful lotus either have a friend hitting it or set to all dmg and reset meter after each "pull"
gray shuttle
no sim taking only +5 array into account
sinful lotus
@hollow stone ah good idea!
main blaze
Its not the APL that takes it into accounts its the program
wraith mesa
what is the opener if we use 3x Archive ? do we keep doing G-R-G-V-TB-E
sinful lotus
@hollow stone ty
hollow stone
You can adjust array stacks in sims in raidbots. They have a write up on the site explaining how
main blaze
In raidbots there is an option to choose the array stacks you want
main blaze
If you tell it to
hollow stone
Idk specifically how the smart sim is coded so just go in options and set your stacks manually
main blaze
Yeah me too
onyx wind
aw
main blaze
It checks using simc addon
ripe dock
Does Subterfuge alone without SS not make it worth double garroting after vanish?
main blaze
but I just set the stacks myself
fresh abyss
so don't wanna be too shite
main blaze
Defend usually
fresh abyss
it's the orb bg
main blaze
but stealth capping can be good too but defending better
bold ice
Anyone here playing with sharpened blade traits?
main blaze
then just yolo, I hate that bg
onyx wind
me
hollow stone
Oh. Just leave. Rogues are useless in temple
ripe dock
YOu can just assasinate orb guys and vanish tho
bold ice
@onyx wind all 3 sb traits or just 2?
onyx wind
2
bold ice
What's your other?
hollow stone
I know. Im over reacting but maaaan temple sucks 😦
late niche
orb bg is fun, get berserk, use 30% damage pvp potion, one shot every orb carrier
late dawn
what is the global cooldown for rogues?
dusk sun
u think it'll be nice to use 2DD 1SS?
hollow stone
1
late dawn
haste doesnt effect it right?
hollow stone
Right
onyx wind
haste doesnt affeect rogue gcd no
bold ice
@onyx wind cool, I'm currently using 2 sb and 1 double dose. I'm normally outlaw but going to mess around in normal raid tonight on assassination or sub, still debating. Def more comfortable as assassin though.
onyx wind
if you have an uldir trait, use that
bold ice
I don't. Drops so far have been all weapons and trinkets from raid...
onyx wind
Alright
ripe dock
Is it worth clipping Surge of Toxins? Does envenom have a chance to apply a deadly proc?
ripe dock
oh it's just called envenom
dusk sun
how about 2 SS 1 DD?
ripe dock
the buff
hollow stone
Just sim it guys, as exeo n i have been saying ilvl > specific traits (in general) now
If equal ilvl, sb and dd are top simming non raid traits for st
onyx wind
^
past harbor
how do you sim different azerite traits on raidbots?
dusk sun
for cleave?
stuck shuttle
top gear
ripe dock
If I can clip EP after my last envenom, is it worth it or better to let envenom buff run it's duration if I wont energy cap?
stuck shuttle
then select every trait combination you want to try
hollow stone
Click all the traits you want it to sim, the will highlight (in top gear sim category)
gentle hornet
Did you say you’re using meticulous scheming Apple? I have a 370 helm with meticulous, 355 laser, or 340 dd
hollow stone
Im using tradewinds on a 385 helm
And tradewins is garbo trait. But sims best because ilvl
gentle hornet
Meticulous scheming has been extremely underwhelming. Sometimes it procs a second time time during the haste buff and then no procs for like 2 min
I got the same helm for my m10 lol
strange python
been playing around with traits and talents, simming the highest with 1x DD 1x BI 1x AotT in raids
TB
hollow stone
Meti is when you have to use 3 diff abilities, right?
gentle hornet
Took inevitability for sub since I’m just piecing together sin stuff still
hollow stone
So you need to control the proc yourself. Its not straight up going to proc
opal mason
BiS trait for stacking rn is 3x Exeo
mellow cypress
I guys sim light movement or patchwerk?
autumn pagoda
So you need simcraft to use top gear?
opal mason
@autumn pagoda yup
gentle hornet
Yeah. I set up WA to see the initial proc and then I do the 3 abilities
And during the haste buff I usually have it proc once more. But after that I don’t see it for like 2 min
Did you get the flashpowder helm?
hollow stone
Now that your 340 ss piece doesnt beat out your 385 pieces, yeah, you need to sim to know your bis
jagged finch
regardless of how you playing you want at least x1 laser matrix trait
hollow stone
Yeah @gentle hornet The game really wants me to play sub
jagged finch
i'll prob run LM x1 and SS x2 for M+
inner pulsar
I wish Raidbots would show what traits someone as active in their sim output links
karmic shadow
when running with 1xSB should i be using Poisoned Knife every time when i get the 30 stacks? or are there times i should be using it sooner?
little sparrow
3x what @opal mason
gentle hornet
It sims as best for me but on a target dummy I wasn’t getting much procs and my real time testing had it lower dps for me
sinful lotus
I know this has been asked, but just want to confirm. Are we still taking 3XSS to M+ with CT regardless of IL, or is it better to take 2SS and say a higher IL DD (in my case)?
vernal sinew
guys wich trait is good now?
little sparrow
Exeo? Lmfao
wheat zealot
jagged finch
@sinful lotus no you need 1 laser matrix trait
viral juniper
3x ss foor m+ 2dd 1 archiv for raid
sinful lotus
@jagged finch Dont have one
versed bobcat
wtf is exeo
rancid oxide
I hope they nerf exeo I don't like that trait
hollow cloud
jagged finch
better get farming normal
hollow stone
@onyx wind is exeo
opal mason
@rancid oxide hush, exeo will always be BiS
mellow cypress
Lasers only good in uldir so make sure you’re summit right. Archive on 370 sims better for me than BIS 340 pieces
polar condor
Sin is still siming higher for me over sub for ST. Anyone else in the same boat?
jagged finch
yes it sims higher ST
on cleave Sub higher for me tho
but thats extended duration
little sparrow
the simcraft profile is completely wrong
opal mason
@little sparrow SimC
fresh abyss
as in the default settings?
jagged finch
you can still rock x3 SS
rancid oxide
I got my first two raid pieces last night but they were both helms
polar condor
Use nightly version too
fresh abyss
should i use default settings when running sims?
opal mason
@rancid oxide one for each head 😉
frigid kestrel
Where is the best place to farm SS gear.... I don’t have a single piece.
knotty cedar
i use 2 sb and 1 razen and i am happy for st but am not sure if that will be good for m+
opal mason
There really isn't a 'place'
mellow cypress
Check azerite.info
opal mason
@frigid kestrel https://azerite.info/ -- select SS and look up drops
frigid kestrel
My hero’s
jagged finch
@frigid kestrel there was a zandalari WQ which was giving azerite loot as reward if you get the shoulders it has the ss trait. aside from that mythic 0 or uldir chest
rancid oxide
I equiped the archive from vectis and then when I got the lazor from mythrax I traded it to a dh who had 0 raid pieces
Im such a good guy
restive copper
so since the nerf, whats our best trait in terms of raiding
opal mason
@frigid kestrel unless you're gearing for M+ i wouldnt worry about getting more than 1
knotty cedar
is hectic sim the closest possible to m+ ?
mellow cypress
Welp last night I got traded a 370 cloak which was a big upgrade then killed next boss and got 390 TF so feels bad man. Took a 370 from someone for 1 boss lol.
rancid oxide
Patch werk 4-6 targets 20-30 seconds
frigid kestrel
@jagged finch most WQ’s drop gear with a 20 ilvl difference. And it’s not summing higher for me so I don’t bother to get them.
opal mason
God... I need to work on trinks today
wraith mesa
hi, can some1 help me to understand the bloodmallet graph plz for the azerite traits... not sure to understand all the information in it
opal mason
120k for a darkmoon deck: fathoms 
wraith mesa
the Darkmoon seems to bit less usefull than before 😛
stuck shuttle
the graph is quite simple.
wraith mesa
thx hecktix
mellow cypress
GL getting any upgrades from m+ this week. Affixes are just aids on anything 8+
opal mason
I mean, he's not wrong...
sly kestrel
teeming is crazy this expansion, it's like blizzard added more adds into teeming than last expansion
gilded kite
Use advanced options to filter by ilvl
opal mason
Use the key, my dude.
mellow cypress
Be prepared to tank any keys 8+ and be in there for a couple hours
opal mason
or that
knotty cedar
i may be wrong but blood mallet trait stack is for 385 ilvl while herodamage gives u the option for 340 or 385
gilded kite
Then click bar and it let's you compare
violet lintel
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
jagged finch
@frigid kestrel its the emissary and it drops 340 if you have like some actual gear
frigid kestrel
I’m 347 and my WQ still giving me 325
jagged finch
emissary cache dude
visual token
For the emissary?
jagged finch
reward from when you complete x4 WQ
rancid oxide
Creeping venom
jagged finch
not the wq themselves
rancid oxide
Idiots never stop moving
fresh abyss
naice
frigid kestrel
@jagged finch I do them all and still nothing, maybe I’m just unlucky
rancid oxide
Dot stays forevwr
wheat zealot
Having to explain what an emissary is in 2018
wheat zealot
languid harness
Hey guys, what's our new rotation? 🤔 Playing with master assassin and tb5
Well opener I guess
frigid kestrel
Your talking about the emissary quests. The ones where you do 4 wq and get a prize..... right?
wheat zealot
Master assassin🤢
visual token
Yes.
wheat zealot
Well ss isent bis now so doesnt really matter lul
jagged finch
like i said
visual token
It would be nice to get a dagger emissary just once tho
charred hornet
what is our biss now and when is the nerf coming to SS or has it happened?
jagged finch
so you do the emissary you have 1/3 chance to get the shoulders at 340
wheat zealot
Deathsnap jerkin from the voldun one too
jagged finch
^
ripe dock
With MA should I save Vendetta Vanish for TB? Or Save TB? Or don't bother syncing? 🤔
charred hornet
@wheat zealot What is our Bis now that ss is being / got nerfed mate? (and when is the nerf happening if it hasnt already)?
charred hornet
i checked herodamage was stilll saying ss
wide vine
SS still best for m+
charred hornet
but thanks for reply
wheat zealot
Bloodmallet is updated
wheat zealot
Always sim though
knotty cedar
can someone confirm SSx3 best for m+?
acoustic cave
simming 14k with 3x ss
stuck shuttle
only if its not a huge ilvl downgrade @knotty cedar
acoustic cave
on single
sinful lotus
@ripe dock I think you want to Vendetta, Vanish, TB , Mut, ENV during your MA window
gentle hornet
@mellow cypress we did Waycrest +9 and motherlode +9. O my god. Don’t wanna do anymore lol. Teeming + quaking in those is just ridiculous
languid harness
What's our new opener? if anyone knows.
edgy latch
How exactly do you play with Sharpened Blades? On cd at 30 or save 'til vendetta?
languid harness
on cd i guess, dont want to lose out on it
hushed crane
you get SB 30 stacks quite fast
dim cedar
If i burn it at like 25-29 is that a dps loss?
acoustic cave
@knotty cedar I think its still best for m+ my sim says 30k dps for add cleave with 3x SS its still really good I think
bold ice
I've read to use it at 29+
olive pagoda
3x SS still best option for best pve dmg ?
languid harness
no
past harbor
gotta pin some 3x SS shit now
pulsar bluff
if i go for 3 archive traits, will i stack faster after a raid ?
languid harness
no0
pulsar bluff
or its the same as one
wraith mesa
this is with 1x Arch, 1x SS, and the other one its just dump
stuck shuttle
no
pulsar bluff
ok ok thanks !
olive pagoda
ok what is now the best to go ?
violet lintel
traitless 😉
languid harness
SS is goodfor m+ but not for raiding afak
gentle hornet
I’ve read sb at27+ to not waste stacks. As others have said it ramps up pretty quick
vestal abyss
We need to set up a guide because reading the same 3 questions every 5 minutes is getting ridiculous
wraith mesa
of wut i heard, Archive x1 need to be use but it doesnt worth the stracking of this traits... after that... i'm honest idk wut do to lol
ripe dock
So I have a lot of questions about rotations right now that guides wouldn't cover and no one seems to know. Does anyone know a good guide to get me started on sims rotation and test different rotations myself?
stuck shuttle
sims rotations? you mean APLs?
stuck shuttle
You can edit the APL yourself
daring imp
yea that i'm fucked up
ripe dock
Like, check what rotation my sim used, aswell as test my own rotations
Don't understand APL ect
yet 😄
stuck shuttle
Run a sim and check the detailed SimC report
wooden island
has shroud of suffuction got nerfed?
stuck shuttle
you can see the APL there
lone plaza
Nightly or weekly for the sims atm?
stuck shuttle
nightly
daring imp
apl is "action priority list", whatever the sim will cast in order/priority if different stuff coming off cd at the same time
stuck shuttle
rarely ever use weekly
daring imp
@wooden island yes
fringe valley
When using the Sim website, do I ever need to adjust the APL based on what gear/traits im using? Or is it just smarter than me?
fringe valley
wow that is so handy
daring imp
"or is it just smarter than me" lul
stuck shuttle
thats how sims work. It's all in the APL.
daring imp
sorry i just giggled
ripe dock
For example: I want to know if it's worth clipping EP AFTER I envenom if I am able to, or if it's just worth waiting for the envenom buff to expire first for poison proc, IF I don't cap energy
Also: wether I should hold TB, or use TB and Hold Vanish/Vendetta when it comes back
and so on
daring imp
stuck shuttle
clipping EP after you envenom?
ripe dock
Yeah but that would mean I would not Vendetta vanish on CD, IF I am saving with MA
stuck shuttle
what do you mean.
ripe dock
Casting Envenom inside Elaborate Planning buff
knotty cedar
@stuck shuttle is it worth pooling energy and mutilate during enven buff?
ripe dock
But that would also equal less envenom buff uptime
stuck shuttle
no
stuck shuttle
u want to keep EP up as much as possible
ripe dock
I get that
stuck shuttle
you don't want to overlap them
ripe dock
Clipping means with 0.1 left
little sparrow
Just use a WA to track it and finish at < 0.5s every finisher after opener
ripe dock
So it's just a scenario that pops up
I have the option
and wonder which choice is better
gilded mirage
!ss
prisma monolithBOT
Shrouded Suffocation
Currently still bugged. Applying 1-3 Garrotes in Subterfuge, and then applying another Garrote outside of Subterfuge, all of your Subterfuge-empowered Garrotes lose the Shrouded Suffocation multiplier, However the Subterfuge multiplier still remains.
Advised to not cast unbuffed Garrotes to avoid losing SS trait damage bonuses until this has been fixed.
long hill
after the nerf which trait we have to get? for ST in raid? and same talent build?
split dirge
how is it that i still havent dropped a single raid weapon for any either outlaw or sin
holy fuck kill me
daring imp
that had a bigger impact when we had way higher crit than today, @ripe dock , but the odds of you getting a 4cp mut are very, very low, tho simming it would give the definite answer, you'd see the difference would be minimal
when overflowing with energy you clip, yeah, but we're always starved if not on multi targets, even on 2x targets we're starved due to having to keep up rupture/garrote on both
knotty cedar
i have 2xSS for my m+ gear whats a good third trait with them? sb?
prime pasture
raiding since first week, no weapon for outlaw or sin or azerite piece @split dirge 😄
daring imp
@knotty cedar a 3rd SS
stuck shuttle
even in the opener, if you're using exsang, you don't clip EP
knotty cedar
dont have it xD
daring imp
higher ilvl azerite pieces then
violet lintel
conquest cap had a 345 dagger first week that could warforge
blazing raptor
^ that;s how i got my first purp dagger
daring imp
almost none aside from SS are decent on m+ ( because they either contribute to almost zero cleave/aoe dmg or only single target purposes )
ripe dock
During down phase, you can clip 2-3 enveoms in a row even if you have to mut twice so long as you pool for it. Which is why I'm asking
daring imp
i'd argue clipping two right now is already really hard on down phase
violet lintel
I still wonder how some of you in the 14-15k range would look doing this
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jB8CEBJUw2H9MudnnKSS57
(compare is without traits , shows with on preview)
