dont think thats going to be the case though, youd spend so much time setting up ruptures before you can start spamming fok, the pack is dead by then already
#assassination
marble hemlock
viscid helm
I just hope they would rework the 90 talent row
but i think that ship has sailed at this point
it's absolute garbage
funny thing is, Alacrity would beat all these options hands down
marble hemlock
feels like most of the talents are extremely weak
especially the t6/t7 ones
who knows, maybe poison bomb happens to be the best aoe talent afterall
so we just spam rupture on every mob
safe matrix
With poison bomb being trash, sin has become a pretty low rng spec
marble hemlock
and the energy regen+bomb proc chance will turn out to be better overall sustained aoe than spamming ct
yikes
green plume
yeah if it's energy that's a problem then perhaps subterfuge would be the way to go, iron wire may end up being really strong if there's scary caster packs in m+ too
I find it amusing internal bleeding is returning 49 energy over 6 seconds aswell though (at 12% haste, don't know if that's adding an extra tick)
marble hemlock
that talent was always a little underrated imo
but yes, for m+ id assume that subterfuge is the go-to talent sine youll be spamming CT instead of having one NS CT running full duration, to ensure higher energy regen during the opener on a trashpack
master assassin just doesnt last long enough to secure a few ruptures during the opener
viscid helm
yeh MA is just bad
marble hemlock
and energy will be the limiting factor again, unless theres some additional energy regen mechanic available to make up for losing t21 4pc
viscid helm
at it's current state
marble hemlock
which im not too sad about, having unlimited energy just felt bad
id rather not be hitting a button every sec and be limited by the scaling of the abilities
which is the issue right now
trail heron
well, but 50 point energy cost is a bit steep, like outlaw's saber slash. it is mitigated once you get your hands on haste rating, yes. but until then, it is pain.
and when you are under AR and even SnD, with fully stacked alacrity, you are at the 'what do i do with all this energy' step.
marble hemlock
yup
and not being limited by resources anymore is never a good sign
because it means the abilities are designed around that situation happening frequently, leading to them hitting like wet noodles
trail heron
so the issue seems to be more the 'you can stack too much resource regen'
but to be honest, i was there back in the day when they switched energy regen from 'per tick' to 'constant'
and i saw the crying
when you could no longer go and ambush/vanish in pvp, for another ambush, just as the regen tick came in (cost together, back then, 120 points, ambush did cost 60 energy)
marble hemlock
i just dont believe that improving energy regen is a good thing overall
trail heron
on a cooldown, like AR, or (if weaker) that subtlety one, sure, for burst windows
marble hemlock
it works with the "fast paced" gameplay the class is supposed to have, but from a design point of view having a class or even just spec with unlimited resources leads to a lot of headaches
trail heron
or, if i saw right, the passive energy gain from VW
those seem fine, but i'd rather have lower costs
marble hemlock
lower energy cost on abilities leads to the same problem though, theyd also have to lower the damage
trail heron
i remember classic rogues, where cheap shot was cheap in cost, as was garotte, while ambush did cost 60 points. backstab was 55 or so, i believe
marble hemlock
meaning youll get to a point where you push a button, and you dont feel like anything really happens
trail heron
sinister strike could, with a 2 point talent, be pushed to 40
marble hemlock
ambush was 45energy as sub
trail heron
but you still used SS for 'in combat' building when vanish and preparation were on CD
marble hemlock
sub was just spamming hemo instead since it was a 35energy style, and ghostly strike since it had higher ap scaling per energy spent than hemo
fallow estuary
Everyone talking about changes and Beta... Am Titanslayer since 2-3 months, still no beta invite :c
trail heron
the thing is, outlaw's extreme energy regen might be to make up for the 'only proc or RNG buff' based combopoint generation
marble hemlock
well, the good ones did that switched into a 2.8speed MH after opening with a dagger 😛
combat just suffers from having a few abilities that simply dont work with BF
which is really damn stupid
trail heron
assassination has 'gain a second CP when you crit with a CP builder', sub has 'gain cp from simply hacking away with autoattack'.
marble hemlock
and having to rely on those abilities to be weaved into your aoe gameplay because theyre "free cp" just feels incredibly bad
trail heron
brb, lfr
stark heart
@trail heron there is Ruthlessness
marble hemlock
is sub keeping the +1cp per target hit with fok?
stark heart
yes
marble hemlock
in before sub becomes the new assa by just spamming nightblade on all targets
like it was during nighthold
marble hemlock
does evis with 5 shuriken combo stacks deal more damage than a max-cp nightblade?
marble hemlock
if it doesnt, you may very well start multi-nightblading at the start and then turn to spamming evis once mobs are closer to dying
stark heart
NB is support finisher, primary value as of now is +15% damage increase
tbh I would like NB gone
marble hemlock
yeah
turbid harbor
multi dotting is better as sub if you don’t have a priority target
but most of the time you do
it’s funny because one of the design philosophies of the sub rework was to stop multi dotting being a gain
marble hemlock
not sure if that will be the case for bfa though, with finality gone and shuriken combo nerfed
lethal heart
multidotting as sub is realistic for most people only in a fight like coven really
marble hemlock
guess itll largely depend on whatever those t7 talents are going to be
lethal heart
i'd say more than 3 targets
it's just weird
because nb lasts only like 15 seconds
marble hemlock
18sec with DS
lethal heart
yea but you arent going for max cp on a 3-4 targets
because of shadow techniques
its fine to finish at even 4 cp
marble hemlock
so yeah, in bfa, on a big trashpack, just fok into NB for max overall dps until mobs are closer to dying, at which point you evis instead? sounds like assa 😄
stark heart
sounds bad indeed
lethal heart
was nb all targets -> track finality -> sprint (because it gave you vanish)
marble hemlock
yeah
and with finality gone and shuriken combo nerfed, that kind of gameplay may very well resurface
lethal heart
but then nb was hardest hitting dot in entire game
stark heart
finality doesn't really do anything to that dynamic imo
lethal heart
finality is just nice flavour
marble hemlock
all these more multipliers are what make the ss>evi>repeat spam so strong right now though, with some of these gone or nerfed the others become less valuable too
stark heart
well the same multipliers work for NB
lethal heart
yea aoe was only place where you could play around finality
stark heart
you can just say that both lost 12% damage
lethal heart
but i'm right it might be very confusing
to the casual player
i mean they're right
marble hemlock
well, shuriken combo obviously only affects evis
stark heart
which shouldn't do anything to who is better Evis or NB
marble hemlock
and both symbols and shd have a higher impact on evis than on NB imo
stark heart
combo nerf can make multidotting better sure
marble hemlock
i wonder what they have in store for sub in regards to energy sustain
because without artifact traits/goremaws, that must feel godawful right now
lethal heart
yea energy flow is really bad
marble hemlock
which leads to one of my earlier points
rogue as it is and has been the last few expansions, feels pretty lackluster as a base class, and is only playable without huge waiting times (and we still have plenty of those) because of multiple energy/cp regen mechanics
stark heart
depends what you define as "huge wait times"
marble hemlock
EN/ToV Assa wait-time says hi
stark heart
I don't recall how it was back then
marble hemlock
what was it back then, 40-50%?
still remember sims with like 23apm
and that was with 10energy on garrote/rupture tick VW
so if you ask me, all those energy refund/sustain/regain talents can fuck right off, becuase they almost always become the natural choice due to how the class just feels extremely slow to play without them
and it seems they are balanced around them too, so if you choose to not use them, its not like your abilities suddenly hit a lot harder due to the resource limitation
lethal heart
yea as sub it just feels weird when they take away energy traits/artifact
marble hemlock
because they dont, you just get a shitty cooldown instead like TB/exsang
lethal heart
on the other hand you can really talent around energy gain, which you dont do now, but probably that might be a go to in bfa
like vigor/shadow focus
marble hemlock
i mean
were kinda still doing that right now
with vigor, venomrush and mantle for opener to generate CP quickly to ramp up
marble hemlock
leave all of that, choose different talents/legendaries that dont affect your build-up as strongly, and whats left?
garrote, double mut/fok, rupture, out of energy
lethal heart
yea
marble hemlock
and again, its not like you suddenly gain a big-hitting ability or buffed fok/muti to make up for the slower gameplay
dfa has been sitting there in the talent tree for over a year now, and its absolutely garbage
because it just doesnt deal damage
not sure if that was supposed to be an alternative to venom rush for aoe
marble hemlock
yeah
lethal heart
but it's only 1 big damage multiplier
marble hemlock
fok 50 times until all mobs have 5stacks AP
lethal heart
whereas sub needed like 3-4 for that 😄
lethal heart
nah talking single target
marble hemlock
oh
marble hemlock
well, envenom was hitting for 8-10mil in nighthold
before they removed AP for ceremonial reasons
marble hemlock
ye
stark heart
that is why there are different talents in BfA
marble hemlock
well, bfa looks to have less energy sustain options for assa
stark heart
it's slower for all
marble hemlock
which is a good thing, if they manage to make abilities actually feel like they do damage again
because right now they sure dont
stark heart
regarding pace I believe 40-45 apm to be the mark to aim for
marble hemlock
yeah, that seems like a decent goal
stark heart
With outlaw going into 50-55 territory because it's supposed to be faster
marble hemlock
im honestly starting to wonder, what venomous wounds is even supposed to accomplish at this point
marble hemlock
like, why have such a mechanic when youre not multi-rupturing for aoe. may aswell just remove it and increase base regen or lower ability cost
its not like its something we play around in any way shape or form
stark heart
no idea
trail heron
actually, didn't they plan to utterly destroy the 'FoK spam only' playstyle?
stark heart
what do you think about PK instead of PB as talent?
marble hemlock
it would just be more consistent aoe instead of proc-based
so im all for it
problem with pk is that it double-dips
which immediately makes it so much harder to balance
stark heart
double dips?
marble hemlock
well
its based off of your DP damage
so your stats increase the damage of the DP, and then also increase that base-damage that is used for the PK calculation again
its what led to the whole pk-for-singletarget situation in the first place
stark heart
I am not sure if it's the case but anyway can always make it just unmodified damage of remaining dot.
marble hemlock
right now it does, stacking mastery increases both the DP damage and then again increases the pk damage
so yeah, theyd have to make it be some sort of "basedamage" thats not based off of any other stat thats already affected by your stats, that procs whenever you fok a target that already has DP on it
stark heart
alternatively can just increase instant portion of DP, that would not change muti vs fok dynamic and make it gain on ST
marble hemlock
i was always a big fan of having pk just apply on mutilate aswell
stark heart
I am just not a fan of PB, would like see it's gone
marble hemlock
i always hoped that back when they removed AP
theyd just put poison bomb there instead, and give us something else as a golden trait
stark heart
we have CT now
marble hemlock
so PB wouldve been an on-use in the same tier as alacrity/exsang right now
it obviously doesnt make sense for bfa because they dont want talent-choices to be between singletarget vs cleave vs aoe anymore
but for legion it wouldve worked fine imo
stark heart
well legion is over
marble hemlock
i actually dont understand that design decision
stark heart
practically
marble hemlock
why make all talents in the same tier the same, only slightly different flavour?
doesnt that automatically lead to talents that you never ever change even harder?
because you choose between 3 singletarget talents, and one of them will always be superior
marble hemlock
right now some classes can atleast talent between aoe or singletarget and have to make a concious decision about what they want out of that talent-row
always felt like that flexibility was a good thing
yeah but with how scaling in this game works, wont we just stick to the same talent in the aoe-tier for the entirety of the expansion?
stark heart
depends on how they balanced and designed
marble hemlock
imagine CT being better on 3targets than bomb/hidden blades. its not gonna change all of a sudden when youre looking at 5 or 10 or 20 targets
stark heart
I don't think that is the problem
marble hemlock
the only difference might be on singletarget
stark heart
HB is burst oriented talent
if you have encounter with every 30/40 seconds add waves I can see it being better
marble hemlock
CT is sustain, bomb is proc
marble hemlock
problem bomb
stark heart
if you feel like not bothering with CT/HB you pick it on AoE
or if you feel like no extra AoE on demand is needed
something like that
marble hemlock
but as you said it, there might be a situation where HB might be better
but how do you balance it then?
around those situations occuring? for singletarget? for long fights?
stark heart
ideally you make each talent pull ahead in different situations
and then it's on player to choose what is better when
marble hemlock
but isnt blizzard basically deciding at that point where youre using which talent?
there is no more player choice
marble hemlock
blizzard says "okay this is the burst every 30seconds talent, well balance it around that niche, whereas the others are balanced around sustained aoe which well balance those for"
at that point youre not making the decision when youll use which talent anymore
blizzard already did it for you
which would of course be in line with the current blizzard game-design
stark heart
I still don't get balancing point
marble hemlock
okay so
hidden blades
looks to be a good talent, as you said yourself, for bursting adds that spawn every 30-40seconds
at some point blizzard has to decide on its numbers, and will keep this niche-situation in mind, while trying to make sure its not just the go-to talent for every situation
thus leading to a very biased core-design of those talents, taking away any player choice because blizzard already dictates what niche thise talent is supposed to be good for
because since all these talents are aoe
one will be for that situation, and the other 2 will have theirs
stark heart
that's how talent works
marble hemlock
theyre not balanced by comparing them towards each other, theyre balanced around different situations alltogether
stark heart
you pick the one that fits the best for situation
they are balanced to each other lol
but each would have different profile
like say you have dungeon run
HB would gave you some peaks of damage on some packs
marble hemlock
are they balanced around each other, or balanced around all the other classes though?
marble hemlock
i just feel blizzard sets itself up for failure by wanting to provide different "options", which arent really options
i.e. some classes right now get to choose between a singletarget talent, an aoe talent, and some cleave or burst-cd
marble hemlock
depends on what type of content were talking about i guess
marble hemlock
so yeah, i guess for raids the new system makes a little more sense, whereas for dungeons it will be much worse
stark heart
what you want talents to do is make you more AoEish or more ST or more cleavy
marble hemlock
that was the point of view i was basing my arguments on, for dungeons right now theres is a lot to decide when you have to choose between an aoe, st and burst talent
with the new system, there is no decision to be made
there is going to be one talent that is always better
than the others
and youll never ever change it
stark heart
I don't think that is true
marble hemlock
well, looking at the current aoe-tier
youll just pick CT
and never change into something else
the only thing that may change is blizzard fixing up the numbers
at which point youll just take HB or PB for every situation instead
marble hemlock
well yeah, because right now we dont have any options either
but some classes do
boomy g ets to choose between wrath or starlord, depending on whether they want more aoe or singletarget
stark heart
PB gives you ST while CT does not
marble hemlock
lock chooses reap or sow the seeds
stark heart
so if you value ST more you pick it
marble hemlock
is CT not viable for ST right now? i always assumed it would just be another debuff to maintain
stark heart
I am not a fan of HB either but I guess if you have long pulls you can pick it
CT doesn't give energy
why would you pick it
for ST
marble hemlock
neither does envenom?
warm parcel
that gives poison dmg
sharp viper
no energy and 12 seconds uptime only, didnt check whether pandemic works on it
marble hemlock
or, when comparing talents, neither does HB/PB
stark heart
PB just passively works
marble hemlock
its really just about whether it has a higher damage per energy/cp ratio than your regular finishers, no?
stark heart
you have to do nothing for it to be there
sharp viper
pb doesnt drain energy or combo points tho, same for the fan talent
stark heart
envenom also gives you envenom buff
sharp viper
it needs to have higher damage than regular finishers+poisonbomb procs
marble hemlock
yeah
stark heart
so it's value lies in some DP damage it grants
marble hemlock
no idea what the current numbers look like, and if thats the case
warm parcel
- dmg gained from dp procs
marble hemlock
but thats just a numbers game afterall, atleast when looking at pure singletarget
stark heart
I mean that would be really weird for CT to work on ST over Envenom
then you would nevern envenom on AoE either probably
marble hemlock
i mean the only reason you do it now is because of VP 😄
stark heart
you do it now because there is nothing else to do
reapplying rupture is worthless
on ST
marble hemlock
if PB wasnt a thing
youd just overcap CP instead once fok beats envenom in the damage per execute calc
marble hemlock
because the 30% poison application chance doesnt do much unfortunately, since DP instant damage isnt that great
oh were talking st
well, its the same then, only with mut
strange python
fk
stark heart
you were talking ST
strange python
where do u get these cool icons
marble hemlock
[1:39 PM] Lorentz: then you would nevern envenom on AoE either probably
sharp viper
discord nitro
marble hemlock
was referring to that line
and again, its just a numbers game. envenom doesnt do all that much besides dealing damage instantly and having a follow-up damage component due to poison procrate. that can be calculated, and its not too far fetched for CT to have a higher damage per execute/cp value than envenom, is it?
so it might very well be possible that CT is a dps gain on singletarget aswell, same as PB/HB
viscid helm
CT should be ST increase rn, obviously assuming that the encounter does have more targets at somepoint to get more benefit out of CT
stark heart
viscid helm
if you pick CT, you would use it on ST
stark heart
I seriously doubt it would be better to use CT over Envenom on st
lethal heart
it wouldnt be better to use over envenom
viscid helm
Should be a gain every 12s?
lethal heart
but it would be worth to apply dot
probably
especially if it procs venom rush energy regain i guess
viscid helm
current numbers
viscid helm
dot deals as much dmg as 1 envenom cast
lethal heart
yea number changes are gonna change
i mean
number balance
jeez i sleep too short
green plume
CT fun facts: it does pandemic, and also has chance to apply your poisons to each target hit
stark heart
CT doesn't give you envenom buff tho
stark heart
which doesn't scale with mastery
it would be really weird to use CT
I can't imagine them balancing it in a way for it to be ST gain
viscid helm
🤷
green plume
at lvl. 110 in the base gear the numbers are so close I simply wouldn't use CT so I didn't have to worry about keeping track of an extra dot in single target
idk what numbers would be like though with higher level/different gear etc. and the talents you pick would alter the numbers
viscid helm
iirc i had around 30% ish mastery at 120 with 330ilvl
marble hemlock
dp application damage is still pretty low, so the buff from envenom has little value
stark heart
well not on beta
stark heart
you do not so many things on beta
so that passive damage is higher portion of your overall damage
marble hemlock
so yeah, its just a tuning-issue
depending on stats, that envenom really only leads to a certain number of additional DP applications, which ultimately means that if CT deals more damage than that, youre going to use it for ST
whether blizzard intends for that to be the case is anyones guess really
silk tangle
wrist and boots with t21 4p or shoulders wrist without 4p
viscid helm
sim
lethal heart
@marble hemlock do you know why is that when you distract enforcer in CoS it insta pulls after distract duration runs out?
just feature?
i even tried it on some boost for science, because i thought i'm making up stuff
marble hemlock
cause CoS is spaghetti code
its the only dungeon where when you distract mobs
they dont continue on their normal path
but instead decide to calculate where they should be if the distract didnt happen, and then run there asap
both enforcers and imps do that shit
lethal heart
yea
strange python
Cos is awful
lethal heart
i remember
strange python
Poor coding
marble hemlock
yeah
lethal heart
during bolstering week XD
strange python
I had that sap issue dude
lethal heart
that was something
strange python
Like 1 month ago
marble hemlock
that dungeon is just godawful alltogether
strange python
Wanted to kms
marble hemlock
pure rng
strange python
When the imp pack did a 180
trail heron
i think CoS might be borked due to the fact that it ALSO has civilians in masses in there.
marble hemlock
guess which one we timed
strange python
marble hemlock
being able to pull 6 constructs and aoe them with first boss
and not having to do harbour
strange python
yep
its stupid
especially if you have warlock
and subrogue
dungeon is a meme
marble hemlock
yup
marble hemlock
enforcer/buff rng is a pain too
lethal heart
that would be so easy
strange python
what we normally do
is send the hpally
to the opposite side
dont need a healer for enforcers
at all
or inquisor + enforcer if you do that pull
marble hemlock
i liked the dungeon for what it tried to do, but in a competitive environment that kind of design just makes for disappointing runs
strange python
and have the healer just drag it over
their solution for competitve was to just
take out all bufffs
x d
lethal heart
1/3 chance
i guess
that its giga scuffed
trap on high forti is just so nice
because that 2nd guy is so bad too
marble hemlock
dunno, never had an issue with that dude
unless tank pulls like he did yday
and its impossible to los without constantly leaving meleerange
casters always seem to mess up the los tho
honestly, the whole notion of being able to los/outrange abilities
is just shit
strange python
yah
marble hemlock
i hope kitepulls are not a thing in bfa
strange python
i agree
so far it doenst seem like it
and if u need to kite
good thing u have
crip poison
kappa
marble hemlock
hov used to be a hated dungeon for a reason, because people were too dumb to interrupt properly, ever since kitepulls came around everyone wants to go there
marble hemlock
mobs just shouldnt have a range-limit on abilities, and cast through LoS or smth
lethal heart
when you take away buffs from cos
strange python
mobs shouldnt have teh ability
lethal heart
this dungeon actually is hard tho
strange python
to global u
marble hemlock
is it?
marble hemlock
just need bumkin or monk for talixae
strange python
and takes u out of stealth
marble hemlock
and ever since people figured out how inquisitors work, theyre not an issue anymore either
strange python
i personally
lethal heart
losing out on 10% less damage taken
lethal heart
especially 2nd/3rd boss imo
marble hemlock
i always like wiping the grp on inquisitor, becuase i accidentally opened on them with garrote.... such a fun mechanic
strange python
all abilities are being baited onto you
lethal heart
yea brh is flat out stupid
strange python
like
lethal heart
nothing else to it
strange python
lets be real
strange python
honestly
lethal heart
you get one shot
marble hemlock
ye
strange python
everything else
should be subject to getting shit casted at them
like when i did my 26 with Shak and JB
JB was in range
baiting shoots
onto himself
marble hemlock
firemage too, because i still remember vanilla alterac with 46y castrange firemages destroying everything from the backlines 😄
lethal heart
but that last pack before 2nd boss
lethal heart
is actually bugged as fuck
sometimes my wa says
0.1 before shoot cast finished
that it is on me
insta one shot
????
strange python
no cheat death
marble hemlock
so the melee can do something else than play bejeweled behind a pillar
strange python
9x out of 10 i drop my trinkets
and just pray
after shakib double chains
and itnerrupts shoots
im on my own
marble hemlock
ye
vestal wren
anyone tested m+ on alpha?
lethal heart
it's same with thundercallers
and cats
like
what they did with cats
is what they should've done with archers
so enjoy ranged
with playing it aswell
if i have to be forced to play archers as melee
strange python
im going into BFA
lethal heart
they should make archers just target tank probably as it is right now
marble hemlock
havent really played beta yet at all
vestal wren
mage/mm/wl look rly good so far
marble hemlock
bumkin hype?
lethal heart
i played with doru and he said his raid leader is begging him
to play shadow priest
next expansion
or some shit 😄
strange python
lmaoooo
lethal heart
yea boomkin looks to be extremely bad
lethal heart
spriest was broken at the beginning of expansion
but well since surrner to madness was bis
like
vestal wren
it can but if it is you likely wont pick it
vestal wren
as risk reward is off
marble hemlock
sp was nice
lethal heart
for big reward
vestal wren
its kind of why noone plays sub atm (in raids)
lethal heart
that actually made spriest viable in m+ 😄
marble hemlock
well, stm is a great ability, but as you said, its either gimmicky and noone plays it, or people who know how to play will break the game with it
strange python
most of dot specs are boring
lethal heart
it feels like monk aoe with how spinning crane works
it cant be balanced when it infinitely scales with number of targets
vestal wren
i could update my statistic, tho last time i checked its 80%sin-10%sub-10%oultul
lethal heart
it's either really fucking strong or really bad that it's not worth using at all
vestal wren
hc and mythic raid statistic
marble hemlock
if every class had something like stm that gave you a high risk, high reward gameplay choice, with an extremely high skill requirement to pull it off
then it would be fine i think
except for all the people who arent good enough to play it crying
which is why something like stm will never again see the light of day
vestal wren
lethal heart
dfa definitely requires 200 iq to play, just like ricky and morty 👀
vestal wren
risk and reward is not connected
lethal heart
still far more assa parses in tos t ahn i'd expect
vestal wren
balancing is ignoring risk mostly
lethal heart
but it's probably skewed
steep obsidian
sin was ok in tos though
marble hemlock
ToS were good days, #1 parse on almost every boss
lethal heart
because so many people were literally forced to play stuff like avatar
on their alts
steep obsidian
the bosses that mattered sin was actually better in many ways
lethal heart
and obv assa is just far more friendly
to someone who has to play a fight
to help their guild
vestal wren
sin was good for the majority of the xpack
marble hemlock
btw
strange python
you are not forced to do anything unless you are in top100 guild fighting for high places
lethal heart
not really
vestal wren
but sin also got a buff in 2 raids out of the blue
lethal heart
even in top 400 guilds
marble hemlock
why are all the sub-plebs talking about the game in here, dont you guys have conversations like this in the sub channel?
lethal heart
it was just more worth
steep obsidian
not enitrely true
lethal heart
to bring a poor alt rogue
strange python
it is more worth
lethal heart
to have like 2-3 rogues
strange python
but u are not forced to do it
steep obsidian
if im playing the inferior spec and the other rogue is playing the better one and wrecking me
the rl is gonna ask me why and mebbe sit me
lethal heart
we had ret paladin play his assa rogue alt
steep obsidian
even in a not top 100 guild
lethal heart
i think
strange python
during ToS the difference between sin and sub was 8 or 9%?
vestal wren
tbh i think perceprion is often rly bad
steep obsidian
on maiden sin was fine
strange python
both specs were competitive and it didnt matter what you played unless you are 100% tryhard guild that requires max dps
steep obsidian
on avatarr the excute was very useful
marble hemlock
overall, the difference may have been that much wazon, but top 99% performance were fairly close to each other actually
steep obsidian
and you were there just as a soak bot for kj right?
vestal wren
e.g. i remember early in the xpack (after outlaw was nerfed) ppl not accepting anything other then sin in m+ keys
marble hemlock
and im not talking about 15% bomb parses
vestal wren
while outlaw was by the time the best m+ spec
lone junco
i liked it.
strange python
even right now outlaw is pretty good m+ spec
marble hemlock
its not
steep obsidian
what do you play in m+ outlaw anyway?
marble hemlock
not by a long shot
strange python
its good
steep obsidian
snd?
marble hemlock
sub is shit
marble hemlock
sub/assa are decent t2 specs for m+ right now
lone junco
you tellem.
lethal heart
depends what you want
strange python
lol
marble hemlock
here we go again 😄
vestal wren
sub is better in m+ atm on live
its not that great on alpha
lethal heart
assa is better for overall
steep obsidian
same
strange python
its not xD
vestal wren
sub is on live overall better for m+
strange python
i understand people can have different opinions
steep obsidian
only reason id play sub in a pug or one of my groups is to burst down imps in cos or something we dont do the mongo pulls sub requires to be op
strange python
but yeah
marble hemlock
lone junco
doesnt sin match or beat sub overall in a lot of cases?
strange python
i mean sin can be better for certain m+ scenarios
strange python
where lets say you have enough aoe burst that you'd rather go for sin to do better boss damage
marble hemlock
i need a meme-pic
lone junco
there are other classes that AoE at the 30m range.
marble hemlock
that says "its not all about burst damage"
lone junco
rogue is not that guy
lethal heart
why didnt you want to boost my monk in upper 27 @marble hemlock with seldnor 😠
vestal wren
🤔 i wounder why we didnt see sin in mdi if its the overall best spec for m+
marble hemlock
and sub cant hold that 30m for more than a few seconds
steep obsidian
and "its not all about the overall damage"
lethal heart
because mdi and live keys is different scenarios
marble hemlock
strange python
lul xD
vestal wren
poor mdi players are just to stupid to realise the issue they made
marble hemlock
27 intime hov btw, assa bad 😦
strange python
no
lone junco
they have different gear sets.
strange python
its because sub is a better m+ spec
lone junco
WOZZAN do you do +26?
vestal wren
oh ye you dont have glaives, rip sub even more
marble hemlock
sub and assa both have their places
for speedruns, you want sub everytime unless its upper
strange python
yes they do
marble hemlock
for highkeys you want assa, unless its eoa
strange python
and both are viable picks for high keys
vestal wren
if it comes to damage you simplay use a ww over a rogue 😉
lone junco
zing
simple yoke
can some1 recommend a specc to lvl on beta
strange python
marble hemlock
assa/sub are both t2 specs compared to stuff like mm, affli, bumkin or WW
strange python
idk about boomkin
lethal heart
what
marble hemlock
WAT
lethal heart
you want 2 boomkins
vestal wren
t0 = god tier?
lethal heart
in some dungeons even
marble hemlock
boomkin is in its own t0 league right now 😄
lethal heart
yes
marble hemlock
yeah
marble hemlock
boomkin is just ridiculous
lone junco
thanks
marble hemlock
by far the best aoe capabilities, both in short-duration fights and especially in sustained aoe
strange python
😄
lone junco
bear form and brez dont hurt
marble hemlock
anyway
rogue is kinda shit right now, theres a reason almost noone plays it anymore and instead rerolled to another class in order to push highkeys more consistently
or rather, not shit
but not great either
just look at that sebek dude
btw @lone junco noobe, you highlighted me tonight about that whole kite-pull issue in m+
and i wholeheartedly agree, it came up a bit earlier already, but i hope that shit is gone for bfa
strange python
m+ shouldnt be about
surviving 1shots
plaina nd si mple
and running around
with a 20 mob pack
for 2 minutes
jovial kite
who is tanner
marble hemlock
i respectfully disagree, it should be about efficient cooldown usage, both offensively and defensively
jovial kite
strange python
yeah
I mean i think once you
hyrja is just fine
yah you have to zone out
people just cant use their cooldowns
and respec talents
marble hemlock
defensive cooldowns are part of that equation, the problem we currently have is that trinkets like ishkars/titanguard/nightwell residue mess with that equation
strange python
well i mean
asi said
that falls into the category
of living unavoidable damage on some classes
if u run stam flask on rogeu + lock
steep obsidian
they can just make trinkets like that spec speicifc in the future
strange python
u can bait the expels onto those classes
vestal wren
bfa tuned down aoe alltogether
steep obsidian
but i dunno how you tune stuff to not 1 shot on really high key
vestal wren
so we might see less big pulls
marble hemlock
im fine with groups being forced to get a rogue and a boomkin so they can carry a monk with his shitty survivability because then the healer can use all his externals on the monk, since the other 2 dont need it
marble hemlock
some classes just take it too far, ours included
strange python
@marble hemlock what im gettng at is. classes that have 1 external
are prettty cucked
marble hemlock
yeah
thats why i want honor-talents for m+, where people can choose to get another CD if they so choose 😮
marble hemlock
or get an aoe stun instead
strange python
not being able to roll
on ishkars
and titanguards
this been suggested on forums
sucks ass
and they stated in Q&A it wont happen
marble hemlock
depending on what the grp wants, coordinating abilities
but that level of coordination is what i want in m+
marble hemlock
i.e. look at 3rd boss BRH, right now its busted to hell, but i would be fine if the entire grp would be able to see the beams except for the person that its on, thus requiring the group to quickly communicate and coordinate if they want a clean bosskill
marble hemlock
so the grp can run monk/hunter+boomkin
marble hemlock
just get your healthstones from proving grounds
strange python
however the hunter fucke dhyrja
and then fenryr
sick deplete after i played melee warloc
marble hemlock
😄
sudden ocean
970 fang is simming higher than a 950 Eye, but does that mean it's definitely a dps loss to use eye on single target
marble hemlock
trust the sim
strange python
cause that m ystic gets so far behind
and iend up blinding it
when its so far behidn the group
and getting back to it
it works out tho
just annoying
marble hemlock
its usually easier to just instantly interrupt it on both casts so it stay with his buddies
while the boomy rains down hell on them
strange python
probably right
sudden ocean
trust the sim
marble hemlock
when the sim says ssf is better than eoc for singletarget, and youre wondering whether that is actually the case, youre on a dark and lonely road
if we cant trust the sim anymore, who can we trust?
marble hemlock
because were rogues, were used to chatting while playing because we always had insane downtimes, but every few second you had to press a button
strange python
why do you have notifcations turned on for a class discord during last tier farm period is the better question? 
marble hemlock
thus leading to short lines
strange python
Y I K E Z
jovial kite
I dont have notifications
mossy hazel
Validate me! Did I do good boss?
jovial kite
dont know what made you think that
marble hemlock
i used to do that a lot back when IRC was still a thing
the short 2-5word lines, that eventually formed a sentence
jovial kite
just saying typing like that is pretty obnoxious
marble hemlock
no idea why
strange python
sorry it was the slight whiney tone i heard from your keyboard
jovial kite
wew
marble hemlock
@mossy hazel boss is dead, mom will be proud
jovial kite
im not
strange python
rogue discord not toxic
jovial kite
Just pointing out typing like that is obnoxious
spare cloud
strange python
jovial kite
marble hemlock
well, not to take anything away from him, but ilvl parses are pretty unimportant sadly
can have 180%mastery/30%crit with 952
or 150/20 and 15% haste
spare cloud
Or you could have 980 gear and just not wear boots or smth
marble hemlock
spare cloud
sudden ocean
wait I missed what people said about 970 fang simming higher than 950 eye
which do I use for single target
marble hemlock
i do too many HoVs this week, always logging out with elusiveness and cinidaria, now people constantly ask me why im not playing boots or bracers ><
the one the sim tells you is better for singletarget
strange python
lmao
marble hemlock
think about it Dingo, why do you sim for singletarget? to see which one is better. now you got the result, and you ask whether that is right. why even sim when you do not trust the results?
marble hemlock
wasnt meant to be offensive
just a fact
everyone always getting offended so easily 😦
strange python
Dingo
sudden ocean
Hi
sudden ocean
thanks, nice to get an answer that doesn't sound like it was typed by an angry mongoliod
strange python
LOL
marble hemlock
bulldog casting grandfinals, yikes
strange python
now that was offensive
sudden ocean
oops hehe
marble hemlock
well, ive been on the internet for a few years so im not offended easily
strange python
few?
spare cloud
Old fuck
marble hemlock
yeah 😦
sudden ocean
whoah badass, us oldfags
marble hemlock
im just old and in the way nowadays
strange python
@marble hemlock dota2 fan?
marble hemlock
someone take me out back and shoot me
marble hemlock
not really a fan, havent played in like a year or so
used to play semi-professionally at some point
strange python
same peaked at 6.5k and stopped playing
marble hemlock
so i still follow it from time to time
vestal wren
league > doto 😛
strange python
yah i saw Fly to mooon versus Liquid
was actually a really good series
whats the treshhold to call people old btw
i never knew
jovial kite
15
strange python
Miracle - Terrorblade 
spare cloud
12
strange python
understandable
marble hemlock
i always assumed people were old when they stop acting like kids
spare cloud
When do you ever stop acting like a kid
strange python
or boomkin
spare cloud
enhancer is fun tbh
lethal heart
@marble hemlock havent seen a single hov key this week PepeHands
vestal wren
imo wow is a old game
spare cloud
Like actually fun
marble hemlock
anyway dingo, im happy you got the answer you came here for
im just sad that i gave it to you, twice, and yet you wanted to hear it from someone else before you accepted it
strange python
he told you why
sudden ocean
please do NOT talk about me
marble hemlock
i accept a personal apology in form of a direct message, or transaction to my paypal account
strange python
you sound like mongoloid
marble hemlock
he never heard my voice though? 🤔
jovial kite
Wow
strange python
how do u know
jovial kite
He used perjorative for the guitar
spare cloud
dont use perjoratives
jovial kite
@marble hemlock You smell good when you sleep
marble hemlock
i genuinely do not know how to reply
strange python
thanks
marble hemlock
well played
mr. exsang
also still unsure whats mongoloid about "trust the sim", which was the first thing i said?!?
but whatever
spare cloud
How can something be "mongoloid"?
sudden ocean
the person not the advice was the mongoliod
jovial kite
Have you seen a legit mongolpid
marble hemlock
mongolpid sounds like a mix of a fierce horseman rider that mated with an octopus
jovial kite
pretty much
sudden ocean
jovial kite
but little less chromosomes
marble hemlock
well, you know what they say, its not the size or amount that matters, its how you use it
sudden ocean
how you use those extra chromosomes?
spare cloud
How do you work with less chromosomes
marble hemlock
i skipped biology after 10th grade, so im not all too sure on the mechanics