@vapid moth You cant pay people when you dont have a job 
#assassination
solid nova
mossy hazel
I'm the rogue officer for my guild
supple hearth
Lewd
mossy hazel
I'm also the only rogue
vapid moth
I can in discreet services
devout jolt
showing up to raids as as officer every week to just have people no show fucks me up hard
keen inlet
oh, exploitables
shrewd notch
can confirm, recruitment is the worst
vapid moth
Hehehehe
spare cloud
@keen inlet I have many of those of many mods
steep obsidian
maybe i scare them away
vapid moth
Bet @steep obsidian
frozen pecan
good one sabod lul
supple hearth
Rip
steep obsidian
you have to be more then just annoying to get banned
vapid moth
This is my 5th acc
steep obsidian
i should know
steep obsidian
its tom on another account
spare cloud
No
vapid moth
Tom and broad were my alternate accounts
primal tangle
Tom got banned?
vapid moth
It appears so
dire spoke
Using to many perjoratives
spare cloud
You triggered the perelman
echo estuary
If Tom would be allowed to return at Xaethrons expense, i'd say it would be an acceptable sacrifice
solid nova
Agreed
vapid moth
Lmao sure
echo estuary
Take one for the team Xaethron
spare cloud
I can agree on that
steep obsidian
also did a bunch of dungeons on beta before with mates
some of that stuff is goin to be brutal in +
steep obsidian
but they were all pretty fun
solid nova
@vapid moth Are you opted in?
vapid moth
You're not allowed to talk about it if not every in the room has access to it
I'm honestly not sure. I have to opt in?
solid nova
Yeah mate
steep obsidian
just about all my game friends got in bar like 2
spare cloud
steep obsidian
maybe they just lucky
vapid moth
Alright then I'll check it out
solid nova
I actually dont know many, if at all , who dont have beta now
dire spoke
I don't have beta
solid nova
spare cloud
cutting edge when?
dire spoke
vapid moth
Never at this rate 😦
echo estuary
When one don't have beta, he comes beta
spare cloud
Xaethron considering how good you are at the game
solid nova
@vapid moth Sell your body for a few weeks and just buy 11m gold and buy it
spare cloud
you could easily find a better guild
solid nova
Ez clap
spare cloud
to kill argus with
dire spoke
I should find a better guild
vapid moth
checks bank acc
dire spoke
trials not on argus farm
vapid moth
[Insert that laugh face]
spare cloud
Xaethron doesnt work
solid nova
7.5 MILLION
vapid moth
Imma bum
spare cloud
what do you do all day?
steep obsidian
i need to find a steady m+ group tbh my friends are too flakey
i dont have any fotm classes though
solid nova
@vapid moth Arent you still studying for exams and shit?
steep obsidian
😦
vapid moth
24 crédits for 300 bucks
fair rain
🤔
solid nova
Slacker 
steep obsidian
you could pug 2/11 by now surely
solid nova
You gonna be a joke if you fail blud
dire spoke
Well wait, I have a PTR login available but that's not it right?
spare cloud
Who studys for their finals nowadays?
twin meadow
this make sense to any of you bleedy bois?
spare cloud
Realtalk guys
fair rain
@supple hearth 👺
spare cloud
who studys for their school finals
supple hearth
@fair rain 
dire spoke
FeelsBetrayedMan
fair rain
🥄
vapid moth
Lol they are jokes
spare cloud
by that I mean read the questions twice
vapid moth
Always been jokes
spare cloud
to make sure i didn't missread
I failed at german
well I didn't
but german was my worst subject
always
vapid moth
Poems can be easily turned into bs
frozen pecan
mine aswell german sucks
primal tangle
-insert rogue stuff here-
vapid moth
What's a rogue
solid nova
A rouge***
steep obsidian
man is there anyone who raids at a decent level who thinks forcing personal loot is a good idea
i havent come across one
frozen pecan
I mean I'm Austrian, not that we can talk proper german anyway lul
spare cloud
I had german english math and 2 economics examns for my finals
vapid moth
I'm impartial to it
echo estuary
tisumi is a poetess, who would've known
shrewd notch
i like PL
solid nova
@vapid moth Good players****
vapid moth
Personal loot technically does give more loot than master
shrewd notch
we're mildly decent, progging M aggramar rn
spare cloud
but it all depends on from where you come from
shrewd notch
you're not good unless you're top 100 world some places 😛
steep obsidian
i guess
steep obsidian
you seem to be able to trade everything on beta
spare cloud
at raiding that is
steep obsidian
is that just a dungeon levelling thing i wonder
spare cloud
mythic+ is a different story
solid nova
Why would item level matter if you're only heroic raiding?
shrewd notch
preacher's recent vid on it actually had an interesting argument as to why they're doing it
solid nova
Give me the tldr
vapid moth
Some other system could still be implemented
cursive hatch
my issue is that there really is no reason to remove ML except removal of choice and to extend progression
shrewd notch
tl;dr many people who haven't really gotten into raiding are avoiding it b/c they perceive guilds as this corrupt cesspool where officers just take all the loot for themselves, so they want to incentivize more people to actually give raiding a go
steep obsidian
eww
cursive hatch
it doesn't fix splits in any way and just changes the composition of splits
cursive hatch
also, there ARE PL guilds around
spare cloud
despite having 4 chars of the same class
fair rain
Hello team I have returned
cursive hatch
one of the ones I'm considering is a PL guild
steep obsidian
@shrewd notch thats not true in the slighest though 😦
spare cloud
and 3 with other classes
shrewd notch
true or not true
spare cloud
for top guilds at least
solid nova
Sounds like some over dramatised casual opinion
spare cloud
It just fucks them over more
solid nova
"Officers take loot for themselves"
spare cloud
if you want to be competitive
drifting cloud
trials dont get loot 🤡
shrewd notch
right
spare cloud
the argument doesnt make sense
Like
casual guilds that have a fixed system and cant kill bosses
shrewd notch
so his argument was that, maybe, bliz is taking away ML in order to get more people to break into the guild raiding world
spare cloud
wont give trials more loot
shrewd notch
to see that it isn't as bad as they think
solid nova
Yeah but if a raiders worth his salt, the gear comes anyway
shrewd notch
it's a perception issue
cursive hatch
the thing is, IF officers take the loot
then you have the CHOICE to find a different guild
but that shit DOESN'T happen, because those guilds would collapse
its so frustrating
brisk forge
Lol, that happends, ppl are afraid to speak up
shrewd notch
it looks like it happens enough that many of the more casual people think it's super common
heroic only guilds and the like
cursive hatch
I mean, then the people in that guild need to leave or accept their terrible decisions
solid nova
Or maybe its just the casual guilds complaining
Because no one else has issues with it 🤷🏼
Or less issues*
cursive hatch
I guarantee you, 95% of the people complaining about ML
shrewd notch
most of the complaints are there yeah
solid nova
I mean
cursive hatch
because they don't use the system
solid nova
You dont join forums to praise a system you think works
shrewd notch
right that's the point, the people complaining don't actually experience it
cursive hatch
and aren't in a guild where they COUDL use the system
solid nova
Most join to complain
shrewd notch
and it scares them away from actually diving in
brisk forge
Wont change anything
shrewd notch
that doesn't solve the concerns of people who think guilds are corrupt
solid nova
It's such an extreme view though
cursive hatch
and requiring people to hand over PL items will?
solid nova
To say that
shrewd notch
it is, but it's really common apparently
whole threads full of people with that opinion
solid nova
From a play base that doesnt raid end game content
brisk forge
But PL can be a "nice" twist when ML has been the leading system for sooo long lol
trail heron
izzi, with PL; you can't force them to hand it over, however
trail heron
and if anything has the chance to be an upgrade for YOU, you get it. and no officer can feed the 50% parsing slut that sends nudes to said officer for a raid spot.
fair rain
Anyone
shrewd notch
with PL you can only be "forced" to hand something over if it isn't an ilvl upgrade anyway
steep obsidian
it also work the otehr way, the 50% parsing slut gets insane loot drops and the good player gets jack
cursive hatch
the thing is, you don't trade your PL loot
brisk forge
I think pl will cause so much more drama
cursive hatch
you aren't in the guild anymore
fair rain
This doesn’t seem very assassination based
cursive hatch
when you CAN'T trade it sure
but when its a piece that is more optimal but lower or equal ilvl
steep obsidian
nothing has been for the last few hours
steep obsidian
but like is dead channel better?
primal tangle
Loot council will go away with this
trail heron
sabod, but then, it is the system. not some dick driven officer, at least :p
steep obsidian
its not like we drowning out people wanting help or anything
trail heron
ask, and ye shall recieve
vapid moth
Loot is such bs
cursive hatch
personally, I'd love a systme similar to FF14s in wow
where you have a token system to guarantee incremental increases
vapid moth
Yes a token system would be awesome
cursive hatch
but I think a lot of the issue at heart, is that some people view loot as the reward
vapid moth
As long as you can't get loot from bosses you haven't killed
cursive hatch
for anyone doing actual mythic progression, its a tool and we just want to use the tools in the best way possible
not just throw them randomly around the room and hope for the best
trail heron
a combination of both
cursive hatch
PL only i guarantee you top 10 order will come down to some RNG because one raid group got all their PL shit on tanks and healers
trail heron
you could get items from bosses, under ML, that can WF and TF
cursive hatch
and now can't meet a dps check
spare cloud
They dont care about mythic progression
keen inlet
I'd encourage the ML/PL stuff to go to Off-topic please
spare cloud
They already said that
vapid moth
Seeing a nice piece of loot drop and watching it go to the person who barely benefits from it
keen inlet
(the change is awful btw)
cursive hatch
off topic moves too fast for me 😦 but okay
drifting cloud
next xpac "pl didnt work out as intended, we will just remove loot"
cursive hatch
I'm trying to keep up with discord okay!
fair rain
Hello team do any of you know who I am ?
trail heron
ryler, or xpac after BfA: 'due to whiny extreme raiders and equally whiny guild members from guilds who have no reason to use any loot council system, but still monkey-see-monkey-do anything from extreme raiders, we get rid of loot alltogether. have fun progressing for achievements only from now on, not even <grind resource>, gold or mounts from raiding anymore'
strange python
it rings a bell tumna
cursive hatch
pvp templates were a test
fair rain
cursive hatch
now applies to the entire game
drifting cloud
@trail heron just stick to the transmog channel ty
its like everyone forgot how they reverted the camera change
which was the same shitshow basically
strange python
tumna of notter and tumnas rogue guide?
vernal adder
The Tumna
fair rain
@keen inlet someone found out
strange python
but youre just a normal guy like the rest of use now :S
fair rain
Feelsretiredman
wise frigate
Who the hell are you?
echo estuary
i'm the guy who ate your salad
dire spoke
👀
wise frigate
trail heron
that can be misunderstood SO much....
wise frigate
Oh I understood it perfectly... ;)
keen inlet
Don't be TOX VdB
hoary copper
Rename to RudeButt
keen inlet
Voidbutt
Vdb
Vanilla Database
Voidbutt is sentient WoW Classic AI confirmed.
(And take this to #off-topic you toxxos)
wise frigate
No u
strange python
8 sec silence in pvp....come on now
trail heron
isn't being toxic the most appropriate in here? since well, assassination uses poison?
keen inlet
NO :all the angery:
zealous dew
and bleeds
spare cloud
hoary copper
so quiet today. deadspec confirmed
mossy hazel
Never!!
zealous dew
#spinningcranesick
spare cloud
Playing ffxiv
cursive hatch
I need to boost another job in ff14. Also got my sin wrists so I need to actually play this spec more
mossy hazel
I played that after the re-release, but I felt like so many of the zones were too similar
spare cloud
Well I'm having fun with it atm
learning the speccs is fun
exciting for endgame bosses
mossy hazel
I thought it was pretty fun, just couldn't stay invested enough to stay with it past lvl 30ish
spare cloud
Yeah well the game basically doesn't start until you're like 50+
class gameplay wise
mossy hazel
Think I was playing a guardian?
mossy hazel
Was a fun tank spec I was enjoying
hoary copper
I didnt really quest much I did the little uh....what is it...run around killing things then go to the next floor? that thing
hoary copper
yea, its easiest
spare cloud
On my samurai
I'm playing samurai and black mage atm
doing main story as black mage
trail heron
endgame bosses in ffxiv, aka 'get hit by ANYTHING, ded'
spare cloud
Don't mind that
hoary copper
blm was pretty fun, I had most my classes at 60 ( I think the max was) I dont think I got to 70 on anyone but close on drg and rdm.
spare cloud
at least not with raid sizes that small
hoary copper
least with smn you get a heal class at max level too
trail heron
tbh, what is called 'raid' is more like mythic dungeons, mechanics wise
spare cloud
I'm not sure if I should go melee or range yet
So I'll go for samurai and blm first
then see which fits me best
trail heron
bruen, that is nerfed alongside SMN, whenever SMN gets stuff removed as the price for some gimmick
spare cloud
I'll probably stick to samurai though
then level a ninja and a monk
they seem the most fun melee speccs from what I've seen
trail heron
(ie, ability to heal the pets taken away, or the aoe taken away, as price for demi-bahamut)
hoary copper
smn was strong for a bit then the new stuff they were pretty terrible feeling
mnk is fun, its rotation is one of the easier
cursive hatch
I want to boost a Bard. I love the job and its really in demand, so might as well level and gear that as well
though BLM is super fun right now, just not as in demand.
hoary copper
I miss ffxi bards where you were heals and support
spare cloud
Just because nobody talks with you there you dont need to force us
hoary copper
If we didnt talk about something it would be a dead channel, see we are keeping it alive!
cursive hatch
Someone go check my sin logs and tell me how terrible I am then, that's on topic
spare cloud
Post
cursive hatch
Have fun, I have no idea what I'm doing
but I also needed sin logs because apparently people want rogues to play it now?
hoary copper
!singuide
chrome tuskBOT
Assassination guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
cursive hatch
Hey, I'm an outlaw main. I'm not regemming everything until I have what I need for sin 😛
which now that I got wrists, I should probably just do that
spare cloud
Your relics are alright
cursive hatch
OH WAIT SHIT
my sin gear has my 945 trinket
fucking rofl
I hae a 960 SSW + vers gem
I need to update that
spare cloud
No fang?
cursive hatch
nope
hoary copper
scourgewing isnt that great
spare cloud
cursive hatch
I've extended on argus for 2.5 months
spare cloud
no EoC?
cursive hatch
nope
spare cloud
dire spoke
@cursive hatch https://snag.gy/M0lFId.jpg
steep obsidian
73 traits what a slacker
spare cloud
was wondering for a sec where the last trait was
cursive hatch
Yeah, i'm like 3b from 74. I'll have 75 this week
I just legit never played sin because why would I when I top 10 as SND
steep obsidian
like i said slacker 😛
cursive hatch
I've extended on Argus for 2.5 months, you thnk I play this game?
steep obsidian
you proving my point!
cursive hatch
I avoid this game unless I'm raiding
spare cloud
2.5m on argus
steep obsidian
see!
spare cloud
🤔
steep obsidian
slacker
fair rain
cursive hatch
Yeah, I need to break the habit of vanishing on cd and setup for it
I'm guessing I can delay TB slightly to make sure I have energy
fair rain
@void pecan
cursive hatch
I mean, any delays add up quickly lol
spare cloud
You have 25 seconds per fight to spare
cursive hatch
I was mostly just making sure I kept virulent poisons rolling. Probably need to focus less on that and more on proper TB setup
fair rain
25 seconds 
spare cloud
cursive hatch
theoretically, but any delays can also end up pushing a TB off the back end of the fight
you can't really plan on it
but it can happen
spare cloud
Yeh ofc
dire spoke
just tell everyone to dmg stop
cursive hatch
my plan was basically, try to remember not to rupture during TB, and just use TB on CD and roll the 2pc as much as possible
spare cloud
You can do that while also getting 2+ envenoms into every TB
With slight delays, might drop 2pc a few secs before tb
cursive hatch
Yeah, I was focusing on the 2pc too much. Felt like I was really short on energy sometimes outside of KB
and now without helm, that will feel even more energy starved, so just need to focus on TB more
could also be my crit, I think I have 33%? Should be fine but idk, I don't play sin much
dire spoke
with ~35% crit you can clip like 3-4 envenoms and need to pool a little after
fervent beacon
I just TBonCD
cursive hatch
god I'm really annoyed that my bad trinket is in my sins gear
Shows how much I play sin
steep obsidian
its weird that you never picked up a decent stat stick or fang or eoc or anything
but i guess you have to play the game for that 😮
cursive hatch
all the fangs went to our sin rogues
or DKs
also no EOC's on this guy, just got them on my DK
You know, if we did farm content my weapon would easily be 76+ by now, but man, extending that long takes it out of you
we killed Coven once, extended to kill Agg ( played blood dk for that), then extended from there to work on Argus
dire spoke
sounds like my old guild 
to shitty to handle a proper reclear, now I'm a shitty trial due to total kills
cursive hatch
now that I'm not doing that I'm playing a lot more. Played quite a bit this weekend actually when I wasn't filling out applications
steep obsidian
ive never been in a guild that extended unless a kill was close
wanton tartan
I was so hoping someone was actually in here on voice....new to this rogue thing and Id really like to pick someones brain for a bit
steep obsidian
but this expac is diff though
cursive hatch
I wanted to clear farm after 250+ wipes to p1/p2
steep obsidian
i guess
cursive hatch
the fight isn't a dps check by any means now with the nerf, but god I just wanted to do something else
steep obsidian
we always killed bosses to unlock the skips
dire spoke
@wanton tartan if you have questions that can't be answered by the pinned guide or tooltips, feel free to hand them to the 15k users here
steep obsidian
isnt farm a shit show when you go back to it after finally killing boss :
youd forget how to do most of it hehe
cursive hatch
I think thats why my GM didn't want to do farm
wanton tartan
well I have never played a rogue...well really played a rogue
cursive hatch
didn't want to have to re teach people immonar and stuff
steep obsidian
i always figured that doing farm efficiently is just part of prog part of the reason why idiots padding and wiping on farm annoyed me so much in some guilds
wanton tartan
and since I got my silly beta invite Ive been messing with him
well him being the premade rogue I made
echo estuary
are you really Irish though
wanton tartan
lol @fair rain
steep obsidian
i mean if you like beta sin you prolly like live sin better its a bit more complex and interactive then beta
dire spoke
Well play your toon to 110 first then, maybe watch rogue PoV and read up resources
wanton tartan
not usre if I will get stabbed since this is the ass. room but sub looks awesome,....I just cant seem to get that dance window working smoothly it seems
well not really any sense playing my legion rogue right when I can play the one on beta
dire spoke
wanton tartan
why does that bother you
Id just have to relearn it right? plus Ive leveled too many 110s already lol
dire spoke
What are you here for then?
wanton tartan
Ive been watching some vids on YT...hazzed and dalaran
anyone else who makes good rogue videos?
lone junco
@gusty kestrel have you done any of the heroic 5mans on beta yet? if so, how is Sin aoe comparing with the mother fucking IMPLOSION spec
trail heron
good it is implosion, and not EXplosion. because there is no megumin transmog for leather...
lone junco
the normal runs I did on moonkin, had Demo 4x above every other class.
wanton tartan
@dire spoke to learn about the class on beta...suggested builds and any tips that might help out...like I said that why I was hoping there was someone I could talk to about it
steep obsidian
infexious does sin rogue guides and vids i think i havent watched them so i have no idea how good they are
wanton tartan
its easier to communicate the issues that way..and especially if someone else on beta can watch what Im doing and see what Im screwing up lol
dire spoke
there is no resource for beta because nobody cares about an unfinished game
I'm sorry ):
wanton tartan
well zempai legion is over
hoary copper
Be nice Zempai
wanton tartan
so I dont plan on learning the spec on live jsut to relearn it again with changed talents and new gcd
steep obsidian
yeah everything on beta can change at the drop of a hat and number tuning is one of the last things they do, only when that done do the theorycrafters get serious
doing it before that is kinda of a waste of time
cursive hatch
right now the spec isn't worth learning
steep obsidian
atm it sjust play around and see how things play together
cursive hatch
because it can change a huge amount from now, depending on system changes
You can get an idea for which specs/classes you like on beta, but I wouldn't put any time into learning them
steep obsidian
i mean the core kit won't change
dumb things like venom rush not working with dispatch might get fixed though
cursive hatch
it won't, but tuning, talent passes, and such will affect things a lot
steep obsidian
or that talent might
wanton tartan
ok thanks...Ill read the faq and check out infexious..thanks for your time peoples 😃
dire spoke
You're welcome 💪🏻 ❤
spare cloud
You're not gonna find resources from trusted members of the community about until the classes are close to final
In forms of guides etc. that is
lone junco
CT is nice. therefore it will be nerfed.
spare cloud
flawless logic
lone junco
Hopes and dreams will be crushed. Pretty constant.
spare cloud
There are no hopes and dreams for bfa already
can't crush them if they ceased to exist already
mossy hazel
You guys don't like the haste buff for sin? There's hope there, isn't there?
spare cloud
Not about sin in particular
Loot changes suck
slower gameplay in general sucks
expansion theme is not the greatest either
spare cloud
gtfo
mossy hazel
Yea, the loot rules aren't going to effect me much at all, but I still need to see how the gcd changes feel
spare cloud
I just think the direction wow is taking is utter bullshit
mossy hazel
Personal or Master, I'm still never going to get loot. Lol
mossy hazel
I've seen a lot that for most classes, the gcd change isn't really that bad, it just takes some adjustment
mossy hazel
Hence "most classes" Lol. I know fury got absolutely fucked
hoary copper
I think it hit melee harder than caster
winter moss
so its not worth to play around sot? just keep envenom up aslong as possible?
placid rapids
I'm not really bugged by the gcd changes, then again I'm planning on rocking Outlaw for BfA and on beta Outlaw doesn't seem affected by the gcd changes at all.
winter moss
read a while ago in this channel and i never wasted athought to this
hoary copper
I havent thought of what to main yet in bfa
kinda waiting for it to be closer to choose
winter moss
kept playing around sot and everything was fine
trail heron
by the way, didn't they plan to make 'less ranged mobs, but those who are in, they tear you a new one', for dungeons?
placid rapids
I've done one dungeon so far and for Under-rot, it's about 60/40 split melee/ranged. The ranged mobs are a bit more dangerous.
So could be worth thinking of CCing ranged mobs in dungeons for bfa
hoary copper
Having to use CC again
placid rapids
lol queue the casual tears
vapid moth
o.o
placid rapids
I mean for normal, you can more or less do dungeons as they are currently, but one thing I did notice is while a tank can get aggro on them. They don't mindlessly run up to the tank to start shooting again like they do right now.
Ranged mobs actively try to keep distance from melee kinda like the dryads in DHT
fair rain
@lone junco
trail heron
i'd love to be required to sap/blind/bribe mobs again......the main issue that people have a 20 inch long hardon for cleave aoe and mindlessly adding aoe 'because it is a wasted cooldown otherwise'
mossy hazel
I miss needing to CC in dungeons
trail heron
hell, if i designed a dungeon? i'd take a book out of FUNCOMs design specs
steep obsidian
well the whole "get enough agro on 30 mobs then run 40 yards away while everyrone else kills them" meta while sorta fun probably wasnt what they wanted m+ to be forever
trail heron
a whole room having, say, 5 mobs in them, maybe
hoary copper
yea having to CC in vanilla made it a little more interesting because of mobs that would eat your face
steep obsidian
you can bribe the same mob warlocks enslave in arcway btw
trail heron
however, those 5 mobs, if pulled together, WILL turn the group to filet mignon
steep obsidian
i did that very early this expac a few times
strange python
gear scaling made it the meta though tbf
trail heron
so either you split the pull in 2, which is very easy to do
strange python
early on it was at least much harder, sans the boat pull on maw
trail heron
or you had a blood heal based tank.
steep obsidian
yeh true
trail heron
now, imagine 5 mobs in a room that previously housed 30, in wow
and those 5 mobs have the combined HP pool and damage output of those 30 mobs
strange python
playing fire on that pull was so fun
placid rapids
Also another big thing I noticed during the dungeon run is the MUCH lower self-healing/durability of tanks.
mossy hazel
I like that
trail heron
which means you can not whittle them down as fast to the point where the incoming damage drops down enough to be manageable.
strange python
i feel like thats somewhat of a bad way to go, its just going to push people to stack slows and stuns and continue to kite
mossy hazel
I litearlly have the m+ invitational video paused right now and the DH tank is keeping pace with the holy pally in terms o fheals. I feel that's just ridiculous
trail heron
not, in that game, mobs also had a mechanic against CC. if you hit with 3 'hinder' (slow) or 'impair' (root. but both interrupted), the mob became immune to either for 45 seconds
strange python
actually i was replying to strype
steep obsidian
i was wondering why the dungeons sorta felt hard on beta then realsied they took the scaling buff out so we all undergeared like hell
placid rapids
Yeah DH and DK self-healing is getting straight up rekt in BfA
strange python
that blows because it just means meta is going to probably be stacking slows and kiting
something like HoV
mossy hazel
I kind of like the blood dk healing as it at least makes some sense in terms of the spec, but it's still way too high
steep obsidian
its funny how they leave dh and dk in the state they are for so long
but warriors were a little bit op in en and insta nerf
trail heron
well, with DH, wasn't the thing that they pretty much relied on selfheal, due to way lower mitigation from leather?
trail heron
but from my DH tank, well, yes, spirit bomb is silly
placid rapids
Even DH dps self-healing got nerfed big time on thier meta cd
trail heron
not only does it heal a ton from auto-sucking in TONS of shards
steep obsidian
they nerfed spirit bomb at the start of this raid
it was utterly retarded before then not just op as hell
trail heron
(which can trigger meta)
strange python
i think dk didnt get nerfed because they dont know what to do with them
if you nerf their self heals you may aswell be tanking as a fury warrior
trail heron
but it also puts leech debuff on everyone hit
placid rapids
That said I'm glad rogues aren't getting many changes. I'm eager to see the final forms of the azurite armor pieces and how those will affect things. So when the pre-patch comes out things will still feel similar
mossy hazel
I love sin, but I'm definitely interested in trying outlaw. I might try getting that weapon up and playing with that for a bit
hoary copper
Remember how awful DH was at the start tho and spikey they were?
vapid moth
Outlaw is fun I must say
I got sub gloves yesterday as well so I'll be trying that out
trail heron
it felt a chore in outland, thus, i played to 80 using sub
but with pandaria gear, outlaw was love again
but i want a dagger spec, too. and sub felt.....well, shackled due to being built around stealth
mossy hazel
I always enjoyed "combat" before the talent tree changes
trail heron
back during the BC era, i hated the 'can't do shit with nearly all builders due to being stuck to daggers, or to behind
so at the end of the day, for solo, you pretty much either hopped around the enemy like an autist as you blew your whole CC palette per single mob, to get the backstabs in
or you went with sinister strike and were done with it
Autist referring to 'internet autist', not the actual disease as long as it is diagnosed by an actual legitimate doctor
grim schooner
any reason to use boots over shoulders at M argus?
cursive hatch
As someone not super familiar with Sin, I'm guessing it depends with how everything lines up. The additional Vendettas could provide a bigger benefit than the burst from shoulders. Someone more knowledgeable may need to chime in though, as I'm not sure how well boots vs non boots vendetta lines up with the modules or other mechanics on Argus
plain thistle
@grim schooner because its a long fight, boots will allow you to use vendetta more times during the encounter
and you dont want to drop bracers because execute on argus is super important
trim dirge
Simming your fight duration on Argus helps instead of the base 5min to decide if the boots are better
cosmic prism
how much better are wrists than boots for sin leggos?
dire spoke
you best should simulate that on your own toon
there is no BiS in Legion - you can tell by the illustrated builds one can find on herodamage.com
steep obsidian
@grim schooner I believe one reason to use use boots over shoulders in M argus because you can save vanish to break chains if you do that
grim schooner
i see
hoary copper
wrists are pretty good, boots are also good. Depends on the fight length and fight itself @cosmic prism
cursive hatch
I might try out the boots. Hard to do though when I don't have a good shoulder off piece and I have 980 boots
cosmic prism
@hoary copper thanks 😃
hoary copper
Can always 
to see what the best combo is
vapid moth
finally did a +19
solemn spoke
how much dps icnrease you guys think the t21 4 set is over t20 2 set?
tranquil birch
^ short answer is quite a bit though
especially factoring in the ilvl differences
plain thistle
but is true, the dps increase will depends on your toon
solemn spoke
yea i just wanted to know if worth stressin over not exact dps xD
drifting cloud
t21 4set is huge for assa
plain thistle
yeah, T21 is super good for us, T20 2p is quality of life and also a dps increase
dire spoke
Why not use both
plain thistle
but the ilvl is a factor too
placid egret
2p t20 isn't worth a lot. I think 2 pieces that were worth 10 ilvl each out simmed it. Specifically in st.
flint pelican
2 pc is only worth anything on multitarget in cobination with the t20 4 pc
lost horizon
Nah with high ilvl you can do extremely well in st with 4+2
plain thistle
the better answer it to sim, im still using T20 2p and I have a shoulder which is 40 ilvl higher and a gloves that is 5 ilvl higher
they dont sim better 🤷
lilac lily
Guys, If I have blood of the assassinated proc'd should I wait for Rupture to drop completely before reapplying it?
plain thistle
blood is a debuff on the target, it increase the rupture damage by 100%
doesn't matter that isn't the same rupture that applied that debuff
so you can re apply rupture without any problem and the debuff will be there for the new rupture too
@lilac lily
dire spoke
help
plain thistle
I know some guys that play around blood playing with exsanguinate, but I personally play poison and I dont even track blood of the assassinated
dire spoke
my discord is all zoomed in
lilac lily
Ah, good to know. It's just sometimes I see some rogues keep track of blood of the assassinated procs and I had no idea why
@plain thistle Exactely why I asked
plain thistle
i guess what can happen is that the new rupture can also apply blood on the target, which can lead into a wasted duration. 🤷
lilac lily
Thought maybe pandemic had something to do with it
plain thistle
not worth to play around that
lilac lily
Yeah, anyway, thank you for clarifying that!
plain thistle
np 😛
dire spoke
you're welcome
flint pelican
@lost horizon which is why t20 2pc is virtually nonexistent on high ranked ST parses in M antorus, because of how good it is ST. But I do suppose if you live in Magical Christmas land and you happen to have two 960 t20 pieces lying around you can give it a whirl.
plain thistle
sorry to disappoint you , but thats not the reason you dont see T20 2p on high ranks
lone junco
I love to disappoint.
civic palm
960 isn't even that magical christmas land.
plain thistle
its simply because mythic fights now are short, and shoulder on short fight can lead to incredible luck with poison bomb during shoulder
I still have some good ranks using T20 2p
short fights = shoulders even better
lost horizon
@flint pelican look up jhonwei's logs
civic palm
and PBOMB obliterates short parses.
plain thistle
but yeah, not a lot of ppl run with T20 on top logs, I agree with that
lone junco
People get a boner for that shoulder bomb. Even if it is a lower avg.
plain thistle
I had a lot of parses with rank 1-5, but now its really hard to get them again, shorter fights dont favor me 😦
flint pelican
I'm not just talking about like the top 5-10 logs, I'm talking nowhere even in the top 200, where there are plenty of non-PB logs. For that matter there are plenty of logs using boots and bracers. That's a different discussion. Boots and bracers are fine. The issue is t20 is just not worth giving up ilvl and perfect secondaries over for pure ST, and that shows.
Earlier in the tier it made sense but at this point you're giving up 970+ items in those slots more than likely.
civic palm
20t2p also makes sense on fights where you can multi-dot without much movement.
flint pelican
Which was my original statement
You're still talking about a bonus that's worth about a half a percent for ST and maybe 3-4% on exactly 2 targets. It's not worthless if you have comparable ilvl pieces and can get it at a low oppurtunity cost, but overall its still one of the weakest set bonuses ever.
placid egret
You also need to get mythic ilvl t20 shoulders. Which no pug will ever do. And no guild I know still run tos for that stuff.
Gloves shoulders. You cant just get a good t20 helm cause the stats are also so abysmal.
spare cloud
shoulders chest
flint pelican
gloves and chest are pretty comparable
placid egret
Oh yeah. Chest is mastery crit huh
placid egret
Also true.
flint pelican
gloves are also a lot easier to get
mythic harjatan can pretty much be zerged at current ilvls
turbid harbor
flint pelican
you right, zolbar, my bad
flint pelican
gloves and shoulders is probably optimal when considerring stats on both sets, although i'm sure chest and shoulders is fine if you get a good TF on the chest etc.
you're basically trading haste and mastery for crit
that's really crude napkin math, if someone wants to really calculate it go for it
flint pelican
what about them?
lone junco
End of expac content is the most important. As we all know.
flint pelican
hey, prepatch is the best time in an expac
legion prepatch is the strongest assassination has ever been... for a week until exsanguinate was nerfed
RIP
flint pelican
I would assume haste/mastery is going to be the way though
probably something like haste > mastery >= crit > versa
lone junco
1.4 sec tick rates.
flint pelican
the real question is what talents do we take at 15 and 90
lone junco
Lust me to .8. Exang to .5
naive cypress
Noobe breaking meta before meta begins
flint pelican
what ilvl are beta toons?
flint pelican
gross
dire spoke
I like how we will see 2k crits again
civic palm
:3
strange python
cata levels of HP inc'
dire spoke
miz 
frosty elk
nice memory
civic palm
:3
void pecan
OwO
flint pelican
(O_O)
flint pelican
10k shadowbolts OP when people have 5k hp
strange python
reading mmo-c, are the changes in the new build balance changes aswell?
civic palm
What do you mean by that?
strange python
looks like damage % changes if im not reading it wrong
Outlaw Rogue Increases damage/healing by 42%
just an excerpt
strange python
its on all classes
cursive hatch
probably tuning adjustments or just crap picked up in data mining
civic palm
Yeah considering these kinds of posts are basically raw.
Could be anything.
Looks like a lot of tooltip changes.
Shit like -
WAY more flowery language.
Jeezus Blizzard
uhhuh
strange python
just think thats some unlucky fuckers job
civic palm
Tech. writers exist for this specific reason :3
IIRC those jobs do not cross over in a larger company.
Looks like Warriors got some stuff though.
strange python
Blade In The Shadows (New) When you Shadowstrike and reach 4 or more Combo Points, deal 0 additional damage.
civic palm
_>
strange python
speak for yourself im tired of my feral looking like a scrotum in the water
civic palm
I want dolphin mode > _>
strange python
goremaw's bite is a spell that got buffed in the build, maybe itll be a talent
civic palm
HMMMMMMMMMMMMM
gaunt moat
@civic palm keep that to off-topic please
civic palm
Some of that could be on-topic for assassination in BFA, not the warrior bits of course.
or... the... Dolphin... part.
strange python
lmfao
civic palm
Look if we could theme the Discord window to look like something assassination related this wouldn't happen... so frequently.
strange python
a large poison bomb
civic palm
It's annoying because you can totally use an imagine as your background, but it's a hacky method.
and I do not wanna fuck with it.
strange python
the awarding 0 cp for shuriken storm is interesting
i know its essentially just a word dumb
dump*
so it could mean nothing
strange python
i find it interesting that classes are getting spec-wide buffs though
was tuning just that far off or are the actually trying to tune without all talents
civic palm
Nothing is complete at this point, so it's just all of the teams trying to get things complete, class changes updated, tooltips sent to the DB people and writers, etc.
If it looks like things that don't make sense that's because they're not meant to make sense, just people doing work.
strange python
yeah. its all compartmentalized and such but it does make for some weird datamining
heavy plover
Small indie company anyone?
alpine pier
balmy onyx
!talents
supple hearth
@balmy onyx those can be found in the guide
balmy onyx
right, found themn there, thanks
sage turtle
How much Mastery should i have, before going poison over bleed?
strange python
I've seen the changes to ass rogue on beta, what do you guys think of them?
vapid moth
@sage turtle if you're asking that question then you should already be going poison
sage turtle
What do you mean @vapid moth
orchid prawn
exang is harder to play, so asking a question answered in the guide in the pins assumes you have not read it - and should probably stick to poison
wise frigate
Also a question that can be answered via sims.
vapid moth
Not to forget that bleed build has little to do with your actual mastery values and more about your crit and gear sets
strange python
@plain thistle
strange python
no
vapid moth
Meh. Fuck raiding tonight
strange python
@sage turtle the other bleedybois are afk
basically if you dont have fairly good t20 2p, boots, and 3x MAss you might aswell just play poison
otherwise its going to feel worse than poison
strange python
you cant do it all at once
naive cypress
For some stupid reason
strange python
i slowly got all of it and then made the swap
naive cypress
You kept them in bags?
vapid moth
YOu can keep it in void storage
naive cypress
Right
strange python
but you also can take quite a hit in ilvl and still Mass is on top
i think i dropped 40 weapon ilvl and still went up in dps
and with high enough offpieces you dont need t20 but it isnt the same spec
in my feelycraft experience you need a bit more haste without t20
desert orchid
where does the insignia of ravenholdt rank in terms of legendaries?
plain thistle
hmmm, sometimes around the fourth best?
naive cypress
Sim it
plain thistle
shoulder-bracer-boots are better
naive cypress
For some it can be bis
plain thistle
sim it, but its probably bracer+insignia for single
plain thistle
in your case
desert orchid
do we have a level where crit outweighs mastery for poison build?
plain thistle
it does for me, but I play with boots+bracer with T20 2p and T21 4p
plain thistle
T21 increase the crit value, shoulder decrease crit value, and you also need to consider how much crit you already have, its always better to sim
dont think too much about that 😂
naive cypress
Alac pls
plain thistle
boots+insignia alacrity build 😂
naive cypress
Wheelchairing to the max
plain thistle
♿
wise frigate
dire spoke
boosted bonobo
lone junco
@gusty kestrel Im feeling the Beta outlaw.
had some packs at 9k dps. which is pretty high so far.
cursive hatch
Thats pretty good since the highest I've seen warlock being broken is 30k
cursive hatch
its because of the orc racial being broken and them using demo's high damage
yeah
orc racial gives Legion numbers to spell power
lone junco
thats funny
well not really
but that explains why a lock was dumpstering me
on my moonkin
cursive hatch
shaman can do similar things with the orc racial from what ive heard
cursive hatch
it felt alright with alacrity and the aoe dash thing
lone junco
mark /snd is nice for leveling.
cursive hatch
LD, alacrity, and SND being in the same tier is super dumb though
since you need LD and alacrity to make SND viable
lone junco
and that AR is so far apart. the 2b is a joke.
I was mark rolling off trash.
mark snd is nice as well.
not sure what will be good, but mark is what I enjoy from outlaw the most.
cursive hatch
we'll see if SND is able to be worth it in any way
because before LD was put into the artifact and SND got buffed it was worth less than not taking a talent
lone junco
im using it for the questing.
cursive hatch
as in, not taking a talent was more dps than taking snd and using it
lone junco
anyway. pooling 2bf, and a blade rush for a fat pack is ok.
base line hook is nice. I would never take double hook tho
civic palm
What else is on that tier? Still Acro. Strikes and movespeed?
lone junco
yeah
civic palm
Yeah no thanks, gimme dat range.
civic palm
Right
lone junco
NOT ALL CHESTS GET THE AZURITE
lol
i looted a blue from 5man, no pyramid
wtf
civic palm
bug report?
lone junco
dunno. it was a boss drop.
just agi/sta.
I was surprised I couldnt check the traits, before trading it away. So i equipped it. nope. just blue.
👎
civic palm
Need to learn about adding "lights" in GIMP hmmm
cursive hatch
about the only time I'd take 30 sec hook would be something like solo doing Vari marks with it. Outside of that, you can work around 1 min hook just fine
but having Acro strikes + hook is awesome. I always preferred hook but acro is too good to pass up at times
supple hearth
Hello I want beta
Tyyyyy
Which specs have you tried/ are you liking so far
I just want to see what PvP feels like tbh
void pecan
Ahem..
oh
god damnit
You right.
tbh it'll probably feel worse than this xpac though.
with GCD stuff
vapid moth
No one talks about class shit anymore doe. Not like it matters
Well. Legion class shit
final river
where i find informations about bfa?
lone junco
I was mark rolling Tb /2.
seems good
@gusty kestrel yeah, Im down with the bf/KS as well. very nice. and good single
cursive hatch
Ive had to listen to rogues complain that their death was from KS, now I get to be on the receiving end
steep obsidian
i actually bound a cancel killing spree macro to my cloak of shadows
for those times when you accidentally ks into the poo
fervent beacon
@lone junco Yeah I have a feeling that those azerite pieces will be the 'tier' level for raid.
for most part anyway, at least better traits probably.
civic phoenix
!singuide
chrome tuskBOT
Assassination guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
jovial kite
send halp
spring pagoda
So pro tip to people doing the mage tower, leeching poison is an active buff and not a passive ability, hah
One shot the stupid thing after I realized that
onyx falcon
So i did an upper 18 for fun n to help a guildie out for a 15 weekly..... Pulled all the mana worms....
zealous dew
dat rat dmg
jagged yoke
in assassination do you still need to do the thing where u envenom right at the last second of master poisoner?
steep obsidian
you mean sot?
the guide is up to date anyway you should read it in the pins and up top
trail heron
[Pin-checking Intensifies]
night vale
From the guide:
"Garrote
tier 20 2set – reapply at 5.4 seconds (or lower) remaining on the existing garrote
no tier 20 2set – cooldown extends maximization window on ST, reapply whenever suitable without dropping"
Does this mean i can extend Garotte whenever without T20 and duration will stack?
night vale
well i dont get it then? cause why would it make a difference if you had T20 or not? surely if the dot is 18 seconds, then you can refesh any time when there's 5.4 secs or less remaining?
warm parcel
that sentence =/= what you said earlier
spare cloud
t20 is important for subterfuge vanish refreshes
night vale
yeah just cause "...reapply whenever suitable without dropping" suggests you dont have to wait till 5.4 seconds or less remaining
warm parcel
that pandemic is the suitable range