@gaunt moat you could be right. I'm pretty certain you are more right than I am. I just meant I'd probably try it to see if I hate it or not..then review your guides and think "yeah that makes more sense"
#assassination
gaunt moat
the more crit you have the worst it gets though...
strange python
Probably will. I also have to play with blindside though I have a feeling MP is still going to be a good choice
stark heart
Crit soft cap lul
steep obsidian
that all depends on tuning and wahtever azurite crap we get
gaunt moat
i think the only possible use for it is for world quests
strange python
it’s going to be interesting. i wonder why they went with 50% crit for 3s instead of doing 100% for 3s and tuning the other talents accordingly
gaunt moat
i don't think we will ever use it in raid
steep obsidian
yeah 100% for 3 secs would probably be worth
strange python
makes the talent easier to balance than a flat 50 for 3/4/5s or w/e the final numbers are
stark heart
Talents have power level as well
gaunt moat
even with 100% i doubt is worth, in this current state
stark heart
They should be in x% increase ballpark
gaunt moat
that being said, rupture can't proc BotA, so that hurts vanish rupture potential a bit
strange python
MA could be good for burst in BGs. Again as sabod said. Depends on Azurite power.
strange python
gaunt moat
who are you
stark heart
Imagine haste being bis stat for Assa
pale zodiac
@stark heart🤔
strange python
@stark heart isn't that what infectious said
viscid helm
who
strange python
could be fun to play haste assa with exsang
viscid helm
no
turbid harbor
😄
viscid helm
exsang doesnt make to much sense with haste affecting bleeds
cant see it being taken over other 2
unless something is changed
gaunt moat
not to mention it doesn't align with vendetta and there's no BotA affect
viscid helm
ye that
stark heart
Just hold ven for 15 seconds lul
gaunt moat
strange python
with haste affecting bleeds doesn’t it just shorten duration
doesn’t add another rock correct
tick^^
strange python
oof
viscid helm
🍝
strange python
rip
my thoughts about exsang were with high haste tick time is already low so the exsang damage happens even faster. could be cool for like prio add damage
completely feely tho since i can’t actively test it.
strange python
venom rush being in that row is annoying
stark heart
You can apply the same to tb - debuff duration is constant but more poison ticks fit in
strange python
true enough
viscid helm
bringbackAlacrity
strange python
is beta sin like twice as slow as live sin?
vestal wren
not that bad
strange python
energy regen at least at a glance seems like it would be rough
vestal wren
but the gameplay flow is still there
viscid helm
u just smash
vestal wren
it does not feel awefull to play
strange python
i know its another beginning of the expac thing so all classes are going to be naturally slower without the secondaries but from what ive watched they seem centered around slowing down gameplay, from the GcD changes to the energy regen things of most energy regen classes
being shuffled around
lament void
Hows poison build for mythic+, leveled a rogue but I don't really like sub too much
regal cape
But haste scaling on bleeds counteracts energy regen being lower
strange python
harksa its fine up until you're pushing really high, though it is super frustrating to not get a pb for 3 packs
marble hemlock
supple hearth
@lament void it's great on bosses and RNG on trash. It's viable though
marble hemlock
okay boys, i hope NLC loves me
strange python
jesus
mossy hazel
Why is regen inherently slow on beta?
mossy hazel
Fair enough
strange python
Just low crit?
supple hearth
That was a huge complaint at legion launch was how slow it was
It's just not surprising to me lol
strange python
Would think with better ven wounds and mutilate cost reduction it is better
supple hearth
It usually gets better
strange python
and no kingsbane which is one less thing to spend energy on
mossy hazel
Considering how long I've actually been playing, it's really surprising to me that this is probably the first expansion I'm actaully going to be activwe for the launch
so a lot of this "beta analysis" is new to me
strange python
oof
unreal coyote
i have a 985 that crucibleweight shows upgrade but it sims way lower
nlc is the best gaiz!
strange python
wait for azerite gear to be the same hehexd
But azerite gear doesnt titanforge
im sure somehow we'll end up farming uldir for 3 tiers
viscid helm
112112112
unkempt frost
hard gust
pandemic
which i believe is like 30% of the duration
but if it's nightstalker empowered you let it run out before you re-apply
ideally without having any downtime
strange python
rup 7.2 garrote 6 sec
peak yarrow
!guide
strange python
vernal adder
tepid ridge
what's the difference between poison and bleed builds I would give bleed a try
I know the 3x mass but what about the stats priority?
sharp viper
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/199945124132814848/438756838243041280/2Q.png raid leader got this on his dh alt 
marble hemlock
nice
tepid ridge
.............XD
jovial kite
if he ever gets in this discord
i hope the mods have the decency to instaban him without questions or trial
sharp viper
he taunts me with it cause i am still farming for a high ilvl eoc
and he just gets 985 from the weekly cache
sharp viper
bb>mass
tepid ridge
bb>mass always ?
spare cloud
@sharp viper You sure about that?
Even if I would drop to 2 mass 
No he's trolling egii
vernal adder
pk is bugged again so use that over anything else
spare cloud
vernal adder
but what do I know I dont even play anymore
marble hemlock
wat, pk bugged again?
scarlet hawk
On sims I gain about 12k dps by equipping a non mastery neck that's 15 ilvl above with a socket... I lose around 30 % mastery but gain 6% crit and 1.5% vers.
I'm just a little bit concerned about dropping 30% mastery.... Thoughts?
In poison spec ofcourse.
scarlet hawk
Probably yea.
marble hemlock
im sitting at 15k mastery and 12k crit and im fine
feels bad to have low mastery, but thats all it is, a feeling
scarlet hawk
ye
Higher crit is nice though
cause of seal of fate
feels way better.
to play*
spare cloud
ITS MORE THAN A FEELING
vernal adder
ok Toph
lethal heart
eye of command is an illusion
actually any trinket above 945 is non existant for me
that isnt meme obv
vernal adder
im not gonna post that 970eoe gif for the 10th time
lethal heart
unluck
why is that?
sub 👌
actually progressing as sub in meme guild on argus
that's something
vernal adder
why change if you killed it?
lethal heart
i didnt
just helping out someone i know
and i play monk main raids
i ditched sub on argus
coz we ran 7 melee setup
wasnt enjoyable
and in this guild only 3 or 4 melees so its ez
hmm 5 was my personal breakpoint
whether to play sub or assa i think
or rather
to force myself to play assa
i remember on one rekill we had 2 melees
afk one place in last phase actually
lethal heart
hmm we were running 6 + dh that died on progress
drifting cloud
2 always get rage, then if one of the 2 gets fear the last guy has to cover him
lethal heart
i mean the ball boy yea
drifting cloud
unless you have best healer mw then he steals your rage
lethal heart
5 including ballboy felt ok as sub at least from my pov
drifting cloud
sub with rage in last phase must be fun
warm kiln
wow i played rogue and mainly sin since start of legion and stopped a couple of months ago to play around with a couple of alts and just now after logging onto it again and playing for 10 minutes i just discovered that you can range poison bomb....bit too late lol
would have been nice to know in the more active days
never heard it mentioned anywhere either too
manic vigil
sharp viper
what do you mean "range poison bomb" i don't understand
warm kiln
poison bombs procs under your selected target instead of the target you use your casts on
sand whale
? but you don't cast poison bomb it's just a proc effect from spending cps
whatever you spend your cp on pb is going to be under that
drifting cloud
so rng proc with mouseover macro?
sharp viper
i honestly didnt know that but then again i see limited usefulness since pb is a rng shitfest on its own
select a range target and focus/mouseover a finisher on a target in your melee range
warm kiln
yea prob need some macros to switch targets to not lose out on melee attacks
lean hill
That seems... pointless
warm kiln
very niche sure
lean hill
So niche I doubt we could even think of an actual scenario
Maybe in pvp it would be interesting
strange python
could do it to never swap to adds , just keep praying for pb 😉
warm kiln
just some random scenario where youre on a single target that you need to interrupt while having another stacked group 10 yards away where you can stay on the one target while also maybe proc a pb under the other camp
not sure what the range limitations are tho
defnitetly works from 20-25yards away
supple hearth
Pb has a severely reduced amount of damage done in PvP and it's almost always immediately moved out of. Pb only procs from rupture and envenom so you need to be close enough to use those. Not really ranged...
warm kiln
read up
supple hearth
I did
warm kiln
you can have mob a as your target
sand whale
ah kk yeah I get it now I was also thinking giggle
warm kiln
you env mob b thats 20yards away from mob a with a mouseover macro
and pb procs under mob a
sand whale
see that's where your explanation sucks 😛 you mouseover envenom/rupture a mob close to you while targetting a mob 20 yards away pb goes there
vernal adder
long hands
warm kiln
read slower maybe
supple hearth
Use facts maybe
warm kiln
i just explained it again
supple hearth
Envenom and rupture are not ranged abilities. So how can you proc something at range
If you need to be in melee range
gaunt moat
giggle, if you mouseover macro them, you can use finishers without selecting the target
is it useful? no
but possible
spare cloud
It's decent, right?
supple hearth
So youre saying you don't need to be within melee range to use a melee ranged ability as long as it's a mouse over? @gaunt moat
fiery nest
it's useful on vari when you're using EoC
gaunt moat
you need to be in melee range of the envenom target, but the selected target for PB does not have to be
drifting cloud
and I have 10 of them in bags btw
spare cloud
Not even joking
drifting cloud
960+
spare cloud
960 mass gushing wound
drifting cloud
got shitloads from weekly
spare cloud
I need the relics
I can't play the class so I need the gear to make up for it
no bully
supple hearth
@gaunt moat only scenario where that would be useful is something like curator where there's crap on the ground and you don't want to stand in it. And since it's RNG it's not even guaranteed to land in the time it takes to have the tank move the enemy
warm kiln
point is theres no downside
gaunt moat
not worth the hassle
supple hearth
^
gaunt moat
the downside is you need to use the mouse to point at a target
supple hearth
Downside is you have to mouseover and make an effort to aim it where you want
gaunt moat
which is already too much of a downside
supple hearth
Instead of just pwning
warm kiln
lul
supple hearth
Pb doesn't proc reliably enough to waste that much effort on you're spending every fight worried about that instead of focusing on more important things
warm kiln
like what? to not let rupture fall off? Kappa
spare cloud
How does pb % scale again?
supple hearth
Sure if you're juggling a bunch of mobs then yeah rupture
warm kiln
only point of it was a scenario where you have a single mob on one side and multiple mobs on another side with you only being able to get the the single mob. so nothing really to juggle
torn token
Playing sin on eonar LuL
spare cloud
We would wipe if we let people parse
gaunt moat
i mean, if you want to use envenom and rupture as mouseover macros from now on... be my guest
¯_(ツ)_/¯
in BFA it matters even less
gaunt moat
it's been known for months toph
warm kiln
good that an orange doesnt even understand the basic concept then 👌
supple hearth
Lol implying orange name = orange parses
spare cloud
Can I have a grey name then?
vernal adder
I green parse
spare cloud
Because I'm a grey parser
warm kiln
never said it did either of those
hoary copper
Are you Xae now Toph?
spare cloud
I have a grey parse on argus.
vernal adder
Nah he been playing fury warr on beta
hoary copper
Fury on gcd....sounds fun
gaunt moat
@gusty kestrel he's always been like that
vernal adder
its dysent and nelburs son
warm kiln
prob because youre new but how dare i
turbid harbor
😊
warm kiln
looks like you found your own mistake
sand whale
I just don't see any real value atm with it depending on content apart from padding for logs... I wonder if my guild will let me pad on aggramar
warm kiln
i agree thats why i said its very niche
sand whale
it'll probably be a lot more useful in m+ tho
nah I get some may view it as a bit too much but mouseover is somethign I do a lot anyway on other classes
sharp viper
you guys are still hung op on the ranged poisonbomb
i still dont see much benefit for it
drifting cloud
its the next big thing
warm kiln
why does everything have to be the next big thing. always thought this was supposed to be a place to discuss little gimmicks
civic phoenix
!guide
wise frigate
!singuide
chrome tuskBOT
Assassination guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
civic phoenix
ur a dawg ❤
wise frigate
No I'm a birb.
spare cloud
I'm watching football right now
midnight latch
new phone who dis?
wise frigate
Send nudes
midnight latch
turbid harbor
has that emote ever worked
spare cloud
Yes on me
midnight latch
nukes?
trail scarab
tried doing what you said @strange python with the toxic blade and i got 97% on log 😄
thanks 😃
strange python
i dont remember what i said but no prob
spare cloud
ridonkulous
faint mortar
guys raidbots say 985 one with shitty traits is 0.4% upgrade, with no master alchemist. what do u think?
spare cloud
trust raidbots
jolly heart
8 item levels is probably the deciding factor there, that's a fair jump in weapon stats
void pecan
civic palm
Again, do it again so that you see that the outcome is correct.
spare cloud
quick maffs
mellow pasture
what channel do I talk about BFA beta in
How does everyone like rogues so far
this gcd increase though wtf
mellow pasture
might as well just play FFXIV
Still
Its why I don't play FFXIV really ..
they should be going the other way lol shorter GCD please.
gotta go fasttt
spare cloud
gotta go slow
mellow pasture
I hope it doesn't go through:(
strange python
I have a really dumb question
dire spoke
maybe I start using keybinds because clicking will be to easy in BfA
strange python
if they said azerite pieces cannot titanforge... does that mean they can still warforge...?
plain thistle
I dont remember exactly but they said azerite pieces couldn't titanforged/warforged and weapons just warforged. or they other way around
mellow pasture
warforge is only like 5-10 anyways
supple hearth
@mellow pasture you can talk about BFA subjects in the closest relative channel i.e assassination BFA stuff here, BFA transmog in the mog channel, BFA PvP in the PvP channel etc etc
dire remnant
alright fam, if i START my antorus order hall quest, but don't pick up the completed mission until after i kill my 13th mythic boss, will i get a mythic cache you think?
drifting cloud
yes you will
dire remnant
so even though technically the mission has completed, as long as i don't collect it before i get 13 kills, i'm good
drifting cloud
yeah correct
dire remnant
like i could start it, not play for 2 weeks, kill 13 mythic bosses without touching order hall and i'd be good to go
drifting cloud
it didnt used to be like that, got changed in nh or tos
dire remnant
haha okay, you seem pretty confident so ima trust ya
a 985 forged fang out of this mythic cache is on the line here ryler
drifting cloud
not sure how not picking it up would work exactly
I just know the cache respawns every 13 days
but the mission itself only has a duration of 9 or 10 days
but basically people had their 1st cache the one that spawns on mythic week be mythic they just delayed it for 1 week and since alot of guilds cleared 7-9 bosses in 1st reset
dire remnant
yeah i mean to be absolutely safe i wouldn't even start the mission
until i had 13 kills
but the issue is the mission is gonna disappear before i get a chance to pug mythic on this alt
this weekend
if that makes sense
just need one more clear so garothi would be easy. but obv i wanna clear more than that and dont wanna lock to some scrub group
vapid moth
whats the correlation between 13 kills and cache?
trail scarab
did u mean my log @sharp viper ?
wary reef
Has this disc not got bfa class discussions?
wise frigate
It's like 12-13 kills before your mission cache will give you loot matching that tier. So 12-13 mythic kills = mythic cache. 12-13 heroic kills = heroic.
@vapid moth
sand whale
following up from before, fuss free targeted pb 😛 https://i.imgur.com/2nCTaZ1.gifv
supple hearth
Yeah you have to wave your mouse around a bunch looks tedious AF lol it's cool you can range it but still
sand whale
well before when I tried mouseover it was super fussy
now it's jsut some focus macros
some interesting things: target friendly force pb to never proc - I've had some bad experiences in bolstering when I chain proc pb hehe
set up is:
#showtooltip
/focus target
/cast mutilate (fok too)
#showtooltip
/cast [@focus, harm][] Envenom (rupture too)
/target focus
so your keybinds remains the same, choice is if you want to target pb for whatever reason you just gotta click on the target. If you use focus for anything else then this obviously breaks like other pvp macros. Obv target PB a bit misleading, RNG is still RNG but it goes under what you target when it does proc.
hazy iron
@vapid moth its 12 kills, not 13. The rule is that the kills you need to proc cache missions is = to number of bosses for that raid + 1
drifting cloud
thats a common misconception
just because it was boss+1 in a tier or two doesnt mean its the rule
tomb had 9 bosses, cache wasnt 10 for example
and in EN the number was even higher and the raid had 7 bosses
hazy iron
It was 10 for me, in tomb 🤔
drifting cloud
I doubt that.
hazy iron
Feel free too, my man.
drifting cloud
if you use google youll realise youre wrong pretty fast but keep believeing its #of bosses+1 ^^
tawdry monolith
Are either of these better than the other? I'm confused.
hazy iron
@ryler im not forcing my point on to you. Whats your incesssnt need to be right? ToS is irrelevant now.
I was just saying my experience was 10 kills, which it was because I actively counted.
supple hearth
honestly I just kill bosses until i get the cache. At this point its irrelevant tho cause BFA soon 😄
rocky atlas
im level 40 rogue and im stuck between playing sub or outlaw. i was play sub but felt like i had nothing to do?? and little dmg and now im outlaw and read don's guide and it says sub is funner idk idk 😦
solemn verge
play them all.. figure out which one you like best.
rocky atlas
ya.. so far outlaw seems to have more to do havent tried assas yet..
jaunty dove
Do legendary bracers affect mutilate? and envenom?
plain thistle
no and no
jaunty dove
QQ ok. Thanks
civic palm
@tawdry monolith With trinkets like that (equipped Stat proc) you need/can multiple the bonus you would get (6114) by the duration of the buff (20) then divide by the cooldown of the trinket (~60) and you will get a weight that you can compare to a static trinket (eg. agility/versatility).
~1PPM equates to once every 60 seconds, aka a CD of ~60 seconds.
It's not perfect but it works fine.
Also, you could just simulate it through Raidbots.com 's comparison tools.
untold crater
list of handy macros anywhere?
like do people macro toxic and mut on the same key to just use toxic whenever its up?
civic palm
People might, probably not, we don't have too many buttons.
untold crater
a lot more than the DH i was just playing
civic palm
Sure
warm parcel
You cant even macro that
strange python
Hey, can any1 take the time to check my logs
and help me out with how a rogue, same ilvl did with 1 mili more dmg than me?
Hounds mythic
quick ice
1mil more damage or dps?
past ridge
first guess would have been multi dotting both hounds
alpine oracle
any idea about beta talents?
strange python
dps
but looking at % of dmg done from abilities
they did all roughly 10-15% more
same lego/trinkets
oke, so even on mythic with the debuffs, you wanna multi dot them?
jovial kite
just link the log
sharp viper
the rogue you are comparing to is not in that log huh
strange python
can i link something where you have both players?
i compared to the top rogue in my ilvl range
962-964
sharp viper
not necessarily needed, most of the information is mistakes done by you which can be read in the log you provided
strange python
then that would be gr8
not tryna reach him
but 1 mil dps difference with same lego/trinket seems a bit too much
sharp viper
you delayed your 2nd toxic blade, you could have gotten one more full use of it
the log you provided doesnt have advanced combat logging enabled, so i can't say much about your resource management
your opener is horrendous, you play with shoulders yet you vanish only 16.5 seconds into the fight, you only use vanish once in a fight 4:39 long (you could have used it 3 times in that fight length)
!singuide
chrome tuskBOT
Assassination guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
sharp viper
please check the opening rotation for mantle in this guide
strange python
oke, why was my opener so bad tho?
on iy
it*
ooooh
ahahaha, my opener usually doesn't look like that
i was just not ready for the pull
sharp viper
you open with mutilate into poisoned knife, you cast toxic blade after kingsbane without vendetta applied
your vanish was super delayed
strange python
Leaving the opener aside, cause in that fight it was a bad joke
i do follow the one in the guide
can i enable comba tlogging somehow?
advanced*
sharp viper
yet you only used vanish once when you could have used it two more times even with your bad opener
stark heart
Poisoned knife 
strange python
i Pk'd cause the boss got pulled far away
stark heart
Shadowstep?
plain thistle
sprint?
strange python
otherwise i wouldn't have used it
plain thistle
oh you did sprint there 🤔
strange python
yeah, still didn't reach the boss
strange python
they do move very fast
xDDD
but like how do you manage to multi dot these bosses?
stark heart
Can't look at bleeds uptime on mobile 
sharp viper
you don't
strange python
cause i am having a very hard time
strange python
Even on mythic with the debuffs?
plain thistle
use sprint and shadowstep to move between than, but dont multi dot if you have vendetta-kb-TB up on one boss
which means you will not multi dot a lot 😄
just a couple times during the fight
plain thistle
oh yeah, if you or the raid is not comfortable with that , just single target 1 boss
it is kinda risky indeed
a example of fight where I did multi dot (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jZq96CGz7DfR1XtV#fight=2&type=damage-done)
viscid helm
Its such a minimal gain
strange python
This is how my opener looks
viscid helm
Fight lasts prob like 3min
plain thistle
yeah, thats not the correct opener for shoulder
sharp viper
tb into kingsbane, yours is different than the aforementioned opening rotation in the guide
strange python
Cause i have a hard time managing everything since this is my first mythic raid/i only started raiding
viscid helm
No garrote?
strange python
only just*
viscid helm
Or my mobile fucked up
sharp viper
garrote is his first ability in the opener
plain thistle
but you should practice the opener on heroic or on a dummy before the mythic raid
sharp viper
the vanish and tb/kb combo is the fucked up part
strange python
oke
plain thistle
your opener shouldnt be wrong just because the raid is mythic
strange python
i know i know
plain thistle
and with shoulders, those burst windows are very important
strange python
mhm
sharp viper
what jhon said is good advice, practice on dummies and in lower tiers where you are more comfortable until it is muscle memory
strange python
oh yeah
will get to that dummy
so my only question would be
how do i manage my vanish
together with my KB/TB
plain thistle
you TB and KB on cd, save vanish for vendetta
TB and KB will align with the vendetta-vanish burst
dont worry
and when that happens, make sure to vendetta-vanish inside the TB window
strange python
gotcha, and even Vendetta on CD, unless KB/TB on or less than 8 seconds ish
plain thistle
which shouldn't be a problem
sharp viper
@strange python this is the opener described in the guide
strange python
oh lol, thanks
well this pretty much sums it up for now, down't wanna over clutter
Thanks a lot y'all for the feedback, very helpful
plain thistle
np 😄
sharp viper
oh and please enable advanced combat logging if you want help with future log analysis ;P
plain thistle
once you practice more post your logs again, we will find more mistakes , hahaha
strange python
i dod that form my game options, right?
sharp viper
but don't ask me how to do that, my PC can't handle logging
plain thistle
more advanced ones hopefully
stark heart
Yes
strange python
@plain thistle aye lol
sharp viper
it can barely handle wow at lowest settings possible 😢
stark heart
jovial kite
sour rune
Should i be using poison knife to cap my combo points in the situations where i have 4 cp instead of just using envenom
sharp viper
nope, only use poisoned knife if you are close to overcapping your energy and the target is out of range or you need to maintain poison on a target out of melee/fok range
sour rune
kk
shrewd night
So what Vaeira is saying is that you use your finishers on 4cp
sharp viper
that entirely depends on how long the fight is going to last, you don't want to lose a mantle burst window if anyhow possible even if it means misalligning your vanish and vendetta
sour rune
Thanks
sharp viper
!singuide
chrome tuskBOT
Assassination guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
strange python
thanks mate
sharp viper
it's also in the header of this channel 😉
strange python
ah okay this is the same one i read yestereve
just picked up the game again after a year
rocking ilvl 923 w00pw00p
fervent beacon
strange python
No idea what i should spend my 110 boost on though.
strange python
ohnoes
fervent beacon
so that's monk, hunter, warlock and shaman that i don't play
strange python
so i did a few mythics and sin seems pretty okayish now, right?
fervent beacon
sin is the strongest for raid, but if you're looking to push key, sub is the king for it
fervent beacon
but I'm doing better as sin as I'm used to it.
steep obsidian
it really depends on the dungeon, affix and how you pull
fervent beacon
On Tyrannical week, sin is the king.
steep obsidian
if you play to subs strengths you won't be a sub rogue on most keys
but that requires planning and mobs left up for a long time instead of just being blown up instantly
strange python
do you guys think im gonna have a hard time finding a group for 10+ or higher with my rogue at a mere 923?
steep obsidian
yes
well maybe not a 10 but it changes at 15
no one really run 10s cept new players or bad ones
strange python
aight. I hate these sick ilvl jumps between raids. You could quick for a year in tbc and not be that far behind!
quit*
sharp viper
well since ilvl didnt exist back then
shrewd night
Not sure if true. If you quit for a year in tbc you still had to attune for the raids and go through several tiers to gear yourself up 
sharp viper
^
strange python
lets say you quit for a year after TK
sharp viper
gotta get attuned for everything
strange python
that wasnt a big deal
shrewd night
Thats your opinion
strange python
Okay youre right about that, but in comparison to now
i remember distinctly because i left for brazil to train for half a year
shrewd night
In comparison to now where you just have to gear up through MORE ways than existed back then?
Not a big deal
Youre SPOILED now compared to back then, considering you can spam M+ endlessly to gear up
strange python
You think?
You didn't really have to gear up for BT if you were through ssc though.
shrewd night
Thats like comparing Tomb of Sargeras to Antorus tho
One singular tier of difference
strange python
ssc - > tk -> bt
sharp viper
ssc and tk were in the same raid tier
strange python
but the ilvl jumps were smaller
that's definitely true
were the ilvls equal too?
shrewd night
No
strange python
can't remember
sharp viper
dunno but both instances dropped t5
strange python
aye
shrewd night
Pretty sure there was an increase, but it was minimal. As mentioned earlier, ilevel was not a thing back then.
strange python
all I'm saying is that the ilvl jump between raids now is bigger which kinda forces players to re-gear every tier
aye mcD
I liked that; ilvl not being what it revolves on
sharp viper
that is not a new thing to legion tho
and as koffing said, you have more ways to get gear nowadays
shrewd night
So if anything, its alot easier to gear and get prepared for raids nowadays, people are just (my opinion) too lazy or ignorant to take advantage of them.
steep obsidian
you can do a 15 in full 930 ilvl group its just that pugs want a buffer for bad players who dont know what they doing and little or no communication
make some friends and they can carry you in whatever gear you are wearing easily
strange python
mcD that's (i think) a poor argument
this is a game for most people ya know
but i do understand you from a 'serious' raider's pov
sharp viper
i carried a +17 dungeon last week by myself dealing the same damage as the other two dps 970+ combined, a lot of people are just bad and gear can compensate for that
steep obsidian
if i pug a 15 or higher i dont want to carry randoms who i dont konw or care about
shrewd night
Its a game where most people expect to get geared up within a week of hitting maxlevel, and few people make the effort.
steep obsidian
i carry my friends all the time
shrewd night
because you dont expect it, alot of people do
shrewd night
As seen by the amounts of 880s queueing for 15s
strange python
yeah that doesnt make sense
sharp viper
free boost* LUL i start with low m+ once i got gear from world bosses, pvp, m0s and such
strange python
im 923 and my first queue was a +2
shrewd night
gearing has always been a tiered experience. Start at WQ > heroic > m0 > LFR > m+ > normal and so on
However, everyones a special snowflake that deserves to skip to the last step
sharp viper
well a lot of normal raid pugs want heroic tier gear before inviting you, heroic pugs are even worse in that regard
shrewd night
You dont need to raid now
strange python
let me put it this way mcD
as a rogue, I needed my tier
to perform well, in what I enjoy doing (m+)
which meant I had to raid
if you know what I mean
shrewd night
You probably still have to raid in bfa for your azerite pieces tho if you want to minmax
🤷
strange python
I think all azerite pieces drop in all content
at least that's what I understood from the podcasts
raids only had specific trinkets iirc (which sucks too tbh)
shrewd night
I would be so very surprised if Blizzard decides to cut the hamstring of raiding by making all gear available from elsewhere
strange python
I thought that was one of their selling points for bfa
shrewd night
If there is no carrot through raiding, why raid at all
strange python
exactly
strange python
the fact that many people ask that question implies it's probably not enjoyable enough
to warrant resource time (dev)
sharp viper
gear is a big driving force for a lot of players
strange python
Absolutely
solid nova
There will still be trinkets too you'll need to farm for M+
strange python
But (IMO) it shoud be fun
the riving force that is
aye richard, but not having the right trinket will probably be less impacting than not having your 4 set
seriously, I hated raiding
solid nova
🤷🏼 I only play for raiding and m+
strange python
i mean, not raiding perse - i kinda liked mythic even though last raid was shit
but i hated being in a group with 20 people
i would LOVVVVVE 5-8 man raids
technically in a group with 19 people
shrewd night
It IS fun to raid for me. But if my driving force is gear and being one step above a casual WQer and thats removed....
strange python
how is it removed?
shrewd night
Then blizzard has taken a step away from it being a multiplayer game
strange python
the casual wqer will never get ilvl 970 like you
shrewd night
Im a mythic raider, and even my own alts have equal gear
midnight latch
@strange python try out final fantasy has 8 man raids
gw2 does too I believe
strange python
but isnt that a good thing mcd?
I have naya, that was the only good thing about it.
sharp viper
I've seen plenty of people with heroic raid gear better than basic mythic raiders #titanforging
gw2 raid seem fun but i only got a brief glimpse into that
strange python
well, if i look at the data i can conclude that m+ was a booming succes
which means bliz will invest resources into it
raiding is still niche
solid nova
MDI hello
strange python
which is why they removed tiers
which will ultimately lead to raids being removed
i think.
just a hypothetis ofc
shrewd night
@strange python In my eyes it isnt. If I had put in the effort by raiding mythics on my alts, sure, then I have deserved it. I dont feel I deserve high level of gear on my alts because I havent put in the same effort.
steep obsidian
its extremely easy to find a normal pug and clear it even at 920 gear
sharp viper
no, raid tier sets are skewing balance and are forcing players to have set spots for items and most of the time outweighed ilvl offpieces which might seem like an upgrade but are in fact a downgrade, blizz doesnt like that, ilvl upgrade should be an upgrade
also legendaries LUL
solid nova
They wanted to stop 2pc 4 pc combos and previous tiers still being used in current content
There was a wowhead post somewhere with the Q&A
And locking down item slots or some shit
viscid helm
Azerite wont change that lol
solid nova
Just one fixed slot for another
shrewd night
@strange python Effort = Reward, should be the driving force for all high tier players. To be honest I feel shat on when I see LFR heroes with the same gear or better running around in dalaran.
strange python
I don't agree mcD
sharp viper
well if the azerite pieces are locked in a place and there are only azerite pieces for that slot it doesnt matter much
solid nova
Why should a casual player have equal rewards to a mythic raider?
strange python
The reward is having fun (for me of course)
strange python
why shouldn't a casual player?
sharp viper
@solid nova #titanforging the most ridiculous system ever
strange python
how does that affect you mcD?
solid nova
Because they are getting the same reward for ALOT less effort?
shrewd night
^
shrewd night
It affects me because I put in effort.
strange python
so you dont feel superior anymore?
shrewd night
I dont feel REWARDED.
solid nova
Delusional
strange python
hm, quite interesting
sharp viper
it fucks you over cause you get no sense of accomplishment or reward of a LFR hero got lucky with a 970 piece while you raid mythic, coordinate the loot and only get a 960 piece
strange python
isnt having cleared said content reward enough?
solid nova
If you put more effort into the game, and raid higher difficulties, you should have rewards of that greater than someone who doesnt
sharp viper
are you trolling now
shrewd night
Why should I sink hours into the game to clear the hardest difficulty if I dont feel rewarded doing it?
strange python
because you enjoy it?
shrewd night
Why have different ilevel at all then?
steep obsidian
but your opinion is wrong tho!
strange python
haha
shrewd night
All players get ilevel 990 gear from hitting top level
solid nova
Lets just all have set item levels with no variences
shrewd night
viscid helm
Its fine guys, classic out soon, can quit this dead game then
strange python
well mcD thats a good question
solid nova
So we can all have fun
viscid helm
🙃
shrewd night
No, its a dumb question
because if your players dont feel rewarded from playing they will quit.
steep obsidian
the whole game is based on effort/time vs reward people will always take the path of least resistance
if my goal is to just clear the content wtf would i bother with mythic normal is almost the same
strange python
this is how I see it:
midnight latch
I am glad you brought that point up with alot less effort
I wouldn't feel rewarded now killing Arggramar or Argus after the nerfs
cause I would have to put in a lot less effort than the ppl before me did
thats like telling ppl in the middle of a marathon that are about to finish the marathon in 4hours time that they achieved the marathon
after only 30kms suddently
while the top ones already finished it in 2 hours+ but had to run 11kms further
sharp viper
solid nova
So by that logic, there shouldn't be pay discrepancies in the world as long as we're all having fun we should have the same reward
Because its the participation that counts
solid nova
I dont work as hard
strange python
I sink time and effort into something I enjoy, not for the gear. Personally, I couldnt give a rat's ass if some "casual" had the same ilvl as I without equal effort
solid nova
But i deserve the same
strange python
but I DO (kinda) understand if you feel that way if you're forcing yourelf to do content you don't like FOR the gear
sharp viper
there is a vast difference between non mythic raids and mythic raids, not so much between mythic raids and their nerfed versions
prime void
infuriating
solid nova
THats fair though Mizu right?
prime void
no it's not kek
stark heart
@gusty kestrel what do you mean "bring back"? Just spec Sub or Outlaw on alpha 
prime void
Gear ilvl based on rng is stupid beyond belief
strange python
hope that makes sense
sharp viper
sub does not have alacrity on beta or did i miss something
prime void
And want the best rewards for low effort
shrewd night
Let me know when I can cash my CEO paycheck for ground level effort btw @strange python
prime void
its great
latent merlin
Guys. I have a question.i Play Sin in m+ and raids. I Like the specc and gameplay. I dont do too high keys, just around +24. Why is it, that so much more peeps Go sub?
solid nova
Its still effort = reward?
shrewd night
No, but it reflects effort = reward
strange python
yeah and the reward is having fun
prime void
because sub is better for keys ?
shrewd night
No
prime void
Sin is good in like 2% of situations
shrewd night
Are you high
solid nova
The reward is being paid?
latent merlin
Does they have an advantage i am not aware of?
prime void
Whereas sub is good in 98%
strange python
okay mcD ill giv eyou another example
steep obsidian
@midnight latch yeah for sure i agree there but i think a lot of guilds still progressing might actually be happy for the nerf coz they are sick of the content and just want to clear it, the guilds who been clearing for ages are probably happy as hell fo reasier clears and split runs
solid nova
Work hard, benefit from working hard
strange python
I'm a bjj purple belt right
solid nova
Blow job purple belt?
strange python
i struggled for 4 years to get that
shrewd night
Why arent you black belt tho, if you put in white belt effort?
solid nova
Why have any belts at all?
stark heart
guilds that cleared content are happy to farm easier
solid nova
Just have the same as everyone else
stark heart
guilds that didn't are happy to finally stop hitting the wall
strange python
do you think Im salty if someone from another dojo gets purple without deserving it?
shrewd night
Would you feel salty of a white belt got black belt, while you remained purple?
solid nova
I havent done any trainng, but can i come and get a purple belt too?
shrewd night
In your same dojo?
solid nova
I'll have fun promise
strange python
absolutely not
you know why?
because i'd destroy him
and if i wouldnt, he deserved it (or i didnt deserve my belt)
prime void
You should dislike that person and that dojo
shrewd night
^
prime void
MCdojos are a disgrace to martial arts.
strange python
i dont think youre reading well
viscid helm
solid nova
I dont think you understand well
prime void
And if you don't feel that way, you don't understand principles behind martial arts
shrewd night
Id be pissed, because it would ruin the integrity of the dojo.
strange python
the point is that someone carrying a belt, doesnt decrease the value of YOUR belt
midnight latch
@steep obsidian ye but dont you feel cheated? It feels like a participation trophy to me .
For me it happen on Sassine back in ToS. We wiped like crazy on that boss. Than they nerfed it and we killed it next reset.
prime void
I think you're daft as fuck, but i'm still willing to have the discussion without throwing baseless insults
MASCAR WHATS YOUR PROG
strange python
prog?
midnight latch
was I happy that it was over sure
solid nova
Progression
sharp viper
@gusty kestrel holy shit i am mad, the COMING SOON talent turned out to be 
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT is this bullshit
solid nova
Lootations aquired
strange python
ooh i just picked up th egame yesterday after having quit for 10 months
midnight latch
was I happy the way we beat the boss? No
solid nova
LOL
prime void
Great
solid nova
BYE
strange python
why?
strange python
so people that are casual (to you) cant have an opinion?
prime void
You dont get to talk about the current rng system like you understand it
strange python
who are you to decide that?
prime void
When you haven't had a part in it
stark heart
why would you care about someone else items and how much effort they put into obtaining them?
hello?
prime void
It's like me going and arguing with someone about engineering when I'm a psy major
strange python
exactly
strange python
well if thats your opinion, you shouldn't argue
steep obsidian
@midnight latch sort of but if i felt really strongly about it i probably would have left the crappier guilds i was in to push harder with a better one
strange python
I won't mind
shrewd night
As I said, call me when I can cash my CEO paycheck. Ill be waiting eagerly.
sharp viper
@stark heart how can you determine the value of an item you are getting? by comparison and that doesn't stop at the border of your bags
midnight latch
Details / skada should have a section stating in percent how much dps some person is waisting relative to their gear so we can properly bully sub optimal ppl 
I magine that LFR hero Paladin in all tf gear doing 356% below his Ilvl in damage and telling him about it 
strange python
it kinda saddens me that you compare a game with work
steep obsidian
lots of guilds get stuck and have no where to go and just give up
pseudo hamlet
Hey guys! What's the Shitstorm about! I'd liek to participate!
steep obsidian
when "getting gud" isn't an option and neither is recruitment
stark heart
comparison to other items not to other players lol
prime void
It was a stupid comparison
viscid helm
:weSmart:
prime void
that's all
viscid helm
prime void
I read it, still stupid
midnight latch
strange python
no, youre not very intelligent for not getting it
prime void
Here, I read it again,m still stupid
midnight latch
@viscid helm not even animated you casual
viscid helm
Stfu
strange python
(on ilvl)
solid nova
If the belt doesnt matter, then why take it?
prime void
You call us daft because we don't see your point, yet you ignore all of ours
viscid helm
@midnight latch
strange python
rather than on skill
sharp viper
comparison to the items of other players
solid nova
If the belt doesnt matter, it's about the skill, then you dont need a belt to display that. You should give it back.
pseudo hamlet
Ah okay.
strange python
Richard belt only matters if it's handed out by a worthy instructor
midnight latch
solid nova
Same applies to my loot
pseudo hamlet
So are we saying that Legion RNG sucks or what?
strange python
when i was in brazil, i beat quite a few 'black belts' as a blue
solid nova
@pseudo hamlet TLDR If you raid LFR or Mythic you should have the same gear because its taking part and having fun that counts
dire spoke
sharp viper
did you take their belts and wear them as your trophies tho?
prime void
Zempai! my love!
prime void
It's cool tho
solid nova
Thats you opinion
pseudo hamlet
@solid nova thanks for explaining!
solid nova
So you shouldnt argue
prime void
You're a casual
stark heart
what? this doesn't make any sense. Value of my 965 piece is what stats on it and how far is it from highest ilvl, it's not related to what others wear
strange python
hehe, if me being casual means I'm not like you I'm proud brother!
solid nova
Me too
prime void
I haven't played the game in a month.
viscid helm
What a fucking shitshow
strange python
that's great!
viscid helm
strange python
dont have any vanishing powder
sorry. but feel free to stay and spread some of that anger
prime void
I have no anger
strange python
still don't get why you got those beautiful panties in a twist
pseudo hamlet
Okay, I'm going to give my insight(haha too much free time NabNaggets!):
-if you do LFR, you get LFR ilvl gear,
-if you don't do mythic, then you don't deserve mythic ilvl gear,
-case closed ELO
solid nova
A mild scan over your post history and they're all either full of salt or more delusional comments
prime void
Just because you're having a discussion doesn't mean you're pissy
strange python
okay you're not angry
viscid helm
But u are
strange python
white, blue, purple, brown, black
pseudo hamlet
Depends if you got it from skill or you looted it from the dojo master.
prime void
MCDONALDS
strange python
and that too yes
sharp viper
@gusty kestrel doesn't matter if it is high or low, all that matters is if it fits your transmog #transmog
prime void
Yeah be careful tisumi
strange python
no worries, i cant omoplata you from the interwebz
prime void
Just don't go to the ground, I heard them bjj guys like to rape people on the ground
shrewd night
@strange python a) Do you feel like you deserve the black belt? And if so, why not? b) Why do you think casual deserve mythic gear by using the same example?
prime void
SHIENAR WITH THE LOGIC
sharp viper
i heard that "dangeroouuuus" MJ style https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-DyQ268AFs
strange python
mcD i dont deserve a blackbelt no. when i start beating black belts regularly i will consider brown. when i start teaching myself i will consider black
prime void
so now BJJ is only about beating people ?
shrewd night
strange python
i never said 'casual'players deserve mythic gear
prime void
Interesting Martial Arts philosphy
midnight latch
Guys let me ask you this.
If you feel that strongly about gear and rewards in regards to difficulty
how do you feel about shit tier players getting carried by 19 which all have to work harder in order to achieve the same goal other do with better players?
for example a Monk tank that keeps dying cause he is High as a kite all the time
or that always grey dps, or that healer with reaction times of a sloth?
should they be entitled to see the same content?
sharp viper
don't you have some bushido code or something
shrewd night
Gtfo
strange python
nah