i think this is nibren-speak for saying he's gonna be a pro-vanilla player
#assassination
gaunt moat
light jacinth
catch me not touching that garbage
over hyped trash for special snowflakes who think pressing 1 button is fun
prisma gull
Bruh don't diss my flash of light!
shrewd night
@viscid helm you just gon let him say shit like that about you!?
light jacinth
frost mage btw
dire spoke
good ol' coldblood rogue opener
maintaining snd
skilling into all trees
I actually still remember how to lvl60 skill lmao
prisma gull
SL/SL warlock though
dire spoke
left tree fucking all way down skipping the speedy stuff, middle one up to middle for strong both hands, right one into second tier for some stealth shit
solid nova
Nostalgia lures you in, then breaks your heart 😦
dire spoke
I'm to open minded that it could break my heart tbh
shrewd night
Its like getting back with your abusive ex
Because you love him
You know you shouldnt
But you're also a dumb piece of shit
dire spoke
solid nova
AH not going to be linked in legacy servers? 🤔
solid nova
The amount of people that hype vanilla or will complain about it, but never played it.
viscid helm
I didnt play vanilla
prisma gull
Yeah, if we get actual vanilla there's gonna be a riot because QoL. If we get QoL vanilla there's gonna be a riot
viscid helm
But im still waiting for it more than the shit they call BFA
shrewd night
Enjoy your 16bit graphics Flowi 
solid nova
I wonder how many people will be upset at leveling speeds
viscid helm
Enjoy you're console/mobile game
dire spoke
Like it graphic matters in comic envi 
viscid helm
Thats BFA
shrewd night
@dire spoke Youre delusional if you say you could easily go back to 16bit graphics right now on your client and enjoy it just as much 😂
600x400 and everything
dire spoke
it's a total different XP 
how is it delusional if I don't expect it to be the same
solid nova
Vanilla is a solid ice cream flavour though.
shrewd night
Graphics matter, if it looks like a pile of shit, people will likely dump it as quickly as they would an actual pile of shit.
dire spoke
There is a game called Broforce and it's actually hilarious with the bit graphics
shrewd night
Fo sho, bro force is bae
dire spoke
There are lots of elements I liked more in vanilla tbh
echo estuary
i wouldn't mind at all giving up graphics for the approach we had 10. 15 years ago to gaming
dire spoke
the problem with it is that the community changed
shrewd night
But when you have excellent graphics, and suddenly expect people to revert back 15 years 
solid nova
@echo estuary What approach my White Russian brethren?
solid nova
I arrived early wrath, loved it.
dire spoke
the approach was socializing, but humans failed on it - that's why we have automatic grouping and no more use for /1 or /2
solid nova
Was my first time in an MMO, probably more factors than that for my view on wrath
dire spoke
that's where WoW went baddie
shrewd night
I liked attunements, people complaining about it clearly wasnt interested enough in doing those raids
prisma gull
I'm happy for you, and imma let you finish, but tbc had the best raid of all time! Karazhan ftw!
shrewd night
!warn Flowi
shrewd night
Dw, can just saronite bomb that shit
vestal wren
when saronite bomb was part of your rotation neverless
echo estuary
@solid nova hardcore approach, no spoonfeeding, fully customizable, highly rewarding skill, highly punishing mistakes, less RNG, no instant gratification (make people work hard for everything), shift focus from 'carrots' ingame (pointless achievements, etc) rewarded for doing fuck all just to keep players artificially involved. Back in the day, if the game was good, players were involved and thriving regardless.
prisma gull
I liked wrath and icc. Finally felt like all specs were viable. And I was casual raider so limited attempts never bothered me :p
solid nova
@echo estuary I can agree on that friendo
viscid helm
There was never as bad raiding expansion as wrath
3/4 tiers were a joke
Ulduar was decent
echo estuary
icc was gd?
jovial kite
no
viscid helm
No ICC was shit
jovial kite
Only tot was good
echo estuary
why
echo estuary
that was good imo, rewarded more skill rather than sheer banging against the wall
viscid helm
Yeh what happens when someone lags or DC's
Literally the worst fucking thing ever to happen to raiding
It was like 20-25 pulls for a boss
echo estuary
cap was 50 attempts from what i remember
prisma gull
If that's the only problem then it's not icc being shit but the mechanic, imo
echo estuary
i'd prefer that approach any day personally, make your tries really count instead of hoping shit sticks after you throw it that many times
the DCs should be a non-factor 2018 and its outside blizzard's control regardless
viscid helm
All that would do is fuck over all casual guilds hard
And blizzard would need to make the encounters way easier
echo estuary
wotlk was super good for casuals and that ment also the peak in subs
since wotlk sub count has dwindled and now they're not even showing those figures anymore
prisma gull
The limited tries never applied to us casuals. Just make it a mythic, possibly heroic thing and I'd be fine with it. Just make an have a decent cap and shouldn't really be a problem. Because if I'm honest I'd be sick and tired after 20 wipe a anyway lol
astral sundial
"causals" is not so straightforward. I am in a causal guild and we are reaching our 150 pulls on argus.
prisma gull
And I realize the hypocrisy of me saying doesn't apply to me and saying "id be fine with these changes"
marble hemlock
limited amount of tries was shit and if they ever reconsider that feature ill travel to the US myself to punch some blizz dev in the face
only time the limited attempt thing worked was with raden, and thats because you didnt even need a single ID worth of tries to kill him
viscid helm
Ofc limited attempts apply to casuals
Imagine early bosses having like 25 pull limit
echo estuary
the highest raiding tier (you may call it whatever, mythic, heroic, hardmode) should always be the real challenge, the very end game. Allow me to be blunt but casuals have no place there anyway, UNLESS you're a skilled casual. The problem is that skill is not rewarded enough in this shit game, its gated by time/grind primarily.
hard gust
poison is just a fancy way of saying nature damage in the context of rogues right
they aren't 2 separate dmg sources?
shrewd night
No.
hard gust
no as in...
shrewd night
As in answering the line with a questionmark behind it
hard gust
dope
marble hemlock
problem with the current iteration of mythic is, that the first 70-90% of any given raid are just easy and roll over too quickly, and we have like 1 or 2 big bads at the end that actually take time to progress on
hard gust
so toxic blade increases poison bomb dmg?
shrewd night
Yes
marble hemlock
leading to people venturing into mythic raiding, taht wouldnt have been able to do so in previous expansions
echo estuary
Let me draw the parallel to arena PvP. If you're great at the game, you CAN be very very casual and still compete at the highest echelon. Why the fuck isnt this the case in PvE? Well gear. Gear = time. Thats the issue
marble hemlock
i do however feel that it was necessary for blizzard to lead the raid-design into a direction like this, because for the amount of resources they put into the highest difficulty raiding content, theres just not enough of the "old" heroic raiders out there to justify the resource-input
echo estuary
For dragonslayers i imagine the gear being some kind of carrot right
a carrot to chase
marble hemlock
i mean, back in cata/mop you didnt need to grind gear when the new raidtier came out, because your gear from the old one was already better than every non-hc loot except for maybe a few trinkets
echo estuary
why not change that concept
marble hemlock
so for someone like me, raiding was never really about the gear
marble hemlock
because you got out of the content in bis gear and got the new one while progressing/farming through the new one
marble hemlock
so unless you split-raid back then, there was no "gear grind"
astral sundial
@echo estuary I think grinding can be an issue, but also time investment does not have to be centered around gear grind - game won't be fun if it's just an instant skill reward.
echo estuary
gear ment less of an improvement back in the day
marble hemlock
raiding was the only way to get good gear in the first place, which has only changed recently with TF being a thing
alpine latch
There's so many more ways to get good gear now it's not even funny
echo estuary
ergo the game was more competitive from a skill standpoint
spare cloud
You get some offpieces high ttf maybe
when you grind other shit
but thats not rewarding at all
You still need the set etc. from the current raid tier
so you need to do it anways and can't get good gear any other way
I've never seen a perso who only does heroic/m+ that comes even close to me in gear
even with the ttf
I'm not saying ttf is a good system because its not
marble hemlock
Perelman has a point, i feel like skill has become less important nowadays than it used to, but that has multiple reasons
spare cloud
but its not that impactful
shrewd night
My druid has never touched mythic, Still 970 geared
spare cloud
so?
vestal wren
-.-
alpine latch
I'm not saying that M+ is going to give you the best gear possible ... I'm simply saying that it's easier and easier to get gear outside of raids
spare cloud
you still wont get close to 980 that many mythic geared people have
There is no problem with that
alpine latch
Nope, none at all
spare cloud
but the gear is still shit most of the time
what use has a 980 chest
when you need the set
to do dmg
alpine latch
Sure, but some sets are shit too
spare cloud
Maybe for healer or tanks
marble hemlock
well, you have 4 different difficulties to get your set-chest from
spare cloud
are there any dps speccs that dont use 4pc?
shrewd night
Guardian druid too easy, use whatever has the highest itemlevel
marble hemlock
took us 3weeks to get everyone 4set, and most people didnt bother doing normal/lfr for theirs
alpine latch
4pc of current tier? Or any tier?
marble hemlock
and we dont splitraid
echo estuary
The reason is simple. Oldschools have quit because the game became garbage and now they're catering to their main demographic that fills their wallets -- newer players. So they have to decrease the skillgap, introduce artificial ways to keep the player hooked to the game. Make it super mario on easy level by default.
alpine latch
WoW didn't "become shit". You're fucking retarded.
marble hemlock
can you stop calling it ttf
alpine latch
The reason older people stopped playing is because they grew up
spare cloud
why
marble hemlock
feels like youre stuttering
echo estuary
oh now it didnt become shit, nice one
marble hemlock
whats ttf? TiTanForged?
echo estuary
in what bubble do you live in
shrewd night
@alpine latch edit that shit dawg
spare cloud
well w/e
shrewd night
u living dangerous
alpine latch
No
marble hemlock
and wow is shit
echo estuary
i'm not even offended by his lingo
marble hemlock
wow still has the best pve endgame out of any mmo, FF XIV is giving it a run for its money though, but theyre still far away i feel
shrewd night
FFXIV would be good, if leveling and classes wasnt grindy bullshit
alpine latch
FFXIV would be great if I didn't spend 20 of my first 30 minutes watching stupid ass in-game cinematics
marble hemlock
i feel like raiding has taken a huge drop though compared to cata/mop raiding
alpine latch
I literally never made it past the second or third quest
spare cloud
I can't really give my judgement on that
marble hemlock
i mean
spare cloud
because I havent played cata mop
alpine latch
It's SO HARD to compare raiding across xpacs
marble hemlock
i feel like m+ right now is the saving grace to high-end, skill-based, pve endgame
not mythic raiding
which just feels a bit weird
but maybe thats where the game is ultimately headed
alpine latch
Vanilla/BC had the toughest raids out there.. But people were also new, had no clue wtf they were doing, there wasn't much in terms of optimization, etc.
steep obsidian
it most definitely did not
marble hemlock
BC had a few interesting boss-designs, but it wasnt hard, not by a long shot
alpine latch
Yup
spare cloud
the problem were other factors
spare cloud
like coordinating a 40 man raid
steep obsidian
not because of difficutly
alpine latch
tough doesn't just mean mechanics...
spare cloud
etc.
steep obsidian
people were fucking horrible at raiding in vanilla
alpine latch
#thatsthepoint
spare cloud
But then the raid isnt tough
alpine latch
Sure it is
spare cloud
getting into the raid is though
jovial kite
WHY THE FUNK ARE WE SO ANGERY 
spare cloud
those are 2 different things
marble hemlock
the statement is just factually wrong though
viscid helm
You didnt need to grind shit or get resi gear
marble hemlock
the raids werent tough
alpine latch
Getting into the raid requires walking through a portal
viscid helm
People were just bad
alpine latch
so that's just silly
steep obsidian
fook joo slagg i aint angery
marble hemlock
being prepared for the raid was
alpine latch
And yes, tough doesn't just mean that it was mechnically hard.
marble hemlock
once you were inside and everyone had what was needed, the bosses were a cakewalk
which for most bosses just meant having 3 healers with decursive
:/
alpine latch
I would be willing to bet that a higher percentage of people have killed multiple bosses in Mythic Antorus than did in original Naxx
steep obsidian
you couldnt rejoin the game after a 12 month break and catch up within a week either
spare cloud
Ofc
viscid helm
Ofc u could
spare cloud
but you can't really compare
echo estuary
@marble hemlock Part of me that hated hardcore progression (when i pved back in woltk) was the fact that it only took 1-2 players to screw up for the attempt to be void. Dont get me wrong, ultimately i tilted and began failing too, i'm not saying i was exempt from making mistakes (everyone makes mistakes). The main issue was that you were RELIANT upon too many people for your enjoyment. m+ (5 man) alleviates this greatly.
spare cloud
didnt you have like 6 pallys of the 40 people just buffing the whole time
hard mechanics btw
warm parcel
Vanilla/BC had the toughest raids out there.. But people were also new, had no clue wtf they were doing, there wasn't much in terms of optimization, etc.
Pack your bags
warm parcel
Cant beat this debate
echo estuary
This is the main reason really i started to PvP, in a 3v3 setting its very straightforward, and yes you are still reliant on others but its not even close to raiding
spare cloud
I just realized
alpine latch
Anyone who says that "tough" means only mechanics isn't smart enough to have a serious conversation.
lethal python
is master asssassin stronger than master alch?
jovial kite
i think the reason vanilla was hard because you had shit tier players
All the tc was ubderground
lethal python
poison build
alpine latch
Mechanically, a marathon is easy
marble hemlock
@echo estuary i agree, i never enjoyed bosses where a single fuck-up eventually lead to a wipe because theres was no chance of coming back, which is why i despised kiljaeden for example. with m+ you obviously still have a lot of issues concerning group-composition, but thanks to the scaling technology involved its less about time-investment and more about skill than raiding has become
shrewd night
Sooo uh
alpine latch
If you think it's not tough, you're dumb
jovial kite
A small handful of ppl knew shit about their spec
vestal wren
on the bright side everyone was valuable
alpine latch
You guys are just repeating the same dumb shit. I literally pointed that out on in my premise.
Tough DOES NOT MEAN ONLY MECHANICS
marble hemlock
i always prefered the boss-design of bosses that could kill people on an individual basis, if they fucked up, but didnt wipe the raid, but instead you had enrage timers that forced your raid to play well enough so you didnt hit that one, but a dead player here or there didnt immediately invalidate the entire pull
jovial kite
Elaborate palmer
spare cloud
So youre basically saying grinding is also a form of difficulty
jovial kite
what else is there
echo estuary
@jovial kite i agree, people were just super bad in general. Just watch some PvP hero from vanilla (like vurtne), he could 1v4 people
shrewd night
Getting pots and flasks for raiding adds to the difficulty of raiding
or something
alpine latch
Organizing members, lack of optimization, not having 97 videos on how to kill a boss before the raid came out, mechanics that no one had ever seen before (even if they are "simplistic" now), etc.
Nothing is hard about 99% of raiding right now.
jovial kite
^
alpine latch
And neither is 99% of Mythic bosses
marble hemlock
@echo estuary that wasnt just because players were bad, it was also because CC was way stronger and most classes had multiple avenues of cc-ing people
alpine latch
Mythic bosses aren't hard. You literally know exactly what to do.
You just need to do it.
jovial kite
marble hemlock
LUL
jovial kite
just do it fam
warm parcel
Youre 11/11 too
spare cloud
Yeah I know everything I do when I study for my university exams
alpine latch
Back in Vanilla, you had to actually pull the boss and figure out what the mechanics were
marble hemlock
its at this point where id kindly ask for your wowprogress to see whether its worth engaging in a discussion
alpine latch
I'm 5/11. Guild is 6/11 or 7/11 - haven't kept up
warm parcel
I mean
marble hemlock
so
shrewd night
Mythic is so easy
jovial kite
just kill argus
spare cloud
marble hemlock
why arent you 11/11 then?
alpine latch
I stopped raiding about a month or so ago
shrewd night
- 5/11
warm parcel
Its the same now as we kill shit before fatboss
marble hemlock
just do the mechanics?!?
alpine latch
Oh, it is easy.
jovial kite
just kill the boss
alpine latch
I never said I was good
spare cloud
Just do it, it's easy
spare cloud
you just need to do it
marble hemlock
according to yourself
jovial kite
shrewd night
You dont need to be good, raiding this expansion is so easy
marble hemlock
just read the mechanics, and do it
spare cloud
you have so many videos
marble hemlock
easy 11/11
alpine latch
Yup - but it's 20 people doing it.
jovial kite
just do it
jovial kite
Best meme after top 3 private logs
spare cloud
According to your logic
alpine latch
You guys are literally making my point for me ... It's not hard. You know everything you have to do, you just have to do it.
jovial kite
why havent you done it
alpine latch
Back in the day, you didn't - you had to figure it out mid-raid and put your own strategy together
shrewd night
If its that easy, why arent more people 11/11
marble hemlock
no you didnt
spare cloud
Even when you know everything about it pulling it off is the hard part
thats exactly the point
marble hemlock
PTR raids were a thing back in TBC already
spare cloud
wtf are you even talking about
shrewd night
Do we have that many people that cant read in the world?
jovial kite
just do it
novel island
If it was easy enough, everyone would be 11/11.
jovial kite
Its not that hard
spare cloud
thats the exact difference between classic wow and wow nowadays
marble hemlock
method just better at reading than memento
spare cloud
back then you didnt know the bosses but the mechanics were easy
shrewd night
LOL
jovial kite
you just need to git up and do it
spare cloud
nowadays you know everything and its hard to pull off
marble hemlock
alpine latch
@spare cloud that's the point I've been making for the past 15 minutes
shrewd night
alpine latch
So, thanks for agreeing
shrewd night
He is memeing you btw
spare cloud
but thats not difficulty of the raid then
marble hemlock
i mean
spare cloud
thats exactly the point
marble hemlock
you knew the mechanics
because sites like thottbot or allakhazam were datamining the boss-abilities
the same way wowhead or mmo do now
shrewd night
People knew how to do argus mythic btw
spare cloud
thats exactly the difference between making the actual raid difficult
shrewd night
Thats why so many people watched the chinese do it btw
jovial kite
just do it
spare cloud
and making the prep difficult
marble hemlock
i just get the feeling that you dont actually know what vanilla/tbc raiding was like
alpine latch
I'm pretty sure @jovial kite had a stroke.. he's said the exact same thing for the past 5 minutes. Someone wanna go give him a reboot?
lethal heart
what was tbc raiding like?
warm parcel
It was afking
marble hemlock
it was shit
lethal heart
i was super bad casual back then
warm parcel
It was doing a lot of nothing
shrewd night
Tbf, he doesnt know what raiding is NOWADAYS because he hasnt even reached the hard bosses
spare cloud
true
lethal heart
like i got some mount hyjal kills because they did -40% boss hp nerf
shrewd night
Ofc everything is easy if you havent butted head against the hard bosses topkek
jovial kite
@alpine latch surviving a stroke is easy
lethal heart
which made everything more than easy
jovial kite
Just need to survive
marble hemlock
nerfs dont matter in that discussion
alpine latch
Pre-nerf Kel'Thas was almost fucking impossible.
marble hemlock
wat
shrewd night
spare cloud
by that logic
marble hemlock
only hard thing about kaelthas
spare cloud
post nerf kiljaeden was impossible
marble hemlock
was not falling asleep while his dudes talked for like 2mins
dire spoke
Did vanilla have raid journal with abilities descriptions? because I guess that's what he's talking about.
You have to pull the boss rn and figure out the order of abilities and how to handle them - but back then you actually just wiped to see what even is going on
spare cloud
no guild killed him prenerf
shrewd night
Muru didnt need a nerf btw
alpine latch
KT got like 4 nerfs
spare cloud
the tos version btw
shrewd night
They didnt do the boss correctly @warm parcel
spare cloud
unlucky
spare cloud
Yeh
shrewd night
Raiding is easy
jovial kite
i meab
lethal heart
well that's kind of unfair @warm parcel
shrewd night
Just do the boss
jovial kite
Just do it
lethal heart
because argus got super minor tweaks
spare cloud
are you saying
lethal heart
in comparison to kil jaeden
shrewd night
Nah, method is just bad
warm parcel
Kj was a whole other level ye
lethal heart
kil jaeden was just
impossible
20 mil on beam or some shit
nerfed to like 12
50% nerf
that's insane
marble hemlock
kiljaeden was the same as a few TBC bosses were
warm parcel
20m beam during intermission meteors btw
lethal heart
well
warm parcel
Balanced
lethal heart
i mean
marble hemlock
bugged and/or overtuned to the point where no matter how much gear you had, you couldnt do it
spare cloud
😄
lethal heart
i'm just saying roughly 50%
shrewd night
Like, the mechanics of KJ was a fucking cakewalk though
marble hemlock
mathematically impossible (TM)
shrewd night
Just people cant read dungeon journal right
jovial kite
just get more gear and do it lol
spare cloud
Yeh
spare cloud
just read the mythic endboss dungeon journal
jovial kite
true
jovial kite
ye
novel island
Just execute.
jovial kite
Im 2/11 btw mythic
marble hemlock
anyway
shrewd night
For some reason, I think palmer is the same chick that was in here last week talking about how easy shit was
marble hemlock
meme-ing aside
jovial kite
I just havent done the bosses
spare cloud
I HAVE SEEN THE ENDBOSS IN VIDEOS
jovial kite
But they are easy
spare cloud
I KNOW HOW TO DO THEM
shrewd night
Did Argus on LFR, raiding is ez btw
marble hemlock
i do feel like raids overall are easier now, than they were a few years ago, mostly because you dont really progress through the entire raid, but the last few bosses with the first set rolling over when you get into the dungeon
novel island
Raiding is easy, argus is the easiest raid ever. Oh and I don't raid.
spare cloud
and then pull it off
jovial kite
Ye
shrewd night
Just do it
jovial kite
Pull it off by just doing it
astral sundial
the dude probably left chat 10 minutes ago...ppl still argue with him
lethal heart
i remember in tbc/vanilla newer raids were literally gated by some prequests
like you needed linear progression
jovial kite
why progress at all when you can just kill boss
lethal heart
yea probably
marble hemlock
shattered halls timed run HI
lethal heart
probably even all raids really
marble hemlock
it was all raids
marble hemlock
well
shrewd night
Why should we even private log when we know all mechanics ahead of time
marble hemlock
gruuls lair didnt have one
marble hemlock
so not all raids LUL
spare cloud
Yeah
lethal heart
that wasnt great thing though
lethal heart
was it?
spare cloud
anways
lethal heart
like you were so behind if you skipped a tier
shrewd night
Why is stream so interesting when we all know the mechanics. Its just doing it right?
solid nova
@shrewd night Why do I want to see what I already know?
spare cloud
why havent we ascended yet btw guys
prisma gull
Jesus Christ i missed a lot lol
spare cloud
its easy
shrewd night
Right!?
marble hemlock
because its more entertaining to see other people do stuff than doing it yourself
shrewd night
I watched method do argus, raiding is so ez btw
marble hemlock
thats why people watch porn. easier than doing it yourself LUL
prisma gull
I just scrolled down through it all lol
marble hemlock
hc or myth?
shrewd night
lfr
solid nova
Normal
jovial kite
you could say im 11/11
keen inlet
jovial kite
All i need to do is just kill the boss
keen inlet
prisma gull
Im 11/11 normal*4, but I know tacts
jovial kite
just do it fam
prisma gull
Cutting edge
keen inlet
Circle-jerking about difficulties, logging, etc ➡ #off-topic 🚪
marble hemlock
fun-police arrived
keen inlet
@spare cloud You have a problem, son?
marble hemlock
just need to find a way to flavour the discussion with assassination
so we can continue
prisma gull
Thanks for the chuckles though :)
keen inlet
You act like you're new around here. YOU KNOW THE LAW
marble hemlock
theres medication for your problem, isnt there?
spare cloud
can we go to offtopic with that discussion pleayse
keen inlet
ty
hoary copper
Don killed the channel RIP
marble hemlock
dire spoke
hoary copper
Fuu 👀
fast nacelle
vernal adder
zealous dew
wtb 960 sub relics
keen inlet
Bot's not working
strange python
hey someone got a link for bis aoe trinkets rogue ?
strange python
Bots need to sleep too
keen inlet
hoary copper
ooo does that mean we're immune to punishment then?
Im a good boi, Im just asking for a friend
gaunt moat
what if we are also bots 🤔
mellow pier
@keen inlet oh congrats been gone awhile
keen inlet
ty
plain thistle
strange python
@keen inlet herodmage says that eye of command ist one of the best aoe trinkets oO
marble hemlock
thats becasue it is
you just dont switch targets to rupture multiple targets, but use a mouseover macro instead
marble hemlock
theres a 2/3target
plain thistle
yup, thats not AoE, thats cleave 😄
marble hemlock
you can see where things are going for aoe though
by comparing the singletarget and 3target trinket sims
strange python
but i need a list for m+ trinkets
hoary copper
Change it to beastlord, I think thats what you want. https://bloodmallet.github.io/ has it too
marble hemlock
dont listen to flowi, he just hates everything and everyone
strange python
sin is fine for m+
viscid helm
♿
strange python
seliathan do u like to go ToS mythic ? 😄
marble hemlock
already done it this week
hoary copper
fuu has escaped from Sub....cracks whip back!
marble hemlock
@strange python on same ilvl this is pretty much the top5 trinkets: mastery statstick, versa statstick, engine of eradication, shadow singed fang, voidstalkers contract
manic vigil
flowi
vestal wren
content drought -> wow is not that attractive atm
so ofc community will discuss less
marble hemlock
since you wont be having any of those on a high ilvl unless youve been sexually molested by a leprechaun during your childhood, youre most likely just going to use golganneths+shadowsinged fang
marble hemlock
cba
strange python
low keys 16-19 ?
marble hemlock
got a maw27
marble hemlock
m+ best+
vestal wren
i dont like m+
viscid helm
no one does at this point
strange python
i like it a lot
marble hemlock
its one of the few features this expansion that has generally been praised
vestal wren
mdi also has a higher viewer count then pvp iirc
marble hemlock
and opened up new avenues of advertisement by running tournaments for it
hoary copper
we have pvp in the game?
strange python
no
viscid helm
mdi is awful
marble hemlock
i agree
viscid helm
clearly shows blizzard doesnt care
marble hemlock
MDI is basically shoehorning the same issues that the worldfirst raiding scene has into the m+ branch
vestal wren
bc. they restrict you to play a certain combo?
marble hemlock
yes
cant switch comp in any given bo3
which is weird
considering they didnt have that enforced in the timetrials 😄
viscid helm
did blizzard already fix BRHarcane mage
vestal wren
ye does not make to much sense to me also
marble hemlock
it makes sense
viscid helm
i'd assume they did
marble hemlock
but it doesnt make sense to enforce completely different rules for the qualification
strange python
i am not interested on mdi actually, cause the rules forced more the "meta" gaming
marble hemlock
its like playing football with 2 balls in a 60min game
and then the actual tournament is 1ball again and 90min
vestal wren
they punish you for beeing creative
and not bringing monk e.g
and yes monk is overtuned in m+
marble hemlock
its hard to say at this point, because weve only seen the chinese MDI regionals
and chinese have never multiclassed in events like these
strange python
monk felt fine the whole xpac for m+
marble hemlock
wouldnt mind the same rules we have in arena in m+
i.e. no on use trinkets
no trait/relic stacking
no sets
solar willow
I was boosting m+15 the other day a monk and he did more dps total than me lul
spare cloud
Thats awkward
marble hemlock
nice boost
had a healer who wanted a boost for a 23 key "to show her guildies she can heal a 23"
strange python
the guild sheet is broken, but i am arround 1800~ solved m+ keys btw
viscid helm
#BringBackChallengeModes
spare cloud
Probably should thin about if youre the right person to boost
Tbh m+ and challenge mode could both work fine
Kinda like you can either go for speed or for higher difficulty
strange python
is m+ not a challangemode++ ?`
strange python
lül
spare cloud
That would be awesome as well
vestal wren
i cant wait for raid+
spare cloud
Like with additional mechanics
viscid helm
no thanks
spare cloud
Nah that would suck
hoary copper
I dont do m+ really, dont have the time or patience to do enough to get a high enough score to do the ones I prob need.
viscid helm
that would never work
marble hemlock
quaking+grevious argus
hoary copper
quaking is fairly easy
viscid helm
there is no fucking way any guild would wanna go back to reprogress after like 3 weeks of progress on tier release
thats just dum
spare cloud
You wouldnt have to do smth like that
You could design it specifically for every tier
And its not really reprogress if you only tweak a few mechanics
And scale it up
strange python
try to manage the old mechanics, argus with +30% life should be strong enough
spare cloud
Ofc
marble hemlock
are you really reprogressing when its the same mechanics, only more damage taken/health on bosses/adds?
spare cloud
Bosses would be designed with it in mind
viscid helm
yes?
marble hemlock
just need more gear and do the same on a lower raid+ level 😄
strange python
20min fight inc ;p
viscid helm
sounds like a pointless system
spare cloud
They could be released later as well
marble hemlock
thats because it is
^^
i wouldnt mind a nighthold+5 raid though
that drops base ilvl 940
spare cloud
You could up the loot
spare cloud
marble hemlock
raid+ for old raidtiers sounds great actually
spare cloud
K den
spare cloud
Garothi with 20% more hp = 30 min fight
marble hemlock
since you usually outgear older raids hard, and the loot is shit anyway, just do raid+ for old tiers to make that gear available on a higher base and due to the scaling the bosses dont just drop dead when you look at them funny
spare cloud
strange python
and i am rly happy about bfa, its only persolootz
drifting cloud
not confirmed at all
viscid helm
BFA is literal dog shit
spare cloud
That would be really reliant on how they plan to make gear though
strange python
yeah, didnt play alpha since 3 weeks
spare cloud
But it could be really fun
vestal wren
raid affix:
poison is bad
all raid mechanics do 3 times the damage
Raid boss inc
all raid bosses now have double the amount of hp
beautiful zoo
all adds have 3 times the hp
viscid helm
I've logged to Alpha once in these past 2-3 months or w/e
tested like 9 specs
all were garbage
no ty
Unholy and Feral the least bit
since they didnt really cut abilitys from them
the rest
was awful
vestal wren
sin does not feel terrible to play
viscid helm
BFA Sin has nothing in it
strange python
seli do u wanna go antorus hc tomorrow ?
marble hemlock
no idea yet
gaunt moat
expansion after BFA we'll have moba style abilities :3
viscid helm
I mean you wouldnt think blizzard could make something like Sin and BM even more R
´
but they have done it
and they added like 15 other specs
to that bracket
in BFA
viscid helm
its called WoW coming to console
vestal wren
oh nice, i want to play wow on the switch
gaunt moat
they want to make assassination very simple
but they are going a bit overboard.
it was already pretty simple even in legion.
vestal wren
we had enough discussions pointing that it was not simple
gaunt moat
but weak is saying frost mage is even simpler
marble hemlock
thats not even 2years
vestal wren
so i assume its fine if they make it a bit more simple 😉
vestal wren
you want to say sin is simple 💢
marble hemlock
with 15apm assa
viscid helm
i hope no one herei plays Surv hunter
gaunt moat
the thing is, i don't mind less buttons.
but i said it many times, it should have at least some mechanic to play around.
curerntly in alpha sin has not mechanic like that.
strange python
the game is slow enough, isnt it ?
gaunt moat
you just use everything on CD. and spam envenom
vestal wren
they can buff tb/exang
marble hemlock
80% of the classes are just a maintenance-simulator anyway, where you keep up buffs/debuffs and then press the buttons that glow
fast nacelle
idk why u would get rid off KB
fast nacelle
legion assa was fine
manic burrow
To put it in azerite armor later or some shit like that
fast nacelle
but its like usual
viscid helm
no they wont
fast nacelle
1 good expac - 1 bad one
gaunt moat
cause it's artifact weapon ability... and they mostly remove those.
also, KB was actually very hard to understand.
(even if for you it was the simplest thing).
i don't mind losing KB, but give something else...
vestal wren
i wouldnt lable legion as good
gaunt moat
well you get blindside for execute
viscid helm
but EP
strange python
it hits like wet noodles
viscid helm
is love
fast nacelle
its fine. at least we havce exciting azerite stuff.
working your way down..grinding.. being excited
for this last unique tier
+5 ilvl
viscid helm
Azerite just gonna be current tier set level traits
gaunt moat
yap
strange python
everytime i used dispatch on alpha i was disapointed about it
fast nacelle
i wasnt excited for bfa when it got announced. and the closer we come the more dogshit it looks like.
its fine though - i dont mind
viscid helm
same
fast nacelle
thats how wow works
fast nacelle
they just cant say: alright things went decent in legion lets dont change too much
viscid helm
it looks garbage
marble hemlock
i wanna see whether they send out another statue for people that have been subbed ever since release :<
fast nacelle
just started cause m+ + artefact looked dope
vestal wren
alpha needs to feel worse
vestal wren
you go from legos, tier sets, artefcts, high gear etc. to basically nothing
fast nacelle
this whole bullshit with pvp focus.. gcds... changes in talents
what they keep and what they remove
their ppl just dont play the game
vestal wren
final fantasy has extremely long gcd and works fine
marble hemlock
alpha tuning may be off, but it shows where they want the game direction to go mechanics-wise, and its not looking great
fast nacelle
ff works completly different
you cant compare ff to wow
if they want to copy smth from ff they better start with leveling
vestal wren
sure but you will unavoidable be slower and lose depth of the class from full tier+++ to lvling
strange python
i am fine with losing artifact weapons at all, ur are not forced to play one spec cause trait lvls or do that massive grind
vestal wren
e.g. wod -> legion specs where feeling kinda bad
viscid helm
forced to farm 5x of the same chest
strange python
to ketchup the other weapons
viscid helm
to have it for all specs and ST/AoE
now im just waiting for the personal loot to be forced
so you can never play offspecs
vernal adder
the last dagger
viscid helm
like outlaw
cos you're never gonna get weapons
and you dont even wanna set loot spec to outlaw
cos thats more loot in the pool
if you need something for lets say Sin
fast nacelle
"we understand your concerns but we focus on 99% of the playerbase :)))"
"give it more time you ll like all changes :)))"
"also we have autism :))"
marble hemlock
"you think you know what you want, but you dont. we do"
barren lark
reee 965 crit/mastery socketed gloves from box but cant use cause tier
vernal adder
Wish the WoW dev team read feedback like the OW team, but OW got Jeff Kaplan
fast nacelle
whole alpha/beta shit and asking for feedback
marble hemlock
whos the wow dev team anyway?
fast nacelle
is a huge PR shit
vestal wren
i assume mythic will not be personal loot
fast nacelle
they do w/e they wanna do anyway
vernal adder
lol is OW dying?
viscid helm
yes
vestal wren
ow was just popular bc they spent emense amounts of 💰 for ads
drifting cloud
they just want to kill bfa so everyone goes to classic 🤔
vernal adder
got any info?
viscid helm
everyone in the esports scene knows it
vernal adder
oh esports
viscid helm
no one even wants to get into OW esports
vestal wren
ow was a trend game
vernal adder
I dont care about esports
marble hemlock
imagine the wow dev departement, with like 300 pcs in cubicles, covered in cobwebs, and in one of them you can see somebody still working. its ion, and hes going to make wow great again
fast nacelle
"you want to play without gcd changes? buy vanilla access for just an additional 10$ per month and experience the old classy fast wow"
marble hemlock
id be surprised if they got it out the door before 2020
vestal wren
classic disaster cant wait to see that
vernal adder
it wont be fun tbh, maybe for like a few months
fast nacelle
classic will suck balls but it ll suck les than bfa so im fine with that
lvling will be so fucking boring
but grouping and doing shit together will be nice
vernal adder
and all the vanilla players have played ages on private servers anyway
marble hemlock
lets face it, leveling in wow has never been an experience that anyone really cared about
marble hemlock
they tried again in cata, but it failed
marble hemlock
so by now everyone somewhat realizes that wow starts becoming a game once you hit maxlevel
and everything before that is just something to slog through
fast nacelle
vanilla - op
tbc - op
wotlk - op
cata - xDDD
mop - decent
wod - xDDDD
legion - good
bfa - xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
fast nacelle
you took the time
marble hemlock
sort of
fast nacelle
it wasnt about skill and min max
vestal wren
no
fast nacelle
but no one cared either
vestal wren
skill was totally irellevant
marble hemlock
but as i just said, the leveling experience was actually fun, so even if you didnt have time, you could still enjoy teh game
fast nacelle
lvling was awesome.. you met so many people
vestal wren
wow did 1 thing other mmo's didnt in that era
and that was not force you to group up to lvl your char
vernal adder
I remember I did the whole of Nagrand with a random lock in tbc
fast nacelle
i met so many ppl in vanilla and tbc through lvling /grouping for heroics
marble hemlock
and with a linear progression structure when it came to raiding,/dungeons, you always had something to do even if you werent at the top of the food-chain
ever since we basically hit the reset-button every new raid release
thats kinda gone
vestal wren
other mmo's of the era forced you to group to even beat easy content
fast nacelle
i mean in wow you still grouped a lot
fast nacelle
cause quests were hard
marble hemlock
thats because everyone whos interested in playing an mmo already found one they like
marble hemlock
and they require players to put in so much time, that noone is playing two at once
marble hemlock
so a new mmo has to compete with the already existing onces, which had years to develop features and QoL, so no new MMOs see the light of day anymore, not in the west anyway
manic vigil
Vanilla was dope af... Back then. Now it's just gonna be 
vestal wren
not saying wow vanilla was all bad, if you value games that only value time spend you are fine off
marble hemlock
wow was the first mmo with mass-appeal
runescape/eq/daoc didnt really have that at the time
swift pine
i dont think you can say those things if you never played vanilla wow
vestal wren
tbh legion concept goes back to time -> progress a lot too but with encounters/etc requiring more skill
marble hemlock
wait, fuu didnt play vanilla?
marble hemlock
then i agree with rare
fast nacelle
vanilla was bad for todays standards but there was never a time where you got involved in virtual world more than in vanilla. thats smth only ppl can understand who played it
marble hemlock
because i cant subscribe to the "vanilla just rewarded time spent"
vestal wren
idk that statement is so bad
fast nacelle
it was like a real world.. you actually met ppl through lvling and sticked with them for many lvls
vestal wren
"you cant know bc. you didnt play"
marble hemlock
thats the point though
you may "know" it
but you didnt play it, you dont know what it "felt" like to play it
strange python
the community wasnt toxic 😛
vernal adder
fast nacelle
you cant really know bc the situation was like: there is this new thing called wow. you logged in and it was overwhelming
drifting cloud
🤣
fast nacelle
idk
marble hemlock
which is what most important for the whole nostalgia surrounding classic
vestal wren
yes wow was for the time good
fast nacelle
it was the shit back then. like nothing could come close to this
vestal wren
and inovative