dont tell me ds is used as sin 😄
#tc-research
gleaming root
torn dome
This general talk isnt in any way related so move over to #228878985210101760
next knot
Is simc nightly updated for 7.2 changes?
next knot
Is there a link to that version?
split sorrel
you can build yourself the dev branch following the wiki howto
viscid sonnet
easiest to wait for the next nightly, its kind of complicated if youve never done it before
next knot
Hmmm okay... I'll probably at least try just to learn how to do it 😃
next knot
Thanks @split sorrel 😃
bleak sky
I wasted 2 days trying to be able to build a mac version but gave up.
split sorrel
install Xcode 😃
then depending on if u need GUI or not
QT
I can help you, I use simc from my macbook at work
nocturne niche
How come poison bomb isnt procing in simulation?
split narwhal
The new nightly build released 10 minutes ago, is that now updated for 7.2?
split sorrel
Y
gaunt tinsel
Thanks for the work Aethys, time to check trinkets with the mantle nerf
split narwhal
Is the default Apl good for mantle now?
gaunt tinsel
Oh I guess I will wait then
gaunt tinsel
what trinks are you planning?
split narwhal
Thanks for the work @split sorrel
next knot
Hey @split sorrel I'm currently on the last step of that link you gave me. When I run WinGenerateSLN.bat it does not create the .sln file... So far I have everything set up the same as the instructions listed. (I don't expect you to spend a ton of time helping, just didn't know if you knew a solution off hand or not)
glossy haven
sorry been doing some scrolling but dont see any answers, is there a work around for /simc or are we just waiting for the addon to update
tepid pulsar
armory import would be workaround
shy otter
little pier
bleak sky
Import through the simc app itself
Only 4k dps diff between nightstalker and subterfuge using my apls.
with 3/4 garr
split narwhal
@bleak sky Will the 4/4 Be enough to put Subterfuge ahead
bleak sky
No. still a 3.6k gap
untold needle
hard hull
any updates on sim APLK?
graceful drift
Does simc calculate the 5% damage buff from gnawed thumb ring?
novel pier
Anyone happen to have done art path sims for 7.2 after the APL updates yet and post them publicly? Unfortunatly since Sub isnt a thing anymore I am deciding what to do with my sin weapon.
Sorry, to be more specific, I mean post 36 traits**
limpid holly
yeah @graceful drift
rain ice
yes Zongoso
graceful drift
Thanks!
sharp swan
@rain ice undercooked
shy pollen
willow pecan
maa'm, i'd suggest using the general channel, i'll go scout ahead to make sure it's secure
night agate
is the nightly simc updated so I can get stack weights?
civic cradle
stack 'dem weights
night agate
stat* haha
thin spire
Rip sub, ty blizzard i almost had fun
maiden cargo
Does someone has sim stats for each Spec with the current NH Mythic Gear and new traits? I am playing Sub and I finally think that Sub will be still or even more weaker than before compared against assa
drowsy rivet
can i already trust the stat weights from simcraft?
modern aurora
if they kinda make sense then yeah
pulsar kraken
steep cedar
Aethys will the apl include Draught of Souls. The previous Mantle APL didnt and it couldn't sim draught at all despite it being the best trinket for Mantle
@split sorrel
split sorrel
yes.
steep cedar
awesome
@split sorrel has the mantle nerf made Nightstalker better or is it still subterfuge?
actually thats a stupid question
the only reason it was better literally got removed 😄
i need to think more before i speak
stark sentinel
simc addon is broken ? (ingame, to export)
split narwhal
I want to run 2 set of trinket sims in 1, 1 set with NS and another set With Subterfuge Do i need to add the custom APl twice?
split sorrel
u can use copy= to avoid that
@stark sentinel update planned, known issue
also repo will be moved to github so we'll be able to fix it
split narwhal
I am using copy=, For example copy="Stabilé - URN"
trinket1=ethereal_urn,id=142166,bonus_id=40/3454/1477/3336
split sorrel
rather than only poor navv
split narwhal
can i add talent changes to that too?
stark sentinel
ok, thx aethys
iron zenith
@split sorrel I think new trait do not work.
iron zenith
hm... i see thanks
split narwhal
@split sorrel How do i add talent changes to a Copy= function
split narwhal
Thank you !
stark sentinel
do i still need custom apl for mantle ? wondering mantle/boots (839k) still sims 30k more than bracer/boots (809k), i have the latest nightly build
stone sandal
i'm on linux and i'm on the legion-dev branch. is this 7.2 updated? or do i have to move to a nightly branch?
mystic jolt
How do I change the apl in simc? It has my opener incorrect (haven't really checked the general rotation yet)
strong quest
Is there a new APL for opener with draught + shoulders
and also for nightstalker? 😃
any help appreciated
split spear
Can you guys get your /simc to work?
raw agate
@split spear nope, there was discussion earlier that you can try and use simpermut
split spear
Thank you @raw agate
lofty lily
@split sorrel the NS apl for mantle uses 2 mut in a row while under the mantle buff. is it still not optimized yet?
split sorrel
y
lofty lily
well shouldnt we supposed to just use 1 mut under mantle buff
doesnt matter ns/subter
eager iris
@split sorrel - Before I go permut across builds - are you already doing that ? I will trust your output ( with the updates you have in flight ) more than mine anyways ... As always - appreciated 😃
mossy loom
Aethys, what percentage of loss do you think the subterfuge with shoulders and urge to kill nerf is? 5%?
split sorrel
idk
split sorrel
y
left notch
do you have the addon?
bleak sky
use the armory import
gleaming obsidian
simc is broken, use the simpermut addon - it is updated
muted raven
Is simcraft simming the new shoulders/Sub/NS openers correctly?
Nevermind, I saw above APL still being worked
patent vector
soooo.. with shoulder leg, we wtill go for subterfuge or should I reverse back to Nightstalker? Anyone made extenszive testing?
muted raven
Don't think anyone has and sims seem to be all over the place so not sure
novel pier
@split spear @raw agate Someone wrote a quick fix in the simc TOC and posted it on the simc curseforge thread if you want to keep using simc: https://wow.curseforge.com/projects/simulationcraft/issues/16
Also, confirmed it works.
weak quarry
@split sorrel in the latest build, WM is working properly with finality but it's bugged with the cloak as it is in-game?
split sorrel
yes
cp are snapshot
shuriken stack aren't
if blizzard fix it, I'll do it
guess it's our oldest bug now 😄
sacred grove
aethys is the new nightly good to sim mantle?
dark violet
oak jay
yes
next knot
Is the nightly good for simming? No shoulders to worry about, just ring/trinket
weak quarry
yes, it does lol
ember radish
Does anyone have a link for the newest simulationcraft?
wide wind
get it from this page http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D
ember radish
Which one is it then? just the last modified?
tawdry swift
@ember radish Indeed. I usually go for the latest ".7z" file.
kindred schooner
Has there been any sims done with the boots+convergence+new gold trait?
steady forum
raw agate
lol, does it beat your agi
raw agate
lol, nice.
white wren
would you say this new simc is accurate
dusky wagon
How much did your dps increase post new traits? Mine barely 10k, is this normal?
night agate
are sims up to date for 7.2? Need to get stat weights from them
dusky wagon
yes it is. maybe I'm wrong
I'm pretty sure I was at 760k on 7.1.5
& now I'm barely at 770k
Is Subterfuge + Mantle still viable?
obsidian gate
dusky wagon
(I'm assassination btw)
so it's not better than NS right now right?
Better take NS
swift lynx
anyone know how to sim urself with traits u donthave
nvm
hmm
any idea why the ST energy trait
is simming for like literally 0 energy
gaunt gale
Someone pointed it out yesterday too, jaeed. Apparently it has the wrong value.
swift lynx
o
maiden cargo
Where can I find a list of simmed lege combos for sin
tepid pulsar
hard hull
shoulder APLs arent done yet right? w/ ns/sub
lusty hazel
@swift lynx How did you sim with other traits? can you point me in the right direction
swift lynx
go on the um
wowhead artifact calc
put in the traits u want
and click link
and u copy paste the simc line
and just put artifact=xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
where it would ususally go
lusty hazel
Ah ok, thanks
split narwhal
@lusty hazel https://gyazo.com/580d8f5841270ff1b216f5670977c91b Click that Link on the Top right of the Artifact and this comes up allowing you to copy the Bottom one into Simc
swift lynx
i think u at least go for the shadow tech trait
theres a decent chance like energetic/gutripper are better than the new goremaw but idk tbh
probably just go straight golden
civic cradle
🤔
feral warren
get it everytime doubtful that it is
civic cradle
they're plotting a conspiracy against you 🤔
drowsy surge
Outlaw is Simming higher for me right now overall
drowsy surge
Yeah I can't wtf is with that
oak jay
does the latest nightly include the updated apl for mantle?
drowsy surge
How does that work
drowsy surge
Figured it was a rtb thing
civic cradle
the bot has perfect decision making never delays or makes a mistake
which is quite impossible for outlaw in a raid situation
drowsy surge
Too bad loaded dice is a golden trait and not just a thing
drowsy surge
For me 40k
civic cradle
depends on your gear / traits
drowsy surge
Same traits
kind merlin
Okay that's about what mine aims ahead
civic cradle
for me it sims 10k higher than assa but on ST can't even get close to assa
drowsy surge
Sin looks to be getting a nerf
civic cradle
where?
swift mason
#228878985210101760 and wtf ?
civic cradle
you should continue that discussion in general
shell fern
my sub rogue sim uses Shuriken Storm 5 times on a single target in a 5 minute fight, why is that?
modern aurora
do you have cloak?
glossy lynx
cloak?
modern aurora
that means you use SStorm to make use of it
its actually a very small ST dmg increase
shell fern
hm i dont get it, in stealth Shadowstrike is better than shuriken and outside of stealth backstab is better, am i wrong?
modern aurora
have you ever read your cloak legendary?
swift mason
Omg...
shell fern
erm ok, sorry mistook cloak for mantle, thats the same to me as something to wear in public... so no cloak, but mantle
so back to it makes nos sense that its sims sstorm for single target
split sorrel
attach the report here
halcyon falcon
What Delta do you set up if you go for statweights? I've put it on 0.03% but not quite sure if thats necessary.
raw agate
if you have scaling enabled and put target error to auto it should default to 0.05%, it says so when you hover over the dropdown menu.
bleak cobalt
Im very sorry if this is one of those questions that makes you roll your eyes and sigh, but is the 0.5sec ICD hotfixed into sinister circulation included in the latest nightly of simc already?
bleak cobalt
Ye i dont expect it to be a huge difference, probably within the negligible range, I was just wondering, but ty for answering
civic cradle
logically it should matter a bit, since it also means you can't double proc it on mutilate
round canyon
or proc it twice when your auto and a skill apply a poison simultaneosly
civic cradle
😫 damn you blizzard
split sorrel
this is what happens when I play a spec
it receives a nerf without compensation
hope u're happy I'm assassination 😃 😃 😃
round canyon
please dont play outlaw
civic cradle
ecstatic 😄
mellow elbow
You are not sub...? 😦
wooden marlin
Sub dream is dead, I switched yesterday too
split sorrel
Stay focused on #tc-research
Anyway, I've implemented the hotfix
I should run a before/after I guess
Gonna make a quick img for #tc-updates 😄
mellow elbow
I don't know what to do
split sorrel
posted in #tc-updates
safe aspen
thx @split sorrel ❤
civic cradle
Cheers @split sorrel 😄
hallow gull
@split sorrel Saw you post yesterday that your working on a 7.2 Mantle APL, have you posted it yet or there an eta?
hallow gull
👍
viscid summit
anyone simming much much lower than before 7.2?
split sorrel
problaby not unlocked 7.2 traits ?
hard hull
Aethys any idea what the best setup for mantle dos is? Or still figuring out stuff
split sorrel
idk
tired crest
i lost 60k dps outlaw with same stuff
split sorrel
maybe some outlaw data changed
but I doubt
u sure u got the right artifact string ?
split sorrel
give me both reports pls
tired crest
it was my bad, i simed with old version @split sorrel
with last nightly version i gain dps
muted stump
trying to sim with a 3rd MA relic in place of my TB relic. using a base M Helya relic (phylactery). is this the correct relic_id? 3506:1512:1813
895 version
dry plaza
Has anyone run the numbers on sub w new traits or t20 etc
pure condor
@split sorrel for you sims in #tc-updates: which 2nd trinket are you running next to cof ?
split sorrel
kappafrond
muted raven
Was it determined whether subterfuge or nightstalker was best with shoulders? Obviously relics can affect it but curious @split sorrel
rain ice
any idea when 7.2 simc is gonna be out for osx 😮
grave frost
could anyone link me the apl for NS envenom instead of rupture with shoulders ? tried to manage myself but im not that into simc in terms of apl and stuff
mellow elbow
How do I make a comment in simcraft?
Something that sim will ignore, a single line
@split sorrel
rotund oak
with a "#" at the start
mellow elbow
Thank you!
viscid summit
where can i find the new update for simc ? cant seem to find it
mellow elbow
@viscid summit http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D I guess
viscid summit
thx mate
timber coral
3/29 nightly simmed me 807k, today's nightly I'm like 393k
I'll take a closer look later tn
dry plaza
wait what...pants good now?
dry plaza
ah ok
split sorrel
well, except mine 😄
dry plaza
haha
viscid sonnet
aethys what causes the bug you were talking about in theorycrafting?
dry plaza
has there been any sims/theorycrafting for sub yet?
split sorrel
everything is updated for all spec except outlaw gold
viscid sonnet
(when we have the trait)
dry plaza
im new to the discord is there a command to look at it?
oh I got you
no discussion yet like on a blog/tab
split sorrel
AFAIK no
dry plaza
kk thanks
modest ravine
is the outlaw gold trait being difficult?
barren breach
hmm still seeing nightstalker simming 20k over subterfuge
hallow prairie
aethys, the simcraft are updated with the new changes, or we should wait a little more before trusting the sims?
sullen dagger
@split sorrel are both versions of the nightly updated? win32 and 64?
hard hull
so if sims are showing shoulder/boots w/ NS and DS as optimal dps, i should take the as correct right
just downloaded the newest bnuiild
split sorrel
New Assa APL is out.
It handles correctly Mantle, DoS and whatever you want to sim. It's packaged with SimC as default APL.
eager iris
Thank you @split sorrel :)
Do you know if it made the nightly cut at 23:25 3/30 ? ( Win 64 bit )
Or do we wait on the next rel ...
torn dome
Didnt make it
barren breach
thanks Aethys
toxic hornet
!pins
split narwhal
So The nightly build doesnt have the Apl in it yet?
gleaming root
no
sterile jolt
@split sorrel For quite a while, and with the new APL updates, subterfuge without mantle pops vanish as the first ability. If you add !stealthed.rogue to the vanish line (i.e. actions.cds+=/vanish,if=talent.subterfuge.enabled&!stealthed.rogue...), this remedies it. P.S. Gimmie access to post in TC
sterile jolt
@split sorrel Also, adding &!buff.master_assassins_initiative.up to the NS line, increases DPS for those with mantle by not recasting vanish early in the opener. I've had this and a few other minor optimisations but got the impression they were in the owrks already, hence not making a ticket.
Sorry, I mean the vanish NS line.
@white wren You can squeeze it in there by adjusting the APL but perosnally I don't think its worth using since you lose out on finishers since you're not energy depleted within 6s (usually)
oak jay
Pinned message says new APL is out, but it is not in the most recent nightly?
where do we find the new APL?
hollow horizon
marsh sail
vocal moss
how do i get the most recent ver of simc, im still stuck on 7.1.5
dusk wren
idk i'm new here, but replacing the default apl with what's in the link doesnt seem to do the job
sterile jolt
Just FYI, that particular link is a change set Simc uses to dynamically generate the APL. If you want to try the latest APL, download the latest Simc and use the latest generated APL here:
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/cbbce4d8d84f6dd9a1ef832d3c5f19d6fb6c227d/profiles/Tier19M_NH/Rogue_Assassination_Exsg_T19M_NH.simc
Or just wait for the next build.
bleak sky
Player Miie action energy_targetbleed_regen : Unable to decode expression function 'bleeds'
Miie-energy_targetbleed_regen: Unable to build expression tree from energy.regen+bleeds*(7+talent.venom_rush.enabled3)%2
Simulation has been canceled during player setup! (thread=0)
Player Miie unable to parse 'variable' value 'energy.regen+bleeds(7+talent.venom_rush.enabled*3)%2'
Spits that at me
sterile jolt
likely running an old version of simc?
sterile jolt
Yep, linked the wrong one.
split sorrel
Yeah you need new rogue module
twin ibex
Trying to compare sims between NS and Sub using new APL, am I correct in thinking Sub should have higher Garrote damage but lower Envenom damage? Shoulders/Boots/CoF/Frond/3MA
split sorrel
gonna makes some others chages to the APL
tepid pulsar
I wonder how many times Aethys has been asked about NS vs Subterfuge 🤔
split narwhal
Aethys does the APL use Gnawed thumb ring from Arcway? If so on CD or does it line it up with others
split sorrel
@sterile jolt always open an issue on github
that's the best practice
I'll take a look at
dusty marlin
btw, anyone know when new version of simc will be implemented on wowprog?
raw agate
you should ask wowprogress
storm sparrow
copy and pasting the new APL into simc gets me " Unable to decode expression function 'bleeds'"
what am do
eternal patio
Get the newest version of SimC, that worked for me
storm sparrow
yep dat seem to work
split sorrel
yes nightly have the bleeds thing
but not the APL
just wait for a next one
or build yourself
sharp jetty
maiden cargo
Simc is already updated to 7.2?
split sorrel
yes except loaded dice
prisma meteor
you can get the direct download link here http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/SimcSetup-720-01-Win64.exe
split sorrel
I would advice you to use nightly rather
or even better, build yourself 😛
I'm making a lot of changes lately
patent vector
Stjern guide advise to go back to NS for assassination. But my SimC gives higher value with MoTMA+Subterfuge... is this normal?
willow pecan
cool, wanted to sim myself to check how much shoulders would change the dps, thanks aethys
rain ice
@split sorrel bless u for mac nightly
barren breach
yeah that was helpful, completely changed how bu versus nightstalker ios simming
subt*
lunar trout
I appreciate that with community driven projects there's probably no set time, but any idea when the next Windows nightly build with the APL changes goes up?
patent vector
yup also waiting for the windows nightly... still having subterfuge ahead of NS
rain ice
is assassin supposed to be simming super high with the new golden trait?
split sorrel
yes
dire lichen
@patent vector same for me. AMR and SIMC both showing SF ahead of NS
pure condor
new simcraft nightly build is out 🤗
muted stump
looks like it has the new sin APL added in
patent vector
@muted stump : i can confirm. Can sim my profile without adding any personalised APL and I have the "expected" dps (for Subterfuge+Mantle)
But still... Subterfuge still simming 10k ahead of NS 😄
gleaming raft
20k Subterfuge ahead of NS on AMR for me
dire lichen
17k for me. (Mantle+DoS)
gleaming raft
Just Mantle here
dire lichen
20k w/ NBF instead of DoS
and stil 8k ahead of DoS but that's so hard to believe somehow
bleak sky
My YOLO apl beats the default mantle/boots apl by 12k on a 350s fight and 8k on a 450s fight with 20% varience...
The APL where I've implemented a mantle opener along with proper rupture and garrote refreshing is better but still loses to YOLO
pure condor
can you link your apl?
bleak sky
Same one that's been floatin around
YOLO uses vend+KB+vanish together and refreshes rupture and garrote whenever. Doesn't care about SOT either except for with KB and DoS.
stoic raven
Is it normal for simc to be simming retard high with Sinister Circulation?
as in, 1.04m dps
split narwhal
Yes gooby there is a bug Atm Meaning that KB damage doesnt reset
muted stump
^
stoic raven
ah
split narwhal
As long as you cast another KB withing 20 seconds of the Last Poison Application during the last KB
stoic raven
on the nightly?
muted stump
yes
stoic raven
cool ty
split narwhal
I imagine it to be fixed before too many people get the trait
muted stump
we cant confirm if its been fixed on live until someone with the trait can test
@split sorrel asked for someone with the trait to reach out to him down in #tc-updates
ruby narwhal
@muted stump i just acquired the trait, any way i can get a hold of @split sorrel
ruby narwhal
Yes, i do have
split sorrel
Idea is:
Go on a dummy, use KB on CD, and just spam as much as you can
MP / Vigor / Alacrity
after usage of some KBs
you can stop
just do the normal rotation but use KB as soon as it's off cooldown
of course, log this 😛
and check the Advanced Combat Logging
(in system options of wow)
I guess it's in Network tab
pure condor
i thought we only play with subt if we have leggo shoulders? did i miss something since subt is simming higher even without shoulders hmm
split sorrel
Thanks, it has been fixed.
analog palm
Is updating the Subtlety APL on the backburner atm? (if it needs updating)
ruby narwhal
Not just me being a complete mong then? They fixed it?
split sorrel
@analog palm backburner ?
@ruby narwhal yes they fixed it, sorry :/
it was very likely since I advertised it very publicly but who knows
analog palm
I just see a lot of bustling about the sin APL, so I was curious if that meant that it was fine as is currently or that it still needs updating but sin is the priority
ruby narwhal
no reason to go alacrity for now then it seems
split sorrel
Sub is perfect except maybe the Goremaw's Bite thingy
there are still some very little tweak
but overall it's pretty good
sin is my new priority, before it was sub 😛
split sorrel
no, just because Blizzard killed Sub a bit more every patch
so until they make it great again, I won't play it.
it doesn't mean it won't be well implemented
tbh, until they rework it the APL is great
and the module will always be updated in regard to what you see in game
at least, I try
atm, only the outlaw golden isn't in
but I wanted to finish the Assa things before since the APL "shitstorm" lasted too long imo
analog palm
It is really depressing every time they hit Sub when there are only a tenth of the parses posted by the spec that sin has already
Anyways, thanks for the dedicated work
tawny cradle
@split sorrel did you sim sub with mantle/bracer mantle/boots after the patch to see the difference?
weary parcel
im looking to switch too
them fixing sub bugs without compensating for it was the last drop
analog palm
I still found mantle/boots > mantle/bracers and going subterfuge to be highest dps for subtlety with my gear
In every scenario with low to high movement/long or medium fights
split sorrel
@tawny cradle mantle lost like 5% of dps due to subterfuge fixes
bracers a bit like 2% due to ant fix
tawny cradle
bracers still > boots?
analog palm
I had mantle/boots already and my Tuesday patch cache gave me the bracers
I was like /facepalm
radiant dust
is it possible that with no MA relics boot+wrist is worst then wrist+shoulder? or is ask mr.robot not updated for the shoulders nerf
analog palm
lemme go sim rq again to get you the numeros
split sorrel
a little bit yes
analog palm
@tawny cradle we are talking Subtlety here, right?
tawny cradle
yea
analog palm
kk, good. just a sec
Mantle/Boots: 814k
Mantle/Bracers: 787k
~3.5% difference
For me anyways
patent vector
can someone explain to me why we have to vanish+envenom when we have Mantle+subterfuge? How come we don't have to garrote as subterfuge gives 125 percent damage garrote?
zinc pecan
patent vector
oooh ok. So it would be Vanish+envenom then instant garrote
or under the 3 sec window after breaking stealth
ty
abstract creek
i have a feeling that alacrity as a talent is undersimming for some reason - tested it trough the whole hc farm raid and i did way more dmg then simc told me
i had equal dps to my AP build
bleak sky
Talk about this in general
abstract creek
Why? this is a SimC related issue i have and i thought that this is the right channel to discuss anything SimC related
sterile jolt
Link to logs? Am curious about the gear set
bleak sky
It's not. Alacrity is in no way undersimming. It is an extremely easy talent to sim. Move this to general.
abstract creek
@sterile jolt Logs are private unfornuatly since our Guild doesn't publish them (and not uploaded yet, raid just ended) - however its Bracers/belt | 160% Mastery 4%Haste 25%crit 7%vers
split sorrel
Maybe because you simmed a patchwerk for Xs and your logs aren't really patchwerk and doesn't last the same seconds.
Also your logs are 1 iteration while simc is a lot of iterations.
You can do a sim at 1M5 dps with 1 iteration, and then a sim at 1M1 dps on another iteration
exactly like logs
abstract creek
Indeed - i thought about the same but with 10k iterations i did not do as much dmg in the top 10 iterations then i did the whole evening on ST bosses like Trill | Star augur (no add swap) | Chrono etc.
@bleak sky i don't think its an extremly easy talent to sim - i don't have any concerns that the haste buff is simmed wrong but DP might be with very high (160%+) Mastery
shell fern
Did some Sub sims with the new nightly. Shadows Whisper generates 4% energy throughout the fight making 4,2% DPS gain in my case. Whereas the golden trait only sums up to 1,4% DPS increase. I have mantle/wrists. Just to have a slight idea about what we can expect.
pastel mason
!relics
crimson pawn
can someone explain to me why the nightly build shows that subterfurge is 20k dps ahead of nightstalker as assa, when only the opener makes use of subterfurge? my rogue vanishes 3 times in a 5,30minute fight and never casts garrote 3 seconds after.
Is it a bug? NS should be better in that scenario by common sense. (Got Mantle and DoS btw)
viscid sonnet
does it cast it when it vanishes at all?
crimson pawn
it just keeps garrote up and uses garrote at 0 or 4 cp completly ignoring subterfurge
abstract creek
@split sorrel To give you some numbers, i sim alacrity for 740k but i never once did below 800k with it on a Single Target fight today. Even the highest iterations on SimC does about 800k and i don't think i had that many BotA | PsnBomb Procs - i just checked the APL for possibly reasons and i think even tho DP | Alacrity is a pretty easy talent/psn to sim i think i found some reasons why it could sim lower then the damage you can deal with it on live
split sorrel
give me one log and one report
that would be a start
because I can't conclude anything from words yet :/
@crimson pawn yes I was wondering the same 😄 under investigation
abstract creek
For example: APL allways uses OldWar and AP does Boost your CD's so an OldWar on the opener is usually worth it compared to Prolonged - but with Alacrity it might be different since it boosts your overall DPS and your cd's loose like ~60% dps (also you don't gain the full bonus until like 35s into the fight. - the APL also uses Old War with bracers instead of prolonged >30% - something else is that the APL seems to wait for Kingsbane to line with vendetta but could loose 1-2 casts on longer fights due to that and with DP Kingsbane gains alot of value since it stacks way higher - so the lost casts could be a reason aswell
crimson pawn
@split sorrel kk 😃
abstract creek
Can't link one till tomorrow - if you're still interested then i'll Pm ya
split sorrel
then we'll continue the discussion tomorrow 😃
abstract creek
Allright o/
river sierra
hard hull
whats the rotation APL for shoulders/NS + DOS?
split sorrel
default .
hard hull
vanish->evnomn>dos?
hard hull
just simmed myself w/ gold rtrait at same dps XD
flat flare
Hey, does anyone have string with fully maxed Assasination weapon traits? Can't find which spell belongs to which number
willow pecan
Did a simulation with latest APL with different legendaries, if anyone is intrested:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/228878985210101760/297520189690347530/unknown.png
(sin, no golden trait)
split narwhal
Is that NS with the shoulders @willow pecan
bleak sky
Look in the Theorycraft channel for comparisons between leggos and subt & ns
Aethys did a ton of simc. Frond > DoS now.
split narwhal
Good for me seeing as im 13+ coins dry of a DoS
flat flare
does anyone have string with fully maxed Assasination weapon traits for Simulationcraft? Can't find which spell belongs to which number
split narwhal
43:0:0:0:0:323:4:324:4:325:4:326:4:327:4:328:4:329:4:330:4:331:4:332:1:333:1:334:1:335:1:337:1:346:1:347:1:1276:1:1384:1:1577:4:1578:1:1579:1:1580:1:1651:1
That should be it
yes on the calc, click Link in the top Right
and it gives you 3 options
That is with no relics ofc
flat flare
Ah, thanks, will keep that in mind
willow pecan
43:140822:140815:140819:0:323:3:324:3:325:3:326:3:327:3:328:4:329:3:330:5:331:3:332:1:333:1:334:1:335:1:337:1:346:1:347:1:1276:1:1384:1:1577:4:1578:1:1579:1:1651:1
with 2MA 1GW
and golden
flat flare
Now im at 40 traits and fully maxed weapon seems to be just a 10% dps increase, im slightly disapointed
willow pecan
just simmed with golden trait, shoulder/boots still best
but only by 25k more than boots/wrist
without golden trait, better by 30k
flat flare
One more question, I can see on #tc-updates channel that they simmed leggos. What is the base gear they simulate this on? I mainly care about trinkets, because I don't really understand how can DoS be 3rd and 4th, not 1st and 2nd.
bleak sky
Aethys used his own gear most likely
And DoS does lose to frond
I gained 7k switching
flat flare
Aight, thanks alot man
willow pecan
@split sorrel this is with golden trait enabled. does that make sense? i thought boots were supposedly better with it, but wrists gets way higher
(than without)
dry ravine
Hi Guys, havent had much luck in looking but was hoping to find a SIM of the current legendaries for assassination and their raw dps value? i know the priority in terms of shoulders boots bracers ( in most cases) but was looking for actual numbers
quartz halo
subterfuge simming best for everyone else also? gaining 4k dps using now Boots/Bracers
lusty hazel
Aethys updated it like 5 hours ago, so check the timestamp, he said it would be in the next nightly
oak jay
getting this with new apl
missing 'use_item' action for item "draught_of_souls" (slot=trinket1)
Disable this warning by adding 'use_item' actions into the action priority list for the actor(s), or add "use_item_verification=0" to your list of options passed to Simulationcraft.
SimulationCraft 720-01
anyone else?
split narwhal
Are you using default APl or a custom one?
split narwhal
that doesnt have DoS APL included
Update to the New nightly build and use default APl
oak jay
Yeah I did that . I was trying to compare the sims with different APLs for accuracy
Wanted to be sure that the latest nightly has the updated apl
split narwhal
Copy the DoS line From default APL then
oak jay
I was skeptical because the latest nightly has subterfuge as a 7k dps increase over NS
And I saw some sims with NS ahead
sterile gale
the nightly tomorrow will have a slightly better apl
quartz halo
so subterfuge simming above NS is just some APL problem or?
bleak sky
I believe so yes
NS sims higher for me and aethys
Was a problem with mantle_duration
but only slightly higher.
quartz halo
i dont have mantle sim 4k higher with subterfuge
dark obsidian
Nightly sim opens with kingsbane when I have the new golden and shoulders+bracers?
eager iris
I concur with @quartz halo - same situation ... About 4k and no mantle
lunar trout
So this line has been on the default APL for me the past few weeks:
actions.cds+=/use_item,name=waistclasp_of_unethical_power,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=20|debuff.vendetta.up
That's my Engineering "enchant", Nitro Boosts, which doesn't seem like something I want to simulate 😛
eager iris
Perhaps a reference to Thraxi's Treads ?
dusk wren
eyy the nightly is finally using my opener! thanks
bleak sky
KB should have a cd of approx 33.8 seconds with the .5s icd on the new golden right?
Old cd was approx 29.8 -30s right?
gloomy wing
anyone know the % of damage increase our new golden gives assassination
shell fern
played around with Sub artifact traits, new golden trait beats Gutripper/Energetic Stabbing only by a small margin
normal slate
Did you also try a shadowblades relic @shell fern?
With bracers CoF they might beat it :)
split sorrel
@dark obsidian intended to use on cd
Although i should delay it a bit
Like after the garrote
shell fern
thanks Qai, I'll try that
split sorrel
It's because before NS was improving wrongly garrote on opener
Now it's like Live
I checked 10 times yesterday
And NS Vs Subterfuge are okay
And the garrote empower with the new trait makes subterfuge good
void sinew
Apologies if this is the wrong channel for this question: Does anyone one whether simcraft simulates Draught of Souls usage so that it lines up with Vendetta? I'm trying to find out why my 895 Eye of Guarm versa stack stick (with socket) sims almost 30k higher than my 895 DoS.
split sorrel
And I can improve further the subterfuge APL
Use latest version
And DoS is okay on it
void sinew
Thanks! Is there a new one than on simulationcraft.org? Still shows the 7.1.5. to me.
split sorrel
Idk, try nightly or build yourself
void sinew
nevermind, found the nightly, thanks!
split sorrel
It depends on many factors
And mostly legs
That's why I never put graphs like that
But I have a new format for relic display that is gucci
It's part of my "7.2 fancy things" that will be avail soonTM
shell fern
Great, looking forward to it. You're right that these graphs can mislead some ppl, but I would love to see how the new Sin traits are DPS wise, I dont play Sin, but I still wanna see where the specs go to compare them.
To round this up: Soul Shadows overtook golden trait
swift lynx
kinda think its gonna be worth taking gutripper over soul shadows due to like
flexibility i guess
on multi target
and doesnt have you so all-in on sblades when certain mechanics can just make the trait useless
oh u have mantle
ye not with mantle
shell fern
what legendaries do you have jaeed?
swift lynx
im boot bracer
shell fern
before switching every single relic, I'd rather farm for boots 😃
wind ibex
split sorrel
AP since bugfix
silent yarrow
do you guys know if draught is better than frond with shoulders?
split sorrel
it is not and it's something for #228878985210101760 or #228879234540503040 .
silent yarrow
alright thanks i appreciate it
stark sentinel
with the latest nightly build ic an use the normal apl or i have to use https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/legion-dev/profiles/Tier19M_NH/Rogue_Assassination_T19M_NH.simc ?
split sorrel
the one on the link is ALWAYS the most up to date
so if it doesn't use new things from the module, you can use it
BUT things that are modified in the module and that ARE NOT APL need a SimC update (i.e. new nightly)
I'm currently looking into a way to release a simc build on each new commit
I'll make this available once I'll be done with 7.2 updates
so in the future you would always be able to download the latest version devs uses
stark sentinel
ok thank you
willow pecan
Aethys, you saw what i asked? (a bit scrolling up needed)
split sorrel
@willow pecan no since you don't sync
and wrists increases KB dmg
so I'm not surprised both are good
but it's still WIP tbh
#1 I'm not as expert on Assassination as I am on Subtlety
#2 I can't guarantee rogue module is 99.99% bug free (you cannot 100% that's why 😄 )
#3 I still have some optimization in mind and case of where it might be good
i.e. if you can reduce high enough Vendetta to always sync with KB
7/7 + CoF + Boots
willow pecan
sorry can you explain the last sentence?
split sorrel
which one ?
willow pecan
oh you've edited it now
i guess i should try to sim how 7/7 MA would affect it
this was simmed with 5/7
split sorrel
but tbh
let's say u're 4s late on vendetta
you miss 2 ticks
and the 2 first aren't the big one
then after things become harder
since it's extend the desync
but at one point it comes back
question is, is it worth to delay
my answer would be yes if you don't miss one
willow pecan
does the current APL with boots takes in mind that you sohuld wait for KB to be 6sec off cooldown?
split sorrel
i.e. if number of delay * reduction lost < KB cooldown
no because currently it's better to blow it on CD
but
as I said
there are case where the delay would be a good thing
it's something that I need to experiment
willow pecan
i can try to mess around with it tomorrow
like, don't use KB if Vendetta buff less than 15sec remaining
and don't use vendetta if KB is more than 6sec to be ready
(with 7/7 MA, CoF and boots)
split sorrel
yes go ahead 😛
modern aurora
Was the icd the bug fix or did I miss something?
split sorrel
Blizzard put a 0.5s icd to prevent big AoE CDR
The bug was about Kingsbane debuff lasting 20s and being refreshed, making you stacking to the infinite KB.
They fixed it, so it's not relevant anymore to talk about it.
Sub T20 is in.
As predicted, good combo is T20 2PC and T19 titanforged
swift mason
Thats sad
split sorrel
and if we consider mantle, I would say 2x 2PC is better considering they'll do something to the CoF (I think) and then Shadow Blades & Bracers wouldn't be as valuable as now.
But hey, guess what ? It's not relevant since they'll change everything before T20 goes live 😛
Just wanted to proof my feelycraft.
split sorrel
Will do Outlaw later this week-end, I'm waiting for @boreal patrol Pull Request about Loaded Dice first 😛
swift mason
Outlaw sims 🙃
cerulean junco
@split sorrel did you sim combinations with insignia too?
strong quest
does simc automaticly sim correct now if i just switch between nightstalker and subterfuge?
or do i need APLs and all that shit?
: )
split sorrel
it's correct.
strong quest
does it take care of draught and everything correctly?
silly question i guess
very nice work btw
whoever is making this 😃
strong quest
how do i save sims and like compare them with each other
like you just did earlier here
lets say subterfuge and nightstalker
split sorrel
put 2 actor in same profile
just add another rogue= below
or copy="ur_newactorname","ur_previousactorname"
sub example:
level=110
race=night_elf
timeofday=day
role=attack
position=back
talents=1210011
artifact=17:0:0:0:0:851:1:852:4:853:4:854:4:855:4:856:4:857:4:858:4:859:4:860:4:861:1:862:1:863:1:864:1:865:1:866:1:1349:1:1386:1:1585:4:1586:1:1587:1:1588:1:1653:1
spec=subtlety
head=doomblade_cowl,id=138332,bonus_id=3519
neck=zealous_timestone_pendant,id=140894,bonus_id=3445/1507,enchant=mark_of_the_hidden_satyr
shoulders=mantle_of_the_torn_sky,id=140864,bonus_id=3519
back=doomblade_shadowwrap,id=138371,bonus_id=3519,enchant=binding_of_agility
chest=doomblade_tunic,id=138326,bonus_id=3519
wrists=bracers_of_impossible_choices,id=140889,bonus_id=3519
hands=gloves_of_synchronus_elements,id=140905,bonus_id=3519
waist=high_shadow_councilors_wrap,id=140919,bonus_id=3519
legs=doomblade_pants,id=138335,bonus_id=3519
feet=grovetenders_moccasins,id=140861,bonus_id=3519
finger1=ring_of_exclusive_servitude,id=140906,bonus_id=3519,enchant=binding_of_mastery
finger2=ring_of_the_scoured_clan,id=140897,bonus_id=3519,enchant=binding_of_mastery
trinket1=nightblooming_frond,id=140802,bonus_id=3519
trinket2=convergence_of_fates,id=140806,bonus_id=3519
main_hand=fangs_of_the_devourer,id=128476,bonus_id=743,gem_id=140824/140823/140824,relic_id=3519/3519/3519
off_hand=fangs_of_the_devourer,id=128479,gem_id=0/0/0/0
copy="T20","T19"
set_bonus=tier19_2pc=0
set_bonus=tier19_4pc=0
set_bonus=tier20_2pc=1
set_bonus=tier20_4pc=1
copy="T19_2PC+T20","T19"
set_bonus=tier19_2pc=1
set_bonus=tier19_4pc=0
set_bonus=tier20_2pc=1
set_bonus=tier20_4pc=1
copy="T19+T20_2PC","T19"
set_bonus=tier19_2pc=1
set_bonus=tier19_4pc=1
set_bonus=tier20_2pc=1
set_bonus=tier20_4pc=0
copy="T19+T20","T19"
set_bonus=tier19_2pc=1
set_bonus=tier19_4pc=1
set_bonus=tier20_2pc=1
set_bonus=tier20_4pc=1```just to be sure.. I just looted Nightbloomong Frond 890. is this simming correctly on the latest simc build? (which would be good as it is one of the best trinkets)
swift mason
Yes it is
split sorrel
pin #4 @patent vector
strong quest
at 904 ilvl at 160% mastery
does this look about right ^^?
damn its not big difference 😛
split sorrel
yes play whatever u pref
it impacts only vanish, i.e. one gcd each 2mins or so
that's why diff isn't big
split sorrel
depends
# Nightstalker w/o Exsanguinate: Vanish Envenom if Mantle & T19_4PC, else Vanish Rupture.
strong quest
kk 😃
strong quest
@split sorrel simc-720-01-nightly-osx-x86-5fa4dba87.dmg this is always gonne be the most recently updated?
or can i use this: [ ] SimcSetup-720-01-Win64.exe
?
split sorrel
idk
but looking at this hash
it doesn't contain T20, nor Loaded Dice nor small other tweak for Assa aPL
so it's "almost" updated :d
also the .dmg is for mac 😉
strong quest
okok, so basicly to simplify it, everytime i want the newest version
[ ] SimcSetup-720-01-Win64.exe is fine?
split sorrel
no
strong quest
XD
split sorrel
there is no auto-updater
maiden cargo
when I sim why is there so many differences between my scaling factors?
from sim to next sim.. same import
its wildly different
split sorrel
basing on your name, outlaw ?
maiden cargo
yes
split sorrel
probably not high enough iterations
maiden cargo
50k ?
split sorrel
put target_error=0.05% at least
strong quest
yeah i get that, i need to download a new version every once in a while
question was which one should i download
😃
maiden cargo
where should I write that
split sorrel
which with default profile is 100k iterations
prolly 200k with greenskins and /or mantle
in options
maiden cargo
ok
split sorrel
do not use iteartions
but rather target error
0.05 is a min for scale factor
you can put 0.03 or even 0.01 (capped at 1M iteration by default)
maiden cargo
and this is better than iteration?
split sorrel
anyway, scale factor meaning by itself is not very complete so take it with a grain of salt
maiden cargo
I just wanna know my stat prios for pawn xd
split sorrel
I almost never use iteration
becaus spec X might need 10k for 0.05% target error
while spec Y might need 100k
maiden cargo
i see
split sorrel
replaces X by Subtlety and Y by Outlaw, and tada 😃
maiden cargo
i didnt even know this option existed tbh 😄
split sorrel
depends on spec
0.01 with outlaw might hit the 1M cap
after all, it's just a question of time
maiden cargo
i put to 0.1
split sorrel
well, it's okay but might not be precise enough for stat scaling 😛
maiden cargo
o i misread what you write i thought you write 0.5 not 0.05 before
gg
thxd for help
split sorrel
😃
celest vessel
wow, as some1 who just rerolled to outlaw, I'm glad I came here now. Was wondering why ghostly strike suddenly simmed worse than the other talents.
split sorrel
😛
maiden cargo
sad that ghostly isnt good 😦
although I feel like with gold trait it could be good, dat burst window
maybe thats just feelycraft though
thin spire
how do i change poison on simc?
thin spire
ok nvm than, ty for info
civic cradle
@split sorrel how is WP bugged? just tried it now, its doing less than DP or AP
viscid sonnet
they dont really know afaik, it does more damage than it should
at very very high mastery levels
civic cradle
150% or less?
viscid sonnet
more
maiden cargo
is it worth to vanish on last 6 seconds of kingsbane or like it is in apl right after the buff from normal stealth ends?
civic cradle
I do it right as I cap energy
dont think its worth it to wait for 6 sec
sim says its a bit better not to
dark obsidian
Is the opener used in the latest nightly the correct opener? Garrote into KB?
split sorrel
with golden ? y
quartz halo
http://puu.sh/v5M8i/67eba2dd76.png
does this seems correct latest nightly Bracers/Boots
split narwhal
https://gyazo.com/d75fb776425a35b78965c9974ec77229 Newest APL with 25% crit 4% haste 156% mastery 7% vers, Shoulders+Bracers Does that seem to be correct?
dark obsidian
@split sorrel You said subtrefuge with shoulders was fixed to give proper values in sim right? Still simming a good deal higher with subt compared to NS, with shoulders+bracers and new gold
So that should mean subt is def the way to go for me?
bleak sky
After looking at the sample sequence table and damages generated by the default apl. I think I understand why subterfuge is higher. I noticed that other than as an opener garrote isn't being used during the subterfuge period.
split sorrel
that is true
bleak sky
So that means all that subterfuge gives us is a 125% buffed garrote. It will benifit from 12 seconds of the 100% mantle
split sorrel
what ?
bleak sky
garrote sry
split sorrel
lol
dark obsidian
openers are also different in NS and Subt. They both open garrote, NS does garrote -> KB, Subt does Garrote -> muti
split sorrel
almost had an heart attack and was already checking rupture constructor into simc 😄
yes because it doesn't do KB while stealthed
but you now let me think something
I should removed subterfuge
from the stealthed condition for Mantle
dark obsidian
why wouldnt it do kb with subt buff on, isnt that irrelevant for kb?
split sorrel
😉
yes it should
just because the expression that in consideration subterfuge
which is something we don't care for mantle
I'll fix it
bleak sky
From Nightstalker we get a 50% buffed garrote which will benifit from 12 seconds of 100% crit and for a 7.5 minute fight 4 vanished Envenoms which get a 50% boost each.
Is nightstalker properly applying?
dark obsidian
dont u get more than 3 vanish env in a 7.5 minute fight?
1 at 5 sec, 1 at 2.05, 1 at 4.05, 1 at 6.05?
split sorrel
if ( p() -> talent.nightstalker -> ok() &&
( p() -> buffs.stealth -> check() || p() -> buffs.shadow_dance -> check() ||
p() -> buffs.vanish -> check() ) )
{
m *= 1.0 + ( p() -> talent.nightstalker -> effectN( 2 ).percent() +
p() -> spec.subtlety_rogue -> effectN( 4 ).percent() );
}```it is applied correctly
hushed igloo
is the ask mr robot simulator fiable?
split sorrel
good question
weary parcel
what if they play sub
kappa
@split sorrel
oh wait they'd get declined cuz sub is dead
split sorrel
continue in #off-topic 😉
sterile gale
Must be my mastery is too low.
gleaming raft
!simc
bleak sky
It sims higher for pretty much everyone
hard hull
ah ok should we stick with the old rt? garrote->rupture/ vanish ->garrote and stuff?
bleak sky
follow the sequence the sims tells you
hard hull
the suber APL?
bleak sky
The one in the nightly
hard hull
where u find it ? XD sorry looking
split sorrel
@dark obsidian wasn't a gain
but I'm still wondering why
oO
oh
I'm dumb
3 targets -_-
split narwhal
Has the Golden Kb trait bug been removed from simc in lastest nightly?
noble osprey
is the simc latest nightly one working correctly?
noble osprey
my dps seems higher than it should be
split sorrel
maybe you're not playing well 😛
viscid sonnet
what spec? what numbers are you seeing
noble osprey
assassin / im 852 ilevel. shouldnt be seeing 710k dps as my sim
viscid sonnet
lol, no you probably shouldnt
noble osprey
maybe something wrong with my options.. i iwll double check
@split sorrel you're the guy that does our sims, correct?
split sorrel
y
noble osprey
awesome man. thank you for the hard work
viscid sonnet
you cna uploaad the httml of the log if you want and i can take a look
at what might be going wrong
livid geyser
!relic
keen fable
anyone know the best time to use DoS?
mighty sparrow
somebody know where's the apl custom for mantle/DOS?
mighty sparrow
its simming badly
630k
my logs are all 800k+
all of then even mythic
and AMR is simming better,a bout 730k
what my sinc is doing to me
split narwhal
Have you updated to the newest simc/nightly?
topaz spire
fwiw i just simmed myself w/ mantle dos on the january 715 01 release and was at 595k
then on latest nightly gives me 711k
so you probably just need to use latest nightly
rocky spoke
where can I find a proper use_item for kiljaeden ?
dire rapids
Quick question, should you use Target error or iterations and how much of the right one?
earnest wyvern
Is the hotfix implemented in the newest APL?
Like that sinister has a 0.5 proc cd?
half ledge
mighty sparrow
sim it
lusty hazel
@earnest wyvern yes
bleak sky
Cath trink sucks according to sims
split narwhal
@bleak sky With Subt we Dont use garrote on first Vanish be we do on the rest?
mighty sparrow
why not
tribal scroll
@maiden cargo dont spam here with 'xdddd guys whats my best trinket plz halp lol' when there are MULTIPLE pins telling you to do EXACTLY not that. first warning
unkempt hedge
does the sin APL not work correctly with mantle? simdps went up by like 1k from symbiote, using the nightly from last tuesday
finite thunder
its 702 ?
the version that they released a couple days ago has the mantle apl as default
unkempt hedge
Guessing I got the nightly just before, thanks
split sorrel
Always use latest nightly:
see the amounts of Rogue changes I did the past days
and it's not finished, so every day use a new nightly 😉
I'm fixing and changing a lot of stuff, especially for Assassination
tawny cradle
hey guys subterfuge is simming higher than NS without mantle?
@split sorrel can you help? what changed?
mellow elbow
After simming with fond
16.45 12.22 11.93 11.46 10.91
Agi Haste Vers Crit Mastery
Haste numero uno? Wat
civic cradle
^ is that outlaw?
red summit
what is the cap of mastery in %?
civic cradle
There is no cap @red summit , also please put put simple questions in #228879234540503040
toxic crypt
Just did a sim with latest build, as i have legendary shoulders it shows that subterfuge is better than Nightstalker on dps wise
i thougt after they fix the bug Nightstalker would be the go to option
split sorrel
nightstalker was bugged since months in simc
there were some others bug aswell
I'm still reviewing things, but looks like good now
also heavily updated the APL
split narwhal
@split sorrel Subt apl seems to have some problems, At the 2 minute Vanish it is not Cash a Garrote during stealth, Also KB is only generating 2 CP's when used in The Mantle Crit buff
north parrot
split sorrel
is it 2+2 CP @split narwhal ?
split narwhal
split narwhal
KB +garrote = 3
split sorrel
you can use garrote during the 3s of subterfuge
split narwhal
Its then makign me cast a Mut for 5 cp
split sorrel
doesn't matter if it's on 1st gcd or 3rd