#tc-research | Ravenholdt | Page 11

lament cargo Jan 23, 2017, 5:25 PM

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Fair enough

proven dawn Jan 23, 2017, 5:26 PM

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cosmic orbit Jan 23, 2017, 5:34 PM

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@proven dawn There was no fight, two simulations came up with different results, I wanted to compare the two. This isn't a Discord for simc or for AMR. I think it's reasonable to ask questions regarding different APL's.

proven dawn Jan 23, 2017, 5:35 PM

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Yeah thats fine, digging into the two APLs to figure out why they are producing different results is entirely fair and valid

solid pine Jan 23, 2017, 6:18 PM

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Hi, not sure if this is the correct channel but the latest SimC (latest OS X nightly, to be specific) is giving mastery a small negative stat weight when I sim as Outlaw. (-0.01 with 25k iterations) Known issue?

maiden cargo Jan 23, 2017, 6:38 PM

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yup, its on github, known issue

nova girder Jan 23, 2017, 7:48 PM

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Sorry if discussed already but if there are some issues with KB the numbers i saw in raid after the patch are not the numbers blizz wana see for AP or EX Sin? Feels like I have to prepare for a nerf after the nerf?

manic pulsar Jan 23, 2017, 8:01 PM

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@cosmic orbit @split sorrel by request, I added a simulation with shoulder and bracers to that mmo-c thread I made. Still not getting any gains by re-rolling a 2 buff combo in the AMR simulator. I also tried re-created the exact SimC rotation in AMR and comparing the two simulators. I don't see any bugs in either, but still never get a gain by ditching two buffs, even using SimC rotation.

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The two simulators work slightly differently, though, so some small differences are to be expected

reef canyon Jan 23, 2017, 8:22 PM

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Also while I'm here, I figure I should drop our guide for running weights on AMR to join the ranks of the other great guides for simc.

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A picture tutorial to run stat weights: http://i.imgur.com/r2gpuBW.jpg

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(that's all, not here to promo amr, just wanted to provide a quick guide)

maiden cargo Jan 23, 2017, 8:36 PM

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@reef canyon one thing that keeps me from using AMR often is simulationtime, running a low error % gearing sim with machine learning seems to take upwards of 4-8 hrs on my computer, whereas a similar one in SimC takes about 30 minutes

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any plans to improve simulation speed?

manic pulsar Jan 23, 2017, 8:43 PM

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@maiden cargo the SimC scaling and AMR gearing strategy do two very different things, that's why AMR takes so long. SimC generates a couple of data points for each stat and gives you some local scaling for stats. AMR generates 1000 (or however many you choose) data points for random stats across the board and analyses those. Then it simulates all of the trinkets, legendaries, and set bonuses and caches that info to use with the gear optimizer as well. Lowing the error % below 0.25% in AMR doesn't actually give you better predictive power, so you don't really need to do that - that will cut the time down substantially. 500 data points at 0.5% margin of error is really going to give you almost as good data as 1000 points at 0.25%.

round canyon Jan 23, 2017, 8:52 PM

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you can also toggle "plots" in simc and get a million data points

proven dawn Jan 23, 2017, 8:53 PM

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manic pulsar Jan 23, 2017, 9:03 PM

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Yeah, you can script SimC to make whatever data points you want, and then analyze them however you want. We just "canned" a method for ranking as much gear as possible, since that is what we want to do on our website.

round canyon Jan 23, 2017, 9:04 PM

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additionally, is there any particular reason why the AMR rerolling strategy of RTB is so bad?

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specifically it seems to be keeping any 2+ buff combination

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and rerolling all singles

manic pulsar Jan 23, 2017, 9:05 PM

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I just made a post on that today actually

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http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2156895-Outlaw-7-1-5-Optimal-Roll-the-Bones-Use

Hey all, it's been a while since I made a theorycraft post in the rogue forums. I've seen some threads here and there suggesting new logic for what the best buffs to keep on RtB are. A lot of folks are suggesting that you really want to roll until you get True Bearing, unless you get a really lucky 3 or 6 buff combo. So, I decided to gather a ton of data points to help answer the question.

First, I used an 880 ilvl rogue with no specific legendaries, set bonuses, or "special" trinkets. I

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short answer is that it's still simulating to the best strategy, in all the tests I've done.

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although keeping True Bearing seems to be about equal now, so I'm going to change it to keep True Bearing as a single buff

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IMO, the more options the better, reduces variance

round canyon Jan 23, 2017, 9:08 PM

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ill read this all the way through it looks pretty interesting

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but i did spot a particular issue "I decided that the outlaw legendaries wouldn't have a significant effect on this particular topic"

manic pulsar Jan 23, 2017, 9:09 PM

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i ended up doing a test on some in a subsequent post

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they didn't end up changing the results

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but i can run another large test on them as well at some point

maiden cargo Jan 23, 2017, 9:12 PM

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as far as i know, mantle and greenskins cuffs both increase the value of true bearing quite a bit

round canyon Jan 23, 2017, 9:13 PM

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the boots have an impact aswell

proven dawn Jan 23, 2017, 9:13 PM

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An analysis of the difference between the SimC and AMR results on rerolling w/r/t legendaries would be interesting

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even ignoring legendaries would be a very interesting study if someone wants to write it up

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That is the value of having multiple tools, cross validation, if we aren't doing that whats the point in having multiple tools

manic pulsar Jan 23, 2017, 9:20 PM

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I've been doing a lot of comparisons between the two simulators since 7.1.5. I'll see if I can come up with a nice comparison sometime soon. The difficult thing is that the nuances of how the two simulators work start to come into play when you're looking at small differences - especially differences that relate to timing. The two simulators advance time differently and use a different model for choosing the next action. I have been working on a write-up to try to explain the differences to theorycrafters so they can get the most out of comparisons between the two tools. Sometimes people really want to say one or the other is "wrong" or "right"... when really they are two projects that have made different choices on how to model the game.

proven dawn Jan 23, 2017, 9:21 PM

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Well in theory one could be more right or wrong since we are comparing against a known truth in the form of in-game but for now we need to understand the differences

manic pulsar Jan 23, 2017, 9:24 PM

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Yeah, when we made the AMR simulator from the ground up for Legion, we built in what we call "anticipation" logic to mimic how a player needs to queue up actions in the game. There are situations in SimC that allow you to act upon information that wouldn't actually be available to you yet when you choose your action. You can get around some of it by using ".react" in SimC APLs, but, as far as I know, you can't set up a way to make that work with Power (Energy) in SimC.

proven dawn Jan 23, 2017, 9:27 PM

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I'll let @split sorrel or someone else who writes the SimC APLs handle that one because I'm not an expert on all the intricacies of SimC APLs

round canyon Jan 23, 2017, 9:29 PM

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@manic pulsar how does one edit/customize the APL/rotation on AMR?

manic pulsar Jan 23, 2017, 9:30 PM

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Especially when you are in a situation where you are waiting for Energy, lets say you are waiting for 50 Energy to use Saber Slash - SimC will use SS when you have exactly 50 energy every time. Players just can't do that perfectly. In AMR you will use SS when you have close to 50 energy, like within 1-3 energy of 50. That, imo, is more realistic - and little stuff like that can add up over the iterations.

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@round canyon you can go to the http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/run page and then load up the player you want to sim. Pick the rotation from the picker, then there is a view/edit link to the right of it. You can also see all the rotation on the wiki: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/?spec=RogueOutlaw&version=live. When viewing a rotation, click the Copy button to copy it and then an edit option becomes available. Your custom ones are saved with your username.

round canyon Jan 23, 2017, 9:34 PM

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so i assume that the reason the edit/view link doesnt allow me to edit anything is because i dont have an account?

manic pulsar Jan 23, 2017, 9:34 PM

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you need to be logge din

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otherwise we don't know where to save it

round canyon Jan 23, 2017, 9:34 PM

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AMR just uses my curse account, correct?

manic pulsar Jan 23, 2017, 9:34 PM

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no

round canyon Jan 23, 2017, 9:34 PM

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i was under the impression curse owned amr but i guess they must not then

manic pulsar Jan 23, 2017, 9:34 PM

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we have no access to curse data

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we are an independent company

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just 3 people

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but we use wowdb for item data, that's all

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this is the SimC APL translated to AMR:

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http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/rotation/b214379b10cd4b50b909ae83c44eb04b?spec=RogueOutlaw&version=live&share=true

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it looks a lot more verbose because we don't support implicit type conversion

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the MaxCombo parameter can be found in the Parameters section that isn't expanded by default

warped sequoia Jan 23, 2017, 9:48 PM

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why do i sim like 30k more dps with the new build, exact new settings like i always had

exotic orchid Jan 23, 2017, 9:53 PM

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probably kingsbane bug implemented

warped sequoia Jan 23, 2017, 9:54 PM

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was it bugged before?

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or now?:P

manic pulsar Jan 23, 2017, 9:55 PM

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kingsbane has been stacking 30% per stack with AP for quite a while. looks like aethys updated it yesterday in SimC

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i think it's been like that since 7.1 at least

warped sequoia Jan 23, 2017, 9:55 PM

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Ok, but its correct now?

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i mean, when i sim my character.. does it show the correct damage now?

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sorry for being retarded

manic pulsar Jan 23, 2017, 9:55 PM

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in SimC? I'm not sure, haven't looked today. It does in AMR

warped sequoia Jan 23, 2017, 9:57 PM

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well, i wont complain if its correct i mean 30k dps more.. and i just got 4 set aswell

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so simulating will be fun D:

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@split sorrel what did you do with kingsbane, is my sims correct now? or is something wrong

round canyon Jan 23, 2017, 10:13 PM

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@manic pulsar i noticed your ghostly strike logic seemed a little wonky, it was casting ghostly strike during curse or casting it while at max combo points pretty frequently

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i changed it to the following and noticed a 4-5k dps increase in the simulation

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BuffRemainingSec(GhostlyStrike) < 0.3*15 and AlternatePower < MaxAlternatePower or (CooldownSecRemaining(CurseOfTheDreadblades) < 3 and BuffRemainingSec(GhostlyStrike)<12)

dusty marlin Jan 23, 2017, 10:21 PM

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rog_asn_t19m_1t_aa-4-3x-30-10_relics.html is this one for agonizing relics?

manic pulsar Jan 23, 2017, 10:28 PM

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@round canyon cool I can update that. Hadn't really optimized that logic yet.

lofty lily Jan 23, 2017, 10:55 PM

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@split sorrel does the nightly build APL optimized for draught of souls?

split sorrel Jan 23, 2017, 10:55 PM

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what do u mean ?

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there are plenty of things to do on all 3 specs

lofty lily Jan 23, 2017, 10:56 PM

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i mean i think a few build before my sim dps with draught is lower than urn. then kiwifruit give me a custom APL to work with draught and it increases my dps by ~20k

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actions.cds+=/use_item,slot=trinket1,if=cooldown.shadow_dance.charges_fractional<=2.45&buff.shadow_dance.down

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this was it

split sorrel Jan 23, 2017, 10:58 PM

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there is even a better one with sprint according to what @torn dome said in #tc-updates

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but I can't really work on things atm

lofty lily Jan 23, 2017, 11:00 PM

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oh didnt noticed that

drowsy rivet Jan 23, 2017, 11:14 PM

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are the trinket changes in the latest nightly of simcraft up to date?

stiff forum Jan 23, 2017, 11:33 PM

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this draught combo blows my mind lol

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but isnt haste awful in sub

split sorrel Jan 23, 2017, 11:34 PM

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not awful, just less better

cosmic orbit Jan 23, 2017, 11:36 PM

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@split sorrel Do you have a comparitive list of RtB buff combinations for DPS? Like how far under True Bearing or 3+ would Shark + anything be?

raven tulip Jan 23, 2017, 11:38 PM

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@stiff forum what draught combo?

stiff forum Jan 23, 2017, 11:38 PM

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draught into sprint vanish

regal agate Jan 23, 2017, 11:38 PM

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you can use sprint/drought together bc. drought does not cancle the spring trait (for sub)

stiff forum Jan 23, 2017, 11:39 PM

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use at low energy and get a flippin free vanish

round canyon Jan 23, 2017, 11:39 PM

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@Orckefeller#1827 i have a comparison i actually ran today using my character(not set bonuses)

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let me find it for you

cosmic orbit Jan 23, 2017, 11:39 PM

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Oh nice!

wind otter Jan 23, 2017, 11:40 PM

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woulnt this be even more ridicolous with mantle of the master assassin?

stiff forum Jan 23, 2017, 11:40 PM

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well mantle is just op af

round canyon Jan 23, 2017, 11:40 PM

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https://gyazo.com/297104eea02c5c6edf7cd02b75f98ba2

Gyazo

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shivarran/sephuz as the legendaries

cosmic orbit Jan 23, 2017, 11:41 PM

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Where's TB alone or Shark + anything?

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I'm trying to decide if it's worth keeping Shark with CD's, on pull, etc.

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Because purely rolling for TB or 3+ is not fun.

round canyon Jan 23, 2017, 11:41 PM

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i didnt do those

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and im honostly not sure how to change the APL to have that happen

cosmic orbit Jan 23, 2017, 11:42 PM

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Yeah, I don't know how to do it either.

wind otter Jan 23, 2017, 11:43 PM

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our 2nd rogue got the drought of souls and it's already doing 7-10% of his damage as assassination, wouln't this be crazy as sub with mantle+sprint and using draught right before the vanish triggers?

maiden cargo Jan 23, 2017, 11:43 PM

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do

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2 +TB or 2+ shark

split sorrel Jan 23, 2017, 11:45 PM

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@cosmic orbit https://gist.github.com/Aethys256/58a34608e391773d2b88f9364692270d

Gist

[SimC] Outlaw Roll the Bones Bench

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not sure if everything is well explained/detailed, that's what I used recently

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it doesn't include every combos, but you can add them easily

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don't have time to do more sry 😒

cosmic orbit Jan 23, 2017, 11:47 PM

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Thanks so much, Aethys.

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Just trying to figure out what I should be doing and in-game testing with outlaw isn't reliable lol.

gilded birch Jan 24, 2017, 12:03 AM

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hmmm

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something tells me this is off for outlaw

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http://puu.sh/txs3R.png

round canyon Jan 24, 2017, 12:04 AM

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do you have the 4p and do you have the shoulders?

gilded birch Jan 24, 2017, 12:04 AM

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hell no

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im 833 ilevel equipped

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lol

round canyon Jan 24, 2017, 12:05 AM

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without more information its hard to say why simc is giving you those numbers

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but i would bet that those numbers are indeed correct

gilded birch Jan 24, 2017, 12:06 AM

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if this helps at all

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http://puu.sh/txsf8.jpg

round canyon Jan 24, 2017, 12:07 AM

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what traits are on your relics?

gilded birch Jan 24, 2017, 12:07 AM

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FT/BP/FT

round canyon Jan 24, 2017, 12:07 AM

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yeah i can say for sure why your getting those numbers now

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your haste is somewhat low and without the 4p or energy reduction relics the value of haste goes up a lot

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with 2 fortune's strike relics the value of mastery goes up a fair amount

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and outlaws stats are generally somewhat close to eachother already which makes them switching places in the priority pretty likely

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for example heres my current weights
https://gyazo.com/5d6f3a76a87ead390da2ebb7ebec1af1

Gyazo

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very close

gilded birch Jan 24, 2017, 12:09 AM

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hmm

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so in that case

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haste being so much further above crit

proven dawn Jan 24, 2017, 12:10 AM

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The real answer is, unless something looks dramatically off in the SimC results in terms of attacks rates or attack damage you should follow SimC

gilded birch Jan 24, 2017, 12:10 AM

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should i sub out my Hunger of the Pack for the BTI 835 i just grabbed?

proven dawn Jan 24, 2017, 12:10 AM

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Sim it

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Also stat weights are much more valuable than stat ranks

split sorrel Jan 24, 2017, 12:20 AM

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There might be an issue with Mastery tho

round canyon Jan 24, 2017, 12:25 AM

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the mastery issue is specific to blade flurry situations

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and causes the value spat out by simc to be lower than it actually is

strong rune Jan 24, 2017, 12:26 AM

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aethys i sent you the profile to reproduce, right?

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and the commit?

torn dome Jan 24, 2017, 12:28 AM

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If you ask me the real reason for this close weights is simply the low gear

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It doesnt matter what you get at that level

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Its the same for other specs on other classes too

round canyon Jan 24, 2017, 12:28 AM

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low gear?
my stat weights are at 892 ilevel

torn dome Jan 24, 2017, 12:29 AM

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I thoguht you were talking about the guy in blue gear

round canyon Jan 24, 2017, 12:29 AM

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both actually

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after 7.1.5 outlaw has insanely close stat weights compared to sin and compared to a lot of other classes

gilded birch Jan 24, 2017, 12:29 AM

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oh okay

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so until a certain point, as long as its higher ilevel it's fine?

strong rune Jan 24, 2017, 12:30 AM

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probably, yeah ^

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especially with the confidence intervals overlapping like that

torn dome Jan 24, 2017, 12:30 AM

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This has at least been the case for my alts

round canyon Jan 24, 2017, 12:30 AM

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also certain things adjust stat values that are independent of ilevel

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set bonuses and artifact traits being the 2 large things

gilded birch Jan 24, 2017, 12:32 AM

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yeah i dont even have blunderbuss yet

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😦

mellow siren Jan 24, 2017, 12:57 AM

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@split sorrel i got DoS yesterday didn't see it in your sim lists for 1t sub

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have you played around with it? would it be higher priority than a 2 capped dance?

reef canyon Jan 24, 2017, 1:07 AM

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@round canyon I was out for most of the day and just got back. I see you were asking about rotations (AMR). I have a video for an overview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MVBF44vXvM and an older video that shows some of the RtB tests we did in July (which is still relevant, just change the logic) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF2Nz94AXOA

lofty lily Jan 24, 2017, 2:26 AM

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@split sorrel what i noticed is that without the custom APL i showed u just now, simc doesnt use draught on cd. and it also used it in the middle of shd. that's the reason why default APL sims draught pretty low

delicate heron Jan 24, 2017, 4:11 AM

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Is Simulation Craft updated for tier sets?

tribal scroll Jan 24, 2017, 4:14 AM

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yes

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@slim socket simc.aethys.eu

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or sim it yourself

iron obsidian Jan 24, 2017, 7:23 AM

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Is the sample sequence 100% optimized for sin?

regal agate Jan 24, 2017, 9:06 AM

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the sample sequence shows how the sim plays the rotation.
the apl isnt 100% optimized (it may never be 100%).

split sorrel Jan 24, 2017, 9:08 AM

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depends what's ur reference

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if it's average player, it's probably above 100%, if it's top player maybe not

iron obsidian Jan 24, 2017, 9:23 AM

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Understandable. Thanks

tiny lodge Jan 24, 2017, 10:25 AM

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Anybody know if the latest nightly has the trinket changes?

split sorrel Jan 24, 2017, 10:26 AM

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no

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it won't have them until US got the patch

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and Collision update it

tiny lodge Jan 24, 2017, 10:27 AM

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Ah okay then

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Does it look like it'll change any trinket choices?

willow pawn Jan 24, 2017, 12:02 PM

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Anyone noticed that assa. Leg boots says 86 energy spend instead of 65 on AMR?

radiant dust Jan 24, 2017, 12:21 PM

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Someone know a way to run Sims from mobile? Askmrrobot website is not loadong properly in my phone

tribal scroll Jan 24, 2017, 12:23 PM

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sims

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accurate ones

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require some p big processing

copper stag Jan 24, 2017, 12:23 PM

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the bag of poison got approximately 1+haste procs per minute if you look at wowhead. Is that a valid Information. and does simc and friends account for it?

tribal scroll Jan 24, 2017, 12:23 PM

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just go home and do it

radiant dust Jan 24, 2017, 12:25 PM

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Uhu ty for the obvius answer i guess...

tribal scroll Jan 24, 2017, 12:26 PM

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....sorry there is no secret hidden answer you need a special handshake to unlock

strong gorge Jan 24, 2017, 1:57 PM

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Nani, remote desktop?

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A while back someone had a site as well that ran on his server and took input from armory, like no way to change apls etc.. but I can't recall

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@radiant dust

radiant dust Jan 24, 2017, 1:59 PM

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Mmm that could work yeah

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They should really fix AMR website tho

strong gorge Jan 24, 2017, 2:00 PM

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I just tried to run it right now, it worked

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'estimated run time 1 hour' what

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:o I don't agree much with amr APL

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Well well

analog hearth Jan 24, 2017, 2:07 PM

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Is Simcraft simulating DoS correctly? I got a big dps loss, when i sim with it

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As an assa

strong gorge Jan 24, 2017, 2:08 PM

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http://i.imgur.com/aAAzMQd.png :o

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Markus, what are you suspecting is wrong?

analog hearth Jan 24, 2017, 2:08 PM

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I lose

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sry ^^ I lose about 20k dps when I use DoS instead of Ursoc-trinket

strong gorge Jan 24, 2017, 2:09 PM

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Yes but, why do you think it's modelled incorrectly? Do you get vastly different tick sizes, times, targets etc in simc compared to live?

analog hearth Jan 24, 2017, 2:10 PM

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Well, i just thought it should be better.. everyone is in a hype for the trinket ^^

strong gorge Jan 24, 2017, 2:11 PM

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Or is it more the usage of it in the APL? In that case, what is it sacrificing to use it? Does it cap energy due to it or cause something else to be delayed?

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(Is it even using it? How did you generate the APL? etc)

analog hearth Jan 24, 2017, 2:12 PM

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Well, to be honest... i have absolutely no clue :/

strong gorge Jan 24, 2017, 2:12 PM

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Can you send me your APL on pastebin?

lofty lily Jan 24, 2017, 2:40 PM

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simc doesnt sim DoS correctly as sub. it doesnt use it on cds

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not sure about assa

manic pulsar Jan 24, 2017, 2:45 PM

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@strong gorge what don't you agree with in the AMR APL? I haven't done much work on it since 7.1.5 yet - was going to add in the sprint-vanish thing and draught of souls today for fun, since folks are talking about it. And, the simulation time will only be long if you choose "gearing strategy" as the simulation type - that is really going to do about 2500 simulations of varying margine of erro to create a complete gearing strategy for use with the gear optimizer. You can do smaller batches of sims or single runs if you don't want all that extra data.

strong gorge Jan 24, 2017, 2:55 PM

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@manic pulsar Sorry can't answer right now, in a meeting and then I'm leaving work. I'll try to answer tonight

marsh axle Jan 24, 2017, 4:01 PM

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does simcraft take the sin bracer effect into account?

tribal scroll Jan 24, 2017, 4:02 PM

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yes

exotic jasper Jan 24, 2017, 4:23 PM

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hey guys, i got these numbers, these scale deltas/error looks a bit weird, is this normal?

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http://imgur.com/a/YTuVU

Imgur

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet.

warped sequoia Jan 24, 2017, 4:27 PM

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( Pawn: v1: "Piratenkarl": Agility=19.04, Ap=18.19, CritRating=13.98, HasteRating=8.94, MasteryRating=16.95, Versatility=12.89, Dps=9.60 )

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is mine

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its really high aswell

obtuse fable Jan 24, 2017, 5:59 PM

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my stat weights for outlaw are much different. What gear, legendaries, and trinkets will definitely change your weights a lot

round canyon Jan 24, 2017, 6:00 PM

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shoulders/2pc/4pc are the big stat weight changers

sage jewel Jan 24, 2017, 6:47 PM

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@manic pulsar do you have a link for the simc assassination APL converted to AMR? I saw you linked the outlaw one yesterday and I've been using that since the default rerolls anything less than 2

manic pulsar Jan 24, 2017, 6:51 PM

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I don't have assassination I don't think, at least not up to date at all. Re-rolling anything less than two is the same DPS as keeping particular single buffs for outlaw - I ran a whole bunch of tests to confirm it. The update today is going to keep True Bearing just because it's not a DPS loss (although it's not a gain either).

mystic jacinth Jan 24, 2017, 6:53 PM

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is draught really that strong?

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13% of DPS O_O

proven dawn Jan 24, 2017, 6:54 PM

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Remember that draught also locks out other abilities so it needs to do a ton of damage on the breakdown to be any good at all

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% of damage for trinkets that displace other things can be highly misleading

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see cap,soul

buoyant parcel Jan 24, 2017, 7:02 PM

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Remember when soul cap used to explode into ring, which in turn would explode into soul cap, which would explode for 35 mil, good times..... goooood.....times.......

strong rune Jan 24, 2017, 7:03 PM

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pulling threat from tanks was some of my proudest moments ever

buoyant parcel Jan 24, 2017, 7:04 PM

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yeah it was the best because that combo would pull threat twice, the first cap would go off, then they'd taunt, then the second would go off and you'd have to tank it until taunt was off cd again, good thing our class is broken AF and we have evasion

mighty pawn Jan 24, 2017, 7:05 PM

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I just told the tanks I was helping them

buoyant parcel Jan 24, 2017, 7:05 PM

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"i'll take a couple stacks, dont worry i'll just cloak them off"

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👁 ❤ 🗡

sage jewel Jan 24, 2017, 7:13 PM

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Is the PTR mode on simcraft already updated for 7.2? Showing on the nightly build from a couple nights ago

buoyant sail Jan 24, 2017, 7:17 PM

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!trinkets

grand elbow Jan 24, 2017, 7:22 PM

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has anyone done a pass on trinkets with the new changes yet?

mystic jacinth Jan 24, 2017, 7:40 PM

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nightblooming frond is bad

reef canyon Jan 24, 2017, 7:40 PM

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@radiant dust Hey - first, sorry that the drop downs don't work on mobile. Fixing that is high on our list (we only have 1 dev for the whole site, so his list is long). Also, @tribal scroll In case you didn't know, the reason he wanted to use mobile was because the website will talk to the client on your desktop, so you can sim from anywhere. That makes mobile AMR super handy, once we get those drop downs working, of course 😉

mystic jacinth Jan 24, 2017, 7:40 PM

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its bugged on simcraft. the proc rate is low and the damage bonus was cut in half on live

rustic tundra Jan 24, 2017, 7:45 PM

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Did I do something wrong? http://prntscr.com/dzuoc2 Why is my haste so high?

Lightshot

Screenshot

Captured with Lightshot

celest cypress Jan 24, 2017, 7:47 PM

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is tirathon's betrayal simming correctly? in simc it is ~2% of my damage, but most lists have it very high

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it looks like it sims similarly to a equivalent ilvl agi/crit stat stick

late willow Jan 24, 2017, 7:52 PM

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@split sorrel Just got Draught of Souls and it seems like in the sim its hitting for around 175k-196k when on live its hitting for around 220k - 250k

mystic jacinth Jan 24, 2017, 7:55 PM

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how much % of your dps is the draught?

late willow Jan 24, 2017, 7:55 PM

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7%

mystic jacinth Jan 24, 2017, 7:57 PM

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dang

late willow Jan 24, 2017, 7:57 PM

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Also I am pretty sure that draught isnt affected by AP but in the sim it looks like it is.

mystic jacinth Jan 24, 2017, 7:57 PM

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it isnt?

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that sux

floral acorn Jan 24, 2017, 7:57 PM

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It ia

mystic jacinth Jan 24, 2017, 7:57 PM

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for warriors its affected by their mastery isnt it?

floral acorn Jan 24, 2017, 7:57 PM

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Is

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Unless they changed it from ptr to live

mystic jacinth Jan 24, 2017, 7:58 PM

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nerf it for all classes but warriors?

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sounds like blizzard

late willow Jan 24, 2017, 7:58 PM

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Lowest damage done by fel crazed Rage is 223k with AP and 223k without AP

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EP affects it

pallid laurel Jan 24, 2017, 8:02 PM

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Hey, I have the legi cloak that increases fok damage. how do I modify the simulation to fok once a miinute to take advantage of the proc? right now I think it only foks when there are 3 or more targets

bleak sky Jan 24, 2017, 8:03 PM

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@rustic tundra Your error bars are WAY to large

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use a higher iteration simulation

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50 or 100k

sullen dagger Jan 24, 2017, 8:05 PM

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The latest simc build seems to have frond much lower now

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About 2.5-3% of my dmg, which is much closer to live than before

iron obsidian Jan 24, 2017, 8:05 PM

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Is 50-100k really the recommended iterations?

sullen dagger Jan 24, 2017, 8:06 PM

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Urn slightly beats out frond for me now

noble pendant Jan 24, 2017, 8:07 PM

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Yes

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10k tends to be pretty off, and if you're scaling and using pawn it could be a little brutal, switching out stat priorities and such

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I personally use 100k because I have a beefy computer, 50k should be fine though

iron obsidian Jan 24, 2017, 8:09 PM

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lord

rustic tundra Jan 24, 2017, 8:09 PM

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@bleak sky ok, ty

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will try now

maiden cargo Jan 24, 2017, 8:10 PM

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dont use # of iterations

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target error %

sullen dagger Jan 24, 2017, 8:11 PM

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Which % do you set it to

rustic tundra Jan 24, 2017, 8:13 PM

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first time using, didnt set it at all

noble pendant Jan 24, 2017, 8:13 PM

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Yeah or do that @maiden cargo

manic pulsar Jan 24, 2017, 8:17 PM

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You can get to within 0.25% margin of error with between 1000 and 2000 iterations in most cases. That is more than enough accuracy to make stat weights and gearing decisions.

rotund current Jan 24, 2017, 8:18 PM

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woah, new version of simcraft put me at 267k DPS (was 497k on the version of 2 days ago)

late willow Jan 24, 2017, 8:21 PM

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Did your settings reset?

rotund current Jan 24, 2017, 8:24 PM

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nah, patchwork 1 enemy, good skill, 100ping

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the same i usually uses

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tho i got my duskwalker footpads to 940

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could it be that the sim ignore it?

late willow Jan 24, 2017, 8:25 PM

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Hmm idk I just downloaded the newest one and I sim the same

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I have 940 duskwalkers

rotund current Jan 24, 2017, 8:25 PM

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same as "severe dps loss" or "same dps rate yopu had before"?

late willow Jan 24, 2017, 8:26 PM

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nearly exact same number as build from sunday

rotund current Jan 24, 2017, 8:27 PM

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weird

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are you using the legit version or nightly build?

late willow Jan 24, 2017, 8:28 PM

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nightly

floral acorn Jan 24, 2017, 8:30 PM

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@late willow when you got those dmg #s was that from sims or ingame ?

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For DoS

late willow Jan 24, 2017, 8:31 PM

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In game

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other numbers before were from sim and ingame

floral acorn Jan 24, 2017, 8:33 PM

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Can you link me a log ?

late willow Jan 24, 2017, 8:33 PM

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Yeah let me do one real quick

floral acorn Jan 24, 2017, 8:35 PM

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And make sure it's only hitting 1 dummy with AP on it

late willow Jan 24, 2017, 8:35 PM

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yeah lol it so annoying

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Hmm.. must be something with skada because on logs it shows its hitting for more

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/N9act8TXMCn4yw1r/#type=damage-done&source=3&ability=225777&target=4&view=events

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but on skada it shows lowest hit was 223k

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AP modifier was 38%

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which is correct in logs

torn dome Jan 24, 2017, 8:44 PM

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yeh cause all player and target modifiers apply to dos

late willow Jan 24, 2017, 8:44 PM

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Well AP is good then but it still hits low in simc

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So you can see in the logs it was hitting for around 300k - 330k non crits but in simc it hits for much lower

pure sluice Jan 24, 2017, 8:48 PM

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@split sorrel , does sim over value the new legendary shoulders ? or are those bis for sub rogues ?

late willow Jan 24, 2017, 8:48 PM

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📎 unknown.png

split sorrel Jan 24, 2017, 8:50 PM

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@pure sluice bis

pure sluice Jan 24, 2017, 8:53 PM

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thanks

merry cloud Jan 24, 2017, 10:38 PM

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Some fun for Assa players with boots

I found a minor adjustment to default APL that increases damage if player has 2 or 3 MA relics and CoF. No idea how to implement in genericly into APL or if that should be done even but here are results
http://i.imgur.com/wsA4j5x.jpg
I simply used T19_NH profile, gave it CoF and legendary boots.
Change that was made - line actions.cds+=/vendetta,if=!talent.exsanguinate.enabled&energy.deficit>=88-!talent.venom_rush.enabled*10
now looks like actions.cds+=/vendetta,if=!talent.exsanguinate.enabled&energy.deficit>=88-!talent.venom_rush.enabled*10&cooldown.kingsbane.remains<3
With that in mind I decided to investigate how good CoF with boots with regard to different fight lengths. You can find album with results below. _New is the adjusted APL as described above
http://imgur.com/a/2mylf
Looks like CoF is just good overall, no specific fights that favor other choice

Imgur

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet.

rose ice Jan 24, 2017, 10:40 PM

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sorry if its a bit offtopic. but could you tell me how to get stat weights for healer with simc?

mellow siren Jan 24, 2017, 10:41 PM

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should go to ur repsective class's discord and ask that

split sorrel Jan 24, 2017, 10:41 PM

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@merry cloud talk with @wet turtle

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he's reworking Assa APL

late willow Jan 24, 2017, 10:54 PM

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Oh DoS is also a 2 min CD not 1.3min like it has in Simc

merry cloud Jan 24, 2017, 11:00 PM

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I am looking at log from Jan 21st it has 1:20 cooldown there

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@late willow https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hQXLYrqAWHBd1Gvy#fight=9&type=casts&source=113 log from today and it looks like below 2 mins

round canyon Jan 24, 2017, 11:07 PM

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@late willow @merry cloud
https://gyazo.com/bfd9f162263c5f813ae91f98a979133a

Gyazo

final ember Jan 25, 2017, 12:11 AM

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@merry cloud so you basically made the sim wait for Kingsbane to be almost up before using Vendetta, and 3 MA relics beat out 2 MA relics in this situation?

wanton shell Jan 25, 2017, 12:17 AM

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but that doesnt make sense vendetta would still come off cd after KB right?

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does CoF really take it to under 45?

twin ibex Jan 25, 2017, 12:21 AM

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Yes it does, and consistently

mystic jacinth Jan 25, 2017, 12:24 AM

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so with 3MA relics + CoF

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you can have vendetta line up with kingsbane all the time?

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without requiring boots?

final ember Jan 25, 2017, 12:26 AM

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@wanton shell Yes CoF + Boots + 3MA is about a 40 sec CD on Vendetta on average

twin ibex Jan 25, 2017, 12:27 AM

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Without boots it'll be something like 1 min 12 less 15 secs, so around 1 min Vend cd

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Won't align with KB

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@merry cloud what was the 3rd relic you used for 2MA? Rupture or Envenom damage?

placid olive Jan 25, 2017, 12:35 AM

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trying to get notes together for loot council. maybe you guys could help? How good are your guys 2 and 4 p set bonuses?

regal agate Jan 25, 2017, 12:35 AM

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lorentz only simmed with the boots

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his optimizations where targeted at boots + relics (+ cof)

late willow Jan 25, 2017, 12:37 AM

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@merry cloud https://images.discordapp.net/.eJwNxFEOgyAMANC7cAAqVAS9DUGCZtoSWrOPZXff3sf7mGdcZjOHapcNYD-l8NitKI_cqm3M7aq5n2IL35BVcznuSirgl7CGNGMKKU7RB-fBRwxudRP-m92SEOGhF_GbbKdmvj8IhiLe.SDvV0gv8vdEdugWTkXGrPIeS5Ek

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I just used it again and it was 2 mins just to be sure

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/N9act8TXMCn4yw1r/#type=damage-done&source=3&ability=225777&target=4&view=events

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Log from this morning

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Me testing it

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and my log is a rogue

torn dome Jan 25, 2017, 12:41 AM

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Last I heard it is bugged for some people

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Just like ma after the hotfix

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DoS used to have 2 min cd

late willow Jan 25, 2017, 12:42 AM

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;_; mine is 2min

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I dont like bugs in the wrong direction

final ember Jan 25, 2017, 12:42 AM

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@placid olive https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rhg8pHjgXvtlJOvHkmDj1QDV9lIrp-b8EP-BoP_cDN0/edit#gid=0

Google Docs

Nighthold T19 Set Bonus Power Rankings (Updated 2017-01-17)

Sheet1 Spec, NONE, 2 PC, 4 PC, 0 to 2PC, 2 to 4PC, 0 to 4PC Vanquisher, Druid Balance, 493426, 512795, 532698, 3. 9%, 3. 9%, 8. 0% Druid Feral, 462829, 463386, 477981, 0. 1%, 3. 1%, 3. 3% Mage Arcane, 477854, 496072, 497010, 3. 8%, 0. 2%, 4. 0% Mage Frost, 481100, 501372, 510723, 4. 2%, 1. ...

placid olive Jan 25, 2017, 12:43 AM

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@final ember ty so much just saved my life

wanton shell Jan 25, 2017, 12:50 AM

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that should help convince my guild not to give our shitty ass mages the 4set before me

maiden cargo Jan 25, 2017, 1:00 AM

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thats old

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arms, sub, hunter bonuses were nerfed

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@placid olive @wanton shell a more current sheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rhg8pHjgXvtlJOvHkmDj1QDV9lIrp-b8EP-BoP_cDN0/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0

wanton shell Jan 25, 2017, 1:03 AM

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thank you

regal agate Jan 25, 2017, 1:06 AM

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@maiden cargo you linked the exactly same sheet as 3 posts aboth

wanton shell Jan 25, 2017, 1:07 AM

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lol

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rip

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and i said thank you

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quick question about PB proccs. has anyone actually simmed or found a way to figure out if alacrity affects the rppm of PB. and if not if in some other way it makes it more likely to procc?

round canyon Jan 25, 2017, 1:09 AM

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@wanton shell it does effect it, all sources of haste do

wanton shell Jan 25, 2017, 1:09 AM

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i mean

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BTI doesnt

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memento doesnt

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i thought only flat haste increases can affect rppm

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and that only in some cases

round canyon Jan 25, 2017, 1:10 AM

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if a rppm effect is increased by haste then all sources of haste will effect it

wanton shell Jan 25, 2017, 1:10 AM

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ok then why dont sin rogues go max haste with alacrity for PB proccs

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like mast haste gear

round canyon Jan 25, 2017, 1:11 AM

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the poison bomb procs arent good enough to sacrifice other stats for haste, additionally this discussion should continue in general or something as it is not a simulation style discussion

wanton shell Jan 25, 2017, 1:11 AM

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ok lets make it one. does the current APL have the ability to predict such playstyle in order to be simmed correctly?

round canyon Jan 25, 2017, 1:12 AM

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yes in the current version of SIMC haste accurately effects the proc rate of poison bomb

wanton shell Jan 25, 2017, 1:12 AM

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because tbh you can't really be sure if it is worth to sacrifice said stats unless it's been tested right?

round canyon Jan 25, 2017, 1:12 AM

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so you can go and set that delicious mob count to 5/7/10 and adjust yourself to have more hast

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and see if it effects the outcome positively

wanton shell Jan 25, 2017, 1:12 AM

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guess i will run a full haste/mast gear sim and see the results

round canyon Jan 25, 2017, 1:12 AM

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or negatively

pallid birch Jan 25, 2017, 1:51 AM

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why do the updated legendary sims use last patches talents for assassination? or am i missing something

stiff forum Jan 25, 2017, 1:54 AM

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any1 got draught sprint macro?

final ember Jan 25, 2017, 1:56 AM

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@maiden cargo you linked the same sheet as me lol, ignore the thumbnail

round canyon Jan 25, 2017, 2:13 AM

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@stiff forum
/stopattack

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/cast sprint
/use draught of souls

sterile jolt Jan 25, 2017, 2:31 AM

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Why draught sprint?

tribal scroll Jan 25, 2017, 2:32 AM

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thraxxis i presume

sterile jolt Jan 25, 2017, 2:32 AM

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but that only affects runthrough

tribal scroll Jan 25, 2017, 2:33 AM

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oh yeah true

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idk then

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the stopattack

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lol

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its for mantle for sub

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to proc sprint vanish

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just noticed

sterile jolt Jan 25, 2017, 2:33 AM

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ahhh

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clever

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though I'm guessing not so much for mantly, more just to get extra vanish?

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since in an ideal world, you'd have mantle going before the draught

tribal scroll Jan 25, 2017, 2:35 AM

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yes

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this is more a discussion for #228878985210101760

stiff forum Jan 25, 2017, 3:29 AM

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yall know if draught works with old war

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because sprint will use vanish if draught up

merry cloud Jan 25, 2017, 3:44 AM

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@final ember correct

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@twin ibex gushing wound was 3rd relic if it's not ma

twin ibex Jan 25, 2017, 4:06 AM

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Thanks

runic basalt Jan 25, 2017, 4:19 AM

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!trinkets

dark arch Jan 25, 2017, 4:19 AM

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anyone on that can help me with relic swapping and simc?

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i suck a D at it

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main_hand=,id=128476,bonus_id=743,relic_id=1806:1507:3336/1806:1502/3417:1527:3337,gem_id=139253/139251/136721/0 with 890 version of this http://www.wowhead.com/item=140825/felfire-pitch&bonus=1487:3514

Wowhead

Felfire Pitch

This is a level 875 epic fel relic. It is looted from Krosus. In the Fel Relics category. Always up to date with the latest patch (7.1.5).

finite thunder Jan 25, 2017, 4:38 AM

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does anyone here have the enchant id for trained soldier for simcraft?

gaunt gale Jan 25, 2017, 5:03 AM

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@finite thunder 5890

onyx steeple Jan 25, 2017, 5:07 AM

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lets say you have an item in your bags that unsocketed and unenchanted, how do you sim yourself with that item but as if it were socketed/enchanted?

merry cloud Jan 25, 2017, 5:08 AM

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you add some like that ,gems=150vers,enchant=200vers by the end of item line

maiden cargo Jan 25, 2017, 5:15 AM

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I ran some sims and found that for outlaw, keeping 2 buffs if one of them is broadsides is a slight dps increase over fishing for 3 or TB. Can anyone help me confirm?

sterile jolt Jan 25, 2017, 6:08 AM

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Anyone have any ideas why Tirathons sims so high?

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It doesn't scale with vendetta

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and has never really given me much damage

stray portal Jan 25, 2017, 6:09 AM

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Not sure if this question should go here, but here goes: Does SimC overvalue the 5 extra energy from "Stabilized Energy Pendant"? It's showing it as a 4-5k dps increase over an 880 neck of comparable stats.

sterile jolt Jan 25, 2017, 6:10 AM

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My guess is yes - I noticed that too. Its extra energy on every vendetta, I can only assume the extra energy lines up with being able to use an extra GCD where you would normally pool

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but thats just a guess

stray portal Jan 25, 2017, 6:12 AM

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Oh woops. I play sub* forgot to mention. I notice in the results that the neck results have ~1.6 extra shadowstrikes. I assume this is due to being able to pool slightly more, but it seems like a rather small amount to be worth so much

sterile jolt Jan 25, 2017, 6:13 AM

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It makes sense but I wouldn't stress it

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base it on the stats

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you can probably eye ball the upgrade

stray portal Jan 25, 2017, 6:14 AM

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Yeah, I figured going from an 870 crit/vers neck to an 880 vers/mastery neck would be an upgrade...

sterile jolt Jan 25, 2017, 6:14 AM

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yeah, no brainer

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and jewellery now scales so hard

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though, my 890 haste/mast ring will forever rot in my bags

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literally good for nothing

hard hull Jan 25, 2017, 6:28 AM

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has aethys did a sim for kiljadens leg trinket

merry cloud Jan 25, 2017, 6:29 AM

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If you don't see it in spreadsheet then no

eager iris Jan 25, 2017, 7:15 AM

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Disabled in this channel - please try general ...

strong gorge Jan 25, 2017, 7:25 AM

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@manic pulsar AMR doesn't pool or have any energy rules, right?

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And with deceit, it seems to cast Shuriken Storm it outside of stealth

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And I really feel that opening with goremaw should be a damage loss, esp with bloodlust

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Later on in the fight you also probably want to prio (non convergence/bracers) SB to be active as more outside of stealth than during

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But by far the largest thing is the pooling

languid thistle Jan 25, 2017, 8:17 AM

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Does Ravenholdt have a simcraft bot that whispers you your information?

tribal scroll Jan 25, 2017, 8:20 AM

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no

long ocean Jan 25, 2017, 9:23 AM

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I dont know if this is a known issue or not, but when simming myself, with the nightly 715-02 build from earlier, to see the difference between 43 and 54 traits, I noticed that the armory import had my artifact as artifact=43:0:0:0:0:323:1:324:3:325:3:326:3:327:3:328:3:329:3:330:3:331:3:332:1:333:1:334:1:335:1:337:1:346:1:347:1:1276:1:1384:9, but when I used the artifact calculator on wowhead to make test the different traits, it showed as 43:0:0:0:0:323:3:324:3:325:3:326:3:327:3:328:3:329:3:330:3:331:3:332:1:333:1:334:1:335:1:337:1:346:1:347:1:1276:1:1384:20.
Aside from the expected difference in paragon points (9 to 20), I noticed that
it was only registering 1 of the 3 points in Toxxic Blades (323:1 vs 323:3), so envenom damage might be off by 7% in the new models. Not sure how long this has been an issue when importing a character.

regal agate Jan 25, 2017, 9:28 AM

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ye it looks wrong with that input string(ignore the highlighted one)

📎 Unbenannt.png

merry cloud Jan 25, 2017, 9:30 AM

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Dawns can you provide your armory link?

long ocean Jan 25, 2017, 9:30 AM

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http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/illidan/Dawnsx/advanced

World of Warcraft

Dawnsx @ Illidan - Community - World of Warcraft

reef canyon Jan 25, 2017, 9:56 AM

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@strong gorge AMR does have engery pooling if you want to use it. @manic pulsar might have done some tests on that in the past, I can hit him up in the morning about it.

regal agate Jan 25, 2017, 9:58 AM

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@everyone the current armory import of simcraft is buggry for assasination.
it reads 323:3 as 323:1.
this means it only uses 1 rank in Toxic Blades instead of 3.
its highly recommendet to use the ingame addon to import your character for now.
thanks to @long ocean for reporting the bug
Edit:Armory import works in the latest nightly, however not correct in the release version

#

split sorrel Jan 25, 2017, 10:12 AM

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@strong gorge @reef canyon @manic pulsar It's like run_action_list and call_action_list on SimC, when stealthed it'll always go on the sub action list. While not stealthed, it'll go in the generator one only when above a give threshold. There is no use of pool_ressource in SimC Sub APL except for Shadowmeld

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And for Shadowmeld, it could have been done with an action list, it's just that for 1 line it "wasn't worth"

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So, AFAIK there is pooling in AMR APLs. Altough, been a while since I looked at.

pliant pagoda Jan 25, 2017, 10:53 AM

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How can u sim a full set of times that u dont own;

snow tinsel Jan 25, 2017, 12:50 PM

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I find it really hard to believe that Nightblooming fond does so high in the sims, while in game its alot less impressive. Do you guys experience the same?

trail grove Jan 25, 2017, 1:32 PM

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@split sorrel Does sim apl use Vendetta and Kings together or does it just run numbers as if they were used on instantly on cooldown?

tough dirge Jan 25, 2017, 2:35 PM

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is frond still siming higher than it should ?

buoyant parcel Jan 25, 2017, 2:38 PM

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its not simming wrong, its just really unreliable

manic pulsar Jan 25, 2017, 2:52 PM

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@strong gorge Like Aethys pointed out, energy pooling can be achieved in APLs/Rotations in many different ways. You are correct that AMR does not have a built in "pool_for_next" function like SimC. Both the SimC and AMR sub rotations right now use the same structure for energy pooling. This works cleaner for sub compared to pool_for_next because multiple actions are gated behind the same energy threshold.

For comparison purposes, I created the SimC feral APL in AMR - it makes heavy use of pool_for_next. http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/rotation/b1c7a83d50744c07bfb169e81fa32b76?spec=DruidFeral&version=live&share=true In that rotation you will see "switches" with an SW icon next to them. Those are boolean variables you can use in the rotation, and I used those to effectively achieve the "pool_for_next" functionality. Not as nice as a built-in function, but the exact same functionality is created.

#

Also, I have tried not opening with Goremaw's Bite - I haven't seen any difference positive or negative on DPS.

#

Adding extra logic to shadow blades hasn't yielded me any DPS increases either, but, that of course doesn't mean there aren't optimizations to be made. If you have some more specific ideas on conditions that would yield an improvement, I'd definitely take a look. I tried adding conditions to use SB on the pull and then only if I don't have stealth - and the DPS didn't go up or down.

#

In those cases, I personally always change my rotations back to having the least number of conditions possible.

#

And, for folks interested, in our update last night I added in the Sprint-Vanish combo and also the Sprint-Draught-Vanish combo to the default rotation.

regal agate Jan 25, 2017, 3:01 PM

#

demios pointet out that using shadowblades to recharge shd is a slight gain on longer fights.
using/deleying shd didnt give me difrent results either (also not with denial and cof).
offensive sprint is a smal dps gain, its bigger with mantle and probably mroe efficient together with droughts.
if you want to optimize the apl you can try optimize the use of the finality menchanic (especialy for anticipation)or
adjust the apl to reduce the cp waste with DS.

manic pulsar Jan 25, 2017, 3:07 PM

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Yeah I tested out the offensive sprint thing and was getting a slight gain even without the mantle, so I left it in the rotation

#

I haven't done a lot of testing with the new anticipation yet - I'll put it on my list to see if I can improve handling of finality with that talent

#

Using deeper strategem I never saw much of a gain worrying about it

regal agate Jan 25, 2017, 3:08 PM

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the cp waste with 4p(+coF) is high, thats why using anticipation gives you better results however optimizing the waste of cp may end up in ds beeing better (not as a talent choice but output wise)

shadow knot Jan 25, 2017, 3:12 PM

#

Not sure the offensive sprint will become a thing without mantle though. NH needs quite a lot of mobility and has its fair share of raid-wide damage, making sprint not proc vanish.

regal agate Jan 25, 2017, 3:13 PM

#

also with those optimization the question about the best talent choice reminds.
Anticipation scales the Finality buff up to 40% for evi but only 20% for NB while DS scales both up to 24% with a base increse of 5% (makes it ~30% for both with 5% boost base stuff(non finality usages))(assuming optimal usage ofc)

shadow knot Jan 25, 2017, 3:15 PM

#

tbf with how NH is made, the 4pc and the NH relics I could see 2SS2finisher shadow dances being used, and Nightbane/Crit relics instead of EStab

regal agate Jan 25, 2017, 3:15 PM

#

1 ES + 2 dps relics (f.ex. gutripper) simmed the best since ages

#

the gain from offensive sprint in raw numbers is lower then 1% dps (without shoulders)

#

using sprint offensively also requires good timing and is like you sayed encounter dependent but this discussion is better fitting in #228878985210101760

vague estuary Jan 25, 2017, 3:21 PM

#

Uhm.. SnD and RtB sims almost exactly the same for me, using askmrrobot

manic pulsar Jan 25, 2017, 3:21 PM

#

Your relics, talents, gear will affect how close SnD and RtB sim to each other

vague estuary Jan 25, 2017, 3:22 PM

#

RTB
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/f5bb7cdececd4bec9ce92861a0f00e11
SND
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/5425dbe1f9604a72bc08b5b66db1e501

round canyon Jan 25, 2017, 3:22 PM

#

additionally the AMR APL is less refined than the simcraft one and can result in strange things occuring

vague estuary Jan 25, 2017, 3:22 PM

#

Currently scaling in simcraft now

#

23k difference. RTB leading.

manic pulsar Jan 25, 2017, 3:23 PM

#

Loktark - I'd challenge that... I put the SimC APL into AMR and got almost identical results

round canyon Jan 25, 2017, 3:23 PM

#

thats simply not the case

manic pulsar Jan 25, 2017, 3:24 PM

#

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/rotation/b214379b10cd4b50b909ae83c44eb04b?spec=RogueOutlaw&version=live&share=true

round canyon Jan 25, 2017, 3:24 PM

#

with your outlaw Simc copy APL that runs through AMR that you sent me they handle certain things differently

manic pulsar Jan 25, 2017, 3:24 PM

#

try it out if you'd like

round canyon Jan 25, 2017, 3:24 PM

#

especially in the category of combo point waste

manic pulsar Jan 25, 2017, 3:24 PM

#

well, that's just the difference in how the two simulators work

#

they are not identical models of the game

#

the results are very, very close though

#

between the two simulators, using the same rotation

regal agate Jan 25, 2017, 3:25 PM

#

both tools have difrent aproaches and give therefore difrent results. its up to the task and personal taste what to use

manic pulsar Jan 25, 2017, 3:26 PM

#

that's my philosophy as well

vague estuary Jan 25, 2017, 3:26 PM

#

snd vs rtb

📎 simc.jpg

#

ill try snd in normal nh today. see how it works. easier to sustain snd than rtb

#

probably boring as hell tho 😉

round canyon Jan 25, 2017, 3:29 PM

#

@manic pulsar does the simc copy not perform pre fight actions?

manic pulsar Jan 25, 2017, 3:29 PM

#

It does. In the included rotation.

vague estuary Jan 25, 2017, 3:30 PM

#

btw, the only reason snd sims higher is due to frond i think.

#

10%%

manic pulsar Jan 25, 2017, 3:31 PM

#

Is simc scaling it right per stack? AMR numbers are based on some tests we did. Need to test again after hotfix yesterday.

vague estuary Jan 25, 2017, 3:33 PM

#

do i need to download a new simc after each hotfix?

tribal scroll Jan 25, 2017, 3:34 PM

#

updating with the nightly build is a good idea, yes

vague estuary Jan 25, 2017, 3:36 PM

#

where can i get latest updates?

#

found it in pinned

tribal scroll Jan 25, 2017, 3:37 PM

#

yep

#

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D

vague estuary Jan 25, 2017, 3:38 PM

#

ty anyway 😃

#

what is different in it?

#

also, how can i see what build i'm currently using?

#

found it also

#

"git build" right?

regal agate Jan 25, 2017, 3:43 PM

#

@edgy breach can you be a bit more specific about "stack"

torn dome Jan 25, 2017, 3:44 PM

#

simc does seem to model frond stacking correctly
But it doesnt model player and/or target modifiers like ago correctly

tiny echo Jan 25, 2017, 3:45 PM

#

@torn dome frond still same right?

#

blizz did not change

torn dome Jan 25, 2017, 3:46 PM

#

what same

#

it was changed once from ptr to live

vague estuary Jan 25, 2017, 3:48 PM

#

seems like 23k lower with new build. 600k now with snd.

tiny echo Jan 25, 2017, 3:49 PM

#

blizz said yerterday oatch they are taking a closer look

#

still bad for me :/

lost gale Jan 25, 2017, 4:52 PM

#

Is there a way to allocate more CPU usage to simulationcraft?

maiden cargo Jan 25, 2017, 4:57 PM

#

risking that this question was already answered: which options do you consider as useful when simulation for myth+? HelterSkelter or AddCleave, multiple targets?

regal agate Jan 25, 2017, 5:26 PM

#

@lost gale you can set set process prio and used threads in the settings menue(options - general tab)

dusty marlin Jan 25, 2017, 5:53 PM

#

hmm i wanna sim 940 shoulders vs 940 ravenholdt im guessing the shoulders will overtake but do anyone know how to swap id so the ilvl go up? finger2=,id=137049 is for raven for example

maiden cargo Jan 25, 2017, 6:09 PM

#

any idea why SIMC puts kingsbane as first source of dmg but that doesnt reflect my live dmg?

#

nvm wrong plot

wind otter Jan 25, 2017, 7:50 PM

#

seems like krosus cannot be hit by the "acranogolem digit"'s damage

#

anyone can confirm that?

#

didnt get a single procc in two separate 4min tries

#

may also be a range problem, as you stand relatively far away from the boss

torn dome Jan 25, 2017, 7:54 PM

#

yes

#

too far away

#

wrong channel tho

steel moss Jan 25, 2017, 8:18 PM

#

so is frond good still ?

robust solar Jan 25, 2017, 8:40 PM

#

how do you sim relics? I cant seem to figure it out

dark arch Jan 25, 2017, 8:40 PM

#

^

#

story of my life lol

reef canyon Jan 25, 2017, 8:49 PM

#

@robust solar In the AMR simulator, just click on the relic slot to swap it. It's the 3rd tip on the left of this image http://i.imgur.com/r2gpuBW.jpg

#

Note: I believe we have to update the site for the frond proc nerf. Just fyi if you're comparing that. It will be updated tonight.

robust solar Jan 25, 2017, 8:51 PM

#

@dark arch https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pW5mWY9nkfWoRCOHfoXqeeGb8s-jMoSVy-g8uveUv4c/preview

Google Docs

SYOC – Short tutorial

Sim Your Own Char Introduction I am Skasch, a rogue playing in Quichons (Elune-EU) and a theorycrafting lover. You can easily find me on the different WoW class Discord chans. Don’t hesitate to mention me or message me directly if you have any question! This guide is to explain step by step how ...

#

#4 @dark arch

dark arch Jan 25, 2017, 8:53 PM

#

thanks

bleak sky Jan 25, 2017, 11:56 PM

#

Whoever is providing a nightly OSX build is my hero

#

Nameless hero

exotic pond Jan 26, 2017, 12:01 AM

#

actions.precombat+=/food,name=nightbourne_delicacy_platter
was is wrong with that line?

#

nvm found it myself 😛

alpine dew Jan 26, 2017, 12:59 AM

#

hey guys, i simed my char and it says i should do around 393k but the best i can manage is 330k, where in 393k 16907 dps is from potion of old war which i dont use, do you guys know what i should do to make my real dps higher?

#

i know theres little chance i will reach to around 380k but making it to 340-350 would be good for starter

onyx steeple Jan 26, 2017, 1:24 AM

#

how do you find the item # for an item that you didn't equip yet

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 1:25 AM

#

@onyx steeple all item id numbers can be found on wowhead

reef canyon Jan 26, 2017, 1:30 AM

#

@alpine dew what are you comparing the damage to? A specific boss fight or a target dummy?

alpine dew Jan 26, 2017, 1:38 AM

#

target dummy and also bosses like ursoc

#

on both cant manage to make more than stable 330

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 1:39 AM

#

i would suggest posting a log of your fight against a dummy or ursoc

#

people are more than willing to assist you with things you may be doing wrong in your rotation

#

if you play outlaw you can feel free to send me a log and ill look over it to help you get your damage closer to your simulated value

alpine dew Jan 26, 2017, 1:48 AM

#

hmm, im using simulationcraft (not sure if there are other types of this programme), does it simulate what my dps would be like on dummies?

#

if yes then i managed to make it to around stable 360k-370k

stark moon Jan 26, 2017, 1:50 AM

#

hey, loktark

#

I sent you a message, about to message ya with some logs too

reef canyon Jan 26, 2017, 2:23 AM

#

@alpine dew Do you have a recent ursoc sim, from after tuesday's patch? I have the ursoc fight in AMR, which is very similar to the patchwerk fight in SimC. What I like to do is set the fight length to match the log, along with all of the gear, relics, bloodlust timing, potions, etc. Then look at the spell usage count for each spell, and see where you might be losing damage.

small crystal Jan 26, 2017, 2:55 AM

#

this is probably dumb, but where do we modify food buffs or potions used in simcraft?

regal agate Jan 26, 2017, 2:56 AM

#

in the input string just replace them

small crystal Jan 26, 2017, 2:58 AM

#

not familiar with what the input string is

#

as in the simulation string that you put in?

#

📎 unknown.png

regal agate Jan 26, 2017, 2:59 AM

#

the apl is missing from it

#

go to your result and open up the "profile" point

small crystal Jan 26, 2017, 2:59 AM

#

ya i've been fumbling around looking for what to modify and haven't seen anything that looks right

rustic coyote Jan 26, 2017, 3:00 AM

#

Has anyone simmed Entwined Elemental Foci yet?

small crystal Jan 26, 2017, 3:03 AM

#

thanks fuu

regal agate Jan 26, 2017, 3:03 AM

#

copy everything from "profile".
paste it and make changes in the line:
actions.precombat+=/food,name=NAME_OF_THE_FOOD_YOU_WANT
and
actions.precombat+=/potion,name=NAME_OF_POTION
the name of food and potion is the same as ingame but uses underline as seperator

small crystal Jan 26, 2017, 3:03 AM

#

ya i'm seeing how to use this

flint mason Jan 26, 2017, 3:04 AM

#

does anyone knows why bracers /boots are always behind ring/boots, got the bracers today and i been trying to sim with a lot of diferent boss kill timers and they all end up with ring in first, shoulnt bracer be higher with longer fights?

small crystal Jan 26, 2017, 3:09 AM

#

i'll have to sim old war on pull and then prolonged power later

alpine dew Jan 26, 2017, 4:10 AM

#

@reef canyon somehow managed to improve it, doing around 370k now 😃

fringe vault Jan 26, 2017, 5:31 AM

#

Hey guys and gals if I want to test other relics for my swords with simcraft do I only need to adjust the relic_ids?

#

in this string

#

main_hand=,id=128872,bonus_id=742,relic_id=3514:1472:1813/1807:1487:3337/3414:1517:3336,gem_id=140819/139261/137365/0

maiden cargo Jan 26, 2017, 5:32 AM

#

you adjust gem id for the id of the relic

#

then relic id for the bonus of it

fringe vault Jan 26, 2017, 5:33 AM

#

Thanks

reef canyon Jan 26, 2017, 5:50 AM

#

@alpine dew Glad to hear it!! That's the goal you were reaching for too, right? 😃

bleak heart Jan 26, 2017, 5:51 AM

#

Is CoF modeled correctly in Simcraft? I have boots and 3x MA, and at equal ilvl I am showing a 10k dps loss equipping it over either entwined elemental foci or a crit eye of guarm.

#

From anecdotal testing up to 500m damage on a target dummy though it's definitely an increase to equip it over either.

maiden cargo Jan 26, 2017, 6:15 AM

#

Is there a change we need to do for draught of souls simming?

strong gorge Jan 26, 2017, 7:12 AM

#

Well, you need to use it. If you just change from a passive trinket to DoS without regenerating an APL it'll likely not be using it.
Also there's probably quite a lot of optimization on when you use it you can play around with.

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 7:13 AM

#

I added a quick line for DoS as Subtlety, but it's likely it need improvement on all 3 APL for the On Use usage since this one need to be used On CD.

alpine mist Jan 26, 2017, 7:13 AM

#

did anyone sim a profile with CoF + 3 MA relics since the kingsbane "bug" was found? i guess its worth to wait for kingsbane or switch one MA relic for rupture/envenom. If not, how can i change the vendetta line to sync it with kingsbane?

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 7:14 AM

#

Also, will have a look at Sprint / DoS someday.

strong gorge Jan 26, 2017, 7:14 AM

#

@manic pulsar Thanks. I have to admit I only looked at what you call "Rotation" in the result and compared it to the log generated. And it looked like quite many cases where it uses SD, ends up at ~80 energy after being used. And then being <20 energy starved for using the 4th (and in some cases even 3rd) Shadow Strike

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 7:14 AM

#

Since both are 3s channeled on SimC, I'm not sure if I should modifiy the sprint offensive according to this, or hardcoding some thing to trigger it;

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 8:05 AM

#

Question for the peanut gallery here: does Goremaw's Bite give energy back continuously, or discretely?

#

I.e. 30 energy in six seconds, or is it 5 energy at 1s, 5 energy at 2s, etc

maiden cargo Jan 26, 2017, 8:10 AM

#

id imagine discretely because game mechanics have a tick rate when they are over time effects

#

what that interval is, not sure

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 8:10 AM

#

I don't think it's working right, but I want to test a bit more.

#

I'm playing around with updating the sub APL for anticipation, because I think it might be optimizable pretty aggressively

#

Closing the loop: it's five energy each second, for six seconds.

#

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/rmJMv4h91G3HNwcZ/#type=resources&spell=103&view=events&start=2621&end=51405

spark night Jan 26, 2017, 8:21 AM

#

Do the nightly builds that we use cover all classes for simming

#

or just rogues?

strong gorge Jan 26, 2017, 8:30 AM

#

All

lofty lily Jan 26, 2017, 8:40 AM

#

@strong rune what do u want to change for sub anticipation APL?

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 8:45 AM

#

putting in quite a few conditionals, tweaking the sprint stuff, extra micro-complexity around goremaw's bite when CP are coming

#

at a high level, imo, sub is all about correct combo point management

#

because in a sense, using your finishers gives energy back, so you can directly turn CP efficiency into energy efficiency

#

taking advantage of the anticipation bug too

#

i.e. something like an actual cycle becomes meaningful

#

9-10 CP eviscerates followed by 4-5 CP eviscerates is the equivalent of an extra 20% damage on both, on average

dense valley Jan 26, 2017, 8:47 AM

#

Is the frond simming correctly or abit higher than it should ? It only does 1-2% of My dmg everyone. I can send logs etc if that helps

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 8:47 AM

#

frond seems to be high variance right now

dense valley Jan 26, 2017, 8:50 AM

#

Ye is it still worth having or shall i swap it ?

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 8:51 AM

#

unclear; depends on how highly you value consistency

regal agate Jan 26, 2017, 8:51 AM

#

why is using 9-10cp folowed by 4-5 cp an equivalent of 20% extra damage on both that doesent seems right

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 8:51 AM

#

10CP puts your into 40% finality on the next one

dense valley Jan 26, 2017, 8:52 AM

#

Well since im mythic progressing now i think about swapping it for 880 Angerboda or urn

#

Its 890

#

And already got socketed cof

regal agate Jan 26, 2017, 8:52 AM

#

ah okay you mean generaly not in relation to using it on 5 cp

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 8:52 AM

#

yeah, fuu.

dense valley Jan 26, 2017, 8:52 AM

#

Its sims like 25k higher than urn but not sure tbh

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 8:53 AM

#

interesting thought experiment on mantle-openers as sub

#

assuming MoS and Anticipation

#

SS, SS, SS, Goremaw's bite. If you got an ES proc, immediately evis, evis

#

if you did not get an es proc, just pool for a very short time

#

you can consistently fit both eviscerates into 100% crit window

#

no rng

#

then you just dance as per usual

#

doesn't require boots or anything

#

it delays nightblade by a couple of GCDs over the standard stuff, but I'd imagine two super-buffed eviscerates might be worth more

regal agate Jan 26, 2017, 8:58 AM

#

shadowblades-ss(3)-ss(3)-gorens(3)-finish(9-10)-finish(4-5) would probably be better

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 8:58 AM

#

hmm, because they're both buffed with MOS?

#

that gets them both in during the 5s window

regal agate Jan 26, 2017, 8:58 AM

#

becouse both finisher fit into the mantle buff

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 8:59 AM

#

both finishers do already fit into the mantle buff, though 😉

#

even without blades

#

want a gif?

regal agate Jan 26, 2017, 8:59 AM

#

wasnt it 5 secs on opener?

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 8:59 AM

#

5s after the first GCD spell

#

so it ends up being 6

#

as in, you can fit 6 GCDs with 100% crit

regal agate Jan 26, 2017, 9:00 AM

#

okay that was my mistake then^^

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 9:00 AM

#

that being said, you might not be wrong

#

because they do NOT fit into the 10% MOS window

vivid lagoon Jan 26, 2017, 9:00 AM

#

Do u get subterfuge from Sprint vanish trait?

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 9:00 AM

#

you do, yes

#

it's the old vanish bug from wod 😉

#

sub/bug/feature

vivid lagoon Jan 26, 2017, 9:01 AM

#

Would it be Worth it to presprint?

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 9:01 AM

#

possibly

#

hmm.

vivid lagoon Jan 26, 2017, 9:01 AM

#

To get 3 more extra seconds for shoulders buff

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 9:01 AM

#

i'd conjecture that one is not worth it, napkin-math

#

you'd much rather have that sprint later in the fight

#

well, i don't know about much rather but this is feelycraft without data, sorry

#

just thinking about abusing 100% crit

#

anticipation definitely makes things more interesting

#

whole thing feels like a giant puzzle

regal agate Jan 26, 2017, 9:05 AM

#

the difrence to DS on the opener shouldnt be high

#

the finisher damage is 470% for DS and 480% for anticipation (from my napkin math)(during opener with mantle)

unkempt hedge Jan 26, 2017, 9:15 AM

#

does anyone know if the trinket buffs are implemented in a simc nightly build yet

small hill Jan 26, 2017, 9:42 AM

#

after a bit of optimization tonight i think shoulders might be simming low

#

on sub

#

i'm simming at 555k and was fairly consistently hitting 585k on krosus using sprint on cd and with no add padding

#

totally possible that was just variance in ES procs tho

regal agate Jan 26, 2017, 9:46 AM

#

apl is not perfectly optimized for mantle yet so better results then simming arent wrong

flint mason Jan 26, 2017, 10:30 AM

#

does anyone knows why bracers /boots are always behind ring/boots, got the bracers today and i been trying to sim with a lot of diferent boss kill timers and they all end up with ring in first, shoulnt bracer be higher with longer fights?

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 10:30 AM

#

insignia is a little bit off on SimC with Vendetta

#

and this little bit thing makes it looks like better

#

and tbh, in progress, bracers are better even if insignia was ahead (except in cleave situation)

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 10:35 AM

#

I just put together a weakaura to track Mantle Sprint eligibility

#

i.e. if you sprint and something ruins your sprint

#

it will show hat

#

would anyone else want this, or is it non-useful?

#

(if you take damage)

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 10:35 AM

#

yes @strong rune

flint mason Jan 26, 2017, 10:35 AM

#

yea that's what i though, i just wanted to try and get a boss timer so i can use as reference so i can decide what bosses should i go with ring or bracers

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 10:36 AM

#

post it in theorycrafting to spread it imo since it's a hot subject atm

mellow siren Jan 26, 2017, 10:37 AM

#

front really sucks

#

only doing 2% dmg

#

frond*

#

for sub

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 10:39 AM

#

@odd sedge - I also play outlaw 😃

flint mason Jan 26, 2017, 10:40 AM

#

was realy disapointed with frond, first was happy to get a 900+socket one, but then after seeing his damage 😔

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 10:40 AM

#

I think sub is the most interesting spec with the most potential for exploration still.

#

There are minor things that can be done for assassination, for sure, but other folks are more competent and working on those better than I could.

vague estuary Jan 26, 2017, 11:04 AM

#

Frond is really random. Sometimes 2% and other times 10%

dense valley Jan 26, 2017, 12:21 PM

#

What i was thinking is

#

If u look at sim ur haste value goes close to 10 atleast for me

#

So frond might be alot better if u actually starts to get some haste ? Thats just a thought , thoughts @split sorrel

#

The problem with frond atm might be that we skip haste entierly as assa so get some haste if you have might higher the frond alot , havnt Done that math tho

velvet ibex Jan 26, 2017, 12:41 PM

#

Do we have any info on DoS for sub? Like coupling it with sprint and shit, how does it fair against other trinkets

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 12:44 PM

#

BiS

velvet ibex Jan 26, 2017, 12:46 PM

#

sooo I'm guessing CoF and DoS? Also I'm guessing depending on the situation I shoudn't always wait with sprint vanish to pair them since there are times where we can take 3secs of downtime esp with anticipation

raw agate Jan 26, 2017, 12:51 PM

#

anyone know why i sim more with simc-addon import than armory import? are the profiles different or what? I have double checked that both have same gear and same prepot/food. Is the apl different somehow?

modern aurora Jan 26, 2017, 12:53 PM

#

look at the pinned post from @regal agate

raw agate Jan 26, 2017, 12:54 PM

#

@modern aurora thanks. i shouldve checked that before asking

cerulean junco Jan 26, 2017, 1:14 PM

#

are you required to put an apl in your simulate profile? i thought it just pulls the latest one automatically when nothing is provided.

#

and you only need it to change things like food

modern aurora Jan 26, 2017, 1:16 PM

#

@cerulean junco you can change everything if you want but mostly for testing purposes like trying to find a better opener for your character setup

snow tinsel Jan 26, 2017, 1:17 PM

#

So I got nightblooming front for assassination yesterday, and i'm not really hyped about the damage I get from it. Why does it Sim so high?

cerulean junco Jan 26, 2017, 1:17 PM

#

but the profile createt by !simc addon is sufficient, right?

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 1:17 PM

#

APL is automatically grabbed

#

when there is none

inland comet Jan 26, 2017, 1:40 PM

#

@split sorrel from my last simulation MP+Alacrity is the best build for single and multiple targets fights... what do you think?

torn dome Jan 26, 2017, 1:41 PM

#

update simc

inland comet Jan 26, 2017, 1:42 PM

#

i have 715 02

torn dome Jan 26, 2017, 1:42 PM

#

if you want accurate you use nightly builds

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 1:43 PM

#

if you want accurate, one 1 day because I'm updating several things

pallid tapir Jan 26, 2017, 1:45 PM

#

how much mastery do you have?

inland comet Jan 26, 2017, 1:46 PM

#

me?

pallid tapir Jan 26, 2017, 1:46 PM

#

yup

inland comet Jan 26, 2017, 1:47 PM

#

129% up to 150% changing rings

pallid tapir Jan 26, 2017, 1:47 PM

#

with 150% which build sims higher?

#

I am curious to which build will sim higher with really high amounts of mastery

inland comet Jan 26, 2017, 1:49 PM

#

today i try simming MP+Alacrity for 3 target and is clearly better fore aoe

#

than i do for 1 target

#

and is still better than MP+Vigor+Ago

#

that's a surprise for me

pallid tapir Jan 26, 2017, 1:52 PM

#

for now, for any 2+ enemy fight alacrity seems better, I do believe with the set ap scales much better for single target

#

I don't know how to sim properly the scaling in dmg for each build tho

#

maybe the mastery + haste combo can end up beating ap? no idea

#

altho alacrity also loses more dmg from doing mechanics

maiden cargo Jan 26, 2017, 1:56 PM

#

@split sorrel do you know of anyway to test openers in simc, perhaps a cast sequence and very short fight length?

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 1:57 PM

#

you can yes

inland comet Jan 26, 2017, 2:30 PM

#

ok... maybe is better for me that i have legg boots? :V

#

more haste more energy

#

faster reduction of vendetta cd

frozen mauve Jan 26, 2017, 2:35 PM

#

are the 2p and 4p bonus included in simming?

inland comet Jan 26, 2017, 2:35 PM

#

no i haveo only 1p

frozen mauve Jan 26, 2017, 2:36 PM

#

it was a general question :>

wanton shell Jan 26, 2017, 3:41 PM

#

@split sorrel sorry for bugging you do we have any recent results on relic choice with 2/4p for sin? cause ive seen stuff all over the place. even putting master alchemist ahead of MA

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 3:41 PM

#

Master Alchemist isn't a bad relic.

wanton shell Jan 26, 2017, 3:42 PM

#

but is it ahead of vendetta ones?

#

!relics

#

wrong channel

#

sorry

#

i thought i was talking in general

#

gonna take it there

toxic crypt Jan 26, 2017, 3:43 PM

#

the thing is it depends on fights, are your fights long where you can multiple cast vendeta then MA > MAL

#

and legendary boots

#

i see several rogues just sticking with 3 MA relics irrespectively just bcos of a short cooldown

#

approx ~~ 1 min cooldown with CoF / (And godbless legendary boots) is a good dps % increase

wanton shell Jan 26, 2017, 3:44 PM

#

i have the boots

toxic crypt Jan 26, 2017, 3:44 PM

#

then 3 MA hands down

wanton shell Jan 26, 2017, 3:44 PM

#

and pretty decently leveled relics

#

also got priority on next cof

#

would it still be over GW?

toxic crypt Jan 26, 2017, 3:45 PM

#

yes

#

i dont have the boots i am sticking with 2 MA and 1 GW

fading geode Jan 26, 2017, 3:46 PM

#

Guys , What do you think about Draught of Souls

toxic crypt Jan 26, 2017, 3:46 PM

#

From guldan?

fading geode Jan 26, 2017, 3:46 PM

#

Yep

#

For Sin rogue

toxic crypt Jan 26, 2017, 3:46 PM

#

For assassination @split sorrel has an updated list of good trinkets

#

!trinkets

#

!trinket

#

https://goo.gl/pTO6a3

Rogue DPS Guide

Rogue Trinket Simluations & Rankings

Assassination Outlaw Subtlety Sim Credit goes to Aethys#5243 on discord. His site http://simc.aethys.eu/ contains many more simulations Note: Nightblooming Frond is currently simming higher than it should be. Draught and CoF are most likely better. Assassination (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); Created with Highcharts 4.2.3

wanton shell Jan 26, 2017, 3:47 PM

#

i mean

#

nightblooming cant be right

#

unless it uses the ptr version

#

ah tehre is a note

#

ye

#

also another long standing question. do the bracers make BTI better or are they mutually exclusive? again sorry for asking here but noone else seems to give answers this early in the day

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:02 PM

#

if I wanted to sim a new relic, specifically this one http://www.wowdb.com/items/140816-fingernail-of-the-fel-brute?bonusIDs=3516 what would I need to change on my relic line in simc, the way its set up is a bit confusing main_hand=,id=128870,bonus_id=741,relic_id=1806:1502/1806:1502/3454:1472,gem_id=139251/139261/143524/0

#

http://www.wowdb.com/items/139261-tuft-of-ironfur?bonusIDs=1806 thats the relic i'd be replacing if that helps

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:09 PM

#

I think that you change the gem_id fro 139261 to 140816, then change the bonus ids from 1806:1502 to 1487:3516

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:11 PM

#

for future reference because i'd like to be able to figure it out for others, wheres the 1487 come from?

primal ore Jan 26, 2017, 5:11 PM

#

im simming by far highest with frond and entwined 890

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:11 PM

#

i can see the 3516 as the bonus id

primal ore Jan 26, 2017, 5:11 PM

#

even more then covergance or urn

#

ppl saying entwined is shit tho?

#

feel like it procs often..

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:25 PM

#

Melko, it might work without the 1487, I'm not totally sure.

#

I got the IDs from the UI on AMR. We show the gem id and all associated bonus ids on the tooltip

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:28 PM

#

I've been poking around trying to figure it out, I think it should be 1487:3514 for an 890 normal warforged, but just 3516 for the baseline hc

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 5:28 PM

#

you can set the ilvl with relic_ilevel= if you prefer

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:29 PM

#

which part would you replace to do that?

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 5:31 PM

#

main_hand=,id=128870,bonus_id=741,relic_ilevel=880/880/880/0,gem_id=139251/139261/143524/0

#

for example

#

gem_id is the itemID of the relic

#

ilevel is its ilevel

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:32 PM

#

got it, thanks for the help

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 5:33 PM

#

also, use a nightly

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:33 PM

#

yea I got the most recent one just a few minutes ago

maiden cargo Jan 26, 2017, 5:34 PM

#

actually dunno as Sub if the Nightblooming Frond hc version is fine (like in the simcraft resoults) or if it's just a simulationcraft bug that shows an higther dmg despite of the recent buffs to the other trinkets

#

but i think it's fine going with a Nightblooming Frond 890 and an angerboda 890

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:35 PM

#

with the most recent nightly build frond is simming lower than cof and drought, so you might want to get that if you havent

maiden cargo Jan 26, 2017, 5:35 PM

#

ah

#

even as sub?

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:36 PM

#

i'm not sure, i don't play sub

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:37 PM

#

I had someone do some testing of frond for me in-game, and the damage on it is higher than the spell data suggests. I'm not sure if SimC is accounting for that or not. I have a multiplier on it in the AMR simulator for now.

#

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/mechanic/item/140802/nightbloomingfrond?spec=RogueSubtlety&version=live

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:37 PM

#

but the value of frond seems to have been adjusted, so results for sub may be different also

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:37 PM

#

The tests showed it about 36% higher than the average value the spell data indicates.

#

at least, that is what is matching logs right now

#

If anyone else wants to give me more tests, I'll try to confirm the damage. I had a demon hunter test it for me.

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:39 PM

#

i've been using it since last wednesday and the variance is fairly massive

#

i have an 880 version and the damage it deals varies between 2% and 10%

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:39 PM

#

the piece of information i would need to verify it

#

is if you hit a boss dummy, how much damage does the first hit do

#

best to test it naked, to avoid any multipliers

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:41 PM

#

thats going to be hard to test, stopping your autoattack after a single hit is going to require some pretty good reactions

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:41 PM

#

you don't need to stop it

#

just tell me how much damage the first hit did

#

after that it just scales up 50% per hit

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:42 PM

#

12366

#

but i assume that will vary with your AP and weapon ilvl

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:43 PM

#

no, it doesn't scale with AP

#

just item level

#

880 frond?

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:43 PM

#

yes

#

with nothing on, just the trinket and weapons

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:43 PM

#

can you take weapon off?

#

do it bare knuckle

#

do it bare knuckle

#

so you don't get artifact damage multiplier

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:45 PM

#

it doesn't proc

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:45 PM

#

ah, ok

#

then i just need to know how many points you have in it

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:45 PM

#

ah no wait

#

was just taking ages, hang on

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:45 PM

#

1rppm ftw

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:48 PM

#

11588

#

its a lot less than 1 RPPM with no weapons equipped lol

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:49 PM

#

are you sub?

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:49 PM

#

sin

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:50 PM

#

ah, ok, then yeah that adds up to what I have right now

#

in the simulator

#

seems like the first hit is about 36% higher than what you'd get out of the item data

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:51 PM

#

so simcraft is actually undervalueing it?

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:51 PM

#

I don't know for sure - would have to ask @split sorrel if they have adjusted it or not to account for this

hallow gull Jan 26, 2017, 5:52 PM

#

the issue i have with it is that its so erratic, the variance from fight to fight is massive

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:52 PM

#

yeah, low rppm trinkets are like that

#

lots of people don't like them for that reason

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 5:53 PM

#

only thing we do besides using spell data is the 50% malus per stack

#

I assume this 36% dmg increase is from an hotfix ?

#

Well, rather stealth hotfix ?

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 5:54 PM

#

I don't know - I haven't seen it actually show up in the game data

#

I've just had to reverse it from logs

#

and tests

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 6:09 PM

#

ok ok

#

A guildmate got it, will ask him to do some dummy tests

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 6:14 PM

#

cool, let me know if you see anything different than what I'm seeing

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 6:33 PM

#

@manic pulsar 13545 vs 13543 dmg

#

on first hit

#

13545 vs 13544

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 6:33 PM

#

what item level?

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 6:33 PM

#

http://pastebin.com/1UUDh800

Pastebin

shaman="Taêl" level=110 race=pandaren region=eu server=elune rol...

#

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/13aYvNPrDLpGzZnT/#type=damage-done&source=1

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 6:40 PM

#

so, how is SimC calculating the damage of the proc?

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 6:40 PM

#

the first one ?

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 6:40 PM

#

since when I look in the spell data SimC has, I see an average of 2.12

#

and then item level 895 is a budget of 3938

#

so that is 8348 base

#

and this player has 14.5% damage from artifact, so that puts it at 9558

#

where does the rest of the damage come from?

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 6:42 PM

#

I didn't coded it, I just hotfixed the 50% thing on each stack

#

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/legion-dev/engine/player/sc_unique_gear_x7.cpp#L1409

GitHub

simulationcraft/simc

simc - Simulationcraft engine/GUI

#

might be some things from shaman

errant meadow Jan 26, 2017, 6:49 PM

#

Hi outlaw here can someone tell me how come the sim says like 100k more dps than i can possibly do? like 470 sim i do 370 (With a lot of luck on rolls)

errant meadow Jan 26, 2017, 7:23 PM

#

got a pastebin http://pastebin.com/DUi3DpyX

Pastebin

rogue="Souldeleter" level=110 race=blood_elf region=eu server=sa...

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:24 PM

#

a link to a log of you playing outlaw will be far more helpful than a link to your simulation

#

in all likelyhood your making a few mistakes that are costing you dps

#

or your compared a single target patchwerk sim to a fight that doesnt allow for 100% uptime

errant meadow Jan 26, 2017, 7:26 PM

#

im am comparing with me on dummy (no BL though but it cant be so much)

#

ill get the logs

#

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/HhC1NgRDPLcGxbBa/#pins=0%24Separate%24%23244F4B%24damage%240%240.0.0.Any%2488354778.0.0.Rogue%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%240&type=damage-done this is guldan

#

should i get other boss maybe? should have all nighthold

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:28 PM

#

yo @round canyon

#

The bug with mastery negative scaling was fixed. It can be traced back to blade flurry's implementation deferring the scheduling of damage to later

#

the literaly most recent commit solves this problem

#

navv did some good digging

#

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/5835edceb6ef403a478a1b462b86ee8b4e22160c

GitHub

[Rogue] Fix Outlaw mastery scaling when using Blade Flurry · sim...

simc - Simulationcraft engine/GUI

#

Anyways, I used the exact profile I had been using to test the bug and this confirms to fix it

split sorrel Jan 26, 2017, 7:31 PM

#

Yes I wasn't able to fully understand what was going on, but the addition of RT into BF made that schedule issue. Navv helped us 😃

rocky coyote Jan 26, 2017, 7:31 PM

#

are there any sims for race choices for Sin rogues

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:35 PM

#

the impact here is actually pretty substantial - @split sorrel, we might need to re-run all the multiple target stuff for outlaw

before the fix:
http://pastebin.com/cth8iVjw

after the fix:
http://pastebin.com/dEffETsu

Pastebin

SimulationCraft 715-02 for World of Warcraft 7.1.5 Live (wow bui...

Pastebin

Simulating... ( iterations=1000000, threads=4, target_error=0.50...

#

take a look at the magnitude of that fix

#

on the order of 16% for that particular configuration, in the low mastery

#

(the sane test)

ripe coral Jan 26, 2017, 7:36 PM

#

Have anyone simmed all the new trinkets in Nighthold? cant find any information whats BiS anytmore

maiden cargo Jan 26, 2017, 7:37 PM

#

by the way, i think its worth rerunning sims in NH gear

#

a lot of talents and such are affected by it

wintry delta Jan 26, 2017, 7:37 PM

#

Does anyone know if CoF is more valuable for assassination with or without legendary boots?

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:37 PM

#

in any case, i'd make the claim right now that Blade Flurry's simcraft model has been horribly broken in game for ... a long time.. and we need to reevalute all the outlaw multiple target stuff

#

in particular, simc would probably have been devaluing mastery for a super long time

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:38 PM

#

from that error i found?

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:38 PM

#

yeah!

#

short answer: suppose you had a big-ass run through pumped into blade flurry

#

as your mastery went up, it looks like it was replacing that run through with main gauche damage

#

which is way lower

#

and deferring the run through execute to "single target" or whatever (not into BF)

#

so that's the negative mastery scaling you saw: as you get more MG procs, it was erroneously pumping less RT damge into BF

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:39 PM

#

makes sense

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:39 PM

#

so this is a pretty big bug, imo

#

and merits revisiting a lot of stat-weight assumptions re: outlaw

#

for what it's worth, the AMR sim has been valuing mastery a lot higher for outlaw for a LONG time

#

and I could never figure out why - this is probably related, or the root cause

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:40 PM

#

yeah but this related issue is only effecting BF though right?

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:40 PM

#

yes.

#

so in single target, no difference.

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:41 PM

#

near as i could tell from all the stuff i looked at AMR had a higher mastery value because of the differences in the APL

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:41 PM

#

also possible.

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:42 PM

#

of course nowadays both programs(simc/amr) seem to be putting all 4 of my secondary stats at being so close in value that it doesnt matter

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:42 PM

#

I just tested that a couple days ago - the APLs do pretty much the same thing in AMR. I didn't see any major difference - damage was almost identical. (and yes, outlaw secondaries have always shown as very close in all my tests)

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:42 PM

#

Yep, I saw that.

#

this is a pretty degenerate case involving, like, ten target cleave or whatever

#

loktark sent us a profile that displayed negative mastery scaling

#

as in, add 8000 mastery, you do 5% less dps

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:43 PM

#

i mean the mastery bug in simc is noticable at even 3 target cleave

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:43 PM

#

yeah.

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:43 PM

#

where it has mastery at half the value of my other stats

#

when it absolutely should have an increased value with more targets

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:43 PM

#

anyways, it's not in the nightly yet, but if you build from source you can get the fix pulled in

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:44 PM

#

also i ended up doing the adding 8k mastery thing because at 7 target cleave i was getting a negative scaling value for mastery

#

i was curious if it actually was providing negative damage

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:45 PM

#

whelp. lots of bugs waiting to be discovered, I guess

#

thanks @manic pulsar - good stuff!

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:45 PM

#

yeah

#

i guess thats what a community is for though right?

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:45 PM

#

the constant battle of simulation, heh

maiden cargo Jan 26, 2017, 7:45 PM

#

@manic pulsar for what its worth im quite impressed with the latest amr stuff, the only tiny issues with it i have are use effects from say gnawed thumb ring

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:45 PM

#

find the bugs, get em fixed

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:45 PM

#

yeah frozen - you can add those explicitly to the rotations if you would like

maiden cargo Jan 26, 2017, 7:46 PM

#

its really handy to efficiently find a good combo of gear to work with without messign with a ton of statweight balancing

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:46 PM

#

to optimize

#

i've slowly been going through and adding potion optimizations

#

and draught use

maiden cargo Jan 26, 2017, 7:48 PM

#

this was the only thing i found a bit weird

#

http://i.imgur.com/fNWurxS.png

#

0 vers goal for machine learning weights

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:48 PM

#

it's plausible that that's correct

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:48 PM

#

so, those "goals" are a bit misleading -

#

there are likely many configurations with some vers that are near-optimal.

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:49 PM

#

(the directionality, at least)

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:49 PM

#

we're working on a new visualization for the machine learning

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:49 PM

#

ooh, neat!

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:49 PM

#

the "stat goals" were kind of a failure, heh

maiden cargo Jan 26, 2017, 7:49 PM

#

i think the recommendations it gives are overall very good

#

but the goals are kind of hard to interpret

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:49 PM

#

i think the premise is tough to communicate but the architecture is totally 100% sound

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:50 PM

#

yeah, the underlying function is actually very good, but the goals are too narrow - they don't describe to you what the function will try to do

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:50 PM

#

i.e. estimate gradient of local surface as multiple linear regression against many points in neighborhood

maiden cargo Jan 26, 2017, 7:50 PM

#

i know those words seperatly

#

haha

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:50 PM

#

we came up with a visualization that is 2D, which we believe can represent this multi-dimensional problem

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:50 PM

#

that's awesome. you can always do something like "lagrange multipliers" vis or whatever

#

where you visualize the isocline DPS surface

#

as contours on a 2d plot

#

and then you project that

#

for all the pairs of dimensions

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:51 PM

#

im curious how the "human delay" setting actually works in amr

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:51 PM

#

that i can explain

#

demios is starting to use words that only he and yellowfive can talk bout

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:52 PM

#

time to bust out my MS paint

#

awww yisss

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:52 PM

#

"human delay" is basically reaction time

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:52 PM

#

you should use paint.net instead

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:52 PM

#

how the human delay factors in is best explained by example

maiden cargo Jan 26, 2017, 7:52 PM

#

does machine learning end up producing something similar to those 4d plots aethys had?

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:52 PM

#

how does the reaction time impact things though, like one were to react to getting an opportunity proc before the gcd is over

#

does it properly queue up the ability to cast at the end of the gcd?

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:53 PM

#

so, here is how AMR works, in a nutshell

#

lets say you use an ability at time 1.0

#

your next ability you want to happen at time 2.0

#

in-game, we know that you actually have to decide what to do and press the button some time before 2.0

#

or else it won't chain perfectly

#

this is the "spell queue"

#

our testing shows that the game allows you to "press the button" so to speak up to 300ms or so early

#

"early" being

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 7:54 PM

#

before it is ready to be cast or before the gcd is up

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:54 PM

#

right

#

we default this to 250

#

because good players will usually wait a little longer

#

so, then

#

you have to decide what to do. press the button, overcome lag, and then have it happen

#

all before time 2.0

#

so the "anticipation time"

#

decides when you, the player, decide what to do

#

we give this a range by default

#

of i think 283-315 ms

#

er 285-325

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:56 PM

#

seems totally defensible, and in line with human reaction data

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:56 PM

#

so, at time 1.7-ish, you will decide what to do

strong rune Jan 26, 2017, 7:56 PM

#

this is a really good insight, thanks for the expl!

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 7:56 PM

#

then, you have to press the button

#

(looking at notes for one sec)

#

so, what the simulator does is it creates a "decision cutoff" at end of current GCD - anticipation time

#

so in this example, lets say 1.7

#

any piece of information that you gain between time 1.7 and 2.0 is invisible when picking the next action

#

The evaluation of what action can be taken occurs at Decision Cutoff + Human Delay

#

so, if the action is usable at that time, it lets you do it

round canyon Jan 26, 2017, 8:00 PM

#

interesting

manic pulsar Jan 26, 2017, 8:00 PM

#

the lag gets added on to this as well. But, lag only really comes into effect if Human Delay + Lag is greater than anticipation time - which mirrors what we see in-game during lag spikes

#

you end up with gaps between abilities

#

Human Delay also comes into effect when you are in "reaction mode" - that is, you are waiting for an action to become available (waiting for energy, react to a proc, etc.)

#

you can't act immediately when you gain a buff, or hit 50 energy, or whatever

#

there is a delay

#

you can use .react in SimC for gaining buffs

#

to mirror this

#

but you have to put it in APL - it's not built in to the "guts"

#

for melee specs - all of this has very minor impact

#

for caster specs, it's a much bigger deal

#

but, you will notice that SimC, especially for sub rogues, will always get a few more shadowstrikes