tc-updates

[fathom estuary]

You'll need to copy the doc to your own drive to use. However if you copy the original instead you can simply paste my 2 additional sheets and everything should line up.

In the event the original gets updated... the only table that should need to change is "Data" and then only to re-lineup the traits and ratings from "Simple"

I'll be on for a while; please let me know if you find any bugs!

[granite comet]

@fathom estuary What does the total score represent?

[fathom estuary]

It's a sum() of the change in "rating" you get from each relic you have under 'potential'.

It selects the highest upgrade for relics that share a slot.

[granite comet]

Does it also assume you're playing agonizing poison?

[fathom estuary]

That's a question for @fair owl ... they simmed the original relic ratings

My contribution is simply the fancy sheet that lets you do in place comparisons rather than math in your head.

Another note on the total score; if you had a 900 rating shadow relic and had 3 new shadow options. 910, 880, and 910.15 then total would read: 910.15. However if you had 3 relics for different slots. then the total would be simply the change (up/down) for each one.

** Sorry it would read 10.15

[fair owl]

tfw already out of date

FeelsBadMan

[fathom estuary]

xD It's super easy to copy; O

*I'll update it in a little while when i get off this conf call

[dusky jewel]

hi, i'm trying to calculate the better strategy for envenom (with 3+,4+,5+ or 6CP envenom) in function of %crit.
basically i calculate the probability for every mutilate to generate 2,3,4 CP in fuction of crit chance (using the [0,1] interval). then for every strategy i calculate the probability to have each outcome.
for example for 3+ they are 3-4-5-6, for 4+ they are 4-5-6-(6+1wasted) and so on.
so i fixed an amount of CP and calculate for every strategy the expected value of numbers of envenom usable (counting the wasted cp).
then i calculate the expected value of the envenom's damage for every strategy.
then i multiplied the last 2 expected value to calculate the expected value of total damage.
but i realized that i must considerate the energy used but i dont have idea how to proper modelize.
then there possible errors in my calculation because i did my final of probability years ago D:

[fathom estuary]

@fair owl I've updated my sheet to match the latest one. Not sure what changes exactly between versions. Do you have a changelog for it?

[fair owl]

just added tov/nightbane gear

but assuming we manage to kill helya in timely fashion i'll try to do a big update next weekend

[fathom estuary]

@dusky jewel I'm not so much a statistics guy as I am a programmer. On the practical side I am wondering what your output looks like. From what I understand, energy isn't apart of your original model... what I'm reading is; your model is a mapping of probabilities for envenom dmg for over the number of mut's you cast modulated by your crit chance. One axis is dmg, one is starting CPs, and your margin is the CPs from mut+crit CPs.

Are you trying to consider energy because you also want to figure out the point where spending energy to mut isn't going to grant more dmg? If so then I'd just include a 3rd axis that tracks energy spent 55+35 for each interval. But maybe I am not understanding your goal.

@fair owl gotcha, ty for the heads up.

[dusky jewel]

in the x axis there is the crit chances, meanwhile in the y axis there is varius output, things like the expected values of envenom values/envenom damage/total damage.

[dusky jewel]

for example these are the expected values for the number of envenoms with a total of 172 CP

[dusky jewel]

this is the file where i write the probabilities, it's a geogebra file, i reload it with translation

if i try to multiply the number of envenoms for the expected value of envenom's damage i have this functions. but clearly the energy needed for 3+ i a lot more than 6+, so i tried to divide each function for the energy needed for the amount of the expected value of numbers of envenom to have the damage/energy used, but i not sure that this is correct

[chrome sun]

@dusky jewel holy moly, this is super neat!

!! nice work.

#actualTheorycrafting ^

[rain lance]

This is very cool @dusky jewel, you might also look at a transition matrix approach. It is a very useful way for pretty quickly analyzing scenarios like that without needing to play around with intercepts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_matrix

The approach you did is quite similar to how the current shadowcraft model handles cp gen for assn https://github.com/Fierydemise/ShadowCraft-Engine/blob/legion/shadowcraft/calcs/rogue/Aldriana/__init__.py#L854

[pseudo grove]

Since I got the boots, I was able to improve the APL a little bit :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/235366820712939521/258049739428200449/unknown.png

Also, there will be a new option (and expression), you can modify the amount refund by the boots

By default it's 12 (10 + 2) because we assume you're at 4yds

But on bosses like Helya, since it does compute it from the center and not the edge, adding "ssw_refund_offset=15" in your actor will increase the refund by 15

which is the average on helya (from 12 to 20 basically)

[junior wolf]

Hi guys is there a soft haste cap for Sub spec ?

[pseudo grove]

#228878985210101760

[shy needle]

Guys, I am a bit confused. Simc and Shadowcraft are both showing Vers>Mastery for me, which is conflicting with my common sense and everything I have read about Assassination. Can someone confirm that I am not insane?

[potent comet]

stat weights depend on your current stats aswell

if you have almost no vers, its gonna be weighted higher than if you were to have a lot

also, #228879234540503040

[shy needle]

Thanks, makes sense. I am short on Vers. I appreciate the quick response.

[dusky jewel]

uhm, i knew that i had to continue my studies in probabilities with the 2° class of prob and stochastic processes D:
btw, i tried a different approach, counting the expected value of mutilates needed for every envenom in each strategy and then calculating the energy needed. fixed an amount of energy (5000 in my calcs) i divided to counting the number of envenoms, hence i multiplied for the expected value of envenom's damage.
the results are these

black=3+ green=5+ red=4+ yellow=6

basically with less than 36%crit is better 5+, with more 4+

updated file

but maybe i did some errors, afterall i cant deny that im biased about this, i started this calculations exactly to see if a similar situation can happen.
maybe there is a better modelization for this problem, surely if i start to consider elaborate planning and surge of toxins (but for now i dont have absolutely idea how to do)

[arctic raft]

@pseudo grove, what's the dps loss if you include the ptr nerf to boots?

[pseudo grove]

try

ptr=1

😃

[round cosmos]

can someone tell me whats best, pooling energy the using Envenom and popping Mutilates within the EP proc? or popping Envenom as often as i can to keep up EP?

[twin moth]

Hey guys.. I thought that maybe Subtelty has another DPS optimum with high haste. Is there a guide somewhere which tells how to override stats?

[brazen comet]

Riff's guide and stjern's guides are probably the best reference, that and sim yourself as well to see the error percentages.

[twin moth]

They don't cover working with simcraft

I've seen there's an override there

But I dont know how to use it

Want to switch 30% crit to 30% haste

[brazen comet]

Where at?

[twin moth]

On simcraft

Don't have it in front of me right now

[rain lance]

gear_crit_rating=3715

put that in the profile (the 3715 is an arbitrary value) and it will let you override stats

[brazen comet]

Thanks Fiery, that reminds me nizank, have you noticed with Sub that you don't have to have as much mastery as sin? I do more DPS with lower mastery.

[twin moth]

Hmm... How much?

And what is the tradeoff and with what stat?

Fiery - it will override everything, or just a single piece of gear?

And in the normal profile I import with simc, or in the override tongue?

[rain lance]

That will globally override the amount of crit you have

in the profile itself

[twin moth]

Cool

Too bad I have bouldering now.. I wanna try it! 😃

Would be fun to find another optimum

What are the current weights of % per point for stats?

[rain lance]

If you are looking for the optimum point you should look at the 4D plots from @pseudo grove CombinX project: https://github.com/SimCMinMax/CombinX

[twin moth]

It's a bunch of simc files.. what do I do with them?

I see there's a Python there as well..

[rain lance]

Hopefully @pseudo grove can pop in here and explain but I believe it is plot_stats/plot.py does what you are looking for

[twin moth]

Yeah, seems like it runs simc or something

Went over the code

But I don't see where

And I don't know what to put it in 'spec'

I will try it manually at first

[brazen comet]

@twin moth It had my mastery at around 60-70% ish.

[pseudo grove]

what do you want to achieve @twin moth ?

I mean, explain ur idea

[thick prism]

He wanted to find an optimal Haste Breakpoint, to guarantee 4 SS in one ShD, without Boots/ES Proc

[brazen comet]

I would think that when you sim, the closer to a lower error rate would be the optimum.

[pseudo grove]

without Ursoc I assume then ?

CombinX plotting isn't enough precise for that (the idea is to get an hot area)

Bloodystats would be better suited for this

but

keep in mind that results are bound to a context

may not always apply in game

and in fact, SimC haste threshold are always tricky

especially with energy

even if you take the formula

you need to take a margin

because of input lag, latency, etc...

[brazen comet]

I can usually get 3 SS then to evis, but wouldn't 4 be overkill though?

[pseudo grove]

I think he want to do this :

5    4     3        2     1     0
SS   SS    Evisc    SS    SS    

which is optimal

[potent comet]

@pseudo grove in your recent SimC commit, you use "cooldown.shadow_dance.charges_fractional" where later on you for shadow dance you use "charges_fractional". Do these have the same function?

nvm

im stupid

[brazen comet]

That makes more sense then

[pseudo grove]

yes @potent comet

just shorthand on the later because it's shd action

[potent comet]

charges_fractional refers to the action you're using whereas is for when you aren't referring the current action you're using iirc

[pseudo grove]

but tbh, it doesn't requires much haste to do the thing I writed above

[potent comet]

really need to brush up on simc api again

[pseudo grove]

and getting a 5th is almost impossible

[brazen comet]

Is there a way to post Sim results in here?

[pseudo grove]

you can drag & drop, but don't flood, post only if it's relevant

[brazen comet]

Like the simc output in game?

[pseudo grove]

what do you mean ?

@twin moth btw, it's not possible to fit a 6th gcd during ShD, at least AFAIK so there is no "high haste breakpoint" currently

all the haste you get that let you with more energy than needed (excluding proc) is a dps loss

good example is ssw boots

I was able to dump a bit outside of shd

but we have so much from it that's it's not worth to dump more outside of shd because we loose shd overall uptime by backstabbing

that's why the nerf won't be "that hard"

and boots will still be #1

[brazen comet]

Are the new legendaries supposed to be making it to live? I thought the shoulders would be a great option too.

[pseudo grove]

As sub, I don't think so

Boots & Bracers "too good"

[brazen comet]

So here's my question, I thought Sub benefitted from high Mastery, when I'm seeing the opposite. Has anyone else experienced this?

[pseudo grove]

What do u mean ?

Subtlety loves all stats

more Mastery than other

but you need Versatility & Crit

that's the whole thing about secondary

[twin moth]

Aethys - I wanted to achieve 4 ss within a dance

W/o ES procs

So I compared the 30 energy you get from the boots after 3 ss

And checked how much haste is needed

But then someone told me you get 4 even with the nerfed boots

So I figured out I would need around 30% haste

Assuming energy regen is 10(1+h%)

Though your sims suggest otherwise

Could it be context dependent?

[pseudo grove]

depend how u enter in shd

let's say u have DS

in the APL currently

you can enter with up to 3cp

2 without

(with premed, one less without)

so based on that + shadow techniques

in fact you might end with 2 evisc and 3 ss instead of 4 1

[fathom estuary]

Question regarding running multiple simulations in simcraft. I have 2 pc itemsets; Jacin's and Chrono shard. These have prompted me to try and plot changes in specific report values over changes in non-stat variables in the profile. Such as proc rate's effect on EP uptime. (I've had wildly different proc rates on progression tov) Or the change in Venomous Wounds recovery rate when CS is up and when it's not.

Is there a way to configure Simcraft to itterate over a collection of variables in the profile? Followup: does simcraft simply re-run the full sim for each itteration or can it denote the change a variable has on a specific result value?

[brazen comet]

@pseudo grove I upped the Mastery with the gear I have, and it dropped my DPS by 20K, granted the ilvl's were slightly lower so that was probably a factor because I had not had the chance to get better gear. So I'm guessing the drop in agility, which was about 200, factored that in.

[pliant dirge]

hey guys, good evening to u all.. i have a question about the stats. afs far as i know, we subt rogues like mastery alot, then some crits and versitality. but i just can't seem to find the soft/hard caps for those 3?

maybe i am overlooking it? 😃

[brazen comet]

Maybe Aethys can comment, but simming yourself is the best way to find how low of an error rate you get.

[pliant dirge]

and eh, how do i sim myself? 😃

[brazen comet]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pW5mWY9nkfWoRCOHfoXqeeGb8s-jMoSVy-g8uveUv4c/edit

[pliant dirge]

thanks for the reply 😉 and for the link 😃

[twin moth]

I meant entering w/o cp.. or just one

[fathom estuary]

From what I can see the answer to my question is "no-ish". I just feel like I'm overlooking something. Automation and CLI aren't helping make a unified report.

[arctic raft]

@pseudo grove, so sub bracerss are better then ring?

[pseudo grove]

"yes" but please ask this in #228878985210101760 in the future

[chrome sun]

@fathom estuary - you might want to try the addon simpermut

lets you select itemsets from your bags in game, generates all permutations

then you can sim all the sets you have

https://mods.curse.com/addons/wow/254069-simpermut

[vagrant crescent]

anyone around?

[chrome sun]

yes.

[vagrant crescent]

so i just got nightbane chest and im simming around with my trinkets

Very new to simcraft, switching out my BTI for my ethereal urn gives me 3k Mean dps gain, but 9k max dps loss

[chrome sun]

max DPS isn't a valuable metric

it's an artifact of simulation; mostly

the mean DPS gain is what you should probably be interested in

[vagrant crescent]

people in my guild are telling me to go for the max dps thats the only reason im questioning this

[chrome sun]

what they're probably saying is "go for the gearset that results in the greatest mean dps"

which is accurate, and what you want to do

[vagrant crescent]

Alright, that was my standpoint on it too but our shaman was telling me to go for the maxdps

na he specificly said go for the one with higher max dps on simcraft

[chrome sun]

i think he may be confused, then 😉

you're on the right track.

[vagrant crescent]

thanks, kinda sad im not using my 870 momento socket anymroe rip

[chrome sun]

it can happen - ilvl isn't as significant in this expansion as it has been in others

[vagrant crescent]

i know it kinda sucks cause i was kinda having fun with the 880 bti and momento when i'd get good procs and now its just yay static crit/mastery trinkets haha

but im feelin good aobut tonights raid, got my leg bracers/ring nightbane chest eye of command idk what to go for next

guess i could up my 860 relics rip

[rich rain]

well be glad you're not stuck on an 835 six-feather fan like me

[twilit moss]

Ok let me rephrase it then Maybe someone knows the current state of things, last time i simmed Aran's Relaxing Ruby it simmed for 7,9% dps singletarget but i am not sure if it even still works for rogues after the changes they did to it, anyone knows its real state at the moment ?

[gray olive]

How much mastery is .1% dmg on agonizing poinson? I assume no one knows but I have 800 mastery is approx .2%

Wouldnt that mean vers>mastery because 800 vers = 2% incresed dmg vs 800 mastey = approx 1%?

Even with surge I think vers still pulls ahead

yeah pretty sure 400 mastey is .1% dmg i tested going from 400-800-1200-1600-2000 mastery and every time it went up .1% so I feel vers>mastery

[acoustic lake]

mastery's contribution to agonising poison is a percentage increase on the base value of AP by half of your total mastery percentage

so, 130% mastery, your mastery increases ago's base value of 4% by 65%, so with only mastery as a factor, each stack would give you 6.6%

[gray olive]

But point for point is vers>mastery or mastery>vers

[acoustic lake]

Depends how much of each stat you have to be honest. I would have to double check the damage formula, but think about it like this

vers increases your base damage by its percentage. If you deal 100 damage base, and you have 10% vers, you deal 110 damage. If you increase vers by 1% you don't deal 1% more damage, you deal 1% more base damage. 1% more damage would be 111.1 damage, but 1% more vers will give you 111 damage

So its not always right to say that 2% increase in versatility is a 2% increase in damage you're currently doing

[gray olive]

Tyvm so how does AP effect damage?

I'm a theorycrafting noob and just trying to help myself do better damage and your help is appreciated

[acoustic lake]

in a league game just now, ill pm you afterwards

[gray olive]

ty

[dense swift]

With current Sub APL as base. On longer fights (8 min) I see a gain of ~500 dps by simulating a macro for using shadow blades only with backstab.
For shorter fights (4 min) this comes out dps negative by ~300 dps.

[pseudo grove]

in % ?

and what % error ?

[dense swift]

My analysis of this is that backstab gaining extra combopoints is contributes more to damage than the shadow component does. But it's not worth losing SB uses over it. SS only gains marginally from the bonus CP

SB changes http://i.imgur.com/TZALKsX.png
Standard http://i.imgur.com/4hzmILv.png

[dense swift]

No bracers*

[gilded radish]

whats the difference between "damage pr execute time" and "damage sources"

in simcraft? 😃

[dense swift]

Damage per execute time is (mainly for casters) how much damage something deals in the time it takes to cast it. For us, it's 1 gcd.

Damage sources is in the sim how large % something contributes to your total damage, as you'd see in f.ex WCL or skada

[gilded radish]

okay, so damage pr execute tme isnt rly relevant to me?

or?

[dense swift]

Well, I mean say for sub (with cloak) http://i.imgur.com/hL00D46.png
This tells you that it's more damage to do a nightblade than an evis.

Which I guess in some cases can help one understand why we keep nightblade up as much as we can

And how much damage you lose by choosing to do an evis instead of a nightblade. (But this doesn't take energy cost etc into consideration)

Also includes stuff as soul rip or extra damage from SB when you SS and such not directly obvious

[gilded radish]

okay

http://bildr.no/view/a1E4dnNG

heres mine

RT and PS about the same

;o

no idea why

I guess its cuz i have blunderbuss and bracers

[pseudo grove]

@dense swift more exactly, it depends if the nightblade will fully tick or not 😛

[brazen jay]

So how exactly is Blurred time supposed to work right now. Sometimes it instantly reduces all your remaining cooldowns by dividing them by 1.15 and other times it just makes so that during those 15 seconds of ar your cds tick down at 1.15 seconds per second.

It also randomly decides which spell gets the reduction at the cast of ar. Sometimes it doesnt affect any spell other times it affects all of them

[novel sentinel]

Also does it work with TB because sometimes it feels like it does^^

For example i 6CP run through when MfD is on a 14 sec CD with TB up and MfD resets

[rain lance]

TB reduces the CD of all abilities by 15% as a percent, that means if a CD is 50% over when AR is cast then with TB it still is 50% but now 50% of 85% of full duration

[brazen jay]

For me it doesnt work like that

[rain lance]

When AR ends it returns to the original duration, again as a percentage

[brazen jay]

On activation simply cuts down the cooldown by 15% and remains like that

[rain lance]

Well ok, thats how it worked during beta but Blizzard has been stealth tweaking things

And it doesn't revert when AR ends?

[brazen jay]

Nope

Vanish during ar comes out as 1:44 cd on use. Then ticks down normally as if there were no other modifiers

[rain lance]

Interesting, @pseudo grove this seems relevant to you

[brazen jay]

Also curse is 1:18 cd when activated during ar.

Problem is this only affects curse like 1/4 of the time for no apparent reason

But these cd reduction numbers all correctly match the 15% reduction if it is just "remaining cd / 1.15"

[rain lance]

Alright well this is news to me, thanks for stealth hotfixing traits Blizzard

[brazen jay]

Even more retarded is that AR itself doesnt behave like this.

It only ticks down 15% faster during the 15 seconds of ar

[novel sentinel]

Im in a M+ rn And when i pop AR Tooltips are not changing at all

[brazen jay]

Which reduces its own cooldown by a hefty 1.94 or so seconds

[white trail]

Sadly I don't have that trait on live, guess we can retest on ptr

On beta it just shrunk current and max cooldown for the duration of AR and unshrunk after

[brazen jay]

That is how the subtlety pvp talent used to work aswell

[rain lance]

Sounds like it still does that, but it does something different for other CDs

[white trail]

I'm not sure I follow how it works now

[brazen jay]

Now the subtlety pvp talent is different yet again. Working really inconsistently like blurred time is for me

[white trail]

It keeps cooldown at shrunk state?

[brazen jay]

No

My symbols for example just tick its 10 second cooldown at 1.3 seconds in a second

Resulting in bit over 7 second cooldown

Sprint however just simply is a 42 second cooldown as long as Im in stealth

[white trail]

Do you use any addons?

[brazen jay]

I do, but I do these test via in game sw

So addons should not have anything to do with the numbers

[white trail]

Yeah I mean try to disable everything and try again. Doubt it would change anything but who knows

I have no idea how this game operates sometimes

[brazen jay]

The blizzards own cooldown tooltip just ticks down the 10 seconds of sumbol cd in 7 seconds

It is absolutely bizzare

[rain lance]

Ok wEak do you mind going through all of the major outlaw CDs and map out their behaviors with TB, write it up and we can get it changed in SimC assuming it isn't already

[brazen jay]

I cannot. It stopped working for me a moment ago. Im not getting the cd reduction on anything but cloak right now. First tests I did it affected all major cds:
MfD, vanish, cloak, curse, riposte.
Never did it affect couge, bte or ar itself

[rain lance]

./headdesk

[brazen jay]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[rain lance]

Alright well if it does start behaving sanely for you let me know

[brazen jay]

Also a not so important side note about the outlaw pvp talent that gives you ar does not trigger this effect what so ever. Not even on vanish

[pseudo grove]

this is called World of Bugs

or Legion of Bugs

interesting tho

[white trail]

It's like they don't want that trait to work with TB so instead of shrinking they want seconds to be "faster"

[brazen jay]

That is how the subtlety pvp talent started to work like. Now it seems it only does this faster seconds for symbols. All other abilities affected by it go back to the shrinking and snapping back system. The way blurred time used to work

[dense swift]

They recently (or was it on PTR) changed how.. Serenity? For brewmaster monks worked

Well basically BM monks has something that works on the same CDR mechanics and that was changed

[brazen jay]

Yes, and this is how both the rogue things worked aswell

[dense swift]

Maybe this is linked?

[brazen jay]

Now they are fucked up

[dense swift]

I don't think the rogue and the BM monk was exactly the same though, right?

[brazen jay]

How serenity works on ptr is how rogue trait and talent worked pre 7.1

[dense swift]

"For those unaware, Serenity currently halves the CDs of our abilites when cast and halves the CD of any ability cast during it. For example, if Fists of Fury had a CD of 12 seconds when we activate Serenity, it would drop to a 6 second CD. If we used it during Serenity, instead of being a 24 second CD, it would be a 12 second CD. However, on the PTR, after Serenity ends, the second usage of Fists of Fury results in the CD bouncing back up to the normal amount, so it would be back to around 24 seconds."

Ah you mean like that. Yeah that's what I gathered as well

[brazen jay]

https://gfycat.com/GleefulImpureAmazonparrot

Not sure if it is quite clear from this. But here it actually worked for curse vanish but no cloak. The addon tracking cds in the middle is wa with blizzards own cd numbers. The cd is different in wa than in action bar but it was actually lowered in game

[dense swift]

Okey that confused me

:P

[brazen jay]

And the cooldowns do not snap back up to the original ones after ar ends

[dense swift]

But yeah, I can see it's lowered

It doesn't show AR ending though, does it?

[brazen jay]

Nope, but they just tick down normally after

[dense swift]

ah

How does it work with BTE?

[brazen jay]

Havent gotten it to interact with bte or couge what so ever

[dense swift]

Vanish?

Or is it only curse/mfd?

[brazen jay]

mfd doesnt work currently, did 30 mins ago

vanish works 100% of the time

[white trail]

Curse wasn't affected by that trait during beta i think

[brazen jay]

And now it only sometimes works

[dense swift]

Weird

[brazen jay]

There are times I cast ar 5 times and it only ever affects vanish and riposte

[dense swift]

Could you try with a stopwatch to see it's not just tooltip bugs?

[brazen jay]

lemme reset cds

[white trail]

http://pastebin.com/sq4Lngiw

[dense swift]

Sadly I'm leaving in 3 min, but maybe that confirmation will be of interest for others. I'll read back when I get home

[white trail]

That was my last beta test for this ability

Extraction point haha

[dense swift]

Extraction point was nice

[brazen jay]

I dont understand this game

Now the spells are consistent. All the same spell each ar cast but now the result is that all of them are lowered by 15 - (15 / 1.15) = 1.956 seconds or so. No matter how long the cd is.
Affected spells being the same as in lorentz beta testing apart from curse being added.

So I honestly dont know what was happening earlier. Could be that I just specced into the trait?

But now my TB numbers are not adding up either

[rain lance]

How so?

[brazen jay]

Cos 90s cd baseline. Spent 18 combos during ar with TB. Resulted in 46 second cooldown in the end

Same with vanish baseline 120s cd. Spent 18 cps. Resulted in 76 seconds

So it does not look like % based snapping

Mfd was 16 seconds

2 finishers with TB reduced all cooldowns by 30 seconds during ar

one was 16 seconds

[white trail]

6 cp finishers?

[brazen jay]

Yes, all with 6 cp finishers

The value of cd reduction goes up the more cps you spend during ar with TB

But it is still the same exact amount of seconds for each spell so cannot be percentage based

[pseudo grove]

# Condition to continue rerolling RtB if we have less than '3 Buffs' or 'not True Bearing' or '2 Buffs and not SiW w/o greenskins'. With SnD, consider that we never have to reroll.

Here is the current biggest dps RtB rules I'm able to get from SimC

have fun outlaw mates

[summer finch]

oh god, rtb got worse.

[white trail]

Probability to roll 3+ or TB is ~27.06%. Have fun indeed

[summer finch]

i cant see any raiding rogue rolling til you get 3+. the amount of boss fights you just be totally useless for the raid is too high

[azure saddle]

So if I'm reading this correctly, every 2buff w/o tb/siw is to be rerolled w/o greenskins right?

Placebo, the second yo uget 3+ or TB

it's worth it

don't forget if you rol la single TB you keep it

[summer finch]

not very reliable, hard to justify mutiple bad pulls cause you tried to get the desired buffs 5 times in a row.

wont use it in progress then..

[azure saddle]

27% chance isn't that low though, look at it as a cooldown 😛 I'm guessing that during CotDB it changes abit, like crit is I guess as good as it was for CotDB with greenskins?

[white trail]

On average you need 4 rolls to get desired result

It's bad already

[azure saddle]

Yes but it's a higher reward. I hate it, but waht I'm saying is it's going to be worthwhile doing 😛

[summer finch]

how far ahead is this rolling strategy to the second one?

[white trail]

Chance to not see 3+ or TB in next 6 rolls = ~15%

Fun times

[soft prism]

hello?

[onyx trench]

Do the trinket sims take into account that BTI's proc value is lower than what's displayed in wowhead/armory?

@pseudo grove

[pseudo grove]

check date

so no

[onyx trench]

Is there a way to force the value in simcraft to the right one?

[azure saddle]

but I guess that BtI sims correctly right now right?

Even though, it being as good as it is makes me wonder if it actually doe

it actually doest... it sims 5k haste instead of 3k for me... hmmm

[thick prism]

Same for Eye of Command, ingame (860 with Chest) it say 183 Crit per stack, in Simcraft its 197

[hot gazelle]

I have a general question about Relics, hoping someone can help. I curently have 3 gushing wounds relics and am at 897 weapon ilvl. However, I just got my third Master Assassin relic for vendetta CD but would lose 9 ilvls in my weapon because the relics are lower ilvl. Any thoughts on if I should switch to vendetta even with the ilvl loss?

[winged lily]

switch

9 ilvls in your wep is fuck all

3x vendetta 100%

[hot gazelle]

that's what i thought but then someone simmed me and said it was a 10k dps loss, but he wasnt sure if he did it right

[winged lily]

that's incorrect

it won't be a loss

[hot gazelle]

okay, thanks for the info

[worldly crest]

Got a bit confused regarding rtb rules,u keep SiW as part of 2 buffs only with Greenskins?

So,without them u reroll anything if it is not 3 buffs or TB?

[uncut coral]

only without greenskins

[pseudo grove]

only w/o y

[vast ember]

It would be interesting to see if that rtb strategy changed if you were looking at the 25th percentile parse rather than the mean.

[covert flame]

how much higher is that than the roll for 2 strat, and what is the variance on it compared to the roll for 2?

[azure saddle]

I don't get what you're saying

[pseudo grove]

what is displayed as mean in simc is in fact median @vast ember

variance go up by like 1 or 2%

dps go up by like 2-3% w/o gs & 10-15% w/ gs

basically, it shows how absurd true bearing is

[vast ember]

To clarify: w/o bracers, if I were to roll SIW and JR, I don't reroll. Correct?

[pseudo grove]

y

[worldly crest]

So,does simc actually values getting more BtE with TB and consuming as much bracers procs as possible(regardless of it being Blunderbuss or a simple pistol shot proc) over getting BtE crits with SiW and trying to consume bracers procs with Blunderbuss only?

Ive had this feeling for a long time,that TB and SiW are the only 2 buffs (and tb even beeing single) worth keeping atm,so i rerolled everything unless it was 6,3 or 2 with SiW/TB or TB

I would even value TB over JR+BT+GM for example

But i would not thought that SiW+1 wont be worth it right now,specially with bracers

i would imagine it being so after a bit more of scaling in Nighthold

[winged lily]

@pseudo grove

i wanna know to read those 4d plots

[white trail]

you have budget of stats, say X. Let's just consider one points that has coordinates (5%, 10%, 60%, 25%) for (Haste, Mastery, Crit, Versa) It means that Haste has 5% * X from that budget, Mastery 10% * X, etc.

[winged lily]

oh

holy shit

wow

it's the matrix, Lor

i can read the fucking matrix

[cursive storm]

hey, quick question, is the belt simming higher than the boots for outlaw right now?

[small mountain]

#228879234540503040

[amber grail]

Sub or outlaw for nighthold? Have 35 poitns in each atm.

[normal marsh]

ass

[amber grail]

really?

[normal marsh]

ass is love ass is life

[distant crystal]

@amber grail sub with legs and high ilvl

if you have boots or ring go on sub

[compact condor]

Is the Ring that good for Sub?

[worldly crest]

@pseudo grove I know i would be asking much,but please,can u share with us the data acumulated while setting new RtB rules? Like the one in Stjern guide regarding rtb combos,or point me to the way of doing it myself

I do fear,that with Nighthold gear and 7.1.5 fixes the RtB would come down to rolling only TB regardless of having GS or not

And RtB would lose any sense than,so it might be the good and only time for the last push on forums regarding RtB while ptr cycles are is still in place

[distant crystal]

yes @compact condor Insigna

[pseudo grove]

@Майти#4051 I'm gonna make a script and release it somewhere

so it'll auto update the rules

and everyone will be able to test "his own rules"

but as always, this thing take a bit of time and xmas is coming

I have a lot to do, so we'll see.

[gaunt stump]

@pseudo grove is there somewhere currently where a RtB discussion and new ruleset is being talked about?

[pseudo grove]

why not here ? 😃

it's theorycrafting

there are probably better rules

or some that apply in a given context

only

but it's hard for me to detect everything

especially since I do play outlaw rarely

[arctic raft]

have u tried any approaches regarding shoulders in outlaw?

considering blurred time instantly reduces cd of vanish

[pseudo grove]

no but I assume it'll be quite strong

I have to implement it properly for Subtlety

and check blurred time thing

[rocky lake]

herro. does anyone have a link to the google doc. Legendary Spreadsheet that calculates your KP ? I forgot to save a local copy.

[novel sentinel]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uRPy-cc98TLHscgqMyjAz7yD3ON_dhaPDIr_Nand07U/edit#gid=474315725

this one?

[rocky lake]

thanks 😃

[sand nova]

that calculator is entirely arbitrary and worthless, not only is the warning at the bottom spot on, but the sample size is less than 10k people

it's a waste of time entering your details even, just keep playing consistently and youll eventually receive one

the only thing we know for sure about that 'eventually' is that it cannot be determined by any metric other than blizzards ones, which are unknown to us

[rocky lake]

thanks. I hesitated to download it due to custom xls on work pc anyway, but passed it on to a friend if he was interested. Will inform him of "arbitrary and worthless,"

[small mountain]

its not arbitrary the dude did a really good job on that, of course its only an indication, RNG is still RNG

[edgy walrus]

do we have some info on how much higher crit will go with the patch for assa? can't sim it since i'm still getting bugged reports (1m+ dps) using ptr=1

[royal sonnet]

As anyone done the maths on the upcopming legendary changes? Especially for the subtlely ones. Would like to know how they rank now dps wise

[lavish finch]

Hi there

Could someone help me with something on SimC please? Or questions related to simc are on an another chan? 😃

[sand nova]

@royal sonnet

aethys posted some preliminary sims on the day of the changes showing it being roughly tied for bis with the bracers both with and without tier set

i believe bracers were slightly (like 1k out of a 615k sim) ahead

obviously that will depend on fight length

[royal sonnet]

@sand nova when you say it, are you talking about the boots ? The 3 energy version?

[sand nova]

yes

[royal sonnet]

I see thanks for the answer, I'm gonna try to ask him then 😃

[spiral badger]

was wondering if there is a cap on mastery as assassination? and if so the cap

[sand nova]

Go to #228879234540503040

[sand nova]

go to #228879234540503040

[small mountain]

its better to put that in #228879234540503040

[gilded radish]

can anyone explain me this easy? 😃

Roll the Bones: 1 buff 7.2 35.7sec
Roll the Bones: 2 buffs 4.3 62.6sec
Roll the Bones: 3 buffs 0.5 115.7sec
Roll the Bones: 6 buffs 0.2 110.0sec

(from simcraft)

(count) and interval

[potent comet]

count is how many times on average you get that roll

interval is the average amt of time between those rolls

i think..

[gilded radish]

110sec between each 6 buffs roll XD+

?

seems weird

[random cargo]

So

I'm currently simming like 40k higher

in Exsang than AP

should i be going exsang for st?

[upper wave]

That's a question for simple questions. You should only be playing AP if you can tunnel 1 target for the entire fight

[random cargo]

even if ap is simming lower st than ap over X duration?

it doesn't seem to win out in some stat situations

but i have quite low mastery and 47% crit and 12% versa

[raw yarrow]

am I missing something with the Exsang Vendetta APL? Even with 3 CDR relics, it holds Vendetta for Exsang, resulting in a loss

changing the Vendetta lines like this nets me an additional 15k:

#actions.cds+=/vendetta,if=talent.exsanguinate.enabled&cooldown.exsanguinate.remains<5&dot.rupture.ticking
#actions.cds+=/vendetta,if=!talent.exsanguinate.enabled&(!artifact.urge_to_kill.enabled|energy.deficit>=70)
actions.cds+=/vendetta,if=!artifact.urge_to_kill.enabled|energy.deficit>=70

[sullen laurel]

NB chest=EoC+BSH bis?

[sharp shuttle]

got a trinket called Natures call is that worth keeping ? 😃

[white trail]

0.1 energy/second for Sub/Assa and 0.12 for Outlaw

[half shore]

7.1.5 Sub > Assa > Out ???

[sand nova]

@half shore It is unknown what spec will be the best in Nighthold. Final changes to abilities, set bonuses, and legendaries that may happen before or after the first week of Nighthold have yet to be publicised. Any discussion about spec balance in Nighthold/7.1.5 is largely speculative

thats more a question for #228879234540503040 or gen mod as well tbh

[twin moth]

I really wish the 4d stats plot weren't as uniform as they are.. Would make gameplay much more interesting.. Do you guys think it's by design?

[pseudo grove]

What do you mean @twin moth ?

[twin moth]

Aethys - right now it seems there's only one optimum per spec

On that space

Right?

[pseudo grove]

by optimum you mean the area or the point ?

because point doesn't matter much

rather the area

the more it is wide

the more the spec is "balance"

BUT

since the colour depends on the spectrum

it will always shows the area with most benefits

[twin moth]

Yeah, maxima always have a surrounding..

[pseudo grove]

so there will always have a "good" area

the thing, you need to interpret the results

[twin moth]

Would have been nice to have a few.. depending on talents or legendaries

[pseudo grove]

those are a bit long to compute

and I'm currently building the spreadsheet 2.0

fully web based

[twin moth]

Yeah, I saw the scripts...

[pseudo grove]

that's why I don't add much

[twin moth]

Couldn't figure it out by myself 😃

[pseudo grove]

in the future those will run 24/24

[twin moth]

Can simc run on GPU?

[pseudo grove]

so everything will be autoupdated as soon as anything change in rogue spelldata, module or profiles

(from simulationcraft)

because I'm lazy 😃

and even if it tooks me like 5 cmd to update everything, it is still too much

[twin moth]

Anyhow, you think that structure of those space is by design?

spaces

[pseudo grove]

not by design

imo, it's just hard to make every spec using every secondaries at equal level with every possibilities

[twin moth]

I really want to know how Blizz work

[pseudo grove]

while letting them "generic"

i.e. same effect for everyone, or almost.

[twin moth]

Hmm.. I don't think they should be flat..

Would be cooler to have a few sharper maxima

Instead of a big flat one

But that would make ppl complain a lot

Would have been nice to have Vigor, for eg. change the maximum towards mastery while DS moves it towards haste

But it's not really happening..

[pseudo grove]

I don't mind having to make choices in terms of secondaries as long as it is not "all in one and ignore everything else"

of course I prefer having the same spread across all 3 specs so I can switch when I want

[twin moth]

I agree.. it makes the grind bad

[pseudo grove]

but this cannot be achievied

without making passives like WoD

and it means they would have to make the same for all 3 specs

[twin moth]

I didn't play WoD

[chilly dirge]

which of the 3 specs are the best to get legendaries for coming into nighthold?

[twin moth]

Nobody knows

[calm pebble]

Are there breakpoints for Outlaw?

[plush relic]

hey guys, is there any evidence for poison bomb proc chance scaling off of mastery or some other factor

i have about 40% more mastery than our other rogue, and i looked across all encounters and my poison bomb procs about 30% more

he was calling bullshit on my rng but it seemed suspicious

he has more envenom casts than me by about ~5-10%

[verbal valley]

Poison bomb's proc chance scales with haste, as stated on the ability here http://www.wowhead.com/spell=192657/bag-of-tricks

[coarse roost]

How is that calculate with haste?

[white trail]

chance is multiplied by ( 1 + Haste )

where Haste is percentage that you see in char stats

[winged lily]

i know that this isn't the channel, but you're all smart

i need an internet guru

can't figure out my god damn connection issues

[rich rain]

@pseudo grove is what Klause wrote already factored into SimC wit the computations and scaling?
Klaus - Today at 11:24 AM
Poison bomb's proc chance scales with haste, as stated on the ability here http://www.wowhead.com/spell=192657/bag-of-tricks(edited)
Wowhead
Bag of Tricks
Envenom has a chance to smash a vial of poison at the target's location, creating a pool of acidic death that deals [(120% of Attack power) * 6] Nature damage over 3 sec to all enemies within it.

[white trail]

SimC gets that from spell data so it should be factored automatically

[twilit burrow]

i'm not sure if this is the right place, but how do you simulate a vantus rune effect for simc? or something that would emulate the 1k versatility?

[brazen jay]

just add an enchant to an item with 1k vers

[twilit burrow]

ty, yeah i figured that would be a workaround xd, just thought there would be a precombat consumable thing for it in simc

[twin moth]

Is the haste scaling new or was it always there?

[pseudo grove]

on rppm, always

[twin moth]

I missed that.. nice idea. Could help them balance secondary stat weights

[pseudo grove]

see it as Guarm Mastery trinket

it's same budget

at equals ilvl

[viscid marsh]

Hello, does anyone know how much mastery is needed to increase Agonizing poison by 0.2% per stack?

[ember tusk]

4% i think

[lunar blaze]

does simcraft take the legendary boots for assass in to account for the effect

[pseudo grove]

it should

why ?

[dry hull]

talent.elaborate_planning.enabled&combo_points>=3+!talent.exsanguinate.enabled&buff.elaborate_planning.remains<2)
is the "!" the same as not? as in exsang not enabled

[rain lance]

yes ! is not

[dry hull]

ty

[pseudo plume]

so we had an 860 fulminators drop in EoA and playing around with it the procs are consistent with bleeds/application of agonizing. Is it worth using over either EoC prob not, or Ethereal urn?

I tried to sim it

but it pretends it won't proc

but I am actively proccing it

during the proc I hit around 210% mastery

from 113%

[acoustic lake]

@viscid marsh 1% mastery increases ago by .2% per stack

[tidal fog]

i dont understand, why is it everywhere i look outlaw rogue stat weights are mastery > vers > haste > crit but top outlaw rogues are crit > vers > mastery = haste, how are they getting their gear strat?

[sand nova]

where do you see mastery > vers

[tidal fog]

askmrrobot, and simming scales naked

[sand nova]

your stat weights depend on the gear you have equipped

also, dont use amr

use simc

[acoustic lake]

mastery is legit useless for outlaw.

[tidal fog]

i do my scales with simc, and it gives me a pawn string, then i equip gear according to that pawn and my dps is lower

trying to gear outlaw in preparation for 1.5

[sand nova]

full mastery snd outlaw build, new meta

you need to

update stat weights

after every time you equip a new gear piece

[tidal fog]

oh ok ill try it one at a time

yeah SnD does really well in ptr when i test it, so i was thinking that mastery and haste would be way more valuable, but i wouldnt begin to know how to sim ptr

[proper valve]

Wanna sim enchants. How do i find the appropiate numbers(RIng Enchants) for them?

[acoustic lake]

you just put

enchant=200crit

or whatever you want

enchant_ids are only used by simc ingame addon

mostly cuz the ingame addon is just pulling ids from the items directly, it doesn't know what the enchant actually is

[vestal kite]

Yea I screwed up. Was using askmrrobot for the longest time for outlaw. Simc is so different.

Definitely notice my dps is better now using SimC

[plush relic]

The new simcraft release seems a bit sketch. Its reporting me at 400k dps as outlaw (880 ilvl, EoC w/ chest, Insignia, Greenskin). Whereas the last public build it was 520k and much closer to realistic expectations

what if any changes did they have to 710-03 that affected our dps this much?

[pseudo grove]

prob EoC nerf

that wasn't in previous

and not sure what data are in the new

if it's 7.1.0 or 7.1.5

[plush relic]

Strange, when i trade out my 865 EoC for an 865 BI, the BI jumps the dps by a few K, but it's still greatly underappreciating my overall dps by 100k

This is for Patchwerk, 10,000k itenerations, etc. mostly default settings. Nothing else has been changed. I'll try a nightly build and see

That seemed to fix it. Pretty weird though

[pseudo grove]

EoC has been nerfed a while ago

[pulsar escarp]

What Was nerf in eoc ?

[pseudo grove]

30% crit

I mean from the proc

something along that

[little pelican]

I have a couple of questions for the 715 simc (assa)

- why is the rupture/envenom relation so skewed compared to live when no changes have been made to make rupture stronger, specifically.
- is there any reason the exsang sim is using a master alch relic, and all the haste gear etc.
- how come dps is so extremely low all around compared to on live, just in general?```

[pseudo grove]

mostly because I didn't much updated it

[pseudo grove]

http://blog.askmrrobot.com/machine-learning/

the article isn't that bad

I recommend it to everyone

also, we're (almost) mentionned there !

There is another set of people creating 4D plots to figure out secondary stat relationships, also cool. @manic pulsar

[pseudo grove]

PS: Despite the title, it's not Machine Learning 😃

[lilac grove]

@pseudo grove why would there be more energy regen with weapon master than master of subtlety as sub?
Respectively speaking about simulationcraft. The only thing I could think off is a finisher double proc'ing relentless strikes through weapon master. Assuming 6% is generating more, than 12% from ptr weapon master is gonna have more energy, hence making it more fluid and less dependent on boots.

[wise dome]

Also because of energetic stabbing ^^

[muted field]

@lilac grove wouldn't the WM proc be considered 0 CP for relentless, does simc treat it that way? I remember reading something about 0 cp finalities from that, right?

[chrome isle]

guys check out this napkin math I did which makes me think fatebringer is better than fate's thrist. Sims say otherwise so thats why im hoping i can get clarification of where i might be doing it wrong. 6 run throughs buffed by 3x fates thirst is 72% of a run through (12% bonus x6) where as 3x fatebringer after 6 run throughs is 36 extra energy (6 free energy x6) which is 102% of an extra run through. (35 energy vs 36 free energy). SO where did i go wrong? Why is fates thirst supposedly better?

[pseudo grove]

you forgot RtB

and BtE if you got Bracers

also it's heavily tied to your energy regen (i.e. your RtB rolls, your gear, ...)

[chrome isle]

what do you mean you forgot RTB?

oh fatebringer would also affect RTB

making it even better?

wow

so whats with everywhere saying Fates thirst is better?

the math doesnt make sense

[charred marsh]

when you roll rtb

you losing out on run throughs no ?

so how much energy are you actually saving if you have to roll for the good buffs

then did less run through damage when you have it up

do*

[chrome isle]

yeah but were solely talking aboutrelic benefits. run through dmg % has no benefit when you roll for RTB

where as fatebringer does a little

and when you do go for run throughs the math i did earlier shows the fatebringer is better there aswell

[strong surge]

RT is really good for aoe with mfd spam

[chrome isle]

OHHHH

THE AOE

OF COURSE

thank you

run through dmg% gets multiplied in aoe wher as energy cost does not

so fates thirst = better aoe dmg by a significat amount where as fatebringer = better ST damage by an average amount meanning fate thirst = better overall

fatebringer still better in ST tho which is what matters to me

[plush relic]

Rtb gets cost reduced too

You forgot that

[chrome isle]

no we talked about that above

[vast ember]

Saving 35 energy doesn't equate to an extra run through. You have to spend a bunch of energy building up the 6 combo points to throw that next run through.

It is very complicated to try to work out, which is why sims are so valuable.

[acoustic lake]

Pretty much what ryan said is correct. You can't say that 35 energy = one run throughs worth of damage. The true damage value of a single point of energy would be some sort of ratio of the damage of all your energy spending abilities in proporition with how much of your total energy is spent on those abilities.

[white trail]

You can try to do napkin math in terms of cycles, kinda like ShadowCraft did/does - one full RtB duration is your cycle, it has energy budget(which is not fixed due to Combat Potency procs). You cast some builders and finishers during that cycle. Now you have to account that your finishers cost more and see how number of buiders/finishers change within that cycle

it's also hard for Outlaw since you have to account potential energy loss via overcap or not use simple "have PS proc - use it" rule

[brazen jay]

Okay so the bug @white trail found out with the AR and SS could be huge.
It seems that if your global is shorter than the animation of your SS proccing a free pistol shot, you can get a free ss during the animation. Could be the spaghetti code or somethingm cannot tell.
So if you had a short enough global and procced SS on each cast you could essentially keep a energy free SS spam for as long as you proc it within the window. I was able replicate this with ease and many times.
Heres a log showing this happen:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/HGmnXF9TJ2aWdRVN/#type=resources&source=1&start=2409947516&end=2409959275&spell=103
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/HGmnXF9TJ2aWdRVN/#type=casts&source=1&start=2409947516&end=2409959275

Each of these casts is like a normal cast; awards combo points, procs mastery and yet another free SS, damages etc
Tested on live servers (EU)

[little pelican]

i think this is what i mean when i say the game "hitched" during the beginning of EN. I thought it just didn't any anything at the time, and played some animation that didn't end, and that was it.

[silent zinc]

SimC newest build (715-01) is simming me ~11k dps lower as EP/AP Sin. Should I just ignore this version or is it correct?

[small mountain]

this is not the place for that, but that sounds like a ptr build...

[silent zinc]

"All nightlies posted after 12/20/2016 will only support 7.1.5, as we will be disabling 7.1.0 spelldata after 710-03 release."

You are correct and I can't read

Thanks

[little pelican]

which makes sense

about 2% dps loss

[oblique lake]

Is it correct aethys put out new sims for 715 legendaries?

[sand nova]

yes it is

however they are rough sims

and other talent comps have not been considered

with set bonus, it is looking to be bracers >= boots > cinidaria > insignia > dreadlords

[oblique lake]

DMs

[sand nova]

screenshots are on my laptop

ugh

sec

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/228878985210101760/258851030215688192/unknown.png

without set bonus:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/228878985210101760/258850985940615168/unknown.png

[pseudo grove]

things have changed and I'm currently updating/changing a lot of things, everything should be sorted by the end of the week / next week, but until then be patient :)
About simc, 99% of the things are okay with Subtlety, Outlaw need some little tweak in the APL but the module is okay, Assassination APL need some tweaks (that most of you already reported on github) and maybe some actions need to be inspected

[sand nova]

thanks for your work aethys

one day you will get a blue response, i belieeeve

[arctic raft]

@sand nova, did you do any sims of assa/pirate?

[sand nova]

those are aethys' sims

[arctic raft]

oh i c

[lethal oasis]

@pseudo grove Regarding Outlaw, did the Insignia nerf bring the Outlaw boots closer to 2nd or even overtake 2nd BiS? I imagine they're closer with the 7% -> 16% buff, even with Fate's Thirst being nerfed.

[acoustic lake]

Why would the 7-16% buff have any effect on the relative strengths of the ring and the boots

[small mountain]

Isn´t saber slash being boosted in damage as well? That will make the ring better too

[white trail]

It's just tooltip correction. 16% aura is true buff

[green bear]

Is the ring getting nerfed for assa as well?

[white trail]

Yes, from 35% to 25%

[lethal oasis]

@acoustic lake Because the 16% aura buff affects Run Through, etc.

[acoustic lake]

I would expect 16% more saber slash damage would = 16% more ring damage. Similarly for the boots. With the simultaneous nerf to run thru I would expect it to make the boots relatively worse

[lethal oasis]

Well it's a ~10% trait damage nerf (depending on how many Fate's Thirst relics you have) and a 16% aura damage buff, so technically a ~6% buff, no? But you're definitely right, combo point builders get the 16% buff as well for the ring. The majority of our damage comes from Run Through, however. I guess this is what sims are for. (:

[white trail]

What @acoustic lake is saying is that portion of run through in our damage will be lower - boots becoming worse

[acoustic lake]

Thats probably a more apt way of putting it 😛

[lethal oasis]

Boots nerf, ring nerf. I'm just curious how close they'll be in 7.1.5 (they're pretty close now, regardless).

[remote pumice]

Are the boots changing again in 7.1.5 and I missed it or are we talking about the latest change already in play? Overall were looking at a % increase, it's a rearrangement of damage, ring was needed because if it was left it would have been cray with the aura change. I'm all for dmg taken from items and put more into players, it was frustrating before I got boots/ring

[dim pendant]

@pseudo grove what are your thoughts on the new predictive analytics model being presented by ARM?

[pseudo grove]

it is by no mean a predictive analytics model

there is no context nor "learning" in the sense everyone think.

no one on the earth at this moment is able to give you the complete dps function of every spec

even blizzard 😃

altough, the approach is something both Bloodmallet and Skasch & Me do have since many months

[chrome sun]

Okay, who wants to play detective with me?

I have a rogue with "character sheet attack speed" at 1.64 attacks per second, or 0.6097 seconds per attack

Here's a log of the character auto-attacking a target dummy.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/7LDvf1wxjzXa2nkG/

The periodicity there averages 0.819 seconds per attack.

Is attack speed affected by something I'm totally missing? Is there a latency component?

[summer finch]

are parry/miss still counted as attack?

[chrome sun]

Yeah, they're in the log and accounted for.

[hazy bolt]

some shinanigans with dual wielding?

[chrome sun]

My latency is 31ms home and 32ms word; which doesn't seem like it's the "right magic".

Here's the spreadsheet: no attack desyncing of note.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V0_XbPBI1G1i77H8V4LY33krJZJkWzNoWD0Rq6RxhsI/edit?usp=sharing

The third column is "offsets", the fourth column is sorted offsets, the fifth column takes the non-zero ones, and then there's the average.

Probably something @rain lance has a better handle on.

[summer finch]

i would equip a single weapon (no dualwielding) and try it again, just to check if the ingame value is accurate.

[chrome sun]

Good thought. Repeating the test.

[acoustic lake]

I don't see any inconsistencies myself. Theres 1.64 seconds between every other auto attack, ie the mainhand, and 1.64 seconds between the offhand attacks as well.

Maybe im missing something but that seems logically consistent

[chrome sun]

Hmm. Oh. Yeah; you're right.

I was misled by how close those values are together.

Attacks MH at (0.813, 2.458, 4.097, ...) and OH at (1.620, 3.271, 5.733)

[chrome sun]

Neat. Nearly done with this shadow-techniques tracker weak aura.

[old jungle]

That would be an amazing QoL aura man, are you going to make it public?

[chrome sun]

Yeah.

Probably up on Wago.IO in an hour, if I can verify it works.

[old jungle]

You sir, are a saint.

[marsh mountain]

!trinkets

[chrome sun]

@old jungle - it's done. Took longer than I thought to write a custom MH/OH swing tracker bit.

well, it's "in beta"

Cleaning up the debug code; then dumping it on wago.

[old jungle]

Awesome, I'll give it a field test for you over the next couple days. It'll be great to have for sure

[chrome sun]

Here you go.

Screenshot going up soon.

https://wago.io/4kKe362Nf

There's some weird bug I can't figure out; maybe you can.

[old jungle]

This is amazing man, it works a charm.

Putting it to load in combat helps with the rrors

[chrome sun]

It's sort of randomly breaking for me, weirdly.

[old jungle]

and it stops when the first one procs

[chrome sun]

But for the most part it seems to be okay-ish.

[oblique lake]

@chrome sun is this aura specifically for debugging this issue, or is this intended to be used during play?

[chrome sun]

nope, it's for use during play

there was no real issue

also: publishing an updated version where i fixed the bugs

[oblique lake]

Very interesting

Looking at the wago now

[chrome sun]

Just posted an updated version.

[oblique lake]

How do you know that the proc chance stacks on failed procs?

[chrome sun]

Lots of research.

[oblique lake]

Ahh ok

[chrome sun]

Fierydemise and some other folks figured it out a while back.

(Wasn't me)

Once I learned that's how it works, I wanted a tracker built.

[oblique lake]

I have faith in your methods (the tc community as a whole)

[chrome sun]

This is pretty useful; you can actually use it to know exactly when to pool for SD, etc

The next step is building this information into SIMC as a conditional, and then using it to make smarter APL decisions.

[winged lily]

so

i'm just seeing this

how would you suggest incorporating this?

laxx, deim

[chrome sun]

In SimC?

[winged lily]

no, in game

[oblique lake]

I think he means into his own play

yeah

[chrome sun]

Oh, yeah: okay -

So I've been playing with it. There are a lot of times you can afford to wait a little less than GCD as sub for your Shadow Techniques to "fill in" the last CP

for a finisher

[winged lily]

yeah, for sure

[chrome sun]

this lets you know exactly when that's safe

[oblique lake]

Yeah, ive noticed that as well'

[winged lily]

definitely interesting.
there are times when i just go into a dance and i'm kind of praying for a proc~

[chrome sun]

it's a lot like waiting on old HAT

[oblique lake]

The small time window during a dance where you can wait

[chrome sun]

now you don't have to pray; you can just watch the bars

[winged lily]

right, right

[oblique lake]

Thats actually awesome

[winged lily]

indeed

pretty crazy

[oblique lake]

Playing with it here in a sec

[chrome sun]

hopefully the UI is intuitive

if you don't like the MH/OH swing timer, you can disable them easily

also, the sound effects might be annoying; i am an auditory player and like to hear when ShT fills stuff in for me

[oblique lake]

checking it out right now

[chrome sun]

I'll drop a GIF of how it looks into that page soon.

[oblique lake]

Hmmm

Getting constant errors

[chrome sun]

Might have the old version? What's wrong?

[oblique lake]

https://gyazo.com/b601a3157fbebf837d7d6d2b1535b272

[chrome sun]

I fixed some weird bugs.

[oblique lake]

it may be the old one

[chrome sun]

Hmm. Let me try to repro.

[oblique lake]

https://wago.io/4kKe362Nf

?|

Is the correct one?

[chrome sun]

Think, so.

https://gyazo.com/31d401d698c1df718cb33d320b5729be

[oblique lake]

so the small progress bars are tracking swing as well?

[chrome sun]

yeah, MH/OH

[oblique lake]

Which swing are they tracking, mh or oh

Or both averaged

[chrome sun]

just so you can know how badly desynced you are

one does MH, one does OH

[oblique lake]

no i mean the small prog bars

[chrome sun]

if they're too synced up, you'll push two bubbles at once

[oblique lake]

the colored ones

[chrome sun]

the small colored ones fill in to the "next" hit

it takes the min of (mh_next_strike, oh_next_strike) and uses that

so you could in theory do away with the two red bars and just watch that

i like having the two red bars because it's a visual indicator of how synced up my melee hits are

but more on topic for this channel - I think this is a useful, previously unresearched direction for sub-rogue rotations

we can start to play with rotations that condition on how long you'd have to wait for a sht proc

[oblique lake]

Yeah im definitely going to be implimenting this into my UI. How would you advise me cutting the total size of the aura in half

probably have to individually rezise each element

[chrome sun]

yeah, sorry 😦

it's not very compact is it

i have a 34" wide monitor 😦

[oblique lake]

hey d/w about that, this is an awesome tool that didnt exist before, and it makes sense you would make it to your taste in aesthetic

I'm making a compact vertical version out of it as we speak, ill post it when I'm done and if you like it you're more than welcome to include it

[chrome sun]

Neat.

[oblique lake]

Kk

All done, let me know what you think

http://pastebin.com/ydqfcCkB

Im not going to post it anywhere, thats up to you, its your original work not mine.

[chrome sun]

looks great!

drop it up on wago and we can cross link them

[oblique lake]

Gunna make one small change first, then sure thing!

I'm putting a line at the top of my description crediting you as the original author of the aura, explaining that I only made the visual and orientation changes. Do you want me to copy the description from your wago link explaining the aura, or just link straight you your orignal post?

[chrome sun]

just link straight to it, i guess

no need to duplicate

[oblique lake]

https://wago.io/Ey_is-TEz

[chrome sun]

excellent 😃

[pseudo grove]

good

I can now implement it into the APL 😃

since ppl will be able to do it ingame

[oblique lake]

:), I'm just happy to contribute to the project =p

[winged lily]

can't wait to try it out.

thanks, bros.

[stuck sapphire]

so it seems that we run anticipation for 7.1.5

[chrome sun]

interesting... new results from the combinx?

[oblique lake]

as sub? yeah with the set bonus

You will waste a CP every time ST procs

[winged lily]

yep

[oblique lake]

as DS

[stuck sapphire]

ye sub tier, played with apl today seems to be the best talent

[oblique lake]

no way around it, unless you ran alacrity

[winged lily]

mhm

[stuck sapphire]

did try to optimize around alacrity

[oblique lake]

no dice?

[stuck sapphire]

talking about sub

[oblique lake]

Yeah i know

LOL

i dont mean Rtb

[stuck sapphire]

slice and dice?

= dice or

[oblique lake]

I mean the colloquial saying "no dice" as to say, it didnt work out

ahahah

[arctic raft]

vigor is still wothless for sub i think if you can get 4 ss+ 1 evis into sd

[oblique lake]

Looks that way, I tried a lot of different things to get vigor to work and i just couldnt

[winged lily]

it's an expression, @stuck sapphire, heh

[stuck sapphire]

ye well i had some ideas but didnt find anything worth mentioning, slightly modifyed version of the apl with anticipation beat everything

[winged lily]

"no dice" is like saying, "no luck?"

[stuck sapphire]

ye i got it ^^

[winged lily]

by how much, btw

like, what was the difference,

[burnt merlin]

where can i see sub rogues trinket tier list?

[oblique lake]

!trinkets

!trinket

but not in this channel

[winged lily]

https://simc.skasch.com/rog_asn_t19m_patchwerk_trinkets.html

[pseudo grove]

may u show me @stuck sapphire ?

planned to update things later this week

gonna save me some minutes 😄

[stuck sapphire]

ye can do that tomorrow if you want. havent saved every sim. so this take some time to rerunn ::(

[pseudo grove]

just the apl

[stuck sapphire]

ah i did just optimize the shadowdance part yet nothing major but it was still a upgrade over the other talents

[chrome sun]

i think there's a mino improvement to the APL that we need to make, too

specificaly, using SoD if you're going to energy cap anyways in dance, because boots

i play that way in practice, let me see the line

[stuck sapphire]

ah ye didnt think of boots yet

[pseudo grove]

that's already the case

[chrome sun]

oh, haven't seen the apl in a while

[stuck sapphire]

aethys apl looks rly clean

ncie to work with, great work !

[pseudo grove]

actions.stealthed=symbols_of_death,if=(buff.symbols_of_death.remains<target.time_to_die-4&buff.symbols_of_death.remains<=buff.symbols_of_death.duration*0.3)|equipped.shadow_satyrs_walk&energy.time_to_max<0.25

the latest part

[chrome sun]

yeah, perfect

actually you can be even more agressive, i think

[pseudo grove]

on live probably

on 7.1.5 don't think so

[winged lily]

^

[chrome sun]

because evis is -35 + 40,a nd nightblade is -25 + 40

right?

[stuck sapphire]

without energy gain yes

but you get 10 base energy gain + from haste

[chrome sun]

yeah

so that's something like

15 energy deficit for ane vis

or 25 for a nightblade

[pseudo grove]

I did bruteforce the condition

[chrome sun]

if you're above 85 energy or above 75 (for nb) then you can SOD

[pseudo grove]

from 0.1 to 2 by 0.1 step

but it was a long time ago

so it might be increased

[chrome sun]

my guess is you might actually be able to reverse engineer that threshold

from napkin math

it's one GCD of regen, as fuu says

and the net gain from a finisher

[pseudo grove]

it depends where you are in the "stealthed rotation"

if ur next is a builder or finisher

and how many cps you have

especially with anticipation

but yeah of course

[chrome sun]

so if you have >= 5 CP and energy > 85 and you don't have to refresh nightblade, then you can SoD safely

yeah, for sure

[fervent locust]

@pseudo grove have you tried to sim 10cp talent with sub set? I think it will be better

[pseudo grove]

without changes, it'll be @fervent locust

[stuck sapphire]

hmm only adjusting the apl to do a ss as last ability during shd is (with anticipation) a notable gain. however can anyone explain me why it seems to be a dps loss without?

[pseudo grove]

because of premed & set bonus

because u could be at 5 cp already without

[chrome sun]

i'm excited for anticipation + big aoe FOKing

[winged lily]

^

[chrome sun]

oops, meant shurstormin'

[stuck sapphire]

however using ss if you are on 5 cp during last gcd seems to be no notable gain/lose

without anticipation

[chrome sun]

what does that mean, in context

oh, it's just anticipation that's doing it for ya

hm

[pseudo grove]

yes with ant it's "normal"

[stuck sapphire]

this means if you use an ss as your last gcd during shd you have a dps gain with anticipation however if you dont have anticipation its a dps loss unless you correct it to only trigger if you are on 5 cp (with dS) then its neutral

[pseudo grove]

the thing is without it's not a gain to force an ShS because it's better to do a finisher

else u're wasting cps

(and then shadow dance uptime)

[chrome sun]

i think that's probably it ^

no free lunch

[pseudo grove]

but with ant, since you can pool up to 10 cp it's a gain

because u do not loose any shd uptime

[stuck sapphire]

hmm ill have to test if starting with higher cp during dance with anticipation is okay

[pseudo grove]

u can add talent.anticipation.enabled*x

to any cp condition

• or - depending on the condition

(like if it's cp deficit or just cp)

and x being the number of cp you want to add/sub if you have anticipation talented

[stuck sapphire]

thats helpfull thanks

[pseudo grove]

I think there are already multiples examples like that in the APL

combo_points>=cp_max_spend-talent.master_poisoner.enabled

like this from Assassination

[oblique lake]

Deimos, outside of combat, after how long does the ST tracker (the actual mechanic, not the WA tracker) reset?

[chrome sun]

as far as I know, it only resets when you zone in somewhere new

[oblique lake]

Gotcha

[chrome sun]

i have seen nothing suggesting otherwise, but could be convinced with data that there's a reset timer

[oblique lake]

Seem to be getting error spam in some places

[old jungle]

The smaller version is going crazy somewhere, Deimos' original one works a charm

[rain lance]

Kinda, previously rupture damage per tick scaled with the number of cps cast, now it doesn't, rupture always deals the same damage per tick regardless of cps used, this will be a buff if you finish at <6 cps with high regularity

[quaint prism]

if you're near the pandemic timer on whatever rupture is running, and you have 3 CP and no energy, just Rupture

no need to get to 5/6 CP

(6 with Deeper Strategem)

[little pelican]

its a significant dps gain for exsang

since u now dont have to waste CPs

to 6cp rupture 3 times between exsangs

[oblique lake]

@old jungle I assume the issue you are refering to, is the TextCoord out of range error, which is being thrown by both auras in some situations

[noble dew]

is there ever a point where you would consider spreading Ghostly Strike to additional targets in cleave situations?

[plush relic]

nope

it would be a % of a % with bladeflurry, aka 3.5% on one mob, and BF already benefits from GS on main target, spread aoe

not worth the waste of energy

[noble dew]

right on, that's the conclusion i came to, wondering if there was any niche moments i would consider, maybe AR?

[earnest fractal]

there could be a theroretical gain, if you cleave 2 targets for longer than 15 sec and dont have Jolly roger. but even if the 10% more BF gain over 15 sec is more than the offset of 1 SS(+proc chance/ PS dmg). I personaly wouldnt bother. Chances are if you are not 100% certain your situation allows it, you lose dmg

[little pelican]

strictly speaking, im pretty sure a 2nd GS douple dips, making it 10% of 110%*35%

[pseudo grove]

yes it double dip but wasn't a dps gain last time I checked

i.e. cycling Ghostly Strike

In case you're interested, I listed on MMO-C what is missing currently on SimC for 7.1.5, feel free to contribute 😃

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2057666-Simulationcraft-results-for-Legion-Expansion-(7-0)?p=43967579&viewfull=1#post43967579

[little pelican]

yeah i wouldnt think so either. seems low impact all-together.

[dusky jewel]

hi, im trying to understand better the APL code but seeing the envenom string

actions.finish+=/envenom,if=combo_points>=cp_max_spend-talent.master_poisoner.enabled|(talent.elaborate_planning.enabled&combo_points>=3+!talent.exsanguinate.enabled&buff.elaborate_planning.remains<2)

i cant understand why

&combo_points>=3+!talent.exsanguinate.enabled

are toghether

for what i undestand & is a boolean AND, ! is NOT, | is OR (or maybe XOR).
but what mean 2 proposition adjacent?

[stuck geode]

hey @pseudo grove do u think sims for sub overvalue haste at all?

i get http://puu.sh/t5Kqd/c5d69a22ff.png but apparently this is just like totally wrong

[pseudo grove]

no it's not wrong

@dusky jewel it's not boolean

well, it is but it's not true and false

but 1 and 0

in your example, it will be 3+0 or 3+1

[dusky jewel]

thanks 😃

[pseudo grove]

there are multiple issues in Assassination APL btw

see: https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/issues/assigned/Aethys256

if you want to Pull Request, feel free, otherwise I'll do it one day don't worry 😄

[late gyro]

i have an 880 urn, 885 memento, and 890 BTI, what two should i use? i seem to get more dps using urn and memento

[pseudo grove]

Real PPM : 3 (Frost Death Knight: 6, Unholy Death Knight: 4.98, Havoc Demon Hunter: 4.35, Feral Druid: 6.72, Beast Mastery Hunter: 8.4, Marksmanship Hunter: 6.72, Survival Hunter: 4.5, Windwalker Monk: 6.3, Retribution Paladin: 4.2, Assassination Rogue: 3.51, Outlaw Rogue: 8.4, Subtlety Rogue: 9, Enhancement Shaman: 9, Arms Warrior: 3.3, Fury Warrior: 5.16)

From our master Navv

I wanted to share it with you because, it's a bit wtf 😄

but be careful, RPPM are a bit weird since Legion 😄 it's data that are in the PTR client atm, they might change it at some point server side

[white trail]

for what item is that?

[pseudo grove]

http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=140806/convergence-of-fates&bonus=3516

45s sec of reduction on shadow blades per min

with bracers I guess we're close to 100% uptime

same for outlaw with AR and TB

[sand nova]

does this information boost the value of bracers compared to what you previously thought aethys?

[pseudo grove]

pretty sure it won't stay like this

well, since you can wear 2 legs, you'll always aim for boots & bracers

Shadow Blades 3.5 0.1 100.3sec 98.3sec 78.50% 80.90% 0.1(0.1) 2.8 78.50% uptime

with ant & T19

Shadow Blades 3.5 0.0 99.5sec 100.1sec 28.54% 29.90% 0.0(0.0) 3.3 without bracers & only trinket

and 18% without both

[winged lily]

wow..

[dusky jewel]

what are the modifier for the damage of a rupture's tick in 7.1.5?

attack power,double damage for a critical strike, versatility,
assassin resolve, vendetta,
elaborate planning, deeper stratagem, nightstalker
blood of assassinated, gushing wound, slayer's precision.

i miss anything for an ep/nght/ex build? because for simcraft 7.1 my calculation coincide with the max simulated, but for the last issue in 7.1.5 it diverge substantially

[white trail]

@dusky jewel serrated edge and agonizing if you use it

and hemo

[dusky jewel]

clearly with ep/exanguinate, but serrated edge improve crit damage or crit chances? i thought that was chance

[white trail]

chance but you listed "critical strike" so I thoguht you account crit chance as well