yes mand except if vendetta come back in more than 10s from my memory
#tc-updates
pseudo grove
actions.maintain+=/kingsbane,if=(talent.exsanguinate.enabled&dot.rupture.exsanguinated)|(!talent.exsanguinate.enabled&(debuff.vendetta.up|cooldown.vendetta.remains>10))
didn't tried to tweak the 10s
feel free to 😛
@little ice duplicate the actor, and change old_war to prolonged_power in the 2nd actor and figure
@gray fulcrum I'm not sure on the error, altough it should still work
gray fulcrum
Ok thanks. Just seemed that it simmed a little low compared to what It usually does
plush relic
that means it wouldnt be syncing cds on 3x vendetta relic due to that being a 15s cd difference
thick heath
@pseudo grove did you get a chance to check out the logs i posted yesterday concerning Poison Bomb damage and Zody bracers?
tall magnet
i got a quick quuestion how is Terrorbound nexus and Illy'gnoth trinket for Poison Assasin
grizzled kite
As AP/EP rogue how much versatility should I get? Because at this point simc tells me I need almost equal amounts and Im at 105% mastery and 7.53% Versatility(3012 to be exact). I also have 41 Crit.
marble cosmos
@pseudo grove So.. about what we talk earlier...
Ppl report a bug and Vendetta is not buffing Kingsbane damage, i checked at warcraflogs, if u took kingsbane damage, and remove vendetta aura, damage dont change. Also tested on dummy, and few ppl already reported for blizxard.. in that case kingsbane suposed to use on CD dont?
thick heath
Vendetta also doesnt buff poison bomb damage
small mountain
are you sure about that?
marble cosmos
99% sure to vendetta
and i was delaying Kingsbane for vendetta with 3Ma :/
using on Cd bow
deft hatch
Does simc agree or does it buff them?
burnt scroll
well shit
seems like Kingsbane isn't indeed buffed by Vendetta
Looking at this. The Kingsbane proc at 1:45.333 does 54808 ; after that, Vendetta fades, and the next tick at 1:47.334 crits for 109615 which is exactly double of previous value
means the 30% dmg lost from Vendetta dropping isn't even there :<
might want to be verified by some <@&226424944148480000> but I don't see how it wouldn't be, looking at the logs.
Only shitty thing is you can't isolate AP procs once it's at 5 stacks on warcraft logs it seems. Or at least I can't find how
burnt scroll
tbh I also don't get how the +15% to Kingsbane damage works.... the numbers I have definitely aren't +15% per AP/DP proc
except if there's some kind of internal GCD
wicked lark
does push from the shadows kingsbane? if not there is no reason to delay kingsbane for vendetta with 3x ma
burnt scroll
it's not a lethal poison so I wouldn't think so
vapid carbon
yeah, tooltip states only lethal poison triggers kingsbane
wicked lark
ye, wouldn't think so either
burnt scroll
I picked someone with DP so that we can see the Lethal poison procs
vapid carbon
so just use kingsbane on cd?
burnt scroll
but I still have no clue as to how the damage are ramping up
vapid carbon
hm
burnt scroll
there are 3 DP procs inbetween, so getting from a 119,096 tick from a 269,720 crit makes no sense with or without Vendetta being bugged
wicked lark
I asked this some days ago and checked some logs, pinch seems to delay kingsbane for vendetta and that was the reason alot of other people have done it too
burnt scroll
yeah but being a copycat doesn't mean it's the best way to play
wicked lark
true
burnt scroll
that may be the best, until someone finds out there's no use to delaying it because it's bugged anyway
wicked lark
I mean, if u can get another use out of kingsbane because of this it's not that small of a gain
easiest fix, get boots and just use everything on cd
😦
pure pelican
maybe the 12sec dot refresh from deadly poison also counts to kingsbane (like agonizing refresh)
chrome sun
Sure looks like Vendetta's not applying.
Tweet at one of the devs, perhaps? Might be an easy clarification, or it might be too earlier and I'm missing something else obvious.
burnt scroll
Someone has a simc line for the Six-feather fan ?
bright sparrow
trinket2=,id=141585,bonus_id=1497
burnt scroll
thanks
viral thunder
Anyone on here possibly might take time to look at a log and see how the rogue involved might improve on?
azure glen
First enormous thing is rupture needs to be 100% uptime. Even with the craziness going on there's no reason rupture should ever fall off. 86% uptime is a HUGE dps loss
Same thing with garrote. 77.8% uptime
Both those is a huge dps loss and you're losing energy.
Kingsbane could have been castes a total of 7 times. Only 5
Those 3 things are pretty substantial.. as well as not using old war pots on a single target.
marble garnet
how many length fight for sim my caractere plz ?
hum i got question 3 relic recu vendetta 860 is better 3 800 rupture ?
880
mental needle
3 860 vendettas vs 3 880 ruptures?
small mountain
does that look like theorycrafting to you people? go to #228879234540503040
viral thunder
Wonkabar thanks a lot, that's quite helpful. He would rather listen from a rogue rather than me because he thinks everything I say about him is a personal attack.
XD
vague owl
can i ask about KB and Vandetta
should they be cast together?
or should i do it on cd
azure glen
Do you have MA relics ?
azure glen
Then there is no reason for you to be waiting for vendetta really. kingsbane damage doesn't benefit from vendetta. Your best bet is to build 6 combo points with a full energy bar. Envenom, then kingsbane
wraith basin
Hey - I'm trying to trick my simcraft to pretend that i have the sub boots, i figured i'd just change the item ID, but im wondering whats the heck bonusID is, and if its relevant, where can i find it?
stuck sapphire
guys this is theoriecrafting. move the Discussion to another channel!(general or simple question)
vague owl
sorry
stuck sapphire
for simcraft, you can go to wowhead and get the id's from there
pseudo grove
if the guy who did this:
is around
well, you forgot to mentions 2 key points
environment & things that skews a lot
ex, legendary
brazen jay
It was one of the green ones on discord. Name starting with a
pseudo grove
hmm, @pallid halo then ?
brazen jay
No, it was in the theorycrafters category. A name I've not seen before
pallid halo
@hollow harness
and I agree. This account for skill skewing either, which is far more significant that people care to admit.
i'm guessing if you normalize the data against a similar sweep of ilvls, you'd see a singificant diviance between how each spec scales in model vs logs
mind, it is a guess
pseudo grove
also raid have an impact
population
etc...
the more people you have, the more the "top 1000" will be "better"
like, when you have 2000 Subtlety vs 45000 Fire Mage for example
I would like to see the data with the whole serie (ie, all available logs)
manic bramble
I wonder what the results would be like if you could ignore mythic Dragons for melee
and possibly mythic Cenarius for outlaw
I guess I can see it on a per encounter basis
dreamy slate
At first I found the idea interesting, would have been fun to see his conclusion (since ilvl say so little as far as I know). But you are totally right, there is a selection bias here. I lost interest after reading the method
dense otter
@pseudo grove What are your thoughts on Outlaw when people get Mythic geared, your sim's show that it's topping damage average. But most people are swearing by Sin saying OL is too random.
earnest kite
guys, did you see the nighthold set will give haste/mastery for every spec? what will be of sin spec since the last set is focused on bleed but poison? im kind of confused right now. sin uses mastery for poison and versa for bleed, the set gives mastery but focuses on bleed effects.. how should sin be rolled in future? any ideas?
runic tapir
Ehm, 4 piece bonus is poison-favored, and bleed bonus is just straight venomous wounds regen increase
Dunno why you think its bleed based
pseudo grove
@dense otter context, it's the thing that make sin overall better in EN
and prob ToV like the 2nd boss
plush relic
@hollow harness Very interesting work! As a statistician I really enjoyed reading it! To cope with the sampling bias raised by Aethis, which is a consequence of selecting top 1000 logs and discarding "outlier", a possibility is to use the full data (all the logs) and apply a quantile regression instead of a classical regression. It is robust with regards to outliers and also would give you confidence intervales that reflect your real sample size of the logs. I believe "geom_quantile" would do the job, but I would need to check!
@pallid halo (sorry missed my first call)
pallid halo
That was @hollow harness 's work
plush relic
Oops sorry, I missunderstood! Thanks for the correction!
pseudo grove
and that's Aethys not Aethis @plush relic 😛
plush relic
Haha, I should really open my eyes this morning! Sorry about that!
burnt scroll
I've tweeted to WarcraftDevs about the Vendetta/Kingsbane issue. Will see if it gets any attention @chrome sun
pallid halo
@burnt scroll what kingsbane/vendetta issue?
quick oasis
i think this question belongs here, but not sure. how do i ensure that i am using the correct nightly builds of simc? i've been uninstalling my current version of simc, and have been downloading the installer exe from http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D when i notice an update. is this the right way to do it?
acoustic lake
yeah pretty much
vapid carbon
@pallid halo it seems like kingsbane doesn't get affected by vendetta
plush relic
@pseudo grove @pallid halo As we discussed yesterday, I did a similar analysis to @hollow harness but using quantile regression. I used the full database and fit a linear regression for quantiles from 0.25 to 0.95, with a common slope for every encounter/difficulty but an intercept for each encounter/difficulty. Model is too simplistic but provides good insights! Indeed using only the top 1000 introduced a selection bias which where underestimating scaling for sub. As expected, without this bias, sub scale better followed by assa and outlaw, which is, correct me if I am wrong, in agreement with model simulations.
Also, the fact that both assa and sub share a similar shape for the curve let me believe that is can be interpreted as the combination for skill + environment impact. It is different for outlaw because we also need to take into account RNG, that would be why the curve is much steeper in this case.
If you are interested I also did the analysis for the bracket 870-875 as it seemed that scaling slowed down on Antiarc's plots. If you want more details and/or the code I will be happy to share!
pallid halo
i think the steeper curve would be dominated simply by the rng factors for the spec, but you'd need to compare again sim stats
plush relic
Yep that's what think too!
hollow harness
Oh man, neat, I'm glad people are running with that 😄
plush relic
@hollow harness If you could give me the full database also, without censoring data after 875, I'd be happy to to the analysis for the full scope of ilvl! 😃
hollow harness
There's all kinds of faults and biases and crap in what I put together
@plush relic Will do, it's like 15gb uncompressed but will compress well
plush relic
Wow yeah that's huge, I may not be able to run it on my desktop but i'll try!
hollow harness
That's why I only put the distilled CSVs into the repo 😃
plush relic
Fair enough 😃
hollow harness
I am very definitely an amater statistian, to be sure. I know just enough to be dangerous and misleading. But I'm interested in being as honest as I can the the data and results, so corrections and such are most welcome
plush relic
I can send you my code if you are interested (but it is much less "clean" as yours ^^)
Analysis for the 870-875 bracket only
hollow harness
I'd love to see it, definitely
Our data science team at work uses Mathematica, which is beautiful but my puny programmer brain can't make heads or tails of it
At least R I can work with 😃
plush relic
I love R, I must say I work this out only because you worked in R in your project 😃
I pm you the code!
hollow harness
Thank you!
brazen jay
A question to our greens who work/know something about the modeling on simc. Does EP give the damage modifier to the envenom you cast to get the buff up.
Cause when you look at logs on wcl, it shows the envenom cast under the effect of EP just like the envenom poison application chance buff
But in reality the envenom you cast to get EP up doesnt benefit from the damage bonus on EP
pallid halo
ep?
brazen jay
Elaborate planning, row 1 talent
pallid halo
looks like it accounting for attack per second in its multiplier
brazen jay
What?
thick heath
wEak - Today at 8:54 AM
A question to our greens who work/know something about the modeling on simc. Does EP give the damage modifier to the envenom you cast to get the buff up.
Cause when you look at logs on wcl, it shows the envenom cast under the effect of EP just like the envenom poison application chance buff
But in reality the envenom you cast to get EP up doesnt benefit from the damage bonus on EP
pallid halo
i could be wrong, i didn't write it, @rain lance did. But it looks like the damage bonus is being modified by the number of attacks from envenom
thick heath
Completely true, thats why all the guides saying dont refresh until it runs out
is wrong
pallid halo
if self.talents.elaborate_planning:
finisher_aps = 0.0
for ability in attacks_per_second:
if ability in self.finisher_damage_sources and 'ticks' not in ability:
finisher_aps += sum(attacks_per_second[ability])
self.elaborate_planning_multiplier = min(1, 5 * finisher_aps)
thick heath
You do as much damage from a 3pt envenom while EP is still up (like .5 secs left) as a 4 point if its not up
pallid halo
if self.talents.elaborate_planning:
elaborate_planning_mod = 1 + (0.15 * self.elaborate_planning_multiplier)
brazen jay
Im not sure I understand complitely what these lines mean.
But what I wanted to ask:
When you use a finisher and get the 15% damage buff. Does simc give that 15% damage bonus to the finisher you used if you didnt have the buff up beforehand
pallid halo
oh, wait you mean simc
brazen jay
Yes
pallid halo
idk about simc, i do know it just applies spell data from the game. presumably, it just applies the buff and works itself out
brazen jay
Then it could be wrong. As you get both the EP buff and envenom buff the moment you use envenom.
But that envenom cast only benefits from the envenom buff and not the Ep buff. This would lower the value of EP a little in simc if this was the case.
hollow harness
@plush relic https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ngfuhs9xcg0k8f/data.tar.gz?dl=0 - that's about 1GB, and will decompress to 14GB of JSON
You'll want to use my distill.rb script to boil it down into CSVs, unless you're an R json wizard-ninja 😃
plush relic
I'll have a look at that! Many thanks!
silk tinsel
Have there been done any scaling curves with mp / ap
finite panther
hello there
is there any soft cap of mastery for ass rogue?
cause i have 115% mastery, and when i put on ring with moar mastery for 118% there is no percent gain in dmg for agonising poison
native frigate
is anyone even working on the assassination simcraft? exsang is broken with 3 MA and apparently mp is broken as well
strong surge
Sim wants to use second vendetta at 1.40
as far as I remember
removing "cooldown.exsanguinate.remains<5&dot.rupture.ticking" from this line "vendetta,if=talent.exsanguinate.enabled&cooldown.exsanguinate.remains<5&dot.rupture.ticking" helps
thick heath
Simcraft not showing increased damage on zod bracers for poison bomb also
rain lance
Discussion of datemined changes are not allowed in this channel until the official patch notes. After that discussion of PTR changes should focus on math not whining, whining will be deleted. <@&226424944148480000> <@&224906552333697025>
bright sparrow
Was playing around with the sub apl again, and I believe that the pre-ShD CP condition should be changed when alacrity is taken to pool to 2-3 CP instead of 0-1
chrome sun
interesting
this is exactly what this channel is for, for anyone who is wondering
tell me more
bright sparrow
This makes sense based on in-game testing as well, because you want relentless strikes energy regen in the middle of your sd, and entering shd with 0-1 means that won't happen
and here are the sim results
chrome sun
👍 will take a look
in theory that makes sense to me
actually, extending that logic a bit further; wouldn't it make sense to have variable energy pooling thresholds to enter ShadDance at different numbers of combo points?
bright sparrow
I don't have the apl correct there, it doesn't check for alacrity or number of targets (doesn't matter at 3+ because shuriken storm
chrome sun
i.e. you need more energy for the "enter-at-1" case because you want to get off 2 ShadStrikes
but for the "enter at 3" case you're okay with "SS -> finish -> ss -> ss -> ss
bright sparrow
I also played around with changing the energy pooling value to 45 instead of 55 because you get 10 more energy in the dance with alacrity. it showed more dps but by margins like 300 dps
chrome sun
the energy you get in the dance is a function of your haste, right?
bright sparrow
I don't think that works with enter at 3 reliably, you get a sht every 2-3 globals, you would have to go in with 4 for that
yes
chrome sun
oh, no i see what you're saying
nice. marginal gain, but an unambiguous gain
👍 from me
so with alacrity you definitely want to start at 3, right?
for the same reasons we start at 1 CP with premed?
chrome sun
but you want that sht proc to put you between 5 and 6, not 4 and 5, right?
bright sparrow
hmm
chrome sun
all else equal, better to finish on more CP to be more energy efficient
the current premed-centric build only dances on 1 CP, not zero, iirc
bright sparrow
yeah I think you're right but the 3-4 sim is slightly less dps
i wonder why
no, it dances on 0
chrome sun
oh. hmm.
``` you're righti would have assumed you only want to dance on exactly one CP
(assuming DS)
bright sparrow
actions.stealth_cds+=/shadow_dance,if=combo_points<=1 is the line
chrome sun
aye, yep
bright sparrow
if you dance on only 1 sht can overcap you with a fortune's bite proc
chrome sun
wonder if it's a gain or loss to change to ==
mmmm
yep.
well, that's interesting
there's a tradeoff
dancing on zero means yeah, you won't be overcapped due to fortunes bite
but it also means you spend more 5 CP finishers than 6
bright sparrow
I have simmed only 1 with premed and sims show as a loss
bright sparrow
I also play that way and I do get a lot of 5 cp finishers, but it doesn't really matter in the end
bright sparrow
Weaponmaster also procs a shadowstrike sometimes for double cp and that throws the whole thing out the window
chrome sun
yeah, i've seen that too
bright sparrow
Yeah, I enjoy playing around with it
chrome sun
the awkwardness comes on whether or not you can count on a shadtech proc
bright sparrow
this is more gameplay-centric and probably hard to put in a sim, but when you enter at 0 with premed sometimes you want to delay your 3rd global up to .5 sec to fish for a sht proc
chrome sun
yeah, exactly
i'm going to put sht proc tracking into the sim
so you can condition on "autoattacks since last proc"
bright sparrow
but doing shadowstrike as 3rd global isn't bad, you just finish 4 strike 5 and just sht/backstab to next finisher
I've thought about making a weakaura for that in game but it seems like too much microoptimization
chrome sun
the first two autoattacks after a proc have probability zero to proc it, the third autoattack has 1/3rd chance, the fourth has 1/3rd chance, and the fifth has 1/3rd chance, cumulatively
i've got one
it's not too much work, you need to track the combat log
bright sparrow
so it's a guaranteed proc by the 5th?
chrome sun
and then you can play around it by either holding the dance CD till exactly after a proc fires
yes
5th autoattack hit
misses/dodges/parries/whatnot won't progress the counter
bright sparrow
blocks?
chrome sun
also won't
i think it only goes up on hits
fiery has more data
anyways, great work on this
bright sparrow
Happy to help!
chrome sun
😄
bright sparrow
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but does nightblade not tick faster with more haste? I just did a 5-target sim on alacrity vs premed and the dpet of nightblade was well within statistical variance even though alacrity 20 was up 89% of the time
rain lance
melee dps dots do not scale with haste generally speaking
bright sparrow
Huh, never knew. Thank you
thin lotus
is simcraft not simming poison, mainly ap correctly? every guide and everyone says poison is stronger than bleed at higher levels. i'm 876 on both with 41% crit and 120+% mastery on poison, but still i sim 20-30k better on bleed
dim pendant
I'm not itemized well for ap build but found the same thing
arctic raft
@chrome sun, do u develop sub apl?
with sub boots, mark of death should be dps increase over master of shadows (at least for me in real world scenario like gharm/ursoc)
gray ivy
stupid question
is Six-Feather fan any good for Sin
just looked a the trinkets for patchwerk in resources
and its not on there
red escarp
Yeah it's good but only at a comparable ilvl
swift canopy
does anyone know if simc is simming master assassin relics correctly for ago build?
nocturne yew
Has anyone had issues with simc crashing right as it completes a sim? I can't seem to complete a sim for my char
gray ivy
so a 870 six feather fan? how comparable is that?
dim pendant
Looks like they have just hotfixed the goremaws bite weapon master bug
bright sparrow
@demios re: alacrity cp change there was one factor I didn't account for, you should still enter dance at <=1 during sblades. new sim here http://scforums.minthe.net/results4.html
@chrome sun see above don't think previous mention worked
chrome sun
i see it. feel free to open a pull request on the sub APL and i'll see it gets merged.
bright sparrow
will do
pseudo grove
can push it directly if u want
stuck geode
@pseudo grove is the 710-03 build screwing up spontaneous appendages sims
just updated and now sims are like 20k lower dps
elfin remnant
@pseudo grove
they fixed goremaw+weaponmaster
quiet vine
Weaponmaster no longer causes Goremaw's !@#$ to deal excessive damage when it activates.
so the way to go is master of sublety ?
elfin remnant
dont think so
pseudo grove
I know @elfin remnant just not changed it in simc yet, will do later
not a big deal, VM is too good in comparison to MoS
small mountain
Too good? Isn´t is just a trade between RNG that can give you nothing and steady 10% damage
silk tinsel
Isnt the rupture change a huge buff?
wicked lark
its exactly the same dmg for 6 cp, 1-5 cp rupture was buffed
pseudo grove
in pure ST yes @small mountain , for AoE no because it procs per target, so more procs -> more dmg, more procs -> more cp, more cp -> more dmg 😃
dense lichen
Can AP outdamage Exs with enough mastery?
cerulean void
so, the eye of command trinket from kara last boss
simcraft is showing the buff as 256.39 crit rating per stack
and it's simming way higher than other trinkets because of that
in reality, at least according to in-game tooltips, the buff is only 140 crit per stack or 182 crit per stack with the chest
trail yacht
how do you know simcraft is showing 256.39?
mine's showing 197
which is still off from the 141 it's supposed to
rain lance
@pseudo grove @chrome sun any idea on the eye of command stuff above
cerulean void
@trail yacht I have the kara chest, so Im assuming its doing 197*1.3 = 256
rain lance
@rough narwhal that should go in #228879234540503040
chrome sun
I didn't implement that trinket; unfortunately I can't check at the moment - consider grepping through the codebase for it?
gritty grove
@west relic i should hate you 😄
west relic
I guess i shoulnt add that i got the Moroes bleed thingy 880 + socket
on the same run
the same week i got the headless mount
worldly crest
Outlaw sims shows that potion of prolonged power is siming only 3k less than old war on ST and ahead for cleave/hetic cleave
Can any one relate to this?
rain lance
log analysis should go in #228878985210101760
rich drift
when using simcraft how can i set the ilvl of relics that i dont have to sim those over what i currently have equiped?
rain lance
look at the last page of simming yourself in #rules-and-guides
rich drift
oh ok i see now thank you
proper hinge
I've been thinking bout the ptr sub changes and what i think is it's gonna make sub play more fluid, So right now we gotta do the 4 ss and an evi every sd. With the changes we will be going only for the sstrikes during sd and stacking the cps for juicy evis outside of sd thanks to anticipation/shadow focus. Thats what I think blizz is going for with this spec, more bout sstrikes during sd and less bout trying to squeeze finishers during that limited window.
Sonds like fun imo
proper hinge
Idk i saw 10 energy sstrikes and began thinking ey
pseudo grove
where did you see that ?
on PTR it shows 25% and the malus in client data is -50
(was -30 before)
plush relic
ptr build: Shadow Focus (Subtlety) Abilities cost 50% 75% less Energy while Stealth or Shadow Dance are active
brazen jay
There has been an additional subtlety only modifier and it still is there. Just log on to ptr and see for yourself
pseudo grove
😃
plush relic
is sf 75% now? i saw that value in the patchnotes but in the ptr client it still seemed to be 25% only
acoustic lake
Theres literally a discussion about that just above. No, its not 75%, you didn't see patch notes, you saw datamined spell data
arctic raft
why apl in sub is doing 2 ss + finisher rather then 3 ss+finisher during vanish?
crisp basin
the vanish bug wasnt in simc last time I checked so you only have 3 seconds of stealth
torpid magnet
@pseudo grove yesterday's simc build implemented the goremaw wm hotfix yes? WM still simming higher than MoS for me, just checking that it's correct
chrome sun
Looks like it's in master; if you're not building from source then I don't know if it made it into a nightly.
Just compile from source and you'll have the latest:
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/aa397054058f34eacc85046534aa6f79ef974f0d
torpid magnet
ok thx
arctic raft
@crisp basin, well yes, but still you can fit 3 SS into vanish
isnt it better to cast 3 ss and after vanish ends use full cp evis?
crisp basin
it is
arctic raft
actually i think you get 4 seconds of subterfurge after vanish?
i can do ss-ss-evis-ss
crisp basin
I think its been around for a while
actually I think I remember rosvall trying to put the 3SS into simc but there were some issues with it iirc
crisp basin
you cant do that since its not that way when you open from regular stealth
arctic raft
ye indeed
devout plume
So, did some math on the rupture dmg formula that is to be added in 7.1.5.
If I am correct they are removing the Combo Point scaling, basicly making a 3 CP rupture tick for the same as a 5 CP one
anyone that can confirm my math is correct?
rain lance
you are correct
devout plume
and a max CP ruptures dmg is not changing from now to the "change"
rain lance
correct
devout plume
this is good!
plush relic
pls just no prepull gear. i thought it is over
azure saddle
Is the prepull hfc 2set actually worth it though? like we lose 3 SSs during shb, meaning the finishers from them too and SD cooldown. I'm trying to decide
pseudo grove
link report instead
unique forge
hello people
@rain lance doesnt the AP scaling being increased supposedly mean that a 6CP rup will do more dmg than it used to? on its own ofc not considering the other talent nerfs
or am i completely wrong here
no?
also another question
will the new patch make x3 rupture feel better than x3 vendetta? cause of the whole ap=agi scaling and all
acoustic lake
6cp rupture won't change
cloud shoal
hmms, interesting, sims very low with simc (330k) vs mrrobot (400k).. ass ep/ap build. I'm at 400k on fight like ursoc / nythendra though.
867ilvl
acoustic lake
Pretty much all they've done is reduce the punishment you get if you use a low CP rupture. On live you lose a lot of dps for it, but in 7.1.5 all you really lose is a bit of energy/gcd efficiency.
aka easyscape, wait wrong game
cloud shoal
lacking 1500Agi, 12% mastery and 2% crit in simc. Is there some kind of problems with certain gear or how come stats get's lowered?
acoustic lake
if you're trying to sim ptr, yes
cloud shoal
Live
interesting, when loading from armory I sim 380k
when loading from addon 330k
acoustic lake
Well without being able to see what you're trying to sim I wouldn't be able to say. If you give me the report, I will look
cloud shoal
Guess the problem was that the output from the wow addon which the guide says you should use do give away wrong information. The armory import looks ok
acoustic lake
Well I'd still like to see what the issue was with the addon import if you could provide it anyhow, 😛
cloud shoal
sure
unique forge
@acoustic lake but the patch i read on mmo said that the AP% scaling for rup went fro 25% to 150% am i wrong did i missread or am i missing something alltogether?
vague wharf
Will Shoulders/Boots be better than Boots/Ring for AoE as Sub? Considering Shoulders are probably get the nerf bat.
unique forge
u think non DS build will see play?
spare minnow
I think anticipation will be decent for sub in 7..1.5
I'm interested in the amount of wasted combo points from shadow techniques on average for sub, to translate into the real value of anticipation
pseudo grove
the aim of the rupture change @Sangreal#5337 is to make DS less good, because before you had 25% more AP on a 6 CP Rupture than on 5 CP Rupture, now it's the same, only duration is changed (like Nightblade).
devout plume
The current / old rupture has 25%apCurrentCPduration/2
The new rupture is: 150%ap*Duration/2
Meaning they have just completly removed the impact CPs have on dmg scaling
its a buff to the ticks of anything below 6 CP
25%ap * CurrentCP * duration/2 correction
devout plume
one thing I am curious to see though is how Anticipation and Vigor will be performing after the patch. I have a feeling that Anticipation will be a pretty good choice
small blade
This is silly, early ptr predictions before legion launch were - sub is gonna outperform the other 2 spec in 880 gear. After that we went outlaw , they nerfed outlaw, buffed sin and sub and I thought to myself - hey , maybe with those buffs sub will scale earlier - nope. SIN* does not scale good with weapon damage, so high ilvl relics are of little significance. What the hell am I supposed to play and dump my AP in .
Sub is not complex, but it is inconvenient at times when Shadowstrike teleports you at the wrong moment. Outlaw's bis stat is versatility wich everyone claim to be a bad with scaling in the future . I have greenskin wrists and ravenholdt ring + prydaz , I play sin with 43%/119% crit/mastery. With the same gear I sim 50k dps higher with outlaw in sims (with the bracers).
stuck sapphire
this is theoriecrafting. predictions where right: outlaw was best but got (like expected) a nerf, sub wasnt there and sin was for progression and farming
scenic sapphire
stuck sapphire
this is the theoriecrafting channels. this channel is to discuss mathematical models, problems/implementations of simcraft or analyse things that are not implemented yet.
ivory night
!guide
rotund mesa
will they do something about poison bomb 10-20 cp sometimes to proc
keen fractal
@pseudo grove http://pastebin.com/z6ieRvbe text dump with PTR Evil Twin rupture bug
pretty sure 3.3M ticks aren't possible. 😄
pseudo grove
@keen fractal I would have preferred the html one 😛
arctic raft
@pseudo grove, why eye of guarm_haste is better eye_of_guarm_vers in your sub_t19m parses?
pseudo grove
not very important, mostly due to the fact that no boots hence lack of haste
@plush relic ?
profile was made with boots then I removed it, so I should redo it to add some haste to compensate
unreal terrace
i hope they buff vigor
outer comet
@pseudo grove if you get a moment, it looks like simc is overvaluing the base 860 Eye of Command - it should be 140 crit per stack but within the latest nightly it's 197 (I don't have the NB chest which buffs it)
outer comet
Oh cool will do, thanks!
pseudo grove
Will be faster as my todo list is quite long atm 😃
that's the best way to report simc bug 😉
outer comet
good to know 😄
velvet oar
I don't have enough free space for PTR on my PC, anyone tested Shadowfocus + Anticipation? just spam SS during 3sec Shadow Dance up to 10CP and after dance dump CP
velvet oar
obviously I meant Shadowstrike🙃
onyx oasis
Yeah, didn't read everything sos
gloomy bane
Alright, anyone in here willing to give some help on an Outlaw build? Feeling like I'm missing something since the last update. Can't keep damage consistent.
Doesn't feel like just dice rolls.
Is weight info on Icy still correct? I know a main priest was the one that wrote the article... lol.
Sorry, but I don't get answers in other channels. They're just talking about some dumb shit and I want to get to the root of this.
velvet oar
some information on talent build and stats might help
gloomy bane
Like what?
Quick Draw, (whatever), Deeper, Elusiveness, (whatever), Alacrity, Marked for Death.
rain lance
Log analysis questions should go in #228878985210101760
rain lance
I haven't looked at the info in ICV, its probably fine just like most ICV info, or at least not totally wrong
gloomy bane
Just looking to theorycraft this out. Other channels weren't giving answers.
rain lance
Stat weights probably are wrong because all static stat weights are wrong, to get proper stat weights you'll need to sim youself
gloomy bane
I was doing that, but it isn't exactly viable.
Raids aren't going to hand me gear to test, lol.
And time is of the essence, generally.
Is there a hidden haste minimum, or something? all of my stats just feel weird.
rain lance
Right I get that, so we can help you with logs and see if there are ways to improve in #228878985210101760, this channel isn't for this kind of discussion
There isn't a static minimum haste threshold, if there is a stat value discontinuity stat scaling analysis in SimC will pick it up
gloomy bane
More getting 3rd party prograbms to work so that I can play this game... yay... lol
How come Hunters don't have to do all this shit? lol. Little bastards.
rain lance
Everyone needs tools to determine stat weights, static weights are a better approximation for some classes than others but they are still an approximation
gloomy bane
I've tested so many stats in dummies. All stats just feel like a wash right now. Except maybe Crit.
Is that a common feeling right now ammong rogues testing?
Among*
rain lance
The common approach is to use a tool like SimC or AMR sim, especially as outlaw dummy testing is really hard because of the built in varience of outlaw
gloomy bane
I can see that... but the only rolls that feel like they really make a difference is the all 6 roll.
So I guess I didn't feel like it matered? SimC doesn't seem to gice me any info on that.,
Like what dice it uses, etc...
So it feels like I can only learn so much, lol.
rain lance
You can check stjern's guide in linked in #rules-and-guides
rain lance
outlaw rotation, there is also a guide in #rules-and-guides for how to sim yourself
gloomy bane
So, stat weights differ? They're felxible? That doesn't seem to make sense... lol
I guess I don't get why I should SimC every piece of gear, id weights are still a thing.
if*
rain lance
Stat weights depend on your current gear, they can in some cases they can change dramatically
for rogues they don't typically change dramatically but +/-20%
gloomy bane
I guess I don't understand how. I mean, I get that sometimes you're SO deep in Mastery that more mastery is the way to go for energy regen.
Or something similar.
rain lance
The exact reasons is kinda complicated but in general the idea is stats scale better with other stats than they do with more of themselves.
gloomy bane
Yeah, I get that.
I guess I should say: I have, like all the gear I've ever gotten in my bank and I just test different combos to try to "feel" out what I'm missing, but none of it has seemed to matter, lol.
rain lance
You can try that but SimC is likely going to be a more accurate approach to determining stat weights
gloomy bane
I feel like there's a whole concept, or something that I'm missing. Which is why I feel like Sims can't fix it, and theorycrafting can? lol
idk
Well, there's supposed to be an option for that.
In SimC I guess.
According to the guide here, but I can't find that.
Still pretty new to Simming.
rain lance
I don't really understand what you are asking, is your issue you think your rotation is wrong or stat weights are wrong?
either way this really isn't a discussion for this channel
gloomy bane
I mean, the rot I get. It just feel like I'm missing a big chunk of something.
sorry, all the other channels I just get ignored on these questions. They just post stupid shit about other classes and meme's lol
Guess I'll try there.
I was just happy to get someone answering. -.
=/
tidal hazel
There is something wrong with the APL when I import my character (assa, 3 vendetta relics, EP & exsang)
actions.cds+=/vendetta,if=talent.exsanguinate.enabled&cooldown.exsanguinate.remains<5&dot.rupture.ticking
This line prevents the optimal use of vendetta and at least for me it's a huge dps incres to remove "cooldown.exsanguinate.remains<5" command
I'm not sure if this is supposed to happen and is there any way to download "correct" APL
pseudo grove
probably Timon
I reworked Assa APL some time ago and was looking for Feedback
guess you're the first one 😃
tidal hazel
Ah ok. I could do more testing then
Is it ok to use my own char or do I have to use some kind of basic template if I found more bugs/improvements
acoustic lake
Importing one of the sample profiles probably makes the most sense, but if you can find meaningful dps gains with either or we'd like to see what the issue is in the apl
woven frost
Anbody an idea why I sim slighlty higher in a low movement fight than on a patchwerk fight with assa?
acoustic lake
how much is slightly higher
woven frost
roundabout 10k
acoustic lake
probs don't worry about it
woven frost
ok. was a bit confused since in my little world I should sim the highest in a patchwerk fight für ST ^^
grave valve
would energy regen on snd in the ptr be additive or multiplicative with vigor and or ar
unique forge
can i ask what APL is since im pretty new to this?
wicked lark
ActionPriorityList (iirc)
ebon maple
this^ basically it's your full rotation
next wave
Do any of you have any good graphs or plots showing the relationships between secondary stats and their weights? If you continuously gave 1 point to each secondary stat, would their relationship stay the same or change after some point?
pseudo grove
http://simc.aethys.eu/ @next wave 1month old, have the new but didn't upload yet
and ST only
next wave
@pseudo grove Okay thank you. For your Sin (Non exsang), i'm seeing master at 45% for the Green Dot (I'm assuming thats the focal point for highest dps?). Is that 45% OVER 100?
rocky lake
@quaint prism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPvjkW0ZkxM
quaint prism
so how do the scaling factors work? higher the number, more valuable it is?
elfin remnant
you changed something in Simc? some major dps loss for me, like 50K
rocky lake
@quaint prism Yes. Scaling factors indicate it's current value. If you have 0 crit, It will have an very high value until you reach reasonable level.
They are a snapshot, based on current gear.
elfin remnant
and how to fix this one
Scale Factors generated using less than 10,000 iterations may vary significantly from run to run.
brazen tartan
@pseudo grove seconding what Timon said, removing the exsanguinate CD requirement for vendetta nets a DPS increase when using master assassin, even with just 1 master assassin relic, and a large increase with 3 MA relics
it is a dps loss without MA though, so theres probably some less restrictive CD requirement that works best
its something like a 3k dps loss for removing that requirement, but then each MA relic adds 4k dps
edit: looks like changing it to (cooldown.exsanguinate.remains<5|cooldown.exsanguinate.remains>15) may be the way to go, results in effectively no change for 0x MA relics and full increase with 3x MA compared to removing the CD requirement entirely
austere harbor
i have a question to simcraft. is simed my rogue in all specs and possibilitys with my gear. specilly sin. i read mp ap i should get 35%crit and than about 130% mastery. i geared me (witout sim cc) just adding stats und got 36% crit and 145% mastery. i simmed the dps and its so much lower than with simmed stats and gearing oder big different with exsang. no matter what how i sim me in assasination ep exsang is always about 40k dps better than others. mp ap scales about 60k under the exsang build. why all in forum say mp ap wiwll be the way to go? simcraft cannot calculate right with mp or in forum they are all wrong? can anybody explain me it?
undone halo
845 master assassin relic ( i have legendary vendetta boots) vs 880 poison knives relic. I've simmed this eight ways from sunday but its saying 1k dps increase to use the 880. Does that sound right? (i currently have all master assassin relics)
rough narwhal
@undone halo thats a lot of weapon ilevels
so its possible thats accurate despite that being like THE worst trait on a relic
probably wouldnt see a change if it was an 850 or 855 MA relic
fringe musk
I don't know about that, but with the patch 7.1 simulationcraft give me weird results.
Where in the world Outlaw need 20-21% haste ?
pseudo grove
?
austere harbor
why is mp ap simmed so bad and performed so well? is there a wrong data in simcraft?
undone halo
@rough narwhal thanks for the feedback
fluid lagoon
Does SimC work reliably for trinket procs? Having trouble with this
celest silo
its alright, you should consider playing around with the fight style
fluid lagoon
I usually go for patchwerk fight, is there something else I can do to test that style of fight? And how would I begin to learn how to customize the rotations in general?
chrome sun
@fringe musk - if you, like me, simulate outlaw with >= 2 targets, it'll use blade flurry, which inflates the value of haste a bit.
I only use outlaw for AOE, so I'm mostly only interested in stat weights that reflect 3+ target fights.
(my rogue sits at around 20% haste and it's pretty comfortable)
fringe musk
But, if you are at 20-21% haste, how much crit/vers did you loose ?
Have not that much choice in gear piece right now.
I sim myself and with simc 703-02 got Vers> haste =~~ crit > mastery
before, without changing anything i've got Vers > crit > haste > mastery.
Don't know what changed in simc confuse
small mountain
where in simulationcraft can I see vendetta uptime %?
I see interval, but cannot find uptime %, i am trying to compare it to my logs
arctic raft
does simc account that surge of toxins % bonus scales from cp used?
at lesat it gives me various % dmg increase from agonazing
32% - 1 cp, 33% - 2 cp, 35% - 3 cp, 36% - 4 cp, 38 - 5-6 cp
base - 6.1*5=30.5%
graceful vortex
Hi, do you guys know where I could find the theorycrafting on the level 100 Outlaw talent Slice and Dice?
fringe kettle
sinxx i believe it does
arctic raft
@fringe kettle, could you link any exact formula of how it works?
fringe kettle
i don't have that information
brazen jay
Surge increases the effectiveness of you agonizing poison by 5% per combo point spent on finisher capping at 5 combo points in case of DS talented. This is multiplicative with your current strength of agonizing poison
fringe kettle
thanks weak, did you need to calculate those numbers or is it visible somewhere in game
so that's (say, 8%) * 1.25 @ 5cp
brazen jay
Did all the calculations a few weeks back. They should be implemented in simc as I passed on the formulas
And ingame tooltips are worthless when it comes to agonizing poison
fringe kettle
wow surprised it took till then for ago stuff to be figured out. i noticed the lack of any info at all on ap tooltips. thanks for all your work. was it all deduced from combat logs?
brazen jay
Logs ye
fringe kettle
thanks, blizzbama
dry hull
If I'm reading this right, the outlaw sim assumes at least one 6 buff. Is that accurate? I may not be understanding it.
unique forge
where do people get the MP info if they say that sim is not accurate on it?
and why is it being compared to exsa over EP/AP?
im confused some times in this channel 😛
white trail
Where do you see any assumptions made by simc?
rough mason
probably Red, when I simmed as Outlaw it always counted the 6 buffs. And that happens once in a lifetime..
stiff chasm
or while u do trash LUUL
unique forge
sarya - Last Tuesday at 1:53 PM
why is mp ap simmed so bad and performed so well? is there a wrong data in simcraft?
zyZ - Last Tuesday at 8:24 PM
its alright, you should consider playing around with the fight style
dry hull
My outlaw sim always has same buffs and % of each. It's assuming a solid pull with TB favored over others. Wish I could personally set the buff up times or maybe have it randomize over x iterations.
pseudo grove
APL favors TB & SiW
it's normal
u're not looking about the thing you're talking I think
😉
bright sparrow
@dry hull you can edit rtb rerolling on this line actions=variable,name=rtb_reroll,value=!talent.slice_and_dice.enabled&(rtb_buffs<=1&!rtb_list.any.6&((!buff.curse_of_the_dreadblades.up&!buff.adrenaline_rush.up)|!rtb_list.any.5))
if you want it to do even distribution change it to actions=variable,name=rtb_reroll,value=!talent.slice_and_dice.enabled&(rtb_buffs<=1) (will reroll any <2)
tidal hazel
I played a little with simc and this line bugs me out
actions.finish+=/envenom,if=combo_points>=cp_max_spend-talent.master_poisoner.enabled|(talent.elaborate_planning.enabled&combo_points>=3+!talent.exsanguinate.enabled&buff.elaborate_planning.remains<2)
why would you want to envenom <2 sec left on EB when you can envenom like <0.5 sec left
EP*
I tested that with sample profiles and I got more dps with <0.5 when I used ep/exsang but not when I used ep/ap
which seems kind of strange to me
also I got more dps when using envenom at 5+ combo points(when ep.buff not up) instead of 6 with ep/exsang
pseudo grove
entirely possible @tidal hazel I didn't did extensive tests there, was already long enough to make something good
if u're able to do a complete breakdown an open an issu with everything, would be wonderful
fluid nebula
Is anyone else underperforming the Sims a LOT as Sub? I feel like I should at least be close to my 419k Sim, but I max out at much less, whereas my Sin always gets close or even exceeds the sim I do for it. Is this a known SimC issue?
or do I just suck
acoustic lake
bit of both probably, sub is a lot harder to play sim-like than assassination is
valid wasp
anyone know what is better? Sockted fan 850 or 880 tirathons
vale crow
May someone explain me how to craft in theory ? Wanna use simc so badly but i dont know where to get the id`s of the Items i want to scan (the onces i dont have or e.g. relics i dont wanna use directly)
Is there sth. Like a Data base?
pseudo grove
Your WoW game does have the Database you're talking about, and SimC does use it.
Install IdTip or addons like that to see the ItemID, SpellID, PowerID, ...
and read SimC wiki : https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki
vale crow
Thanks :)
zealous sedge
Hey I dont know if this has been answered byt are there any trinket goals regarding on-use effects that you trigger before engaging in combat - then equipping a differnet trinket just before the pull? sort of like a prepot?
I'm atm watching https://www.twitch.tv/fragnance - and he's farming for wod trinkets to use it to snapshot higher blades
Maybe something we have yet to look into?
nvm - something I misunderstood, ignore
plush relic
hey guys, currently im playing outlaw almost exclusively in mythic+, what is a good sim setting for a mythic+ situation? either a way to add add spawns or sim it multitarget
sturdy swan
That's better suited for #228879234540503040 but you can change the options for fight style and number of targets easily by looking at the options page.
pseudo grove
I'll make a thread on PTR forums later this day to make constructive feedback related to our class. Not that much about numbers directly (except for some talents) but more about the overall gameplay and the ton of bugs that skrew everything.
Do not post anything related to PTR patch here and later I recommend you to talk on the thread directly to offer it more visibility to Blizzard.
SimC will be updated this morning for our changes (in fact only BtE back into TB should be added)
stuck sapphire
can you link your post then for visibility?
upbeat mortar
Hi guys, playing as an Assassination rogue with EP/AP and when simming for stats with AMR and Simcraft I get vastly different results for Versatility.
Simcraft puts Vers > Mastery > Crit
AMR puts Crit = Mastery > Vers
Which one would be more accurate? Currently have 38% crit, 107% mastery and 7% versatility
pseudo grove
still making it @stuck sapphire , will do when it will be online.
stuck sapphire
thanks
pseudo grove
still looking for sneaky changes on PTR before posting ^^ in case I missed something
arctic raft
@pseudo grove, could you link changes that are not present in datamine atm, like tb working for bte once again?
sand nova
@pseudo grove just wondering, is that post going to address the shadow nova changes, and are you going to make a specific recommendation on how to make it better?
arctic raft
do u think sub is still going to be viable after those nerfs to both MoS talents and sub boots?
or it is just better to switch to assa and sleep calm?
acoustic lake
no such thing as sleeping calm when you play a pure dps
arctic raft
dno outlaw is trash cos of shitty rng anyways, no point to get 54 points there, so its just decision between muti and sub
pseudo grove
tbh, idc about numbers right now
they could still increases any AP ratio or modifier
to compensate
I'm more concerned by talents balance, leg balance, etc...
but yes, numbers have to come into the discussion as some point
but not by "X spec is better than Y spec"
rather the interaction inside the same spec
arctic raft
do they even listen to this kind of feedback ever?
like ppl suggested millions of ways to increase quality of life sub gameplay, but nothing changed so far
and they keep nerfing exsang build of muti for no reason and leave braindead AP build
pseudo grove
mostly because there is no consensus nor detailed things put together
making a petition on whithouse website to make great outlaw isn't the best way
to achieve something 😃
plush relic
@pseudo grove are there simc versions both for live game and ptr atm? im not sure which the nightly builds are
ideally id like to sim my char with live build and play around with ptr stuff on a different install
rain lance
You can set the version in the global settings tab, there should be live vs ptr in the nightlys
pseudo grove
That is exact. You can also use ptr=1 if you prefer. Put it at the top.
arctic surge
How on earth can SimC value my 860 chaos talisman ( 1460 agility, 932 haste) over my 875 stat stick (1557 agility, 1024 versa) as Subtelty?
Versatility is my second best stat and haste my worst (by quite a margin).
these are the stat weights
pseudo grove
What's ur SimC version ?
Chaos Talisman has been nerfed, if your SimC is old then you don't have the nerf in.
pseudo grove
update it
sterile jetty
Where can one find these nightly builds?
frigid cliff
on the downloads page. read the text
jagged valley
dense otter
well shit I downloaded what i thought was newest but i was lazy and got front page and got the 710-02 which is what i already had..........
chrome sun
SimC can also be compiled from source, that's the way to get the true "latest" version built.
stuck sapphire
not everyone has the knowlage to compile a programm nor has a compiler installed on their system deim
stuck sapphire
ah didnt know you had a tutorial on it ^^
i still think most non programmer will just download the latest version and dont bother doing it
dense otter
nah it's my fault I should have checked the version
stuck sapphire
tbh i think you guys put rly mutch effort in making it acessable to the mass. 👍
pseudo grove
Ok so Blunderbuss is 4*1.21AP Ratio (like SimC shows), they just fixed the first spell out of 4, ie 484% AP Ratio
With Quick Draw and GWW we go up to 5808% AP.
flat rain
@pseudo grove could u explain your methodology a bit for the trinket sims. I see a lot of the different ones you ran. Most I'm looking at have only one trinket equipped? (is this optimal for trinket sims). I'm guessing rog_sub_t19m_1t_trinkets naming convention would be the most well rounded one to look at?
@fallen marlin in #228879234540503040 or #228878985210101760 or #off-topic
arctic raft
does the upcoming secondary stat nerf going to affect stat weights?
rain lance
Almost certainly, how is as of yet unknown
forest acorn
I assume with the 5% crit nerf, crit should have a higher value anyhow
arctic raft
looks like vers was nerfed most, by around 20%, rest is like 15%
pseudo grove
y
plush relic
Is there a new neck enchant id on the ptr, i can't seem to sim my toon because it cant find the neck enchant
dur there is, ill just have to dig for it
nvm
tough goblet
I just tested our 2set on the PTR for Assassination. It does NOT proc Venomous wounds
I'm so sad right now
pseudo grove
they might add it @tough goblet, gonna add it in my bug section
altough, I don't think they'll add KZ trinket
tough goblet
ok. #fingerscrossed and holding out hope
pseudo grove
anyway, simc does assume it works with the 2PC IIRC
tough goblet
@pseudo grove Let me add it to mine as well. I'm new to PTR tho. Whats the best way to report these bugs?
woeful pendant
Did anything change with regards to rogues (specifically MP/AP sin) since the 15th of november? My simmed DPS has gone down 8k~ with identical gear and talents between the nov 15 nightly and the nov 30 nightly. I looked through the git commits but found nothing that popped out at me.
with regards to the simulation rather
pseudo grove
share the two reports
pulsar fiber
where can we get the ptr simcraft?
woeful pendant
@pseudo grove ill put a reminder to do so when i get home this afternoon, ta 🙂
arctic raft
legendary shoulders are very good on ptr
works after vanish/sprints and on pull for sub, dont work in sd
can pull off sick combos, like gain 10 cp after vanish and then 2x crit evis in a row
verbal valley
Are shoulders better or worse than Sub wrists on sims?
If they've been simmed that is
pseudo grove
no numbers
verbal valley
Your current sims @pseudo grove with stat priorities, are there any for 7.1.5 or are they all currently for live?
pseudo grove
live
edgy walrus
does the gunslinger trait work with blunderbuss? it should be a legit choice if it does, with the bracers
crimson ingot
Is it better to run 2x vendetta cd/1x rupture dmg if you have leg boots?
woeful pendant
@pseudo grove My weird sim results from earlier, one is Nov 20 build, one is Dec 1. I re-simmed with the exact same /simc copy from my char: 424k and 417k https://www.dropbox.com/sh/s58cklv12s2reg2/AAAlUOfnOAi34HND7QPhplmba?dl=0
twin moth
Not sure it's the right place to ask.. can anyone help me with weak auras?
The guides for changing colors dont work
hearty wasp
probably not in this channel
twin moth
Color is overridden
chrome isle
whats the numbers on SnD? anyone try it with high mastery?
Given outlaw scales horribly with stats and SnD almost literally doubles our mastery effectiveness it should be worth trying out.
hidden estuary
How severe is the Satyr boots nerf looking? Will sub be playable?
fallow pelican
I think
the top sub rogue in the world on a mythic parse for ursoc or nythendra
doesn't even have the boots
at least, that's what I hear. haven't checked it myself 😄
acoustic lake
Well the rank 1 nythendra has 16 people mc'd at the same time and a sub rogue with the cloak. I don't think much skill went into that one
vast ember
For assassination I have 2 questions about combo poiint thresholds for finishers. 1) Is it worth throwing a 5 cp rupture, or should you throw a fan of knives or muti to get to 6 cp first? 2) Is it worth throwing a 2 cp envenom to keep up eleborate planning and surget of toxins, or should you let them fall off and throw another mutilate for more cps before envonoming?
potent comet
someone correct me if i'm wrong, but its not worth using fok on st, and you never wanna "waste" cp with mut
so if you're on 2cp, i think you wanna mut another time
if you're on 3, use a finisher
i don't play assa so not 100% sure
but this should probably go into #228879234540503040 or #off-topic
plush relic
You do fok for 6cp rupture
arctic raft
did any 1 tested shoulders for assasin? can you snapshot the buff for rupture after vanish?
or all modifiers are dynamical?
dense fossil
does anyone have up to date outlaw trinket sims??
im running bloodthirsty instinct, and dunno which one from either ye of command(860), memento of angerboda(860) or Urn(875)
compact condor
There is no snapshotting for rupture. The Talent is an exeption because its functioning for the whole ability
And is Not a temporer buff
fair owl
napkin math for vendetta uptime come nighthold with boots : https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=60+-+((x+%2F+60+*+3.51+*+5)+%2B+(((10%2B10)+*+x+%2B120)+%2F+50))+%3D+x
unique forge
@fair owl that accounts for MP + vigor?
unique forge
kk
since DS is getting nerfed and the rup is normalized that would prolly be the way to go thats why im asking 😛
arctic raft
@
IlEnergyIl, did you test it yourself?
fair owl
@unique forge personally with ptr testing, anticipation actually felt very good
compact condor
@sinxx no i didnt. Bitte there was a Post on mmo where some people on the ptr did it.
modest prairie
@fair owl is your math showing a ~34% uptime on Vendetta, or is it showing a 34 second CD on Vendetta?
fair owl
34 second cd
unique forge
@fair owl 34 sec cooldown from the moment it starts ticking? so basically 14 seconds off vendetta on every cycle?
hazy bolt
wraith elm
yo guys
just saw some chinese boys playing with master of poisons build
with tons of mastery
do you thing it is viable with 11.5k mastery?
or it's just poison bomb's procs as always, so they got ranked?
compact condor
How much haste this dude have? Im curios because maybe he abuse the rppm mechanic of bomb. Thought of that as well cause i got a Bit haste gear
brazen jay
From my findings the difference between mp and ep is about 1-2% for ep. Mp wins the moment you get lucky with poison bomb procs. But still the dps difference is so marginal it doesnt matter
Rng is what gets the top parses
gilded hound
Does the effect from poison knives on agonizing work only when applied with fan of knives?
Does anyone know?
left dagger
meh, im so torn now.. should i gear for sub or sin for nighthold? o.O
plush relic
How do you find out proper stat weights when you properly using the simc program? My simcraft results show haste as very high stat priority for sub and as soon as I change 2 or 3 pieces it changes my stat weights like crazy.
twin moth
Haste? Sounds buggy
How much is your haste when you get a high weight for it?
Actually, what are your secondary stats in % in that case?
uneven crag
Is Chrono Shard simmed correctly with the increased effect from Strand of the Stars?
torpid tree
can you sim ptr with latest version of simc?
arctic raft
@pseudo grove, thx for post mate, was there any changes in apl for ptr build in simc?
or apl remains exactly the same
pseudo grove
apl is the same atm but some changes "are needed" yeah
woeful pendant
good post @pseudo grove, one thing i think we should adress is nighthold itemisation and all the Haste they
're putting on leather
unless they change haste like you suggest
white trail
Are you sure about that?
Maybe they removed in latest build
It was just fine couple days ago
strong surge
Insignia of Ravenholdt 1 (All): Doesn't work on Poisoned Knife, Pistol Shot, Shuriken Toss. - quote from Aethys's post. thats why I'm asking
wind cobalt
white trail
@pseudo grove can you edit post?
pseudo grove
edited
torpid tree
@pseudo grove thanks
fringe kettle
is the dmg bonus from AP as simple as
4% + master alchemist (4 * 0.03) + poison knives ( 4 * 0.06) + mastery (4 * 0.5 [dependant on mast]) ?
brazen jay
traits are addative with mastery
but yes
Master poisoner is an additional 1.2 modifier after those calculations
fringe kettle
sorry i don't understand what you mean by additive with mastery
the tooltips must again be wrong then, shortchanging us
brazen jay
Mastery gives you 50% stronger AP. Traits give you .9% stronger ap
So your ap is 50.9% stronger
fringe kettle
oh, i see, this makes them weaker than they seem initally
thank you
it was not adding up
brazen jay
The traits are really weak
plush relic
heyho, someone have the current Trinketsims for outlaw?
which trinkets are to the go trinkets for outlaw atm including the kara ones
quick jasper
by my understanding bloodthirsty instict and eye of command are bis
plain flicker
Has anyone thought about the possibility for using poisoned knife in place of mutilate during kingsbane poison in AP spec due to the 100% chance to proc lethal poison and increase the kingsbane damage?
Poisoned Knife does about 15% of mutilate, but the costs 15 less energy and increases kingsbane poison damage by 15% guarranteed instead of 20-50%
plush relic
there arent enough gcds
if it was off gcd maybe
do proc chance * dmg comparison, ~ .3 proc chance * 1 dmg < 1.0 proc chance * .15 dmg
it only is in poisoned knife's favor if you can get significantly more off
which there arent enough gcd windows to do during kingsbane duration
pulsar fiber
I have a quick sub question in regards to the nightblade dot. There are 2 application that happen on a ST situation: One with finality and one without. If you use 6 CB point one its 24% buff for the second one. So the question that I have is: Do I pandemic the finality buffed one to (24s ithink) and let it nearly drop off for an 18 seconds unbuffed one that I then pandemic over at 6 seconds? (This is ofcourse much more imporatnat with the tier set) How does the dot calculation work for the buffed finisher? (Not sure if this is written somewhere, but I only just started looking into sub recently)
torn flume
Is there an estimated number for how the waiste buff will be
fringe kettle
according to in game tooltips, seems SoT damage only applies once a new stack of AP is applied and once again that damage is only removed once a stack is reapplied after SoT falls off ... is this another instance of the game lying to us, has anyone seen that before
fringe kettle
I see that the simc source code actually points this out in a comment, but doesn't account for it ... probably causing a very slight overvaluation of poison knives / master alchemist
brazen jay
they are both nearly 0 value
as they should be
And that is exactly how it works when it comes to buffing AP
fringe kettle
they make up .36% dmg per stack, it's small but there
fringe kettle
that's pretty big,,
brazen jay
that is .9% of 4%
brazen jay
I know, Im the one who modeled it
the traits are .9% increase to the base value of 4%
so 4.36 as you said. Just misunderstood it at first
And they are additive with mastery rating so another reason they blow
fringe kettle
0.9% is 0.036 % per stack, not 0.36%
brazen jay
9% yes, Im too tired for this right now
fringe kettle
right, thanks for the clarification
brazen jay
Sorry for the silly math atm
fringe kettle
no no worries, i'm asking at the risk of sounding like a dumbass because i'm going through the exact calcs i see on the simc source code page (programmer by trade yeee) and i can't make it match what the tooltip says in game, and it's bugging me
brazen jay
4% x 50% of your mastery + your traits x 1.2 if MP is talented
For a single stack
And surge increases the strenght by 5% per combo point used on finisher
Capping at 25% if DS talented
fringe kettle
yes, exactly my understanding of it.
im a little low on mast, my + to ap is 47.5, with +8% from poison knives (1 relic) and +3% from MA.
as far as sim has it, seems to be:
1.0 = .475 + .08 + .03 = 1.585
1.585 * 4 = 6.34, game says 6.1 and 5 stacks says 31
brazen jay
I see
Lemme see if theres been a change via a patch or just your tooltips not working
There are a lot of times tooltips are incorrect
For me it is adding up.
You have ap specced right now?
fringe kettle
yes
would deleting a cache folder potentially help
tried it anyway, same result. wouldn't be surprsied if they were just wrong
verbal valley
How was the 5808% damage from full combo of the Greenskins calculated?
pseudo grove
Blunderbuss AP (484%) + Greenskin Modifier (700%) + Quick Draw Modifier (50%)
484 * 8 * 1.5 = 5808
@verbal valley
this is 7.1.5 stuff btw
and will likely be nerfed
verbal valley
well bracers have been nerfed now
pseudo grove
what's new % ?
verbal valley
well it was completely broken, rerolling 3 buffs for RtB
pseudo grove
exsanguinate being buffed back
pick pocket back to 10y
I assume they read my feedback
anyway
continue this in general-moderated 😃
tough goblet
@pseudo grove ok Aethys. Are you working for Blizzard? Because you make a post and literally a day later. They have made changes to your suggestions
spark lava
is subtlety rogue correctly sim'ed and pawn'ed in SimC or is there anything that one should be aware of when exporting pawns from simc results into the game?
grand cypress
what exactly are the auras in latest ptr changes? are they straight up buffing assa and sub for 7%?
pseudo grove
@grand cypress See the #228878985210101760 pin for the PTR thread
this is not the place to talk about it
I posted changes in EU one.
arctic raft
@pseudo grove, they fixed bte+tb issue on ptr, now it gets -12 sec after it self
small mountain
think thats just a months old myth
pseudo grove
yeah
the thing is
people still complaining
-<
without giving informations
it's like MA relics
but since I fixed this one, I remember
small mountain
it seems pretty consistent with in game numbers at least
close, but slightly worse
cold quartz
Did i mess up my sims? After i swapped the relics to 3 vendetta ones and loosing 15 ilvl my dps went down by 40k. For some reason when i look up the relics on wowhead the bonus id's are only 4 numbers and not xxxx:xxxx as always? Why is that? 🤔
tidal hazel
are you using exsang?
cold quartz
nah
i noticed that i had exsang in first that was 4k lower
swapped to ap and its still 40k below my 15ilvl higher option
to put it in numbers, my weapon would go to 880 and my dps from 410k to 370k. is that reasonable?
pseudo grove
if u had 3 rupture dmg
I wouldn't be surprised
anyway that's not the place to talk about it here
cold quartz
yeh i only asked that here cause i thought that my simcraft was messing around
tidal hazel
@pseudo grove since you mentioned MA relics there is still issue with 3 relics and exsang
It was reported a while back but vendetta usage in bleed build could use some love
tidal hazel
is that right place for it?
I did posted issue with envenom usage almost two weeks ago to that site
but since then I have heard nothing so it feels like reporting a bug using blizzard's bug report 😄
rain lance
Well unlike Blizzard we don't get paid to work on this
tidal hazel
oh I don't want to blame you
don't get me wrong
I just wanted to point out I'm not entirely sure if posting an issue is enough
or do I need to tag it somehow or mention it here before posting
rain lance
You can ping Aethys about it
pseudo grove
yes
generally, if I don't fix something it's mostly because I missed it or was really busy when it popped
do not hesite to ping me "as a remember"
(do not do it every 30mins tho 😃 )
PTR is a bit special, since it's something that changes often it's likely that some mechanic aren't matching the current PTR build
tidal hazel
@pseudo grove as a reminder I opened an issue regarding MA relics!
pseudo grove
❤
real crag
hey guys, anyone have an APL already done for proccing sephuz with outlaw?
i haven't actually checked if it works straight off the bat
clear bobcat
bright sparrow
Can weaponmaster proc off of itself?
plush relic
whats the best relic type for sub and what kinda ilvl loss is worth changing?
bright sparrow
@pseudo grove this happened to me earlier when killing some poor afk schmuck
oh i see
maybe it procced off of mainhand and offhand attack
summer finch
goremaws is a 2 hit attack?
pseudo grove
yes
pearl coral
empty gyro
Since outlaws are on potion of prolonged power too, do you think assassination rogue will move to it aswell soon?
white delta
So liminara says rogues are gods on ptr, any1 try out the ptr yet?
empty gyro
@white delta gods in what spec
rain lance
This discussion would be better in #228878985210101760
dry hull
Does working on theorycrafting involve high level programming? I'm an intro level programmer, and just curious.
acoustic lake
It certainly helps if you want to contribute directly to simc to build the model behind the numbers. If you just want to theorycraft best openers, best methods of play etc, all you need to be able to read is the apl and learn how to manipulate it to get it to do what you want
pseudo grove
i.e. everyone can ^^
chrome sun
The implementation behind SIMC isn't particularly "high level" - just a lot of grunt work on manual testing to make sure we've got things implemented right.
@dry hull - if you're interested, you can check out the SIMC source at http://github.com/simulationcraft/simc
slow trench
@pseudo grove m8
pseudo grove
?
slow trench
why is the handkerchief simming so high in your trinket sims?
thought it was confirmed dogtrash?
haughty fog
Guys, what about subtlety tanking? Up to 51% passive dodge with Catlike Reflexes relics, 100% uptime Feint (50% reduced AoE dmg, 30% single target talented), Crimson Vial, Evasion, Cloak of Shadows, Will of Valeera also. Maybe not really top tier, but ill try it in low mythics maybe. The main problem is AoE aggro generation and lack of taunt, but another rogue with Tricks or hunter with misdirection could fix it maybe. What do you think?
forest acorn
Reminds me of onyxia tanking as a rogue back in vanilla for funsies
rain lance
Threat gen would be the biggest problem, this has always been the obstacle with rogue tanking approaches
Even on single target I'm not sure you could actually hold thread over another dps
Especially if you have to dump over 5 energy per second on feint in 7.1.5
gray quiver
Thanks for the help.
elfin burrow
btw thats the sheet i mean: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vmVwWWnNhrbzi0S_qK6emjFquyUexbTmOEov7vkRjjg/edit#gid=1527109696
elfin burrow
okay, half of my message disappeared.
My question was: in the Spreadsheet Energetic Stabbing has an ilvl value of ~71. Does that mean it's worth losing 71 ilvl to use a relic with that trait?
jolly grotto
No, that means 1 ilvl is worth a value of 71. That way you can calculate your dmg loss or gain with the ilvl and the traits value to determine which is better for you
elfin burrow
ah okay, nice. thanks 😃
tardy bolt
In 7.1.5 when ep gets nerfed is MP and exang going to be viable or possably hemmorage? Especially with the legenday wrists
plush relic
mp is useless with exsang ep will be still played. But assa will be godlike with MP/AP
cyan kelp
This Never gone happen
dense swift
@fair owl ilvl value of precision strike (or dps gain/trait) is wrong. http://i.imgur.com/p1RN8M2.png
Likely dps gain/trait
This is under "by relic type"
sacred verge
Is SimC up to date with kara trinkets?
mental spruce
can someone explain this to me
here is my armory
^ DPS simulations are using Simulationcraft
I've head everywhere that 3 MA relics are the best combination but that doesn't seem true for my character. With 2 MA relics and 1 Rupt crit my vendetta uptime is 43.94% and with 3 MA relics it's 43.99%. All according to simcraft.
thick prism
But that doesnt matter because he has boots, with boots you only need 2 MA Relics to align Vendetta with Exs and KB
tidal hazel
Ah didn't notice duskwalker's
unique forge
!trinkets
wrong chat to use that sorry
i actually meant to ask why on the trinkets list convergence of fates sims so low for sin rogues
unless it is because the sims arent affected by items/relics
dim mountain
if i read the sim correctly, convergence of fate doesnt reduce vendetta CD, as the sim has a 60sec interval for vendetta.
I think the cdr effect of the trinket wasn't implemented at the time of sim
unique forge
it also doesnt take boots or relics under consideration
so that might be another factor
fathom estuary
Hey all, I wanted to pass this along... I've made a relic comparison tool built on the Google sheet that you all recommend. Basically it's built on the layout of the original doc by using 2 additional sheets. 1 Sheet is a data extraction table that gathers info from the 'Simple' sheet. (Easy to reconnect if the Simple sheet changes). & the other is the actual comparison tool. That uses field validation and custom formatting to make it easy to quickly drop in your current relics + available relics and see what your best upgrade combos are.
