It contradicts the sims ive seen
#tc-updates
maiden hatch
pure pelican
sub damage is only better because of the legendary boots in the mythic profile i guess
digital viper
how much mastery do you have to stack and get before single target dps assassination is worth switching to? currentlt ilvl 851, and still does more dps as outlaw. Have around 75% mastery as assass
plush relic
why would you say otl is mandatory for cenarius/xavius?
maiden hatch
Because of cleave i suppose? And TB giving back2back cloaks
plush relic
so counting on the right rtb rolls is an option?
distant crystal
you have to 😃
pseudo grove
sub is better to cleave XD
and way more reliable
also it's not TC things
it's feelycrafting based on some random logs aggregated
😉
by random logs, I mean without taking in account the context
and comparing it to something on another context
plush relic
you're saying outlaw is not reliable? 🤔
plush relic
me neither thats why i switched to sub. otl is just frustrating.. for me at least
opaque nymph
@plush relic Cause of CoS short CD with RTB --> clean brambles
@plush relic + BF cleave obviously
pseudo grove
the only good thing is CoS with TB
but it's not as mandatory as you might think, a lot of classes can clean it
white trail
you can just bring more than 1 rogue
plush relic
CoS with TB sounds great in theory, if you could actually choose which buff you want 😦
pseudo grove
^^
I really don't see anything better than Subtlety atm, anyway this discussion doesn't belong here
manic pulsar
Well
pseudo grove
it's more feelycrafting than theorycrafting 😃
manic pulsar
The probability to get a TB is still pretty high
plush relic
we need a feelycrafting channel then
pseudo grove
feel free to ask to @rain lance lol
manic pulsar
About 25.1%
plush relic
Not so much rng when looking at logs, on m'y realm 90+ ranking as outlaw are always the same 5 rogues
manic pulsar
It's not that RNG reliant
At least the probability to do a shitty DPS is really really low
plush relic
Well don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Outlaw is a bad spec. Just saying you can't count on TB rolls at the right time to shorten your CoS cd to call it mandatory. And Aethys is right wrong channel for my salt 😃
manic pulsar
That's where I disagree
You can pretty reliably count on a below 40s CD for CoS if you roll for TB specifically
plush relic
Maybe im completly wrong. Just my personal experience that I can't count on my dices
plush relic
hey guys, ive been using lightmovement to more closely simulate a raid environment than patchwerk, but today i noticed that depending on the sim type, my scale factors can change significantly
which of the sim types best models an environment like EN? i know it wouldnt be close to exact, but i mostly use sims for gearing so the scale factors being different depending on how heavy movement a fight is would matter a bit
plush relic
right
stuck sapphire
ah ye btw. its not only difrent bosses ita alsos difrent group sizes, the stat wight and maybe also the best talent choice can be diffrent if you have more adds or more bosses, higher downtimes etc.
summer finch
May it be viable to use Shadowblades after the initial Burst to generate more combopoints?
stuck sapphire
shouldnt be the case, but you can adjust the apl and sim it.
pseudo grove
please, rotational questions outside of "direct APL question" goes to others channels
pseudo grove
this is not the place to ask for help on simulationcraft, you should try in #off-topic #228878985210101760 or #228879234540503040, also you might want to read the #rules-and-guides
finally, you can read the SimC wiki : https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/StartersGuide
fervent zealot
ok thx
dark bolt
So doing mythic ursoc today and I was standing infront of him after the charge and noticed that when he parried my finishers it still gave me the Elaborate Planning buff while keeping my combo points, effectivley giving you a pay 35energy for EP and buffing your finisher that was parried.
Could this be a potential dps increase lol?
wicked lark
I mean it's not like u can force a parry - but yeah, noticed this too yesterday
dark bolt
Well yeah but its whether the trade off of standing infront of the boss and having auto attacks/SS parried and if the EP procs make up for it
outer rapids
So if you are parried you can get all of the extra effects, like greed, envenom, EP.
Its been that way for awhile
well old stuff was envenom and some other ones that I cant remember atm.
plush relic
looking through the outlaw rogue APL, is there a situation where you would want to run through at 4CP, if you had broadsides up and no opportunity proc/GS was >5sec remaining on debuff
in order to not waste the CP from the double SS proc
fickle wedge
and i assume you dont have enough energy space to pool and wait for ghostly to hit <5
sounds plausible to me
plush relic
yeah
fickle wedge
a least plausible enough to investigate
plush relic
i was thinking something along the lines if JR is also up, just RT at 4, if it isnt, SS to 6 even though it could waste the CP
manic pulsar
Isnt't already the case?
lapis zodiac
anyone with a pawn string for outlaw?!
manic pulsar
No
plush relic
im saying im not sure if thats the best case scenario
and was wondering if anyone had investigated SSing to 6 vs Rting at 4
otherwise i would modify the APL and see
rain lance
This isn't the right channel to ask for a pawn string, if you'd like to generate one yourself consult the simming yourself guide linked in #rules-and-guides
lapis zodiac
okey thanks
manic pulsar
@lapis zodiac https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pW5mWY9nkfWoRCOHfoXqeeGb8s-jMoSVy-g8uveUv4c/edit?usp=sharing (though as Fiery said, this is not the right place to ask that 😃 )
lapis zodiac
Ah perfect, thanks a lot
manic pulsar
@plush relic I played a lot with tthe APL, especially saberslash conditions
I probably tested that at some point, but it was already a couple weeks ago and I tested too many things to remember
The problem of Outlaw is that its pace is weirdly stretched between energy-limited and GCD-limited
So it might be interesting to not waste 2 potential CP, but on the other hand having a 6CP RT GCD vs a 4CP RT GCD sounds better
plush relic
yeah i was wondering about "-(talent.alacrity.enabled&buff.alacrity.stack<=4)", seemed a bit strange
manic pulsar
Yeah
It's something I have to fix
It was a DPS gain, but for the wrong reason I think
I believe that it was a DPS gain because it allowed to use RT sooner during the opener and then start using CotD sooner
I have to double check that of course
strong surge
Hey, I just simmed myself with 3 Master Assassin relics instead if my 2 rupture and 1 rupture crit ones with the same items level, and Master Assassin relics ahead by like 12k dps. That seems pretty huge and I dont think I've seen any information about that relic being that good even without legendary boots
Also I was simming with agonizing and got the idea from n1 assa on Ursok
rain lance
Seems possible, IIRC the relic ilvl equivalence chart was generated from bleed build
wicked lark
ye, can't imagine them beeing bad - especially the synergy with from the shadows
strong surge
yeah, and you can stack vanish + vendetta every time
manic pulsar
The bleed build benefits even more from the Master Assassin relic than then exsang build
But it's a weird relic to sim, as its potential is usually the highest with 3 of them
warm tulip
[Greenskin's Waterlogged Wristcuffs]anyone know if they stack with blunderbuss + quickdraw? only during shark?
perhaps stacking gunslinger even?
rain lance
Current theorycraft says to use it during shark but this really isn't the right channel for that question
warm tulip
my bad, i mustnt know the meaning of theorycrafting
gets ignore in the other channels
gets dumb responses from the people that actually know
(y) gotta love discord
rain lance
theorycrafting channel is for looking at new TC discussion, developing new rotations etc, it isn't for answering questions that are well understood currently
pseudo grove
this place is not the right one to discuss about current rotation things
warm tulip
i just want to be pointed to some info ❤
not my fault im a month late to the party
my questions got plenty of math in it?
lots of things worth siming surely
rain lance
Sure, if you want to do a sim and come back with results thats great then we can discuss those
but if your question is just what should I do, that isn't new TC
warm tulip
sigh
i figured you guys already did the work
i understand the question im just a novice on simc
my potato doesnt run sims well tbh
but yeah... ill be back with a broken sim result that we can ponder over (y)
swift tangle
Let me say this beforehand. Yes, I have read the pinned guide. I have a question about Outlaw's rotation. Since we get Greed (which is pretty much a chance at free damage from using Run Through) why aren't we spamming RT every time we have at least 1 combo point? The reason I ask this is because on RT's tooltip, the damage scales Linearly and not exponentially. Any clarification on this? Would this change on ST vs AoE? Thanks in advance for the help XD
lament grotto
energy cost is the same every cast
so you probably have better dpe abilities than spamming RT and hoping for greed procs. there may be a number of adds where that isn't true, would be an interesting case to sim out
rain lance
In general the reason we use high cp finishers can be understood through a simple thought experiment, imagine we had no max cps and finisher damage scaled linearly.
In that case you'd want to use exactly 1 RT on an encounter and spend the rest of the time just building cps because you'd reduce the energy spent on finishers but not lose damage
That said due to how greed behaves and its kinda silly AoE scaling looking at low cp RTs on AoE seems like an interesting direction to explore
plush relic
ss+rt+ss+rt+ss+rt et = xSS + yRT energy cost, wheras SS SS SS SS +Rt = x*SS + RT
wraith yacht
basically dpe matters correct? in times that you might become energy capped, does this alter the value of that approach?
rain lance
Potentially yes, worth exploring
swift tangle
I just spilled soda everywhere.... I'm reading this tho! Thanks for the help XD
manic pulsar
There might be some fine-tune optimization to be made in AoE situations mirroring your point
plush relic
im also not sure if greed proc chance scales off CP used on RT, anecdotally from world questing it seems like it to me
but that is just in my memory
manic pulsar
It's flat 35% iirc
plush relic
so not sure
rain lance
Thats what I remember as well but worth testing, pretty easy to disprove
manic pulsar
^^
ember wigeon
what was finality treatment? 😃
manic pulsar
flat +15% > +4% per CP spent
ember wigeon
ah ok
plush relic
before iirc you could 1 CP nightblade and 5cp it for a nice buff
ember wigeon
when was that?
jovial heron
In order to prevent 1CP greed being too strong ?
rain lance
If we start using low cp RT fishing I wouldn't be surprised if they make a similar change
manic pulsar
Especially as we can use two RTs in a row 😄
swift tangle
1 shower and 2 mob buckets later, I'm back and unsticky LMAO... and wow, thanks for all the feedback on this. I've gotta say, I'm in a lot of class discords and they're all full of people just linking the guide if you ever ask a question or full of 12 year old trolls
brazen sigil
are there any pawn strings or stat weigths available for assass or outlaw ?
hexed stirrup
they change constantly based on your current gear
manic pulsar
@brazen sigil https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pW5mWY9nkfWoRCOHfoXqeeGb8s-jMoSVy-g8uveUv4c/edit#heading=h.3lsngyuiznm9
brazen sigil
Nice one 😄 thanks
dreamy monolith
How often does the client calculate things like GCDs and cooldowns? Is it in increments of hundredths of a second?
rain lance
I believe the client recomputes things for each frame draw, you can see this if you make an overly complex WA that runs every frame
server ticks were 400ms until WoD, now I'm not entirely sure, likely <100ms
fickle wedge
that feel when you accidentally reply to old posts
chrome sun
server ticks are almost certainly less than 100ms
I'd conjecture O(33ms)
given what we see in some logs with sub-0.1s timing necessities
that also might just be jitter
it's also possible that the tick rate is adaptive
and a function of instance/world server
so they could in theory drop the tick period (increase the rate) in raids/dungeons/etc when the load is lower
obsidian flower
hi, im not sure if this is appropriate for this channel but i was wondering what the proc rate / chance for a)Bag of Tricks, b) Blood of the Assassinated is ? and is there an internal cd or something ?
rain lance
bag of tricks is 1+haste rppm, bota is 35% chance on rupture cast
for future reference the AMR TC wiki is a great place to look these up: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/mechanic/spell/bagoftricks?spec=RogueAssassination&version=live
(This isn't to discourage you from asking, just make it so you don't need to ask)
zenith berry
hey, how does the opener for AP build look like?
rain lance
this question should go in #228879234540503040 #off-topic or #228878985210101760
winter belfry
Quick question! Simmed my gear for stat weights, and it tells me an item is a 28% upgrade, but simming after gives worse dps
torn flume
Which item
winter belfry
two necks
torn flume
Is your original neck something like the arcway neck
With a unique effect that outweighs stats
winter belfry
No, theyre just some random necskf rom wq/heroics
torn flume
Both equally enchanted and gemmed?
winter belfry
yeah
shrewd temple
You do understand that stat weights are dynamic?
plush relic
they are, but if you sim your gear and generate stat weights, equip 1 piece of non unique effect gear using that weight set, and then resim, it should not be a dps loss
your stat wieghts would not be affected that much
by 1 piece of gear
so i can think that you accidentally changed a setting on simcraft, something else is unequipped or changed
deep oasis
840 chronoshard or 865 nature's call? Sub 77% mastery 33% crit and 9% haste im not able to sim rn so im countin on you guys
shrewd temple
Your stat weights could very well be changed to such an extent by swapping neck pieces, especially if one contains haste. To assert that it can't be a dps loss contrary to whatever stat weights you've generated previously is asinine.
winter belfry
The weights dont change much before and after, tried simming my Ret paladin and Haste went from 14 to 1 after a gear change, but new to simming for weights
shrewd temple
Haste's value is very fickle according to simc.
plush relic
the only time that haste or something would change that much is if you had EXTREMELY low amounts of a stat
like close to 0%
winter belfry
I think for the paladin Zeal seems to do something odd to the haste value, but no such oddities with my Outlaw
deep oasis
How can i change my trinket in simcraft without equipping it ingame?
cobalt torrent
Bloodthirsty trink raises haste 11% plus a clarity haste becomes useless fast
Use the I'd of the trink
Or I'd of the item
deep oasis
how do i get id of item wwithout equipping it?
plush relic
ive simmed equipping my haste mastery 880 neck vs a 850 vers crit neck and the value for haste barely changed
i have ursoc trinket, alacrity, and 13% haste already
cobalt torrent
Wowhead search the it
shrewd temple
Your anecdotal evidence is meaningless.
plush relic
so is your anecdotal assertion
shrewd temple
I don't think you know what anecdotal means, but whatever.
plush relic
stats dont change dramatically from equipping 1 piece of gear like a chest, neck, etc, if it doesnt have a passive on it
cobalt torrent
See I tried running 10% base haste versus the 5% I have now and dps barely changes
plush relic
as long as nothing else changed
prisma plume
why are you talking like your idea is the only correct one 🤔
plush relic
if a piece of gear was a 5% upgrade, you equipped it, then dps loss, i could see it
but 28%? from recently generated weights? dont think that is the case
shrewd temple
Then why is he siming higher with his other neck piece?
plush relic
maybe he changed an option on simc by accident or forgot. Maybe his new profile has a different talent or relic or trinket equipped
cobalt torrent
Bc simc has haste at a high value for no reason at all
shrewd temple
Well then let's have him re-sim and make sure nothing changes, I guarantee he'll get the same results as previously.
Assuming that he was running a sufficient number of iterations previously, and runs the same amount again.
cobalt torrent
10k
shrewd temple
As Mente said, he's going to get the same results dps-wise because simc tends to place a high value on haste, although not necessarily for no reason.
I tend to run 25k for scaling, but 10k is most likely fine.
spring aspen
I've seen instances between making gear changes in simc where the player stats get changed dramatically
Like 300% crit rating
For the fight duration
shrewd temple
After all, we're really interested in dps here, and 10k is fine for a comparison
cobalt torrent
Is boss crit cap still 53%?
hybrid leaf
anyone got the link to @manic pulsar 's relic sim guide? i want so sim a relic
cobalt torrent
What kind of relics? Ilvl and trait
hybrid leaf
well i have a nightmarish elm branch, its titanforged 880, so i want to sim it in my current gear. i cannot find his guide...thought i saved it somewhere..
cobalt torrent
What the ilvl of the relic your comparing too?????
And traits elm branch sounds so familiar
hybrid leaf
880 fortune's bite - compared to - 865 demon's kiss
cobalt torrent
What's demon kiss again?
Fortunes bite all day I mean that's what +10 ilvls on the wrap alone?
That doesn't require a sum hands down like.... *wrap. If it was +rt dmg I would compare
Sim*
winter belfry
Eh now its giving me proper results that the one it says is an upgrade is
shrewd temple
I would imagine he should sim it himself? But yeah, most likely the 880 relic
winter belfry
COuld have sworn it was the other way around earlier
hybrid leaf
yeah, i want to sim it myself... i want to find the guide to sim...
plush relic
!simc
hybrid leaf
skasch had a guide, how to generate ne relic string
cobalt torrent
Uh if you can't find the guide use amr sum where you can config the relics manually
Sim
shrewd temple
Meh, there's still been an amount of haste for each spec that simc will generally recommend to stack haste to reach if you're below that
winter belfry
Thetes youtube channel is where i found stuff for it
cobalt torrent
5% haste seems to be the sweet spot
cobalt torrent
Even with aclarity and bloodthirsty?
shrewd temple
Not sure why you'd have anything but alacrity, but if you have the Ursoc trinket then simc will probably start to devalue haste's scaling at a lower threshold
Haste is generally quite good for outlaw in pre-raid gear and tends to fall off quite a bit, not sure what kind of gear ayrin has
violet marsh
Is there a different ideal opener as assassin for old war potions?
shrewd temple
Found an example of simc inflating haste's value for sub in 6.2, took a minute since I'm on my phone lol http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1601753-Simulationcraft-results-for-WoD?p=37389092&viewfull=1#post37389092
plush relic
hey guys....should i use crit or vers enchants/stones with the EP/Exh build?
tame pulsar
Use whatever the hell you want to use.
last tinsel
hey guy do you know why its saying for me to get terror bound nexus as my trinket for ass rouge
tame pulsar
😄
pseudo grove
@shrewd temple it depends how the APL is done
in fact
it undervalue haste
because you're not as good as simc boy
to cast spells
so you pool more than the exact value
etc...
before legion
APL was using some energy threshold
rather than trying to use dynamic values
that's one of the thing Skasch and Me tried to get rid for Legion
we used dynamic energy values when we could
and accomodate to various talents and legendaries
including Vigor & co
to give fair comparisons
anyway, haste is only a good stats for Outlaw
and for Sub if you don't have energetic stabbing and low gear
also, simming Otl with only 10k
is not that good 😃
and for stats, you should really uses at least 0.05%
target error
finally, fight length (& vary) have an impact
it is as much important as taking X or Y talents, if not more
plush relic
@pseudo grove what are good settings for fight length &vary for simming to scale your stats after a gear upgrade? Or Sim type for that matter
I was playing around with the settings and i noticed that changing movement type on e.g. to heavy movement, as well as fight length changed scaling a lot but im not really sure if there is a nice set of options so your gear is accurate for a general raid situation
manic mesa
question: agonizing poison > exsanguinate now? any numbers/reasons to back it off?
pseudo grove
I don't really recommend this kind of things if you don't know what they do 😄
I use 3 fight scenario
all patchwerk
shrewd temple
Oh yeah, I've been mostly siming with sub lol, generally 25k iterations with outlaw will result in a -.1% dps error but you're just as well off setting a target error
pseudo grove
and 2 fight length,
330+-0.3
225+-0.85
to have "extreme results"
which are always interesting
but I probaly don't do the same as you since I don't use stats scaling directly 😄
plush relic
im just curious as to your methodology for simming your own character/gear upgrades
rain lance
generate a pawn string, use that for a night of raiding, at the end of the night generate a new one
cobalt torrent
o snap is all this discussion over 2 day ago release ?
plush relic
right thats what im doing
i assume the 3 fight scenarios are with adds, ST, and priority cleave
rain lance
I generally just use single target
pseudo grove
I do plotting
rain lance
plotting is technically better but can be hard to reason about
because plots end up giving you quite a bit of noise
plush relic
i definitly want to learn more about using simcraft indepthly but some stuff like this is hard to find good resources for
rain lance
(standard reforge plots, not aethys' nifty pyramid plots)
shrewd temple
I think if you're playing outlaw then it's generally worth siming on multiple targets in addition to ST to check trinket values
6FF tends to fall off on additional targets for certain specs, e.g. MM, although I don't believe such is the case for outlaw or rogues in general
Although idk why anyone would be interested in optimizing assassination or sub for anything aside from ST anyway
plush relic
sub is great at dumping priority damage in from add targets
shrewd temple
Since sub and assassination generally provide great prio target damage
pseudo grove
that's not true
assassination does cleave dmg without big prio target dmg
well, way less than sub
shrewd temple
Assassination obviously to a lesser extent 😛 but I think it's still good if your CDs line up properly, especially with the bleed build
Although I'm not speaking from experience, I've just played outlaw and sub in EN so far
I'd imagine that most people playing sub/assassination would like to worry more about ST damage and leave the heavy AoE to the classes with more efficient means, otherwise they'd probably be playing outlaw
Although sub can obviously provide decent AoE while also dumping CPs into the prio target, especially useful on dragons imo
strong surge
Assa is actually really good for really high m+
since I mostly gear for it and dont have good relics for outlaw I use it, and it does pretty well with alacrity
shrewd temple
It is right now based on what people are saying, but I tend to doubt that it will continue to provide a lot of dps comparatively with gear
strong surge
idk, they buffed deadly really hard
I tried agonizing on aoe and its not even close now
shrewd temple
Yeah, I definitely see how it'd be strong in the interim, although I feel that we're deviating from the topic of TC
strong surge
yeah
pseudo grove
I do as much AoE as Fire mage
as long as skada don't stop
when their LB explodes
so stop thinking sub don't get any aoe tool
we are not anymore in 6.2
shrewd temple
I never said that sub doesn't have AoE, I've experienced sub's AoE firsthand, I still don't see the point in optimizing for AoE as opposed to ST
pseudo grove
because it's not incompatible ?
taking shadowstrike trait over shadow nova
does the same dps in ST
but gives way more AoE
for example
shrewd temple
I'm assuming that is your way of advocating for going the upper route to finality for easier access to shadow nova then?
I also wasn't saying that they were entirely incompatible, but for example, if MoS was actually better than WM for ST beyond a negligible extent, then I'd use MoS, in spite of the fact that WM is the superior AoE talent
I think it goes without saying that given two options that are equal in ST with one being better at AoE, you'd most likely go with the superior AoE option, unless it somehow had a poor interaction with playing the spec
shrewd temple
I wasn't aware that it was as good as MoS without the bug, but that was intended to be hypothetical anyway
covert flame
sorry, what is the WM bug?
soft marlin
blunder buss or blurred time for my second golden trait?
cobalt torrent
has anyone entered a bg with the principles of war buff or w/e and taken a look at the stats and wondered is this the ideal for pve ?
like looking at it now 28% crit 13% haste 44% mastery and 11% versa makes you wonder with shark buff the crit amount makes sense sincey ou would be at crit cap yadda yadda yadda
just rampling
fluid nebula
@soft marlin I believe blunderbuss
cobalt torrent
rambling*
shrewd temple
@covert flame I believe it's a bugged interaction with Goremaw's Bite, causing the extra hit to do way more damage than intended
plush relic
so whats a good list of BiS trinks for assassination cant find one on icyveins or anything i know the one from ursoc will be one but im trying find another good one
astral hawk
hello i got the dreadlord's deceit on mythic ursoc and i have no idea anything to my opener now
rain lance
feel free to experiment with openers in SimC, just know that openers basically don't matter in general
shrewd temple
Dreadlord's Deceit shouldn't affect your opener at all
astral hawk
this can hit at 1m+ at opener
shrewd temple
You're playing assassination?
rain lance
The answer is none of us know, I doubt anyone has simmed out special assn openers with dreadlord's deceit, anything we tell you would be a guess/feelycraft
shrewd temple
^ I can't really be of any help unfortunately, truthfully I forgot that it stacks out of combat
astral hawk
it stacks every 2 second
astral hawk
yes it is
rain lance
Right, the point is this is probably an open question to explore, let us know if you find something interesting
astral hawk
opener and in figt
wise sequoia
I have dread lords. I've tried opening with with it and it usually just throws off my normal opener and loses dps. I usually just save it for the random times there's low health adds, which is often in EN. Single target I never cast it... Because shuriken Storm ST.
That said, maybe you could make it work.
rain lance
This is getting very into feelycraft territory
wise sequoia
But I haven't been able to.
astral hawk
it can hit 1m + you must use it on opening
shrewd temple
I'm pretty sure the sub APL includes information about dreadlord's though, implying that it has been iterated on
astral hawk
i use it on opener elaborate+vendetta
rain lance
and its probably not been super optimized, as I said this is a clear place for additional exploration not something we can give you an answer on now
astral hawk
whie in fight i dont wait for 30 stacks, using when 1sec<vendetta on enemy
manic pulsar
who summoned me ?
rain lance
someone asking about relic simming
pale parrot
is mastery and agonizing posion is the shit now, eh?
fleet yarrow
Er.. is the shit, or is shit?
fleet yarrow
I haven't tried it yet because I just dinged 110 yesterday, but when I get enough Mastery I am definitely going that route.
I think it's fantastic at end game.
pale parrot
i got 58% mastery
fleet yarrow
like.. after you get your stats and what you need. Anything before that might as well be a mess.
Yeah you'll probs need more Mastery. I'd suggest 65-70% with some Agility (ilvl) to back it up.
fleet yarrow
Well at that point go ahead and try it.
I have 80% mastery rigt now.. just not the agility ;_;
fleet yarrow
hmm
try it out in mythic dungeons or a dummy. maybe sim it on askmrrobot to compare numbers between talents.
Most of the time's just playstyle that makes or break it
lunar ferry
simple question wich relics are best for sin? read some crazy theorycrafting about running 3 vendetta cdr to line it upp perfectly with vanihs everytime? atleast some rogue did that on ursoc
rain lance
That question should go in #228879234540503040 #off-topic or #228878985210101760
lunar ferry
oh okey thought that would consicdder theory crafting
rain lance
If you want to present/discuss some simulation results that is theorycrafting, asking questions that can be answered through simple simulation is not theorycrafting
or at least not what this channel is for
icy mango
Has anyone done any sims regarding old-world trinkets? There's a rogue in my raid using http://www.wowhead.com/item=32492/ashtongue-talisman-of-lethality for sin
Doesn't seem intended
vast bobcat
upper wave
That's definitely useless.
real pebble
if i sim myself w 1 piece of gear, then again w another piece, is the change in dps the only factor as to whether or not the piece is better for me?
simple bough
real pebble
kk ty
quasi valley
What's the % error mean?
manic pulsar
Depends
I like that word
Percentage of error is the accuracy with which the simulation "knows" your effective average DPS given the specific simulation context and parameters
If you sim 300,000 DPS and your error is 0.7%, you statistically have 95% chance that your real average DPS is between 297,900 and 302,100
slate plume
With assassination what's the difference between the "good" player skill rating and the "elite" rating?
There's over a 100k difference between the two.
wat? it's using FoK.
hybrid leaf
!skasch
azure sirenBOT
Skasch Sims: https://simc.skasch.com/
weak kettle
What is the IDs for mastery gem and ring enchants?
weak kettle
tyvm
acoustic lake
you can use gems=150mast or enchant=200mast instead of using enchant_id=
weak kettle
oh didnt know that thanks 😄
manic pulsar
Though using ids is more reliable (if they hotfix stat values or you make a typo for example) 😃
pseudo grove
^^
barren star
what are the soft caps for secondary stats? i read somewhere critt softcap is at 40%
hybrid leaf
one thing that really confuses me... when i sim my char via import application import from armory, my char sims 5% higher than simming my char via simulationcraft-ingame-addon string..
manic pulsar
Afaik import is not reliable for artifact. And there are no such thing as a clear soft cap just sim your character to know where you should go from your current gear
hybrid leaf
ah ok, thx
small mountain
Guys I´m pretty sure simcraft is doing something wrong regarding subtlety, it´s overvaluing something because the values are not realistic, for example siming me at 370k and im sure at 370k its only possible with shadow satyrs
in Aethis sim spreadsheet hc 370k is just not realistic unless, again, you have the boots
I realise this is not substantiated or scientific but all logs that break 330k on ST all have the boots
white trail
@small mountain https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/KZWyCjxPrmGJbHMN#fight=8&type=damage-done no boots
small mountain
yeah lorentz and above that, 330k, all have boots, I saw that one
small mountain
hes almost 880 ilvl tho, I am talking about hc gear levels
white trail
nythendra mythic is no even a good reflection of simc because there is an MC phase and rot you have to take care of
first and third logs are 868
close enough
small mountain
with the boots, they make a huge difference
white trail
that is without doubt
but it's still possible to break 330k without them as shown above
small mountain
yes with 11 ilvls difference
white trail
you are not listening it seems
small mountain
What about: hc gear level sim seems out of phase since its giving values of 370k+ without any legendary - is hard to understand
when compared to reality, assassination for example seems much more accurate
rain lance
If thats true then a useful analysis would be to try and localize where the discrepency is
acoustic lake
if anything it will be energy related if it exists. damage numbers seemed consistent with real results when i tested them
small mountain
thats is way beyond my reach, I wish I could help more
acoustic lake
I mean, if you can log a target dummy you can test simc's evaluation
its not that complex
rain lance
sub is a deceptively complex spec to play correctly, especially at higher haste some of the energy windows arevery tight
small mountain
I agree, in my oppinion its the rogue spec with higher skill cap by far, lots of little subleties to it
plush relic
@small mountain i see what you did there. wp
pale parrot
is rupture still BiS for relics? Or is envenom and the the other two agonizing poision traits better now?
old jungle
How would I write a line that delays shadowblades until bloodlust is down or there are 0 shadow dance charges left? I've been getting (minor) gains by scrubwriting a fixed time delay when i don't lose a use of it during the fight
rain lance
actions+=/shadow_blades,if=(!buff.bloodlust.up&shadow_dance.charges<1)
that may not be perfect but I think that should work
or rather should be close
not totally sure on some of the syntax there
@pseudo grove may know better
pseudo grove
!buff.bloodlust.up|cooldown.shadow_dance.charges_fractional<0.x
x being what you want
charges_fractional does "include" the cd in the charge
like if there is 30s remaning, it's 0.5
old jungle
perfect, that works amazingly using <1
pseudo grove
test with & without the trait that increases the duration btw
old jungle
Oh i've been using my own character
old jungle
I'll give it a shot. I know it's sacrilege to say here but I've been feeling overwhelmed with wastage at the start of fights with ShadowBlades/Weaponmaster/Boots/lust. Wanted to guage how holding off affected me
pseudo grove
the thing is
sometimes something worth in X context
insn't in Y context
so 😒
basically, delaying a cd
can be worth with a fight length
but garbage with another fight length
like +1% increase in the same fight length
and -5% in another fight length
but ur change might be good tho
^^
balmy bison
Is there a guide anywhere to make stacked simulations for trinket comparisons?
manic pulsar
I don't know
pseudo grove
maybe it's time to write one
flat rain
why isn't the default profile keeping true bearing or am i reading the logic wrong
acoustic lake
probably reading the logic wrong
flat rain
actions=variable,name=rtb_reroll,value=!talent.slice_and_dice.enabled&(rtb_buffs<=1&!rtb_list.any.6&((!buff.curse_of_the_dreadblades.up&!buff.adrenaline_rush.up)|!rtb_list.any.5))
actions+=/variable,name=ss_useable_noreroll,value=(combo_points<5+talent.deeper_stratagem.enabled-(buff.broadsides.up|buff.jolly_roger.up)-(talent.alacrity.enabled&buff.alacrity.stack<=4))
acoustic lake
its not the most clear piece of apl ive ever read 😛
flat rain
!rtb_list.any.5 is that refering to a specific buff - or ? dosnt look like it
acoustic lake
that must be a rare gift
flat rain
oh nice, did not know about the wiki https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/Rogues (for others curious)
pulsar fiber
does the nightstalker buff work of night elf shadowmeld? Same question for the other tier 2 talents
manic bay
Smeld allows access to stealth abilities without stealth buffs
I use a smeld shadowstrike macro for it
pulsar fiber
with simbols of death?
outer rapids
I dont like the shorthand, smeld lol.
fluid nebula
If you guys had a choice between where to invest AP first, would you do duration of Shadow Blades, or Shadow Strike damage first? Which would give the biggest boost to dmg? My hunch is precision strikes (SS dmg)
are there any sims between the two?
rain lance
If anyone in here is interested I just quickly whipped up some simc syntax highlighting for sublime: https://github.com/Fierydemise/sublime-simc
ember wigeon
Nice
primal sundial
so hey guys im new here and i was wondering
whats everyone thinking about the new poison build
stuck sapphire
you can see sims of the build in the faq
oblique lake
What is subline?
pseudo grove
you can use Atom aswell if u prefer 😄
rain lance
Well I don't have syntax highlighting for that
supple light
yo guys, i got the terrornexus trinket, as sub does it do increased dmg?
because we got a trait that increases shadow dmg
rain lance
Typically no but those can be highly inconsistent, easy enough to check
pseudo grove
there are some script to translate from ST to Atom
pliant nexus
As a poison build assassination rogue is it viable to dump CP into 3+ envenoms to try to keep up elaborate planning/surge of toxins/envenom as much as possible?
fluid nebula
does EP pandemic?
pliant nexus
No
grim forge
kind of a dumb question maybe; is there a guide on how to use warcraft logs? I've never actually like, uploaded stuff to it before
not how to read the data, i should note, but specifically how to start getting and uploading parses
rain lance
That isn't really appropriate for this channel but WCL has a great guide: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/help/start/
grim forge
ah, thanks. wasn't sure where to ask
crystal summit
Hello, how well will Subtlety perform in next teir?
rain lance
That question is more appropriate for #off-topic or #228878985210101760 also I doubt we have any idea
dreamy monolith
I actually like my decision to take Shadow Nova early, it really shines on AoE and helps in heroics and mythic+
On topic, do we know how Shadow Techniques works? All the information I've read just says "approximately every four auto attacks you generate a combo point", is that accurate enough for calculations?
small mountain
@pseudo grove shadow blades and nova is siming lower than SS damage for me
dreamy monolith
It probably will sim lower single target
But it'll crush it on AoE while still doing something in ST
light heron
Hi i have a questen about the sub rotation. If u start SHD and the 2 times SS leads to 4/6 CPs. Is it better to finish or do u one more SS to get to 6 cps ? I just checked simcraft logs. It looks like the sim is going for the 6cps.
craggy island
How can you edit Simcraft's buffs to add/remove stuff like flasks/potions?
small mountain
aethys do you mean just the golden, or golden + cd redux on SB
pale parrot
whats the best way to aoe as assasination? Just rupture a few things and spame fan?
spam even
jovial mortar
depends on how long they live
if they live > 20 secs i rupture 2 targets and spamm venom
pseudo grove
shadowstrike and 1/3 shadow blades < 3/3 shadow blade and shadow nova
onyx acorn
guys, in the new simulations for 865 gear, the fact that AssassinationP has 870 weapon while Exsg has 894 affect the logs in any way?
outer rapids
I think Making surge of toxins a buff instead of debuff would be a good buff to Assn aoe.
finite stream
Is a 835 with socket Fan for 40k gold is worth it or i should wait to loot something else ? (i'm assa)
acoustic lake
@dreamy monolith Noone answered your earlier question but shadow techniques has a uniform chance to proc on the 3rd, 4th or 5th auto attack since your last proc. If it doesn't proc on the 3rd or 4th, if will proc on the 5th. The proc rates are set to make a uniform distribution last I heard so you should be equally likely to have it proc on a 3rd auto attack as a 5th auto attack for any individual proc.
blissful fractal
does outlaw have breakpoints for secondary stats?
jolly grotto
@finite stream The Fans on my server are going for 700k...
jolly grotto
I have 53k haha.
modern stream
Why do skasch´s trinket sims not include higher ilevel six-feathered fans, it'd be very useful
severe knoll
Is there some file similar for assa rogue up?
manic pulsar
Mostly because it is really rare
A much rarer trinket 860+ than any EN one
So I don't want people to look at it no matter what, while I believe people who already got one will be able to sim it against new drops
@Patxiou#3904 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pW5mWY9nkfWoRCOHfoXqeeGb8s-jMoSVy-g8uveUv4c/edit?usp=drive_web
That's the closest I would have
pseudo grove
@onyx acorn yes, didn't know it was released to simc website, I'll take a look at Subtlety profiles (since rules changed aswell), I asked some others persons to look at other spec, if no one do it I'll do it
anyway, do not trust 100% those profiles
it's just to give rough idea
@grizzled bone #228879234540503040
@trim marsh #228879234540503040
blissful fractal
@manic pulsar I have an 835 fan w/ a socket as outlaw and it consistently sims much higher than anything below 835 on my character. Is it actually that strong or is it because of my vers? (@17% unbuffed)
anything below 865*
gilded radish
hey! im currently a 860 Outlaw rogue, and i feel my dps is to low for my gear, could my 2% haste be the problem? even tho most sites tell me that haste is the worst stats, and what stats should i be stacking from now on? Heres my armory profile: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/frostmane/Vosjgulper/simple
Any help appreciated!
small mountain
@gilded radish #228879234540503040
manic pulsar
@blissful fractal Yes that does not surprise me
pseudo grove
@gilded radish do not trust websites about stats (if they don't give much details) and yes, the answer will be in #228879234540503040 😃
gilded radish
@pseudo grove okay thanks, i got some tips that i should sim my character: simulationcraft.org
ill Guess ill try that and find my highest weighed stats
stuck sapphire
you can use the simcraft addon to export your gear
severe knoll
Yes thank's i follow these instructions this is good
potent scaffold
can anyone help me with choosing relics. Ive been using simulator and pawn to optimize gear but i dont see how to gauge relic impact/
for example i have one for combat potency - but just got the main gauche one. i have way to much mastery atm so is main gauge dmg better then extra nrg?
manic pulsar
Sim with both and keep the best highest DPS
zealous python
forgot to comment out my trinkets im 2 gud at this
dreamy monolith
What's the auto attack white damage dual wield penalty on bosses?
how much crit/vers/mastery/haste is required for 1%?
rain lance
19%, 400 versm 350 mast, 325 haste, 350 crit
potent scaffold
say do you have to togle anything speacial in simulator to take into account active trinkets. like http://www.wowhead.com/item=133642/horn-of-valor&bonus=1826 Horn of valour
manic pulsar
No, the /simc string should handle that automatically
potent scaffold
sweet, im still trying to figure out optimal rotation and stuffs.
mossy comet
@nimble viper #228879234540503040
its pinned there for you, as an image that is fairly simple
violet marsh
Is Kingsbane just a shit CD, or am I missing something to it? Wowhead is saying use it after a 5-6cp envenom.
Simcraft is saying it should be 3-4% of damage, and on my past M:Ursoc kill, it was 2.13% of my damage
cerulean scarab
I think the icy veins and wowhead rotation for kingsbane feels weird
there's no suggestion of envenoms prior to popping KB
violet marsh
Think I should keep it macro'd to Vendetta or macro it to Mut?
untold ledge
upper wave
Isn't theory crafting meant for math discussion? Why has this place become #228879234540503040 lol
austere bramble
well its supposed to be
violet marsh
simple questions has the IQ of a 5 year old, lol
bold fulcrum
any reason why simc is telling me WM is 20k more dps than MoS, when it's only at 1.6% damage simmed, wouldn't MoS be providing more damage than that? feels like something isn't right
small mountain
Mike most of the damage from WM doesnt show on logs, thats only the damage from dot ticks
bold fulcrum
Ah, so the damage from evisc/goremaws shows up AS the damage from the spell, not a WM hit
small mountain
imagine a 1milion evis, WM copies that sometimes, thats why its strong
bold fulcrum
alright.
versed thicket
it also doubles your CP gain
on builders
also any time aoe is involved weaponmaster takes way off, because each hit of shuriken storm has a chance
white trail
should we view 10% haste as soft cap since it allows 4xSSt + Evis in Dance window in any situation( worst case - no energetic stabbing and 5 CP evis so no chance for double RS )? Talking about Subtr/DS setup
pulsar quail
So WM is better than MoS single target too?
broken grove
Could anyone explain why Aganoizing poison is now a better talent over esanquinate for assassin?
lunar ferry
any1 here who can help me sim my character with 3 different relics? im not sure how i do that
broken grove
Agonizing poison vs esanguinate should be theorycrafting shouldn't it be?
upper wave
Theory crafting is math related discussion
crisp holly
On a more theorycrafting related note, are we certain that the Zoldyck Family training Shackles effect agonizing poison? Simc is treating them as such but my real world testing is leaning towards they don't.
faint torrent
Can i ask a stupid question? 😦
Its theorycrafting related
Or should i ask in simple-questions
rain lance
Simple TC related questions are fine, the problem is people call all their gearing and talent questions TC questions when they really aren't
dreamy monolith
@rain lance , are you sure about the 350 mastery per 1%?
I can't find a conflicting reference elsewhere, but the others calculate out to their paper doll values
dreamy monolith
That wouldn't surprise me at all
my rough calculations put it at 126.8 Mastery per point for Sub, but that's just a guess working backwards.
shrewd temple
mastery % scaling must be spec dependent
icy mango
how do you assign custom stats to a piece of gear (500 mastery, 200 crit to a helm for example) instead of it's actual stats?
Nvm I figured it out, though I'm not getting the same results when I import a piece from wowhead and manually enter the stats of that item in simc. Possible human error though
stuck sapphire
mastery scaling is spec dependent, sub for example scales so well becouse the finisher scales off mastery while blizzard put the majority of the damage of the kit into mastery. outlaw's mastery scaling is for example good but not as great becouse it kind of becomes less relevant becouse it increses the %chance that you hit with your 2ndhand what becomes less important if you reach or are higher then a certain amount. alone this 2 show off that sub for example scale infinitly good with mastery while outlaw doesent
*majority of the damage of the kit into the finisher
unique forge
why is noone talking about sin mastery lo
acoustic lake
What piece of gear were you trying @icy mango
untold laurel
yes mastery scales differently for each spec
sin needs least amount of mastery for 1%
hallow juniper
is it even worth going mastery/AP if you don't have surge of toxins yet?
manic pulsar
Dunno
plush relic
Hi guys yesterday I started a thread on the en eu rogue forum for some comparisson points of st sub dps. I got some, but anyway there was a guy whos dps were pretty bad and asked for advice, so I did a write up of my rotation. Apparently it improved his dps from ~200k to ~250k. Anyway I am looking for some feedback, about how good my rotation actually is. I am considering writing up an actual sub rotation guide xD. Here is the link: http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613781408#detail
fresh veldt
is shadowblade overvalued in simcraft? when I see the logs, the offhand does about half the damage of the mainhand. While in simcraft, they do the same amount.
acoustic lake
That does seem to be an error in simc
@pseudo grove might be able to look into that
vast seal
When running the nightstalker talent, is it possible to vanish Kingsbane? If so, will the nightstalker talent only add 50% to the damage of kingsbane for the first tick?
brazen jay
Looks like it only applies the extra damage to the initial hit
vast seal
Do you think that with more mastery, its going to be better to vanish kingsbane isntead of rupture?
manic pulsar
It is theoretically possible, but the amount of mastery needed will most certainly far exceed available amount throughout the extension
warped monolith
So do we know if sin leg bracers affect agonizing poison ? I think sim assume they do. I tried looking at logs but I'm not good enough to read into them about that... ?
white trail
when you go to wowhead artifact calculator there is a "Link" button at the top right corner. There is a link for simcraft as well. But it's not really the place for that kind of questions
twin moth
Hi guys.. Something isn't working for me with the numbers of some attacks, so I thought of asking here before I post on Wow..
I'm playing sub, and my evi is said to do 303k..
With SD it's doing 320k on a dummy (unless it's critical)
Now, DfA is supposed to do 1.5 times that damage on the evi, and it's constantly doing 420k
(With SD active)
Am I missing something?
(All with 5 combo points)
spiral quarry
Does mastery work on Dfa? That might be the difference.
untold fjord
when i sim my char with ap it gives me this statweights Agility=6.79, Ap=6.54, CritRating=5.05, HasteRating=3.38, MasteryRating=3.89, Versatility=4.51, Dps=4.12 i'm realy confused since all guides i see favor mastery am i doing something wrong or is this correct i only have 77% mastery atm
dim pendant
@untold fjord crit and versatility are for the bleed build, could it be that you have exsanguinate active?
ornate storm
🤔 Stats scale with spec?
twin moth
Can anyone confirm/double check what I've wrote?
Is there a way to keep track of this in a more orderly fashion?
ornate storm
Mastery does scale with dfa with sub as it acts like a finisher. However it is not 1.5x the damage, it's a 50% stronger eviscerate on the way down.
acoustic lake
Testing on a dummy eviscerates are hitting 311k non crit for me and dfa is hitting 460k~, seems roughly correct to me without dance
Are you using master of sub
twin moth
Yeah, this means the last evi should cause 1.5 times the damage, no?
Yes..
Hmm.. your numbers seem right.
But for me it keeps doing 420k..
acoustic lake
Log it
so I can see
use vigor and do all 5 cp finishers
and take off your trinkets
and if you really want to narrow it down, click off finality after each finisher
twin moth
Good tips! I will try that later.
I need to figure out how to log..
I can save the wow log?
acoustic lake
theres a guide on warcraftlogs
its fairly straightforward, you just need to download the uploader
twin moth
Hmm.. now the lowest dfa evi was 408, whereas the lowest evi was 310..
Cool, I will do that this evening
And watch for the finality buff as well\
twin moth
Now I need to figure out how to read this log :p
So the first evi after dfa is the dfa's evi?
And stars mean crit?
Seems like the evi's after dfa (the ones without the stars) are the same as usual evis
acoustic lake
the first evis after the death from above is the empowered evis
twin moth
00:01:09.077 Kiwifruit Eviscerate Training Dummy 1 225944
00:01:19.478 Kiwifruit Death from Above Training Dummy 1 224719
So this one is empowered?
twin moth
Ho.. the time flows downward :p
pseudo grove
y
twin moth
Ok.. indeed seems like 1.5
Nice thing, those logs 😛
Can it also show if an action had buffs on it?
In the event log?
acoustic lake
Mhm
A specific instance of damage won't show what buffs are on it but there are ways and means of seeing buffs
Personally I prefer to just show timestamps where a buff was applied and when it was removed and just looking at the relevant places in between. Its possible to show only the events where a specific buff was active if you wanted to
twin moth
Nice
twin moth
Still need to figure out what's happening with my 420k..
The stars on evi mean something?
I'm getting "This is a private personal log belonging to another user. You cannot view it."
acoustic lake
public now sorry
that was just to illustrate how you can monitor eviscerates during a buff. just used shadow dance as an example
Theres probably more elegant ways of doing this but this is a simple version for beginners to warcraftlogs.
burnt jacinth
Pretty new to SimC, trying to run myself
I encountered this upon hitting simulate:
SimulationCraft encountered an error!
Simulation setup error:
Unable to open output file 'C:/Program Files/Simulation Craft/simc-703-03-win64\simc_report.txt'
Has anybody seen this? I didn't have any luck with google
pseudo grove
I assume it's due to the slash
Collision changed something recently
try to disable the auto save report
rain lance
New policy for this channel: All questions that can be answered using existing TC tools will be deleted, not answered. Answers to questions inappropriate for this channel will be deleted.
<@&224906552333697025> <@&226424944148480000>
If you have any questions about what is or isn't appropriate for this channel feel free to reach out to me or one of the TCers and we can help
burnt jacinth
Hoping someone might have seen the error I encountered above 😦
acoustic lake
Did you try deleting the file its pointing to
your simc is out of date as well, so I would just download and install the latest version and that would probably fix the issue
burnt jacinth
What is the latest version? I want to ensure I get the correct one
acoustic lake
one of the top 4, download either the 7z and unzip it or the installer. win32 or win64 depending on your system
chrome sun
Noted. Seems like good policy.
burnt jacinth
installed that version, same issue
when I follow the file path, that file isn't there
I figured it out, because of where it was located
my computer wasn't allowing it to edit/create files
ran as admin, worked perfectly
acoustic lake
easy peasy glad you sorted that, ill remember that if anyone else has that issue
chrome sun
👍
static zenith
@manic pulsar am i seeing correctly that your updated sims show bloodthirsty instinct as even better now than before, even though it allegedly got nerfed on simcraft?
manic pulsar
I don't know, my sims are updated automatically
static zenith
it says it got updated yesterday, now chaos talisman and instinct are both 3k ahead of all other trinkets
manic pulsar
There was probably a problem with the update of simc
I will update it manually for now and look into the problem later 😃 Thanks for reporting!
@static zenith which spec? Which tier?
static zenith
@manic pulsar sorry for the late response, it was t19h for outlaw
thanks for the rerun!
brittle inlet
Hey guys, do you know if simulating with spawn of the serpentix increases the statweight for haste?
maybe the spwans get more damage fro mhaste?
chrome sun
@brittle inlet - the "if" can be directly answered by using the tools available - see the pinned policy. the "why" is perhaps more nuanced
the trinket proc rate is RPPM
which is a function of your haste
as far as I know, the serpent casts 8 magma bolts each time
unaffected by haste, if the comments on here are correct:
This appears to be a 1.5 second cast spell, but with a delay between casts such that it will usually cast 8 times, but once in a while it will cast 9 times per proc. For now we will estimate it using 8, which seems more common.
So if you've got data that suggests this is incorrect, and that the spawn's casts are affected by haste (you could try this by taking all your gear off and watching the number of casts it gets off; etc)
then please let us know
brittle inlet
@chrome sun Thanks I'll have a look when i got time 😃
quick flicker
if mr robot tells u something and simcraft another what do you follow
pseudo grove
it depends
quick flicker
on what aethys?
in my case, its trinket
on one side the trinket that spawn snakes
pseudo grove
trinket have issues on both AMR & SimC
pseudo grove
there is not
at least
it won't be accurate for you ilvl
anyway, trinkets are still investigated for both simulators
we have issues and blizzard doesn't help much :/
plush relic
I have a hunch that memento might be undervalued, by how often the proc goes off and the fact that it can stack multiple buffs at once
ember wigeon
I'm pretty sure the proc rate of certain trinkets have been adjusted serverside over the previous weeks
pseudo grove
that is right @ember wigeon
for example, appendages has been buffed from 0.7 to 1+
between 1 and 1.1
craggy ivy
Is it a DPS increase to hold off on using AR during Hero/BloodLust?
Seems like a lot of wasted energy
Is there a way to alter the APL to test that?
rain lance
add a &!buff.bloodlust.up condition to AR
forest mural
Why are simc and shadowcraft reporting such massively different results?
slate laurel
different apls prob
one might be updated, other is not
or in general the numbers are different between the 2 for base values
forest mural
Ok I'll be more specific, when I sim my character in SIMC bleed is significantly higher dps, by about 20k
shadowcraft however says that poison build is 25k+ dps higher
thats a delta of about 40k dps
for the same character
rain lance
Shadowcraft numbers will be somewhat different, the sub model doesn't have cp waste which results in ~5-10% higher ability usage, the assn model may have some issues, the outlaw model has lots of issues
also to clarify here, ShC doesn't have an APL like SimC, it doesn't do any simulation
forest mural
so basically shadowcraft is worthless, lol
rain lance
It is still under development because its literally just one person working on the dps models
forest mural
Looks like it will be a very useful tool in the future when its done at least.
pseudo grove
@craggy ivy no because of GCD reduction provided by AR
old jungle
Is the line for shadow blades being active buff.shadow_blades.up?
manic pulsar
Exactly
rain lance
Can someone online test if shadowblades has the OH damage modifier applied, doesn't look like SimC is applying it
crisp basin
rain lance
alright, I'll put in an issue with them, trying to cross validate the ShC sub model
fathom halo
Are the simc AP/MP models taking account the increasing value of mastery as you get more of it, I.e - the fact it seems to scale hard?
Atm we are under the impression that subs scalping will give big gains in NH, which affects loot spec. But if mastery is scaling harder than sim suggest, the spec will perform better than sims suggest also
pseudo grove
ty for opening the issue @rain lance
it helps to trackdown issue, sometime I note somewhere then lost it then got it 4 days later 😄
that's the best practice
pseudo grove
I don't get your issue with the APL.
worldly crest
I do use standart apl provided by simc,was wondering if you were using different list?
chrome sun
@rain lance - can you verify that simc isn't applying an OH damage modifer?
it appears to be implemented, unless i'm reading this wrong
{
shadow_blade_t( const std::string& name_str, rogue_t* p, const spell_data_t* s, weapon_t* w ) :
rogue_attack_t( name_str, p, s )
{
school = SCHOOL_SHADOW;
special = false;
repeating = true;
background = true;
may_glance = false;
base_execute_time = w -> swing_time;
}
void init() override
{
rogue_attack_t::init();
affected_by.weaponmaster = true;
}
};
struct shadow_blades_t : public rogue_attack_t
{
shadow_blades_t( rogue_t* p, const std::string& options_str ) :
rogue_attack_t( "shadow_blades", p, p -> find_specialization_spell( "Shadow Blades" ), options_str )
{
harmful = may_miss = may_crit = false;
if ( ! p -> shadow_blade_main_hand )
{
p -> shadow_blade_main_hand = new shadow_blade_t( "shadow_blade_mh",
p,data().effectN( 1 ).trigger(), &( p -> main_hand_weapon ) );
add_child( p -> shadow_blade_main_hand );
}
if ( ! p -> shadow_blade_off_hand && p -> off_hand_weapon.type != WEAPON_NONE )
{
p -> shadow_blade_off_hand = new shadow_blade_t( "shadow_blade_offhand",
p, p -> find_spell( data().effectN( 1 ).misc_value1() ), &( p -> off_hand_weapon ) );
add_child( p -> shadow_blade_off_hand );
}
}
void execute() override
{
rogue_attack_t::execute();
p() -> buffs.shadow_blades -> trigger();
}
};
navv said he fixed it earlier
rain lance
I was just noticing same damage for MH and OH in the cross validation log I had
chrome sun
cool, no worries.
guess i should have checked git blame >.<
the literal most recent commit fixes it, i think
rain lance
hahaha
chrome sun
the issue was the attack wasn't setting the weapon pointer right
rain lance
ah
pallid halo
do we know of any gear dependance for the 2+/true/shark+ar/cotd recommendation?
how stable it is in general or the size of the optimization over 2+?
real crag
Hey folks, any idea what the correlation is in simc for haste having a very high value if you already have lots of haste for an Outlaw build (patchwork)?
rain lance
I don't but that would be an interesting thing to look at
chrome sun
agreed; would be interesting
real crag
hmm might pop the code up in the ide, am at work, looks like all my other code 😃
except... not java cough
rain lance
The gradient plotter from @manic pulsar might be useful for this
but I can't find the repo atm, hopefully he'll see that ping
pseudo grove
what do you need @rain lance ?
manic pulsar
?
dense swift
I think he's talking about Aethys 4d plots
pseudo grove
there will be some updates
because we aren't the only ones anymore on this project now 😄
for my part, until progress is over 4 me I can't do much, but I have some surprises for the future and I hope it'll be ready for NH
pseudo grove
the bar on the right ?
dense swift
Yeah
pseudo grove
it need to be fixed yeah
dense swift
440, 460, 480, 500, 1000
A suggestion for coloring I'd say is. People are usually most interested of the highend. So starting the coloring at 50% to 100% and all below being blue (or maybe a slower gradient of blue), will probably make the graphs a bit clearer
Compared to now where most is red, since stats are quite similar in value
manic pulsar
Yeah I fucked up the scale
1000 is actually a round up of 520 in this example
Which is unfortunate
blissful fractal
is there a mastery and crit breakpoint for the assassination poison build?
pseudo grove
breakpoint are there when it unlocks (or cap) something
that's not the case here 😛
like you could talk about breakpoint for haste without any energy misc tools as Subtlety
because you get an extra GCD during Shadow Dance
small mountain
There is a lot of talk about master poisoner and agonizing poison being bugged/badly modelled in simcraft in general, its this accurate at all?
manic pulsar
Do you have refs?
wicked lark
uhh isn't it exactly about theorycrafting and the model? curious about it too, feelcrafty dummy tests kinda reflect the same as some guys reported in here and it would also change the value of mastery
rain lance
oh the message I was responding too was deleted
discussion about the exact mechanics of AP is entirely appropriate for this channel
brazen jay
I can dump my numbers here if any1 wants to look at them. Might be hard to read as I have a particular way of doing notes:
http://pastebin.com/GvJhwQwN
rain lance
alright let me take a look
glacial quiver
It was my message that I deleted I was just curious on what values were needed to justify AP over EP currently it feels like is very overvalued in SimC . Many of the parses I've got and looked at seem to favor the high mastery+bleed avenue. Just seems a bit off to me. I guess I should have elaborated more.
Sorry EP should be Exsang .. haven't had my coffee
rain lance
@brazen jay these numbers are with 3/3 master alch and poison knives right?
brazen jay
Yes
And the ago% calculations also have MP
That I most likely should have left out in hindsight
glacial quiver
So it seems the break point for poisons is actually surge and not a mastery set point ? Interesting
Are those 6 point envenoms ?
Nevermind I see they are 5 now ..
brazen jay
Those in my pastebin? 5 or 6. Surge caps at 5 cps
glacial quiver
So after we get surge is when we should switch to MP instead of EP ?
That's what it seems like is buffing those like crazy
pallid halo
AP tooltip values are incorrrect. The tooltips won't be fixed until 7.1. Mastey has a multiplier of 4, but it is 2 for agonizing poison specificly.
glacial quiver
So ago will be hitting harder ? Also is kingsbane affected by mastery with the same value as well ?
brazen jay
There is nothing wrong with ap tooltip?
glacial quiver
Man
pallid halo
well, its not 50%, it is a specificly tuned value, but yeah
brazen jay
I dont follow now. Ago gains 50% of the benefit of your mastery atm
pallid halo
potent poison multiplys by 4, but for agonizing poison specificly the mutliplier is 2. The two mutipliers are not coupled.
there was talk during tuning of increasing mastry's value and ap values by way of that separate multipler
brazen jay
So it just happens to be 50% right now?
pallid halo
yes
brazen jay
Now I understand
glacial quiver
So I theory they would use ago poison as a way to buff/nerf poison builds? Just so they don't ruin the entire spec by a broad nerf to mastery ?
pallid halo
just fiddly bits. to keep numbers in reasonable ranges
what are the matrix in this pastebin
brazen jay
Which one, and what are matrix
pallid halo
afaik, simc uses the correct behavior for mp/ap
brazen jay
It was giving 0 dps value to poisoned knives relic
And too much value to master alchemist
pallid halo
how did you calculate zero dps value?
snow forge
Shadowcraft is showing that not using finishers during dance is a huge dps gain? I'm at work, trying to rap my head around this logic. Anyone got an idea?
brazen jay
We started this whole digging when alaiz was asking around why his simc showed him 0 dps increase when he specced into poisoned knives
And looking at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vmVwWWnNhrbzi0S_qK6emjFquyUexbTmOEov7vkRjjg/edit#gid=0
you can see poisoned knives having 0 value and master alchemist being way too high to be possible
I myself dont know how to import custom artifact trait sets into sim so cant really see for myself
Long story short, I just started looking to figure out how master alchemist, poisoned knives and surge actually work in game and whether they match simc results
pallid halo
you tweak the traits on the artifact line
331:0
is the poisoned knives
at 0 points
brazen jay
Sweet thanks
pallid halo
or swap out the relics
i got 434752.6 with 3 and 431013.9 with 0 in the default apl
delta 3738.7
error is 1564, so its doing something
mind, i wouldn't expect a lot, since this is single target
unless sin uses fok a lot in st
brazen jay
The talent just flat out buffs ago when you have it selected
It has nothing to do with fok with ago selected
pallid halo
are you sure? tooltips lie
brazen jay
I am sure
I even tested a few nights ago as my sin wepon had 0 poisoned knives
Tooltip went up
And it all matches my pastebin math
pallid halo
it says when fok hits
brazen jay
You have ago talented?
pallid halo
i'm not ingame
brazen jay
It is totally different for agonizing poison
First part is irrelevant if you have agonizing poison talented
Yup, disabling all 3 master alchemist traits didnt move my dps in simc
glacial quiver
So @brazen jay educated guess what % should be the minimum cap for ago+ mp ? Is MP better to use than EP ?
rain lance
If we are still working out the mechanic asking about crossover points is very premature
brazen jay
And even then I can maybe answer that after a week or two of testing on my own.
glacial quiver
Oh my apologizes thought you had already had it all tested
I can do some testing tonight in a raid environment
And post it here tomorrow
I'll try both EP+ Ago and MP+ Ago
pallid halo
naked dummy tests are probabl the simplest
brazen jay
If you dont mind, I can link my last night few min beatings
rain lance
I need to finish taking a look at your results from earlier
glacial quiver
I can't use dummies because I have the symbiote 😆
rain lance
take it off?
glacial quiver
That works because values are arbitrary I guess when you are trying to look at values
And trends
pallid halo
something like poisoned knive with and without the trait since it has static damage will do the trick
rain lance
so does envenom
glacial quiver
I can try both I've got enough AP that I can get 3/3 because I'm currently 0/3
small mountain
I am pretty sure that talent only buffs FoK, as it states on the tooltip itself
the "buff to ap" is to compensate for there not being deadly poison if you took AP
pallid halo
thats my thinking as well wunju
rain lance
oh yeah chiddy if you gather data with and without poison knives that would be great
because that is otherwise really hard to do
warped stag
can make PTR copies
brazen jay
http://i.imgur.com/rI4vqkm.jpg
and
http://i.imgur.com/YGGRh4H.jpg
should be enough to prove the traits work
Almost identical mastery