tc-updates

[rain lance]

still though a WA could just track white hits mod 5

[chrome sun]

definitely

because you can scrape the combat log

i basically want it to play a small ding when it fills in a combo point (or two)

and let you know when you're likely to see one

slash guaranteed to see one

[crisp basin]

technically youre never guaranteed one

[chrome sun]

that's not what fiery's stuff looks like?

[rain lance]

because every next white swing could miss?

[chrome sun]

i mean, yeah, i guess you'd want the weak aura to say "next white swing hit will guarantee a proc"

that event could take arbitrarily long

[rain lance]

yeah, my plan is make a simple counting driver and then let people do what they want with it

[chrome sun]

i think it's like 16% chance to miss

from behind

right?

so you've got some geometry series

converges to

1.19 swings per hit?

1 / (1 - 0.16)

[rain lance]

yeah that looks right

[chrome sun]

*geometric, ugh can't type

[acoustic lake]

Problem with tracking ST is how do you track the procs that occur when you're full combo points with your weakaura so you can reset your swing count. Last I remember there was no combat event for it

[chrome sun]

there is; the shitty weakaura i wrote still pings if you are at full CP

you still get the spell_energize event

[acoustic lake]

must have changed since beta then

[plush relic]

is there currently an optimal way to use sprint with the treads?

ive been using it on cd right before my next run through

[icy mango]

@chrome sun do you have a link to it?

[chrome sun]

link to what?

just a test, i wrote a shitty weak aura that makes a noise when shadow techniques procs

dCJ(caGAarVeaSlQuVgazMukMlOy2cUjGWTbzNsP9I2nH9tj6NasdJsLFlQHcegmO0WfXbbiDmq1XbsTqQOLsPQftP0YLQhcq5PkpwspxLjcq1uPyYsmDOlcuxLQQlt66eDyH2mvLTlfFKsyzusnnauFhq1FfPtRQrtLmEaItsj5wakxda68uHNbeTwGKptvMWPHdIRWvOHlwXVrn93Zt7arUOSfyWTJd7VNN2PHRi7r8Zco7CdNROh6x8ixsi6q7CxIgcTriLBUILmWTewJwDjEql1JtEA6LL9Q2gHuAlxvEygk11xuo8H0c3jTvBuboPpFpGWLcUfS9wyfOaZjfAJkqo8H0cN2OcKdWYq2grlH1MShh6ir50gvGCYttVeneAJqkDYPnQapUbcW2ytk4wW2BHvGcmGZjpn9YYEv9lEKo5QYdZqPOJeLtBubYjpnTOh6x8iDYDzzVQ(fpYLeIo0orUqowOHdJbvG0Wbjd4tdrICxIwPH7EHxqzlijYjpn9s0kDYvEF((QmGoOHdsgWNgIe565GsdhKmGpnejYL0KGXGkqA4GKb8PHiroFXk(zbnCqYa(0qKixneVJgU7fEbLZEGAHFWe5KNMwdX7OtUESQ0Wbjd4tdrIe56Q3Nfghjk3xZcUVWnxXsg4wcRrRUepOL6XfR4NfhnChg7inCxwkkCwjqT7lwvya0sbOIdgq0JiWaPB7GzzPOCWaaXQRxaqUZEECLC6LLIcDsKiNqcz6VNN2p2cNR8hqkfv8BuUyiqK74S2T1UH7ga5AylCa2A4ejb

[upper wave]

Thanks for the WA, will test when i get home

[icy mango]

@chrome sun Yeah that's what I was asking for, sorry for not being clearer ^^

[manic bramble]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Vw2J-dIBAhXiJXW2Da4mLe0r1e9cVvEBXdpC7NRNu7A/htmlview?sle=true

I'm pretty sure this was updated

It was higher before

as well

just not by much

[untold laurel]

Why does Master Assassin have a value of 0.00

Wouldn't multiple MA relics be really good with From the Shadows and in general for the burst energy etc

[acoustic lake]

this just in: stat weights are personal based on your gear

[untold laurel]

@acoustic lake Is that a response to my question?

[acoustic lake]

no

the guy above you, but someone deleted his useless question

[crisp basin]

hm looks like all combo point generators now have energize events even when used at full CPs

mustve been fixed since beta, definitely wasnt the case back then

[stuck sapphire]

there is no static stat priority, like you mentioned it is highly depending on your gear, so if you want to have them use simcraft

[torn pond]

did some of you drop Leg Cloak ? If yes how is it performing especially for Sub ?

[stuck sapphire]

Aethys did sims on legendarys, its in the faq

[chrome sun]

fun fact, that's the legendary that aethys has ;P

[stuck sapphire]

rng only gave me neck so far ::(

[solid helm]

does casting nightblade while master of sub 10% buff is up do more dmg or no?

[fathom bramble]

yes

until it fades

[dull vapor]

Until the Buff fade or the dot ?

[fathom bramble]

the buff

[dull vapor]

I miss bc for that :p

[solid helm]

is there any reason to try and cast nightblade during the buff?

or would it be stronger even if already applied on the target

[elfin remnant]

how i can simc trinket... like 3-4 trinkets what i have?

[icy mango]

http://www.sacredduty.net/2014/09/09/simulationcraft-automation-tutorial-part-i/

[shrewd pasture]

do you still need to manually add artifacts to simc or is that fixt?

[brazen tartan]

fixed

[verbal valley]

Is there a benefit to using Potion of Old War outside Outlaw CD's?

[cerulean plaza]

So I just installed SimulationCraft and ran my numbers. Does the current version reflect the recent spec changes?

[icy mango]

703-03 has the most recent hotfixes

[gilded stag]

Anyone have any idea of the optimal usage of the dreadlord's deceit for sub in single target/ aoe, like what amount of stacks you should use it at and so?

[upbeat bear]

from what i gather from simc, you (and i) use shuriken only during shadow dance and at or above 29 stacks

or during stealth rather

for st

[cobalt torrent]

is the simc model for outlaw broken ? why does hast have such a high value.

[real crag]

Mine's always valued haste pretty well

[acoustic lake]

probably because you have low haste on your gear

simc probably values haste higher than you should in a realistic scenario because its a simulation that doesn't suffer from lag. In reality too much haste will have you capping energy in scenarios simc wouldn't

[icy mango]

I thought there was an option to set your lag on simc

[acoustic lake]

there is, but its not as simple as that in reality

[snow terrace]

The point where versatility passed haste for me was at 9%

[icy mango]

Why not @acoustic lake? It seems like it'd just add a simple delay to when the abilities are pressed based upon your latency?

[acoustic lake]

it doesn't work like that in game either, there is some innate queuing of abilities even without the lag tolerance turned on iirc

Even so, think about it like this. in game, with just over 10% haste you should be able to do 2x ss 1x eviscerate 2x ss without any energetic stabbing procs

But you can't

simc can

I haven't really played around with the simc lag setting before to know if changing that would then prevent it from doing that combo

[brisk saddle]

are the updated APLs live with the simc now?

[lethal oasis]

Anyone in here tonight?

[acoustic lake]

always people around

[strong iris]

any reason why I would sim higher with the fan of knives cape, than with the vendetta boots?

that makes zero sense

[brisk saddle]

What does remains<tick_time mean with the nightblade condition?

[acoustic lake]

tick_time is time between ticks of nightblade

so without seeing the rest of that line I would assume its telling the sim to refresh nightblade when there is less than 2 seconds remaining

[brisk saddle]

ticks are dynamical right? shorter ticks with haste, right?

well, pauses between ticks rather

[acoustic lake]

only for casters far as I know

[brisk saddle]

hm interesting.

while you're here, i took a look at the condition exanguinated. but i can't read c++ for shit. would you be so kind to explain to me how the APL evaluates it?

[acoustic lake]

what parts specifically

theres a lot of exsanguinate things in the apl

[brisk saddle]

sec, let me fetch a line

actions+=/call_action_list,name=exsang,if=dot.rupture.exsanguinated

as an example

[acoustic lake]

well thats going to call an action list if you've used exsang

[brisk saddle]

so it just tracks if we used exang?

exsanguinated <= this is what I'm interested in

[acoustic lake]

if you scroll down you'll see an action list called exsang

so when you've got exsang up

it will use that action list

[brisk saddle]

yea, but there is no exsang "buff" right? it just accelerates the up dots

[acoustic lake]

well its just tracking that rupture is exsanguinated

it can do that

just in a mythic+ hard to give good answers

[brisk saddle]

I think we're misunderstaning each other xD
I wanna know how the function works, as in how does the code behind the exsanguinated work

[acoustic lake]

oh well

i can look

after this mythic+, almost done

[acoustic lake]

@brisk saddle Looks like you need more than a decent understanding of simc to really get how this works in the background

bit beyond what I know personally

Is there a reason you want to know how this works beyond knowing that it works?

[chrome sun]

grep in the code base of engine/class_modules/s_rogue.cpp for exsanguinated and you'll see the implementation

*sc_rogue.cpp

correct, there is no buff, but it's easily trackable

ends up looking like

  {
    timespan_t duration = rogue_attack_t::composite_dot_duration( s );

    if ( cast_state( s ) -> exsanguinated )
    {
      duration *= 1.0 / ( 1.0 + p() -> talent.exsanguinate -> effectN( 1 ).percent() );
    }

    return duration;
  }```

[acoustic lake]

if the original question was just to undestand how the .exsanguinated apl expression worked it seems to me the jist of it is that in simc rupture has a struct containing its state. When exsanguinate is cast, any active garrotes or ruptures have their struct changed to evaluate true for exsanguinated

[strong iris]

hey guys quick question. For some reason, I sim much lower with one legendary than another, how would I go about working out why?

[acoustic lake]

which legendaries

[strong iris]

dawn walkers are simming lower than dreadlords deceit

vendetta reduction boots

are worse than fan of knives cape

What I don't understand is that if I look on the sim, fan of knives is about 2.8% of my damage

but I would expect much more than 2.8% dps increase from having vendetta on an average 50 second cooldown

[acoustic lake]

how often does it cast vendetta in the sim with the boots

[strong iris]

55 seconds

and 89 seconds without them

[acoustic lake]

pm me the sims you did and I will check

[plush relic]

bump

[echo wagon]

i assume its an issue of not having vendetta reduc relics, since then the cloak desyncs vendetta from every 2nd exsang/kingsbane

try with agop maybe

[strong iris]

wouldn't think so

I have one of those relics

means vendetta pretty much sincs up with my first 4 exsgs

[echo wagon]

how can it sync when you say it casts it every 55 seconds

[brisk saddle]

I just wamted to understand how it evaluates that a bleed was exsanguinated

but if it just flips a flag then thats fine 😃

[strong iris]

well thats on average

[acoustic lake]

Check pins before you ask questions please

[hushed heart]

what makes memento so strong for assa?

[outer rapids]

Lol looks like outlaw's relics got broke again on the Simc front page rankings

[fallen agate]

Dont get it, when i sim Outlaw i am around 355k and as sub 260k :S Cant be that much diff just becouse i got higher ilvl relics as outlaw`

?*

[vast bobcat]

Stat priority is different, is probably your gear

[hushed heart]

Can anyone explain why memento is so high ranked for Assa? Haste and Mastery are really bad to have and thats 2/3 of the trinket basically...?

[torn flume]

did anyone ever find out if sub t18 2p is a dps gain

[untold laurel]

mastery is not bad for assassination

at all

its really good

[digital sluice]

Outlaw damage in simcraft is final atp?

It's was few days ago 10k higher and now back down

[tight solar]

If you were to have the Legendary boots (reduces vendetta cd by 1 second for every 50 energy you spend), would it be better to have the vendetta relics vs the rupture ones?

[rain lance]

I'm not sure anyone has explored that, worth simming to see

[outer rapids]

I doubt more than one or two would be worth it because the CD of vendetta would be lower than that of the CD for exsang and kingsbane.

[karmic drift]

how do i change my food buffs in simcraft?
just add this? actions+=/food,type=seafood_magnifique_feast
is that correct?

[rain lance]

look for the actions.precombat+=/food line

food is defined as a precombat action not an incombat action

[karmic drift]

dont have that using simc mod

so i can just add that?

[rain lance]

actions.precombat+=/food,name=the_hungry_magister

put that line in

I think that should work

[karmic drift]

under artifact line?

[rain lance]

and replace the food type with whatever you want

yeah

I think that will force override the food but I'm not sure

[karmic drift]

ill let you know

nah didnt work adding actions.precombat+=/food,name=drogbar-style_salmon

still has me using vers food

[rain lance]

try this then, load up the default profile and change the food line in there

[outer rapids]

@chrome sun Relics look like they broke again.

armory import, then sim works. But if you try and load the default profile or use the simc addon. It breaks.

[summer prism]

guys why simcraft shows me haste is the best stat

[chrome sun]

thanks Kaz, I'll cherry pick the commit again when I get home from this training ride

[elfin remnant]

btw... how i can change food for simc?

food=,id={id} ?

[fathom bramble]

look at the pre actions and food

[untold laurel]

anyone looked into angerboda/nature's call weights yet?

seems like a good trinket (combo) for sin mainly

[pulsar escarp]

what's the bonus id in simcraft for a six feather fan 835 ?

[icy mango]

trinket2=,id=141585,bonus_id=1497

disregard the trinket2 part

[pulsar escarp]

ty

[tight solar]

Based of my current sims, it's a dps increase to have 2 vendetta relics with the legendary boots

the 3rd is only a couple hundred dps extra

For those wondering...

[torn flume]

whats the proc chance on energetic stabbings

[acoustic lake]

25%

[onyx kindle]

Weaponmaster procs on Goremaw's bite are currently hiting for around 800k-1.2m and critting for 1.6-2m. Is this a knwn bug, artifact ability and is it modeled at all in dps sims?

[rain lance]

@onyx kindle why would that be a bug?

[summer umbra]

did my message get deleted?

wat

[onyx kindle]

It's just something that it seems nobody knows or cares about yet provides huge burst when it happens. I used simcraft this morning to model weaponmaster with my gear and the sim reported not using Goremaw's bite at all in the damage and spell breakdown.

[rain lance]

Weaponmaster mechanics have not been well mapped out, in many cases simc uses a guess on the mechanics

can you link a log of this happening

[open hawk]

So I play Sin atm.. using Hemo/Exsan.. however looking at logs the top sin rogues seem to be running Elaborate/Agonizing??? am i missing something do you swap at a certain mastery or wha? i want my dps to be as much as possible... was also thinking because i was looking on ursoc.. is that maybe why??

[rain lance]

That question is better suited for #228879234540503040 #off-topic or #228878985210101760

[onyx kindle]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1894494-Legion-Subtlety-discussion/page211 This is the link where I first found the information and tested it for myself. I came to the same conclusion that weaponmaster procs on goremaws bite result in huge shadow damage hits. I just sim'd again and Goremaw's Bite was not cast during the sim. Not sure how to link it here though

[pseudo grove]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2kAWLqbMdCzQ9rxH#boss=1841&type=summary&source=55&pins=2%24Off%24%23244F4B%24any%24-1%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%240.0.0.Any%24true%24220901|209783|209784|209782&view=events&eventstart=3104903

if you want log of me

where it happened

(was yesterday on M Ursoc)

that's likely a bug and it is not implemented on SimC

aswell as some others guesses for weaponmaster that we need to find out

(for example, what exactly does a weaponmaster nightblade with finality ?)

is deepening shadow correctly working with weaponmaster

does the weaponmaster roll is done on both mh and oh hit of goremaw's bite

what we knows currently is, weaponmater roll is per target and not per cast

hence the talent is the best for AoE

my only guess for the weaponmastered big dmg of goremaw's bite

is they messed up the MH+OH merge

instead of 1000% it's 500%*500%

at least, something like that

@everyone if you have logs of this bug, please send it to me here or in pm, I'm trying to found out how they messed up, I think I got it but I need more samples

[indigo elm]

Your logs are private @pseudo grove 😦

btw, how do you see if weaponmaster procd' ?

nvm found it ._."

[unique carbon]

I'm trying to remove potion of Old War from my sims APL, but... where do I find the APL? ._. a tut I found directed me to the profiles tabs but those seem pre-made characters with set stats etc?

[green zinc]

https://gyazo.com/169c1eea96390a5db06a141cb38ebe94

[unique carbon]

I'm using the /simc command and don't get those lines, but when I sim it does use them

So I figured they're in the default Rogue profile?

[indigo elm]

Don't know if it helps but weaponmaster seems to proc on nightblade ticks

[green zinc]

Yeah @unique carbon when you go to simulate, all your apl things will be there. Just look for the ones with potion and deadly grace. They're in default rogue prof not /simc

[unique carbon]

So I have to simulate the /simc, then remove them again? 😮

[green zinc]

so you just use /simc to pull your gear/talents/etc, the rest of your apl for actual rotation is in the simc program under the defaulted profile.

[unique carbon]

OH

Derp

Thanks a ton

[green zinc]

No problem

[pseudo grove]

Oops @indigo elm , check my twitter I put a pic

[indigo elm]

Ty 😃

[crisp basin]

Yeah the weaponmaster procs on Dot ticks is whats labeled as "weaponmaster" damage in combat log

[stuck sapphire]

are we assuming weaponmaster to be better with the bug?

[crisp basin]

curiously im already simming higher with weaponmaster, but guess that could possibly be the influence of either the legendary cape or Tirathons trinket, or my specific traits

but even then they are both really close most of the time

[untold laurel]

are there any values out there for natures call and possibly in combination with the maw trinket?

i saw some rogues stacking them

[crisp basin]

theres shouldnt be anything special since both are more less just static secondary procs, they dont seem to be overly powerful based on SimC

their implementation in SimC is another thing, but I dont think anyone here knows the specifics

Natures call is probably slightly undervalued because it seems to be missing the Drake attack but thats like 500k dmg over an entire fight

[ember wigeon]

] Senorpwnd: Weaponmaster procs on Goremaw's bite are currently hiting for around 800k-1.2m and critting for 1.6-2m. Is this a knwn bug, artifact ability and is it modeled at all in dps sims?

it's a bug

known for like 3 or more weeks

people started noticing they would randomly one shot people in pvp

[crisp basin]

@ember wigeon Dys its been known and reported since alpha actully :/

[ember wigeon]

ah

[crisp basin]

it was really visible during a brief period where they made weaponmaster 12% chance

[high rapids]

Does anyone know if there's something wrong with the default APL for sin? I'm using default APL as sin and getting around 270-290k dps at anm 858.. meanwhile people in the general channel are reporting around 340k dps aat an 860 as the same build

[plush relic]

you may have unoptimised stat weights, suboptimal trinkets/talents, etc

[high rapids]

still though... an 80k dps difference seems like a lot

to just be stats/trinkets

I mean, simming 270k with 135%/32% mastery/crit as the poison sin build seems low

[rain lance]

If you think there is something wrong with the assn APL link some logs so we can take a look

[versed thicket]

make sure your artifact imported correctly?

[high rapids]

going to sim again to see what is up

[outer rapids]

You can PM your character if you want and I can take a loot at maybe the difference. I sim to about 330k right now.

[fallow pelican]

what are we talking about team? 😄

[pseudo grove]

#weaponmaster

[versed thicket]

Oh boy

is it happening?

[plush relic]

so is weaponmaster > MoS cause of this wierd bug?

[pseudo grove]

not only

it's better overall

does someone have others logs ?

my intial guess isn't correct if I take more sample

so I need more to try to understand what's going on 😄

[plush relic]

i send you some after todays raid if you want to

[pseudo grove]

yes pls

[plush relic]

will be my first raid as sub so dont be to harsh 😄

[pseudo grove]

lol

[rain lance]

log discussion is better placed in #off-topic or #228878985210101760

[torn flume]

@pseudo grove you want logs with weapon master?

[pseudo grove]

yes to try to breakdown the numbers

[torn flume]

I'll post some later tonight for mythic nythendra If it's not too late. Or works you rather wailing on a dummy

Why do leg boots not reduce the value of energetic stabbing relics

[fallow pelican]

are we talking about viability between WM and the Shadow damage talent for sub? t1?

[versed thicket]

WM vs MoS

[fallow pelican]

cool cool

As I'm currently putting AP into my sub so I can write a guide once I get acclimated to it, I'd love to hear the results as well

[pseudo grove]

until you'll have near 0% downtime

energetic stabbing will always be worth

since ShD despite giving dmg gives also you energy back 😄

[stuck sapphire]

btw. did anyone test if old war works with t18 2p?

[torn flume]

Figured the extra 15 energy with leg boots wouldnt matter as much as nightblade damage

Since it doesn't increase the chance

But maybe I'm overestimating how much energy boots give

[sage timber]

@pseudo grove are u still searching for WM logs?

[pseudo grove]

yes

[sage timber]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/r3vftZHanwT1Bd8N#

[sage timber]

i hope it's helpful

[torn flume]

Can you see people's artifact path on wcl

[sharp heath]

You can see which traits they have if you select a player and go to the Summary tab

Talents, traits, gear

[river lagoon]

@pseudo grove are you still looking for weaponmaster logs?

[pseudo grove]

yes @river lagoon

[river lagoon]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pTDbAZKFhdwWxjc7#fight=31

Hoping these help then

used WM for the entire raid

[hoary bay]

I need help with simulation craft if thats possible, for some reason i am getting a huge dps for outlaw and i feel like there is something wrong

[crisp basin]

Define huge

[hoary bay]

http://imgur.com/a/v2i0I

that huge

sims were done on single target as well

[crisp basin]

nothing too out of the ordinary, make sure you included correct artifacts and have up to date simc

[manic pulsar]

That does not seem too surprising

[crisp basin]

also kinda doesnt belong into #tc-updates

[dim pendant]

@pseudo grove I'll try and use weapon master for sub when we Raid wednesday night for you as well and link logs when I have them

[pseudo grove]

prob artifact import/export

btw you should use it

even without the bug it's strong

[torn flume]

which bug?

[dusty elbow]

guys, I have 2 legs higher ilvl with +115agility and +730crit and other leg less ilvl but will give 700 versa instead which is better

[dim pendant]

Conformed stronger than mos?

Sim it? @dusty elbow

[dusty elbow]

how ?

[torn flume]

aethys whats the bug?

[dim pendant]

Simc was over valuing mos apparently @torn flume

[torn flume]

was wondering if he was was refering to the goremaw bug

[dim pendant]

What's that one?

[torn flume]

apparently it's doing a lot of damage randomly

[dim pendant]

I'm going to try it out Wednesday so I'll see if I notice anything strange

[torn flume]

aethys what were you refering to being stronger even without the bug

[pseudo grove]

weaponmaster prob > mos

in ST

and besides ST it's always better

[icy mango]

How'd you come to that conclusion?

[torn flume]

didn't use only do 700k damage over the course of a fight

yours*

[tame sluice]

How would WM work with Insignia? I'f assume it would proc it again, but how about the ruling on procs proccing procs. And MoS doesn't doubledip on Insignia, right?

[unique carbon]

Is there any reason I'm not makig it to my simmed dps the majority of the time, as Outlaw? I feel I'm majorily on the lower end of the iterations even with decent buffs but can't seem to figure out whats wrong... Is it a known thing in Simc or should I head up to General to have my logs checked for user error?

Before the nerf I was getting fairly close, but now...

[slow oxide]

anyone have any links on this mastery assassination build? having trouble finding anything

[rain lance]

check stjern's guide linked in #rules-and-guides

[hushed comet]

I hope this question is appropriate for this section: For outlaw, we have a general guide for rerolling. TB, 2+ buffs, or Shark with cooldowns. However, during curse, would it be optimal to roll away something like BS/Buried Treasure that doesn't do much of anything for Curse/AR?

[tame pulsar]

Is Weaponmaster the ability that gets recorded for the talent? It seems kind of underwhelming. I knocked a dummy around for 5 minutes and it only has 2 hits, max damage being 209K.

[upper wave]

Well, it's a 6% chance to proc. I imagine in that case, every 50 shadow strikes you should see 3 procs, for example. How many times did you eviscerate/ss?

[tame pulsar]

Does nightblade proc it too?

If it does, then in total I did 67 hits/ticks

[upper wave]

Not sure if it procs it or not. People are still unsure of how it works, but if its meant to be a replacement for multistrike, it's quite possible that it can proc off nightblade ticks. I'm going to run it on our farm night, and see what logs tell me.

[acoustic lake]

the recorded weaponmaster damage is just when weaponmaster procs off a nightblade tick

when abilties weaponmaster, they just cast again in the log, so they appear under their own damage

[upper wave]

Ah

[hot radish]

Spontaneous appendages seems to sim really low, and yet when i see it used in logs its a solid 5% or so of someones damage ,doing on average like 3.8-5 mil, are sims borked for this trinket? And is it any good for sub/poison sin build due to the mastery?

[manic pulsar]

@Rife#4323 You can keep a single SiW during the burst

But every other single buff is a DPS loss

@tame sluice

00:04:45.151    Roflerie Shadowstrike Lumbering Mindgorger *288155*
00:04:45.151    Roflerie Insignia of Ravenholdt Lumbering Mindgorger 60904
00:04:45.151    Roflerie Shadowstrike Lumbering Mindgorger *280154*
00:04:45.186    Roflerie Insignia of Ravenholdt Lumbering Mindgorger 59213

Insignia does not proc on Goremaw's Bite though

[tame sluice]

Too bad with Goremaws, but gonna run wm tomorrow on hc clear. Also doesnt work with SStorm, but might be a bit op if it did. Do we have data wether its better to SS instead of sstorm on two targets with insignia and 2nd shuriken trait? Prob storm without shd, but with itthe?

*autocorrect fml <.<

[manic pulsar]

@pseudo grove knows

[pseudo grove]

add 1 target for premed, boots, insignia

so from 2 to 5

if you have everything

(not possible yet since 1 leg restriction)

only during stealthed tho

[acoustic lake]

If I did my simc right taking pistol shot off the gcd would give maybe a 14k dps increase at t19m gear. Might be a nice way of bringing up outlaw again

not sure my override was perfect though, think I made it so that it wouldn't cause a gcd when used but you couldn't cast it during a gcd

[manic bay]

What if Pistol Shot critical strikes did 100% more damage?

Would also buff the value of gunslinger slightly

[acoustic lake]

could also be nice

I'm not sure thats an easy thing to override into simc to check

but making the traits be a bit more balanced in terms of dps would be a good start

[manic bay]

oh, what about giving Oppotunity! Pistol Shot crits deal 4x damage similar to BTE?

(buffs things more)

[acoustic lake]

anything to make it a bit more useful :p

although you're sounding like the idea of outlaw being buffed is a bad idea

[manic bay]

I like Outlaw and Sub the most atm :x

Ouutlaw is just frustrating when you get unlucky and get no SS procs or good RTB rolls. bleh

[manic pulsar]

feelsbadman

[pure pelican]

how much more dps would outlaw do if there is no 1 buff roll, makes the spec 100 times more fun

[manic pulsar]

On a Cenarius down I rerolled 10 times before getting a good roll on pull 😄

[stuck sapphire]

does energetic stabbing hit chance increese or is it 25% flat on all ranks?

[acoustic lake]

flat

[fathom bramble]

25% flat

[stuck sapphire]

thanks

did anyone test t18 2p with old war yet?

[hybrid leaf]

question: if i have all three ShadowDances on cooldown and i use a finisher, do all ShadowDance Stacks profit from a Finisher?

[upper wave]

No

Only 1 stack is ever on CD

[hybrid leaf]

thx

[gilded hound]

hmm... quick question.. how do i best sim what relic is best?... is there a place where id is shown?

[small mountain]

#228879234540503040 tek

[white trail]

@pseudo grove so that addition proved to be correct?

talking about ring

[pseudo grove]

probably @white trail

XD

anyway the diff is very minor so

with both legs

[white trail]

I think at some point you would want to change some of those "and" to "or"

or just make min( premed + leg_1 +leg_2, 2 )

something like that

[pseudo grove]

maybe

depending on multiple things

including relics

[icy mango]

Energetic Stabbing has a 25% proc chance correct?

[warped monolith]

Yes

[boreal rune]

I saw a post on mmo-c a few days ago talking about Sin openings - it said that Rupture damage snapshots the EP buff if you cast Rupture while still having the buff. Does that also apply to Kingsbane? I assume it does

[manic pulsar]

Woot

Are you sure about that?

[boreal rune]

I haven't tested it myself yet, no. Still have an hour before I'm done class and can actually go play

[prisma tartan]

If it snapshotted having it, wouldn't it also snapshot not having it?

[bold fulcrum]

something wrong with latest sin api?

[manic pulsar]

If EP snapshots, then yes, most likely

I really doubt it does though

[gilded rover]

is it real that sub prio is mastery>vers>haste>crit?

Simmed today

[manic pulsar]

#228879234540503040 for this kind of question

And if you simned it, then yes, it's your current stat priority with your current gear, artifact, trinkets, relics and fight style

and talents

[azure saddle]

Not sure if this is a question for this sub-chat but, looking at the sub apl table in simcraft, I can't see any waiting to get max uptime on MoS. Am I just blind or aren't we doing that at all anymore?

[rain lance]

@bold fulcrum that question should go in #228879234540503040 #off-topic or #228878985210101760

[bold fulcrum]

cheers

[manic pulsar]

Ideally, sim whenever you gear change

@azure saddle @pseudo grove I don't know if it is a DPS gain to try and maximise MoS uptime; however, IIRC, Weaponmaster is better than MoS overall

[azure saddle]

hmmm weird, I sim around 8k dps less with weaponmaster. Thanks though

[manic pulsar]

Have you updated simc recently?

IIRC a bug with WM has been fixed a couple days ago

[azure saddle]

Oh shit. Well I'll go do that then 😛

Thank you kind sir.

[manic pulsar]

Anytime

[azure saddle]

Hmm much closer but still simming higher with MoS. That's ST though, I guess that if there;s even a couple of adds, weaponmaster with FoK pulls ahead.

[torn flume]

Does it work with shuriken storm

It would be good because your pounding out evisceratesthat can be copied

@manic pulsar how does WM work with finality

[warped monolith]

y it work with SS also to my knowlege is target based and not cast based, it copies ticks from dot and not ''full dots'' (im now siming higher with it than with MoS on ST) for finality no idea how it work but im guessing it just copies dmg

[manic pulsar]

@torn flume That's a good question, I would assume it doubles the same type of finisher but @pseudo grove would know better

[crisp basin]

it behaves like a normal evis cast would

so if you cast normal evis and get WM proc that proc consumes the finality

[torn flume]

That's pretty cool

So if you get a wm poeti

Wm proc on a finality finisher it will give you finality back

[icy mango]

I've yet to see that happen though. I've been collecting logs using wm and have only seen it proc off of nb ticks

Or ss

[crisp basin]

thats in combat log

WM proc on evis in combat log looks exactly like eviscerate

"weaponmaster" is dot ticks

[icy mango]

So it behaves as if it casted (insert ability here) a second time?

Shit you guys literally just said that my bad

[azure saddle]

Im guessing that the more mastery I get the better WM becomes vs MoS.

[dreamy monolith]

Assuming you have a 60% uptime on master of subtlety or higher, they should be about the same.

With weapon master doing ever so slightly better if it procs a combo point

[icy mango]

Why 60%?

[dreamy monolith]

Because mos is a ten percent buff

Wm is 6%

A six percent chance to double any ability should translate to a six percent overall increase, or slightly more because of combo point generation

That said, mos is improving your higher damage abilities, so it's effect is probably more pronounced than if it were a flat % permanent danage increase of the same value

Since it's guaranteed to be active on shadowstrike, which hits like a truck, but not always Backstab, which hits like a wet nerf ball

Wm has the same chance of duplicating either ability

[white trail]

If wm procs for Evis does it trigger RS as well?

[crisp basin]

nope

at least I dont remember that happening

can check the logs just to be sure

but iirc RS and Deepening SHadows were unaffected

@white trail http://i.imgur.com/KUvdVl3.png?1

the one at 1.10 is an nightblade btw, just filtered it out

[white trail]

okay

but combo points are awarded twice, right?

[crisp basin]

yeah

[white trail]

how can I disable effect of Cinidaria, the Symbiote in simc?

[dreamy monolith]

The takeaway here is that if weapon master copies the ability's you don't want it to, you get a little added bonus.

[icy mango]

Is that a Wm evisc crit at the bottom of the image, @crisp basin

Just making sure I'm reading it properly

[crisp basin]

yes, its evis cast followed by wm evis proc

[deft hollow]

Anyone know if rupture snapshots with a previously applied EP buff? I've heard different things

[dreamy monolith]

I'm not sure you can tell if the evis of the wm evis crits, but I'm not sure it matterz

[crisp basin]

Someone said earlier it does, but I havent seen any proof yet

it used to for a while on alpha, then stopped, and celestalon said its not supposed to

[dreamy monolith]

The implication is the same, that weapon master doesnt copy the ability, it casts a new version

[deft hollow]

I would imagine it only snapshots with vanish. Since rupture applies it's own EP it should treat it dynamically throughout the bleed

[crisp basin]

yes thats how its supposed to work, tho someone said the idea came from a mmoc opener thread which would explain a lot

[deft hollow]

I'll just punch a dummy tonight and check

[crisp basin]

@white trail dont think there are any direct settings for legendaries like how there are for tier sets, since even when APL ive seen check for legendaries they use equipped.item

you can try navv I guess

[icy mango]

I did some quick tests on a dummy and didn't see anything significant

[white trail]

@crisp basin I might just find perfectly matching stat item

if it's easier for simc

[marble kelp]

quick how does the wither j'im trinket

sim

seems mediocre

[rain lance]

That question should go in #228879234540503040, #off-topic, or #228878985210101760

[hexed oak]

is it possible that the default profile for assasination uses deadly grace while the profile for the sims on the frontpage of simcraft.org uses old war?

and if so...why?

because im siming at 293k with frontpage-profile and at 283k with default-profile

[plush relic]

frontpage simcraft profile? what do you mean by that

[hexed oak]

on the simcraft site...there are are simcraft results

[plush relic]

those are pretty old

[hexed oak]

i thought they are updated

4th october

[plush relic]

they are t19Preraid which is set to 840 ilevel

most people are past that

[hexed oak]

thats not my issue

[plush relic]

are you saying you compare your character sim results to the front page?

[hexed oak]

im using the profile of the homepage results with my gear at get 293k

using the default profile with my gear...i get 283k

and they are using different potions

[plush relic]

if you know they are using different potions, then i guess i dont understand your question

old war is better

so whatever you sim your char with should use that

[hexed oak]

then why does the default profile use deadly grace

[plush relic]

is your simc build updated recently

i bet the front page one is

but maybe yours is old

[worthy spire]

is goremaw + wm bugged?

or what

sometimes i c goremaw doing mills dmg

[hexed oak]

hm weird. im on 7.0.3 release 2

which is the newest version looking at the homepage

but homepage sims are on 7.0.3 release 3

[worthy spire]

Anyone else noticing the same?

with WM + goremaw interactio

[plush relic]

homepage release version

says released september 16

which 7.0.3 release 2 sounds right

if you go to nightly builds i bet you find 7.0.3

release 3

[worthy spire]

just ignore me i guess 👌

[plush relic]

i dont know enough about sub sims to know

would you rather i answer incorrectly? lol

from what i vaguely recall from conversation here it might be bugged where the value is multiplicative on goremaw on accident

[chrome sun]

@worthy spire - yes, there's a bug

frozen soviet got it in one - looks like the value is multiplicative

[worthy spire]

yup, clearly multiplicative. At least the tooltip "massive damage" makes more sense now...

Also, without that "bug", WM is trash.

[upper wave]

Even if it wasn't a bug, taking WM for a 6% chance at@'massive damage' seems trash anyways

Emphasis on 'seems'

[sage timber]

i think @pseudo grove posted something like WM prob > st and definitely for multi target, if i remember correct

[torn flume]

He said even without the bug it was probably better

[cerulean scarab]

I don't see anything pinned - are there any resources for simc tci configs?

I was wonder if there were just any sort of generic configs that could be reused with your own profile, etc

mostly because tci is pretty verbose; mostly looking for some examples

[karmic drift]

is chronoshard up there for us

[upper wave]

@sage timber fair enough. I still find it weird though. I'm taking WM into raid tonight, so I'll make my own decision on whether it matches up for me or not lol

[real crag]

Probs not the place but, has anyone followed through and switched to sub from Outlaw and are seeing an improvement? I'm seeing logs at ~860 and thinking I should be dumping into assass instead.

Actually, not the place, i'll move it to #228878985210101760

[midnight shale]

whats better in raid hemo bleed or master poison ?

[chrome sun]

take to simple questions please 😃

[midnight shale]

gotcha

[plush relic]

this may not be the best place, but what is the best way to compare gear using simc if you are comparing multiple gear pieces in different slots? try every combination of gear pieces? because each one equipped can change the stat priority for your gear set, which can affect the next piece being better or worse than your current gear

[cerulean scarab]

I'm probably not looking in the right place, but I'd like to find information about stuff like that as well.

I suppose other than reading the tci source there's probably not an exhaustive list of what you can and cannot configure and how to do it

also don't know if this is the place to be asking this stuff, though I assume so

[acoustic lake]

essentially yes, it you wanted to find the best combination you'd have to try all iterations

[stuck sapphire]

well there is no optimal way you can sim every possible compination or sim your character and change the gear peaces due to the stat prios you got and repeat that till you like the result

[acoustic lake]

actually looking at it, perhaps the automation tool is what you're looking for @plush relic

[hot cargo]

any idea on if saytr is still the best neck enchant

[plush relic]

@acoustic lake exactly what im looking for, thanks. Now my only question is there a good way to export gear in my bags including bonus modifiers to a simc profile? I've been looking up ids on wowhead and thats kinda slow

[grave copper]

For assa, 835 horn of valor (882 vers + 2574 agi for 30 seconds / 2 min CD) or 870 unstable arcanocrystal (837 crit, haste, mastery, vers)? Which of these do I keep on with bloodthirty instinct

[stuck sapphire]

just sim them 😃

[grave copper]

i honestly dont know how to use mr robot, is there anything special i need to do other than run the sim?

[stuck sapphire]

there is a guide how to sim in the faq selection, we are in the theoriecraft selection.

[icy mango]

good guide to automation: http://www.sacredduty.net/2014/09/09/simulationcraft-automation-tutorial-part-i/

[plush relic]

yeah, that guy is good

for those interested, here is how i automated all possible combinations of several gear slots

first, create a binary table of combinations for how many slots you want to replace

e.g. 5 slots = 00001, 00010, 00011, etc

there are websites that do this easily

then paste this table into excel, transpose the table

replace 0s with blanks and each line of gear with the gearslot you want to change

e.g. 1 is replaced with neck=,id=134492,bonus_id=3418/1532/3337 on the first line, head=,id=134440,bonus_id=3413/1808/1502/1813,gem_id=130217 on the second line, etc

then use excel macros to combine the table into 1 column, remove blanks, then insert blanks above your default gear profile and paste into simc

a bit complicated but beats typing in 64 (or however many slots you have) combinations of gear manually

there is probably an easier method but this worked for me

[soft marlin]

why is the bloodthirsty instinct the bis trinket for assassination?

[torpid tree]

the 60%+ uptime

[pseudo grove]

@plush relic try AutoSimC

And you can use SimulationCraft add-on to export ur item easily

[plush relic]

https://github.com/SimCMinMax/AutoSimC ?

[pseudo grove]

Yes

That's my python script

[plush relic]

gotcha

[pseudo grove]

Let me push the update

With artifact

It's Old but it works

Will bé merged at some point into CombinX

I wrotr i 2years ago

And didn't changes much since then

[plush relic]

each time i try to sim, simcraft crash even with the new build 703 04

thanks, one last question, you think its fine to sim pieces one by one as you get em, adjust stat weights, repeat, or better to sim sets like this? seems like doing this is a very small amount of optimization within the margin of error

most of the gearsets i simmed were like 100 dps within each other despite using different pieces

[pseudo grove]

I do always do gearset tbh

[distant gate]

Does Elaborate plannig snap shot rupture?

[plush relic]

Best stat percentages for outlaw

[twin moth]

Hi guys.. Just to update something weird.. I got a higher ilvl ring, and calculate weights with AMR. Even though it has a higher ilvl and worse stats for sub (critical), the contribution to the DPS on paper was lower than the older ring. However, when I checked on a raid dummy I managed outputting 20-30k more DPS with the new ring.

[acoustic lake]

I would be very surprised if a single ring was going to make such a contribution to your dps. Your tests are anecdotal, unless you're going to test a large number of iterations its hard to say that the difference between the tests are not just rng

[twin moth]

Hmm.. I tried it twice..

My rotation was similar

If not identical

Maybe the trinkets went off in a weird way..

I wonder how many tests I should perform.. What is random except the trinkets? Energy and CP?

[acoustic lake]

Simc exists for these sorts of tests 😛

[twin moth]

But then I need to trust them :p

I don't trust my own algorithms.. So trusting another's..

You know

[acoustic lake]

Well they have been looked over by a lot of people. They aren't perfect naturally and are generally better than a real player. Maybe do a 10 minute dummy test as perfectly as you can and compare your damage per ability on logs to what simc gives you for a similar length sim

Then you can check cast intervals as well, these sorts of things might give you a bit more trust in simc's results

[twin moth]

Skada isn't good enough?

What are cast intervals?

[acoustic lake]

Skada is probably fine I just find warcraftlogs a lot easier to work with

cast intervals are the average length of time between casting a certain ability

[twin moth]

Hmm.. I thought about installing it.. Maybe I will

Ahh

AMR has those?

[acoustic lake]

Not sure, I don't use AMR

[twin moth]

Maybe I should compare with Simcraft..

So you say 10 minutes, huh? I will go crazy

[acoustic lake]

thats about how long I do them if I want to check numbers are all right in simc 😛

[worthy spire]

Opinions for sub?

Regarding trinket

[acoustic lake]

swap out the chrono shard I'd say

[hard drum]

anyone know if it's been calculated if using FoK on single target is worth it with the legendary cape?

I'm assuming it is when its at x stacks, just don't know how many stacks that roughly is

[slate plume]

Looking at the stat weight spreadsheet I have, the agi is better than the stats from the new trink.

and that's not considering that he has a chance for 30% mobility which is pretty sweet.

[worthy spire]

Hmm

I sim stronger with arcano, roughly 8k more dps. But they are just sims... Who knows the validity of those.

[slate plume]

oh. I guess my weighting is out of date or there's something in sub that isn't initially taken into acount.

Also, wouldn't the math on FoK with cape be something like if 50% of mut is less than FOK*11.5 then FOK would be beter wouldn't it?

since FOK is 35 energy rather than 55 but it only awards 1 CP.

[worthy spire]

Well, weight scales are variable, depending on current balance. But I still dont like the concept of having no base agi on trinket.

[slate plume]

oh, I derped at the math there but I just looked at my stats and it would seem worth it to pop FOK when you're at 30 stacks.

a little over 300k for FOK at 30 stacks compared to just over 100k for mut.

[hard drum]

yeah I'll probably just use it at 30 stacks each time

[tawny mantle]

Does anyone know the string to add to artifact in Simcraft for From the Shadows?

[pine gust]

i have it a sub build.. its op on adds burst

[hard drum]

@tawny mantle just go to wowhead artifact calculator, do the tree you want then click the link button

[manic pulsar]

@slate plume for assassination, it's mostly ideal to sync it with Vendetta

[hard drum]

the dreadlords deceit Cape?

[manic pulsar]

So, if Vendetta CD is lower than 1min => use FoK every Vendetta, if Vendetta CD is higher than 1min: use FoK when Vendetta is at 55-60s CD, then when at 29 stacks during vendetta

Yes

[hard drum]

cool, thanks :)

[manic pulsar]

And 29 stacks is better than 30, because you don't waste any uptime

[hard drum]

would you say it's worth switching to vendetta relics and AP (depending on the boss) with the cape?

[manic pulsar]

It is worth already for poison build

[hard drum]

I have rupture relics and waiting to switch out with 3 vendetta ones

hmm okay

from the shadows with more mastery makes the vendetta relics even better too

[manic pulsar]

It's a pretty tricky question, because I don't think the APL is perfectly optimized for every possible combinations of Master Assassin relics + boots

(my fault, mostly)

[merry radish]

Not sure if this is the place to ask, but at 17% haste, haste is still simming >= Crit (as Outlaw). Whereas in Sterjn's guide Haste is bottom, and also in BIS TEN Mythic gear list, the template only has 10% haste, when it could get more.

Anyone know why?

[manic pulsar]

trinkets, talents, relics, legendaries, all of that change stat priority

Best answer is: follow what simc says

And this question belongs to #228879234540503040

[pseudo grove]

wow skasch is on fire this morning ! 😄

[celest hill]

Is weaponmaster still a mystery or is it really better than MoS? Last info i had is that we don't know and that simC values it more than it should or someting like that?

[pseudo grove]

that's somewhat true

don't have time to breakdown exactly the things

evisc and shuriken storm are well handled

I assume that backstab & shadowstrike aswell

[acoustic lake]

I tested dfa and couldn't find any evidence that weaponmaster could proc on the aoe or that it scaled with targets hit

[pseudo grove]

where I am unsure is nightblade & goremaw's bite

[celest hill]

aight Aethys, thanks for the quick info

[pseudo grove]

from what I remember but I would have to ask to navv to be sure

but that's the evisc part that is weaponmastered

at least, this one is for sure

or was at some point when it was tested ^^

since blizz like "ninja fix"

[digital sluice]

@pseudo grove what diffrence with your sims http://simc.aethys.eu/rog_otl_t19x_1t_default.html and offical 865 for rogue?

[pseudo grove]

date

mostly 😄

[digital sluice]

yeah, but on all specs you have higher deepsss

[kind lake]

i got a bit bored today and run a couple of extreme stat distributions on the Rogue_Outlaw_T19H SimCraft profile out of curiosity. dont know if its showing something new or interesting tbh. as someone who hates feeling energy starved, i'll try to get some more haste (obviously).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iKMoSQR38PqGGb247--RfmcXON2Kr7EDjyX-B5Uf3Ko/edit?usp=sharing

[manic pulsar]

Outlaw requires quite some haste

[cerulean berry]

So yesterday after i updated my Simc, I noticed my stat weights changed significantly from valuing vers to haste as outlaw. Has anyone noticed a similar situation. I would post my sims but I am at work right now.

[manic pulsar]

Dunno; when did you last update it before that? Do you have fatebringer relics?

[zenith berry]

just got a 875 signet of melandrus (the 10% autoattack ring); is this thing worth using on sin/sub? :/

[crisp holly]

Sim it!

[zenith berry]

my simcraft doesnt seem to recognize the extra white hit damage

[manic pulsar]

Update it

[fickle wedge]

can we get that chart pinned

cause simple questions chronically gets "how much haste should I have"

[rain lance]

a) no one actually reads the pins, b) I'm not sure that really answers the question about how much haste you should have because that question isn't really answerable from a general perspective

[fickle wedge]

yea but then they are like "at high ilevels, what are the stats I should be looking for and are ther numbers and blah blah"

i would love to say "here is a pin with a chart, gain what information you will and then sim yourself"

cause now i just say "sim yourself" and people get all frustrated

although, lets be honest here. most pople will jsut look at this and say "master sucks eh?"

[pseudo grove]

you can already get somewhat the answer there

http://simc.aethys.eu/4d_plotting_otl_t19m_21k_by1066.html

the thing is

if you move from 18k to 21k to 24k

it doesn't change much

so it's valid to have a global idea

nothing can replace the SIY (sim it yourself)

because things like trinkets (haste that procs by stacks, big amount low uptime, low amount big uptime)

or relic (finisher cost, forgot the name)

can modify it

so there is no point to give exact value

also, you have to add in consideration the talents

and the fight length

[fickle wedge]

I agree

[pseudo grove]

when you put everything altogether, its' only valid in this given context

[fickle wedge]

and im not looking to give a static answer as much as information to go with saying "sim it"

[pseudo grove]

when you go out of that, you CANNOT know directly if it's valid or not

but that's the only trustable answer

people most of the time

ask for X or Y trinkets

here or pm me about that

but I cannot answer this just by my brain and looking at the screenshot

I need to see more infos

[fickle wedge]

but providing information liek that chart or the one you just linked better illustrates why simming is important

so that instead of "sim it" I can say "sim it, here is why"

because when i say "stat values are relative to your personal situation" no one ever understands that

[pseudo grove]

then

you should rather make a guide

to explain how things works

😄

[fickle wedge]

but im laaaaazy

[pseudo grove]

it's 10000X more valuable than just giving people put X haste and Y mastery

or whatever like that

[plush relic]

i agree simming it helps, but i was running into the issue the other night of taking it too far i think. When you get a gear drop, how do you personally determine if its an upgrade or not?

what i was doing was keeping all the questionable pieces and simming all combinations of them together but i think thats a bit much

and dps was within margin of error for the sim

[rain lance]

thats why we generate stat weights, you can use that a useful heuristic to determine if something is an upgrade

[plush relic]

right, but the issue i was having was trying to overthink it, because each piece of gear changes stat weights from what it was before

so i guess is it fine to just sim a gear drop as you get it, equip if higher dps, adjust stat weights, repeat

and how big is enough of an upgrade that its worth equipping, because several pieces of gear I have were maybe +70 dps or -70 dps and i think thats <0.5% error margin

[rain lance]

at the start of the night sim yourself get stat weights, use those stat weights for raid, repeat the next night using upgrades

values shouldn't shift really dramatically over a single nights worth of gear unless you get some special item in which case you can pre-sim that as well

[plush relic]

like a good trinket or relic, basically

[rain lance]

or set bonus

[plush relic]

sounds pretty good to me

[rain lance]

Also once I finish ShC that should also help quite a bit because you can just look at gear on the fly

[plush relic]

yeah that what i used to use, was very handy for stuff like that

simc is nice and all but the workflow is a bit painful

[feral zinc]

anyone got relic optimisateur like this ? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yARKgxjH0M3A7zhaax_ViX7XOrCyZNU5ru2lV8mdMKg/edit#gid=0

[manic pulsar]

I won't do that

And won't recommend doing it

It's error prone, because the ilvl equivalence of a relic is highly dependent on the rest of your gear

The spreadsheet I made is a raw approximation to give a general good idea of what people should be careful about

[torn flume]

Is there an addon that show's item id from Tilto

Tooltip

[plush relic]

theres a few that do it by default, but when i was trying gear on the best method i had was

[torn flume]

Do you can sim something quickly before rolling

[plush relic]

create equip set with current gear

[torn flume]

So

[plush relic]

as a base

equip the piece you wanna check

[torn flume]

Well

[plush relic]

and use the /simc addon

oh for that, not sure

[torn flume]

More for simming drops

[plush relic]

i think even addons that show id only show in your bags or if its linked

not with loot addons

[torn flume]

That you are deciding on wether to roll

[plush relic]

and you would have to find the bonus/wfd or whatever it had on it too

[manic pulsar]

Well, I see ids on tooltip

But I don't know which addon does that, maybe pawn or elvui

[plush relic]

i dont have pawn

elvui does that for me

[pseudo grove]

@torn flume IdTip

it shows every id possible

like on artifact trait

it show both powerid and spellid

on item, it's itemid

etc... etc...

I use it since for addon dev it's so cool 😄

[manic pulsar]

Does it show bonus ids? 😮

drool

[plush relic]

if it allows you to copy ids/bonus ids and just paste, best addon since vanilla

[torn flume]

Thanks! @pseudo grove

[pseudo grove]

na, I don't think it show bonus id

but it's easy to do

just have to dump the item link

and add a line for it in the tooltip

I'm just lazy 😄

but you can suggest it to the guy who make the addon

on the curse page

[torn flume]

Is assass still bugged to where you can use both exsang and ap

[manic pulsar]

I would guess not; however, as Blizzard is well aware of that bug, I would not dare using it if still is.

[torn flume]

For sin the traits that apply to deadly poison, do they also apply to agonizing poison

[manic pulsar]

If you look over on wowhead artifact calculator, you can see the details of agoP vs deadlyP effects

[static zenith]

@manic pulsar did you already update your sims for "Bloodthirsty Instinct"? SimCraft changelog from yesterday stated that it wasnt simming correctly, as in proccing too often

[manic pulsar]

Hum

It will automatically be updated this weekend

That's bad news though 😦

[static zenith]

this might drop the trinket to literally anywhere

"Reduce uptime of Bloodthirsty Instinct based on uptimes observed from logs."

[plush relic]

aka

6 feather fan is the best

[static zenith]

well theres always a second slot ^^ but even previously it was more or less evenly matched with chaos talisman and friends.

[manic pulsar]

Yeah

Main difference is, it can be more reliably dropped at 880+

[static zenith]

if i had known that a bonus roll for the arcanocrystal mightve been a decent idea today, seeing as it is on par even 5 ilvls below

fortunately that trinket seems to be the only one changed

[plush relic]

i rolled on it anyway despite my better judgement because of getting 0 loot all 3 world bosses, gold again.

but i think you can reroll if you go kill him again

[stuck sapphire]

not sure about that

but i dont think that this discussion belongs to theorycrafting

[manic pulsar]

It doesn't

[stuck sapphire]

btw. even if it becomes annoying did anyone test old war potion with t18 2p bonus yet?

[plush relic]

it should work i think

unless they disabled the set bonus

old war works off of damage increases

and thats a flat increase

[stuck sapphire]

the point is they designed it in wod, this means if its logical it doesent have to be right

[plush relic]

try it and see?

[stuck sapphire]

akaari for example is not impacted bythe bonus

well i will but not befor 7.1 its not worth to waste a potion for that^^

[manic pulsar]

For science!

[plush relic]

its 800g-1200g

[stuck sapphire]

oh a volenteer 😃 give me feetback after you tested it

[manic pulsar]

like, shoes?

[plush relic]

i vendored my 18m set

disabled item restoration atm

[fluid nebula]

Those of you who main Sub out there, are you finding that Stjern's opener is weird? SoD -> Shadow Blades -> Shadowstrike to 5- 6 combo points -> Nightblade -> Goremaw’s Bite -> [weirdness right here] Shadow Dance -> Shadowstrike to 5-6 combo points -> Eviscerate -> Repeat.

I find, with shadow blades, goremaws adds 4 points and I normally have one from just hitting the target

so im at 5 CP and it's not worth dancing again to SS

so I just evis then dance -> ss like normal

this is for the opener**

[stuck sapphire]

yes i think stjerns guide is bad, but enforcers say it should only provide a overview

[fluid nebula]

yeah, but posting an opener like that you'd think he would test it or at least think it through once...you would waste CP with that opener

and I think the 3x SS from stealth opener is probably better anyway

[manic pulsar]

@pseudo grove is the MoS around here

[fluid nebula]

3 SS, NB, blades, goremaw, evis, dance ->SSx2 -> finisher like normal

[stuck sapphire]

that also seems wrong

[plush relic]

i think proccing blades right away and 2xSS is better

but honestly openers are marginal compared to getting your rotation down

as long as you dont do it terribly

[manic pulsar]

^

[stuck sapphire]

you can look at the apl for what they use. else you need to do a exact calculation

[rain lance]

Do a not dumb opener (get your maintenance stuff up quick, use cds early, use better abilities first) and the delta is really small, I know someone did a long analysis of assn openers in MoP and the difference was <0.2% for basically everything

[stuck sapphire]

for me it seems best if you : 13.5 (14)sec prebull symbol 3.5(4) pre bull refresh symbol. open with 100 energy. and then i need to do calculate it again but i think it was 2(or 3)ss-nightblade-shadowdance-shd rotation->vanish->spells use stacks of shd and gorens to maintain energy and shd rotation

[fluid nebula]

when would you use Shadow blades fuu?

[rain lance]

if you want to do opener experiments you can hardcode openers in SimC and look at them, once you start talking about what seems best it isn't really theorycrafting

[fluid nebula]

hmm, I'll look into putting them into simc, that will most likely yield the best result

I dont know how to tweak the rotation that much though

[stuck sapphire]

well thats true: let me rephrase: its definitly best to open with 100 energy and extendet symbol but i cant exactly tell you the rotation becouse i did it long time ago and forgot about it (mainly becouse sub was bad)

[fluid nebula]

yeah, my assumption is starting with fresh symbols and 100 energy

but do you pop blades right off the bat? or go 3 SS before popping blades/goremaw

ill just have to sim it and c 😛

[stuck sapphire]

ye just adjust the apl^^

[abstract void]

where does the rotation come from? is it regenerated from the simulation tool or do you have to supply a "fixed" rotation for the simulation tools?

[rain lance]

Rotations are defined using special SimC action priority list (APL) syntax

[plush relic]

i think he means how was it developed

not sure

[abstract void]

but the user has to define it prior to simulation?

[rain lance]

Yes

For instance this is the current subtlety APL: https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/legion-dev/profiles/Tier19P/Rogue_Subtlety_T19P.simc

[abstract void]

okay, I see... but that is totally man-made and is not the result of a optimization

[rain lance]

yes

There are some experiments with generated APLs but they haven't been particularly successful

[abstract void]

are they on github as well? I am a chemical engineer and my field of research is the optimisation of chemical processes and reactors based on a more or less self optimizing method. I am pretty sure it could be easily adapted to this simulation problem. And your simulations don't takes weeks to converge... but I don't want to invest time in something that has been done already 😃

[rain lance]

Irecore was probably the most successful: https://github.com/AeanSR/irecore

you should also talk to @pseudo grove @manic pulsar @chrome sun who have been toying with this

I'm still somewhat skeptical because the search space for an optimal APL is almost certainly non-convex

and it isn't entirely clear to me what features you'd actually optimize over

[manic pulsar]

Well, let's just take a huge network of GPUs and let a deep learning algorithm toy with it

[stuck sapphire]

that wouldnt be that hard tbh

[manic pulsar]

Optimizing everything has a skyrocketting complexity

[rain lance]

Thats where the feature selection and encoding comes in (at least as far I know, this is somewhat outside my area) but a very hard task regardless

[pseudo grove]

it might comes at some point in the future

but atm, my APLs are done using my brain and sometimes WCL

^^

[rain lance]

I am curious to see what Kuar has to say on this as a domain expert

[pseudo grove]

like, back in the days I watched a lot @acoustic lake logs

right now, I do try to optimize through my not yet released Addon

[manic pulsar]

I did with my custom made weakauras for assassination, which works basically the same ^^

[stuck sapphire]

ye you can basicly implement the apl into the game with weakauras ^^

[abstract void]

maybe I am missing something, but the APL looks quite "simple" in terms of search space complexitiy... it will certainly not be possible to optimize the APL for every peace of gear... non-convex, non-linear (?) search problems do take time, yes, but with the right algorithm this could be done within a day of computing time on a normal computer (first rough guess)

[rain lance]

Oh yeah gear is likely very doable, I thought you were talking about the actual rotation where the search space complexity seems intractable

[manic pulsar]

The problem is the APL itself

And more precisely, the if conditions

[abstract void]

No, I meant finding the actual rotation for every piece of gear combination e.g. with trinket X only do 4 CP then Envenom because... stuff

[manic pulsar]

Hum

The number of possible "states" for the player, for single target condition, can be probably reduced to a finite number

[rain lance]

Hmm, ok now I'm very interested

Yeah skasch but it is a pretty big number, 100 energy states, 6 cp states, lets quantize relevant buffs at 0.1 seconds, and say 5-6 relevant buffs per player and you are getting into the billions

[manic pulsar]

Yeah

[rain lance]

of course you could likely prune a ton of those, for instance any energy value below the min energy cost is known to be invalid

[manic pulsar]

I would go by 5 energy steps and 1s buffs xD

[rain lance]

or rather uninteresting

[manic pulsar]

But yeah, that what I had in mind

[ember wigeon]

maintaining APL for more than 8 legendaries would be complicated in the long run if blizz go this way

he's right

[fickle wedge]

see, i dont hang out in other class forums and chats often, are all classes as nerd centric as rogue?

[manic pulsar]

Yeah, billions of states is not reasonable in any way

[fickle wedge]

cause this chat is like, developer porn

[ember wigeon]

well it's #tc-updates

[rain lance]

Thinking about encoding in more detail, since the APLs are now more tied to these variables perhaps a first pass encoding would look at those variables themselves

and I don't know Cerin, rogues have had a weird math bent for as long as I can remember but I don't know if that is some outlier

[fluid nebula]

@fickle wedge I dunno about you, but I've finished 3 times since they started talking about APLs

[fickle wedge]

Right? thats what im saying. Like i ahve seen theorycrafters before, but we are talking about some hardcore code right now.

[fluid nebula]

GPU farms and shit 😄

[manic pulsar]

Math is pretty much the only thing I really have been good at ^^

[fluid nebula]

which APL would I adjust to change the opener?

Stealth cooldown?

[abstract void]

I still have some cluster time available this year. But I would rather aim for a solution anyone could run at home

[rain lance]

Ok lets say we fix the APL order and organization and then using our knowledge we constrain the set of possible conditionals for each ability, then you could encode state reasonably

[abstract void]

I am no theorycrafting professional but using some sort of boundary conditions these states can be reduced by several orders of magnitude in complexity

[rain lance]

You mean constraining the range different values can take?

[abstract void]

Not sure we mean the same thing, but yes...

[fluid nebula]

generally adding boundary conditions to calculations like this will reduce complexity by orders of magnitude

[rain lance]

Ok lets be more concrete, consider this row:
actions+=/variable,name=ss_useable_noreroll,value=(combo_points<5+talent.deeper_stratagem.enabled-(buff.broadsides.up|buff.jolly_roger.up)-(talent.alacrity.enabled&buff.alacrity.stack<=4))

here we know that cp thresholds are integers 0 to 6, alacrity stacks are integers 0-20, and then we have some boolean states with buffs

so our state can be represented by those values and that looks a lot like an integer optimization problem

[abstract void]

yep, but you probably don't have to answer this particular question for every energy state from 0 to 100 indepently but can boil it down to energy above 50 and below 50

[rain lance]

hmm, ok

[manic pulsar]

So you would do that reduction by hand ?

[abstract void]

We do something like that in the optimization of our chemical processes... We take a million fluid elements and solve heat and mass transfer for each fluid element... and optimize it... after that we take the optimized fluid flow field and add some chemical reaction... optimize it again... then we let this flow field with the reaction interact with reactor walls and heat transfer to these walls... and optimize it again... until we can derive a optimal chemical process from it. Yes, it might not be the global minimum if we made mistakes in the first steps, but it reduces computing times for these problems from years to weeks

I'm not sure how to do it mathematically and code wise here, but I am imagining something similar... so the reduction where this border is is done in the first step... and so on

[fluid nebula]

someone's an engineer. I'm jealous, I graduated when there were no engineering jobs because of the recession and so im in web development now 😛

[manic pulsar]

APL is much more discrete by nature

But I get the general idea

I have to think about how to translate it into that specific problem though

[abstract void]

yeah, the APL will require a different approach and frankly I am not totally sure it can be done at all within a resonable time 😃 - but I would have lots of fun thinking about it and try to solve it

[chrome sun]

i was tagged

are we talking about optimal APL search?

[ember wigeon]

Next step is machine learning

Bots will find the best rotation for you

[chrome sun]

most of the interesting work is basically brute force + genetic stuff

i'm not the worlds biggest fan of genetic algorithms in general

but they work well here

particularly because i wasn't searching for the "best" APL in general

just wanted to explore the build/spend options for outlaw

so you have a feature vector like (num_CP, jolly_roger_buff, broadsides_buff, opportunity_buff, time_till_max_energy) and you want to learn what it should do (ghostly strike, pistol shot, saber slash, gouge)

i took as gospel the "outer" bits of the APL

and just generated a lot of options for the inner bits

and them simmed them, and recombined them intelligently

(s/intelligently/with a genetic algorithm)

where "them" refers to the chromosome that those mappings define

[plush relic]

If i may, indeed what you want to fin the optimal APL is machine learning. But as you mentioned the problem is too big to bé brute force. This is very similar to the Go game that Google deepmind déveloped. Basically you use deep learning to add some sort of "intuition" before doing à random tree search.

What's nice is that once your algorthm is trainer it is really fast to compute and everyone cab use it at home

But training requires huge gpu :p

[ember wigeon]

if Blizzard buff and nerf here and there you would need to retrain everything

would cost much cpu 😃

[plush relic]

Indeed

But still very interesting to develop!

[chrome sun]

what's the function that your network is trying to learn? that's the hard part

it's the representation space

[rain lance]

ok I think this deserves its own channel

[chrome sun]

ehhh, maybe not worth fragmenting?

we can take it to general if you'd prefer

[abstract void]

the network is aiming for maximal dps on a patchwerk type encounter

[rain lance]

and #233297551137308672 now exists

Figure we can keep this channel for less speculative TC discussion

[chrome sun]

fair.

[ember wigeon]

I don't think you can train for any kind of gear easily

would cost so much to sim(train) for each gear setup

but Idk

[rain lance]

take it to #233297551137308672

[plush relic]

@pseudo grove still need some sub WM logs or is it enough now? 😃

[tough goblet]

Hey guys. Do you think it's worth to take either Swordmaster or Quickdraw after getting Waterlogged Lgendary? (Between the eyes has 20% per combo point to increase the damage of pistol shot by 400%) Also I have Blunderbaus

Any solid math on this?

[fickle wedge]

i would doubt it

10% damage incerase vs 9 pistol shots per minute

i can find some logs to try and compare

[tough goblet]

Blunderbauss is becoming more prevelant now that we are getting later into Legion. Without the legendary (Pistol shot Legendary) I assume it's not worth it. But with the legendary, it could be different

Because the assumption is that 1 Between the eyes + Pistol/Blunder > Eviscerate

[fickle wedge]

i would say definitly not saberslash

since it only bosts the damage of your next one

sorry

swrod master

sword*

[tough goblet]

I knew what you mean

meant*

[fickle wedge]

lol

[tough goblet]

I think there might be an arguement for quick draw

[fickle wedge]

maybe

most of what i have said so far doesnt make sense

like at all

lol

[tough goblet]

hey

I found some logs

wanna discuss this?

[fickle wedge]

yea, im looking at some too

trying to math it out now

[open gust]

Is it normal that simc and amr adwise different stats? amr vers and simc haste on 863 itmlvl outrogue...

8k+ haste according to simc is ok, but according to amr just 2k+

[oak knoll]

amr still has bte in the rotation i wouldnt really trust it

unless they changed it frm last time I checked ...

[cobalt torrent]

bte does more dmg for me atm then rt but the rng is not always great

idk amr sim dps #'s seem more on par then wtf simc sim's me at good lawd

[waxen pilot]

Ive got a trinket question. Trying to figure out if an 835 six-feather fan is better than an 840 tirathons betryal. I dont want to equip the fan to sim it in case its not btter so I can trade it to someone else, but I dont know how to add it to a sim if it isnt equipped

[acoustic lake]

trinket1=,id=141585,bonus_id=1497/3336

will do an 835 six-feather fan

for future though, you can get the required ids from wowhead

[waxen pilot]

thank you

[pseudo grove]

@plush relic it's fine ty

[mellow wagon]

So is agonizing poison really better than ensanganate now?

[manic pulsar]

Depends

BtE is worth it if you have the legendary and SiW

[pseudo grove]

might be just legendary btw @manic pulsar

there were bugfix on this on simc

didn't tested since ... well .. sub 4 life

but since u're not busy 😛

[manic pulsar]

Yeah

I'll test that

[maiden hatch]

Where are the 865+ sims where sub is king? Their absense is tangible.

Even tho all the really good ppl here go sub 😉

[manic pulsar]

absence?

[maiden hatch]

Someone like aggregate dps for EN mythic over the last week

Outlaw is absolute lowest spec ingame

Sub is shit tier

Assass is middle of pack