L2 BAN SYSTEM FEEDBACK AND THOUGHTS

[foggy plover]

let me do the math rq

[marble nest]

Idk I just don't like the idea that players who aren't as good are being held to the same standard as players who are good as an argument and I think at lower mmrs you should value consistency in one field

[old vigil]

I think it's simpler to use but you are just used to the last one

[tepid night]

i feel like the idea is good because imo lots of games are really repetitive

[dense folio]

is there any reason the number of decks was limited to only 7 random ones and not like, 14 or something?

[tepid night]

cuz most games are either zodiac, yellow, ghost

[tardy whale]

that's a possibility

[tepid night]

pretty much only 3 decks ive actually played recently

[foggy plover]

if you're right handed and wrote with your left hand all your life, you might find it hard to start writing with your right, even if its easier

[smoky bobcat]

That’s exactly why we implemented this to begin with

We want ranked to be who is good at Balatro, not who is good at 4% of Balatro

[foggy plover]

so youre saying good players are rewarded for being good?

[old vigil]

Testing, can be moved around

[tepid night]

yeah but rn i feel this system is almost the exact opposite of the last system

i feel somewhere inbetwen would be good

each pereson could get like 2 decks they choose to ban

[tardy whale]

I heavily disagree with that statement I don't think higher stakes matter for pvp u are against another person not the game

[tepid night]

and then this current system then gets implemented

[foggy plover]

good high stakes players only die intentionally

[tepid night]

higher stakes nerf a lot of more incosistent strats like idol

[foggy plover]

the goal is still to score as much as possible

[old vigil]

Or cope

[foggy plover]

LOL

[old vigil]

Who hasn't died for being dumb and coped saying comeback money is op?

[old vigil]

(It is op but that's another discussion)

[tender bronze]

Tbh a way to choose or increase the chance to get a deck/stake would be nice to have

[marble nest]

Im saying its prob better to learn with what is comfortable and focusing in one area to get good in so you can learn fundamentals. Lower mmr games should be who is the best at the fundamental ideas of bmp and giving players what they are comfortable with more often allows that to happen. At higher mmrs you know the fundementals so now its get good at everything

[foggy plover]

there are fundamentals of white stake, black stake, and gold stake

[rigid bramble]

gold stake plays different than white stake

[tepid night]

i think the idea is good but implementation would be difficult

[kindred galleon]

While I'm to new&bad to have a valid opinion on the new changes:
I would suggest maybe having the random deck/stake combinations the bot displays bed ordered (either by stake or by deck)? [iirc it's currently random?]

[shut prism]

i think a big problem is that noone queues casual lol

[mellow fable]

genuinely insanely good suggestion

[smoky bobcat]

Genuinely great idea

[old vigil]

You can:
A) have enough reps so you learn the fundamentals by playing games (it will take way more games)
B) queue casual until you get your fundamentals going.
C) don't care about internet points and play whatever you feel like

[old vigil]

More people will if they don't like ranked ban system

[tardy whale]

the new system is in casual currently anyway

[spiral sundial]

are they "likers" or okay with ers

[old vigil]

Yup, there are a lot of them

[foggy plover]

and also, what if a new players wants to play higher stakes? I have a friend who got C++ before starting ranked multiplayer and wanted to play gold stake cuz they do gold stake streaks. Why should they be required to play white stake? You talk about a player getting good in one area, but they aren't allowed to get good in anything other than white stake because they're at a lower mmr (i waited 5 mins for this 🥹 )

[smoky bobcat]

Don’t they effectively count the same? People who are ok with it are going to keep playing

[old vigil]

Discussion about making casual not with this ban system may be in order then

[rigid bramble]

lessons learned in gold are important, if you only ever play white you will think this game is idol hunt sim. I am a stone player and i like queing higher stakes because i dont like 2 hour games. youre plan forces me to play only white and would cause me to stop playing

[shut prism]

the new system is in casual too?

[old vigil]

If you can make it work, gold is also idol hunt

[spiral sundial]

why not have 7 stakes possible to play and give the bot 5 of them to pick each time, I would prefer if the stakes were seperate from the decks for more variety chosen from the player, then same with having some decks not appear in every vote, it feels weird applying decks to stakes but thats just imo

[supple tendon]

But what percentage of gold stakes games actually end in an idol battle versus white stake

[tardy whale]

I also feel my biggest issue on this system Is I pick only based on the stake and not the deck so I end up getting decks I don't like

[dense folio]

same stake showing up 3+ times in a list of 7 feels a bit silly and maybe that's worth looking into

[smoky bobcat]

It has been changed for maximum 3 appearances for a stake.

[old vigil]

Yeah no, I agree

[foggy axle]

so like how random do we think this random option set actually is

[old vigil]

Looks good to me

[marble nest]

This is also an argument against vetoing as well. I think generally ranked towards the lower ends of the player base are going to have an easier time focusing on playing well generally if they play same decks/stakes, and most of the complaints are from people with less mmr saying "hey I can't play with what I'm comfortable with". This format forces be a jack of all trades while the previous format was favored to try to learn how to be good at the same things (sure maybe only white stake, but you also had way more control on what deck is getting played). I just think both are important and this format doesn't have anything to let people have more consistent games which is good for finding out who the best player is but Id argue bad for learning how to be the best player. And what I hear from most of the lower mmr players is that they lost that consistency and I think thats healthy from a place to start.

[rigid quest]

This is true

Fact checked

[frozen juniper]

Will add, great suggestion

[mellow fable]

I play different than other top players

[foggy plover]

only happens 1.6% of the time!

[smoky bobcat]

Love that someone who has been here for literally 1 day can improve a system like this

[rigid quest]

you lose?

[mellow fable]

it was an er ref but ur just mean

[high pulsar]

nothin crazy to add here but i hate the new bans

[frozen juniper]

Care to elaborate

It seems not

[smoky bobcat]

They’ve been typing on and off

[frozen juniper]

Ah

Fair

My bad

lol

I somehow missed the entire typing 😭

[high pulsar]

there is a timer on the chat...

[frozen juniper]

Oh

There is???

[smoky bobcat]

I knocked slowmode down to 60 seconds

It was at 5 minutes from somebody

[frozen juniper]

Do we really need slow mode

[smoky bobcat]

Probably when this place was going crazy after first announcement

[frozen juniper]

I don't think we do now

[smoky bobcat]

Well it’s off now

[brazen forum]

Played around 5 games in it today, brings me back to single player survival vibes in purple / gold again and kinda nice to play for survival instead of constantly optimizing for PvP

[frozen juniper]

Let the people speak 🗣️

[brazen forum]

A lot of decisions on purple I wouldn’t make on white / jokers i normally skip

[foggy plover]

yeah it was at 5 mins for me

it started an hr ago

[brazen forum]

Though I think in the last 3 I played game ended cause of blinds (from both sides) not PvP so idk if players necessarily will like being forced into that environment but I take it as i have to adapt in ranked if im dying to blinds cause im being too reckless / greedy from white stake habits

[foggy plover]

yeah def part of it

[frozen juniper]

I see forcing getting not used to white stake as a plus

[smoky bobcat]

I feel like that type of adapting is something all white stake mains are going through, not just you

[frozen juniper]

One of the biggest problems with BMP Ranked was the hardcore reliance on white stake

Which is a scourge on balancing

[brazen forum]

Need to get back to balatro university

[frozen juniper]

If nothing else, this makes people play other stakes

[smoky bobcat]

What was it Hydra said?

[frozen juniper]

Or yknow

Both agree to play ghost white

Not like we can force you lol

[foggy plover]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1421555760395190504/1465059493590204416/togif.gif

[foggy axle]

I like this for ranked, not for sw

[frozen juniper]

Yeah we will probably keep it only for ranked

[foggy axle]

thats almost stranger to me tbh

[frozen juniper]

We force it on all to have people have to try it

[foggy axle]

but I wouldnt complain

[frozen juniper]

I mean

I don't have that much of a say or care to say things about it

But

I feel like it's pretty well suited for ranked particularly

I don't think casual even needs deck bans

May replace it

[high pulsar]

i think we should have the option to ban a stake or two and/or a deck or two before we get the randomizer imho.

[spiral sundial]

deck bans are good for anti-social ppl

[old vigil]

Probably when people stopped being respectful

[high pulsar]

i think we the combos we get aren't varied enough. i've basically been forced to play shit i don't want to each game so far.

[frozen juniper]

This sort of defeats the idealized purpose of forcing people to get better at other combos and decks

[frozen juniper]

However this is fair

[high pulsar]

has there been an expressed need in people wanting to get better at other combos or decks?

or interest?

[agile tapir]

lmfao!!!!

[frozen juniper]

Yeah it's the primary reason ranked play is so stale

75% of combos are just never played

Stone and steel is just always white stake

[high pulsar]

are people complaining about that?

[smoky bobcat]

Yes, yes they are.

[frozen juniper]

There's been a consistent complaint about stale ranked play, yeah

[spiral sundial]

stone and steal should just be white stake if theyre learning how to play imo

[frozen juniper]

We rolled out this patch and hit our peak match count ever

At 61 matches played

[smoky bobcat]

That was mostly due to curiousity but alas

[frozen juniper]

And that was 2 hours after it dropped

[spiral sundial]

its like asking cs noobs not to pick mirage or nuke

[high pulsar]

lemme finish my match rq then i'll come back and chat yall

[frozen juniper]

This isn't CS

Decks are the maps of this game

And the variety

[old vigil]

We take the Ws

[frozen juniper]

Frankly I do think cs players only picking something like mirage is also lame but that's just me

[spiral sundial]

oh i do agree but to get the fundamentals down its a good little box you can put yourself in

[frozen juniper]

Also I think a really important point to make is that you can agree to bypass them completely

[spiral sundial]

yeah 100%

[frozen juniper]

If you and your opponent don't want to, you can just ignore it

I plan to improve the bot systems to detect deck/stake played better

[old vigil]

X happens on Y game is a bad argument

[frozen juniper]

When the bot isn't used

[spiral sundial]

comparing X to Y isnt but using X's theories to make Y theories is semi-valid ?

i have a feeling the newer players will just ignore the bot in general at that point which is fine but meh

[high pulsar]

@frozen juniper maybe something that allows both players to not do the pair select, and it'll revert to the old ban stake/deck bot?

[mellow fable]

that is called typing in the chat

[frozen juniper]

Defeats the purpose

No point in doing it at that point

The idea is to get people playing new decks and stakes

The main valid criticism I've seen is that there isn't enough variety among the picks. This is a valid criticism I'll try to address

[high pulsar]

doesnt typing in the chat and bypassing the bot also defeat the purpose?

[frozen juniper]

No that's just an unavoidable thing

[foggy plover]

white cock?

[frozen juniper]

If people wanna do that by all means

But we don't have to enable it

[onyx basin]

i just really wish there was a way for both players to agree to use the old ban system

[high pulsar]

^

[agile tapir]

agree bat

[frozen juniper]

"Hey I wanna ban these 6 decks"
"Ok well I pick these 3"
"I pick that"

Done

Old system is back

[agile tapir]

who wants to do all that tho.... when it was right there....

[onyx basin]

oh yea that works too

[high pulsar]

thats too much bro

[spiral sundial]

thats a lot more effort then clicking on a bot for anti-social ppl

[agile tapir]

fr lol

[onyx basin]

fr

[frozen juniper]

Crazy that you can't just say a few words

😭

[spiral sundial]

anxiety is crazy

💀

[frozen juniper]

It's not even a convo

It's just votes

[spiral sundial]

ive shown ppl this server and they were too scared to play bc of anxiety

[high pulsar]

i get that ur the dev, but this chat is opened for opinions and its a whole lot of defending.

we're the users lol.

[foggy plover]

once again, if you are right handed, but are taught your entire life to write with your left, starting to learn to write with your right hand is annoying at first, but is still worth doing

swim

you have sent 13 messages!

[spiral sundial]

it is worth doing 100% but i dont think a comfort game should be that bridge to being "better" human

[mellow fable]

guys if you cant handle 3 messages in a queue chat then idk how youre even getting feedback into this thread

[agile tapir]

like i can just type a few words..... it was a nice convenience to use the system that was created.... i dont feel bad for thinking that lol

[old vigil]

Just go back to before botlatro when you had to interact with the opponent

[foggy plover]

you dont interact with the community tbf

[frozen juniper]

I'm not the one who even came up with this

[foggy plover]

^

[frozen juniper]

Nor the one who decided it should be added

I can have my own opinions on it

[foggy plover]

just the tool to make it

[frozen juniper]

At the end of the day, I'm doing what people want most. We're taking in all the feedback

If most people hate the new system, it'll go back

[high pulsar]

yeah i sent 13 messages, it's annoying to type the stuff i want to ban each match lol.

[foggy plover]

also thinking that the entire community doesnt like it because the people who hate it are being loud isnt conclusive

[spiral sundial]

i dont hate this update but the changes that you want idk if they'll come from this

[foggy plover]

no this is ever

not in queues

[open kestrel]

After a set period of time will there be a poll to see which system people like better?

[foggy plover]

yes

[old vigil]

Just say the 6 decks, 9/10 times opponent will understand

[foggy plover]

2 weeks probably

[frozen juniper]

We will have more clear feedback methods

@round bison maybe you're right about the feedback stuff we discussed low key

lol

[smoky bobcat]

Yes but we won't exclusively decide from a poll.

[frozen juniper]

I may have been misguided

[foggy plover]

LOLLL

[frozen juniper]

We are considering all with it

[foggy plover]

@round bison i always loved your feedback forms <3

[spiral sundial]

i mean tbh if u want more variety why not just have every stake available for the bot to pick from so white might not appear

[high pulsar]

who cares if i sent 13 messages ever, i still lurk, play, and i'm literally only speaking for myself. i haven't spoken for anyone else in this community so i'm not really sure what you're getting at. i've also asked a few questions about people's need/desire to change and diversify the play.

[old vigil]

Keep it in a txt file and copy paste

[smoky bobcat]

I like this idea personally but I feel it will anger the white stake players even more, as you go from a 1/5 chance for white to appear to 1/8

[agile tapir]

it can be done obv but ppl r allowed 2 express preference for the function that did this for them lol

[smoky bobcat]

We still want to find a happy medium in the end

[frozen juniper]

Regardless what anyone says

I would rather do what most people want

This is an experiment

We are experimenting for once

[spiral sundial]

valid but i think if you are able to choose a deck ppl will care less about what the stake is

[foggy plover]

this current format still allows the 2 white stake players to play white stake in match

[old vigil]

For sure they are, I am giving solutions tho

[frozen juniper]

This is basically the old deck ban system

[spiral sundial]

causing for more variety of stakes at least

[foggy plover]

once again, the point is to stop people from playing the exact same deck 90% of the time

[smoky bobcat]

*most of the time

[high pulsar]

not very often and with shitty decks.

[foggy plover]

yeah 11% chance it wont have white stake in it

[onyx basin]

too much effort to find the txt file

[frozen juniper]

What I think we could do is guarantee there is always 1 white stake option

At least

[foggy plover]

i think at least 1 green

[onyx basin]

ik ppl also love black stake

[old vigil]

Like everyone can express their opinion as long as it is on a constructive and respectful manner

[foggy plover]

white doesnt have to be guaranteed

[onyx basin]

the eternal jokers really make the game more interesting

[onyx basin]

i think it should if at least one player is in stone rank

[foggy plover]

yeah we talked ab mmr brackets

would be similar to veto button prob

except its just always

[agile tapir]

mayb yall shoulda talked longer

[spiral sundial]

eh

[foggy plover]

me when the people testing are testing things

[spiral sundial]

best way to get the best result is from putting it into practice

[smoky bobcat]

So someone clearly doesn't know what "a constructive and respectful manner" means

[frozen juniper]

im not even entirely against making sure every stake is at least available

[spiral sundial]

this is prob 10x more effective than the mods talking

[foggy plover]

^

[smoky bobcat]

Trust, mods talking only = nothing ever changes

[frozen juniper]

implying that the mods don't also play

[foggy plover]

literally

bro we had to spend 2 days trying to ban a person everyone wanted banned

[frozen juniper]

staff server is hell

lol

[foggy plover]

and im only commentator

[high pulsar]

idk, maybe each player selects a stake they want to play and 2/3 decks a piece. the bot randomizes through that and throws in an extra random.

[spiral sundial]

i didnt mean that in that way but mb

i apologize D:

[foggy plover]

no that wasnt a bad thing

we agree

LOL

[frozen juniper]

all good all good I misunderstood

[spiral sundial]

<3

[frozen juniper]

thats my bad

[old vigil]

Mods don't play the game

[foggy plover]

so like

[frozen juniper]

I am not against anyone giving constructive criticism

[foggy plover]

this is practically old ban system

[high pulsar]

what if instead of banning stuff, we select what players are open to playing?

or i guess, randomize it?

[spiral sundial]

randomize is also an interesting option tbh

[foggy plover]

what do you mean randomize

[high pulsar]

so it'd work something like this:

[spiral sundial]

literally random deck and stake xd

[foggy plover]

yall would have so many more problems with random random i fear

[spiral sundial]

i agree

10000000%

[onyx basin]

like imagine all black deck or painted deck gold stake

[old vigil]

Imagine if this was only done as a closed test with staff members, we all liked it and forced it into ranked permanently. It would feel way more awful than this.

[spiral sundial]

real

[onyx basin]

the -1 joker slot on painted deck is so detrimental

[foggy plover]

so far only 1 person in the staff server has had slight problems with it 😭

[mellow fable]

bacon and I did a bunch of testing to be fair

[foggy plover]

painted gold is actually nice

[high pulsar]

so it works like this:
i pick 1 stake i'm open to playing.
opponent picks 1 stake they are open to playing, excluding what i chose.
bot picks a random stake.

i pick 2 decks i'm open to playing.
oppenent picks 2 decks they're open to playing, excluding what i chose.
bot picks a random deck or two.

bot randomizes the stake and deck selection. we choose from there.

[foggy plover]

+2 hand size rules

[foggy plover]

random stake out of the 2?

[onyx basin]

-1 joker slot tho...

[foggy plover]

just go high card

[high pulsar]

no, it'll just throw in a random stake that neither of us specifically chose.

[old vigil]

But we are allowing testing to be made by the large public where they also have the cance to voice their opinion

[mellow fable]

1/4 games are now on black gold congrats

[foggy plover]

gotcha, because this has more issues than the current system

cuz you have no control if it goes lower or higher

[onyx basin]

i kinda wish the stakes that the mod adds could be chosen so there was no -1 discard

[foggy plover]

right now you can ban down

[mellow fable]

yeah something like this NEEDS a widespread test

[foggy plover]

so it will typically only be highest on black stake

[old vigil]

Agreed 1000%

[foggy plover]

but in your format, it hits gold WAY more without ur control

[high pulsar]

hmmmm

maybe i'm not following, why would it hit gold?

[foggy plover]

because i chose gold stake

[mellow fable]

because my stake is gold

[high pulsar]

oh

[foggy plover]

in the current format

you never have to play gold stake

you can always ban all 3 gold stakes

[high pulsar]

i actually didn't realize that.

is that on the bot itself?

[foggy plover]

wym

[high pulsar]

or where am i able to full ban the gold selections?

[foggy plover]

any given stake

[high pulsar]

like the gold pairs

[foggy plover]

appears a maximum of 3 times from the bot

[smoky bobcat]

Each stake in the system will only show up a max of 3 times. You are guaranteed 3 combo bans in this current system.

[foggy plover]

so you can just ban all 3 if the bot choses gold stake 3 times

[onyx basin]

i mean ig u could ban all 3 gold stakes, but then u might be forced to play a deck u dont like

[high pulsar]

where the docs on the new feature

[spiral sundial]

thats kinda the plan of the update i fear

[foggy plover]

exactly!

[smoky bobcat]

...there really isn't any

[old vigil]

I can't with people complaining without knowing how it works

[high pulsar]

some docs would be solid

[spiral sundial]

weal

[high pulsar]

hey man i just hopped on trying to play balatro all night

[smoky bobcat]

If this becomes permanent (or any version like this) there will definitely be some made.

[smoky bobcat]

It will end up in #ranked-rules likely

[foggy plover]

w announcement

[high pulsar]

okay

[onyx basin]

imagine:
Black Deck + Gold Stake
Black Deck + Orange Stake
Painted + Gold
Painted + Orange
Nebula + Gold
Nebula + Orange
still screwed

[foggy plover]

ranked stakes only

[onyx basin]

oh thats why only 5 stakes showed up

[foggy plover]

yes that could happen with purple, but you'd still get one black stake

[onyx basin]

then replace orange with purple

[foggy plover]

also painted purple is AWESOME

[foggy plover]

so

there we go

painted purple rules

[mellow fable]

theres also still the reroll button

[high pulsar]

just to clarify, bans go something like this:
first person bans 1
second person bans 2
third person bans 3
fourth person bans 1?

i only tried it out twice

[foggy plover]

also this is an astronomically low chance of happening

[onyx basin]

HOW theres -1 joker slot

[smoky bobcat]

...the odds of this are astronomically small

[smoky bobcat]

1-2-2-1

[high pulsar]

ty

[smoky bobcat]

And fourth picks 1 (but same thing basically)

[onyx basin]

fairs

[foggy plover]

nvm im wrong

oopsie

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/909634285105991680/1273820933643304960/attachment.gif

[onyx basin]

i just dont see how painted deck us good with -1 joker slot

[foggy plover]

play it!

[high pulsar]

is there a playground somewhere where i can mess with the bot?

[mellow fable]

someone accidentally left in a command that lets you test it

[foggy plover]

painted purple is one of my fav combos

[high pulsar]

nice, do you have it handy?

[mellow fable]

slash test-tuple-bans

go to bot commands or im going to go nuts

[high pulsar]

i will dw

[onyx basin]

hmm ill try it someday

[high pulsar]

thinking more, so why is it a bad idea to have a player ban a stake and a deck each before we get the combos?

[supple tendon]

Because then you can just avoid playing even more combinations

As it currently stands, it is possible to only ever prevent yourself from playing on 1 stake (if that stake shows up 3 times, your 3 bans go towards it)

But then you lose all preference for the deck you're putting your bans towards

If you were able to add to that, you would be avoiding a lot more of the game, and therefore not truly testing you as a player.

We could have just done random random for everyone but then you get ZERO choice at all to what you're playing, and while that would probably create the best ranked environment for testing players as a whole, people would never stop complaining about that.

[onyx basin]

theres only 5 stakes allowed in ranked and banning 2 of them is like 40% of the game

[high pulsar]

yeah, i guess what's tricky about it is figuring out what to prioritize. i can either spend my bans targeting stake, or targeting deck, but not really both. i think that's where i have the biggest hang up.

[foggy plover]

Yeah that’s the point 😭

You have to be flexible somewhere

[violet ledge]

I think the root of a lot of the disagreements is that some people here believe being good at BMP means being good at every deck and stake, and others do not

#1470480088926650378 message

like this was pinned like its some absolute truth, when to me it’s just not at all

[spiral sundial]

i dont think a leaderboard is ever filled with the top players in majority of other games

[foggy plover]

????

[onyx basin]

wym by that?

[spiral sundial]

its prob bc of esports and teams practicing but usually the top .00001% of players arent playing ranked

[old vigil]

Well, it was pinned as it is the aim of this new system

It even says we want

[foggy plover]

we dont have esports here, so i dont think that applies

[spiral sundial]

valid and most likely true xd

[high pulsar]

idk, i understand people want this feature, but if two players essentially agree upon a stake and a deck they both want to play and feel they can play best at, that's the test of who is a better player in those circumstances. which is valid. also in the previous ban system, often times we didn't always get the stake/deck we wanted so there was a level of flexibility that still worked around player's wants. with this system it sort of feels like here's a bunch of shit to choose from, try to pick the least miserable thing, except like 5/7 of the pairs are miserable.

[old vigil]

I will give you that the best player and the player at the top of the leaderboard might not necessarily coincide

[violet ledge]

Well it’s not a great message for that, it’s absurd hyperbole and comes off a bit like talking down

[old vigil]

You can still agree to a deck and stake combo or to do old bans manually. The idea here is you dont gent to ban 2/5 stakes and 6/17 decks

[onyx basin]

yea like every black deck and blue stake or higher is miserable

[onyx basin]

true

[high pulsar]

it can be fun sometimes, but man sometimes i am just tryna hop on and play some white zodiac or some shit.

[mellow fable]

functionally 8/17 decks

[supple tendon]

It's called casual or just asking for it 😬

[foggy plover]

once again, you can agree upon a stake and deck OUTSIDE of the pick ban

[onyx basin]

maybe if this system only applies in ranked

[old vigil]

What other 2 decks can you ban?

Oh wait no I got it

[mellow fable]

the two that you dont pick from the opponent

[old vigil]

Nvm

[old vigil]

Yeah, took me a sec

[spiral sundial]

how populated are the other queues generally ?

[foggy plover]

other than small world?

about 0 players

LOL

[high pulsar]

yea...

[onyx basin]

fr like aint no one playing casual

[spiral sundial]

so if u want to play the game u kinda get forced to play ranked

[foggy plover]

basically, playerbase isnt big enough for casual and competitive

so its just competitive

[onyx basin]

so we need to get more players?

[foggy plover]

if you want to play casual, you can still ask people and do friendlies outside the game

i play more friendlies than ranked games

[spiral sundial]

i mean people like Bean are def growing this community so

[foggy plover]

yeah, but it'll never get that big

[spiral sundial]

agreed

sadly

[onyx basin]

eh i have no incentive to play casual, not like i lose mmr if i lose at this point

[old vigil]

If there is enough pushback to this system I'd expect people would play casual more (if it is decided that casual goes back to old system or no bans)

[foggy plover]

2.0 patch might bring in more but

its too niche

[spiral sundial]

it is but i think there is a market for this game rn

[barren lark]

I think the twitch and youtube stuff brings a lot of people to multiplayer

[spiral sundial]

it does bc any light on the game shows the potential of MP balatro

[old vigil]

Yeah but most of them are BMM users, I don't really like the trade off

[spiral sundial]

the bigger the game is the more toxic ppl are tbf

[foggy plover]

the bigger the ranked scene *

stardew valley isnt toxic

[old vigil]

But BMM will always be worse

[onyx basin]

i agree that u shouldnt use bmm

[spiral sundial]

mod manager? sorry im dumb

[old vigil]

You might be my new favorite stoner

[spiral sundial]

bmm D:

[old vigil]

Yeah

[onyx basin]

lmao

only 230 more mmr and ill be a steel gamer

[old vigil]

Just use a chariot on youself

[spiral sundial]

i mean u can argue animal crossing is a bigger game that is p much the same with toxic ppl

crazy to be toxic in a game like that but it exists 💀

[foggy plover]

animal crossing community is toxic?

[onyx basin]

impossible with my losing steak of currently 6 losses

[foggy plover]

ive had no toxicity in that game

[spiral sundial]

yeah bc its settled down and trolls dont stay on games for long cycles

[foggy plover]

i mean i played mainly years ago

[old vigil]

New system will change that, just learn how to not die to blinds and pick the highest stake possible

[onyx basin]

maybe i can finally have an mmr that isnt the same shape as the egg joker

[urban lark]

make it so you can see what combos have been banned already, sometimes I forget and kind of think it would be nice to know

[viscid spear]

this system is great

i like this a lot more than the old system tbh

i think this inherently incentivizes variety

[foggy plover]

get this man a true

[queen path]

Haven't play a match but this change is awesome
Love how variety in deck and stake we get today compare to old days when there's only 1 deck and 1 stake

[dreamy valley]

what if it hits danger pack and unicorn pack 10 times each and i only own turtle pack and the 4th player only gets 2 bans

[eager comet]

true...

[jolly delta]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1421555760395190504/1465059493590204416/togif.gif

[oblique ravine]

I like this so far, forcing me out of my comfort zone of only playing white/black stake

[round bison]

Holy turnaround after making me feel like my ideas are shit AGAIN 😭

lol

It’s fine this channel is active enough we don’t need it

[frozen juniper]

I didnt realize how chaotic this channel would be but yeah

I don't think we super need it

[whole lion]

Hi 🙂 I have played the most ranked games of any player this season. I'm not insinuating that my opinion matters more -- I like it/I don't like it doesn't have a threshold of games-played to matter.

With that being said, I like it. Thank you for the update, and all of the work we don't see. 💟

Also for another feedback I would like the L2 BAN SYSTEM to have a music to play during it maybe Mozart or P!nk

sorry one more maybe a way to link it to a Blackberry phone so i can do the L2 BAN SYSTEM from my Blackberry device (sometimes i walk around during the L2 BAN SYSTEM to grab a refreshments or look at myself in the mirror and blow kisses while i wait)

[round bison]

😭

Lmao

[jade marlin]

Why do people converge towards ghost, zodiac, and yellow?

and white stake

and like why does it need to be fixed

[grizzled wadi]

Add a small chance of spectral+ would be cool but idk if everyone likes it

[dull pine]

fucking a man

[chilly viper]

Just what the ppl know best, really. easiest decks and stakes to play

mostly would need to be fixed cause ppl are too carried into white ghost or white zodiac that it kinda can make it really not fun to start out cause ppl are so white zodiac pilled

also cause so many ppl use it its kinda smth ppl can cheese out wins for more or less free

ppl have to be good at the game not just white zodiac to get good

[fallen sequoia]

The funny thing about ghost, zodiac and yellow is that most stone/steel players think they're good at them so they try to force them every game even if it's not giving them an advantage

Of course them being strong decks is also a factor and I can understand playing the decks you like the most

But so many people think they'll start losing MMR because of this change as if everyone else in their rank isn't on the same boat

[chilly viper]

If I had a true I would absolutely true you but i just don't have discord temp nitro

[thin grove]

I love gold but even I'm not sure about spectral+ because I want my -1 discard back (I suggested a stake above gold before it got implemented and I feel like I slightly got monkey's pawed)

[bold zinc]

oh boy I read some of the messages in this thread from yesterday it turned into a reddit post with all the attacks lol

[verbal cargo]

People will get better faster if they can play the same deck over and over rather than a different one often, it's like if you were trying to improve at a fighting game by selecting random every time, or drafting a different set of magic every time you drafted.

[urban lark]

fighting game characters are asymmetrical between players, and you can always play the one you want. this is true of neither deck or stake

youre not going to get better playing the same deck and especially the same stake every time because in tournament your not going to be able to play the same deck and stake every time

[verbal cargo]

systems are symmetric, it's about how consistently a player can interact with a system, not a specific interaction, if a player is playing the same deck every time, deck based decisions are limited, a player who plays 150 games on the same deck and stake then transfers to learning over 50 games the rest of it will probably learn more than a player playing 200 over a variety

[marble nest]

is it possible to make a revised L2 Ban system that allows more player intervention (load 1-3 random combos, players can add 2 combos) for lower mmr players and then test that out in like a week or two and see the differences in opinion from lower mmr players? That way we can test both options from the trial runs and see player opinions? I think this format shouldn't change for anyone above 300-400 mmr range. Its going to be hard to test the hypothesis about comfortable combo picking -> better learning outcomes

[verbal cargo]

I guess the only problem I can think with that is people can still try to strong arm one combo with like gold stake black and purple nebula or something, which would lead to the same issues with that the old system has

I've only played like 2 games of the new system I liked it but I think I'd rather just white black and gold, I don't care for the between stakes too much

[marble nest]

I think if you are strong arming gold black deck nebula gold in <300 mmr I'd think with the understanding to play on those decks you could get out of <300 mmr on any other deck and stake

[violet ledge]

This makes no sense, more success at tournaments with new rulesets every week is not the objective measure of getting better

[kindred plover]

loving this ngl

like im very low level on the mmr but this is genuinely better than last one since it forces diff deck

like since im low on the totem pole it makes me try out diff decks and like helps me try diff shi which i wudnt normally do since on "familiar decks and stake" i try to play towards something ik

like i play magic on white and i always like somehow used to try to get death to use the 2 fools

but i had a match on gold stake and since econ is bad i fooled the judgement

got a negative to do list helped me win

made me realise "hmm interesting" there are ways to this

[urban lark]

i meant standard tournaments since thats what is played competitively, if the definition of getting better is getting better at the standard format, and the standard format is played on multiple decks and stakes, then playing other decks and stakes going to help you get better

the carry over of experience between white and gold imo is not super large, if you played just ghost white in singleplayer, and then tried black gold, your not going to do very well. the gap is less in multiplayer, but it is still true

[violet ledge]

When you say standard format, do you just mean what’s being used in the ranked ladder?

[fallen sequoia]

usually you're better off using the fools on devil, hermit or magician. Waiting for death can really slow down your game

not to mention death on cards without enhancements is just bad

if you find an early death you can use your first fool and hold it until a good target shows up though

[urban lark]

I would say the ranked game mode and how its usually played. ranked, standard tournaments, beans 10k, and pptt all use different banning systems and have different legal mods but they play the same game, none are playing smallworld or vanilla or something

[foggy plover]

They’re just saying that in tourneys like lcq people like me ban ghost zodiac etc

Oh eggnog said that whoops

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1426565427710005399/1469430665903607960/togif.gif

[foggy plover]

I love fooling judgement on gold

It’s so good

[kindred plover]

yeahh it cud give negative i never knew 😭

actual match saver

can it give like eternal and shi too??

[foggy plover]

It gives the next in joker queue

And removes the sticker

[kindred plover]

ohhh

[verbal cargo]

no it would suck so it does not give stickers

[foggy plover]

Which is too broken rn

We’re trying to fix it so it uses a separate queue

[smoky bobcat]

(This feels like a discussion for somewhere other than this thread)

[foggy plover]

Yes true, sorry

[kindred plover]

sorry sorry

[verbal cargo]

stake skill transfer sucks yeah, I kind of think of blue stake beyond as a diffirent thing than below blue

[smoky bobcat]

@round bison just added this as a feature! Thanks so much for the suggestion!

[round bison]

yep its sorted by stake ascending now :)

with deck sorting within each stake partition

[hollow trellis]

add spectral stake

[icy palm]

i got pinged?

[vague depot]

obv just my opinion but i feel like a combination of the old and new ban systems would be the right balance between randomness and choice, something like each player gets to ban one deck and stake before the random options are given, or each player picks a deck to be included in the randoms, something like that just so you don’t get stuck playing something you won’t have fun on

[smoky bobcat]

The second option there has been discussed here a lot, each player picking one deck/stake combo to include in the ban options.

[gleaming umbra]

But guys

What if it hits red stake

[urban lark]

i dislike this personally it feels like its going to encourage more ghost white

ig you could garauntee at least one low stake (white/green) and at least one high stake (purple/gold)

[old vigil]

Orange stake or nothing

[urban lark]

decks should still be completely random though

[mellow fable]

I do this on white btw

[foggy plover]

Yeah it’s good early

[old vigil]

On magic is tasty

[night needle]

I really terribly love this new ban system, It's rather lovely being able to play most of my games on decks i would never get to play and on stakes other than white!

[violet ledge]

if not playing ghost white matters so much to you, just ban it when someone picks it. If other people not playing it matters so much to you, why...

[old vigil]

We want ranked to be who is good at Balatro, not who is good at 4% of Balatro.
I don't know how much we need to reiterate this.

[violet ledge]

I've already said that statement makes zero sense. It has a couple of deeply flawed assumptions combined with extreme hyperbole that just renders it complete nonsense

[violet ledge]

would you say pro magic players aren't good at the entire game because they use less than 1% of available cards? Or high level players of a single character in a fighting game or moba?

I know that this is an area where mine and many others opinions' just differ from many of the admins, but stating your opinion over and over like absolute fact is a bit tiring

[old vigil]

So let's go slowly

[old vigil]

This isn't an opinion, is a direction we want to go

[violet ledge]

directions can be opinions

but go on

[old vigil]

Taking about other games is irrelevant as this is it's own game and community

[violet ledge]

That doesn't make sense to me. I'm not saying we have to align with any other games in particular or at all, but ignoring other successful and popular games would be a mistake if we want this community to provide the best experience for everyone

[old vigil]

We are TESTING something we feel is good for the overall environment of the game

[violet ledge]

I know, I appreciate that, and I'm providing feedback on that testing and directional opinion, as requested in this thread

[old vigil]

And I as such appreciate your feedback, but we already know you like playing ghost white, there's no need to push back in every instance of us telling people we want to move away from that

[violet ledge]

and I can see how you're trying to diminish my feedback on how playing a subset of stakes/decks doesn't mean you aren't "good at the game"

to "ghost white whiner"

which is sad, because it feels like its not being taken in good faith

[old vigil]

I'm not, I'm saying your feedback was already received

There is no need for you to push back on every instance, we already understand what you want

[violet ledge]

then please don't say things like "but we already know you like playing ghost white" since thats in no way my feedback at all, or relevant to it

and it just feels rude

[old vigil]

You are pushing back on every statement that goes against ghost white, I'm sorry if that is not your feedback but it sure feels that way

[violet ledge]

If someone's favorite setup was black stake painted deck then this change would also reduce that. I'm pushing back against reducing player choice, which you are dimishing as me just wanting to play more ghost white. That's why im politely asking you not to diminish it, because that's not my point at all

[old vigil]

Okay, so the deck stake combo doesn't matter. We feel like you shouldn't be able to avoid 8 decks and 2 stakes permanently. It doesnt matter if you always ban white green or purple gold, the idea is for people to experience more of the game when it comes to ranked

[violet ledge]

I think that's a much better way of putting it, and a more reasonable talking point

[old vigil]

You should still be able to play your favorite deck stake combo on other modes (after the testing)

[supple tendon]

They've been saying that the entire time 😹😹😹

[old vigil]

It has been put that way before btw

[violet ledge]

Sure but the 4% line is pinned and keeps getting referenced when it's both hyperbolically untrue and condescending

[tawdry cypress]

anyone who thinks the change is bad sucks

[supple tendon]

1/25 = 4% bud

It's just math :)

[old vigil]

I am inclined to agree with you that both staff and non staff should take it down a notch in some cases, there is no use in being rude neither if you are for the change nor against it

[old vigil]

Like this is something avoidable, just say you are for the change instead of dissing on people against it

[violet ledge]

and the 150+ jokers and dozens of planet, tarot, spectral cards just aren't a part of balatro? saying that decks and stakes make up 100% is silly and nonsensical

[tawdry cypress]

im trolling idc lol

[violet ledge]

oh i assumed they were just trolling lol

ye

[old vigil]

Yeah I know, but people have been saying comments close to that while being serious

[tawdry cypress]

I enjoy the change if it matters but not fussed either way

[old vigil]

Also trolling doesn't exactly help with the rift we have atm

[old vigil]

This is probably the best position to be on icl

[tawdry cypress]

fairs didnt read anything just rage baiting dont mind me

[supple tendon]

Of the possible ways you can play, yes this is exactly what we are saying. The jokers and such are a part that we are not controlling. They aren't the map, they're the seed, which we don't do anything with at all* (minus the order changing things but I digress)

We're trying to encourage people to play on more "maps" because that's how we see ranked should be played.

[violet ledge]

And if it said 4% of "maps" i would agree, or even 4% of deck/stake combos. I personally just think many of the decks/stakes are worse designed than others and lead to less enjoyable MP experiences which is why I am personally against the change

[old vigil]

I think you are nitpicking a bit on this one

[supple tendon]

And you very clearly voiced this and don't need to reiterate it every other message that is sent in here :) we got the feedback, thank you!

[violet ledge]

It's impressive to me that a purely singleplayer designed game converts to MP well at all, but I think certain stakes and decks show the weakness of the conversion

[old vigil]

And like again, you can still disregard the system and use the old one, or just bypass everything and agree with your opponent on deck stake combo

[old vigil]

I think they just test different skills

[violet ledge]

I also don't think that's a good point. The built in system is the one that will be used the majority of the time, is the fallback that players must use if they disagree, and as such has the most impact. This is a fine cover but the main system is still by far the most important one

[tawdry cypress]

I always feel like a dck rejecting opponents requests of deck/stakes

[violet ledge]

this and the idea that some decks/stakes have much higher variance/worse MP experience can both be true simultaneously. I don't disagree with you at all on this

[violet ledge]

I agree, social conventions and competitive things like ranked ladder don't always mix well

[old vigil]

Well see? This is a point I will never get. The most played combo on lower MMR brackets is Ghost White. Ghost is probably one of the most if not the most volatile/higher variance deck. There is no way we are saying we don't like variance and variance makes the experience worse and also having Ghost White as the most played combo.

Something there is contradictory

[old vigil]

As unfortunate as it is, that's a hurdle that is on you.

[violet ledge]

Not all variance is created equal, I think. I don't enjoy catan because the die roll creates huge variance, but I enjoy games that have shuffled decks of cards. I think people find spectral cards in shop variance more fun than jokers having editions or one fewer discard leading to much more bottomdecking

[violet ledge]

I think the admins should be considering that social agreement is not a consistent replacement for a built in system

[tawdry cypress]

Ye the system that is in place has to be used more than not otherwise its useless

[old vigil]

It's not meant to be a replacement, if we wanted people to not use the system we would not implement the system, no?

But if you absolutely detest the system, there are work arounds (that won't be comfortable as we want people using the system)

[marble nest]

Tbh as long as they make some concession for lower mmr players Im fine it’s very nice system for ranked

[old vigil]

I can assure you lower mmr brackets balancing is something we are thinking about how to approach

[smoky bobcat]

I can say that these have already been discussed in the staff server and will be changed tomorrow actually

[violet ledge]

I guess I’m saying “you can always agree to not use it” doesn’t mean anything to me, anything short of a button to click where both players vote to not use it may as well not even exist

[supple tendon]

I think it's already in the works :)

[tawdry cypress]

is there no veto system with the current format?

[marble nest]

No just a reroll

[old vigil]

Veto would defeat the entire purpose but there will be a pseudo replacement

[smoky bobcat]

We are doing something along the lines of guaranteeing 3 white stake options for stone players

[cosmic otter]

but even the reroll is if both players agree right?

[marble nest]

And by what I read yesterday against player choice I dont think they want a veto

[old vigil]

Yes

[tawdry cypress]

couldnt opponent guarantee ban all 3?

[smoky bobcat]

Yes.

[grizzled wadi]

For bo3s I think it would be cool that the person who looses gets to pick to reroll or not instead of both voting

[smoky bobcat]

“That way the stone player either gets a white stake game or gets full choice over the other 4 if the high ranker bans all white stakes”

[old vigil]

That is cool, I like it

[tawdry cypress]

I back it

[supple tendon]

In a bo3 the loser just chooses a pair they have not won on yet, you use the same set of pairs.

That is the intended function of a bo3/5 with this system

[old vigil]

I like rolling a bit more tbh

[grizzled wadi]

I like refreshing it and seeing more options

[old vigil]

Like having the option to roll I guess is what I'm thinking

[grizzled wadi]

Same

[cosmic otter]

rollling sound more fun ngl

[old vigil]

Or maybe not full roll, but 1 or 2?

[cosmic otter]

why not just give him more bans?

[supple tendon]

jeff and cas cry in the background

[cosmic otter]

like take a ban from winner and give it to loser

[old vigil]

The dev team is awesome and I know they make it work

But also, no need to do it lol

[tawdry cypress]

was there ever the idea to just make it random random full stop?

[supple tendon]

I was simply stating how the system is supposed to function.

The set of 7/9 is used for a full match.

[old vigil]

The idea? Yeah. The push back would be much more tho

[smoky bobcat]

That would be the best solution but would have the most complaining you’ll ever see

[foggy plover]

so question, why do you play the highest variance deck?

[violet ledge]

#1470480088926650378 message

[smoky bobcat]

I’d be for it if Plasma Deck didn’t exist, but that’s neither here nor there

[old vigil]

Same but nebula

[foggy plover]

i think that personally people who know more about the game realizing that the spectral cards in the shop is much more frustrating than not drawing

especially because theres ways to deal with that

[old vigil]

Also, I would love for cocktail to be included

[violet ledge]

couldn't read 3 words before drowning in condescension, can't type underwater rip

[supple tendon]

Cocktail is so hot

[foggy plover]

im just saying, most top players HATE ghost deck because of the variance

[grizzled wadi]

Ecto sucks wraith sucks anhk sucks arua sucks

[foggy plover]

literally

[grizzled wadi]

To many checks u will loose to

[old vigil]

Can we not make the rift between MMR brackets bigger?

[cyan tinsel]

i blocked an uncommon now i have 2 jokers before ankh andi nstantly lose

[violet ledge]

i've never seen a stone player being condescending

[old vigil]

I have

[violet ledge]

fair

[grizzled wadi]

I didnt use the 3rd arua on a glass card now I loose 😭

[old vigil]

So so so so so many

[foggy plover]

gg

yeah stone players tend to be worse because they know less

[tawdry cypress]

skill issue

[foggy plover]

also htown for one of the biggest haters of this

[violet ledge]

also nobody is forcing you to play ghost in either system, so this comes back to why do you care so much that other people enjoy playing it lol

[foggy plover]

you havent even used it

[violet ledge]

i love how my bmp profile is bookmarked on your homepage lol

living rent free

[foggy plover]

yeah i mean typing up hextown1001 takes a lot of work

[cyan tinsel]

nobody cares if people enjoy playing it just keep playing it lol

you can ask for whatever you want in queue

this is a better default for a ranked system

[violet ledge]

we talked earlier about how this doesn't work as a fallback, you can't count on social agreement in a competitive setting

[supple tendon]

99.9% of queues have people typing btw

[foggy plover]

but letting people play what they want is inheriently social

[cyan tinsel]

and this is a better basis for "competitive" balatro

[violet ledge]

yeah i type hello and glhf every queue, so what

[tawdry cypress]

its just bad coz low ranked player will ask for ghost white and as the higher ranked player you feel obliged to go along with it

[old vigil]

Not even saying hi on a queue might be one of the most tilting things

[smoky bobcat]

Screw them, just say no

[foggy plover]

could not care less about if john stone asks me to play ghost white

[smoky bobcat]

I’m here to have fun

[foggy plover]

in fact that was my last game

[tawdry cypress]

ye fair enough im just saying its defintely a consideration of people

[violet ledge]

Estra this is why social agreement is meaningless as a fallback

[grizzled wadi]

Its so cool when u talk with your opponet a lot when the game is over and talk the game through

[cyan tinsel]

if they didnt want to play that then they wouldnt play it anyway

[foggy plover]

htown, its because I dont have to agree to playing to THEIR preferences

[violet ledge]

yeah thats one of the best ways to improve imo

[old vigil]

I will always encourage interaction in a 2 player game

[foggy plover]

that would be like starting a game in league in all chat in champ select saying "please dont play yasuo i hate yasuo" and if they play yasuo then its meaningless

like ur forced to play things you dont like in competitive games

i hate breeze on valorant

i hate playing against breach

[cyan tinsel]

i cannot fathom the idea that people think a ranked version of balatro should allow people to avoid 40% of available stakes and ~50% of available decks

[vague depot]

i think having the deck and stake be individually selected would probably be more in spirit with the new ban system we’ll still giving some more control, then both players aren’t just trying to ban for there perfect pick, but you know that you’ll probably get at least one of the things you chose

[fringe cargo]

i like that it makes you play alot more decks and stakes then you would with the previous ones. i do also think it needs a change as sometimes you're forced into a deck or stake you realy dislike and/or suck at, i think maybe giving like 6 options for a deck and stake's then it would be improved

[foggy plover]

that is the point

the point is that you have to sometimes play things you arent comfortable with

[fringe cargo]

oh

yeah

[unique stag]

on this topic I pitched a concept that could generally alleviate the concerns players have with not getting to play the decks they want to

basically, you can set a favourite deck with a command, and when queuing, it'll either increase the likelihood of that deck being picked or just force it to be part of one of the options

that way, if two players who would favour a particular deck match into eachother, boom, it's there as an option

it might not always be white stake, sure, but gold stake in BMP is a great bit easier than in single player, and getting to play it on a deck you like at least would be a good stepping stone

[hushed mango]

stake should be a dice that rolls at the start of the match. Random pick but weighted slightly towards white and easier ones

[unique stag]

I disagree

some players naturally favour certain stakes, and that's a genuine skill set

[fringe cargo]

thats cool

[unique stag]

both rolling together isn't ideal but it at least gives some interesting decision making in the banning

do you take a deck you're weaker on, but your preferred stake, or vice versa?

and having it favour lower stakes would just worsen the gold problem honestly. because 1) you're even less familiar with it when it rolls, and 2) the players who actually like it won't get to play it as often

[unique stag]

I've always been an advocate for ditching the white stake defaultism

I don't think it should be replaced with gold stake defaultism per se but a big part of why people hate the meta is because of white stake

flat scalers are still kind of ass in gold but it's a lot harder to force builds and certain jokers you'd overlook on white become a lot more worthwhile

[fringe cargo]

I wouldnt say its a problem but with there mostly not being to many people queueing at once (i usually only see about 4, people queueing at a time) it would be very likely to have two people favor the same decks

Or stakes

[unique stag]

oh, sure, but that's not really a matching criteria

it's just convenient when two people happen to have the same one

if two players who both REALLY like painted deck, to the point they'd play it on any stake, match into eachother

well, boom, they get to play painted

both are happy

and at least having your favourite deck as an option on the list will feel a bit less bleak for newer players

as players develop their deck spread gets wider, to where it's only a few decks they won't play rather than ones they will, but that would also then encourage the weirder decks to get played more at the top too

[fringe cargo]

Oo i see

[unique stag]

someone like @cyan tinsel (who is very evil btw) could set its favourite as nebula deck and get to take people to it more

[fringe cargo]

(Why are they evil) also nebula is awesome (i think)

[unique stag]

estra is evil for many reasons

[fringe cargo]

Im thinking about soziac that i dont like

Zodiac*

[unique stag]

zodiac is a very hit or miss deck for people

it tends to be disfavoured towards the top due to its tendency to funnel into the meta builds even faster

[fringe cargo]

If it only had tarot or planet voucher i would like it more

[old vigil]

I can 100% see estra doing this and I don't enjoy that

[unique stag]

you can just ban it every time it appears to be fair lmao

the more decks and stakes you hate, the less choice in what you want to play you get

[old vigil]

Decks are easier to ban because they appear in max 2 combos and you get 3 bans

[unique stag]

ye

[old vigil]

Stakes on the other hand...

[unique stag]

hence the pitch I had would be pretty easy to counter by the opponent

if they hate your favourite, boom, they can ban it

to them it probably won't feel all that much different from a full random slate

[unique stag]

the design intention is to broaden stake variety

it's hard to fix a deck you don't like

but stakes mostly are just getting used to them

there's definitely still going to be cases where you HATE a stake and get punished hard for that

but stakes are a much more significant part of the game than decks

[old vigil]

Oh don't get me wrong, I really like the system the way it is (probably would go to 9)

[unique stag]

and competitive play should make you be adept at all stakes

[unique stag]

I think 9 is a decent benchmark, would probably see how it goes with a favourite deck system first maybe

[cyan tinsel]

its free wins nobody plays that deck right

[unique stag]

you can be the one who makes them

[mellow fable]

oh yeah if we do something like that it doesnt actually change anything because youre wasting a ban on my black gold

[unique stag]

it wouldn't be black gold

it'd be black ---

you'd only choose a favourite deck, not a stake on top of that

[mellow fable]

then youre still wasting a ban on black, and if both people want to play a normal deck then simply saying "zodiac?" in queue chat accomplishes the smaae

[unique stag]

well some people just do not talk to their opponents

even when prompted

you're wasting a ban on black when it turns up anyways without that system

it just feels better for the brain to have the chance to play something you like more often

and you wasting bans gives your opponent more control over the deck and stake

so it encourages you to patch up weak spots too

either way the main change would just be user-side, as in "ooh nice, my favourite deck's in the list"

I wouldn't even make it say what your opponent set as their choice

really the primary purpose would be easing in lower level and less high-stake confident players

gold on a deck you like is way less intimidating than gold on a deck you don't

[mellow fable]

I really dont think this changes anything

[unique stag]

not really, but think of it as a placebo

and it would be fairly impactful at lower levels anyways

the functional change would be rather minimal, and that's the point

it just means you're more likely to get your favourite deck, and hence more likely to play on it

and if everyone else hates your favourite deck, well, you just get to be up a ban

[old vigil]

Not me funneling my bans into ghost/zodiac white

I would honestly prefer banning a deck than forcing it to show on the pairs

[unique stag]

the problem is that shifts the reward away from the versatile player

it lets you dodge a deck with no punishment

[old vigil]

Kind of? Like the versatile player probably is more comfortable in most of the other 16 decks

[unique stag]

oh sure, but then it also leads to uncounterable target banning

[old vigil]

How so?

[unique stag]

you see Estra in queue

you set your ban to be Nebula

[old vigil]

I'm not queueing if I do

Estra has beaten me without counterplay too many times

[unique stag]

now that takes some initiative from Estra who would have otherwise been at an advantage if it rolls

[unique stag]

misses the point

[old vigil]

I know, sorry I was making a funny

[unique stag]

lmao nw

[old vigil]

Wasn't the time

[unique stag]

but yeah I think it just

takes a tool away from a versatile player

[old vigil]

But you can make it so you can only swap it once a day

Or something

[unique stag]

everyone can ban your favourite deck and all of a sudden you get no chance ever to play it

[unique stag]

that'd just be annoying for everyone else who isn't gaming the system

[foggy plover]

I took eternal family ante 1 on purple

Won me the game

Only used it one pvp 😭

[unique stag]

sometimes a deck pisses you off that much you just don't wanna play it again the rest of the session lmao

[old vigil]

Sure but also it wouldn't change without this right? If everyone hates my favorite deck so much they'll just use their bans on that

[unique stag]

but that's the part

they're using their bans

so you get the advantage

refusal to play something should put you at a disadvantage in my eyes

[old vigil]

I mean, I would honestly keep it like this but expand it so it's less chance to be all combos I don't like

[old vigil]

You can make it so you have less bans if you have a vetoed deck maybe

[unique stag]

I reckon making it 9 options and letting each player "nominate" a deck (by setting it as their favourite) would be a good balance

[old vigil]

I mean I really don't think it's an idea worth pursuing but fun to brainstorm

[unique stag]

you can force a deck you're always fine to take and if the other options suck, oh well, you have a fallback line

[unique stag]

that just does the same thing though

[grizzled wadi]

What happens if both players nominate the same deck?

[unique stag]

if it was the 9 decks with a forced drop, it'd just be two of the options

but different stakes

in a scenario where both players have Ghost as their favourite deck, because of the stake rolling, it'd still only mean a 25% droprate for Ghost White

on a practical level of averages, it wouldn't be very impactful

and you can always just ban what they nominate if you hate it

as you would if it appeared randomly

but from a user-end perspective, bam, your favourite deck is actually having a chance of being played

[cyan tinsel]

non staff cant see whos in queue

id know im not staff

[unique stag]

stream sniping

even just knowing if someone is playing at the time

[cyan tinsel]

ppl are gonna target ban their stuff anyway

[unique stag]

oh, sure, I just think having a preset ban that doesn't count towards your bans in queue is bad

as you don't get punished for annihilating a deck from the pool

and an opponent who enjoys it would have no chance of playing it ever

and it doesn't feel as good to never see something you don't like versus getting to see something you love more

guess it depends on the person but generally speaking, at least for lower level players, I imagine people would rather see their favourite deck a lot than not have to ban their least favourite

that definitely shifts as you rise in skill, but at that point you're also less likely to be annoyed at the other options

or at least not to nearly the same extent

[cyan tinsel]

id prefer a favorite to a ban

[unique stag]

aye

and the favourite is more malleable too

"hmm I feel like playing this deck today"

[cyan tinsel]

mainly because i have like 5 decks i can think of that id want to ban and its hard to decided

[unique stag]

yeah that too

[cyan tinsel]

let me ban 5 from appearing

i deserve it

red blue zodiac ghost yellow

[unique stag]

hard coding it so you can't ban ever again actually

it actually always picks blue white against you

[cyan tinsel]

evil woman

[unique stag]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-friend-friendship-muscle-fry-cook-games-gif-27500379

[cyan tinsel]

friends are stronger together

@gleaming umbra reference

[foggy axle]

black triple purple, triple gold

󠄀

[mellow fable]

my steak too juicy

[grizzled wadi]

Theres 3 of them I would really like to play and im a white stake merchent

[old vigil]

Blue black, Abandoned Purple and Plasma Gold seem playable

[unique stag]

ohhhhhhh my stakes too juicy my decks too buttery

[foggy axle]

we random random'd abandoned gold

[unique stag]

real shit

abandoned purple is a very honest pick in that list

ghost gold is the unpleasant gradient

[whole lion]

I keep seeing photographs of this man online

[unique stag]

yeah he does that

because he is evil

[mellow fable]

less than 1% of games btw

in case anyone was curious

[old vigil]

xD

[old vigil]

If you both didn't like it why not reroll?

[foggy axle]

no ive just been asking for RR to practice for pptt

[old vigil]

Oh makes sense

[foggy axle]

how curious how these low percent chances keep happening to me

[unique stag]

honestly valid

[mellow fable]

3 gold 3 purple is 1.75%, I dont think its ridiculous to ask you play one game of purple every 50

that said

w screenshot

[unique stag]

hall of famer screenshot

[foggy axle]

no I think its fine as well, just funny

[unique stag]

the juiciest steak of all time

anaglyph gold is fraudulent but can often lead to some utter fucking chicanery

[shut prism]

what i like about the previous system is that it gave the players more control of what they wanted to play, in my opinion

[unique stag]

in practice it was less about control of what you want to play

and just about what you don't

you could hit #1 in ranking by never having to touch gold stake or half of the decks

[shut prism]

yeah but after a long day of work i just wanna hop on my computer and play some white stake lol maybe thats just me though

[unique stag]

you can still play whatever you want if you agree on it with your opponent

[unique stag]

you can always hop on with some friends and do this

[shut prism]

true

[unique stag]

the new system is expanding the number of options actually on the table

[shut prism]

i dont have many friends that play pvp balatro, pretty niche game xD

[old vigil]

Please take it without the negative connotation, but that looks like what casual queue is supposed to be

[unique stag]

^^^

[old vigil]

You can always make friends in this community

[unique stag]

we're trying to encourage more diversity in ranked play

[shut prism]

I get that but casual queue is usually double or triple queue times for a match

[old vigil]

That is the beauty of having a community and interacting with people

[grizzled wadi]

I know so many people from this coummnity its awsome

[old vigil]

If multiple people feel like you they will default to casual queue and make it less wait time

[shut prism]

true, but thats also the beauty of have a great queue system

[unique stag]

the easiest way to get games is to pester friends to play

[shut prism]

like we do in the server

[unique stag]

really it's just an issue with ranked

[old vigil]

And if not it would mean that the system isn't that bad and we hit the nail on the head

[shut prism]

but yeah, just giving my two cents here not trying to be negative

[unique stag]

fair enough, that's what this is here for

the intention is to give more players the opportunity to play what they want to though

[old vigil]

I really liked the way you expressed your opinion for the record

[unique stag]

because if you're in the lower ranks, in the old system, your chances of getting to play gold were 0%

[old vigil]

There's so many cool people here

[unique stag]

so many games were ghost white, not because everyone wanted to play it all of the time, but because it was the most palatable neutral option for a lot of players

it's like how in smash bros everyone plays on PS2

[shut prism]

i agree, but you also gotta agree that the majority of people dont want to play gold stakes anyways

in low mmr at least

[grizzled wadi]

Gold is 1/5

[unique stag]

oh, sure, but in a ranked system, you kinda gotta get used to it

and even then there are seven options

the likelihood of at least one of them being white is rather high

and, if not, you can just ask if you want to random deck white stake

I'm sure at lower MMR ranges many opponents will agree

[shut prism]

yeah

seems to be kind of a divisive topic from what ive been seeing, hopefully we can reach a middle ground that everyone enjoys

[unique stag]

gold stake BMP is also far easier than gold stake single player

yeah, we just gotta try shit really

[shut prism]

yea its a lot more forgiving

[unique stag]

community tournaments are also moving to a random random system

so this version of ranked is also kinda preparing you for that even lmao

[shut prism]

is the ban system on casual the same as on ranked?

[cyan tinsel]

painted purple AND abandoned purple im so jealous

[old vigil]

At the moment we want to get as many people to try it as possible

Ngl the amount of games being consistently played seems to indicate the ban system is not that bad

[unique stag]

I reckon casual queue will end up with its own pick system

in casual queue you're also more likely to run into players who will just mutually decide deck stake anyway

[cyan tinsel]

ive seen way more positivity than negativity regarding it

[unique stag]

^^^

it's gonna be an adjustment for many players

[cyan tinsel]

its actually motivating me to play the game

[unique stag]

and some lobbies are gonna be "ah shucks I hate all of these"

[old vigil]

I think some people will need a bit of time to warm up to it

[cyan tinsel]

even estrakami infamous low stakes hater has to play green stake sometimes

[old vigil]

Oops all low stakes

[unique stag]

the unpleasant anaglyph purple at your door

[cyan tinsel]

in my first 3 games TWO of them had 3 white 3 green 1 black

[unique stag]

checks out

poor estrakami

[cyan tinsel]

its fine i won ✅

[unique stag]

you may be evil but you don't deserve green stake

real

[cyan tinsel]

that doesnt sound unpleasant

[unique stag]

it can be

[old vigil]

Regrettably I know of one that didn't

[cyan tinsel]

im skipping for orbital tag on two pair

[unique stag]

the anaglyph purple at your door has a present in a box

[cyan tinsel]

if its purple its fun

[midnight pine]

where is the feedback form?

[unique stag]

there is a small chance it has a landmine

[unique stag]

to my knowledge there isn't a form currently, but feel free to just share your thoughts in this thread

[cyan tinsel]

violet is pretty garbage

[old vigil]

At the moment no form, just dump it here

[unique stag]

something ever happens?

[cyan tinsel]

i still hate the deck

[unique stag]

i still hate your FACE

[cyan tinsel]

also i think this was vaguely what i proposed no

[unique stag]

nah but I get it lmao

[old vigil]

Buffs Bacon in pptt, no bueno

[cyan tinsel]

that was like 2 months ago

[grizzled wadi]

I love violet so I like seeing it be more playable on higher stakes

[unique stag]

several people have proposed it at several different times but nothing went anywhere

I was reminded of it being something we need to change and so ideally we can have it changed for next season

[cyan tinsel]

make it so it has zero vouchers instead 👍

[unique stag]

no vouchers drawback could be funny but the deck concept would have to be very very interesting

since vouchers add flavour

[cyan tinsel]

maybe -1 consumable slot

seems like a pretty fun drawback

then maybe you could start with a really powerful voucher

[unique stag]

we're reinventing the wheel here

[cyan tinsel]

like telescope

[unique stag]

woah that's new

so cool...

[gleaming umbra]

/ref??

[gleaming umbra]

???

Insane coming from you

[unique stag]

you've never seen what I look like

[cyan tinsel]

almost had a monkeygif moment

[unique stag]

restraint in public

[gleaming umbra]

Yes I have

You turned your camera on once

[unique stag]

oh yeah I think I did

[gleaming umbra]

You look like [monkey gif]

[unique stag]

but you were probably eating mcdonalds or something

not paying attention

insert monkeygif insults here

[gleaming umbra]

???

Oh I paid attention

[unique stag]

to your big mac

[gleaming umbra]

Nope

Not quite

[chrome oriole]

ban this ban system

[thin spindle]

So having used it a bit now... it does let players pretty much avoid white stake if they want. Not sure that was intended

I guess before they could force black

idk

[smoky bobcat]

Some of the prominent complaints we got beforehand were “I don’t like black stake I wanna play white” and “I don’t like black stake I wanna play gold”. Black as the fallback was also getting stale

[old vigil]

Surely we have a better way to verbalize our complaints

[onyx basin]

system this system ban

[supple tendon]

It is exactly intended. You can avoid any 1 stake if you so choose.

[urban lark]

green isnt that different from white it doesnt matter if you can completely avoid white

[urban lark]

thats because white stake merchants arent used to playing anything else

it takes all of 45 mins of playing to adjust

[foggy axle]

I think green stake ante 2 small blind has taken the most lives from me

[violet ledge]

The endless condescension never gets old