without judge...
#Neutral Evil Overhaul
valid quest
gentle pecan
are you reading
valid quest
wait no judge wouldn't matter
gentle pecan
attacks against them become unstoppable and astral
valid quest
im going to bed it's 3am
gentle pecan
another thing was
if they learn who is doomed or whatever
it would be kinda strong
by they i mean every evil
still bramble
@cloud monolith Let me entertain you for another minute. The other main problem is unlike having to guess a town member's exact role or neutral's subalignment, you just have to guess Coven/Apoc as Coven/Apoc making it way easier to guess them.
still bramble
Doomsayer on paper was a good solution to VFR, but it had many major flaws that make it probably even more unhealthy than ToS2 Executioner.
strong torrent
they are all toxic anti-everyone roles
and it's easier to win by defeating evils as Doomsayer
you might as well just call it a town role
gentle pecan
Doomsayer on paper was a good solution to VFR, but it had many *major* flaws tha...
they also didn’t care about how it felt to play them
still bramble
The sole fact Coven/Apoc was much easier to guess indirectly made Doomsayer very town sided in most circumstances
And it only swings against town if people are confirmed quickly, and they don't die too quickly either.
If Doomsayer had to guess Coven/Apoc subalignment, then maybe it would've made some difference. It still wouldn't affect the possible swing however. But it would at least make it less braindead against evils.
knotty glacier
i love pinpointing exactly when someone has realized they're losing an argument by when their points start just becoming attacking the other party
gentle pecan
(if I had to guess it’d be both)
rigid mist
Doomsayer on paper was a good solution to VFR, but it had many *major* flaws tha...
the problem is the punishment
im fine with nes being anti everyone but their punishments should HARM town and HINDER evils
and in 99% of cases it should do both if needed be
dawn meadow
Worded it prefectly ne politician
still bramble
Would it be healthier if Neutral Evils didn't have any kill power (no haunt, no plunder, no vanquish)?
cyan geode
The issue with that is
Town needs to play around them
And the only ways to make Town scared enough of an evil that they have to play around its existence is if that evil somehow makes them lose the game if they don’t
Most evils handle that by literally making Town lose
But NEs don’t, they can win with Town (meaning they aren’t incentivized to make Town lose) and Town isn’t required to kill them
So kill power is required to make anti-everyone NEs a threat.
Unless you do something similarly harmful to Town like super-roleblocking all Townies or removing Town’s ability to vote on trials
exotic skiff
Jester super roleblock is honestly a better take
cloud monolith
exotic skiff
real
Townies would need to plan in advance who innos if they have the threat of a roleblock
and book holder should be immune
plus any nk, it will just silently fail
and berserker
gentle pecan
so just roleblock all townies who guiltied
its wincon is still toxic though
town shouldnt be punished for lynching an evil
exotic skiff
They aren’t being punished, their reward is lynching an evil
If they don’t want the drawback they play around it
It can still be a net positive in this instance
foggy star
i mean they are being punished
super roleblock essentially means all coven and nk get a near guaranteed kill since tp and town disruptors are out of the question and ti get no information that night
exotic skiff
They should inno if they are so important
But the jester who isn’t going to help town is gone now
at the cost of like 1 townie?
2?
That’s still bad but that would happen anyways for hanging the NE
gentle pecan
They should inno if they are so important
so every townie has to play in fear of jester making them lose a night
flat out dying would be better for town
exotic skiff
It makes Jester more consistent
This isn’t the end all solution or anything but like I said earlier, Jester at its core isn’t going anywhere
gentle pecan
still a rotten to the core role
exotic skiff
It’s a basic party role and people are going to be upset if they remove it for the 6 competitive TAA players
gentle pecan
so I should ignore roles I have to deal with in any common neutral / random neutral slots
just because party roles
💀
exotic skiff
wtf my message won’t send lmao?
what did i say LOL
common neutral is a problem in itself
since doom vs neutral pariah
gentle pecan
(im looking to eliminate cn swing as well)
this makes sure the common neutral hates town and benefits evil
is your internet okay
foggy star
It’s a basic party role and people are going to be upset if they remove it for t...
party roles shouldnt be in normal gamemodes then
or whatever you define as a “party role”
exotic skiff
gentle pecan
party roles shouldnt be in normal gamemodes then
(or flat out alignmentless)
so they cant spawn unless whitelisted
gentle pecan
Ranked season 2 has ne in vanilla lmao
it still has neutral evil
exotic skiff
But i get to play gray deputy
foggy star
yeah but if jest is a “party role” it shouldnt be in something like ranked
gentle pecan
post win of executioner sucks
foggy star
(or all any for that matter)
exotic skiff
I always torment evils too
foggy star
but preferably we fix the role so it can be used in normal gamemodes
exotic skiff
Unless they are neutral
foggy star
instead of brushing it aside as a nonissue
exotic skiff
Neutrals stick together
foggy star
I always torment evils too
this is the problem with nes defined in one sentence 😭
someone said it here earlier
exotic skiff
this is the problem with nes defined in one sentence 😭
yep
gentle pecan
instead of brushing it aside as a nonissue
exactly why i have made like 3 posts about pirate
foggy star
its less anti everyone more anti the-person-i-want-to-fuck-over
foggy star
exactly why i have made like 3 posts about pirate
there must have been like
hundred or so posts about pirate by now
and changing unstoppable to powerful is all we get offered
gentle pecan
probably more
foggy star
kinda sad
foggy star
bandage on an amputated leg
(dont worry guys, potion master is now a hard counter to pirate! now its balanced!)
gentle pecan
ok so anyways i might re - do neutral evil again (yay) and make them (atleast try to) anti everyone that harms town and hinders evils
since thats the main complaint
exotic skiff
(dont worry guys, potion master is now a hard counter to pirate! now its balance...
also now the pirate is even more pro town as it confirms the trickster too!
gentle pecan
also now the pirate is even more pro town as it confirms the trickster too!
yeah
its dumb
foggy star
ok so anyways i might re - do neutral evil again (yay) and make them (atleast tr...
i think this alternative would be better in all honesty but i guess it wont hurt to attempt?
i still have heavy doubts about anti everyone working
foggy star
i know not everyone who dislikes this has this exact thought process but i feel like most of the backlash genuinely doesnt really come from a place of objective balance for the game
like people wont want jester to change cause its jester
gentle pecan
yeah
foggy star
and jester is “fun” to play
gentle pecan
thats one of the problems
gentle pecan
and jester is “fun” to play
id rather play dreamweaver
ive had great dreamweaver games
foggy star
solo dreamweaver 😭
exotic skiff
I don’t like jester but it’s pretty much a content creator’s golden role
foggy star
solo dreamweaver gets to fulfil its destiny as a booksponge
gentle pecan
@exotic skiff since you’re here can you give me an overview of why you dont like this
since i forgot
foggy star
I don’t like jester but it’s pretty much a content creator’s golden role
yeah this too
exotic skiff
I don’t like the execution
gentle pecan
what about the execution
gentle pecan
It’s an NP called jester
that is what an overhaul is
exotic skiff
or NE soul collector i suppose
gentle pecan
reusing assets since deleting them is no longer an option
so you don’t like how they’re pariah lite?
exotic skiff
Default silhouettes exist
gentle pecan
NEs aren’t really NPs
(overhauling them to change their identity to be like them)
if you don’t like that its fine
exotic skiff
They are however the worst bucket imo
The concept of winning with everyone is too much of a gameplay philosophy focus
gentle pecan
they have to reach a certain goal that town shouldnt want
exotic skiff
NEs should either all be like current exe and be anti-town or all pure neutral
gentle pecan
current executioner is pariah lite
exotic skiff
You want anti-town which is fine
foggy star
its very hard to make it pure unadulterated neutral
gentle pecan
i just expanded on executioner
foggy star
i guess thats what they tried to do with inq?
foggy star
i believe these are still distinct enough from np in order to justify them being in their own bucket
and they bring their own utility that cant be compact all into a few np roles
exotic skiff
its very hard to make it pure unadulterated neutral
Neutrals just want to win, pirate and CS are glorified NEs, jester exe are the only two that consistently punishes townies
foggy star
role flips for jest marking death for inq etc
exotic skiff
The rest just do their job and can end up helping town
gentle pecan
role flips for jest marking death for inq etc
i could have just reused the same thing
of marked for death
exotic skiff
or hurting town
foggy star
Neutrals just want to win, pirate and CS are glorified NEs, jester exe are the o...
the problem with that is just that unlike nk who need to survive until the end
ne get to leave early
so they dont give a fuck about who they decide to fuck over
gentle pecan
yeah
foggy star
(most of the time its coven since coven ultimately takes a harder blow from any ne then town)
exotic skiff
Also why does NE have old NP win con
gentle pecan
Also why does NE have old NP win con
making them more user friendly
it sucks if town isnt falling for you
exotic skiff
Then they can just be NP
gentle pecan
pariah dont leave on day 3 in balanced lists
foggy star
but slotting these in np wouldnt work
exotic skiff
it sucks if town isnt falling for you
That only applies to exe in this case which is kinda an oh well moment
gentle pecan
That only applies to exe in this case which is kinda an oh well moment
doomsayer
jester
inquisitor with protected targets
exotic skiff
Your jester doesn’t have the same issue
So your suggestion is an unearned win for being unlucky?
gentle pecan
jester can just be unable to reach its goal if no one ever checks its targets
it additionally gets incentivized to help evils
foggy star
tbh
gentle pecan
and not stall
foggy star
the np wincon will always be unearned wins alot of the time
np can die like n1 and still win if evils hard carry
gentle pecan
the np wincon will always be unearned wins alot of the time
if the pariah dies n1 they still win
yeah
foggy star
cant really do much about that
exotic skiff
Pariah in a lot of lists are just a glorified teammate
gentle pecan
Pariah in a lot of lists are just a glorified teammate
thats what they are
non meeting mafia
gentle pecan
Undeserved losses are also a thing
thats mostly a blitz issue
foggy star
yeah
foggy star
when the game is full of vigilantes and clerics or rits and vmers any loss can feel undeserved
doesnt mean they should be
but thats how it is currently
gentle pecan
killpower issue
exotic skiff
I think we basically only discovered that the game is broken lol
gentle pecan
(this also reduces some killpower, surprise surprise)
gentle pecan
this game has great potential
its pretty much the only in its market
exotic skiff
Yeah but nobody is happy with what it has ever
foggy star
yeah
gentle pecan
i tend to overcomplain but its still very annoying to play
i had a game the other day
town lost day two
before the trials begun
exotic skiff
Yeah I 100% agree but my point earlier is just to not use roles outside of faction v faction modes
foggy star
faction vs faction is very necessary for this game to be healthy i believe
town vs coven is much better then like
town vs coven vs apoc vs jackal
gentle pecan
3rd parties should only be neutral killing
foggy star
but i mean
exotic skiff
In JR it’s meant to be casual SD so Jester existing is whatever
gentle pecan
or neut special if the rolelist calls for it
foggy star
if people want the option to sure
gentle pecan
yeah
foggy star
faction vs faction is very necessary for this game to be healthy i believe
this is also a major factor as to why i think apoc shouldnt really
be a faction
it just doesnt really work as one
gentle pecan
this is also a major factor as to why i think apoc shouldnt really
i am in the works of overhauling it
exotic skiff
Apoc can work as a faction it’s just not been reworked enough
gentle pecan
(its probably going to be next monday)
exotic skiff
It’s balanced enough but it’s a lot of luck
foggy star
itd need an overhaul to do so
foggy star
i am in the works of overhauling it
sweet
exotic skiff
Like that Tuba stream where he bussed the warlock as baker was not counterable
foggy star
make apoc mutually exclusive give them nk detection immunity and make them anti stall and i believe itd work well
valid quest
anti stall?
wouldn't apoc be pro-stall?
being late-game threats?
well othe than bers ig
exotic skiff
Like that Tuba stream where he bussed the warlock as baker was not counterable
actually it was but it’s a guessing game is my point
gentle pecan
make apoc mutually exclusive give them nk detection immunity and make them anti ...
#1312499574983884952
not the best but its half of my apoc overhaul
foggy star
being incredibly powerful late game threats in order to prevent town stalling out
i guess
gentle pecan
pb is somehow overpowered there
foggy star
oh yeah i saw this
im not all too sure about the pb one? i do think it should have some alternative means of infection to keep its identity as one of the objectively faster apocs in terms of transformation
i think one idea i had was literally as simple as just day infections
it feels bandaid-y
but i think itll help plaguebearer achieve that identity it wants
foggy star
neutral estrogen
valid quest
true...
gentle pecan
real
foggy star
im not sure how id fix up apoc to be solo since im not too confident in role designing
i do write up concepts but thats like it
all i did i think was just allow astral visitors to spread plague and give it day infections
gentle pecan
im not sure how id fix up apoc to be solo since im not too confident in role des...
what you make cant be any worse than what other people post
like theres no way it can be worse than resuggesting survivor, right
gentle pecan
foggy star
to be fair i think for my role suggestions i tried to build alot of the game up from scratch again
gentle pecan
i am in the works of overhauling it
role concepts is like the only thing i need
foggy star
and theyre like
gentle pecan
since im making them unique from coven
foggy star
very different from current tos2 or btos2
foggy star
role concepts is like the only thing i need
are you making factional apoc with like
one horseman?
foggy star
ok yeah that makes sense
gentle pecan
foggy star
i think that can work if its mutually exclusive to coven
gentle pecan
the hard part is just trying to make it stand out enough from coven
the intention is to make them start weaker then ramp up in power as the game goes
foggy star
thatd work cause especially one of the criticisms people have when it comes to reworking factional apoc is just
“well reskinned coven wouldnt be fun”
and theyre right
gentle pecan
yeah
foggy star
but its kinda difficult to make them otherwise without taking some major leaps
it can definitely work out though if theyre just distinct enough but still work as a functional faction (not current apoc)
soft halo
"Executioner needs to be more punishing for evils"
- Sir your goal is mislynching a Townie. Why should evils be punished for hanging a townie
foggy star
oh yeah @gentle pecan
i made a flavour for the night time trial jailor
do you want me to dm it to you for feedback
soft halo
Also, Jester is already more punishing for evils than town, so no, it doesn't.
gentle pecan
sure
exotic skiff
Also, Jester is already more punishing for evils than town, so no, it doesn't.
If a Jester haunts anyone not within that evil’s faction, the Jester is outright helpful.
soft halo
If a Jester haunts anyone not within that evil’s faction, the Jester is outright...
If a Jester haunts an evil, that's anywhere from 25 to 100% of your shit gone.
If a Jester haunts a town that's not TPOW or Seer, it's meh unless you were already just one away from losing
It's not debatable that Jester hurts evils significantly more if he is deigned to pick one. Needs a rework, and this is one potential option
foggy star
town will always buff it out due to sheer numbers
soft halo
^
foggy star
which is why ne is especially disastrous on evils
soft halo
Imagine punishing evils for pushing a mislynch, and that punishment is anywhere from "25% of your team just gets wiped" or even "You lose".
exotic skiff
The list is usually tight enough where one kill or mislynch is a town loss
Unless its apoc or tt where jester IS actively helpful
exotic skiff
a whole 8-10 townies on average
and you lose 1
it’s not super significant but it’s still a factor
gilded briar
The list is usually tight enough where one kill or mislynch is a town loss
The problem is like
Killing the jester... also removes a scumsided vote?
Like let's do the math here
On day 2, assuming a n1 kill, we're left with 9v5
gilded briar
If you hang a townie and then coven kills a townie n2 you're down to 7v5
If you hang the jester and then both coven and jester kill town you're down to... 7v4?
half lava
Wouldn't the solution would be to rework jester. Since jester is afk then insta kill someone. The role itself is braindead.
gilded briar
Town has a numerical advantage for killing the jester???
gilded briar
Town has a numerical advantage for killing the jester???
I dont think this has actually hit me until now
You are literally better off killing a jester than a mislynch. This role does not function as intended. Holy shit
😭
knotty glacier
what is wrong here?
free bigcrosser they did nothing wrong
soft halo
Jester, Pirate, and in many cases Doomsayer were just free food for Town.
half lava
I think jester is a low effort role since town can't just ignore you since you could be a actual evil and you gotta do nothing to win.
It stands out so much compare to every other NE.
Executioner: Push your target to get then lynched.
Doom: Guess 3 roles. You gotta watch whispers, their alignments who they were visiting. Unless you get lucky with people open claiming.
Inquisitor: Find 3 specific people and kill them. Same as doom but you can atleast check
soft halo
Town doesn't ignore you because you risk stubbing your toe to kill your enemy
It's gambling
foggy star
I dont think this has actually hit me until now
You are literally better off ki...
this role was genetically engineered to have one of the most infuriatingly terrible concept and executions ever
soft halo
And it's free
half lava
I think keeping NE anti everything works it's jester that ruins it
foggy star
free bigcrosser they did nothing wrong
@Mods FREE ME i didnt do nothing wrong
foggy star
im being censored the public doesnt want the truth about jester and veteran
gilded briar
Nineteen-eighty four
knotty glacier
"jest here siding town hang me d2 and i'll hunt evils"
gonna try this bait next time i get vet
foggy star
you wanna know what my strat is when i get jester
soft halo
I think keeping NE anti everything works it's jester that ruins it
It doesn't really work, no.
Executioner may be a bit harsh, but it works. Inquisitor needs a few tweaks but it's great. Doomsayer doesn't work (Tuba had an idea for this but some people didn't like this), and Jester doesn't work.
So, you don't want half the NEs just completely destroying evils for free and then dipping.
knotty glacier
i like actually having fun when i play
so i claim tpow and wait for someone to notice i haven't done fucking anything
foggy star
lmfao
knotty glacier
usually i claim monarch, whisper a tpow claim saying "heh. prepare to get knighted" and then claim roleblocked
foggy star
i usually just wait for vfa and dont do anything cause yeah its such a boring and shit strategy
but like
knotty glacier
it gets you out of the game quicker
foggy star
i might aswell take the free win
knotty glacier
lets you move on to an actual role
half lava
Don't you gotta wait till game is over to get the win?
Jester might be better if it was part of game rules to actually have to try instead of afking for the win
gilded briar
Jester unironically is also a scourge on the game rules
stoic igloo
Jest having the option of whether it helps town or not at all is problematic
Like it or not, that makes it a kingmaker
gilded briar
Jester unironically is also a scourge on the game rules
Because now pretending to break them is a legitimate strat and thats so icky
soft halo
A lot of people think "It's not kingmaking if it happens day 3"
gilded briar
Well. Can't pretend to cheat. But yeah
knotty glacier
Don't you gotta wait till game is over to get the win?
nope. if a NE wins and leaves town, you can disconnect and still get the win
gentle pecan
Jester might be better if it was part of game rules to actually have to try inst...
if you have to do that because jester is a poorly designed role
why just not
fix said poorly designed role
gilded briar
Jackal
gentle pecan
jackal is whatever
half lava
I said that up some more but if not reworking it was not a option (for some reason)
knotty glacier
given jackal is only in btos2 which is smaller and has a tighter knit community, it having gentlemen's rules is more forgivable
half lava
But jester is just the og trickster. A completely skillfull role
stoic igloo
fix said poorly designed role
Because BMG was allergic to any change that didn’t increase the casual appeal of their game by at least 5%
gentle pecan
Because BMG was allergic to any change that didn’t increase the casual appeal of...
yeah
which is why we have 90% of our problems here
knotty glacier
But jester is just the og trickster. A completely skillfull role
"skillful" ah yes. silence. my favorite skill.
gentle pecan
“oh cool flashy button to kill a player”
half lava
"skillful" ah yes. silence. my favorite skill.
So much skill
stoic igloo
which is why we have 90% of our problems here
Hopefully DB doesn’t follow in their footsteps
gentle pecan
Hopefully DB doesn’t follow in their footsteps
im not very confident they wont be like that
stoic igloo
My hopes aren’t high
But I’ll take anything over BMG
stoic igloo
im not very confident they wont be like that
Me neither
knotty glacier
i'm sorry you feel that way
half lava
But anyway this poor persons suggestion just turned into a "jester sucks" thread.
gilded briar
In fairness it is a neutral evil thread
gentle pecan
i don’t really mind
knotty glacier
But anyway this poor persons suggestion just turned into a "jester sucks" thread...
it's lagspikes. he'll argue against jester any day
gentle pecan
its neut evil yeah
stoic igloo
But anyway this poor persons suggestion just turned into a "jester sucks" thread...
Jester should just stop sucking
gentle pecan
it's lagspikes. he'll argue against jester any day
you know me so well
stoic igloo
Solves all our problems
knotty glacier
cyan geode
Yeah the entire thing is some people don’t want to change NE
So they have to justify why Jester is fine
stoic igloo
Yeah the entire thing is some people don’t want to change NE
NEs are the ultimate casual appeal
cyan geode
And we have to explain why it isn’t
gentle pecan
Yeah the entire thing is some people don’t want to change NE
i think thats why all the dislikes on this post are here
knotty glacier
So they have to justify why Jester is fine
they have to jesterfy it
stoic igloo
So they have to justify why Jester is fine
I legitimately have not seen any valid arguments for this viewpoint
cyan geode
The main ones I’ve seen are “skill issue” and “just ban it from Ranked”
stoic igloo
The hardest most people try is “it’s fun” (it’s not) or “it makes town have to think harder about lynches” (it doesn’t)
foggy star
Like it or not, that makes it a kingmaker
nes kinda just feel like kingmakers wrapped up in a nice coat of paint as a whole
gentle pecan
The main ones I’ve seen are “skill issue” and “just ban it from Ranked”
or that “its completely fine”
cyan geode
or that “its completely fine”
The “it’s completely fine” one is skill issue
half lava
I legitimately have not seen any valid arguments for this viewpoint
I think the idea of jest is cool it's just not implemented well
gentle pecan
nes kinda just feel like kingmakers wrapped up in a nice coat of paint as a whol...
a good way to describe it
knotty glacier
it's like that one guy who was trying to claim that vanilla executioner is better than modded because "punishing town for lynching coven is a good thing actually"
gentle pecan
it's like that one guy who was trying to claim that vanilla executioner is bette...
spinning skeleton
cyan geode
Because it fits the anti-everyone model better, was what they said
cobalt ether
Neutral Evil is quite hard to change cause you either A: Make Neutral Evil less oppressive but still suck or B: Neutral Pariah Core
stoic igloo
The main ones I’ve seen are “skill issue” and “just ban it from Ranked”
“Just ban it from ranked” = “I view you as a filthy sweat that’s trying to ruin my AA fun and thus I’m dismissing your argument in favor of me continuing to fool around in chaos gamemodes”
knotty glacier
spinning skeleton
foggy star
The main ones I’ve seen are “skill issue” and “just ban it from Ranked”
"skill issue" is ironic when jester is THE 0 skill role
gentle pecan
https://tenor.com/view/spinning-skeleton-skeleton-spin-spinning-wheel-gif-110839...
i feel complete with this
foggy star
lmaooo
gentle pecan
thank you
knotty glacier
cyan geode
“Just ban it from ranked” = “I view you as a filthy sweat that’s trying to ruin ...
I absolutely am a filthy sweat I don’t think AA should be seen as just a meme mode
Fuckin sue me
knotty glacier
ranked AA
stoic igloo
it's like that one guy who was trying to claim that vanilla executioner is bette...
I want to see this argument
half lava
But honestly after rereading this post I think making NE anti town would be a good idea.
We already got rework exe as anti town and inq is usually anti town most games I see.
knotty glacier
gentle pecan
oh i remember one being in this very thread
foggy star
jesus
knotty glacier
this guy had all sorts of fun things to say about why vanilla executioner is totally fine actually
gilded briar
Anyway uh
Yeah neutrals have casual appeal
The problem is designing an actually competent neutral that does not have "Ensure town loses" or a variation of such as a win condition is a lot harder than it sounds
gilded briar
Anyway uh
Yeah neutrals have casual appeal
The problem is designing an actually...
(And designing NPs is just. Designing scum)
foggy star
so blunt about it too
gilded briar
so blunt about it too
Its a concise clear opinion I suppose
foggy star
yeah
cyan geode
Anyway uh
Yeah neutrals have casual appeal
The problem is designing an actually...
And that’s because an esoteric win condition doesn’t make the player care about the game’s outcome
So they will just side with whoever they want
Or whoever is more convenient
It’s massive impact swing
knotty glacier
yes we SHOULD punish town for doing their job
they were kind of spitting actually
rigid mist
If a Jester haunts anyone not within that evil’s faction, the Jester is outright...
not really
gilded briar
I also am of the opinion that most things you can do with neutrals you can do better with other roles
knotty glacier
Or whoever is more convenient
making a role that will side with whoever has majority. in a game where town starts with majority. you're making a town role.
rigid mist
its actually more beneficial to keep jest alive when you're evil until you get maj
cause they're never gonna vote with the winning team cause they still need to win
same goes for pirate
gentle pecan
its actually more beneficial to keep jest alive when you're evil until you get m...
because its an evil vote
rigid mist
because its an evil vote
exactly
gentle pecan
if you guarantee its win at the end
knotty glacier
making a role that will side with whoever has majority. in a game where town sta...
who pied this rat
rigid mist
at the end of the day if a jester can win with the evils by just not voting
thats what theyre gonna do
i dont like making NE into NP 2.0
i think the anti everyone can work but as i already said it needs to harm town and hinder evils
knotty glacier
there's also the argument of "ohhh town should just kill the jester another way" despite the fact that that almost never works
gentle pecan
i dont like making NE into NP 2.0
wasn’t a fan of it but I don’t really think anti everyone NE works imo
rigid mist
there's also the argument of "ohhh town should just kill the jester another way"...
literally every ex way to kill a jester is either getting asked to get nerfed
or is actively bad for town
foggy star
there's also the argument of "ohhh town should just kill the jester another way"...
then you ask them "what if your tk is vet or trick" then they go radio silent
gentle pecan
then you ask them "what if your tk is vet or trick" then they go radio silent
what if tk is dead
then what
foggy star
exactly
cyan geode
What if it’s AA and TK never spawned
gilded briar
What if your TK is vigilante and the jester vests
gentle pecan
What if it’s AA and TK never spawned
true
gilded briar
foggy star
sorry i guess you need to deal with this jester now
gentle pecan
What if your TK is vigilante and the jester vests
put another cap in their skull
rigid mist
or if your tk has already used their ability
foggy star
or hang it and kill one of your tpows
rigid mist
cough cough deputy
knotty glacier
"what if your tk is vet or trick"
skill issue
"what if your vigi/jailor has other things to worry about like the actual evils"
skill issue
"what if you're in a chaos mode and you get no TKs"
skill issue
gilded briar
I love wasting 2 bullets on a jester
rigid mist
"what if your tk is vet or trick"
skill issue
"what if your vigi/jailor has othe...
i hope this is sarcasm
foggy star
it is
knotty glacier
i hope this is sarcasm
i'm not supporting the skill issue argument obv
gentle pecan
i hope this is sarcasm
this is quoting
rigid mist
you can never tell anyone in this discord
gentle pecan
the other argument
cyan geode
Poe’s law
gentle pecan
interesting
to say the least
knotty glacier
i have been arguing against jester this entire time
rigid mist
Anyway uh
Yeah neutrals have casual appeal
The problem is designing an actually...
if all the NE's aftereffects fucked over town immensely and gave the evils a slap to the face in comparison
it'd be better
foggy star
pretty sure
knotty glacier
you can't expect jailor or vigi to divert all of their attention to the jester when you have coven as well as potential apocs and NKs running around who are more important
gentle pecan
you can't expect jailor or vigi to divert all of their attention to the jester w...
well if you dont it just condenses there as an evil vote
rigid mist
you can't expect jailor or vigi to divert all of their attention to the jester w...
this is why i said or you have roles who DONT want to waste their abilities on them
rigid mist
well if you dont it just condenses there as an evil vote
what if you physically cannot
if the jester vests and ur vigi
you just wasted a bullet for nothing
gentle pecan
what if you physically cannot
in instances for jailor
rigid mist
you could've used that for an ACTUAL evil but now you're a half baked vigilante
jailor also kinda just wastes time
gentle pecan
yeah
rigid mist
you have the potential to stop a kill + kill an evil
gentle pecan
jailor is too much of a powerhouse to put to waste
rigid mist
...or kill the useless non visiting evil
foggy star
and dont forget
gentle pecan
yeah
knotty glacier
guys it's fine just get the SK to kill the jester trust 
foggy star
when the pros diverts their attention on the jester running rampant
gilded briar
guys it's fine just get the SK to kill the jester trust <:real:12252215071486771...
Surely the blue vigilante will comply
wild hill
if all the NE's aftereffects fucked over town immensely and gave the evils a sla...
as long as it does both of these at the same time I agree
Inq does this well as long as it has 2 town targets and one factional evil
Something like vanilla exe ends up only doing one or the other, and the "slap" for coven is too big
knotty glacier
when the pros diverts their attention on the jester running rampant
it's for the achievement trust
rigid mist
when the pros diverts their attention on the jester running rampant
with a good jester
rigid mist
you will never be able to tell
rigid mist
as long as it does both of these at the same time I agree
Inq does this well as ...
#1302754367459295483
inquisitor also needs a fix
it shouldn't kill evils
no NE should kill another evil when they are literally inherently evil
gentle pecan
inquisitor also needs a fix
i don’t think inquis should have killpower
rigid mist
else we get neutral special chaos fun role 2.0
gentle pecan
or any neutral evil for that case
knotty glacier
when your jester bluff works too well and you get knighted:
gilded briar
i don’t think inquis should have killpower
Inquis doesn't work well without KP unfort
rigid mist
none of my NE reworks have direct KPN except inquisitor
rigid mist
yay neutral chaos
neutral evil in a trenchcoat
knotty glacier
Inquis doesn't work well without KP unfort
and now... shitty executioner
rigid mist
and now... shitty executioner
mhm
foggy star
i love throwing roles into other buckets as a way to not include them in base game cause theyre so shittily designed
gilded briar
Gone from shitty anticlaim to shitty exe
Wonderful
rigid mist
people like that shitty ass role
knotty glacier
guys let's just put vanilla admirer into town special that'll work
rigid mist
but people ALSO hate it
like a LOT of people hate it
you cannot please either side without a rework
foggy star
people like that shitty ass role
this is also the jester dilemma
gentle pecan
like a LOT of people hate it
unfortunately curtis doesnt hate it
foggy star
people fucking
gentle pecan
😔
foggy star
LOVE
rigid mist
so you kinda just have to throw it into the slums
foggy star
jester
rigid mist
unfortunately curtis doesnt hate it
curtis not hating it is good imo
gilded briar
you cannot please either side without a rework
Reminds me of the tol alchemist debates
Holy shit the copium that role got
knotty glacier
i'm sure the jest is best crowd isn't going to like this discussion
rigid mist
i see tuba and curtis as one side of competitiveness and the other side as casual fun
gentle pecan
curtis not hating it is good imo
i want it drawn and quartered
rigid mist
its always good to have both perspectives when it comes to balance/game design
gentle pecan
yeah
rigid mist
even if you disagree with one side
knotty glacier
surv but it can kill
gentle pecan
surv but it can kill
and leaves after two kills
exotic skiff
How is this debate still going
gilded briar
surv but it can kill
ToL alchemist
foggy star
is it a debate?
gilded briar
Did exactly thqt
knotty glacier
considering they're both yellow
i was talking about alchemist
gentle pecan
is it a debate?
idk
rigid mist
How is this debate still going
this isnt even really a debate
rigid mist
i was talking about alchemist
never played ToL
foggy star
its just talking about how much jester and pirate fucking sucks idk
exotic skiff
Now we’re killing jester with fire
rigid mist
i just want NE to serve an actual purpose
knotty glacier
never played ToL
me neither but i do know alchemist is surv with a gun
rigid mist
being roles that fuck over town but also can throw evils off course for a bit
the moment they can do that well then i think they're actually balance
gilded briar
never played ToL
ToL has scorned which is genuinely peak neutral design
...and then alchemist
rigid mist
all neutrals will be anti someone
gentle pecan
ToL has scorned which is genuinely peak neutral design
...and then alchemist
what was scorned
wasnt it executioner
rigid mist
and CN wont be as swingy
foggy star
honestly i have no real problem with np being a lite ne i think it is a completely fine compromise but as i see it
if anti everyone can work
so be it
but currently the way it does is horrible
gilded briar
Executioner kind of?
You frame your marks, you can forge lynches and you get trollbox
rigid mist
if anti everyone can work
we have some solutions we aren't trying out
foggy star
so either avenues im willing to go down
gilded briar
Executioner kind of?
You frame your marks, you can forge lynches and you get tro...
Also you need to land 2 marks to win
rigid mist
Executioner kind of?
You frame your marks, you can forge lynches and you get tro...
trollbox sounds like lmaobox
that tf2 cheat
foggy star
if anti everyone can work
as i said before
i have immense doubts
its been attempted around 5 times now
rigid mist
i think theres a plentiful amount of good reworks
that actually fix the nes
but we haven't tried them
foggy star
yeah
gentle pecan
i dont think anti everyone can work but if it can sure
rigid mist
we need an environment to actually try them in that people will play
id suggest the btos2cts
but like
foggy star
theres no telling itll be good until one of the devs slap it in the game unfortunately
rigid mist
thats not actual town of salem
gentle pecan
id suggest the btos2cts
month long games
rigid mist
exactly
gentle pecan
too slow
knotty glacier
modkills
knotty glacier
we do have live games
rigid mist
we do have live games
discord =/= town of salem
knotty glacier
thousands because people can not follow orders
good soldiers follow orders
gilded briar
I mean okay it wouldn't be hard to run a live tos game
gentle pecan
arent we running botc now
rigid mist
i state again
gilded briar
Manual tos game anyway
gentle pecan
i state again
a btos2 test branch
knotty glacier
tos2 role editor when
gilded briar
And manual games are an underrated medium but shrug
foggy star
tos2 role editor when
would love this but it would be painful to code in
the role editor itself
knotty glacier
yeah
knotty glacier
it's a pipe dream but damn if it isn't a desirable one
rigid mist
oh my god
cyan geode
And manual games are an underrated medium but shrug
Maybe so, but they don’t emulate ToS.
Like, Jester kinda works in forum mafia. Kinda.
It doesn’t work here.
gilded briar
Like, Jester kinda works in forum mafia. *Kinda.*
Not really
gentle pecan
find the bad word
💀💀
foggy star
find the bad word
this shit happened to me earlier too
knotty glacier
find the bad word
free bro they did nothing wrong
rigid mist
but that is a genuine question
gilded briar
It nukes socials in longform which are so much more important
cyan geode
Not really
There’s a debate about it in the FM community but basically it’s much easier to scumread Jester vs. other evils in FM due to having like 2 whole days to do it per day phase and less roles
cyan geode
Yep.
rigid mist
There’s a debate about it in the FM community but basically it’s much easier to ...
mhm
foggy star
getting 15 people at the same time, making sure they arent busy or need to leave halfway
rigid mist
i kinda wish we have a btos2 testing thing
rigid mist
i get btos2 is the testing environment for tos2
gentle pecan
i kinda wish we have a btos2 testing thing
a test branch?
gilded briar
There’s a debate about it in the FM community but basically it’s much easier to ...
I can say within my own FM community that the consensus is "no it fucking sucks lol"
rigid mist
i feel like some of these changes would actually be good to try out
if they work they can be in btos2, give it a few months and then it could maybe be in vanilla
gilded briar
I am assuming by FM community you mean tos FM though
cyan geode
I can say within my own FM community that the consensus is "no it fucking sucks ...
I was in a much older FM community
So maybe I’m out of date
gentle pecan
if they work they can be in btos2, give it a few months and then it could maybe ...
i don’t think the devs will be reading this conversation so maybe would be better to post it as its own idea
cyan geode
When I played FM it was hotly contested and there were people who insisted Jester was a great role for testing your SD skills
And others who insisted it was bastard
knotty glacier
When I played FM it was hotly contested and there were people who insisted Jeste...
self destruct kills?
rigid mist
i don’t think the devs will be reading this conversation so maybe would be bette...
they say they read things
i can make it its own suggestion i suppose
gilded briar
And others who insisted it was bastard
Yeah i think this consensus has just won out
gentle pecan
they say they read things
they do claim to read things
gilded briar
If you check the mafiascum page on jester it basically says "don't put this role in your setup"
gentle pecan
every single message probably not
cyan geode
self destruct kills?
Social Deduction skills
knotty glacier
ohhhhh
gentle pecan
it wouldn’t be humanly possible to read absolutely everything
cyan geode
Autocorrect
rigid mist
when did s3 even start
cyan geode
May 16th
gentle pecan
when did s3 even start
uhh
rigid mist
what the fuck
gentle pecan
a while ago
rigid mist
MAY?
knotty glacier
over half a year ago
cyan geode
YEP.
knotty glacier
s4 has presumably been pushed back by the buyout
rigid mist
if thats how long seasons are gonna be
then we actually do need mid season patches
cause what the hell
gentle pecan
then we actually do need mid season patches
ranked is dead
cyan geode
s4 has presumably been pushed back by the buyout
Not presumably, that is literally what happened
rigid mist
ranked is dead
i wonder why
knotty glacier
well yeah
cyan geode
S4 was supposed to start in September
gentle pecan
who cares about no midseason patches
rigid mist
almost like theres a good reason
ranked dying is bad for the game btw
i think we all know that
gentle pecan
almost like theres a good reason
doxxing scandals etc
knotty glacier
gentle pecan
oh yeah bad balance is also a contributing factor
gentle pecan
yeah blitzkrieg games
cyan geode
And the TK too
rigid mist
if s4 doesnt have CK CPOW and TK nerfs im gonna quit the game for another 4 months
gentle pecan
genuinely town needs a confirmed second power so they dont get mopped as hard by two kp and a ck/cpow
rigid mist
And the TK too
the thing is
gentle pecan
genuinely town needs a confirmed second power so they dont get mopped as hard by...
as of now
cyan geode
Vigilante.
knotty glacier
"what do you mean people aren't going to play our game competetively when it is not a good competetive game"
rigid mist
*Vigilante.*
CL conj pois pm
good luck beating the conj turned rit and pois turned voodoo
gilded briar
"what do you mean people aren't going to play our game competetively when it is ...
Unfortunately actually competitive Mafia is generally Not Rolemadness so it'd attract a very different crowd lol
gentle pecan
good luck beating the conj turned rit and pois turned voodoo
cl turns voodoo
rigid mist
hell you can even make conj into a witch instead
gentle pecan
for even more optimality
rigid mist
for even more optimality
you dont have a reason to keep conj after they nuke
CL has basic defense at least
and is a good book holder
cyan geode
CL conj pois pm
I used the OP bullshit to destroy the OP bullshit
rigid mist
I used the OP bullshit to destroy the OP bullshit
yeah well
thats the state of the game
coven is arguably more broken than town in most games
gentle pecan
I used the OP bullshit to destroy the OP bullshit
the better part is if one side isnt as strong but the other side is fully prepared
rigid mist
especially with the inclusion of common town
gentle pecan
to deal with a strong other
rigid mist
cause i think ranked literally can only spawn one tpow
gentle pecan
tpow rt rt ct ct
cyan geode
It’s a hard cap on TPow
gentle pecan
i think
gentle pecan
no
rigid mist
ts always getting shafted
rigid mist
tk literally is the swing
gentle pecan
tav
cyan geode
Admirer (in vanilla)
rigid mist
yeah
exotic skiff
lol
rigid mist
you have the 2nd best role ever added to the game (socialite)
gentle pecan
oh yeah socialite
rigid mist
and then you have admi (hard confirm) and retri
rigid mist
and then you have the bottom of the barrel
i guess tav can also be hard confirm cause you're either tav or poisoner
exotic skiff
!soc
cyan geode
And knuckles
rigid mist
fun game design!
cyan geode
I want to do something else
gentle pecan
i still dont get why we can't make rbs silent
i think playerbase hates it
rigid mist
i think playerbase hates it
oh no, we have to socially deduce in a social deduction game
gentle pecan
i would be fine with silent rbs / silent disruption
rigid mist
whatever can we do?
gentle pecan
whatever can we do?
the horrors
cyan geode
I want to consolidate disruption messages, and give more evils disruption
foggy star
admi having not been changed all this time is just beyond me
gentle pecan
rigid mist
I want to consolidate disruption messages, and give more evils disruption
this works
exotic skiff
i guess tav can also be hard confirm cause you're either tav or poisoner
btos2 is better because of things like tt, baker, audi, etc
foggy star
except in btos2
rigid mist
admi having not been changed all this time is just beyond me
dude the role got BUFFED
technically it got nerfed
gentle pecan
admirer is just shit
foggy star
theres a whole like
gentle pecan
admirer thread
gentle pecan
how many messages is it at
foggy star
let me see
rigid mist
ts is probably the most offensive bucket when it comes to swing
like jailor/marshal compared to mayor is high sure
gentle pecan
ts is probably the most offensive bucket when it comes to swing
tpow
gilded briar
I want to consolidate disruption messages, and give more evils disruption
This kind of works but it still leaves town disruption roles unbluffable to anyone without a disruption ability
Also my life is an unknown Obstacle issues but thats a matter of taste
rigid mist
is just straight up insane
exotic skiff
mayor is so bad
gentle pecan
thats how shit it is
rigid mist
This kind of works but it still leaves town disruption roles unbluffable to anyo...
yes
foggy star
rigid mist
admirer isnt a liability
its broken
the thing is the casual community thinks its ass
cyan geode
It’s both
rigid mist
because its a 2f1
gilded briar
(Although if you then add more and more disruption you can also get a roundabout version of TP hell)
gentle pecan
both cases are true
rigid mist
the role is broken because its auto confirmw ith no plausible deniability
cyan geode
It’s a liability if you play it wrong, but everyone plays it wrong
rigid mist
its just ass when you get accepted
rigid mist
It’s a liability if you play it wrong, but everyone plays it wrong
yeah
if played correctly admi is probably the best ts?
gentle pecan
if played correctly admi is probably the best ts?
exotic skiff
admirer is still toxic
rigid mist
by a large margin
foggy star
the thing is the casual community thinks its ass
its one of the things ive actually seen a huge majority of the community agree on
rigid mist
admirer is still toxic
i hope it never gets into a relationship
foggy star
not even pirate is this agreed upon
gentle pecan
its ass for game design
rigid mist
its one of the things ive actually seen a huge majority of the community agree o...
the entire ranked community knows how broken admirer is
in a good players hand
gentle pecan
the entire ranked community knows how broken admirer is
i think there might be a few who disagree
rigid mist
deadass not dying when you get accepted
is actually really good
you can hard confirm someone before dying
assuming you die the same night
foggy star
you also get to act as a psuedo tp for them for 2 nights too
cyan geode
I’d still rather just be Cleric
exotic skiff
You can LOL
cyan geode
Enchanter stocks in shambles
rigid mist
it is literally old ga
exotic skiff
I don’t play vanilla and when I do admirer is always banned
rigid mist
put onto a town role
like deadass its 1f1
goes through jail
i think it even cleans douses
like old ga
cyan geode
Yes this was explicitly the point
Ahkilles made Admirer the way it is, specifically because he noticed people liked GA and wanted it back in some fashion
exotic skiff
goes through jail
We love confirming two townies because the exe doesn’t work
rigid mist
man
exotic skiff
amazing play
rigid mist
just give us actual GA
cyan geode
No
gentle pecan
goes through jail
me when i execute someone (they didnt die and no horseman is in play)
rigid mist
in neutral special
cyan geode
Also *takes a shot*
exotic skiff
GA is just glorified teammate
rigid mist
Also *\*takes a shot\**
REAL
foggy star
pretty much just an extra faction member
rigid mist
me when i execute someone (they didnt die and no horseman is in play)
oracle jailor interaction
🔥
exotic skiff
oracle jailor interaction
Tuba said that doesn’t work
rigid mist
anymore
exotic skiff
Why though
rigid mist
they made jailor unstoppable because it did
gilded briar
GA is boring
rigid mist
oracle doesnt visit its passive
so if you protect the person in jail you bypass jail
if they're evil they die cause they're not the role they claimed
if they're town they live and you confirm the oracle the townie and the jailor
literally all in one
probably the worst beneficial interaction of all time
exotic skiff
Yeah fair
gentle pecan
if they're town they live and you confirm the oracle the townie and the jailor
jailor ignored oracle
for whatever reason
rigid mist
it did not
gentle pecan
ive done that play with vigilante though
gentle pecan
they gave it unstoppable for a reason
apparently it was visual
rigid mist
iirc vanilla jailor is powerful
rigid mist
apparently it was visual
it might be
wild hill
wasn't it mentioned at some point that jailor was always unstoppable, just adm stopped the exe
rigid mist
i know jailor is powerful in tos1 cause of the ga admi think
exotic skiff
This thread has almost 2000 messages already ☠️
rigid mist
wasn't it mentioned at some point that jailor was always unstoppable, just adm s...
ga wouldn't protect from jugg in tos1 but would protect from jailor so i said unless they specifically coded ga to ignore jailor
it meant that jailor's attack was powerful
gentle pecan
iirc vanilla jailor is powerful
yeah
wild hill
ga wouldn't protect from jugg in tos1 but would protect from jailor so i said un...
i meant tos2 mb
gentle pecan
This thread has almost 2000 messages already ☠️
damn
cyan geode
This thread has almost 2000 messages already ☠️
Yea it became the hotspot for bitching about NE
the most controversial subalignment
exotic skiff
It only bugs me that jailor is unstoppable in btos2 because townies shouldn’t be above powerful for consistency but that’s a me problem.
exotic skiff
Yea it became the hotspot for bitching about NE
No for real
rigid mist
It only bugs me that jailor is unstoppable in btos2 because townies shouldn’t be...
no role can survive powerful anyways
gentle pecan
having unstoppable was a nerf
exotic skiff
I have screenshots of vanilla exe from playing rp yesterday
gentle pecan
isnt evil aligned jailor gonna execute NPs
they kill through ethereal
rigid mist
cause they said they're making the attacks based off of the attacker's faction
exotic skiff
and I killed two coven FOR FUN
gentle pecan
tied to roles
rigid mist
they kill through ethereal
read above
rigid mist
cause they said they're making the attacks based off of the attacker's faction
idk if this is right but i remember reading this
rigid mist
yeah
wild hill
i dont think that will happen, it would out tt vigi and stuff
finite mauve
i mean tt would probably be the exception just like every other mechanic in this game
wild hill
oh then maybe could see it happening
knotty glacier
gentle pecan
exotic skiff
me: "4v8" (8 was dead)
4: dead silence
10: "Do we guilty?"
me: "💀"
also me: "I'm tormenting that sh*t"
we love vanilla
gentle pecan
i love neutral evils hard swinging the game in whoever they choose’s favor
exotic skiff
The issue is that you either choose or it's complete rng
In this case I definitely made a choice
gentle pecan
The issue is that you either choose or it's complete rng
both are bad
exotic skiff
i love neutral evils hard swinging the game in whoever they choose’s favor
Keep in mind this is a competitive setting
gentle pecan
so even worse
rigid mist
i dont think that will happen, it would out tt vigi and stuff
how
wild hill
If an np is outted and ur vigi you can shoot it and be conf not tt
rigid mist
If an np is outted and ur vigi you can shoot it and be conf not tt
when is an np ever outed and you want to shoot them as tt
thats like getting the NP hanged as tt ti
its not credible enough for you to not be tt
wild hill
I'm saying if that change was made it would make vigi confirmed not tt
rigid mist
not really
also tt is still a townie
it would register as a townie for that purpose
wild hill
Yes really, if it was based off Alignment tt vigi would hit def
rigid mist
tt doesnt change ur faction
it changes ur wincon
which is why tt isnt sus to sheriff
wild hill
Yh that's why I changed my mind after people called tt an exception
soft halo
me: "4v8" (8 was dead)
4: *dead silence*
10: "Do we guilty?"
me: "💀"
also me: "...
Executioner gaming
I am so glad modded exists.
knotty glacier
literally what made them think target selection and torment were good ideas outside of getting grandfathered in from traitors
gilded briar
Target selection is fine if you don’t implement it in the most annoying way possible (choosing n1 and only n1 is very close to an rng target with no bounds which suuuuucks)
Torment was probably them thinking “we have Jester, what if we just reused that?”
finite mauve
vanilla executioner is literally just ripped from TiS
it's okay-ish there (i think) because it is a dedicated evil
soft halo
It's ripped from hell
finite mauve
it does not work well as a neutral
finite mauve
It's ripped from hell
gentle pecan
It's ripped from hell
true
cyan geode
Target selection is fine if you don’t implement it in the most annoying way poss...
It used to be that you could choose every night but people quickly realized you could just hop on whoever was already sus and get free wins easily
stoic igloo
Did they not even elaborate on this point
stoic igloo
I also am of the opinion that most things you can do with neutrals you can do be...
This
knotty glacier
Did they not even elaborate on this point
not even once, just went on yelling about how jester and executioner are the best roles in the game and lagspikes are i are just bad at the game