Neutral Evil Overhaul

[gentle pecan]

The Rules / Goal

• All NE have ethereal defense
• They register as friends to everyone but town
• Can be played around
• They leave town after accomplishing a goal
• Focuses on being anti town and helping evils
• Cannot spawn if their goal is unreachable

NOTE:

• Neutral Evils will additionally win if town is killed off and they are alive, regardless if their win condition was met

• This would make them similar to pariah (Shouldn't matter since these are hard anti town)
• Incentives them to work with evils (They are still hard anti town, shouldnt matter)
• Makes them not as shit to play if town isnt falling for the NE (Makes the game more fun for the Neutral Evil)

Pirate punishment is in need of a rework

Suggest any changes below

Roles: Pirate, Executioner, Inquisitor, Jester, Doomsayer

Executioner

Attack: None Defense: Ethereal Powerful
Abilities
Have a target
Visit a player
Torment the town for their mistake

Visit

Target a player and visit them
This does nothing

Target (Passive)

You always have a town aligned player as your target
They cannot be a town power or amnesiac
Town traitors, recruited townies do not count as town aligned

Executioner’s Torment (Passive)

When you leave town in victory, you curse the gallows
You will additionally roleblock every town aligned player that night
The next day, any player who is voted to trial is instantly executed, their last will and role is concealed
Evils will learn concealed information

Attributes

If your target died to being lynched or killed by another town aligned player, you leave town in victory
If you are alive when all town members die, you leave town in victory
If no targets are available when you spawn, you cannot spawn

Jester - Neutral Evil

Attack: None Defense: Ethereal Powerful
Abilities
Fool a player
Deceive the town

Fool

Visit a player
You will frame them to be the jester unless they are evil, in which the frame fails but your alterate wont
They will appear to be the jester and as a neutral evil
if they die the night you frame them or the day after
All evils know the true role and will of players you alter

Attributes

Once 3 players that are dead appear to be the jester, you leave town in victory
You also leave the town in victory if you are alive when all town members die
If a enchanter or medusa attempts to alterate or stone your target, you override it and refund their ability charge
You cannot be in-play if hidden roles is active

Doomsayer - Neutral Evil

Attack: None Defense: Ethereal Powerful
Abilities
Seal a player’s fate
Cause calamity in the town

Fate

Select a player and a town role
If you are right, Mark them with sealed fate
If you are wrong, you may not guess them again for a night
The victim learns if their fate was sealed successfully

Calamity (Passive)

Players who are voted up while having a sealed fate are instantly executed
Attacks against players whose fates are sealed become unstoppable and astral
Town roles who arent aligned with the town are immune to these affects

Attributes

Once you seal two players fates you leave town in victory
You leave town in victory if you are alive when all town members die
Town Investigatives cannot be guessed

Inquisitor - Neutral Evil

Attack: None Defense: Ethereal Powerful
Abilities
Search for heretics
Mark them for death

Heretics (Passive)

You start the game knowing 3 town roles; those are the roles of your heretics
You will prioritize knowing a power townie
If you cannot have 3 town heretics, you will not spawn
Town Traitors, Recruited Townies, Egotists, or any other townie that may not be aligned with the town may not be a heretic
If a heretic is converted to being evil midgame, they will no longer be a heretic, counting to your win condition

Inquire

Visit a player and learn if they're a heretic
You are deception immune

Mark for Death (Toggle)

Visit a player
if they are not a heretic this fails and you are roleblocked the next night
If they are a heretic you will mark them for death
Marked for Death players are framed to be the inquisitor, and have all attacks on them become unstoppable and astral
Marked for death players that are voted to trial will be instantly executed
Marks for Death expires if Heretic status expires as well

Attributes

You leave town in victory once all players with heretic status lose it or are marked for death

Pirate - Neutral Evil

Attack: None Defense: Ethereal Powerful
Abilities
Plunder a player
Wound a player if they visit your target

Plunder

Select two players
If your first target targets your second target, you will successfully plunder them and disrupt them
You may select yourself as the second target
You only visit the first target
Evils, Town Traitors and Recruits are immune to being plundered

Wound (Passive)

All players who are plundered successfully become wounded and lose the ability to visit the player they got plundered on
Attacks against wounded players become unstoppable and astral
Evils will learn who is wounded
Roles with innate defense are immune to being wounded

Attributes

Wound can not be recovered from unless a player becomes evil mid game
You win once two players are successfully plundered or town is destroyed with you alive

.

(this is totally not rushed since i saw the pirate "nerf")

[thick prism]

bro

this makes ne just np

[gentle pecan]

NE should be anti town

if they arent its just dumb

[gentle pecan]

take executioner in btos2

[finite mauve]

NE should be anti everyone

NP is already the anti-town alignment

[gentle pecan]

the current model is unhealthy'

because inquis can just be town

[foggy star]

anti everyone doesnt work

and thats been proven

[cyan geode]

That depends on if each individual NE role counts as one attempt at doing anti-everyone, or if each iteration of NEs counts as one attempt

[gentle pecan]

whats the difference

[cyan geode]

If each individual role counts as one attempt, then anti-everyone NE has been attempted 5 times and every one of them so far has been plagued with issues, proving that anti-everyone NE is, at a minimum, difficult to pull off

If each iteration of NEs counts as one attempt, then anti-everyone NE has only been attempted twice (once in ToS2's inception, and again when Inquisitor was added, since no NE has been substantially reworked since then)
Under this framework it's a lot harder to say it's "been proven" because there hasn't been much tinkering with anti-everyone NE since they were brought in

[foggy star]

its proven is definitely a stretch but if theyve tried to hit the nail with it 5 times then its hard to say otherwise

[dawn meadow]

May I ask, you say it's shown to not work, but why? Is it because they screw up evils? that's fine if the objective is anti everyone (for Doom I understand, but simply making them guess Evils by exact roles and/or Sub-Alignmets for Cov specifically should greatly help) And if it's not for that then why? And if you want to say it's because Evils should be Evil and against town and not against everyone? change NE to Neutral Chaos that fits better to the Chaos causing Jester and Exe, and Disruptive Doom and that issue is fixed as well.

Jester has another fundamental issue that's separate to who they are against regarding scumreading and 'AFKing' but that is honestly more of a thing that TOS2 is a faster game than most Social Deduction and Jester which as a concept usually thrives of long cons can be very disruptive to that flow.

Then again this concept of Jester could still work as an Anti Everyone Jest if you simply remove the: "All evils know the truth" clause.

[wild hill]

honestly I think inq is the closest to being a good "anti-everyone" role, it should just be forced to have 2 town targets

[foggy star]

holy yapology

[foggy star]

but yes as they are, neutral evils would much better fit a neutral chaos alignment but that is difficult to make without just make neutral special 2.0 but just for a different purpose. just a misc bucket of roles that are unhealthy regularly in a normal rolelist, they have been shown not to work as theyve been attempted 5 times with little success and the objectively healthiest result we got from it has been doomsayer, basically setting the bar on the fucking ground at that point. for your first point, yes neutral evils screwing up nontown like coven and especially solo neutrals like nk is fucking terrible, and its part of the reason why they should be anti town since anti everyone will rarely never work, and will usually lead to the neutral evil siding with the majority which is usually town in this case. also, saying “they screw up evils” is really putting it lightly, when basically every neutral evil has killer power in some shape or form, including vanilla exe, they can basically be the deciding factor in a game whether coven lose or win just through their presence alone and who they kill upon getting their wincon, which is fucking horrible role design and i really shouldnt need to explain this furthet .it really doesnt matter how well your coven could be doing, if a jester decides to random his kill and lands on one of you then i guess bad luck, you can try again next time. anyways you can argue as much as you want, but making an anti everyone role in concept can be painfully easy but executing it is fucking painstakingly difficult to pull off, even inquisitor doesnt do as well of a job as people say it does because it still has underlying issues, but it does a much better job of being a “nuisance” then its other ne companions

yap inbound

ive said “it has been proven” is a stretch beforehand, but its really hard to not say it when the writing is on the wall for everyone to see

[cyan geode]

It’s much harder to balance anti-everyone NEs too

Because they’re swingier by nature

NKs don’t have this issue as much despite also being anti-everyone, because a skilled NK will balance itself
-# (NKs who hard target Town or Coven will find themselves swarmed by the other, so they need to make sure to keep the game in a state where they can win)

But NE, once they do their thing they can just fuck off and not care how it ends

For example the difference between Doomsayer dooming 3 Town and 3 Coven is staggering

[still bramble]

I see where this is coming from, but if you make Neutral Evils a lot like Neutral Pariahs, you might as well move them into the Neutral Pariah bucket.

[cyan geode]

Yeah that’s

That’s kind of the goal, I think

[wild hill]

This is what i see as the problem with anti-everyone NEs, they aren't really "anti-everyone" they're anti-whoever-I-want-to-screw-over. Often based on RNG

[cyan geode]

Or convenience

[foggy star]

could not actually explain it better

[wild hill]

jest either hurts town or instantly gives town the win depending on haunt, with no inbetween for example

[foggy star]

if a jest wants to kill a town, they can usually buff it out due to sheer numbers

[still bramble]

Doomsayer should've been limited to 1 person per evil faction

[foggy star]

but if a jest wants to kill a coven or a solo nk

well

[cyan geode]

The issue with that is it becomes really hard to win

[foggy star]

there goes either 1/4 of your team or your full team

[cyan geode]

I know I play AA where Doomsayer is naturally harder

But it already struggles to win games

[still bramble]

Would it make much of a different if Doomsayer could guess up to 1 Town Investigative if evils were restricted?

2 I know would just be easy mode.

[foggy star]

no thats terrible

[cyan geode]

The problem with being able to guess TI is that, like other roles, it scares TI into not full claiming

[foggy star]

roleguessers cant guess ti for a reason and thats because ti would just be incentivised not to claim, same goes with rit

[cyan geode]

Yeah

I think if you want to make Doomsayer NP-Lite

You have to lower the amount of people it has to guess to 2

3 is too hard unless the game is stacked with TPow

[still bramble]

How about you can still guess up to 3 players of the same evil faction, but only 1 player of each evil faction is killed; prioritizing the player highest in the Doomsayer UI? In exchange, doomed players are no longer revealed during the day.

[cyan geode]

Mmm.

This

Reduces the swing on only one end tho

Killing 1 coven vs. 3 town

Is still crazy

But if you reduce it on both ends to that extreme

You get the old nerf

[still bramble]

Town has the numbers to make up for that, evil factions do not.

Unless it's late in the game, it's not gonna harm town as much as Coven or Apoc

[wild hill]

not really, especially if the townies were tpows/conf people

[still bramble]

Town shouldn't be so reliant on Town Powers for one, but I do kinda agree with confirmed people.

[cyan geode]

Town-of-confirm is

Its own, massive issue

[still bramble]

That's one reason why I think Mayor should be the only self reveal role, but alas

[cyan geode]

You kind of need to do a big balance patch of all TPow to get their shit together

[still bramble]

If Doom could only kill 1 member of each faction max, I don't know if that'll be too close to old nerf territory.

[cyan geode]

I mean

The real issue still remains

Doomsayer doesn’t actually care who it’s killing

It just fucks shit up and fucks off

Meaning its impact on the game is effectively random

[still bramble]

I would take the chance with only 1 person from each faction dying, than the chance of 3 faction members dying at once

Coven/Apoc losing 3/4 of their team in one hit is basically an instant game over.

[cyan geode]

An improvement doesn’t mean it’s fixed now

Which is my point

[still bramble]

I suppose Exe also fucks shit up and fucks off, but ironically it's apoc sided when there's Death

[cyan geode]

All of them do

Pirate (which is tossed into NS bucket here but is NE in vanilla) is the worst offender of “just fucks shit up and fucks off”

But all of them do it to some extent

[still bramble]

Worst is probably Doom simply for the swing potential.

[cyan geode]

Regardless

It is, imo, an issue inherent to the anti-everyone model of NE

[foggy star]

wasnt there a pirate nerf that was just announced

[cyan geode]

A Pirate nerf.

Hahahahahaha.

[foggy star]

😭

im pretty sure it still has rps

[cyan geode]

Bandaid on a tumor.

[foggy star]

changing unstoppable to powerful does little to nothing at all except for the fact that you can now be countered by tps

[cyan geode]

Well no

It still counts as a win if the person doesn’t die

[foggy star]

they just need to rework pirate from the ground up if they want to make ns an actual formulated bucket

[cyan geode]

So now you can do the whole “give me a win and let the Cleric heal you” shebang

[foggy star]

it does?

[cyan geode]

Yea

[foggy star]

oh lol

[cyan geode]

It’s been like that with horsemen

And BG/Trapper

[foggy star]

new meta “tplo psy seer spy inves pirate on me”

[cyan geode]

Real.

But yea

I do believe anti-everyone NE has inherent issues

Sorry for being pedantic about the whole “has it been proven it’s fundamentally flawed” thing

[foggy star]

meh its fine

i do think saying anti everyone can never work is a large stretch i believe there are designs that can be made accordingly with that in mind, i just think theres always gonna be underlying issues that need to be addressed with these roles

i think from a viewpoint of giving every bucket its own identity making ne pseudo np probably wouldnt be favoured for alot of people, especially those who are used to ne in a vanilla casual setting

i think psuedo np is a fine compromise tho

[cyan geode]

The actual, not-half-assed solution would be to just merge the two buckets

Or for vanilla, fully transform NE into NP

[foggy star]

im pretty sure maverick has a thread dedicated to doing that

transforming ne into np and such

[cyan geode]

Yea

It’s not complete tho

I’m kinda hype for it

Personal bias definitely comes into play when regarding the “what should we do with NE” question

I think I would be more inclined to try and make anti-everyone work, if I didn’t absolutely loathe Jester

And if I wasn’t utterly desperate for anything that would get it out of standard play

[gentle pecan]

i think i mentioned this several times in the op post

but yes

this intends to make neutral evils benefit evils

(also eliminates bucket swing for common neutral and neutral evils)

because for NE theres several anti coven roles (doom/inquis)

while for CN it makes sure that they’re all evil supporting roles

and not swinging between inquis with two coven heretics and executioner

[gentle pecan]

should I change doomsayer wincon to that?

I’d figure its fine since I made it easier to guess players

(Well easier on a condition you can do 1-2 at a time, but no consecutive guessing on the same guy)

[foggy star]

thatd be fine i think

[cyan geode]

I think so yea

There’s two issues that make Doom hard to win as

1. Knowing 1-2 roles but they die before you can guess the 3rd

2. At a certain point there just won’t be enough townies you can even guess

1-2 at a time solves the first problem but not the second

[foggy star]

yeah

the only real countermeasure to the issue that dooms wincon is hard is just that theres so much instaconfirming roles unfortunately

[gentle pecan]

I solved two

so ill tweak doomsayer a bit

ill figure out what to do with doom / pirate when im out for my 2 hour run

[strong torrent]

I have never seen a more inconsistent "You leave when all Townies have died" 😭

but anyways

these are...surprisingly cool

[exotic skiff]

Honestly this works in competitive land but I prefer it if NE stays on the neutral side of things over the evil side since NP fills that role already

The Jester rework would honestly make a sick new NP, just adjust the win con to NPs and give it a reward for doing its job (maybe unlocking a day ability that inflicts some confusion status whatever that would do)

[strong torrent]

NEs are always going to be unfair if they are anti-everyone

especially when they're so punishing

[exotic skiff]

It's honestly just a matter of gameplay philosophy. Most people assume NEs help evils just because town NEEDS to assume that when in actuality they can just simply not do that.

[strong torrent]

Jester punishes evils for getting a possible threat executed
Doomsayer punished evils for being too obvious (which is Town's job), or just because it's easier
Pirate is literally Town's pet (would still be unbalanced in its current state if it was anti-town)
Inquisitor is...Inquisitor

[exotic skiff]

Something is missing

[strong torrent]

you don't need to side evils here you can play by your own rules

[exotic skiff]

Exe

[strong torrent]

Executioner has already been reworked to be anti-town

[exotic skiff]

Exe is too anti town rn

the rework here is a lot better just without being NP

NP win condition is already busted outside of town vs singular faction modes

[cyan geode]

NP win condition is less the problem than the fact that

NPs are all just overtuned rn

Especially Judge

[exotic skiff]

Yeah their downside doesn't cancel their upside well enough

[strong torrent]

NP win con is fine they're just all unbalanced

it's just a problem in modes like all any where you basically win for existing

[cyan geode]

AA has the problem of doing absolutely fuck all to mitigate stupid ass spawns

but TAA has already thrown away any concept of even pretending to be balanced so that's a vanilla issue

if we had an AA with an apoc cap, unique neutrals, and NP replaced NE instead of spawning on top of it
NP would not be even remotely busted

Especially since NP is itself capped

[foggy star]

yeah of course they have the CHOICE to not work with town

[exotic skiff]

I think people like aa because its easy

[foggy star]

but 9 times out of 10 siding town is the easiest outcome for ne

[exotic skiff]

That’s it

[foggy star]

besides modded exe which is basically just antitown

[exotic skiff]

Jester and exe torment is completely up to the player

Unless the exe explicitly states what their plan is which i like doing

[foggy star]

and if the player decides to leave it up to fate

then its up to the rng

if the rng lands town, they will usually be able to buff it out

[exotic skiff]

the only thing is people haven’t picked up the gray deputy meta in vanilla because NOT TOWN = BAD!!

[foggy star]

if it lands coven, then unlucky for you IG

ne just having killpower if theyre anti everyone is stupid anyways

youre basically deciding which faction you want to fuck over cause you feel like it

ne being in ranked already turned out to be a complete disaster

and multiple ne in all any and chaos gamemodes isnt any better

[exotic skiff]

One thing I really dislike about NE is the idea of pushing a townie as NE or a coven as jester, it’s such a braindead tactic

I think the point of it is leniency but why reward evils for playing evil

Especially in a ranked setting where the players should be making less mistakes

[cyan geode]

one thing that drives me absolutely crazy

is that Town doesn't claim full role in fear of Doomsayer

yet when a Doomsayer actually claims it's "let them cook"

"inno this find coven"

[exotic skiff]

Who does that lol

children?

[cyan geode]

I play vanilla it happens all the time

[exotic skiff]

oh makes sense

[cyan geode]

Maybe the skill level of BToS2 players is higher

[exotic skiff]

in modded that’s a nono

[cyan geode]

but in vanilla it's constant

the worst part is getting called Coven because I don't trust doom claims

and want to hang it

(reminders of the time I was Berserker, and the "Doomsayer claim" was Ritualist)

[exotic skiff]

vanilla is full of throwers and discord callers

[foggy star]

eh

by like

maybe 5%

thats definitely an improvement regardless

[exotic skiff]

lots of things people will do don’t make sense and people will get quiet but still engage and vote

[exotic skiff]

it’s bigger than that, but players are about on par

[foggy star]

i dont think modded is like some smart haven of players

alot of vanilla casuals definitely play modded too

[exotic skiff]

Vanilla is just unplayable in comparison

[foggy star]

like a decent portion

[cyan geode]

The highs aren't higher, but the lowest common denominator is chopped off

[foggy star]

basically

[cyan geode]

That being the outright trolls, complete noobs, and people who give 0 fucks about playing the game

None of them are gonna bother with a mod

[foggy star]

and people who throw for their guys in discord calls

[exotic skiff]

Complete noobs still play modded sometimes lol

I’ve seen someone who has played 3 games of vanilla and jumped straight to modded

Good on them honestly for taking a risk

[finite mauve]

i mean if they're just new and trying to play the game then you cant really blame them

[exotic skiff]

^

Although I don’t like it when some people ironically gatekeep games like this and treat it like a sandbox because it’s not a well-known competitive game

[foggy star]

honestly thats probably better for them

cause i mean alot of people who have played vanilla for a long ass time then decide to hop onto modded tend to struggle alot

[cyan geode]

With that said

[foggy star]

its a wildly different landscape

[cyan geode]

the modded community can be pretty scary

they have far less tolerance for noobs (and the vanilla community is already unfriendly)

[exotic skiff]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-rawr-rawr-ghost-halloween-ghosts-gif-23859649

I’m super spooky scary

[foggy star]

lmao

i remember playing classic in vanilla once (dont ask why) and i think like 4 of us in the lobby were town elders

and most of the people in that game just didnt know how to play at all

[exotic skiff]

I used to go to classic since it’s the best way to win as sk

[foggy star]

so when we got to the game we were trying to explain stuff to them

but one of the town elders fucking lost their shit at some of the newer players

[exotic skiff]

VIP was the best way to win as NK until people stopped playing non-aa modes

[foggy star]

lmfao

i think quick play fixed the problem with no other gamemodes other then aa being played sort of

but it was really not enough

there just needs to be incentive to play other gamemodes

[exotic skiff]

It helps custom a ton

[foggy star]

true

[exotic skiff]

Incentive could mean exclusive skins but that runs the risk of dying when people already have them

Or just rewarding more tp for playing a unique mode

[finite mauve]

more tp/tome xp is a small one but

[foggy star]

i was just thinking incentive like tp

[exotic skiff]

“New gamemode today” +15 TP

Creating a skin for each game mode would also be cool

Just have aa be the worst skin to grind for easy

[cyan geode]

lol

i mean it'd work, but the thought of Ranked skins makes me wanna die

because I remember tos1

[exotic skiff]

Everyone would be able to get them, you just have to play it a certain amount of times

Hypotheically

[forest hull]

idk

I like neutral evils more as neutral chaos

I dont want whats bascially another version of NP

Jester and exe need to be more punishing for evils to

Which is why I dont really like the exe rework in this mod

[wild hill]

IMO btos 2 exe is the best version we've seen so far, but the punishment should be a little bit more lenient

[forest hull]

this is just untrue idk if your balanceing it because the name includes "evil" but they are meant as solo agents of chaos that are like nk that cannot directly kill

not watered down neutral pariahs

[forest hull]

Evil vote trial manipulation is inherantly bad

And its only bad for town

exe would work better as a neutral pariah than neutral evil with the current rework

[foggy star]

this has been explained to death in this thread alone why anti everyone doesnt work or atleast very difficult to pull off in this current environment

[foggy star]

jester is already punishing for evils

so is vanilla exe

modded not quite because its literally just tos1 exe with minor tweaks

[forest hull]

Jester is not punishing enough for anyone really

vannila exe is fine

I meant modded exe

[gilded briar]

Honestly like
The only anti-everyone 3p ive seen done well is ToL Scorned
Which is still kind of weighted against the town given its kit, but its wincon is indiscriminate

Modded exe kinda sucks because it’s subject to the whims of fate on who their target is, and noexe punishment is beyond annoying

[forest hull]

I dont see why you think its gonna be neutral special 2.0

neutral special is supposed to be roles that work with alignment and chaning roles

[gilded briar]

Vanilla exe sucks harder because torment is godawful

[forest hull]

neutral evil are supposed to be roles that have a nuanced kill ability

and doomsayer is actually a really good role I dont see why you think it sets the bar low

and you just threw in screws over nk and coven is not good

when thats the whole point of a neutral chaos role

is can destroy multiple peoples gameplans

Thats like saying jackal isnt good because it can ruin coven by just being in the game

[foggy star]

you say that but pirate is thrown in there without any real cohesion

[gentle pecan]

i love swinging the game from one side to the other

[gentle pecan]

god i hate pirate

why its allowed to exist is beyond me

anyways i drafted up some changes and will make them here in a few minutes

[foggy star]

if a jester hits a town they can usually buff it out

if a jester hits coven

[wild hill]

theres a difference between "make someone's plans harder" and "completely destroy your chances of winning"

[foggy star]

thats either 1/4 or 1/3 of your team gone

[gentle pecan]

or the neut killer

[foggy star]

dependant on what youre playing

and yeah

if you hit nk

then you just lose with no counterplay

jester as a whole isnt a good idea at all

and its punishment really isnt any better

[knotty glacier]

no it's not

it really isn't

[gentle pecan]

me when im punished for killing an evil but just happens to be the wrong evil

[foggy star]

👍

[knotty glacier]

vanilla tos2 executioner can:

1. target a coven member and torment a townie, punishing town for lynching the people they are SUPPOSED TO LYNCH
2. target a coven member and torment a coven member, putting coven at a MASSIVE DISADVANTAGE
3. target a townie and torment a coven member, punishing evils for successfully getting a mislynch, you know, the thing they're supposed to do

[foggy star]

me when finding the evil and playing the game correctly is actually le bad

[forest hull]

Yeah but the thing is

[foggy star]

god i love jester

[forest hull]

there is less odds of a jester hitting a coven

[foggy star]

such a good role

[gentle pecan]

there is not really any strings attached

[forest hull]

and it makes it so coven has to actually think

and not just let jester win

[foggy star]

theres still odds

[gentle pecan]

me when i have to be paranoid of every mislynch

or i might die

[foggy star]

doesnt matter how small or minute they are

[forest hull]

yes there is but did you know that neutral killings can do the same exact thing with much less effort

[foggy star]

if a jest hits town anyways they just buff it out

[forest hull]

Neutral evils are balanced by their mechanics not being as easy as other roles

[gentle pecan]

town is then punished for killing an evil

[forest hull]

to take effect

[foggy star]

if not then they fuck up whatever factional or solo evil they hit

[gentle pecan]

im too tired to argue this shit

ill be back in a bit

[foggy star]

lmao

[forest hull]

Idk about you but evils getting an extra kill for a night is usually good

[foggy star]

as in what

ne being able to kill?

ck?

[foggy star]

vanilla tos2 exe is just so unbelievably toxic lmao

they really took the already shitty idea of jest and went

"what if instead of killing at night... it killed during the day"

[gilded briar]

Vanilla tos2 exe is a mockery of my beloved scorned and I will not stand for it

[foggy star]

to be fair that was definitely their thought process behind dep existing too

"what if vigilante... but day"

[gilded briar]

I mean i think the thought process was that exe becomes a lot less dangerous when it leaves the game on victory, so they wanted to add a punishment
It’s just that uhhhhhh

They chose KP

[exotic skiff]

I think vanilla tos2 is flashy with its animations but it has serious issues

[foggy star]

yeah thats fair to incentivise a punishment

[gilded briar]

KP targeted by a player with no more stake in the game

[foggy star]

the way vanilla exe goes about it is just stupid

its just jest punishment but day

ne having any kp at all was really a mistake

[forest hull]

your talking about town buffing it out

acting like 1 kill never matters

and yeah vannila exe is stupid but its better than modded exe lol

it fulfills the anti-everyone aspect much better than the current exe

[cyan geode]

OK but the point we are trying to get across

Is that there is a real chance the anti-everyone model is fundamentally flawed and unhealthy

because anti-everyone creates massive swing and puts the game into the hands of someone who does not care about its outcome

[foggy star]

town in most cases wont be as affected by an ne kill compared to most evils due to sheer numbers yes

[forest hull]

Town losing someone is still pretty detrimental

[foggy star]

it can be

[forest hull]

I dont see how you can just say it wont affect town considering neutral evils usually kill big town players

[foggy star]

but in comparison to like

[forest hull]

like a tpow or tk

[foggy star]

any evil

its pretty much nothing unless youre already losing

[forest hull]

Evils have the advantage of being able to play around jester and exe easier than other though

[foggy star]

how?

[gentle pecan]

town wins on 1f1s

just by majority

[forest hull]

We are not talking about 1f1s?

[gentle pecan]

they cant really

if evils push out a potential threat and they die to haunt or torment it just sucks

[forest hull]

If you see someone saying "This guy is evil im sheriff" and its not your teamate and you have not framed them

then its exe

if you see someone getting pushed for a dumb reason and its not your teamate

its jester

then inno

[gentle pecan]

and inno them and look suspicious

great tradeoff

[forest hull]

Jester and exe are not potential threats

[forest hull]

if the jester is good then you can play it off on thinking they are town

the only situation where that happens is when its obvious

[gentle pecan]

jester is potentially a threat

[forest hull]

and everyone says Tpow inno

[gentle pecan]

it could be the arsonist

it could be the serial killer

[cyan geode]

Me when I don't hang the "Jester" and it's SC and we lose to Death

[forest hull]

That wont matter in most lists lmao

also coven has several ways of telling if its jest

[gentle pecan]

or die to arsonist

[forest hull]

like attacking it

[cyan geode]

I mean, the NK also has to worry about if it's Coven

[cyan geode]

And on that note

[foggy star]

this is also a dumb meta

[cyan geode]

Jester heavily discourages NKs from doing their own scumreads

[foggy star]

and is also part of the reason i dont like jest

[cyan geode]

Because NK can't tell the difference between Coven and Jester

the same way Town can't

[forest hull]

In most lists there cant be an nk and ne

[cyan geode]

Ranked

[foggy star]

yeah

[forest hull]

also you can scumread a jester

[cyan geode]

Remember, I play vanilla

No, you really can't

Everything I've ever seen Jesters do, I've also seen other evils do

[forest hull]

Have you never thought "this person is probably a jester imma inno"

and then innoed?

[foggy star]

a jest will literally act as an evil then punish town for deducing theyre an evil

[gentle pecan]

then suspicion is on you

[cyan geode]

I have, but it's a crapshoot as to whether or not that's actually true

[forest hull]

no

unless they say only tpow inno

[cyan geode]

I've inno'd people who weren't Jesters and guiltied people who were

[forest hull]

you are completely viable to inno

[cyan geode]

Because you can't really tell

Also the more you are the reason the person gets pushed

the more sus it is to then turn around and inno it

[forest hull]

If someone does something jestery on stand

and your evil

so its prob jester

you can say

[cyan geode]

It makes it seem like you aren't even confident in your own push

[forest hull]

"Wait this is probably jester we should inno"

and then that works almost all the time

[gentle pecan]

then what if its just arsonist

and you are too scared to hang it

[forest hull]

Then maybe get better at scumreading or stop playing modes with 2 random neutrals

[cyan geode]

LMAO

[gentle pecan]

this is a new one

[forest hull]

a majority of lists cant have 2 neutrals

[cyan geode]

No, it's not.

[forest hull]

I dont see why we should balance arouund that

[gentle pecan]

i havent seen it

[cyan geode]

People have said dying to Jester is a skill issue for millennia.

It's still bullshit

[forest hull]

Besides the later in the game the jester waits the more likly they are to win

[cyan geode]

There's no way to reliably tell the difference

[forest hull]

and the more likly it will hit town harder

[cyan geode]

And if you're saying NK should just

not scumread

[forest hull]

im not?

They can scumread a jester

[cyan geode]

out of fear that anyone they scumread is Jester

[forest hull]

or attack them

[cyan geode]

You're not gonna win very many games if you play super cowardly because anyone you scumread might be Jester
You can't claim anything very strong so your ability to scumread Coven is what will win you the game 90% of the time

[forest hull]

Your acting like every game will have a jester and an nk

[cyan geode]

But you cannot tell the difference between a Coven playing bad and a Jester

You simply can't

[forest hull]

and your acting like you cant tell the difference between a coven and jester

[cyan geode]

Because it's true

[forest hull]

thats crazy

you definetly can

[cyan geode]

Alright, give me the secrets

[forest hull]

it might not be always right

[cyan geode]

What does Jester do that evils never do

[gilded briar]

You have to play around jester if its a possibility at all, really. Thats kind of the point

[forest hull]

Yes I know but 90% of lists have only 1 neutral

[cyan geode]

In vanilla, every standard mode with NK also has NE

[forest hull]

We are in a btos2 server

[cyan geode]

I'm aware

[forest hull]

if you want to talk vannila then go to vannila

[cyan geode]

but Jester isn't any different there

[forest hull]

im balanceing it for the mod

and its modes

[cyan geode]

so "lmao role list issue"

[forest hull]

not vannila modes

[cyan geode]

The thing is, the two are fundamentally connected now

[knotty glacier]

you say this like TAA isn't also an option

[cyan geode]

the people who make vanilla are the people who make BToS2
And they want BToS2 to be a testing ground for vanilla

[forest hull]

I addressed that already

[gilded briar]

This isnt botc, where the jesters also happen to have a flagbearer to protect and have tells that way
It is perfectly easy to pretend to push a scum agenda as jester, and have it look identical to an actual scum pushing it.

[forest hull]

Your acting like a jester is going to be playing so amazing

and that a coven will be playing like ass

you can usually see ques that they are trying to put themself in a bad light

[cyan geode]

Even a bad Jester is gonna look like a Coven playing like ass

[knotty glacier]

that's a player issue

[forest hull]

whereas even a bad coven wont purposely put attention on themselfs

[cyan geode]

Also, Coven have a secret technique

[forest hull]

Makes a psychic will with 3 people on n1 (its coven playing ass guys)

[cyan geode]

I've seen it

[forest hull]

Seen key word

it almost never happens

you dont balance role interactions on if the players are ass and dont understand how the game works

[cyan geode]

It happened a lot in the early days when Psychic was just changed

But the point is

Coven has a secret technique
Where if they know they're getting sussed (or don't feel like playing the video game, annoyingly) they can try to look like Jester on purpose so they don't get hanged

[forest hull]

Thats why tk exists

[cyan geode]

Which further obfuscates the ways to tell the differemce

[old sundial]

@forest hull has leveled up! (17 ➜ 18)

[forest hull]

lmao

[cyan geode]

TK is Vet, now what

[forest hull]

then hang them?

or just hang another?

[wild hill]

just tell the jester to visit the vet ofc!

[forest hull]

its not that hard

[cyan geode]

Yeah that's kind of the point I'm getting across, mate
You have to hang them and pray it's not Jester

If you don't happen to have the matchup

[forest hull]

If they suddenly start acting like jester on the stand

and have been playing normally the rest of the game

I think its not gonna be a jester

[cyan geode]

I've also seen jesters long-haul (or make a play that accidentally gets them confirmed early game)

Like

again

everything you've seen Jesters do
I've also seen non-Jesters do
There is no reliable tell
You just bite the bullet

[forest hull]

long haul is the point of jester

longer in to the game it will be more balanced as town will need to not take the hit

and coven wont want it either

but its easier to get hung

than d2 obv jester

[cyan geode]

Why is an evil that punishes you for scumreading it as evil okay

like

fundamentally that feels like a perversion of the game design

And it causes so many toxic interactions

[forest hull]

Thats like saying you should never scumread because I have seen bad town players do it so we can only hang off of TI info

I do sometimes do that as vigi because afk townies but otherwise

no lmao

[cyan geode]

No, you should never scumread because you might scumread a Jester and die for it

[forest hull]

Yes but your point is that anything can happen with this role so it needs changing

we could say that jinx is unbalanced cause it can double coven kills

with no drawback

[gilded briar]

I mean yes
We can
That is a valid point against Jinx

[forest hull]

Every role has a niche case where it would be unbalanced

Veteran could kill the entire coven n1

[gentle pecan]

veteran is shit design

[forest hull]

I mean yes veteran is unbalanced but thats not a valid reason

[gentle pecan]

jinx is shit

[forest hull]

then give me a role that you think isnt bad

[gentle pecan]

tracker

[forest hull]

Tracker is overpowered because it can find every coven by d4!

there you go

[gentle pecan]

thats

not even

[forest hull]

you cant take niche cases and say thats a justified reason for balanceing

[gilded briar]

Are you deliberately strawmanning this

No one argues that

[forest hull]

how am I strawmanning lol

[forest hull]

this is a niche case

[foggy star]

sure

[forest hull]

and your saying jester is bad

[gilded briar]

That is not a niche case

[forest hull]

because whenever you scumread

it might be a jester

[cyan geode]

No it's not, it happens all the time

[gilded briar]

You have to go through that every single list with a jester

[gentle pecan]

because it could

[cyan geode]

Which in vanilla is all of them

except TT which has no neutrals

[forest hull]

Your saying any person you scumread could be jester

thats not going to happen a lot of the time

espically since TI can check the jester

and out them

which makes jester harder

[gentle pecan]

(they very well could unless mechanically cleared)

[forest hull]

The thing is town of salem is a mechanically based game and you should scumread but not only do that

[gentle pecan]

i love being forced to rely on mechanical checks instead of being social

[forest hull]

if they act like jester the whole game

then check them

its a 1 day delat

they could also claim vigi or mon and get the same result

[gentle pecan]

a day you might not have

[foggy star]

“if they act like jester” so either like any other evil or if they refuse to participate in vfa d2

sure

[gentle pecan]

sometimes you cant even rely on TI

[forest hull]

if you dont participate in vfa then your getting hung

thats kind of a given

[cyan geode]

Yea exactly

[foggy star]

yeah

so guess what

[forest hull]

thats not just acting like jester

[gentle pecan]

so free jesters food

[foggy star]

free jester win

[cyan geode]

you are so close to getting it

[foggy star]

that is genuinely the easiest way to win as jester

besides literally just

outright claiming medium or doctor

[forest hull]

just because jester can win d2 does not validate all your other points lmao

it means jester should be encouraged to play more late game

[foggy star]

why should it

if it can win d2

just like that

[forest hull]

because then if it hits a faction its more balanced

and people avoid it more

[cyan geode]

Fuck, even outright claiming NK isn't safe from potentially being the real deal (Although sometimes you won't get hanged because Town just wants to let NK live and find coven?)

[gentle pecan]

why would jesters risk dying at night

[cyan geode]

The thing is

[forest hull]

coven wont outright lose if 1 member dies lategame

[gentle pecan]

when they can vest n1 and win d2

[cyan geode]

The thing Jester tries to make you avoid

IS BAD

[forest hull]

thats why im saying they should be encouraged

like another vest

and not letting them win d2 or d3

[cyan geode]

The thing Jester tries to make you avoid is scumreading

[gentle pecan]

arbitrary restrictions because poor design

how lovely

[forest hull]

You should be able to scumread jester is the thing

its just harder

[cyan geode]

It makes you rely way too heavily on kill power and mechanical confirmation
Something that in and of itself needs to be reduced

[foggy star]

yeah thats typically a thing ive seen in alot of vanilla aa games ive played

nk or other solo evil gets outted

[gentle pecan]

teach me the ways

[foggy star]

then its “inno. we need coven.”

[gentle pecan]

of knowing every jester

[exotic skiff]

Jester is just a party role, it's not meant for competitive.

[forest hull]

Town of salem is a mechanics based game with social deduction elements

Botc is the opposite

[gentle pecan]

(This is still bad design)

[exotic skiff]

It's not going to get reworked but it shouldn't be a part of serious modes

[forest hull]

we should make it less of a mechanics game

[cyan geode]

*takes a shot*

[forest hull]

if you want that

yhen play another game

[exotic skiff]

It's meant to be social

[cyan geode]

I don't want to play another game, I want ToS to be better

[exotic skiff]

It's a dumb role so just ban it from serious modes

[forest hull]

Changing the genre and base of the game itself is another game

[exotic skiff]

NE in general is just dumb

[gentle pecan]

chat i got this counter to jester

[forest hull]

you can always balance the mechanics

[random cipher]

Jester is one of the hardest roles to rework, because of its sheer purpose lying on the foundation of social deduction and scumreading

[foggy star]

points out something in the game is bad and unhealthy “well if you hate this game so much why dont you play something else”

[gilded briar]

Besides there’s no real competitors to the online SDG market atm

[foggy star]

actually let me fix that

[gentle pecan]

a random player will see the grimoire knowing all jesters

[forest hull]

im not saying that justifys bad design

[gilded briar]

(Rest in peace ToL)

[forest hull]

im sayin we should not change it to be less mechanically reliant

thats the point of town of salem

[gilded briar]

Besides amogus lol

[exotic skiff]

modded among us

[forest hull]

Anyways your entire arguement relys on the point that its impossible to scrumread a jester

just watch more pipetron or smth idk

im done now

[foggy star]

not our entire argument

we pointed out alot of stuff is wrong with jester

and ne as a whole

not just the fact its impossible to scumread

[exotic skiff]

jesters can be an evil faking jester, at a high level it just doesn't work

and vice versa

jesters can fake being a clueless evil

[foggy star]

unfortunately if jest isnt being removed

psuedo np is the best way to go about it

whilst retaining SOME of its identity

[exotic skiff]

how do you make it NP

[foggy star]

go up to the top of the thread

and read it

[cyan geode]

I've played ToS for a combined 3684 hours
I think if there was a reliable way to scumread the difference between Jester and other evils, I would have figured it out by now

[random cipher]

NE is against litteraly everyone in the game, NP is only against Town. youd have to rework it to make it np

[exotic skiff]

this isn't jester, it's a new role that's called "Jester"

[gentle pecan]

what did you think i did to make this pariah lite

[foggy star]

so an overhaul is what youre saying

overhauls typically do that

[exotic skiff]

Overhauls usually keep at least some of the identity of the original role

[cyan geode]

no they don't

[foggy star]

not really

[cyan geode]

that's a rework

[foggy star]

cause its an overhaul

[gentle pecan]

it has all the flavoring

[cyan geode]

Rework keeps the core
Overhaul doesn't

[gentle pecan]

if thats what you’re on about

[foggy star]

they rework it from the ground up

flavour is secondary in nature

so if thats what youre referring to then yeah

[random cipher]

it functions kinda like an enchanter, its incorrect results dont matter much to evils, but it matters much to town because it can cause a mislynch

[gentle pecan]

yes

that is kinda the point

[foggy star]

more deception roles make me happy

cause right now we have enchanter and sc and thats it

[exotic skiff]

still, the jester rework should be a new role entirely

[gentle pecan]

im gonna change doom and jester before i fall asleep

[foggy star]

i think

[gentle pecan]

nope

i want current roles fixed

before new ones

[exotic skiff]

you realize banning jester and adding a new role fills the same purpose right?

[cyan geode]

No it doesn't

[exotic skiff]

It's literally a replacement while the other still exists

[cyan geode]

And you're gonna be like who cares
But I want it out of vanilla AA

The other existing is the problem

I do not want to play with Jester anymore

And AA will never have role bans

So the only way to make it healthy in AA is to rework Jester itself

[exotic skiff]

People are moving to custom lately

[foggy star]

especially when aa has 5 jesters

and in vanilla ti find jest guilty

so its just kinda like

yeah ok

unlucky

[cyan geode]

The most I've seen in AA is 3
But even that is insanse

But even if it's just 1

It's a fuck you moment

[exotic skiff]

AA is a sandbox to begin with, i don't think most people are going to be happy with removing jester

[foggy star]

ive seen 4 doomsayers before and i wish i was joking

[cyan geode]

I had a game with 5 Exes

3 of them won

[foggy star]

im assuming coven had fun that game

[cyan geode]

Lemme find it

[foggy star]

aa should still relatively be balanced

[gentle pecan]

ok so

[foggy star]

of course its not going to be picture perfect balanced as its only really as balanced as the roles in the games are

but making nk and evils in general unique

[gentle pecan]

i have two proposed changes involving win conditions

[foggy star]

is a good start

[random cipher]

how do you make a luck based mode balanced?

[gentle pecan]

for doom and pirate

[foggy star]

lets hear

[exotic skiff]

13/15 people are not gonna care that aa is "balanced"

when it's specifically the worst possible mode you can play rn

[gentle pecan]

1. Doom is reduced to dooming 2 players in total, 1 per night

2. Pirate needs to only plunder two players successfully

[cyan geode]

5 exes

[gentle pecan]

i still want to change pirate punishment

but eh

[foggy star]

mate 70% of vanilla dont care whether the game is objectively balanced or not they just care cause they can press the funny glowing button as vigilante

[old sundial]

@foggy star has leveled up! (25 ➜ 26)

[foggy star]

that isnt a reason not to balance the game

[exotic skiff]

I actually totally forgot about the doom rework that happened earlier where doom only killed one player

lol

[cyan geode]

It's also the only mode you can play in

[exotic skiff]

Custom/RP/TT are active if you can get a group going

[foggy star]

this works

[cyan geode]

"if you can get a group going" being the operative phrase there

[foggy star]

good job gathering 14 people at one time to play town of salem

[gentle pecan]

rare

[foggy star]

and making sure those 14 know how the game works

[cyan geode]

If you just wanna turn on the video game, click a mode, and play at any time, it's AA or bust.

[gilded briar]

honestly if you can group at all you could be better off playing something like botc lol

[exotic skiff]

there are communities specifically for this, I'm being serious rn

[gilded briar]

Like
The appeal of an online sdg is that you can play it without a group

[foggy star]

yeah basically

[gentle pecan]

still they barely queue

especially for their size

[exotic skiff]

then oh well, I will still never join aa again

[gentle pecan]

im in the one for vanilla ranked which has like 450 people

ranked is a dry as a desert

[exotic skiff]

yeah ranked is toast lmao

[gentle pecan]

521*

[foggy star]

ranked and rp is dead until the new season comes along

even then

itll probably die in a week

god genuinely i really hope the new season is good i want an excuse to play this game again

[exotic skiff]

ranked is just spam from what i've seen

[cyan geode]

lol yea

Also I like AA for its unique strengths like not having a guaranteed role list
Which often leads to a ton of deconfirms
But seeing it as just a meme mode and refusing to take it into account as a result cripples its potential

[exotic skiff]

and ranked in tos1 is basically taa in this game, nobody participates or people magically solve the game

[random cipher]

ranked id ead in tos1

i think

[cyan geode]

Ranked is dead in both games

[exotic skiff]

I don't blame people for not enjoying it, I didn't want to join because back then flaming was worse

[random cipher]

people always threw when i did ranked anyways

[cyan geode]

But all this to say

[exotic skiff]

There were people so serious that they said claiming sheriff was a "throw"

[cyan geode]

All this to say, “Ban the garbage role in Ranked and let it get dumped in AA” is not a solution that really helps me

[exotic skiff]

or ask me to change my will in a dime when I didn't have time to type and call it throwing for not doing what they ask

[gentle pecan]

implemented and i have a 3rd change involving jester

[exotic skiff]

Nowadays I can do all of those things but back then I was scared of attempting competitive

[foggy star]

basically

[cyan geode]

Yep.

[gentle pecan]

3. Jester frames are permanent and alterations last until the jester dies

[cyan geode]

I was sad about Pirate getting banned in S1 because I knew what would happen

[gentle pecan]

if its permanent i might bump it up to four players appearing as jester

[valid quest]

huh?

wait

alterations?

wait how will that work

[gentle pecan]

did you read it

that is step one

[valid quest]

no bro

[gentle pecan]

💀

[valid quest]

"they last until jester's death"

how does that wrok?

tos2 can't re-reveal a role??

[gentle pecan]

no like

any players who are alive and framed lose it

while dead players stay appearing as jester

[valid quest]

oh k

@gentle pecan anyway this is based

[strong torrent]

isn't that what Neutral Special is for

NEs are for actually balanced modes

[exotic skiff]

I just realized this is NE soul collector

[foggy star]

making neutral chaos would just end up as neutral special 2.0

ns should be role and alignment shit but pirate being in there throws a whole wrench

[finite mauve]

is there a reason for pirate to exist in btos 2 besides the fact it's in vanilla

the fact it's neutral special already goes to show it's not the best designed role

[foggy star]

they just dont want to delete roles i believe

cause if they wanted to id believe pirate would be in the gutter right now

the nerf does like

very little to fix pirate at all

no matter how you put it rps is dogshit

and even for taa its not fun

[gentle pecan]

in the thread i made to delete pirate curtis said it was something about people using it

chilledchaos or whoever

[foggy star]

i just really beg that pirate doesnt stay as an rps meme role

[gentle pecan]

yeah

[pale wigeon]

Tbh I’m coming up with a rework to make pirate a proper NS

[foggy star]

if they want they could reflavour pirate and turn it into inquisitor for vanilla

objectively thats like miles better

[gentle pecan]

then what for modded

[foggy star]

idk

but its a start i guess

[gentle pecan]

it shouldnt change inbetween versions tbh

[cyan geode]

And the worst part is it still wouldn't be that good

[foggy star]

unfortunately

[gentle pecan]

inquis is more redeemable than current pirate

[foggy star]

i mean

pirate is probably like as low as the bar can go

[cyan geode]

yeah

[finite mauve]

at the very least it would be not rng based which is a good step

[gentle pecan]

why is the lowest bar the hardest one to replace 😔

[foggy star]

i wouldnt mind if this pirate version got added in its place

[gentle pecan]

(its not good but atleast its tries to be something decent)

[cyan geode]

The model of balance changes that this game has in vanilla, frankly does not allow for half-measure bullshit.

Any rework has to get across the finish line in one go

Or it'll be stuck like that for a season at minimum

[foggy star]

this is why im praying for on season changes

off season exclusive balance changes were such a poorly thought out method

[cyan geode]

Even if on-season changes get greenlit I have my doubts that a role is gonna get reworked during a season

and an overhaul? Forget it

[gentle pecan]

better than no chance

[foggy star]

even if its tweaks to a role i wouldnt mind it

[gentle pecan]

atleast I can dream

heres the deal though

ranked is dead

[foggy star]

no way im gonna expect them to do an overhaul during the season though

[gentle pecan]

why do I, the common player give a shit

[cyan geode]

I know

[gentle pecan]

if no one is playing ranked

wont affect rp

who cares

[cyan geode]

Ranked players don't care because they want their changes now
AA players don't care because their mode doesn't have a seasonal cycle

But I still think it's unrealistic to get like
A role reworked once a month

or some shiz like that

BToS2 does not have a seasonal embargo and even there the changes are not that fast

[gentle pecan]

(well curtis is working on vanilla and tuba is doing both)

[cyan geode]

You would still have to come to terms with the fact that the big changes (the reworks and overhauls) are coming once a season, and they can't be half-assed

You can't settle for tweaks if a role is really bad

You're not gonna get a repeat of Coroner's incremental rise to an okay role

[gentle pecan]

didnt the change to cut open stoned corpses take 4 months

[cyan geode]

yea lol

the very last change in said incremental rise

was blocked by the seasonal embargo

[foggy star]

god

[gentle pecan]

(hence why it should go)

[cyan geode]

Yeah I'm not out here defending it

I'm just saying that lifting it, as necessary as it is, will not suddenly make the pace of improving the game lightning fast

[wild hill]

whenever someone mentions that pirate is awful because rps i always have a brain fart, forget that rps means rock paper scissors, see rp, and think that people genuinely think pirate is terribly designed just because people rp as the pirate

[brisk iron]

w antitoqn

[cloud monolith]

I give this a 5/10, i agree with half but disagree with half

(Actually you get a dislike for the shitty doom rework)

[gentle pecan]

ok

[still bramble]

It's really not as easy as you might think

[gentle pecan]

?

[still bramble]

Coming up with a rework for Doom that can work

[gentle pecan]

its kinda meh

not the hardest to rework since it has a particularly easy mechanic

[bright token]

Oooo what is this

[still bramble]

It's coming up with a rework that's fair. I was refering to the person above you,

[gentle pecan]

my take on a neutral evil overhaul

[cloud monolith]

Doom doesnt need a rework

Doom is fine

[gentle pecan]

i spent like an hour on this so its probably not the best

[bright token]

Doomsayer is um

[still bramble]

You never got your whole team nuked in one night?

[gentle pecan]

I don’t want doom to be so unfun to play as

[cloud monolith]

Doom isnt unfun youre just using it wrong

L stay mad

[bright token]

Doomsayer is my favorite role personally

I dont really know what needs to be changed

[cloud monolith]

And thats a smart man

[bright token]

im probably bias but like oh well

[gentle pecan]

swinging the game from one side to the other is dumb

[cloud monolith]

Only smart people like doom

[cloud monolith]

Remove vet then

[valid quest]

stop it

[cloud monolith]

Remove retri then

Remove coven then

[gentle pecan]

sure

[cloud monolith]

Remove hex then

Remove every role

[valid quest]

retri is anti-swing?

[cloud monolith]

Remove every role

[still bramble]

Play a game as Coven/Apoc where 3 members of your team die at once by Doomsayer

[cloud monolith]

If you find that so dumb

Then remove every role

[valid quest]

???

bro

[gentle pecan]

please find a better argument

[cloud monolith]

Just get better

[valid quest]

are you high?

[cloud monolith]

And dont be caught by scumreading

[cloud monolith]

Yes

[still bramble]

You're trolling

[valid quest]

yeah no you're trolling

lmao

[still bramble]

I won't even fall for the ragebait

[bright token]

While im a sayer for the doomsayer

[cloud monolith]

Im not

Im serious

[valid quest]

@gentle pecan literal rage bait

don't even

[gentle pecan]

im here talking

i will see it

[bright token]

I think doomsayer shouldnt be allowed to knock off one faction

completely

[gentle pecan]

yeah

[cloud monolith]

Remove dooms achievements then

Remove them rn

Remove it

[gentle pecan]

sure

[bright token]

Sure

[valid quest]

sure

LOL

[cloud monolith]

Sure

[old sundial]

@cloud monolith has leveled up! (16 ➜ 17)

[bright token]

their achievements are trash anyway

[valid quest]

or like

[gentle pecan]

this is btos2 i dont care about achievements

[cloud monolith]

Actually dooms achievements are too easy

[valid quest]

replace them

[cloud monolith]

They should be removed lowkey

[gentle pecan]

new ones can be made

[valid quest]

like

[gentle pecan]

basically removing them

[valid quest]

trickster's achievements got replaced

cl's achievements got replaced

[valid quest]

no?

removing an achievement and replacing one

is different

[bright token]

Anarchy

• Doom a Town Killing, Coven Killing, Neutral Killing

yw

[valid quest]

because replacing it means you still have the achievement

[bright token]

Let me cook again

[valid quest]

and that more people can get it later

removing it would mean

no one has the achievement

no one can get the achievement

and you lost the achievement

if you had one

[gentle pecan]

yeah i dont care enough to explain why replacing them is essentially the same as deleting them

[cloud monolith]

But im done talking here this suggestion is not good to say the least
Doom is completely fine you just need to play better as an evil. If your whole team is getting killed by doomsayer then your team is full of dumbasses

[valid quest]

it's not

or you got luckily guessed n2 ranked

but that's a base game issue

[gentle pecan]

insert lets go gambling 3 coven .mp4

[cloud monolith]

Get better

L someones salty they died to doom n3

[gentle pecan]

what

can your arguments not be personal attacks

or is that too much

[bright token]

some idiots full claimed bg and trickster and I guessed their asses so quick with the revealed mayor

[cloud monolith]

Thats not a role issue thats a player issue

[still bramble]

Umm no

[gentle pecan]

i don’t know what to say if you arent trolling

[bright token]

Lesson: Dont claim d2 because you feel like it

[valid quest]

ngl right
give doomsayer a one time "observe"
either they get 3 possible town roles of what they might be
Or it's just a np reveal of an evil

unless you can doom TI?

[gentle pecan]

no

im gonna say no dooming ti

i probably forgot that

[valid quest]

ok then yeah why not give doom observe?

observe is the name im using because...

erm...

no reason :3

[bright token]

Solution: Transform ne back to nb

[valid quest]

cough

no reason at all

cough

[valid quest]

no

no

NO

[gentle pecan]

not happening

[valid quest]

...

why?

[gentle pecan]

Roleguessers dont need abilities to gain information

simple as

[still bramble]

I take you're unfamiliar, or refuse to be familiar with this example? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3l4Hg_Wg18

[valid quest]

i mean your kinda fucking weak + your wincon relies on upping 2 people aswell

[valid quest]

@gentle pecan

[gentle pecan]

no?

[still bramble]

Exhibit A: Killing 3/4 Coven N1

[gentle pecan]

lmao?

[valid quest]

do i not understand how doom's wincon work?

[gentle pecan]

you dont need to vote people up

[still bramble]

Imagine you're Coven in this situation

[gentle pecan]

you just need to guess two players

[valid quest]

oh

ok so wait then like

[gentle pecan]

if they get voted up they just die

[valid quest]

...

ok now that's weak

[gentle pecan]

nothing to your wincon

[valid quest]

in another way

unless you do it on really sussy townies

but you don't have to

easy asf to guess the confirms

that will never be upped

[gentle pecan]

astral unstoppable attacks on the revealed town power shouldnt be taken lightly

ok but another thing is

[valid quest]

yeah gl upping the tpow