The Daily Rework Discussion Thread

[dry jungle]

and that most evils are immune to their own medicine

[pallid crystal]

you and your wacky emojis

[lucid cairn]

Most of the negative stuff you can redirect mainly helped other evils

[lucid cairn]

Get over it

[pallid crystal]

what

[fallen crag]

You can select the same player twice in a row; however, someone cannot receive the accompanied effects from an admirer twice in a row regardless of who does it

Not sure why it’s not on the role card

But check the keywords, it might be there

[polar cloud]

I assumed it was.a bug since crus cant chain visits

But now that I think about it crus is hard to disrupt

[fallen crag]

Nah admirer can select someone twice in a row it's intentional

But yea people have individual accompany cooldowns

It's like how Tav/Pois can select people multiple nights in a row, even though they are hungover

[polar cloud]

And its shared between admis right

[fallen crag]

Mhm

It's pretty much like they give an invisible hungover effect

Which only blocks accompanies

[polar cloud]

Lovehover

[fallen crag]

LUL

fr

Lovesick? shrug

[polar cloud]

But ngl admi seems fine on paper

[polar cloud]

Darn that is a good name

[fallen crag]

Tbf tho, giving a status effect was avoided since Admirer has enough keywords going on LUL

[polar cloud]

But in practice its niche and unrelkabke

[fallen crag]

I'm just not sure of the "admirer can block effects" thing anymore

[polar cloud]

Safe accompany bestow?

[fallen crag]

We have Crus already who does this, admirer is a bit of a neutered version with the application that it prevents astral visits

But I think it's just conceptually not fun to play or play against

[polar cloud]

I mean pretty sure trapper got the same amount

Build trap dismantle

[fallen crag]

Yuh

[polar cloud]

Yeah tbf Im starting to think making admi a town buffer was maybe the wrong idea

[fallen crag]

It's more like an evil nerfer atm

Which are nnnot great

[polar cloud]

I also dont like how admi cant do much against frames

[fallen crag]

This is the thing tho

It's just not a fun concept to play against

And so it was tough to go the full way with it

[limpid bane]

why can admi / tav even double visit

[polar cloud]

Tav so they can die to vet more easily trust

[limpid bane]

that just confirms them as non baker

[fallen crag]

Can they?

[limpid bane]

yes

ive roleblocked the same guy 2x in a row as tav to confirm myself as not famine

[fallen crag]

scooby doo confused noise

Oh right

[fallen crag]

Sorry I interpreted this as like a seer visit LUL

[limpid bane]

yeah i worded it terribly

sorry

[fallen crag]

Allg

Yeah I get that tho

[gaunt cipher]

like 50 of mine got added

anyways admirer is most fun when you can fake tpow with no consequences cause the role basically does nothing

you can't do that anymore

[dry jungle]

oop which ones? I know I'm Your Traitor and Blood Night was yours

[gaunt cipher]

apoc jr v1/v2 IYT BN memorial day the hunt

I think that's it or I'm misremembering the rest idk

[dry jungle]

Ah alr

[gaunt cipher]

also weren't we doing oracle next

[dry jungle]

Oracle was alr done yesterday it just got delayed with people still wanting to do TI

So I guess Cleric/Crusader for today?

[gaunt cipher]

not entirely

.

we talked about oracle for 20 mins max lol

[grand ocean]

yeah, we'll come back to Orac

dw

If yall want to skip TI for now uh
Ima just yeet a poll here, we only have one TI left though

[grand ocean]

Oracle (Again)

[lucid cairn]

Hate Oracle

[grand ocean]

why do you think i posted it

[grave gust]

Who would have thought that town rit sucks to play as

[sinful sequoia]

oracle really does just serves little to no purpose

[polar cloud]

murder them

[sinful sequoia]

its only useful if you have like a few confirmed roles or a confirmed tpow on a list

other then that you can just spam seer and jailor the rest of the game

[light hollow]

Yep

Oracle lacks an identity

It’s a Cleric with slightly different targeting

And an indecisive clause

That’s it

[sinful sequoia]

i think #1299048123003310090 message is a decent solution

i see alot of people suggesting it be put on crusader instead but eh

[gaunt cipher]

holy shit return of temporary

[lucid cairn]

Yeah

[grand ocean]

post a TP :3

[dry jungle]

Bodyguard

[limpid bane]

#1293975469976453171

:3

[dry jungle]

I think I like Fresh's Rework, Temporary's or Nuggy's the best though Nuggy's Spirit of a Warrior feel like it could fit on another role (COUGH COUGH medium)

[limpid bane]

nuggys is objectively worse cleric

since you don’t kill anyone but yourself

[dry jungle]

I just added BoTC Lycan onto mine and called it a day 💀

[sinful sequoia]

the spirit of the warrior addition just seems kinda

eh???

[dry jungle]

I like it! It just doesn't fit a TP though

It's more TS energy if anything

[sinful sequoia]

from what ik what it does is allow you vote upon death and protect beyond the grave

right

[dry jungle]

I think nuggy removed the voting cause people had a problem with it

But protection yeah

[sinful sequoia]

it is just worse cleric then as lagspikes said

[limpid bane]

you lose ability

[sinful sequoia]

even if you added the voting back i still wouldnt like it though tbf

[limpid bane]

which means its just worse cleric

you’d rather have an alive guy

[sinful sequoia]

#1287899997492482129 message
#1287640310003793992 message

i cant find temporarys bg

[limpid bane]

this is his from the cts

Bodyguard (Town Protective)

Attack: Powerful
Defense: None

Abilities:

• Guard a player's house at night, redirecting Attacks on them to yourself and counterattacking Attackers.
• Equip Armor while Guarding, granting yourself Basic Defense.

Attributes:

• If two Bodyguards ever attempt to redirect the same attack, the one with the lower number will take priority.

Guard (Night | ♾️)

• Guard a player at night, redirecting all direct attacks aimed at them to you and downgrading redirected attack strengths to Basic.
• You do not redirect Astral Attacks.
• You will deal an Astral Powerful Attack to any Attackers you redirect.

Armor (2)

• Equip Armor while Guarding, granting yourself Basic Defense against all Redirected attacks for the night.

[sinful sequoia]

i dont really like fresh' bg walks over trapper too much

[dry jungle]

Yeah Temporary's works best here

[sinful sequoia]

plus you learn the identity of the attacker ??

[limpid bane]

if they live

well

if both of you live

anyways id rather bg with one hit but doesnt die as a result

[sinful sequoia]

also it can only guard one attack if im reading it correctly

oh wait

[limpid bane]

it guards all

[sinful sequoia]

im referring to fresh' i thought that can only guard against one attack clause was only being able to successfuly use guard once 💀

ok uh let me read this one

[sinful sequoia]

yeah sure this is fine

astral powerful tho?

[limpid bane]

thats uh

so you arent seen by lo murdering the guy

that attacked your target

(its literally the same as now)

[sinful sequoia]

oh

[grave gust]

tbh I likes lagspikes trapper and BG rework

the most

[grand ocean]

didnt we just like
do BG
eh who cares go wild

[dry jungle]

I think Apoc Arso tried to but they got ignored

so were doing it again

[polar cloud]

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1287802309249732700

[lucid cairn]

Two nights seems excessive for being injured

[limpid bane]

I want it to still be a very devastating blow to NK for hitting the BG target

and not have them flat out lose

[lucid cairn]

Missing out on three kills is way too punishing though

Plus there are some words that contradict each other

[limpid bane]

probably

[polar cloud]

I dont see whats wrong?

BG gets permanently INJURED instead of dying, and surviving attackers get temporary INJURED

(the caps arent meant to be rude I just cant do keywords properly on phone)

[lucid cairn]

Oh I got them mixed up

Sigh

Well now okay I have another issue

[polar cloud]

The first instance of each color could be deleted tho

since the keyword already explains that it doesnt go away when its self applied

[lucid cairn]

Bodyguard being permanently injured is stupid

[polar cloud]

I prefer my version of injured ngl

[lucid cairn]

I'll look at it

[timber phoenix]

Random spitball idea you can sacrifice a vest to un-injure yourself (probably bad)

[polar cloud]

You should heal yourself NOW

[timber phoenix]

What if it only attacked the first time and then always applies injured instead of attacking (maybe bg also getting a temporary injure)

[lucid cairn]

Hmm

Not punishing towards the Bodyguard, and less punishing for the attacker

It is unlikely that you'll protect from the same attacker twice, especially since Coven can pass the Necronomicon

[gaunt cipher]

ye

[gaunt cipher]

it will still kill the coven

[limpid bane]

people dont like it dying

becoming a villager is a preferable option

[gaunt cipher]

^

dying is worse than not having an ability anymore

[grave gust]

What if cleric goes on an injured BG?

Or admirer when BG gets the protect off

[gaunt cipher]

self caused effects

arent prevented by safe

cleric doesnt prevent safe so it wouldnt do anything

[grave gust]

K

[gaunt cipher]

simple

[limpid bane]

TP doesnt block it

[lucid cairn]

I was mainly talking about Coven Leader

[lucid cairn]

When it comes to punishment, absolutely

But losing the ability to do anything for playing well is not rewarding for the player

[limpid bane]

would you rather be dead though

[lucid cairn]

And no, a role running out of charges is not the same thing

It's comparing shit to ass

I would rather have something better

[polar cloud]

yeah the plan isnt to kill the attacker yourself, its to prevent them from hiding since anyone visiting them would be informed that they are injured

[lucid cairn]

Oh?

Oh I missed that, hmm

[polar cloud]

the attack is a bonus that realistically speaking shouldnt cone into playu often

[lucid cairn]

Oh, interesting

I think the wounds is... interesting

It kind of turns people into an investigative thing with them

And the checks are foolproof and cover a wide amount of people

I'd have to see how it would work in testing

[polar cloud]

yeah I called it town exposers since there isnt a better word for it

you apply a debuff to the evils that helps town instead

[lucid cairn]

Mhm

[tacit cliff]

One message removed from a suspended account.

One message removed from a suspended account.

[polar cloud]

Basic bitch

there is nothing special about cleric

its just "Gain powerful defence for the night and poison immunity"

its boring yet its necessary

[limpid bane]

heres a problem with cleric

trickster is better than cleric in every conceivable way since it blocks rampages

[polar cloud]

CTS trick :

my beloved

[timber phoenix]

What does CTS trick change again

[limpid bane]

pick two players visit the first

if the first is attacked redirect attack to the second

with similar restrictions to current trick

[polar cloud]

I have a trick rework that remove the TP aspect

but CTS trick is superior

[timber phoenix]

Trick now just duplicates the attack without blocking it

[polar cloud]

correct

[limpid bane]

honestly

sure

[polar cloud]

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1295566801626726431

[timber phoenix]

hmm

I feel like this would be a strictly worse vigi most of the time (you're probably more likely to grab a generic coven attack) but at the same time... vigilante

[polar cloud]

Vig deserve a nerf

[timber phoenix]

Still feels strictly worse than most vigi nerfs I've seen

[sinful sequoia]

i know this was talked about before in here but itd be alot more fun if there werent tps littered around everywhere and town actually had to use their heads to get the coven to make bad plays

just putting it here cause were discussing cleric and cleric is pretty much just

baseline simple tp

[polar cloud]

On paper it got infinite KP if it can predict who gets killed
On practice itll prob get an average of 1-2 kills per game

which is good

I was considering allowing it to deploy multiple mirrors at once

[lucid cairn]

Needs the same thing as Crusader where it can't protect the same person consecutively

Other than that it's good

[pallid crystal]

Uh no

It really doesn't

[lucid cairn]

Yes it does as chains are unhealthy

[cosmic quail]

Chains are also really rare in ToS2

At least in vanilla

[pallid crystal]

Chains barely happen

[cosmic quail]

I don’t think I’ve seen a TP chain in recent years

It happens a lot in ToS1 for some reason but not here

[lucid cairn]

Yeah but whenever they do happen they're really unfair to play against if you don't have the roles that counter them

[pallid crystal]

Genuine skill issue

[lucid cairn]

Well no

[cosmic quail]

Ah yes

As SK I should have played better and been able to kill the two Clerics protecting each other

[pallid crystal]

Bloodlust

[lucid cairn]

Baby

[limpid bane]

theres a lot more ways to power through them

[lucid cairn]

Bloodlust doesn't kill either of them if they're on each other

[sinful sequoia]

not a very good excuse

cleric is already a consistently fine tp theres no need to give it chains as chains are just inherently unhealthy

[limpid bane]

indecisive protectives

[sinful sequoia]

and no you cant rely on a poisoner or a starspawn spawning

[lucid cairn]

If two people are willing to glue themselves to each other the whole game then they're probably going to vouch for one another if one is accused, so pushing one of them is more risky than normal

[pallid crystal]

Most times you can easily prevent one

Poisoner
Necromancer (depending on corpses and or the chain)
Ritualist
Baker
Starspawn
Auditor

[cosmic quail]

And NK can go fuck themselves?

(Besides Arso)

[limpid bane]

again you need a wallbreaker or horseman to bypass tp chains

[lucid cairn]

Nice, 4 roles out of like 24

[limpid bane]

consistently the theme so yeah

[pallid crystal]

Yeah I guess

[limpid bane]

(not a good answer)

[sinful sequoia]

the serial killer staring at the unbreakable cleric and crusader chain

[pallid crystal]

Erm actually

[lucid cairn]

Serial Killer can't break it if they're on each other

[pallid crystal]

Well yeah but crus can't go on same person in a row

[sinful sequoia]

can it not?

[lucid cairn]

Oh wait this is modded

[sinful sequoia]

good lol

[lucid cairn]

Oh

[pallid crystal]

Wtf else would it be

[lucid cairn]

That's exactly my point

[cosmic quail]

Double Cleric chains are unbreakable still

[lucid cairn]

Serial Killer can bypass it because Crusader has that thing I want for Cleric

[cosmic quail]

And any TP chain without Crusader still requires SK with Bloodlust or WW

[sinful sequoia]

cleric chains you need to beg to the rng gods for a good spawn

[pallid crystal]

Unbreakable is a exaggeration

[cosmic quail]

So basically “to be Arsonist”

[lucid cairn]

It is for Serial Killer

And Werewolf

[cosmic quail]

Since we’re talking NKs

[lucid cairn]

And Shroud

[sinful sequoia]

yeah

or if were talking cov

[pallid crystal]

NKs aren't the best balanced anyways

[sinful sequoia]

pray for a pois or astral nomicon holder

[lucid cairn]

Then let's makes them better

[polar cloud]

Indecisive protective should be on for every tp ngl

[sinful sequoia]

or conj so you can waste your beloved meteorite

[lucid cairn]

Except Trapper yeah

[cosmic quail]

And NKs need help from the outside environment to make them not as shitty

[polar cloud]

Trapper already cant target the same guy two nights in a row lmao

[pallid crystal]

Breaking the chains that never happen is not the way to do that

[cosmic quail]

Like Death notes existing ruins NKs
So much powerful attack existing ruins NKs

[lucid cairn]

Well yeah

[sinful sequoia]

i dont have the secret killers emoji so im gonna recreate it

[lucid cairn]

Just because something is rare doesn't mean it isn't problematic

[sinful sequoia]

㊙️ 🔪

[cosmic quail]

Secret tunnel!

Through the mountains!

[pallid crystal]

Yes but if there was a 1/1000000000000000 chance of you instantly winning a game instantly on D1 I don't think you'd care

[raw tangle]

Hi cleric aka fulldoctor my
Erm. Beloved?

[cosmic quail]

The concern is

[pallid crystal]

Rarity absolutely effects how problematic something is

[cosmic quail]

I agree

Hence why I bitch about NA cap in vanilla but not so much about non-unique neutrals

However

Something being less problematic because it is rarer doesn’t make it fine

[lucid cairn]

Yes but it's not rare enough to not be a concern, and it also depends on the concern itself

When it does happen it's a bitch and a half

[pallid crystal]

I have never seen a chain in TOS2 or BTOS2

[lucid cairn]

It's been toxic to play against since the beginning

[pallid crystal]

🤷‍♂️

[limpid bane]

look harder

[raw tangle]

Honestly besides “make cleric indecisive lol” im not sure what to say about it
Not really being able to consistently get around it is more of a “coven lacks the tools” thing

[lucid cairn]

I only have like 20 games played so that's embarrassing on your part

[raw tangle]

I will fight anecdote with anecdote
I have

[pallid crystal]

Explains why your reworks are so shit

You barely have games played

[lucid cairn]

I don't post the good ones

Also I will not stand for that

Be kind or be quiet, thanks

[cosmic quail]

Coven and NK lack the tools
But also
Do you think we should put TP-breaking tools on every killing role just in case they need to get past a TP chain?

[pallid crystal]

Yeah right

[cosmic quail]

And would that not make TP substantially worse?

[raw tangle]

Not really

[limpid bane]

every NK bypassing TP would be kinda dumb

[raw tangle]

Honestly im more of the opinion that the issue is tons of TP spawning rather than an individual role on that front.

[cosmic quail]

RT slots have to exist

[pallid crystal]

But they do need something

[raw tangle]

Yes

I know

[sinful sequoia]

yes

[cosmic quail]

Yeah that’s what I’m saying

[sinful sequoia]

unfortunately yes

[pallid crystal]

That something is not indecisive town protectives

[sinful sequoia]

i said this earlier

[raw tangle]

I also agree every NK bypassing TP would be dumb

I am not advocating for this 😭

[cosmic quail]

Instead of every NK (and Coven role!) having TP breaking tools, you should address the problem with TP chains directly

[lucid cairn]

You're welcome to go look in the official server but your opinion of what you think is good or bad means less than nothing to me

[sinful sequoia]

but if there was substantially less tp in the game people would actually need to be smart with throwing coven off instead of

quick all tp on seer

[raw tangle]

Which considering mystic, I did say in the initial post “make cleric indecisive”

To address the chain issue

[pallid crystal]

Cleric doesn't need any changes imo

[lucid cairn]

And you're wrong

[pallid crystal]

Indecisive town protectives makes it WAY too easy to kill TPOW

[limpid bane]

crackhead solution but nk win at 3p left (bad idea)

[cosmic quail]

Lmao

[raw tangle]

Skill issue dont claim tpow

[cosmic quail]

Just skip the kingmaker 4Head

[pallid crystal]

We love dying n1 as mayor

[limpid bane]

kingmakers are bad anyways

[lucid cairn]

Natural ones are bound to happen unfortunately

[raw tangle]

Grats you’ve found my solution to NK
However I also dont run 15p NK I usually put them in at around 20p

[limpid bane]

game size is an issue

yeah

[raw tangle]

Putting this in for 15p is rough owie

[cosmic quail]

15P is itself rough owie

[sinful sequoia]

would it hurt game balance to increase the player count of each game to like

16

[polar cloud]

tf is rough woke

[raw tangle]

Not really

[cosmic quail]

16’s not enough

[raw tangle]

But

[cosmic quail]

Autocorrect hates me.

[raw tangle]

I think optimal tos is 18p

[lucid cairn]

I think it's a lot better than 15

[polar cloud]

eh fair

[cosmic quail]

16 ain’t enough

[polar cloud]

16 is good because you can divide it by 8

[pallid crystal]

How

[limpid bane]

18-20p but uh

the issue is the playerbase

[cosmic quail]

4 Coven + NE/NP/NK doesn’t fit in 16

[limpid bane]

isn’t big enough

[sinful sequoia]

i think the only problem with 18-20 is just the amount of players in tos

[lucid cairn]

Why are you replying to just me and not the other people who spoke first? 😭

[raw tangle]

Because i blocked him

[lucid cairn]

Oh you're so smart for that

[pallid crystal]

Because you're saying it like It would fix all the problems in ToS2

[sinful sequoia]

youre spreading it too thin then i feel like

i think 16-18 is a fine compromise for that

[lucid cairn]

I mean, no, it would help

[pallid crystal]

15p is clearly fine

[lucid cairn]

"Clearly"?

[pallid crystal]

We do not need to overhaul the whole game

[raw tangle]

Obviously there are more problems than just playercount but
Playercount going up would make stuff like jackals, triple trouble, NK etc fit in so much better

[polar cloud]

Yeah ngl Jackal feels like it was designed for 20p games

[raw tangle]

Idr what the playercount cap for wolvesville is but im not sure jackal had a ton of thought put into it

[lucid cairn]

It's 16

[raw tangle]

Because uh
Jackal in wolvesville spawns from a town slot

[lucid cairn]

I remember the 4x4 grid of players

[raw tangle]

(It’s an evolution of cupid which is town usually)

So uh
Jackal was kind of just. Awkwardly designed

But I have run 20p Jackal and it is so much smoother

[limpid bane]

https://tenor.com/view/skeleton-gif-26826812

[sinful sequoia]

jackal is kind of just a weird design to fit in this game

[pallid crystal]

Why do you think that?

[sinful sequoia]

necessary rules needing to be put around it to prevent foul play

[raw tangle]

Yeah but thats a fundamental jackal issue

[pallid crystal]

I think definitely the rules for jackal are not defined

[raw tangle]

Anyway with cleric uhhh

Odd statement incoming but
I’m not sure if cleric didnt set the bar too high for TP?

Like if I look at vanilla all the competing TP at least try to be “worse at protecting but I have KP” (I say try because crusader is not worse)

[pallid crystal]

Crusader is worse cleric because 10/10 times you will kill town

[sinful sequoia]

i mean consistent powerful def will usually be hard to compete with

[polar cloud]

ngl I dont like how it gives Powerful

but its needed because of Bers being a factional Powerful

[limpid bane]

bers bad

why does it still have powerful and dn

[polar cloud]

I really dont mind some NK being able to murder a protected target ngl

[raw tangle]

Well okay
Doctor/Cleric has always given Powerful
Its clear Powerful attacks aren’t actually meant to be strongmans

[pallid crystal]

Apocalypse are clearly not meant to be a faction that's why berserker is like that

[limpid bane]

i would say all apoc bad but lazy

[limpid bane]

hence why they need to pick between make it a faction or neutral killing

or both somehow

[pallid crystal]

prior to all 4 apoc being able to spawn outside of 4HM bers was a NK basically

[sinful sequoia]

meh i dont really know

i feel like currently with the game now its kinda needed cause then you fuck over some nk (sk shroud) and dont fuck over others (arso ww) so it feels like luck of the draw

[raw tangle]

Fun part about tos is that like
Strongmans in this game tend to manifest as extra KP rather than empowering the existing attack

[sinful sequoia]

id like it if all nk had the chance to get a powerful attack

not in the way that sk did it but that opportunity should be there

[limpid bane]

ideally the coven strongmans become that because look at how generating extra kills are

[raw tangle]

I think the smarter way to implement it is some kind of status that prevents protection but doesnt nuke innate defense

[limpid bane]

chaos list thing if anything but it’d be nice yeah

[sinful sequoia]

mhm

[raw tangle]

Monarch throws this off somewhat but eh

[sinful sequoia]

and also just lists where theres one extra nk added for spice

[limpid bane]

would monarch count

as innate

[pallid crystal]

Obviously

[raw tangle]

You can feasibly change monarch to just basic defense heal itself every night with a knight alive

[limpid bane]

I think evils should have to play around the monarch

and not murder it in the night

since thats its only thing going for it

[pallid crystal]

Monarch is barely a TPOW

[raw tangle]

Eh fair enough
Vote manipulation weak

[limpid bane]

better than mayor

[pallid crystal]

Monarch wouldn't be better than mayor if mayor had that stupid defense clause removed

[limpid bane]

monarch would still be better

[raw tangle]

I have thought about this before
I’m sorta convinced rn that there should be two separate buckets for tpow to avoid straining design space

[limpid bane]

monarch doesnt have alarm bells screaming its role to ritualists, doomsayers and conjurers

[pallid crystal]

The only reason you think that is the basic defense

[limpid bane]

town executive and town authority

[pallid crystal]

Never liked those bucket ideas

[limpid bane]

you cant feasibly set jailor apart from mayor though

[pallid crystal]

TPOW bucket is innately a swingy bucket but splitting is not how you undo that

[raw tangle]

I mean
Yes actually it is

Because then if you want a TPow with KP you use the correct bucket for it

This way you can also feasibly ensure there’s exactly 1 KP TPow per game without directly setting one on a list

[pallid crystal]

I feel like a lot of people here just want to rework for the sake of reworking

When the role doesn't even need it

[sinful sequoia]

not really

[lucid cairn]

That is not correct

[cosmic quail]

Or having to ban Mayor/Mon

Neither of which really work as solutions for AA as much as people don’t want to hear it

(But I also don’t think Vanilla will ever codify two distinct TPow buckets because they don’t want to move roles)

[raw tangle]

Which is certainly unfortunate because I think it opens up design space

But ye

[cosmic quail]

Does it tho?

In the absence of that

You have to decide whether TPow that kill or TPow that don’t is the standard
And if you can’t design enough roles to fill one of those slots,
You certainly can’t design enough roles to fill both

[raw tangle]

I mean ill put it this way I’d say “Jailor (possibly nerfed), Marshal and vanilla Prosecutor” would be enough on its own to fill its own bucket. Not that this is an amazing example because lmao marshal and prosecutor, but I don’t think you really need a ton of roles in this bucket.

For the no KP tpow there is in fact untapped potential I’d argue that isn’t super feasible with the current bucket because any new roles introduced would be competing with the KP TPows. Without them they’re competing with Monarch and Mayor (and ig BToS2 Pros), which is a far easier power budget to work with.

[cosmic quail]

You could, in theory, rework the killing TPow to fit a non-killing TPow standard

Or vice versa

Since the roles that don’t fit would need to be overhauled anyway, it doesn’t matter what they once were

[raw tangle]

If you rework the KP tpow to non-killing roles then I predict lists run into the issue where town kind of just doesn’t have the KP anymore to match up with the current town to scum ratios
I guess this is fixable then by lowering the amount of scum in the game but then people complain as inevitably neutrals dont fit on lists anymore

If you go vice versa I think you end up running into the roles functioning incredibly similarly

Especially when well. One KP tpow is a dayvig and one is a nightvig

[cosmic quail]

It’s not the amount of scum

[raw tangle]

😔

[cosmic quail]

It’s that Coven kill power is also insane

Town definitely has the kill power

[raw tangle]

Righto, but even if that gets reduced lists are 10v5 which is scumsided

[cosmic quail]

Vigilante still has three shots

[limpid bane]

people will also complain if this gets nerfed

[cosmic quail]

I mean Coven kill power in terms of KPN

Not in terms of how many Coven there are

Several Coven members can produce their own extra kills

[limpid bane]

[raw tangle]

(Although i think the standard in vanilla is 9v6? I haven’t looked at the ranked list in a while)

[cosmic quail]

Yeah

[limpid bane]

9v6 with ne and nk

[cosmic quail]

Because they have 4 coven + NE/NK

A ranked list with NE/NP/NK requires more players it will not work

But I digress

The real problem with TPow that lacks kills

Is how you prevent TK from just outclassing it

[raw tangle]

Yeah thats. An argument for the people who think neutrals in ranked need to exist

[limpid bane]

they want mayor banned for pretty much being so bad compared to say marshal

[cosmic quail]

Since as you mentioned earlier

Town would have much less KP

You’d almost rely more on Vigi than Mayor

[sinful sequoia]

its gonna be really sad if they do cause that means jinx rit are still as bullshit as ever

[raw tangle]

You would, in fact, also need to go on and nerf TK (under the assumption all TPow lose KP)

[sinful sequoia]

coven should not have the chance to get more then 1kpn consistently

[limpid bane]

i honestly dont think they know whats good or not

they want poison to keep existing

[cosmic quail]

Which I want to do anyways.

[limpid bane]

some of them like hangman

[sinful sequoia]

alot of people in the community arent really big on balancing

[cosmic quail]

But it might not be enough

[raw tangle]

Oh yeah no I agree the TK in this game are something

[sinful sequoia]

id argue like

eh

80%?

are kinda just casuals who dont care that much for balancing

[cosmic quail]

I’m one of like 12 people who gives a fuck about AA balance so I would guess higher than that

[sinful sequoia]

and dont like change all that much

[limpid bane]

atleast like 5 people in the 500 man ranked server care about balance

[sinful sequoia]

maybe even 90%

[limpid bane]

and two dont play vanilla ranked i think

[sinful sequoia]

thatd be fair

[limpid bane]

95% minimum

[raw tangle]

Yeah I kinda get it
I realize im kind of the exception because I’ve done a lot of social deduction design

But I do have to wonder about the overlap between “people who complain about current game’s flaws” and “people who don’t like change”

[cosmic quail]

Smaller than you think.

[sinful sequoia]

i do realise that alot of people in the og tos2 server get alot of flack for posting decent reworks mostly because like "X or Y role is fine as it is"

and X role is vigi and Y role is like psychic

or seer

[raw tangle]

Real

[limpid bane]

do people still do that

i don’t get how anyone thinks vigi is fair but hey

[sinful sequoia]

idk i usually just check up on the tos2 server once in a blue moon

[cosmic quail]

Because it can also fuck you over

[sinful sequoia]

but but but it has hangman

[cosmic quail]

Which is seen as a “skill issue”

If Vigilante tears the coven apart it was a skill issue

If Vigilante kills 2 townies it was a skill issue

Vigilante is balanced, you just suck

That’s the argument

[sinful sequoia]

we love blitz meta

we love little to no social deduction in our sdg

[raw tangle]

They never stop to consider why it’s problematic one singular player can easily decide the fate of the game

[limpid bane]

ive seen that a few times

[cosmic quail]

Saana

[limpid bane]

i love vanilla ranked town being able to lose 5 votes in one day

[cosmic quail]

Oh wait you’re not in vanilla

[limpid bane]

yes thats the person

they are in ranked

[raw tangle]

I say this as a botc heretic fan but
It decides the fate of the game in a different way okay

[sinful sequoia]

theres always the rare chance the og tos2 server can come to agreement that something is bad

[limpid bane]

“independent games require everyone to play well and if they dont you lose”

[sinful sequoia]

but usually its like vanilla admirer

which is like

[limpid bane]

shit like counterstrike 2 was one of their examples

[sinful sequoia]

pick the bar up off the floor

[limpid bane]

no im not joking

[cosmic quail]

Sanaa’s response is “it’s a team game so you shouldn’t be upset if one of your teammates fucks you over”

[sinful sequoia]

comparing cs2 to tos2 lmfao

[cosmic quail]

And I got memed at for comparing ToS2 to Pokemon as well lol

[limpid bane]

this

[raw tangle]

A take of all time, to be sure

[sinful sequoia]

😭

[cosmic quail]

(The comparison I made was that Mayor is like Reshiram: way too good for normal play but dogwater in the tiers where you play with legendaries)

[polar cloud]

aight what the fuck am I coming back to

[sinful sequoia]

we should let all town members kill a player each night cause theres the chance town can fuck up

[polar cloud]

please do not throw balls at the mayor they cant be captured

[sinful sequoia]

and thats not on that certain player!

[limpid bane]

throw money instead, bribery is a good tactic

[cosmic quail]

The Jailor disagrees.

[limpid bane]

https://tenor.com/view/jailer-jail-town-of-salem-town-of-salem-2-tos-gif-2970383237310911599

[raw tangle]

The jailor is the pokemon player who swears on God mega rayquaza is balanced actually

[cosmic quail]

Nah I think Jailor is more like

Dude writes the Ubers viability rankings. Ubers is their home and they’re never leaving.

Mega Ray got banned and they were back on top of the leaderboards in an hour.

[cosmic quail]

The funniest thing about this is that even when the VToS2 community comes to the consensus that Admirer is bad we still have no idea WTF to do about it

So it’s a consensus with an asterisk

[icy berry]

VorseToS2?

[raw tangle]

Vanilla

Probably doesn't help that Admirer doesn't really have a workable concept on high

Mostly because it got slapped into the game without a second thought on why the yoinked role worked

[cosmic quail]

Yeah any role that “needs an overhaul” will immediately have over 9000 conflicting ideas

Because that basically just means “make a new TS and put it in this slot”

[sinful sequoia]

i dont actually think ive played as or against btos2 admirer so i cant really critique it in any way

[polar cloud]

guys what if admirer swapped visits between two players

[limpid bane]

btos2 admi is weak

[sinful sequoia]

alot of the arguments i see is that it steps on crusader and its just not fun to play against

[limpid bane]

the only use ive ever seen it had

is blocking my subpoena

[cosmic quail]

Aka Crusader steps on it because BToS2 Admi came first

[timber phoenix]

Haha, that's what you get Judg- gets courted

[cosmic quail]

But alas

[sinful sequoia]

unfortunately im not even sure you could put crus in ts

[cosmic quail]

Can’t move roles out of their subalignments

So no

[polar cloud]

DW :

[sinful sequoia]

crus is kind of a necessary evil cause if not starspawn would continue to be loud

[sinful sequoia]

also pirate

[cosmic quail]

Vanilla moment

[sinful sequoia]

vanilla moment

[cosmic quail]

Pirate is the most sad one

Because it’s basically doing the same thing that was done in Ranked

[polar cloud]

pirate shoudl give whoever rolls it scurvy IRL

[sinful sequoia]

ns should have an identity thats mostly focused in fucking with roles and alignments

not just having like

[cosmic quail]

My piles of oranges:

[sinful sequoia]

pirate slapped in it

[raw tangle]

Bad

🗞️

[sinful sequoia]

i say we kill pirate with hammers and wrenches

[polar cloud]

hisses

[timber phoenix]

Yippee bucket to throw literally everything unbalanced in!!!

[cosmic quail]

I want to, but vanilla.

[cosmic quail]

This would work if TAA wasn’t a thing

[timber phoenix]

true

[cosmic quail]

Because it would mean you don’t have to play with a terrible role unless you really want to

[polar cloud]

Honestly

just make a Pirate bucket

[cosmic quail]

Lul

[polar cloud]

that can only spawn pirate

[grave gust]

Make Pirate town.

Fr

[cosmic quail]

Real.

[polar cloud]

I love QTE jailor

[timber phoenix]

Pirate (Town Killing)

[limpid bane]

make pirate an nk idk

[grave gust]

Make pirate the 5th TK role

[cosmic quail]

But the point is

Throwing it in NS and banning it from ranked

[polar cloud]

Say what you want but if jailor didnt exist Pirate would have kinda worked minus the RNG aspect as a TPOW

[limpid bane]

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1298364151013572648 plug

[cosmic quail]

Basically removed any incentive to actually do anything about it

Without, yanno, actually fixing it

[polar cloud]

I see your plug and I raise mine

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1282698025516404841

[cosmic quail]

Which again, if we could just delete it that would be fine, but Curtis won’t allow that in vanilla

[grave gust]

I saw a rework somewhere that made Pirate more of a NE than whatever Pirate currently is.

[cosmic quail]

And any role that needs an overhaul is already an uphill battle to fix

[grave gust]

Don't remember where though

I liked it very much.

[polar cloud]

Honestly

I wouldnt mind a big ass balance patch where every role is nerfed

[grave gust]

Remove the CK bucket

[cosmic quail]

Unfortunately that’s a pipe dream

[polar cloud]

and pirate just get shot in a dark allay and die idk

[sinful sequoia]

thats a fantasy cause thatd take like

[limpid bane]

ck isnt unredeemable though

[sinful sequoia]

a year to do

and nobody waiting that long

[polar cloud]

Conj is somehow balanced

[sinful sequoia]

being generous

[polar cloud]

like

on paper its broken

in practice its balanced

RIT ON THE OTHER HAND

[cosmic quail]

In practice it’s necessary to deal with a bunch of other broken shit

[grave gust]

Conj is dumb and should be nerfed, coven shouldn't get free kills

[polar cloud]

IF I COULD BAN ANY OF THE COVEN MEMBER IT WOULD BE THE RIT BECAUSE I FUCKING AHTE THEM

[cosmic quail]

Conjurer isn’t balanced, it’s “I used the stupid OP bullshit to destroy the stupid OP bullshit”

[sinful sequoia]

all you can hope for is that the new tos2 dev team do balance changes other times BESIDES off season

[grave gust]

Finally a good conj take

[polar cloud]

Id argue that its the most balanced CK

[cosmic quail]

Not a high bar to clear.

[polar cloud]

which isnt saying much considering rit is broken and jinx fucking kills itself

[limpid bane]

jinx is tinker with extra steps

real

[grave gust]

Conj is the ultimate fuck you to TIs and Neutrals and punishes Tpow for doing their job, fucking stupid

[sinful sequoia]

daykills in general bad

[polar cloud]

No because at least tinker can die in a fun way

[grave gust]

Which btw, town should control daytime, that is like the principle of TOS

[polar cloud]

Jinx either get a kill and confirm no rit
Get no kills at all
Or fucking get outed N1

[cosmic quail]

It’s AA so actually it doesn’t confirm no rit, and also all 3 CK can spawn at the same time so you die to conj/rit the next day and also fuck you

[grave gust]

Well in a ranked list, it confirms no rit/conj

[limpid bane]

i love coven blitz compositions

totally fair and balanced

[cosmic quail]

CL:

[grave gust]

Well if you have a CL, you wouldn't have a jinx in the first place

[polar cloud]

ngl I feel like rit being a perma audit with no drawback for failing could work

[grave gust]

Ewww

At least give the charges back after rit gets lynched

[polar cloud]

yeah that is what an audit is

[cosmic quail]

Yes you would?

[sinful sequoia]

so what

[grave gust]

You said perma audit

[polar cloud]

it cancels upon the applier dying

perma audit as in each night

[sinful sequoia]

it has insanely less coverage

[polar cloud]

if you are guessed you are basically insomniac

[sinful sequoia]

cause not all roles have charges

[polar cloud]

and rework DW into something else

[grave gust]

Audit doesn't RB

[polar cloud]

what

[sinful sequoia]

oh no 😭

[polar cloud]

what the fuck

[cosmic quail]

😭

[polar cloud]

Audit is litterally a RB

[grave gust]

It literally doebs8

Audit itself doesn't RB

[sinful sequoia]

auditor rbs and audits

if auditor goes on a role that doesnt have charges it rbs

[sinful sequoia]

and if it does it rbs and audits

[grave gust]

Have you not read the in-game message

[sinful sequoia]

that uh

doesnt mean anything? it still rbs

[polar cloud]

audit is by definition a RB

[limpid bane]

it does both

so like

[grave gust]

It says you have been RB. Then it says you have been audited

[polar cloud]

yes because its a fucking IF

[sinful sequoia]

yeah so it rbs

[polar cloud]

IF your target has any charges

[limpid bane]

yes

[grave gust]

Also how would a perma work with hungover

[limpid bane]

??

what?

[polar cloud]

Insomniac

[grave gust]

Since you can't be RBd twice in a row

Oh

[polar cloud]

Basically you would turn insomniac if you got guessed

[grave gust]

That's a different mechanic

[sinful sequoia]

if you audit someone whose hungover you dont rb them i think you just audit them lol

[grave gust]

Just say RB and the. Insomniac

[limpid bane]

well its still an rb but it doesnt work

[sinful sequoia]

but anyways audit rit would be very bad

[grave gust]

Way healthier than now lmao

[sinful sequoia]

pick the bar up off the floor

[limpid bane]

isolator ritualist

idk

[grave gust]

Yeah that's way better

[limpid bane]

i know mystic clown reacted fuckers apoc isolate rit

but yeah

[grave gust]

It goes away after rit gets lynched though

[limpid bane]

lasts for a night

then dissipates

[grave gust]

I would support conj being a fall back kill role tbh

[sinful sequoia]

im not sure how to feel abt isolator rit but uh i just really either want ck as a whole gone or overhauled

latter preferable

[grave gust]

If conj was mafioso, I would support it 100%

[limpid bane]

ck should become supporting the necronomicon kill

[sinful sequoia]

would work if ck was more focused on assisting and enhancing kills instead of adding kpn

rn its rit: neutral and tpow bullier who swings one direction or the other dependant solely on rolelist

jinx: jinx

conj: daykill

[grave gust]

Yeah just make conj mafioso

[cosmic quail]

Whack

[grave gust]

Like why is this not the case

[cosmic quail]

Because “Mafioso” is awful

[grave gust]

Mafioso is a backup kill

[cosmic quail]

It’s basically a Coven with no ability

Complete garbage

[grave gust]

Make conj a back up kill

[cosmic quail]

How does that work

[grave gust]

Aka mafioso

[sinful sequoia]

that was the fucker rework right

[grave gust]

If book holder picks a target and fails to kill, you get a meteor

[polar cloud]

Why would you make conj that when jinx is litterally already themed around misfortune

[grave gust]

Because jinx should do something else rather than being ambusher

[grave gust]

Although a small footnote, make TPs last till the next day so conj can't hit Tpow, fail to kill and then nuke the Tpow because of the ability.

And BG counter attacking the meteor would be hilarious

[limpid bane]

not day cleric

this is a bad idea

[grave gust]

Why?

[icy berry]

perma cleric when

boosts their target's defence to Powerful for the rest of the game

[grave gust]

It a universal TP change lmao

[sinful sequoia]

hardcounters bad

[grave gust]

It's not even a hard counter, cuz it's not 1 role, it's all TP

[sinful sequoia]

also daykills dont really need to exist to begin with

when they made it they probably just thought it was a cool “what if”

[lucid cairn]

Being a back up kill is fine conceptually but Mafioso covered two options and that's it

[grave gust]

Well maybe I was harsh with the comparison, but a back up kill is what I meant

[lucid cairn]

I had this idea

[cosmic quail]

A lot of things in ToS2 could be described this way

[limpid bane]

true

[fallen crag]

Mafioso existed to counter Roleblocks pretty much

[cosmic quail]

And wasn’t even that good at it

Because if GF died or never spawned you could still get chainblocked forever

[fallen crag]

Coven did sort of have a similar system with how all coven members could kill, buuuut not really because it also told you exactly what role killed

Yeaaaaa

I think the point was, immunity to roleblocks until the GF dies

Making Tav an endgame thign

[cosmic quail]

But that just meant Tav was fucked

It had better coverage than it does now in ToS2

But it still spent most of the game doing fuck all of importance in Ranked

[fallen crag]

Yuhh

[orchid kernel]

The evil curtbot9000 strikes again

graaaa

Removing roles is a complete nightmare for numerous reasons. If something is in a bad enough state it can be overhauled.

[sinful sequoia]

that would make sense

needing to remove all the interactions with it

[timber phoenix]

Clearly we must:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1282309301851127932/1306038632335016016/9a5fy8.gif

[orchid kernel]

In modded removing roles isn't a super big deal

In the case of socialite it was never removed, we just didn't add it because:

• It was original socialite
• When the overhaul arrived it was too similar to our own crusader

In vanilla there are so many issues with removing a role, but every time its brought up for some reason it gets painted as "Curtis just doesn't want to do it" when there are so many logistical problems with doing that

Even if I wanted to (To be clear, I do not) it would not happen

the original suggestion for deleting roles wasn't even a big sweep anyway, still a massive % of people who didn't want it and thats JUST the discord side of the community, the amount of casuals who like roles (for seemingly illogical reasons lol) massively outweigh the opinions of a discord server

Any problematic roles can be overhauled, if you want to look at an overhaul as a role being replaced, look at it that way.

[fallen crag]

I'm genuinely curious now; is there any examples of live service games that have full on deleted anything like characters, classes, roles etc? (Not in the form of a sequel or like re-release of the game tho - just during the regular updates?)

[raw tangle]

Let’s find out pulls up google

[orchid kernel]

None that I can think of, because there are too many logistical issues with doing this

[cosmic quail]

I see Jester as the prime counter example

But beyond that

“Every role can be overhauled,” even if you agree with that premise, which I do not,

There is a major difference between overhaul and deletion.

The most important difference being, in the latter, you don’t have to worry about what to replace it with.

And that has been the #1 biggest obstacle for fixing the truly terrible roles in this game

Sure, we can recognize that Admirer is bad, or Investigator is bad, or Pirate is bad

But it’s stuck there until someone makes a replacement.

Not having to worry about that would be fucking amazing.

I don’t want to leave garbage roles stuck in their awful state until someone cooks a whole new role to replace it with. That’s why I advocate for deleting roles outright.

If you disagree, I hope you have a concrete plan for, at the minimum, every single role I put on that list to have a complete overhaul. But I already know that’s a pipe dream.

[cosmic quail]

Throne of Lies.

Throne of Lies deleted multiple classes from the game.

[raw tangle]

I’m glad my dumbass forgot about the game i got addicted to for 600 hours

😔

[fallen crag]

Ah I see

I mean I’m not really qualified here to talk about that game tbf so

But that is an example

[lucid cairn]

I thought my overhaul for Pirate was good

But yeah some roles are just stuck until people figure out what works

[raw tangle]

Uhhh, I remember
Priest/Soulcatcher being deleted because reviver was just broken
Acolyte got deleted because it didnt really need to exist
Pretender got deleted for causing unhealthy metas

(Justice for Acolyte where’s our Cult Killer 😔)

[cosmic quail]

Yeah

And ToL is similar in structure to this game, so there is precedent

Only major difference is no scrolls

But the point of the “they just don’t want to” is

The reason is less important than the fact that it was hard refused multiple times

They’ve made their decision, and that’s the end of it.

I’m still allowed to be angry about it though.

[raw tangle]

I am oddly curious why its logistically difficult to delete in vanilla but not modded
Scrolls are probably a part of it actually

[cosmic quail]

I don’t care.

I really don’t.

It would make the game healthier, and that’s my biggest concern.

Stone walling an option that, over the past year and a half, has felt more and more necessary, is incredibly frustrating to me.

And I have a feeling Season 4 isn’t exactly gonna make my dreams come true with those roles I put in the initial post.

So they’re gonna be stuck that way even longer

[grave gust]

I mean, most roles are salvageable, idk about pros though

[fallen crag]

Same reason the majority of live service games do not delete content

You have to consider a wider audience and, it's also kind of suicidal to go about removing content from your own game - even if something is problematic it's so much better to rework it rather than just bludgeon it out of the game

[raw tangle]

nods

Notably in the throne example only pretender got deleted outside of beta (and after toooooonnnnnnnsssssss of complaints) so

Which was fair, i was there for it
Role was cool somewhat in concept but they bungled the execution so hard

[orchid kernel]

Modded roles have zero forms of MTX tied to them, the playerbase for modded are very different to the playerbase of the vanilla game

Things removed from modded can still be played in vanilla, we aren't perm pulling an option from someone

MTX related issues are the main things tho, replying "I don't care" and omitting any actual reasons besides "they just don't want to" is very misleading for people. Our explanations being taken out of context like that often encourages us to just keep our reasonings to ourselves 😅

[orchid kernel]

Achievements are another big issue*

We can replace achievements without much worry but deleting them entirely from people is just lame

[raw tangle]

Yeah okay that tracks

[cosmic quail]

When we tried to propose methods that would work around the scrolls issues, you made it clear that the “No” was the primary point you wanted to get across, and the reasons why were secondary. And I’ve acted accordingly.

You called it, “just another way to delete roles” as if that wasn’t the point

So no, I don’t think the reasons matter all that much

If they did, they would be issues to work around and not a cudgel to shut down the idea of removing certain roles from standard play entirely.

I’m obviously still bitter about the whole thing now, but I’ll make peace with it eventually.

Just.

Have a plan for those roles.

I know you probably don’t, but you’ve drawn your line in the sand.

You’re the one responsible for proving that every role is eventually fixable.

I’ll believe it when I see it.

[orchid kernel]

If I'm not mistaken, the method suggested was to automatically ban a role in every gamemode, and to refund all scrolls for them. That is the same thing as removing them

[cosmic quail]

Or to treat it like a Special role (where it can only be played in specific game modes) which actually has weight in vanilla

I saw that Pirate react

Pirate being a special role here means nothing

[limpid bane]

i saw special and thought NS

mb

[cosmic quail]

TAA is this mod’s AA mode and you can still be thrust into a role list with Pirate in it against your will

Same with the other special roles, by the way

So yea, special roles have no weight in BToS2. In vanilla they do.

[limpid bane]

they have a little

[cosmic quail]

It would be a method of removing roles from standard play without having to worry about logistical issues since the roles still exist in the code.

[limpid bane]

considering they’re excluded from random neutral / common neutral buckets so you don’t see them in balanced lists (for vanilla this literally means nothing)

[cosmic quail]

You do not have to play with Vampires or Cursed Soul in vanilla unless you explicitly choose the game mode that has those roles in it, which is the point.

You’re not gonna be thrust into standard play with Vampires/CS

But again

None of this matters

The first time, I asked very specifically, how we could get roles removed from standard play in a way that Curtis would agree to

And he very specifically said “you just have to wait for a rework”

If the reasons ever mattered, they stopped mattering right then and there.

There is no ground that can be made.

No victory I can claim, no matter how half-baked and compromisey

TI is gonna be bloated forever, Admirer is gonna take 2 years to be fixed in Vanilla, Jester’s going to keep ruining games while everyone tries to tell me it’s great, Pirate is probably going to be the way it is for the game’s whole lifespan at this point, and all I can do is scream into the void.

Because no one will listen to me anyway.

Even when it becomes clearer and clearer that I was right from the beginning.

[icy berry]

damn wtf happened here

[pallid crystal]

curtis

[unreal rivet]

League Of Legends

[vagrant quarry]

doesnt overwatch have the deleted defense class or something?

[sinful sequoia]

i dont think ow deletes but that game has its own issues

[fallen crag]

I’d 100% put that as a rework/overhaul thing- but ya

[next forum]

oh my god i can finally use this

i made this months ago lmaooo

[limpid bane]

🔥

[orchid kernel]

I said it was another issue ontop of the existing ones, not the entire problem 🗿

[glossy lark]

the universe will explode if we dont delete roles gg

[next forum]

i'm well aware but i've had this image since june and there has literally never been a better opportunity to use it

[orchid kernel]

Lol I suppose

weird timing making it in June, right after the update that replaced like 30 achievements lul

Replacing existing achievements is fine, every achievement has a default value already so we just swap it over, allowing people who had the old achievement to have the new one. There is no swapping achievements over to an entire new role, things like the win achievements just aren't going to transfer

[dark vector]

If I could time travel I'd stop psychic from coming into existence some how

[limpid bane]

seer should have been psy rework

[dark vector]

True

I do think seer needs to be slown down but psychic is really unhealthy

most people don't like RNG roles, but a RNG ti role is just unfair to play against, a lot of the time theirs no way you could have acted to avoid a vision

[limpid bane]

the only way are deception roles but its like

[glossy lark]

just have an illu in your team so ez

[limpid bane]

evils will still appear in visions if you illusion the guy who got visited by psy

[dark vector]

I personally dont want anything RNG, but a RNG Ti is awful design

[limpid bane]

mf when two coven instead of one is in vision now (they visited the illusioned guy)

[dark vector]

I honestly hate how illusionist and necronomicon can prevent sheriff from seeing half the coven, I have issues with Illu design too tbf lol

[pallid crystal]

THATS WORSE BECAUSE 2 SHOW UP IN IT NOW 💀

[dark vector]

it's why you don't design a rng Ti

[limpid bane]

necro holder shouldnt have it

illusionist needs it

[dark vector]

even if seer is op, getting lynched cuz of a psychic vision always stinks

[dark vector]

100% agree with that

[pallid crystal]

Illusionist is weak asf

[limpid bane]

illusionist should distrust innocent checks on players

while ench distrusts guilty checks

[pallid crystal]

Other than MH

[limpid bane]

MH is bad

[polar cloud]

League of Legends kinda did IIRC

[dark vector]

but then i dont like how 2 tps get ignored while the others don't

[limpid bane]

thats just bad

[pallid crystal]

Yeah, I was going to say "But illusionist shouldn't even have MH"

[limpid bane]

give illusionist stronger deception and remove MH

[pallid crystal]

Yeah

[dark vector]

I rather consistency behind protection on Illu

[limpid bane]

countering bg and trapper is dumb

[dark vector]

either it shouldn't really interact with tp or it should

[pallid crystal]

You're right, it should counter all tp (real)

[dark vector]

I dont like roles that counter like a few roles but no others

[dark vector]

If it was limited that's fine but rit does a better job of that

something that counters all tps has to be very limited such as rituals

[polar cloud]

and even then rit is OP

[sinful sequoia]

you can argue tooth and nail for psychic

it is just 66% rng

[dark vector]

coven killing is a bad category

coven KPN should be stable

[polar cloud]

I honestly think most roles can be fixed by reworking them

As much as I hate pirate, it could easily work with a few tweaks

[pallid crystal]

Not the category itself but moreso the roles in them

[sinful sequoia]

it can throw random evils into a 1f1 or a losing situation without any fault of their own BY rng

[pallid crystal]

Jinx is so ass
Conjurer is just No TPOW sim
Ritualist is busted

[dark vector]

nah fundementally you cannot have a Coven killing category because indepedent kills on coven is always toxic for the game

[sinful sequoia]

you need to hope for either an enchanter or illusionist just to get by

[limpid bane]

Illusionist - Coven Deception

Attack: None Defense: None
Abilities
Cast an illusion over players, making them appear good
Send a mirage of where they appear to visit
Choose to visit your target or not
Attack with the Necronomicon

Illusion (Infinite | Night)

Visit a player and remove any evidence of wrong-doing from them
They will appear to be town to all TI and not the Killer
You may target anyone with this ability

Mirage (Infinite | Night)

Select a second player ontop of the first, you may only use this if a member of the Coven was selected for the first target
They will appear to have visited only the second target to trackers and lookouts

Astral Projection (Toggle)

While disabled, your targeting is a Physical visit
While enabled, it is an Astral Visit

this was quickly rethemed so ignore the theming mistakes

[pallid crystal]

Fym ignore it, you posted a text wall

[sinful sequoia]

i think the theming is fine

[limpid bane]

the poor theming

it was initially called lawyer and I rushed to retheme it back to coven

[pallid crystal]

??

What

[glossy lark]

the theme has run out of money

[limpid bane]

yep

low budget

[sinful sequoia]

[dark vector]

Rit should be reworked to allow book holder to bypass protections through guessing, but also be less punished (aka outed to all town) for failing

[pallid crystal]

Shouldn't it be more punishing in general though

[dark vector]

shouldn't allow evils to go through nautral defence still such as NK's

[dark vector]

Why would it be more punishing if you nerfed its KPN to 0

[sinful sequoia]

only problem is just that it would need something else

[dark vector]

current punishment is only acceptable because the role is so strong

[pallid crystal]

I just mean in general not your rework

[sinful sequoia]

like this on its own as a budget starspawn i dont feel like would work

[limpid bane]

take: what if ritualist couldnt guess people exposed by witches and potion masters

[sinful sequoia]

eh

[limpid bane]

will it finally kill pm/rit

actually yeah

[dark vector]

that adds anti interaction

[sinful sequoia]

witch reveal is just bad anyways

and imo pm should be a little toned down

[limpid bane]

me when the roleguessers can see the exact roles of people

[dark vector]

its still true

[pallid crystal]

No

Go away

[limpid bane]

nuh

[pallid crystal]

Get out!!!

[limpid bane]

[dark vector]

you add a situation where PM and rit become roles that hurt each other by existing on the same team

[pallid crystal]

Simply make it so rit is always rec if pm spawns fr fr

[limpid bane]

how else do you nerf pm/rit

[dark vector]

mutually exclusive would make it more healthy then your suggestion lol

[pallid crystal]

My nerfing the KPN

[dark vector]

Rit shouldn't be a extra kill

Extra KPN roles on coven are just a bad design

[pallid crystal]

The only problem with yours is revealing the TPOW n1 and you just kill them n2

[limpid bane]

“i was witched!”
“lol fc no ritualist”

[pallid crystal]

Yeah

Mutual exclusive is dumb

[glossy lark]

me faking witched as coven to make people vfr

[dark vector]

yeah well its dumber having anti synergy, neither is a good suggestion

[polar cloud]

me faking vfr as witched to make people coven

[limpid bane]

me faking ritualist to get people to vfr

[dark vector]

also witch shouldn't reveal roles

[limpid bane]

witch pariah when

[dark vector]

that would be cooking

[glossy lark]

play tos1 vanilla ez

[limpid bane]

we would need another cpow then but like

[dark vector]

conjurer fits into coven power

rework rit to not kill and rework jinx into literally anything else

[pallid crystal]

Disagree on that

[limpid bane]

not really

[dark vector]

yeah really

[pallid crystal]

The one shot meteor is NOT that good 💀

[limpid bane]

coven killing is the subalignment for conj

[dark vector]

it is 💀