#The Daily Rework Discussion Thread

1 messages ¡ Page 1 of 1 (latest)

fallen crag
gaunt cipher
#

goodness

#

you guys really love tracker

fallen crag
#

rtracer

#

kj

lucid cairn
limpid bane
lucid cairn
#

...yes

tacit cliff
#

One message removed from a suspended account.

gaunt cipher
grand ocean
#

Ima need to update links later

#

:/

winged dirge
#

hi harry

lucid cairn
grand ocean
#

but hi

dim moth
fallen crag
#

WAH IM SORRY

polar cloud
tacit cliff
#

One message removed from a suspended account.

pallid crystal
grave gust
#

Lmao, Sheriff is literally the most balanced TI

#

Leave him alone

polar cloud
#

Vanilla sheriff sucks ass

next forum
tacit cliff
#

One message removed from a suspended account.

sinful sequoia
#

not much to sheriff really besides external factors like detection immunity

#

its aight

lucid cairn
lucid cairn
fallen crag
lucid cairn
fallen crag
lucid cairn
fallen crag
#

Not a fan

#

Encourages stupid playstyles of checking the same people over and over

#

Temp made a version where the first bookholder has detection immunity for the rest of the game, but it never gets passed

lucid cairn
#

Having some reason to search someone again is a lot better than checking someone once and not having to worry about it again

ionic garden
#

I agree with that, notably, as they should already be doing that, specially after an enchanter or illusions is revealed to ensure that the results were not affected by them

lucid cairn
#

Mhm

#

I've seen reworks to TIs like Spy or Coroner where your ability lingers on them permanently and it makes them so boring and a cookie clicker

dry jungle
lucid cairn
#

Yes it's awful

lucid cairn
# lucid cairn Sheriff needs detection immunity to change

Sheriff - Town (Investigative)

Attack: None
Defense: None
Unique: No

Abilities:

  • Interrogate one person each night for suspicious activity.

Attributes:

  • Enchanted players appear suspicious.
  • Illusioned players appear innocent.
  • Infected players appear suspicious.
  • Possessed players appear suspicious.

(∞) Interrogate

  • All non-Town roles are suspicious by default.
  • Non-Town roles will seem innocent if they attack another player the first night you Interrogate them. Interrogating the player again will bypass this.
  • This includes: Coven (with the Necronomicon), Berserker, Famine, Pestilence, War, all Neutral Killings, Vampire.
  • This does not include: Coven (without the Necronomicon), all Neutral Evils.

Goal: Hang every criminal and evildoer.

cosmic quail
#

So for Arsonist

#

does that only work if they ignite someone?

lucid cairn
#

Mhm

#

It may seem a bit harsh but I think it's fine, it's just one TI anyway, and that's the one that's pretty easy to fake so

cosmic quail
#

yikes

#

still though, big ouch

limpid bane
winged dirge
#

Yeah the Jackal does not need to be suspicious.

#

Sheriff is fine, you could argue about detection immunity necronomicon thing but other than that it works.

lucid cairn
winged dirge
#

Well unless you specify otherwise, how would I know what you think unless I bring it up?

lucid cairn
#

Well I didn't even think of Jackal and whatnot so that's why I didn't bring it up wezontseeit

lucid cairn
#

I have detection immunity work the way that it does there because I designed it around the rest of the roles that I reworked and not base-game

grand ocean
#

someone yell at me sometime tmr to update links

#

btw

#

ty :P

lucid cairn
#

I mainly just had it there for Apocalypse and Arsonist from what I remember

gaunt cipher
#

I like current sheriff

#

sheriff should realistically check the same stuff deputy checks

#

defense
non-town

#

boom instantly a slightly better role

lucid cairn
#

What?

gaunt cipher
#

deputy checks if a players role has defense and if that role isn't town

#

if defense = none and non town = yes you shoot

#

otherwise nothing happens

#

sheriff working the same wouldn't be too bad

raw tangle
#

Isn’t that a huge buff in coven games

#

Like
Undesirably huge buff

dry jungle
#

sheriff is fine how it is

gaunt cipher
#

not really

#

its literally just current sheriff but you cant find bookie

dry jungle
#

boring, but fine its like cleric

gaunt cipher
#

bookholder immunity to sheriff only is dumb

raw tangle
#

I wouldn’t really call sheriff “fine” but I just don’t like cop
I would rather it stay at the power level it’s at

gaunt cipher
#

eh

lucid cairn
dry jungle
#

like I said, there are bigger issues maybe like a small buff

gaunt cipher
lucid cairn
#

Mechanically all it does is make all Coven but Coven Leader suspicious

#

So like why not just do that?

gaunt cipher
#

NEs

#

NS

#

NP

lucid cairn
#

I was talking about Coven

gaunt cipher
#

coven isnt the only faction

raw tangle
#

NP get shot by deputy so it does not change the interaction

lucid cairn
#

^

gaunt cipher
#

recruits i believe

lucid cairn
#

I'm pretty sure the only thing it affects is Coven besides Coven Leader

dry jungle
#

barely most roles have defense thats not neutral

raw tangle
#

Recruits are given a special exception for deputy for some reason

gaunt cipher
#

then again

lucid cairn
#

I'm not sure if it affects players that are given protections, hopefully not

raw tangle
gaunt cipher
#

idk sheriff is just boring as of right now

#

its the faction finder and thats it

raw tangle
#

Yeah but thats because it’s a cop

gaunt cipher
#

and i guess NE bully

dry jungle
#

Its a base-role just like cleric

lucid cairn
#

I would like it if Sheriff had some way to find Neutrals but not as freely as they can find Coven

gaunt cipher
#

7 different roles

#

cough cough invest seer psychic tracker LO

raw tangle
#

Ftr the roles that I think outclass sheriff are like

lucid cairn
#

Seer and Psychic are really the only ones

gaunt cipher
#

and if we're saying specifically evil finders its that list minus LO

gaunt cipher
lucid cairn
#

Some of the others are stronger than it but they're not really in the same class

raw tangle
#

Btos2 invest is near seer level of power so

dry jungle
#

That applies for most buckets though, something always outclasses something

dry jungle
gaunt cipher
#

and tracker is a more consistent way of catching someone in a lie than sheriff most of the time

gaunt cipher
#

TP is probably the most balanced bucket in the game

#

every tp has upsides and downsides

#

besides oracle but like

#

ew oracle

raw tangle
#

Balanced in terms of comparison anyway

gaunt cipher
raw tangle
#

Besides trapper being broken but

dry jungle
#

something that is tp is usually compared as "better" or "worse" cleric

raw tangle
#

Ignore that

gaunt cipher
#

theres actually always a situation where you'd want one tp compared to another

raw tangle
gaunt cipher
raw tangle
#

When doctor is typically highest level protective

gaunt cipher
#

doctor is a baseline because its a simple role

#

it does what it does efficiently with no downside really

#

every other tp has a downside/upside that make it different from cleric

raw tangle
gaunt cipher
#

in exchange for barely protecting in that case

#

the thing is

#

the moment we get more roles that can fake trapper

raw tangle
#

It also having a rebound kill is a cherry on top

gaunt cipher
#

the entire balance of confirming people is gone

#

so trapper will still be like solid A- tier

lucid cairn
gaunt cipher
#

it just wont be A+ as it is

#

trapper killing is fine i think

#

as slow as it is

#

it just needs to be more easy to fake

raw tangle
#

I still think there’s a breaking strategy to be had with trapper and it’s just untapped

gaunt cipher
#

and then all of its problems are gone

gaunt cipher
#

or literally just having all visiting roles visit the trap

raw tangle
#

I mean yes

#

Thats a breaking strategy

gaunt cipher
#

exactly

raw tangle
#

And the fact that exists is silly

gaunt cipher
#

its already been discovered more or less

#

like i said the moment theres some sort of counterplay or way to fake that confirmation chain

raw tangle
#

Thats why lookout needed nerf in tos1 (and did not get a good one)

gaunt cipher
#

trapper loses that value a lot

raw tangle
#

I
Honestly disagree?
Even if the trapper isn’t necessarily cleared they’re still generating tons of clears on other players

gaunt cipher
#

you can exclude people

#

or "include" others

#

the problem is that you as an evil cannot accurately say what roles visited who

raw tangle
#

Anyone you exclude will know you are evil if you’re this hypothetical scum role watcher

gaunt cipher
#

that are ur teammates

#

now nobody knows if you are hanged whose actually legit in that will

raw tangle
#

Then congrats
You’ve PoE’d yourself

gaunt cipher
#

the hell is a poe

raw tangle
#

Process of elimination

gaunt cipher
#

like edgar allen poe?

#

just like

#

dont get hanged lol

lucid cairn
gaunt cipher
#

ur goal isnt actually to survive with that trapper claim

#

most tp/ti claims are to cause confusion and mislynches

#

a trap doesnt go up until n2 so assuming you get a d1 mislynch which happens pretty often id say

#

youre set up to win

#

if you can basically just create a 1f1 and survive off that 1f1 you actually just win and roles like dusa help that a lot

lucid cairn
#

That's kind of hard to do

#

If you confirm other people then it makes it easier for them to confirm others as well

gaunt cipher
#

on d3 you should be trying to mislynch to win the game

lucid cairn
#

And they can end up confirming the people you're trying to put into a 1f1 with yourself

gaunt cipher
#

the only people who can do that reasonably are ti

#

and you can just always exclude ti from your will

raw tangle
#

Prefacing this by saying this hypothetical is based on a scenario with a scum role that can fake trap results. In current meta scum actively has less wiggle room and is basically reliant on the NP as a stopgap.

I honestly think that if this hypothetical meta were to surface, since coven can’t clear themselves on a real trap, what probably ends up happening is people count up how many clears the trapper spits out, and if it’s too many they’re just determined to be evil and killed.

If we presume the game has gone to 8v5 after a mislynch, and the trapper themselves is some player, we have 7 town players who are potentially visiting roles. It’s certainly not reasonable to assume all 7 are capable of triggering the trap, especially when a townie themselves probably gets trapped, yes. But of the currently existing roles, all TI can and all TP besides Oracle can (though Crusader will not for fairly obvious reasons; they’re likely cleared anyway because they’re Crusader lmao). These are our main targets. It would likely be prudent to include Admirer and a possible Ret corpse depending on early flips.

Thusly, we can then determine any TI/TP/Admirer not getting cleared by the trap are evil. Either they directly cc our trapper friend, creating a 1f1 that doesn’t create a game winning mislynch, or they don’t and just bowl over and die. If this causes a real Town Trapper to flip then those clears are all locked. If the scum in the 1f1 dies then either it’s a confirmed trapper (which is just game over for scum) or town scored a W on a fake trapper and can possibly discard the results.

Man i love analysing breaking strategies, wonder if I had the patience i could get this to catch on in vanilla.

#

Bible over uh
I don’t like trapper next question

upper fable
raw tangle
#

Don’t worry im just analyzing trapper

#

Very underrated role !!!

#

(Wasn’t this conversation about sheriff)

upper fable
#

LOL yeah

raw tangle
#

Sheriff is still a boring role thats it
I will note that in its current form it offers zero wiggle room to get out of a guilty check. Certainly notable i guess

lucid cairn
raw tangle
lucid cairn
raw tangle
#

…trapper lives rent free in my head

#

What can i say

lucid cairn
#

Well yes!

#

But given all of that, what do you want to see happen to Trapper?

limpid bane
raw tangle
#

that one is harder to say.
See normally I don't like rebound kills much, but I wouldn't mind if they were the central mechanic of trapper to makeup for the role being slower. This would likely entail a separate bodyguard change.

I think in order to make the role more fun I would make the trap less prone to breaking. Take away the role watcher, the trap only breaks if a non-town visits, the trapper learns when the trap breaks.

Lastly since the trap breaking change would lead to traps being impossible to remove as a solo killer without dying to the rebound, make the trap vanish onthe trapper's death.

limpid bane
#

trapper could be basic attack with a wound like mechanic where the victim is roleblocked the next night

#

idk

raw tangle
#

eh

lucid cairn
limpid bane
#

then what else

raw tangle
#

if its a basic attack it will still kill coven attackers minus CL and stop a kill

#

thats powerful enough

lucid cairn
#

Coven would be able to play around it by passing the Necronomicon, but Neutrals would be stuck not killing for two nights

limpid bane
#

it shouldnt be game ending for NK but still punishing enough

raw tangle
#

it would lock down specifically werewolf

lucid cairn
#

Missing out on two nights in a row would be really sad

lucid cairn
raw tangle
#

sk is immune to roleblocks, shroud can throw a body at it, arso doesnt direct attack

lucid cairn
#

I imagine the roleblock would bypass immunity

raw tangle
#

it would also cripple berserker

#

because apoc games needed to be slower

#

at most the reward id do is that if the trap doesn't kill the trapper will have a new trap ready the next night

lucid cairn
#

Oh, that's another thing

#

Despite how big the reward is for Trapper getting a protection, I don't like how it's punished by having to wait a night

grave gust
#

also that the trap can get triggered by random sheriffs

raw tangle
#

I'm... fine enough with it on current trapper but i see the complaint

grave gust
#

but giving exact roles is insanely strong lol

lucid cairn
limpid bane
#

trapper should lose town triggering traps

raw tangle
#

the consequences of the role being kinda designed to be swingy

lucid cairn
#

Yeah, I'm not exactly a fan of it

#

Well, not to the extent that it's at anyway

raw tangle
#

ye

lucid cairn
#

Trapper staying at Basic Attack can work, but the information...

#

If it was changed to just non-Town maybe, but would it still overlap on Spy?

raw tangle
#

Spy gets role based information a lot faster

lucid cairn
#

Do bugs still linger?

dry jungle
lucid cairn
#

Oh ew, hate that

dry jungle
#

well- atleast I dont think so

#

Yeah its just percept

lucid cairn
#

But they don't linger until they trigger?

raw tangle
dry jungle
#

wait what

raw tangle
#

they wait until the target dies or evil visits them

lucid cairn
#

I know they linger in the base game

dry jungle
#

ohhh i thought that was for vanilla

raw tangle
#

and throw you their ability feedback if they die or the percept feedback otherwise

lucid cairn
#

Ability feedback as in, uhm

raw tangle
#

you will get stuff like their TI info

lucid cairn
#

Oh, okay

#

That's good then

#

Hmm

gaunt cipher
#

anything that happened to their target for tps as well

#

i think spy is underrated

lucid cairn
grand ocean
#

ty

#

now someone link everything here so I don't have to Antics

#

and then I'll update links

#

which TIs did we cover so far

#

we did Sher Coro Seer

#

anything else?

#

Tracker

#

yeah we did Tracker

gaunt cipher
#

can we do LO now

dry jungle
#

did we do spy already

dry jungle
icy berry
#

so what's the main issue with Lookout then

tacit cliff
#

One message removed from a suspended account.

#

One message removed from a suspended account.

#

One message removed from a suspended account.

#

One message removed from a suspended account.

dry jungle
#

does lookout get decepted by deceptions

icy berry
#

no

#

you either see a visit or you don't

#

so like, Hex Master and Necro can kill without it seeing them

#

and rit technically

gaunt cipher
#

illusionist

#

i believe if their target was the cov kill they see no visits

sinful sequoia
#

tracker and LO arent affected by any deception besides mass hysteria i think

icy berry
polar cloud
#

but they are talking about MH

icy berry
#

well yes

polar cloud
#

wait they werent nvm

icy berry
#

MH makes LO see no visits

#

Illusion doesn't affect it

#

and well

#

Mass Hysteria is...

#

it's own thing

#

arguably either the best or worst ability ever

#

since it's all rng reliant on who tis check and what tis there are

#

and how many tis

polar cloud
#

Illu isnt a good role to begin with

#

Temp Illu fixes a lotta issue

gaunt cipher
#

temp has been gone for like

#

a year

polar cloud
#

I hope hes doing alright

next forum
dry jungle
#

when was the last time yall seen him

gaunt cipher
#

yeah 3 weeks

#

he said he's got irl things going on so I wish he gets through it all

next forum
#

yeah

dry jungle
#

same

lucid cairn
#

Also the fact that it's foolproof

#

Camouflage is also unnecessary

#

If those were changed it would be perfect

sinful sequoia
#

visit deception would be nice

gaunt cipher
lucid cairn
gaunt cipher
#

if anything only having it at 3 can sometimes make it stronger since you know there's no more than 3

lucid cairn
gaunt cipher
lucid cairn
gaunt cipher
#

if you get nothing because the 3 townies and the 1 coven member visited

#

you actually are basically incapable of discerning true visits vs fake visits

#

^ also considering that people are afraid of posting wills a lot because of rit

lucid cairn
gaunt cipher
lucid cairn
#

Well no

gaunt cipher
#

more guaranteed info

#

more actionable info

#

and more consistent

lucid cairn
#

I still wouldn't call Lookout one of the worst TIs 💀

gaunt cipher
#

itd be bottom 3

lucid cairn
gaunt cipher
#

yes

#

by far lol

fallen crag
#

Mmeh to be honest

#

I don't think players tend to stack up that much on people aside from meta strats like tp/lo

#

In typical gameplay, it's strange to have five players (including the LO) all visit the same target

gaunt cipher
#

that's the other thing

#

it really isn't changing much

fallen crag
#

I am a bit confused how it would be bottom 3 then?

#

LO is still hyper-specific info that cannot be fooled, even with that change

gaunt cipher
#

it gains zero benefit

ionic garden
#

Current concensus as far as I understand it (aka take it with a grain of salt) has both tracker and LO, due to being unfoolable AND capable of confirming at least 75% of town roles in one or two checks, in the top 5 at the least, 1st and 2nd at most

fallen crag
#

I think that's the point, it's a nerf?

gaunt cipher
#

but LO doesn't need a nerf

fallen crag
#

Mmh

gaunt cipher
#

the thing is with the fact LO can be faked by a

fallen crag
#

TP/LO meta is anti-fun

gaunt cipher
#

somewhat unreasonable amount of evil roles

fallen crag
#

And LO gets lots of info its kinda crazy

gaunt cipher
fallen crag
#

Which cannot be false

ionic garden
#

Wildling? No, Wildling faking LO is actually the most common way that a wildling is outed

gaunt cipher
#

if you make LO info falsifiable then sure

fallen crag
#

And it's a trap role that can get multiple sets of info per night - only countered by the fact sometimes it gets none

gaunt cipher
gaunt cipher
#

then the role falls off a cliff

fallen crag
#

Uerh

#

Idk about that one chief

gaunt cipher
#

I'm gonna be real

#

if tracker and LO could be fooled

#

they'd be like mid B tier

fallen crag
#

Even if they could be fooled

#

It'd be by like

#

Enchanter maybe illu

#

No other roles really fool TI

gaunt cipher
#

warlock soul collector

fallen crag
#

Fair but still

gaunt cipher
#

illu needs better fooling

#

enchanter needs better framing

fallen crag
#

It's far from botc poison

gaunt cipher
#

and honestly we need a 3rd framing role

gaunt cipher
fallen crag
#

Being affected by misinfo, still doesn't mean it will happen most of the time

gaunt cipher
#

there's no storyteller here unfortunately

#

but like nerfing LO doesn't actually fix tplo meta

#

if we do the nerf of only learning more than 3 people visited your target

fallen crag
gaunt cipher
#

you're actually just mass confirming people still

fallen crag
#

Maybe

#

But then anyone can claim to have been on said target

gaunt cipher
#

you can't prove it all sure but unless there's like 8 people claiming to visit them

gaunt cipher
#

no coven role actually wants to spend action economy basically doing nothing

fallen crag
#

Waste of time

gaunt cipher
#

for town no

#

for evils yes

#

LO is never a role that goes on more than like 3 people in a game ngl

fallen crag
gaunt cipher
#

LMAO

#

but yea I think tplo meta will always be prevalent unless you actually just kill LO and hide it's body in a ditch

#

in which case some other meta is gonna form to make up for that

fallen crag
#

Tbf modded has NP as well

gaunt cipher
#

yea most np counter tplo

#

only one that doesn't is that one j role thing

fallen crag
#

u got a grude against judge

gaunt cipher
#

my grudge against judge is a nudge at how boring it is

fallen crag
#

what da fudge

gaunt cipher
#

crud?

fallen crag
gaunt cipher
#

avalugg

fallen crag
raw tangle
#

The nerf I’ve done to like
Basically any watcher I run in a rolemadness is that they learn there were too many visitors if there are more than 2 visitors

#

I will point out that even without metas the role is really fucking good
The margin of error tracker has does not exist on lookout, and lookout can of course see multiple players at once. Lookout guilties are near impossible to get out of, much like sheriff guilties.

#

Which yes this proposed nerf does not fix, but you’d probably need to make it fooled by deception to give any wiggle room at all

lucid cairn
#

But it wouldn't affect normal gameplay

lucid cairn
#

Here's what I have:

image.png
grand ocean
#

Still can't see other LOs, yes?

lucid cairn
#

It's not a necessary mechanic since Lookouts confirm each other through results anyway

#

Not seeing other Lookouts just hurts other players who want to fakeclaim Lookout

ionic garden
#

Isn't that the only reason that mechanic is there in the first place?

cosmic quail
#

Not really

lucid cairn
#

But that heavily flopped

ionic garden
#

If that was the purpose that should have been noted and changed since TOS1, since it very clearly does the opposite

lucid cairn
#

That's one of the two reasons why it has Astral in the base game

fallen crag
#

The second being "🤨 um dawg if its liek using a spyglass um how does it visit we should remove that"

lucid cairn
#

Right 💀

#

Hate lore balancing

fallen crag
limpid bane
#

💀

sinful sequoia
#

i just imagined lookout as some guy stalking in the bushes

limpid bane
#

same

sinful sequoia
#

not some guy flying on an eagle looking beneath him

fallen crag
limpid bane
#

real

cosmic quail
lucid cairn
lucid cairn
cosmic quail
#

It's me, I'm people :D

#

un-fuck rampage first, please

#

or it's gonna be miserable to play LO

lucid cairn
#

I think it's a necessary step to take if we want less visit-based attacks

#

The main culprit is Serial Killer, but Berserker and War don't make it any better

limpid bane
#

berserker having all these gimmicks are dumb

#

especially if it transforms into war and is supposed to be factional

lucid cairn
#

Even if it wasn't factional it's still dumb, but yeah

limpid bane
#

berserker’s only utility should be war imo

cosmic quail
#

*screams in vanilla*

limpid bane
#

what

#

bers being nk+ then war is dumb

#

even if they’re in the limbo of factional or neutral

ionic garden
#

There truly is a lot of chaos on Apoc

#

But apoc was already done here so I'll just link my favorite rework solution and move on

lucid cairn
#

Oh a megathread

dry jungle
#

Which TI is next?

#

we didnt do invest did we?

icy berry
#

what would be changed about invest even

polar cloud
#

sc2 invest trust

dry jungle
#

idk I like invest

next forum
#

remove murder and add fingerprints

gaunt cipher
dry jungle
#

delete tracker ez solution

fallen crag
#

Invest is pretty perfect

#

Issue with fingerprints is they make Invest very tough to fake

#

I honestly don't think it needs another ability even

#

If you removed blood it'd still be really good

#

I think it just feels better to play if there's the possibility of another crime

dry jungle
#

why did they rename blood to murder btw arent they the same thing (Not literally)

shadow patrol
#

are fingerprints numbers

shadow patrol
fallen crag
shadow patrol
#

give it a whole new name

dry jungle
#

would be goated feedback

fallen crag
#

"Blood" isn't a crime tho that's why 😆

dry jungle
#

eh okay makes sense vanilla focuses on blood and btos2 focuses on crimes

fallen crag
#

mhm!

tacit cliff
#

One message removed from a suspended account.

dry jungle
#

did we do spy or no (yes im saying because I wanna sponser my own post)

polar cloud
#

also I am pretty sure EVERYONE got blood in them

tacit cliff
#

One message removed from a suspended account.

dry jungle
#

ah alr

#

uh so what now

#

tp?

tacit cliff
#

One message removed from a suspended account.

raw tangle
#

Investigator pretty cracked honestly

#

Almost seer tier

dry jungle
#

I rememebr there was a hurd of bg reworks being posted after Fresh made one

#

It was a massacre of bg reworks similar to the admirer ones

dry jungle
#

and nerfed down

raw tangle
#

...so to that end I think its overpowered.
But aside from Murder not really needing to exist I'm not sure how id change this specific concept

dry jungle
#

Some people were saying take it off and put blood/murder on coroner as a fix to their current ability

raw tangle
#

Honestly all that really does is give it 1 extra night of fairly paltry info

#

Murder is at its strongest when 1 coven is left

dry jungle
#

oh no they meant full on vanilla invest while btos2 invest is just a nerfed seer that bases off visits

raw tangle
#

Like ig it occasionally pulls the random ass n1 redcheck but
No

#

Thats not fixing coroner that's just letting it click a button n1

dry jungle
#

still would prefer it over crying n1 then possibly not even getting a death to autopsy d2

limpid bane
raw tangle
#

Coroner has some more issues like Autopsy having some of the dumbest interactions in the game or being immune to Deception because of Autopsy

#

(Can you tell i don't like Autopsy)

limpid bane
dry jungle
#

Autopsy is too swingy of a ability to be effective

#

most games

raw tangle
#

I think its such a boring ability

dry jungle
#

you and half the community

raw tangle
#

Okay but like

#

I think its boring because the info is dumb
The community thinks it's boring because coroner is shit at getting guilties

dry jungle
#

oh no me too I leave anytime I get it (not anymore cause I get banned for leaving)

raw tangle
#

But since coroner has 0 wiggle room on a guilty it being bad at it is a "counterbalance"

fallen crag
raw tangle
#

I'm pretty sure it got immunity to Deception as an active buff and like
Weh

#

Yes

#

I maintain this

fallen crag
#

I mean u have said this before

#

Eeeehhhh

#

Even if it's strong, I think it's by far the healthiest TI design personally

#

Not very specific & it's very malleable for the evil team, they can easily build fake worlds around the info

dry jungle
#

because its not overly powercrept

fallen crag
#

Still strong though which I like

raw tangle
#

See the huge no good issue i actually have with it
The falloff on the ability means it's strongest early where it's not really fun to be caught

#

On n3? You have plenty of excuses to be trespassing

#

On n1? You got seer checked deal with it

winged dirge
#

(hi nuggy)

dry jungle
#

The only reason coroner, investigator (with only blood/murder) and sheriff work is because they're counterable and could be fake but if your seer most times you dont get countered and your information is 90% always correct

raw tangle
#

(On n3 you actually want to get a no crime result for a ton of clears lol)

dry jungle
#

I fake claim Seer as PM but like if you can only do that for like only one role and 2 other exceptions I think theres a issue

raw tangle
#

Sheriff only works because of necronomicon detection immunity but thats another debate that I brought up yesterday

fallen crag
raw tangle
#

All of them do have the whole "my guilties are impossible to get out of without calling frame"

icy berry
#

infinite use abilities don't count obviously

raw tangle
gaunt cipher
#

mfw we skip TI

limpid bane
gaunt cipher
#

everyone ignored it which is funny so theres that

limpid bane
#

oh 💀

next forum
#

new crime: truancy

  • if a player does not visit on a night when they are capable, they will show as having committed truancy. does not apply to roles that cannot visit or that visit astrally.
gaunt cipher
#

5 roles in every faction

gaunt cipher
#

that isnt just town

#

like literally every evil role that can visit will be visiting

limpid bane
gaunt cipher
#

and the town ones that wont are monarch vigi trapper

limpid bane
#

since tp self protects likely arent used very early

gaunt cipher
#

theres legit only 1 for coven and thats like

#

dreamweaver probably

#

just not a good idea to check if a visiting role didnt visit when the majority that dont visit are town

#

and are unable to be easily faked

dry jungle
#

guys im cooking trust

#

New Crime: Vandalism

  • Any evils to use a ability on your target will be given a Ticket

  • This will notify you if that player has attacked and reveals what they are

gaunt cipher
next forum
#

new crime: loitering

  • if a player visits the same player multiple times in one game, they will be charged with loitering.
dry jungle
#

so what does being charged do

gaunt cipher
#

no role but tp

next forum
gaunt cipher
#

yet again a useless crime

next forum
#

i'm just spitballing lmao

limpid bane
#

the issue is like

gaunt cipher
#

ur not putting thought into them

#

whatsoever

limpid bane
#

the fact we have 8 TI is absurd

gaunt cipher
#

so its gonna be low quality

gaunt cipher
dry jungle
icy berry
dry jungle
#

Astral - Town Investigative: At the start of the game you will learn all roles out of play

gaunt cipher
limpid bane
gaunt cipher
#

or on par

dry jungle
#

is there any of them that could be a possible role

gaunt cipher
#

botc roles?
most of them are already taken

#

or were old concepts that just will not work anymore in tos2

fallen crag
#

There's no actual rule all the buckets have to be equal in size and TI are probably the best to have most of

#

And TS

#

TK/TP honestly don't need to have a ton of roles in them this aint overwatch

sinful sequoia
#

lol

#

tp having 5 roles is kinda insane to me

#

i dont think theres an insane amount of niches you need to cover regarding protective abilities

#

same with tk

fallen crag
#

Mhm

polar cloud
#

Just nuke BG CLERIC CRUS

fallen crag
#

And also just in general

polar cloud
#

Oracle / Trapper arent reliable

#

and TP shouldnt be reliable

fallen crag
#

Spamming the town with protection and killing doesn't lead to fun gameplay imo

sinful sequoia
#

if you add anymore tk you might aswell just take social deduction out of the tags and then replace it with "first person shooter"

fallen crag
#

Since, if TP or TK can't act they have zero impact on the game as well

#

Yep

sinful sequoia
#

ideally i think there should be like 3 tk like

#

do we need more then 3 tk

#

at all

fallen crag
#

Not really !

#

In general I think having less protective roles also leads to more fun gameplay

sinful sequoia
fallen crag
#

(Lack of Protectives) incentivises town to lie in order to confuse evils into making bad kills & plays - TP just give them immunity and they don't need to do that

sinful sequoia
#

or any solo killer for that matter

sinful sequoia
#

exaggeration but

fallen crag
#

There's no real reason to lie because of how safe the surplus of TP makes the town, therefore it leads to massclaim meta because in this scenario town just being honest is the best way to win.

sinful sequoia
#

you get what i mean

fallen crag
#

Yeaaaaa

sinful sequoia
#

i get why TP need to be in some list but i feel like the actual raw skill youd need to win a tos2 would surge significantly if you just

#

didnt have a gazillion tps and tks every game

fallen crag
#

TP are fine but not when they make up more than half the town 😭

sinful sequoia
#

problem with capping TPs is that you cap evil claimspace too

#

so its a rough spot to be in

fallen crag
#

Yeah but

#

I don't think there needs to be a cap, just

#

Don't introduce 40 new TP roles

sinful sequoia
#

mhm

fallen crag
#

I'd rather have TI and TS

#

You can actually do interesting things with those

sinful sequoia
#

well first we need to address what TS actually wants to be 😭

fallen crag
#

(Botc townsfolk are like 90% "TI and TS" - most of them don't really translate over to TOS tho sadly)

sinful sequoia
#

it just feels like a dumping ground

#

for like

#

any role that doesnt fit any other slot

fallen crag
#

I mean

#

I think it being a misc category is fine

sinful sequoia
#

it needs some cohesion still imo

fallen crag
#

Maybe that's just my botc brain talking tho LUL

#

Since that doesn't particularly have rolebuckets

#

TOS does need them tbf

timber phoenix
#

Town of Salem 2 Alignments
Town Support: the "misc" bucket
The Town bucket: also exists ig

sinful sequoia
#

yeah i mean TOS is kind of a poorly designed game all things considered but its like

raw tangle
sinful sequoia
#

what are you gonna do about it

raw tangle
#

(Also like. Most tos TI are not roles you can easily stuff a game full of)

sinful sequoia
fallen crag
#

So I disagree on that one

#

I think it was still a very viable strategy there as well for town

raw tangle
#

Then ill take a deeper dive.
What do we get out of massclaim, in both All Any and a Ranked list?

In a Ranked List, we gain the ability to solve by counting bucket claims, generating clears based on how many of each claim exists. As more players flip, these clears become much easier to parse. In addition to this, since Coven (and Mafia in tos1) lack significant options for strongmans to bypass the guaranteed TP slots, a strategy similar to the ever popular Follow the Cop arises but with TPow usually.
In All Any, rolelist deduction doesn’t exist. You cannot guarantee the existence of TP, either, since there is no set slots. So… we maybe catch a lie because scum weren’t paying attention? Which might not even help in the first place because it can spawn majority non-Town.

So why do people massclaim in All Any? Probably because that’s just what they’re used to.

#

Honestly it seems difficult to actually parse the effectiveness of massclaim in all any since like
Rand determines so much for it lmao

#

…man I feel really cynical today

lucid cairn
grand ocean
#

Someone yell at me later to update links

#

or someone else do it for me B)

#

format is
Day # - [Text](Message Link)

#

We only have up to Mon atm

tacit cliff
#

One message removed from a suspended account.

polar cloud
#

Trapper my beloved

#

Its strong

#

maybe a lil bit too strong

#

its unreliable

#

but man

#

does it feel good to hit that trap from the grave

#

the amount of times I clutched in TOS1 by placing a trap on a not-that-confirmed townie

#

that ended up living to the final 2

#

I vividly remember one game

#

where I placed on a unconfirmed scummy medium in final 3

#

I died

#

and the next night medium said "yo" in dead chat

#

followed by a "Your trap attacked someone"

next forum
#

either remove its kill power or limit its information

polar cloud
#

"Your trap was triggered by the Godfather"

#

Nerfed KP and info

#

while still keeping both

dry jungle
#

I did make trap into redirection but its not really good either lol

next forum
#

i just think it shouldn't kill

polar cloud
polar cloud
next forum
#

make the trap roleblock attackers and tell the trapper someone attacked but remove the extra info

dry jungle
#

I just remade beekeeper into trapper lol

dry jungle
polar cloud
dry jungle
#

crusader

next forum
#

you can keep the normal info if triggered otherwise

polar cloud
#

did you play trapper in TOS2

dry jungle
#

Trapper ( Town Protective )

Alignment:

** Attack Attack:** None
** Defense Defense:** None

Trap (♾️)

  • Every night build a Trap down to passively activate the following night.

Snare (Passive)

  • All visitors caught in your Trap that night will have their ability inverted upon themselves.
  • This action cannot be performed if you haven't placed a Trap down.

Attributes

  • Roles/Effects that cannot be caught: Illusion, Witch , Controlled players and Astral Visitors.
  • You cannot place a Trap after your Snare has activated.

Victory Conditions

  • Lynch all criminals and evildoers.
next forum
#

yeah keep it that way

polar cloud
#

because its not a thing since TOS2 released

#

Trapper in TOS2 doesnt get ANY info when their trap kill some fucker

next forum
#

i'm just covering all my bases

polar cloud
#

Snaring the coven kill will force coven to self with vig

dry jungle
#

Lowers it which was the issue no?

polar cloud
#

it doesnt lower it

#

Trapper only get KP if their target is attacked

polar cloud
dry jungle
#

I was thinking of just making it apply for evils?

#

instead of sabotaging town accidently

polar cloud
#

self with vig = killing themselves

dry jungle
#

correct

polar cloud
#

I just assumed it was automodded

dry jungle
#

yeah only witches can do that correct

polar cloud
#

its current trapper with extra rules

dry jungle
#

KP but with a redirection ability

#

that doesnt help most times aside from attacks

polar cloud
#

yeah so current trapper

#

current trapper only attacks when attacked

dry jungle
#

yeah makes sense

#

how would u fix trapper anyway without killing abilities

polar cloud
#

I

#

posted

#

my rework

#

twice

polar cloud
dry jungle
#

okiii

sinful sequoia
limpid bane
#

id rather nerf the information part and give it more utility all around as a TP

craggy salmon
#

Have it not reveal the roles that visited the target, but the amount of the aligned players.
For example: 2 townies, 1 coven and 1 neutral visited your trap
So it becomes more of a scum claim

polar cloud
#

Trapper is already a scum claim

craggy salmon
#

Even more than it is now

icy berry
#

me as real trapper when I get mislynched for not pretending I'm some other tp

craggy salmon
gaunt cipher
gaunt cipher
#

I want trapper to be the all rounder of the tp bucket since it literally has everything already

limpid bane
#

Trapper - Town Protective

Attack: Basic Defense: None
Abilities
Build your trap
Place your trap

Build (Passive)

If you do not have a charge of trap or trap placed, you will passively gain one at the end of the night

Trap (0 | Night)

Consume a charge of trap and place it on a player
Traps will persist until a non town member visits them or the trapped player gets attacked
If your trap gets triggered by an attack, block the attack and deal the attacker a basic attack
Astral attacks will be blocked by traps, but no counterattack
If your trap fails to kill anyone, the trap gets refunded

Attributes

You learn when traps get triggered
Building a trap is roleblock immune
You may not block unstoppable attacks

building trap being RB immune is just so it doesnt suck to play, can be removed

#

havent polished it but here it is

#

any thoughts or

gaunt cipher
#

can you have multiple traps at once

#

also just remember that it now no longer kills NK CL Jackal Vampire (solo) and Bers with only basic attack

#

sometimes it also won't be able to kill inquisitor

limpid bane
gaunt cipher
#

basic defense does need more of a meaning though so it's fine I believe

limpid bane
#

i was thinking of a "bleed" mechanic

#

thats a roleblock on the next night

#

if the target lives

#

but that wouldnt be very good on trapper against NK imo

raw tangle
#

Trapper huh

#

Well

#

I have already written multiple walls on it here

#

💀

limpid bane
limpid bane
#

trapper is a slower but "heavy duty" TP

#

should it learn the faction that the trap triggered

#

like "Neutral Pariah / Coven has triggered the trap"

lucid cairn
lucid cairn
sinful sequoia
limpid bane
#

yes

sinful sequoia
#

good

grand ocean
#

Ig we're going to TPs next?

#

fine by me

#

Oracle

-# scroll down we are doing spy instead

dry jungle
#

I like Oracle

#

there's a rework for it though

polar cloud
#

Oracle should trip and die

dry jungle
#

Idk where it went

#

noooo let the poor thing live its life

upper fable
#

did we do a workshop for TI?

dry jungle
grand ocean
dry jungle
#

here though yes

grand ocean
#

let's pretend it happened 👍

upper fable
#

I meant like a workshop day

dry jungle
# upper fable huh?

Oh I thought this was considered a workshop cause there's sections for these

dry jungle
upper fable
#

oh

#

no like

#

after each subalign we do a workshop day

#

normally

polar cloud
#

I mean

#

main issue is that we have too many TI

grand ocean
#

I need to update links now gimme a sec

polar cloud
#

I wouldnt be against murdering some of them

#

like psy can die in a fire

grand ocean
#

if people can backread and start linking meesages to me that'd be great

dry jungle
#

I will be summoning my conjurer meteor on coroner and spy ty

grand ocean
#

Hub 3

[Day 37a - Invest](#1289713020385099808 message)
[Day 37b - BG](#1289713020385099808 message)
[Day 38 - Trapper](#1289713020385099808 message)
[Day 39 - Spy](#1289713020385099808 message)

#

wait

#

We haven't done Spy or Psy

#

ok screw Orac we're finishing TI first

#

Spy

dry jungle
#

Spy is just.. Spy

dry jungle
#

#1303093555375505440

limpid bane
#

dont really mind if current spy + scout got merged for that

#

since it gives it more coverage

#

but then again

#

coroner

dry jungle
#

Coroner just needs a rework in general

polar cloud
#

coroner is fine

limpid bane
#

not really

polar cloud
#

They are

#

they just need ADGEE buff

limpid bane
#

its too slow + other TI have its kit but better

grand ocean
#

Links are up to Date

polar cloud
#

hiyaaa

#

this joke was terrible sorry

dry jungle
polar cloud
#

Balls keyword

grand ocean
glossy lark
grand ocean
#

or that works

glossy lark
#

im not them but there

grand ocean
#

heh

polar cloud
#

Nunny fucking transcended the need to be a staff

image.png
fallen crag
#

How dar eu zz

#

LUL

grand ocean
#

lol

fallen crag
#

I was always up there tbf

grand ocean
#

that's so true tho

polar cloud
#

Idk I dont read

fallen crag
#

I'm always offline usually

#

I got told by curt to be online so people can uh see I'm hired ig LOL

polar cloud
fallen crag
#

wh-

#

why can u ping curt

#

this mf automod

glossy lark
#

only tuba is filtered

polar cloud
#

we can always ping curt

grand ocean
#

LOL

polar cloud
#

tuba cant be pinged

fallen crag
#

ah right

#

Did curt disable that then?

grand ocean
#

yeah only tuba's filtered

fallen crag
#

It used to be both curt & tuba

grand ocean
#

it is

polar cloud
#

IIRC curt disabled it

fallen crag
#

Fair enough

#

Very noble

grand ocean
#

very annoying (speaking from experience when I tried to reach him last time)

polar cloud
#

I mean it also means they are prone to my shitposting attempts

#

sooooo Trollface

grand ocean
#

lmao

polar cloud
#

oh looks like twitch prime expired brb

grand ocean
#

2nd petition for this post to get more war reacts B)

polar cloud
sinful sequoia
dry jungle
#

or theyre talking abt smth else

sinful sequoia
#

i thought it was a tf2 reference

#

lmfao

ionic garden
#

real

lucid cairn
gaunt cipher
#

let's skip TI

#

nobody cares about the red spy

limpid bane
#

blue spies on the other hand...

gaunt cipher
#

we love blue spies

sinful sequoia
#

nobody talks about how unbalanced engineer is though

#

it completely fucks over neutrals

gaunt cipher
#

well yeah that's kinda it's job

#

at least heavy kills the entire town, unlike soldier

grand ocean
#

we're doing Spy

lucid cairn
#

It wasn't even a day...

grand ocean
#

we haven't covered Spy or Psy

#

and haven't done a overall workshop day

#

All linkes are up to date tho

sinful sequoia
#

i thought you just jumped to trapper as a joke cause trapper has investigative properties

grand ocean
#

LOL

#

no

#

we also had a BG discussion

#

before Trapper

#

we were moving to TP and then I realized that we weren't finished with TI

polar cloud
#

Psy can die in a fire and spy is fineish

sinful sequoia
#

^^

#

psy is a lazy role no matter how much convincing you give me

#

rng TI the role isnt really fun for anyone

grand ocean
#

we should make psy FT frfr
surely this won't overlap with any role whatsoever!

lucid cairn
#

However I don't like how it's foolproof (if it is?)

polar cloud
#

well there is an issue

#

is that framed roles are seen as their true role when visiting a bugged target

#

this should be changed

sinful sequoia
#

i forgot thats a thing

grand ocean
#

ig it should show as ench/sc/warlock then?

sinful sequoia
#

lmao i love it when enchanter hard confirms a townie

grand ocean
#

I feel like that's just a minor interaction

#

still 💀

lucid cairn
gaunt cipher
#

can we just skip ti im kinda bored of them

#

it's really the same situation

dry jungle
#

there's too many of them to go through istg

#

burn it

gaunt cipher
#

'needs a buff' or 'too op needs a nerf'

#

there's basically nothing to discuss with TI, it's the most boring bucket to discuss in the game

dry jungle
#

do we go back to oracle

gaunt cipher
#

Ask the owner

lucid cairn
#

Not for all of them anyway

#

I think the most boring is Coven Deception

gaunt cipher
#

CD at least has unique ideas going for it

#

TI has 0 of that

ionic garden
#

I feel the need to mention that there is not much more information left to be gathered outside of directly getting their role leaving only roles that are hyper slow but can get that info, or roles that get already collectable info in new ways, hell, in the Say a role name and next has to make it chain I made a TI who only gathered known info and was unaffected by Deception but was unreliable by guaranteeing that some of that info would be false.

lucid cairn
#

Tweak Enchanter, buff Illusionist, buff Medusa, overhaul Dreamweaver

dry jungle
#

Pardoning DW goes hard

#

medusa is fine currently, temps rework pretty much made it good enough

lucid cairn
#

Oh I forgot it got added

#

Yeah it's alright

#

I keep thinking about base-game

dry jungle
#

wild how 2 of temps ideas got added, both were good though (Admirer is debatable still)

dry jungle
lucid cairn
lucid cairn
dry jungle
#

or I read it wrong I forgot

#

would recommend checking #1201939324556288050

lucid cairn
#

It's whatever

#

It's pretty similar to Crusader since it's a bouncing role

dry jungle
#

its just as annoying to deal with

#

reap 6 and they die Admirer: fuck you!

lucid cairn
#

So why is Admirer debatable?

#

I'd imagine it's annoying to deal with but not that strong outside of that

dry jungle
lucid cairn
#

Mhm

dry jungle
#

So I still stand by debatable because I wouldnt go back to old admirer either

lucid cairn
#

I'd be wanting to test Admirer blocking attacks but delaying them by a night

#

So they'd still die but not immediately

dry jungle
#

ohhhh so chronomancer sort of to act as a warning for tps to coordinate and protect them

pallid crystal
#

:/

dry jungle
#

yeah its a tp that has good synergy with BG

pallid crystal
#

also

#

could you not just

#

constantly delay an attack?

dry jungle
#

I would say it would have a indecisive clause

#

to keep it from spam-delay

pallid crystal
dry jungle
#

TP synergy

#

not really a tp itself

lucid cairn
#

Town Protectives stop the attack altogether

#

Delaying it keeps the kill but just not the night it's afflicted

lucid cairn
pallid crystal
lucid cairn
#

A player cannot be accompanied twice in a row, regardless of which Admirer did it.

pallid crystal
lucid cairn
pallid crystal
pallid crystal
#

I remember doing it

#
  • not listed on the rolecard anywhere
lucid cairn
#

Even if it wasn't then it should be added

pallid crystal
#

current admi doesn't really need a spam same person prevention imo

lucid cairn
#

Idgaf

pallid crystal
lucid cairn
#

Yes and I also do not give a damn

lucid cairn
pallid crystal
#

admirer doesn't need blocking attacks

lucid cairn
#

Well I wouldn't say it's fine as is

pallid crystal
#

or delaying them

#

because I know you will nitpick my usage of block

lucid cairn
#

That's just you being insecure

dry jungle
pallid crystal
lucid cairn
#

Maybe not

#

I'd prefer not

pallid crystal
#

admirer got what 3 reworks(?) and is still ass

lucid cairn
#

But if it would need it then I guess

dry jungle
#

Im telling you make admirer cupid

lucid cairn
lucid cairn
pallid crystal
dry jungle
lucid cairn
pallid crystal
dry jungle
#

its the admirer overhaul from vanilla lmao

pallid crystal
lucid cairn
dry jungle
#

tuba 🟰 = getting added next update

pallid crystal
dry jungle
#

Tuba taking off his 🟰 after hearing that:

dry jungle
pallid crystal
#

at the very very least atleast cupid isn't a role that lifelinks people

lucid cairn
dry jungle
#

It's not I would never do that... aha

#

aha

lucid cairn
#

Anyway

dry jungle
#

definitely didnt make cupid tpow and made it life link if they were both evil

pallid crystal
#

wsdwas

#

I hate #

dry jungle
#

Nobody is safe 😃

pallid crystal
#

DEATH INCOMING

lucid cairn
#

Can you not wezontseeit

dry jungle
#

anyway what was this about again

lucid cairn
#

Admirer

dry jungle