Ritualist Rework

[steady gale]

which is terrible

[narrow rune]

a draft

[steady seal]

so any time a hexed player is lynched

?

[narrow rune]

yeah

[steady seal]

ok no

thats too much

[narrow rune]

i should make it if a coven member is lynched, the bomb is disabled the next day

[steady gale]

the hm shouldn't be invincible

[steady seal]

literally that means if you mislynch hexed player or outted evil thats hexed

its fucking gg

[narrow rune]

essentially im making it mimic my horsemen

[narrow rune]

the bomb is active

you should not lynch outted non coven

[narrow rune]

specifically acting as a weaker death

[steady seal]

hex master shouldn’t have a hex bomb really

[steady gale]

also hm as a concept shouldn't have defense in my opinion

it's kinda one of those things that anything should be able to kill

[narrow rune]

mimicking my horsemen

[steady gale]

but why

it's a coven role

[steady seal]

coven shouldn’t possess basic defense

[narrow rune]

i have berserker mimick coven leader

[steady seal]

outside cl maybe

[narrow rune]

why not have hm mimick death

[steady gale]

honestly I'd be fine with just none of the coven having defense

rather than normalizing it across the cpow

[steady seal]

why do you have apoc, then have coven be a pseudo apoc

???

[steady gale]

and making them "mimic horsemen"

[narrow rune]

not my goal

[steady gale]

which just sounds dumb

[narrow rune]

as a link between the factions

[steady seal]

they directly oppose eachother

[steady gale]

but why

[steady seal]

mind you they will kill eachother

[narrow rune]

thought it was cool

and i didnt think it was fair apocs the only one who gets to mimic the other faction

[steady seal]

apoc doesnt mimic coven?

unless this is a worsttos thing

[narrow rune]

i literally said 'my'

[steady seal]

i still don’t think factions should mimic eachother

[narrow rune]

its just a cool linking thing

originally it was just a punishment for giving berserker apocnomicon

'ok you wanna break the faction dynamic? go be a worse coven'

'enjoy your abilities'

[karmic granite]

Even in botc, the vast majority of Demons follow the "kill someone each night" rule of thumb

[narrow rune]

yeah i am aware

[karmic granite]

Garden of Sin looks to be the exception, although that also works because the game is built around it

Ya I wasnt disagreeing with u lol

[narrow rune]

i did do a reverse for apoc tho

[karmic granite]

I was saying thats why its not rlly a bad thing if factions are similar

[narrow rune]

everyone but the demons do the attacking

[karmic granite]

Garden of Sin also has Riot

[narrow rune]

oh no

[karmic granite]

Which is insane

[narrow rune]

oh yeah also me when coven roll hex master as their leader and apoc roll berserker as their demon

(they literally just worse versions of each other)

[steady gale]

I am confused by your balance philosophy

[narrow rune]

keep it simple and if possible, make the evil teams be able to mirror one another

[lethal wharf]

I do not want two carbon copies of factions, make them unique or merge them

[karmic granite]

Honestly a big question in general anyway

How do you make multiple conflicting evil teams an interesting dynamic

[pine heath]

||very carefully||

[karmic granite]

So not what tos did at all LMFAO

[pine heath]

Town of Salem always struggled to make a good secondary faction

Tos1, coven only had 6 roles

Tos2, apoc only had 4 roles

TiS, they did not

[mint fiber]

btos2 is saving coven (and hopefully apoc?)

[pine heath]

Vanilla coven is pretty much okay with role variety

the faction where you know exactly what 4 members a 4 member team gets is the one with tue uniqueness problem

[ashen ledge]

Honestly? It's not a problem

And it doesn't really overlap

[narrow rune]

they are unique

[ashen ledge]

They share some similarities in terms of purpose but they're on different alignments

[small crest]

oh I agree

its just what some people said

[ashen ledge]

Oh

Fair enough

[small crest]

mainly the main argument of people who are against this idea

[narrow rune]

its just that one of their major power roles gets to give them a taste of what the other sides like

[ashen ledge]

Right

I do understand people not thinking this role fits in Coven Killing

Originally I had this concept is Utility

[small crest]

I'm fine this being utility

[narrow rune]

counterpoint to them, cks going away

[ashen ledge]

True, but do you want 7 Utility and 2 Killing?

I'm fine with that but I also want Coven Killing gone

So...

[ripe glen]

Well, if there's 0 Coven Killing... And also, name 1 person who genuinely uses Coven Utility instead of Random Coven in a serious balanced role list.

I just don't think it's happened.

I guess the point is, it doesn't necessarily matter if a role bucket has a lot of roles, considering we use Random Coven regardless.

[narrow rune]

ahkilles

[ashen ledge]

I'll use Coven Utility instead of Random Coven if I think the list I'm building doesn't need a lot of Random Slots

But generally that's only for a 10v5 setup

[ashen ledge]

It's not really the fact that Coven Utility has 7, it's more the fact that Coven Killing would only have 2

[narrow rune]

ive never actually used the utility/deception subalignments

[ashen ledge]

Meaning a slot would literally just be a 50/50

[ripe glen]

A role list that is here, I mean.

Like, TT, Coven Ranked.

[narrow rune]

oh yeah

[karmic granite]

I mean the idea of CK being dissolved is a possibility here

[ashen ledge]

If that's what people want then sure whatever, but there's a huge gap between Conjurer and Jinx so like... eugh

[ripe glen]

Oh yeah for sure. But CK wouldn't exist.

[narrow rune]

pretty sure thats gonna happen

[karmic granite]

Maybe

[narrow rune]

with jinx and conj being mutually exclusive cpows

[karmic granite]

I wouldn't hold my breath but I hope we can try out some cool new balance stuff

[narrow rune]

i still think jinx should go mirror this rit

visit guessing is cool as hell and counters tp pocketting

[ashen ledge]

I wouldn't want Jinx to be Coven Power

[lethal wharf]

Hopefully the plan is to make jinx not kill anymore

[visual mason]

then what the fuck

is jinx then

[lethal wharf]

A badly designed role

[visual mason]

but isn't it jus

*just

ambusher form tos1

renamed

[jagged turtle]

With the book you should additionally deal a basic attack to the target of blood ritual

[lethal wharf]

Yeah, Ambusher sucks ass

[jagged turtle]

Ambusher was kinda better in tos1

[visual mason]

literally what is the difference?

[jagged turtle]

Different meta

You could visit twice with a lot more roles. Less confirming roles

[visual mason]

what other roles could visit twice?

[jagged turtle]

Always a free kill if you went on jailor claim

[visual mason]

other than like

transporter?

[jagged turtle]

No like

Escort wasn’t blocked to 1 rb

Also mainly jailor heavy meta

People were a lot more open about claims so you could get info on where people were visiting better

[lethal wharf]

I don't like Ambusher/jinx for the same reasons

[steady gale]

ambusher was also in a faction that wasn't already so focused on kill power

[lethal wharf]

1. Can basically give 2kpn
2. Is very rng dependant on who you kill
3. Just reveals itself to everyone

[narrow rune]

ambusher is shit because its uncapped kpower, no control over who gets attacked, only weakness is the

message

[lethal wharf]

That's why it shouldn't of existed

[steady gale]

mafia was a deception and information faction first

[lethal wharf]

Mafia is balanced

[narrow rune]

mafia was pretty in the shitter

[lethal wharf]

Give it tmk and mafia is perfect

[narrow rune]

non unique roles and forger/jani redundancy was pretty vad

also frames were next to worthless

[steady gale]

mafia had an imbalance when it came to its roles, just like coven does

the mafia just didn't have anything egregiously strong

[narrow rune]

disguiser had no control over what they targets appeared as

[lethal wharf]

Tbf town is stupidly strong as is

[steady seal]

mafia was a good concept, executed poorly

[lethal wharf]

We should be nerfing certain town roles honestly

[steady seal]

low killpower forcused on deception

[narrow rune]

mafia fucking bores me because of how lame and Identity lacking the roles were

[steady gale]

ya that's mafia's other problem, the town was WAY too strong when nothing needed to be compensated for

[narrow rune]

and coven had so much kpower

it was even worse

[steady gale]

but now the coven is overall too strong too

[narrow rune]

this fuses both and eliminates mafias flaws

while keeping a lot of covens

[steady gale]

ya the coven was ridiculous in tos1

[lethal wharf]

Tbf with the newest changes I think coven is almost good

[narrow rune]

this being tos2

[steady gale]

it was essentially the speedrun faction

[lethal wharf]

A few roles need fixing a coven is great

[steady gale]

which made the 9v6 setting of coven ranked incredibly awful

[lethal wharf]

9v6 is stupid as hell

And shows how unbalanced town is

[mint fiber]

coven ranked was 10v5

[narrow rune]

we talking bout vranked

[mint fiber]

oh i thought they meant the casual list

sry

[loud lake]

#1227373303661068398
Just to branch more off of this post into a megathread bc removing CK is more than reworking rit anyways.

and also since it's probs getting added in, might as well discuss it more thoughly

[lethal wharf]

This is just getting worse and worse Jesus

What is actually happening with discord mobile

[karmic granite]

They were listening to the cha cha slide but the song never said "take it back now y'all"

[subtle dawn]

The thing about Jinx is that the only Tpow it can kill is Monarch. It mainly kills shitty roles in an attempt to bumrush majority. Conjurer mainly kills Town Powers. They are like two sides of a coin.

[ashen ledge]

Yeah I hate how inconsistent Jinx is

Can't kill Deputy, Veteran, Retributionist, Socialite, Amnesiac, and all of the Powers except Monarch, and even then they can have defense

[lethal wharf]

#1227415822469955694

Take the bait

Do it

[subtle dawn]

Conjurer is one of the better Coven to have the book because they have no night ability. -- -- Hex Master sucks because it does nothing the majority of the game. Being able to kill something doesn't mean it invalidates something lol. That's like saying Deputy invalidates NK because it has powerful attack. It kills Coven just the same.

[steady seal]

hex is powerful

hex can double kpn silently

[subtle dawn]

no its not lol. You are better off giving Hex the book

[steady seal]

and kill immune

[subtle dawn]

Hex Master does nothing the entire game.

[steady seal]

are you the dumb

[subtle dawn]

The times it does something. 99% of the time Coven would of already won the game

[steady seal]

killing horsemen and the arsonist with everyone doused

is useless?

acceleration of the game in your favor

?

[subtle dawn]

You are more likely to die to a crusader, Veteran, WW rampage, get doused by arsonist whatever. Than have your hex bomb save the game

[steady seal]

not true

[subtle dawn]

Yes true

[steady seal]

you are just as likely to die as any other coven

[jagged turtle]

Hex legit is very strong in certain list

It’s just weak in others

[steady seal]

hex passively counters death and the arsonist

hex forces the game to be faster

[subtle dawn]

If you walk into certain roles with your hex that doesn't do anything you could die to them

[steady seal]

thats the risk of being alive

being able to visit is dangerous

[subtle dawn]

I would rather stay home since that is more likely to give me majority than running into random houses

If you hex someone and die to Vet, you confirm a townie and now coven has one less member

[steady seal]

regardless HM is overtuned because of bomb being able to counter arso/death

[subtle dawn]

If you go on TPLO you are risking Percept + LO combo to eat you

[steady seal]

if the coven is shot by vet, guess what? same result

[subtle dawn]

You are risking getting doused for free

[steady seal]

then dont go on tplo n1

?

[subtle dawn]

When the other coven visit randomly people they do something

[steady seal]

yeah

you do something too

[subtle dawn]

If PM reveals a Mayor's role and dies to Crus, coven has something for that

[steady seal]

you hard counter the apocalypse roles

[subtle dawn]

if a Hex hexes a random mayor and dies to crus. they have nothing for that

[steady seal]

“oh shit, this town is important, crus was on them”

[subtle dawn]

The times you are going to hex a transformed apoc is rare as crap

Because they transform much faster than you get to bomb

[steady seal]

not really

outside of coven set lists

[subtle dawn]

You basically have to cherry pick a situation where Baker gives Hex Master bread and all of his hexed targets

[steady seal]

death/famine can be much slower than HM that has access to kpn

[subtle dawn]

When you hex someone you can't kill them

So if you randomly hex the vigilante n1

and he starts blasting your team

[steady seal]

oh also necromancer

[subtle dawn]

you wasted a night hexing this guy that you want dead

right now

[steady seal]

false

[subtle dawn]

Then your not getting a bomb anytime soon bro

[steady seal]

its not worth if they’re say coroner

[subtle dawn]

if your are killing your hex targets

[steady seal]

are you fucking dumb

hex is S+

it can fucking force the game to go much faster

[subtle dawn]

it takes 5 nights to get 5 people hexed right. That is pretending they never lynch those hexed targets, none of those targets are vet

[steady seal]

it can fucking nuke after death with necromancer

it can fucking kill transformed horsemen

it can counter the two biggest lategame threats

[subtle dawn]

Bro you have to survive 5+ nights

to be getting big bombs

most of the time

[steady seal]

not particularly

[subtle dawn]

its like 5 v 3, 5 coven vs 3 town

[steady seal]

with the town power bucket accelerating kills

[subtle dawn]

and your hex bomb goes off

that wasn't gonna matter

[steady seal]

it can matter

it can be one vote off being unable to vote death

[ripe glen]

None of those targets are protected by Crusader, none of those targets are Veteran, none of the targets have scummy claims and you need to mislynch them to preserve your own skin, none of them are TPOW and you need to get rid of them fast,

[subtle dawn]

What matters more is a poisoner killing off a townie. Or the Voodoo master giving me majority two days earlier. Or the Witch controlling the jailor into a misexe. Or the PM revealing the hidden BG so we don't run into the Tpow early

Hex master is so situational thats it is bad

These games go fast

[steady seal]

no

[subtle dawn]

You don't have time to hex all these people in these fast paced games

[steady seal]

and they shouldn’t

CK is being axed in the future

rit is being overhauled

[subtle dawn]

This is not TOS 1, Your hexes have no functionality over the bomb. You won't have a game last till d7 with more than 2 people alive

[steady seal]

jinx too i think

so believe it or not

games actually go past day 3

shocking i know.

[subtle dawn]

Hex master is bad, you are better off giving them astral attack

That way you don't run into Vet or arso n1

or a random ass crus

[steady seal]

astral attack usually doesn’t mean shit

[subtle dawn]

Astral attack saves games

not a shitty hex bomb

[steady seal]

if theres a town power alive TP will be on them

hex bomb can also save games

[subtle dawn]

Astral attack is the difference between you losing a teammate to a BG or you getting majority

[steady seal]

believe it or not, astral attacks is just as useful

[subtle dawn]

What saves more games. Astral attacks or hex bombs

[ripe glen]

Once again, these are All Any issues.

You guys are talking about way different things, @subtle dawn is making good points for actual game modes like TT, Coven Ranked, you are talking about taking the win from horsemen.

[steady seal]

first of all, why are you attacking high value townies with potential bodyguards

[ripe glen]

Astral attacks are way more relevant in balanced modes. Hex Bombs aren't trash, but they usually just speed up a win you already had in the bag.

[subtle dawn]

Trapper can not protect a tpow claim n1 and likely not n3. Oracle can't if they don't know what they are. Crusader is discouraged if they know other TP is in the game

[steady seal]

TT currently is fucking suicide on the vet n1 or take maj

[subtle dawn]

That means you have clerics and Bg's that might be on them, one of which you will run straight through

And Lo's you run straight through

[steady seal]

framer meta still counters trappers partially

killing said lookout is also available

[subtle dawn]

I'm not gonna waste my time killing a LO when the marshal is going to tribunal the next day

[ripe glen]

Astral attacks = maj, Not astral attacks = death by BG

[steady seal]

then be outted

so be it

[subtle dawn]

Then use the hex masters astral attack instead of having him random hex the TK claims

and rolling the dice

[steady seal]

and the roundabout of why the fuck are you going to attack potential BG targets

its just not a good idea

if you’re that scared get yo pm to heal you

[subtle dawn]

Astral attacks helps kill Tpow. You aren't attacking the Jailor faking TK without a Necro, Hex Master or PM

[steady seal]

HM isnt that useful in some modes, sure

overall it can still turn the game into coven favoured

now im going to bed

[lethal wharf]

Tbf astral is kinda a stupid ass mechanic

[ashen ledge]

Hex Master gives the Coven an alternative goal which can end the game a lot earlier

[ripe glen]

Because the Bodyguard is protecting an important person.

[scarlet ledge]

@subtle dawn you suck lol

[subtle dawn]

In all Vanilla All Any I'd rather have a PM or Witch to find hidden threats. Voodoo, CK, or Poisoner for quick maj. Banshee or Enchanter to hurt town's information gathering abilities. Hell I'd rather have Necromancer since maybe an NK might spawn, than a Hex Master. And vanilla all any is the place FOR hex master. It just can't prosper in such quick paced games.

[steady seal]

dont ping me im trying to sleep

thanks

[scarlet ledge]

yeet do you even play anymore I'm curious

[subtle dawn]

I play at times that you do not play

so I do not destroy you

[scarlet ledge]

do not disturb

[scarlet ledge]

I haven't played in 2 weeks

because I get tired of beating you every other day

but if you say so

[jagged turtle]

Bro this is a modded server

[subtle dawn]

game is always dead when I get home anyways

[scarlet ledge]

true

[jagged turtle]

Also fuck balancing for all any

[subtle dawn]

Vanilla All any is when hex master is strongest

[jagged turtle]

No the fuck it’s not

[subtle dawn]

and if it sucks even there. then in set lists it sucks even more

[ashen ledge]

Well no uhm

[jagged turtle]

You just described why it’s bad in vanilla as

[subtle dawn]

We are not counting book passing

[jagged turtle]

This is a modded fucking server

We are

And either way

[ashen ledge]

Hex Master is better with roles that can't randomly kill them or their targets
That's not AA

[subtle dawn]

The argument I was having is whether or not Hex Master should be a book hog or go for a bomb

That's why i'm not counting it

[lethal wharf]

Another person has pissed ch1lly off, dear god

[subtle dawn]

because if I am counting it, then Hex Master is pretty good because I give them the book every time and we haev astral attack

[scarlet ledge]

HM is best in TT

vanilla TT that is

[jagged turtle]

That’s still dumb as hell

[scarlet ledge]

yeet used to swear he beat me in every game

[jagged turtle]

It’s bad with pariah

[subtle dawn]

Astral attack invalidates all TP Vet

[ashen ledge]

I hate Hex Master's astral it's so ugh

[subtle dawn]

LO

[scarlet ledge]

even though he'd do shit like prosecute the unccd cleric

[jagged turtle]

Vet is a shitty role

[scarlet ledge]

in apoc JR

[subtle dawn]

This guy hangs every vet he sees

[scarlet ledge]

the vet had a deputy cc

LOL

[jagged turtle]

Vet claims are weak claims

[subtle dawn]

U hung Vet over confirmed ritualist

and was accused of win farming with Funk

[scarlet ledge]

my guy

it was apoc jr

what are you on

LMAOOOO

[lethal wharf]

Hm is still pretty much 2kpn

[jagged turtle]

Brothers a bit slow

[ashen ledge]

[scarlet ledge]

ah yes cause me and funk would win farm

[lethal wharf]

It's one less person to kill basically

[subtle dawn]

bro was accused of win trading in ranked cuz he played so bad

[scarlet ledge]

I definitely need to win farm in non ranked

[jagged turtle]

Do /stats

[scarlet ledge]

I went 5-5 in ranked but sure

[lethal wharf]

Protect the hex and don't kill hexed players

[scarlet ledge]

???

[lethal wharf]

Simple as that

[ripe glen]

There are situations where it doesn't end up that way, but yeah, it's a gamble.

[jagged turtle]

Bro show the stat line

[scarlet ledge]

like I said hex is good in vanilla tt

[lethal wharf]

Hex is indeed swingy

[ashen ledge]

Hex Master is super B&W

Yeah

[scarlet ledge]

okay in CTT (BTOS)

terrible in any other gamemode

[jagged turtle]

Hex is good in modded as well when no pariah and 4 coven

[scarlet ledge]

only having to hex 10 people is really good

[subtle dawn]

Hex master relies on you hexing the people you don't want to kill and can't kill/lynch via randomness

Give the book, that's not random

[scarlet ledge]

that isn't in CTT for modded so no

[subtle dawn]

let the other coven use their abilities at night

[scarlet ledge]

it's objectively worse in BTOS CTT

[subtle dawn]

atleast they can do something the majority of the game

[lethal wharf]

I wouldn't object to overhauling hex since it's a relic of the past, but it is still capable of "2"kpn

[subtle dawn]

its not 2 kpn bro

[scarlet ledge]

hex is fine

hexes just need to do something

[lethal wharf]

Hex is fine, it could be better

[subtle dawn]

you have to pretend so much for Hex to be 2kpn

it is do nothing the entire game

maybe you do something if coven is already winning

the role

[lethal wharf]

Skill issue honestly

You aren't using it correctly

[subtle dawn]

hexes don't even do anything,. no debuff no frame nothing

bro is gonna use hex correctly n1 off of no info

[lethal wharf]

Honestly frames are a debuff to hex bombing

[subtle dawn]

Its not

It screws seer psychic over so hard

and those are the best ti

[ripe glen]

It also eats enchanter

[lethal wharf]

Because that person is more likely to get lynched

[subtle dawn]

Enchanter would still be better than Hex Master if Hex master framed

[ripe glen]

Getting Townies lynched is better than raw hex bomb from day 1 I think, but Hex should not frame obviously

[subtle dawn]

Alterate is better than bomb on its own

In lists that actually have town

[lethal wharf]

Y'know what is better? Lynching a non hexed player

[subtle dawn]

if you have like 10 neutrals then maybe not

[ripe glen]

I'm not too picky.

lol

[subtle dawn]

Coven do not have control over who has weak claims

[ripe glen]

^

I'll take what I can get.

[lethal wharf]

You can still protect the hexed players?

You gotta gaslight my fella

[subtle dawn]

Protect the hexed player, and instead you lynch your poisoner

because you wanted to inno the hexed guy

[ripe glen]

I wouldn't stick my neck out for a townie when it could end up getting a coven killed later in the day.

[lethal wharf]

It's a social deduction, move suspicion onto other players

[subtle dawn]

and now d5 everyone is confirmed and town still has maj

because you lynched your poisoner instead of the hexed guy

[lethal wharf]

Tbf town needs massive nerfs

[oak pecan]

nerd?

[lethal wharf]

Gotta have massive nerds candy

[subtle dawn]

Hex Master needs to get kicked out of Cpow because its not good

[lethal wharf]

Get crushed by purple

[scarlet ledge]

not really

TPOW needs a hard cap

Deputy needs to be

toned down

everything else is fine

[subtle dawn]

It is way too much of a specialist role to be Cpow. I want generalist Cpow's that are good in every situation. Witch is always good. Coven Leader isn't as strong as Witch but I know what to expect with it

[oak pecan]

Socialite?

[scarlet ledge]

socialite isn't in modded

[lethal wharf]

If town is mostly winning 9v6s, something is wrong

[subtle dawn]

To the butchers

[scarlet ledge]

socialite and admi have problems too

[oak pecan]

Vigi?

[scarlet ledge]

Vigi is the last thing you need to look at

[subtle dawn]

I think town should have a higher winrate, like if its just coven and Town I would prefer 60% to 40% because Town has more players

[scarlet ledge]

Dep and the TPOWs are problematic

[ripe glen]

Coven Leader rework will be very good, and it is confirmed to be added to BTOS2

[subtle dawn]

When you have town winning above 70% something is very wrong

[lethal wharf]

Remove a bullet and remove guilt, it's more balanced in secret killers

[scarlet ledge]

realistically it should be 50% town, 40% coven, 5% neutrals

[oak pecan]

Yeah

[subtle dawn]

Yeah if there is neutrals then I'd like those odds

[scarlet ledge]

and the other 5% is like NE

[subtle dawn]

5% error to give up to whoever

[scarlet ledge]

yeah

[jagged turtle]

Why. Town is meant to be a uniformed majority. They’re majority is the only advantage they have over coven who’s advantage is being informed

[subtle dawn]

Players win rate would be low if town lost most of the time. Losing a lot isn't fun. So town winning slightly more is kkay

[narrow rune]

yeah just cuz towns tbe good guys doesnt mean they should have the biggest winrate

it should be roughly equal

[subtle dawn]

Neutrals is the same way but more exaggerated. Should this one guy be winning just as much as the 9 townies? No obviously he's one guy.

[narrow rune]

what

dude that legit makes no sense

nks are uninformed minority

their only advantage is their role itself

[subtle dawn]

If your faction has less players you should win less. Coven shouldn't win as much as Town and I am using the absurdity of Nk winning as much as town to provide an example.

[narrow rune]

but they dont

nks fucking suck

[ashen ledge]

Sigh

[ashen ledge]

Girl no

Most of my games Hex Master has carried more times than not

[steady gale]

I've experienced it the same way, hex bombs are sometimes just for the funny cutscene but most of the time they end up being crucial to the coven's win

it's the reason hm is one of the coven roles I have 5 wins on, since hex bomb kinda just carries you through it in endgame situations

[narrow rune]

i have never seen bomb ever come in clutch

[steady gale]

I once won against a tp chain in a 2v1 with a hex bomb, then there was another time where I won in a 2v2 against a bg and famine, where the bg had both vests and was siding famine, and then there was this other time where I won while alone and surrounded by 4 confirmed townies and a jest, where I won with a surprise hex bomb after we hanged the jest

I also got particularly carried by hex master being astral on the last one, since I hit the retri's crus more than once

hm is actually crazy for endgame situations like that, because it basically ensures that no position in the game is hopeless

[ashen ledge]

Right

[loud lake]

my first vanilla game with marsh in it:
was rit in a 2v1v1v1 (marsh cleric,rit (me),bers, arso), told marsh "vigi n3: shooting 3: (immune), pls say you're real tpow claim"
"and 3 evils, perfect."
sheeped that marshal to the death XD

[oak flint]

I generally like this take on fixing Ritualist, but I have some issues.

1. This is not a CK, but that's not really an issue if we #1227373303661068398.
2. Why the fuck can't this guess TI???

[ripe glen]

I don't think Tuba goes back and edits his posts on here. But that was talked about already, sir. He said that it might be the case that if he changes Ritualist in this way, he would change its alignment, then make conjurer and Jinx mutually exclusive.

If I had to assume, I think he writes down feedback, and if he goes forward with the idea as a whole, he will go to his notes.

[oak flint]

I hate arbitrarily making roles mutually exclusive

conj could be moved to TPow and jinx needs an overhaul

CPow*

[ripe glen]

Kidnapper and Ambusher were mutually exclusive in BetterTOS1. I'm surprised you're saying this because you would normally be totally up for reducing kill power as far as practicable. This is how you do that. Hard cap the amount of independent killers so that Coven Power roles can actually be Powerful instead of "Well, extra kills would be better".

[oak flint]

I think coven having extra kills period is dumb

my solution is move conj to CPow, making it a bucket with a weakened witch and a buffed cl/hm, and then to overhaul rit and jinx into other buckets

keeping their respective niches of anticlaim/(theoretical) anti-TPLO but making the punishment not death

[steady gale]

I'm still in the boat of thinking that conj shouldn't take the switch with no changes

[subtle dawn]

If you like Hex Master, and you scroll Hex Masters, you will see more Hex Master bombs. For example, In TOS 1 I have about the same amount of Forger wins as Consort wins. That isn't because Consort is better than Forger it's because I scroll Forger because its fun. -- I also think if you really have that many hex bombs, that you are just getting odd luck. For example, I have seen very many Retributionist clutches in TOS1, and it's not because Retributionist is a strong role it's just because of luck.

[steady gale]

I do not like hex master nor do I scroll it

I just win with it more when I get it because it's easy

also I played pretty well to get to that position in all of those games, so it wasn't necessarily luck

the only real luck is that I happened to be hm and not another coven role

since I won solely because of hex bomb

[oak pecan]

I agree with you as well, but in reality it's almost impossible

Because of the powercreep issue

[frozen jay]

Reducing coven kills one be one part of the issue fixed Next should be town and NE.

[pine heath]

Conjurer (Town Power)

[karmic granite]

One step at a time alr?

[lethal wharf]

Sorry to inform you but hyper is like one of the toy caterpillars with like 20 feet and it looks like 10 people standing in a line

Doxing hyper

[oak flint]

its almost impossible to balance TOS one step at a time.
For example, a CPow Conjurer doesn't make sense while Jinx and Ritualist can still kill.

But if Conjurer is the Coven's only source of an extra kill...

It's a lot more powerful

[random oak]

mm make it guess TIs

i think that makes it balanced

[pine heath]

he didn't update original

but im pretty sure it does that now

[random oak]

oh my fault

[steady gale]

I think another idea that may be coming up for it is making it not lose a charge on an unsuccessful guess

[small crest]

i mean

curts not a fan of this idea

[narrow rune]

guessing its cuz it cant kill

[violet vigil]

common curtis L

[small crest]

because it overlaps with SS

[narrow rune]

oh

[small crest]

well i havent edited the og post but this role is utility

[narrow rune]

i dont really see how that matters tho

rits a coven

stars a pariah

star also does it better

[small crest]

oracle and trapper can protect an isolated person

technically

if trap is placed before isolation

[narrow rune]

oh yeah

still wish starspawn blocked that

like disabling traps and protection abilities alongside the bouncing

[ashen ledge]

I don't think that's a problem still 😭

They're on different alignments

[small crest]

Me neither

You know who needs to be convinced

Not me

[ashen ledge]

Yeah I know

Hmm

[loud lake]

Overrule Curt again like last time it happened
ez

[ripe glen]

No matter which way it's sliced, hard reducing kill power is still a good way to go about it. But if this isn't good, there isn't really a better idea aside from doing a temporary cutting of it out of the game.

Ritualist is simply in the way here. I would rather Rit be removed for a time than having a role that's either completely OP or horrible.

[steady gale]

there's no way this would be horrible with no restrictions tied to it

if anything it'd probably have a glaring issue that can be buffed around

[subtle dawn]

I mean I'm just gonna be guessing everyone Coven attacks as Veteran since that's the only thing you can really be doing n1 and likely n2 as well considering Tpow usually won't reveal that day and you probably don't have a Pm/Witch. I think this role is just going to be like Poisoner with book where it only exists to fuck over Veteran. Because I don't care if anyone else if Veteran except the guy Coven attacks. Either that or just give Ritualist the book if the Coven lineup has actually useful abilities.

Because the chances you are going to be needing that charge after guessing Vet n1 and even n2 is pretty low. Because either you have lost enough coven to where you have book. Coven has already won, or Ritualist themselves has died. Very likely you will only be guesing one Tpow max a game considering most games only have one Tpow, a tpow that you might kill early anyways or have a Starspawn and then you didn't need a Ritualist to begin with. Pretty funny that the worst NP makes a Coven role redundant in most lineups

I think SS and Ritualist should be mutually exclusive if Ritualist was like this. Atleast if you have a Medusa/Enchanter the Enchanter can do something else. It isn't like having other roles that do the same thing like PM/Witch where having more is better, since having TP Invulnerability twice is just as good as having TP Invulnerability once.

[karmic granite]

This is not even remotely a bouncer

It’s completely diff

[ashen ledge]

This is such a bad take help

The Ritualist still visits when guessing so...

You're not safe to the Veteran

[ashen ledge]

Also no

They are not on the same alignment at all

They don't even work the same when it comes to how they play

[karmic granite]

Or lookout, or tracker, or technically crus but crus bad

[ashen ledge]

Right their point was ugh

[karmic granite]

Also I just hate the whole argument of "x and y are like, somewhat similar" as a point for why a rework is bad, or why something should be deleted or etc etc

[steady gale]

rit as it is right now has overlap with starspawn because it creates a kill on someone that bypasses tp

jailor has overlap with starspawn because it rejects visitors and can create a kill on someone that bypasses tp

[subtle dawn]

Wait the Ritualist visits while guessing? So you are telling me you can get killed by a ww for guessing tpow n2 in most lists. Then why am I even using my ability?

So Ritualist doesn't even counter crus on tpow in tt. Holy crap this is worse than illusionist then

[steady seal]

or we could

rework crus

[subtle dawn]

Trapper is like a ti fused with tp and crus is like a tk fused with tp. I am not a fan of changing crus unless if it's just the targeting of which roles it prioritizes in order to reduce rng

[steady seal]

crusader bouncer instead of murdering people

[subtle dawn]

I don't understand this irrational hatred for Abilities that kill visitors. This is a game of probability and if you random visit someone n1 as Wilding because you think that knowing their visits could somehow help Coven win then you risk dying to crus/vet

[lethal wharf]

We have beef then

[steady seal]

unbalanced and swingy as shit

[subtle dawn]

Most necrom holders have some immunity to crus. Cl. Hex. Necro are most common to pass book to

[steady seal]

probability shouldn’t play into an sdg game

[narrow rune]

and thats swingy

[subtle dawn]

Swing does not always equal bad

[narrow rune]

which isnt good

[steady seal]

yes it does

[narrow rune]

thats literally what swing is

ah yes 1+1=!2

[subtle dawn]

Usually if crus kills a book holder it's because Coven had multiple steps of bad rng to get there

[lethal wharf]

First off, the kill economy is stupidly inflated and crus is definitely the cause of that

[narrow rune]

AND THATS NOT GOOD

[steady seal]

or that swing is bad

blud is not cooking

[subtle dawn]

No good book holders + crus in game + Coven attack target of crus

[steady seal]

crus swing

its called green jinx for a reason

[lethal wharf]

Istg I'm going to start writing in my shit list again

[ripe glen]

The problem with this is that if Necromancer doesn't have the zombie, what does he have? He is useless if you take out the book immunity. Man exists to take book and shut up. Until Monarch, Vigi or Crusader dies. And sometimes Voodoo or Hex. It's good to have Ret not be confirmed, but there's not much else there.

[subtle dawn]

The book hogs are book hogs because their usual abilities are shit/nonexistant or they have some sort of boost to their kill. Like being Astral, basic defense, a stone gaze

Necro is a book hog because that's what it does best

There are much swingier roles than crus and if our goal is no swing=good game then we should start with them. Roles like vigilante/deputy is either two town dead or an evil dead. Ritualist and jinx is either multiple townies dead or an ousted Coven. Marshal and doom is multiple people dead all at once. If you want to stop swing we start here. Not crus. Which is just as swingy as trapper when it comes to stopping Coven attacks

[steady seal]

no

[steady gale]

this would actually make the dynamic debatably worse since it'd bounce the ritualist

[willow flax]

no argument is needed, this rework is good and that's it.

[steady gale]

crus is more swingy than vet right now

or at least on its level

[willow flax]

this thread is about ritualist

[steady gale]

sure. jinx is more swingy than crus for certain given how it works, but crus being able to kill literally any visiting role without defense in the game on any target that isn't the crus makes it not really a contest

for anything that isn't jinx or vet

[ashen ledge]

Now you're just moving goalposts girl

[subtle dawn]

Swing on its own is bad. There is risk reward and fun mechanics than coexist with some swing power. Yes Veteran can kill Cl and Medusa n1 and just win but we obviously aren't removing it.

[steady seal]

that kind of swing is bad

[subtle dawn]

Bouncer crus sounds like you go on tplo n1, bounce someone off and now that person trusts you the rest of the game

[steady seal]

unfortunately vet is built around swing

[steady seal]

same with current crus

except current crus is anti town

[subtle dawn]

Ritualist without being Astral doesn't counter what it's supposed to counter. LO crus vet ww killing and punishing Ritualist for doing their job is dumb. Why would their guesses not be astral???

[steady seal]

crus shouldnt kill

WW needs some counteraction to coven

[subtle dawn]

??? Bro. If ww mauls a revealed tpow n2 they are trying to kill town. Not help town get mega maj. If Ritualist guesses them as their role they just die to ww. Why as Rit not just take the book and hope np is starspawn since they are a better you? In lists like tt you get killed by crus for doing your job. That's crazy situationalism where you would want that. The entire game shouldn't be changed to accommodate a flawed suggestion

We already have enough Coven who can't do anything multiple days in a row. This just going to be another book hog especially if they aren't Astral or if their sacrifice debuff takes a day to go into affect. Current ritualist is already often handed book n1, now I'll be less worried about them dying from their n1 attack considering they couldn't do anything anyways

Swing because of built in game mechanics is not the same as swing because of player choices.

[loud lake]

p sure this is astral no?

[subtle dawn]

I hope it's Astral. Some people are saying it's not which makes no sense

Otherwise Lo just craps on it

They don't see reg Coven but see rit

[loud lake]

ask tuba for confirmation later
but why would this not be astral xd

[oak pecan]

Why people saying this rit isn't astral? Did I miss something on Tuba's thread?

[subtle dawn]

Can you tell me why Ritualist would be visiting and how that is better for the game than it being astral.

[ashen ledge]

If it doesn't say Astral in a rolecard it's assumed that it doesn't have Astral

[ashen ledge]

^ message above

Ritualist having the same vulnerabilities as a normal role is fine

[subtle dawn]

bro the whole ability is to counteract tplo. and it doesn't even counteract LO or crus

the point of being astral, is that you didnt want to visit that target. so if your astral attack actually has the Rit visit. Then guessing Vet, or Crus/WW targets is pretty bad

[steady seal]

how have you managed to ignore the part where i said crus needs a rework

4 different times

[ashen ledge]

I'm pretty sure it's just meant to make Coven's kills more guaranteed

[subtle dawn]

Crus shouldn't be prioritized for rework it functions much better than most of the cast

[ashen ledge]

Lookout/Tracker can't really find Ritualist easily, it's not like how they need to target the Coven's kill the same night like Medusa does
Veteran is a bad role and needs changing anyway, but even then you can guess them on a night they don't alert and walk away just fine
Crusader killing people so often is an issue with Crusader, Jinx has this same interaction and doesn't need Astral
Werewolf's Rampage is meant to kill multiple roles on a target; plus Werewolf's attack would be upgraded to Unstoppable with this rework so Werewolf objectively wants to go on the Ritualist's target

I know what the point of Astral is, but Ritualist doesn't really need it

They only had it originally because of Bodyguard/Trapper

[subtle dawn]

Lol we aren't changing vet. You are forgetting that fun is the most important aspect of the game. Current vet is worse than vigi and most changes will make vet even worse than that. If we change vigi we are changing the entire tk system. Some things are not problems and focusing on them instead of important things is a waste of resources and sometimes harmful

[ashen ledge]

Fun is subjective though

We don't balance around it

[subtle dawn]

Fun is more important than balance. Flipping a coin every game to decide who wins is balanced but not fun

Cs if the funnest new role in the game and is not remotely balanced. buffs town in most lists its in, gets hard targeted by evils. Still fun

[ashen ledge]

Games now are flipping a coin to see who wins

It's random

You often lose or win to bullshit

It's neither

And again, no

Just because someone might find a role fun doesn't mean everyone else does

[subtle dawn]

Bro idc if one guy hates Cs if 14 other people like it I get a game and we all have fun. We need to do what is funnest for the most people

[ashen ledge]

I wasn't talking about Cursed Soul

If you didn't care why did you bring it up?

💀

Moving on

[subtle dawn]

It's an example bruh

[ashen ledge]

It wasn't a good one

Either way roles don't need Astral to be viable

[steady gale]

it's like you bring up a problem that this has, then say "nah we shouldn't fix it"

why even bring vet and crus up if you don't see them as actual issues?

the problem that makes you think rit needs so desperately to be astral in the first place lies in these roles

[ashen ledge]

Right

Plus I'm pretty sure a lot of people hate Veteran

[steady gale]

even more so for crus

crus is a very unpopular role around here

[ashen ledge]

Mhm

[hot galleon]

its either you love veteran or fully despise it and theres no inbetween 😔

[ashen ledge]

😭

I'm the latter

[subtle dawn]

The problem isn't vet/crus it's Ritualist. Changing Ritualist for the best of the game over changing Crus/Vet for the best of Rit

[steady gale]

changing crus/vet would also be for the best of the game

rit shouldn't and really doesn't need astral

vet/crus have a lot of their own problems and attempting to make rit accommodate for them would also bring in its own problems

as it already kinda does somewhat

[ashen ledge]

Mhm

[lethal wharf]

Honestly I'm that one shiny pokemon of, I could give less of a shit about vet

Like yeah it needs to be fixed but I don't hold strong opinions on it

[ashen ledge]

I think most people that hate Veteran are like that

[visual mason]

"Fun is more important than balance" bro every time people say this I kill another innocent child

Because it baseless claim about balance not being fun

Which is complete fucking bullshit

And is just a fucking cop out agurement

This still makes ritualistic fun

It just removed the kill

To be guess what

More balanced

Ugh I sweat you HAVE to be baiting

You have come up with the worse takes

Also cursed soul isn't that unbalanced it just needs a list that works with it

So that's a another bullshit claim

[visual mason]

Also wrong crus is a problematic for both teams

Fucking over town and coven and with lookout getting no astral here, you can't protect important peope

Also it's a tp with alot of killing power

So like

Boo

The only correct thing you have said is that rit should be astral

[karmic granite]

what

no?

Ritualist was never to counteract tplo

[narrow rune]

it was to counter openclaimers

this guy is just pulling shit out of his arse

[unborn zealot]

With Ritualist being reworked, I do hope that is next on the Rework List.

Because DW needs the help.

[small crest]

so likely not next patch

DW looking for something to it yeah

[unborn zealot]

Curtis needs to learn not to be such a stick in the mud. :U

[vast shadow]

Anyone who visits a insane person gets dreamweaved (real)

[small crest]

I mean

I thought about

2 charges and you just make someone insane

but I hate the RNG

D:

Curts idea was good about dw only bad side is like you can promote people to dead TPOWs lol

[narrow rune]

i do have psycho bouncer

[vast shadow]

Dreamweave rampages(real)

[narrow rune]

however psycho bouncer as a concept relies on the abundance of other disruption roles existing in the same pool of spawn able roles and the ambiguity of the bounce/rb/control message itself

there is a bandage which is just give it the rb message

[ashen ledge]

Eh

Are you wanting to rework it or overhaul Dreamweaver?

[subtle dawn]

u r trying to put words in my mouth. I never said balance doesn't add to fun. i said fun is more important than balance

[subtle dawn]

If this new Ritualist is not to counter TPLO I'm not quite sure what it's purpose is.

Astral Unstoppable only matters on Town if there is someone protecting them, they are monarch with knight, they are vet on alert, or someone is attacking visitors to their house.

[narrow rune]

its to counter open claiming

because you neuter the tps trying to read coven kills by rit guessing you

[subtle dawn]

Dude, it's not to counter open claiming lol. If i am a weak role, I will full claim becuase the info gathered by town is more important than coven killing my weak role

[narrow rune]

balance is more important than fun because look how bad vanilla is doing

[subtle dawn]

this new rit is not that, it is worse SS

no tp is protecting random ass admirer #3

[narrow rune]

my guy, guaranteeing covens kill is huge

[subtle dawn]

Coven would of had their kill for sure anyways

[narrow rune]

not if tps were smart

[subtle dawn]

This is just gonna be neut hunter

Guess someone as their claim, if your wrong they are the neut

Or guess whoever coven attacks as vet, even if you arent astral atleast you kill the vet

[narrow rune]

thats a bad idea since you basically lose the full use of your ability

you can still die to tps

[subtle dawn]

you aren't going to be using your ability three times in a game 99% of games

You will die before them, good bookholders will die and you will have book before then, coven will just win before then

[maiden ridge]

@subtle dawn has leveled up! (6 ➜ 7)

[narrow rune]

so reduce the charges?

[subtle dawn]

lol nerf it even more?

new rit is already Illusionist tier

[narrow rune]

its not a nerf

bruh powercreep brainrot

'the role cant kill everyone it sees its clearly garbage'

[subtle dawn]

The rework has three charges, nerfing it because it probably won't need the charges is pretty dumb

[narrow rune]

you said it wont use the charges

so why have them

[subtle dawn]

It won't use them. But it's also weak, so why nerf it even more when its already bad

[narrow rune]

its not bad tho

[karmic granite]

HUH???????

[narrow rune]

its strong role

[loud lake]

I don't see how this is weak at all

[karmic granite]

This doesnt stop TP/LO at all?? It gives unstoppable attacks

[narrow rune]

this guy is brainrotted by powercreep

[karmic granite]

If you want anti tp/lo that is starspawn and auditor

[subtle dawn]

If most weak roles full claim I don't really want to kill them

SS meta is to go on whoever Coven would like dead most

A role being useless because another role being in the game isn't fun

[loud lake]

Unstoppable breaks through tps though, so it's anti tp but not lo

[karmic granite]

Anti TP yes

[loud lake]

except BG i think

[subtle dawn]

its not anti crus

[karmic granite]

TP/LO revloves around Lookout getting information on who is good

[loud lake]

Astral and unstoppable.

[subtle dawn]

People say this Ritualist visits when it guesses, so it dies to the crus

It also dies to WWs and Vets

[loud lake]

I really doubt that

[subtle dawn]

I hope it's not counted as a visiting role too

[loud lake]

I can't ping tuba here though bc server blocks it

ppl saying it's not on role card are stupid
It should be astral imo (or make it book-astral like HM if not, at least)

[ashen ledge]

And this is just not true mamas

Fun is important for the game as a whole so people keep playing

But it's not really part of balancing roles

There's a certain type of fun that's considered for balance, but it's better to describe it as fairness than fun

[visual mason]

same thing bro, you're straight up implying balance isn't fun

[lethal wharf]

I don't think it's fun to just get murdered for bs reasons or because I did something a little bit jank

[subtle dawn]

I never said balance wasnt fun once again. I said it's a means to an end. The end being fun, if balance gets us there that is great but we shouldn't sacrifice fun to get more balance.

[narrow rune]

balance doesnt sacrifice fun tho

[vast shadow]

I feel like more balance is correlated to more fun as the roles can be equally rewarding to play, which means more fun

[narrow rune]

it is

[vast shadow]

Less balance means less fun because playing the role that’s weaker would not be fun

[steady gale]

are we adamantly implying that this wouldn't be fun to play because it doesn't kill on its own or something?

[vast shadow]

Less fun could mean more or less balance

[steady gale]

I think a less balanced game makes for an overall less fun and less fair game

like strong roles are fun, but if you want to play that then all of your roles should be equally strong

having weak roles mixed in with the strong just makes rolling the weak roles feel unfair

[vast shadow]

Yeah

[steady gale]

like you got cheated out of a win because you didn't get a stronger comp

the same applies to playing against overly strong roles

[vast shadow]

Balancing should increase fun

[narrow rune]

it does

[vast shadow]

Increasing fun could go both ways

In practice, it’s better to change roles around balance

Relative to the balance of all other roles

And the interactions between all such roles

[steady seal]

they arent

[subtle dawn]

Stop misconstruing what I am trying to say. I would like Ritualist to be changed but I don't like this change.

[steady seal]

they repeated what you said

[subtle dawn]

You are missevaluating what I said like you missevaluate how strong Hex Master is

[steady seal]

im taking what you say at face value

Hm is good in a slow game

[steady seal]

.

[steady gale]

well, your primary argument is that fun should be put over balance

[steady seal]

without balance fun crumbles

[steady gale]

which, taken at face value, implies that you don't like this because it's less fun

which may be true, but that's kinda gonna happen when you nerf a role

people like playing with power after all

the second part was mainly an assumption based on how this rework handles rit

if you want it changed in a different way then you most likely want it to still be able to independently kill

[narrow rune]

nothings wrong with wanting it to independently kill but that doesnt make this rework bad

[steady gale]

although, actually

[ripe glen]

"People like playing with power" gets you non unique Deputy, pre-nerf Seer, PM/Rit, and exec.

[steady gale]

with the removal of the handicaps that are still on the post, wouldn't this be debatably more fun than current rit?

since you get to act every night and can basically always be doing something

[ripe glen]

It would be better because it would actually allow Town to be nerfed, and Conj/Jinx mutually exclusive.

But yeah itd be fun to actually play instead of wait for TPOW

[steady gale]

especially with book passing for when you burn your charges

[steady gale]

ya

again, hopefully conj and jinx don't both go completely without changes

I get the dynamic people want, I just don't agree with it

[ripe glen]

If you want a full Jinx rework, by all means, but if Jinx will be as-is, or slightly changed, then mutually exclusive with Conjurer is perfection

[steady gale]

that being "conj is kidnapper and jinx is ambusher"

[ripe glen]

yea

[steady gale]

when both of those roles SUCK

!!!

[ripe glen]

I mean, whatever changes you want. Arguably the best end state is for CK to be dissolved

[steady gale]

ya

I dunno, I'm just kinda at the point where I feel the need to get that take out there every time it's brought up

[ripe glen]

Yeah, but my main priority here at least is the fact that Town being OP and ritualist being extremely swingy dependent on hardconfirms and TPOWs are the two major blockades to CK being removed.

It's just not possible until Town and Coven are nerfed back to TOS1 in the kill power department

[steady gale]

hopefully with some of the jailor's abundant fruit distributed to the roles that need it

[steady gale]

1. why cant this kill TI

[mint fiber]

1. it doesn't kill

[narrow rune]

pretty sure that csnt guess ti bit is outdated

[steady gale]

2. Why is this still classified as CK

[mint fiber]

because it helps getting kills

[narrow rune]

cks likely getting dissolved

so yeah also outdated

[steady gale]

thank god

[narrow rune]

i still want it to stay with some major shanking but removing it is a good plan

[small crest]

i confirmed this is utility

[steady gale]

the post just hasn't been updated

this should likely be able to guess ti

[loud lake]

Can you please confirm if this is astral or not?
there's too much variety of opinions around this rn from what i can tell
we need confirmation that this would also bypass crus and lo
people's been saying it isn't, and some people say it is.

[small crest]

Attacks against a sacrificed player do bypass it

Rit guessing someone being astral , i think it shouldn't

[loud lake]

ok noted, people think this should though, i could be wrong but they're saying this is supposed to be anti lo, and if it isn't astral then it wouldn't be?
or somethin i'm not a part of this thread much

[small crest]

personally either works for me.

[steady gale]

I think this would be fine not being astral

I think it would be nice if astral visits were specific to certain things

there's really nothing about rit that would be problematic with it not being astral

[small crest]

i want to add this rework but

town also needs to be toned down

at the same time

[loud lake]

the whole point of this rit making bookholder astral is avoid lo crus and trappers no?
but it's pointless if bookholder doesn't die to crus but this does bc it visits
or gets seen by lo
so i think in this rework in particular it might be needed

[steady gale]

ya

crus absolutely needs a rework, to start with

[steady gale]

if you get caught out by lookout you're far from screwed

since the visit is completely passive

even the target dying the next night wouldn't necessarily put scrutiny on you

[loud lake]

I thought you had to visit the person the night they get attacked
or is Sacrificed perma debuff

[small crest]

remember the dep rework idea

that was showed on a modtalk

it was somewhere on a summary

ignore the cinematic stuff

this could be a crus rework

another approach is

crusader rbs everyone that visits their target(crus would become rb immune)

[steady gale]

I think I would rather have the second approach, since I kinda want crus to be reworked to not be offensive anymore

the rework proposal would still keep a bit of the swing it has of being a visit dependent killer

that would still counter rit, but I think that as long as you don't let it chain target it should be fine

[steady seal]

so town starspawn

[loud lake]

sounds like it

[steady gale]

and then we normalize the disruption message

[small crest]

its a regular rb

but yeah

starspawn is a super rb

[steady gale]

oh, so it won't stop poisoner?

[small crest]

crusader super rbing would be

really really odd

[steady gale]

wouldn't that have a lot of the same problems that tav has?

where the rb immunity just kinda screws it over

[small crest]

i dont think a town role should super rb i agree

about the bounce

tho

[steady gale]

then again maybe more roles can be reworked

[small crest]

you want starspawn and other bounces to be

not distinguisable

like jail

im fine with that but a town role having super rb is what im not fine with

other than jailor

[steady gale]

jailor super rb removal when

[small crest]

doubt that will happen but i can clearly see

the bounce thing

would make starspawn less loud too

[steady gale]

ya

[steady seal]

ss claiming crus meta

[small crest]

hey

[small crest]

at least

its not because of

tos1 inv results

[steady seal]

"you claim crus your SS"

[small crest]

you claim sheriff you are ww

[steady seal]

"you're crus claim and daybreak happened, hang him"

[steady gale]

then you realize how much you limit yourself

[small crest]

i mean its going to happen

and

jailor is another thing

ideally would be the bounce message instead of "your target was jailed"

[steady seal]

"something prevented you from visiting your target, you were bounced!"

[small crest]

like you can fake claim a lot of roles. its much more open than tos1

[steady gale]

ya

[small crest]

ppl shit on vet not being unique but i like ret and vet not being unique for this reason

[steady gale]

ss faking crus would be a debatably worse play than pois faking tav

[small crest]

both of them were not fake claimable

in tos1

get cced and die

[steady gale]

but crus being a role counter to ss would still be good for making otherwise "confirmed" crusaders less trustworthy, just like pois does with tav now

[small crest]

yeah and starspawn wouldnt be as loud unless daybreak

"judge game"

pretty much

if we went to this world

ideally evils would still know they were starbound but immune

because of how ss works

still room for ss to find their allies

[steady gale]

maybe I should post my tav buff here and rephrase it as a general rb buff

[loud lake]

general bounce message sounds good.
also would give a way for evils to fake jailor to some extent if they find SS or have tt crus (with the bounce rework)

[pine heath]

Players who see Starspawn are usually good about announcing it

Whenever I starbound a player they say that it happened

I found a Plaguebearer because I starbound only them and they claimed starbound

they then proceeded to be confused when I knew their role

(I have too much BS saved on my phone and can’t find the image)

[steady seal]

don’t worry, we all have a collective hivemind to claim starbinded

[subtle dawn]

I think that Ritualist's guess should be astral. We are trying to nerf Ritualist not Butcher it. We all saw what happened to Wildling when it got butchered instead of nerfed, now it's hardly worth visiting at all as Wildling. -- Ritualist guessing TI is bad because we shouldn't encourage TI not to post or punish them for playing properly. Ritualist visiting is bad because it makes it's ability much worse when its likely to do very little anyways. Pre-Rework Ritualist was Astral and it's menu is just like Oracle/Doom/CL morph, which are all astral abilities. (atleast I assume CL doesn't visit who they morph)

[steady seal]

what

this isn’t gonna butcher rit

wildling is still a good role

and rits gonna still be above average

[subtle dawn]

blud wildling is garbo lol

currently

After the slew of nerfs it won't be as bad compared to the others

Wildling would be much better if you weren't punished for using your ability

[ripe glen]

The "slew of nerfs" are to globally reduce kill power and increase the social aspect of the game. Way too many people have dopamine brainrot kill kill kill.

[subtle dawn]

Wildling Running into a trapper is game ruining, wildling running into a attack is death for Coven's team

Astral Wildling would be better, LO shouldn't have it but Wildling should

[subtle dawn]

Yeah the nerfs are needed the entire game was decided by whether or not coven had like 4 roles or not

if they didn't have any of those roles they were pretty screwed barring shenanigans

[subtle dawn]

Wildling can't claim LO themself, and people can tell if you are whispering your LO results to a teammate. If you are claiming LO yourself you are rolling the dice on there being a Trapper, Invest or LO to bust you. And hope RT TP isn't crus that snipes you or that the TPow CC was actually Veteran or that RN isn't WW who kills you n2, or you could say you don't want to go on the obvious target n2 and then get sussed for not doing what your supposed to. Also if there is a SS or Auditor your ability becomes whisper simulator 9000. And if you are claiming LO or Tracker, see someone claim Tpow in whispers and kill them. Everyone can tell that your wildling who read those whispers.

[steady seal]

first argument is shat on by wildling cannot be seen by LO

[subtle dawn]

Thats not true lol

The rolecard is wrong

[steady seal]

invest is w/e

[steady seal]

modded states wildling cannot be detected,
and will not detect other LO

its not basegame

[subtle dawn]

The rolecard is wrong

[steady seal]

mind you

did you read

[subtle dawn]

the rolecard is incorrect, you get seen

[steady seal]

make a bug report for it then

im confident modded changes wildling and LO interactions

[subtle dawn]

Wildling still bad for all those others reasons I stated

I just make them book hog when I can

or I stay home when I'm wildling and we have a better book hog

[steady seal]

wildling can out lots of TPs in one night

wildling can detect NK

its by no means above average, still better than dw

[subtle dawn]

If Wildling was Astral without Book, it would function much better.

I think Wildling should be astral until they are handed book. Because even if we made LO unable to see Wildling then that would mean I'm sending a bookholder Wildilng into TPLO

[ripe glen]

I actually don't think this is that bad to let wildling choose to visit or not but this is irrelevant to rit

[lethal wharf]

The yeeter try not to have bad takes challenge failed once again

[steady gale]

this not being astral wouldn't be that big of a deal

it'd be better for the game

the only thing I can really see is that the coven would still struggle to deal with confirmed veterans

[lethal wharf]

Also I really don't get why you want it to be astral so bad, so what it can be found by lo/trackers or shot by veteran, that's their job, and your just arbitrarly nerfing those because" oh no it can die to veteran, whatever will we doooooo"

[steady gale]

and there are a LOT of problems in that sentence disincluding rit

[steady gale]

this getting caught by a lookout/tracker would be about as bad as something like a pm getting caught by a lookout/tracker

it's a completely silent visit

[lethal wharf]

Thankfully a majority of people seem to prefer CK getting abolished so thank god

And majority wants this rework added

41-5, nice

[oak pecan]

CK is a nonsensical alignment

I'd still prefer if the book is the only source of coven's kpn

[lethal wharf]

That's the goal

[ripe glen]

Town has to be nerfed at the same time so Coven doesn't fall apart but yea

[lethal wharf]

The first part of nerfing town is nerfing the top dog

J a i l o r

And then overall nerfing the kpn for town

Which would be making no tps/only bg capable of killing, nerfing vigi and vet, and reworking deputy

[steady gale]

• conj, according to a lot of people for some reason

and then comes someone with the obligatory "conj is fine"

[lethal wharf]

Conj is a good example of what an extra kill for coven should be, if town has the 1kpn of trials, and also have TK and marshall, coven can have conj

It also works at keeping high priority targets in hiding

[steady gale]

a single, completely uncounterable, 0 interaction click-to-kill ability on a 1 trick pony role?

that can completely destroy the game of an nk of your choosing because why not?

[lethal wharf]

I mean I kinda want it to be basic attack

[steady gale]

and then for the cutscene to not play on hitting defense, right?

[lethal wharf]

Yeah

[steady gale]

because otherwise you just kinda get the same thing but directly better for the coven

[lethal wharf]

Thankfully deathnotes are disabled

[steady gale]

I think that it could probably stay powerful, but just fail on hitting nks and pariahs

[lethal wharf]

So coven gets to mald as they try to kill the nk

[steady gale]

just because monarch and nes

[lethal wharf]

I do agree that conj should do something else minor but it's mostly fine

[oak pecan]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of conjurer. I just said conjurer is needed to balance the power creep of town

If dev could balance the town, we don't conjurer anymore

[lethal wharf]

I like an evil role that can put the fear of God into TPows though

[steady gale]

I think the whole idea of scrapping the ck slot is considering that town is completely rebalanced

[lethal wharf]

Tbf conj would go into CPow

[steady gale]

I actually had an idea that someone really didn't like that I shared here before

[oak pecan]

Conj is like a fear factor for tpow to prevent them being cocky.

I like it

[steady gale]

where the conj starts with 0 charges of conjure, and gains their meteor when the book holder fails to kill for any reason

so the coven is forced to sac a night kill for it