ButteRyBalance

[jagged nexus]

Also Dine: Crashes from everything

Lmao

[daring oar]

i wouldnt even be mad if it was consistent and i could even explain what is happening

[jagged nexus]

Yeah I get ya

[dry current]

with imperium?

[daring oar]

yes

i relaunched and landed again and it was fine

very nice and kind

also

[daring oar]

well the consolidate option looks to be working okay

and the merge option

i handled this entire ordeal in a very slapdash way and im not convinced it wont change in like, v0.3.1 or v0.3.2 but right now i just want it to be functional

the body parts are still so small in value compared to the other scrap items that adding them to dine's existing scrap pool just makes its profits terrible

and the consolidate option has a bug where the terminal shows the wrong numbers on scan

because i just double the value of all scrap right before generation, and then half it again afterwards

and the terminal isn't reflecting that double value

i think ideally, i would want to add some options to make the value of the body parts more in line with other scrap items so they can fit in a normal moon's loot table without much issue

and then probably change the whole "scrap preset" system to let you toggle on/off normal items, on/off body parts, adjust total counts, etc.

dine's changes are just generally so divisive i think it needs a lot more care and customization per user

[dry current]

that's great stuff

[daring oar]

anyways v73 dine haters rejoice because you can also just completely turn the new shit off if you want

but im sure everybody here loves the new lethal company v73 "Handy Update" and wouldnt choose to do that

[dry current]

this is true

[daring oar]

i think im just gonna send it off into the world

sorry that it is completely untested this time

but i will be right here if it is still broken and needs to be fixed again

[daring oar]

well, untested in multiplayer

actually now that i think about it there's a particular change im not happy with

so i want to address that first

[raven patrol]

I have not seen too much hate for it, the moon was not anyone’s favorite to begin with anyway

[wind spoke]

an inbetween while still keeping the low cost gimmick could be that the old dine scrap spawns in very rarely alongside the new scrap and lower the total amount depending on how much is body parts compared to non

[daring oar]

yep give it to me

[raven patrol]

Zeekerss…

[wind spoke]

everyone remember to thank zeekerss

[raven patrol]

His methods are simply beyond our comprehension

[daring oar]

anyways okay sorry about the fakeout

i think im actually ready to post this now

v0.3.0

• Updated for v73
• Added a setting to remove spike traps from spawning beside entrances
• Added settings to restore snowmen on Rend, Dine, and Titan
• Added several new scrap "presets" to Dine:
  • DontChange: Vanilla (or other mods) take priority
  • Rollback: Same as the "Buff Scrap" option from v0.2.4
  • AddV73: v72's spawn pool plus the new v73 items
  • Consolidate: v73's spawn pool, but half as many items spawn worth double value each

i am beginning to feel a little bit of the chameleon syndrome with this mod where the internals are so ugly and terrible im gonna have to rewrite them soon if i want to keep adding more to this

[wind spoke]

I think you might have to bite the bullet for both

[daring oar]

my biggest frustration with the changes i have made so far is that most of the settings can't be changed properly without fully rebooting the game

and i think i'd like to rewrite this mod so that it applies changes on a day-by-day basis and then rolls back to vanilla values

to bring back my original vision for the mod which was "the host can change everything for every player on the fly"

[wind spoke]

the snowmen being added back is very nice I will say

[daring oar]

yes

[daring oar]

the snowmen are what i was referring to here

i had it set to swap between the christmas spawn rates and "normal" spawn rates depending on if you were playing in December

but with the "normal" spawn rates, then snowmen wont spawn on like... 49 out of 50 days

they are extremely rare

so i changed the settings to let you switch to the jolly patch rates

i still think it's weird that he removed the snowmen immediately after adding the ability to crush them with the cruiser

[wind spoke]

yeah

[raven patrol]

Lunar Config lets us edit the spawn curves of outside map objects, so if there is compatibility we can do it there

[unreal ginkgo]

THE SNOWMEN THGIN IS PEAK

I'VE MISSED THEM

[dark hull]

oh, are you changing the selectable level's game object?

[dark hull]

you could keep the original SelectableLevel for the moon saved in an static variable and swap them when the config changes, i think that would require the least amount of rewriting for you

Idk how lunar config works yet but im 100% sure thats possible with LethalConfig at least due to it triggering an event on config change

or apply the patches on config change as well

[dense flicker]

Thankfully I never go to dine

[raven patrol]

Just gonna let the Giants starve you monster

[unreal ginkgo]

Forest keepers perform a process similar to photosynthesis

They're fine lmao

[raven patrol]

Ah yes, using Dine’s abundant sunlight

[shut torrent]

New ButteRyBalance update

Absolute cinema

[daring oar]

you know guys

honestly dine's average profits aren't bad if you mash together v72 and v73's loot pools

and then just add a bunch of extra items

right now the AddV73 setting I have in the game brought back the v72 loot counts (22-25)

and so the profits are probably pretty abysmal compared to rend (which is 18-25 items, but without any of the giblets)

[daring oar]

but with 28-44 items instead...
dine floats around $1,452 (rend floats around $1,258)

[daring oar]

could be "the best of many worlds":

• dine's total value is "competitive with rend" again (opposed to "astronomically better than artifice")
• dine's loot isn't such a huge departure from the rest of the game's levels, but is still notably different and worth the price of admission
• still feels like v73 dine where you're working harder to earn your profits (more items to deliver than other moons)
• subtlety (you won't find 20 organs inside a single cupboard anymore)

i might do a quick update to push an AddV73Extra option like this because I think it'd be genuinely pretty neat (the current AddV73 option is just straight up terrible... it was more of a curiosity than anything)

(i just did some quick math, but without those extra items, dine is apparently floating around ~$947)

[raven patrol]

I personally would have Dine more around $1600, the moon is a huge difficulty jump from Rend even with your adjustments, and you need a good crew to get all the items out. I am not sure how close this is to Titan’s profit, but Titan plays differently (and is easier than Dine imo) so it is not a big deal

I kinda like the idea of Dine being as/more profitable than Titan if you are cracked at the game. Makes for the dynamic of Rend being the safe bet, Dine being for sweats, and Titan being the rng haven/mid-tier skill moon

[crude pier]

I love dine's map design so much

I wish more of the maps were like it

[austere dew]

Nobody tell this man about Chronos

-# free advertisement, skelaah paid me 0.00$ to mention it everytime possible

[dark hull]

idk if its just me but titan is the sweat mid tier moon

it isnt that hard to play unless you get same side mineshaft but thats a problem on every moon

[dense flicker]

Titan is best moon

[raven patrol]

I would agree with that, but I also believe it to be the most swingy (seed dependent) along with March, though nobody cares about March (besides Q1 speedrunners I guess)

[raven patrol]

For anyone interested, MikuOero is making another general rebalance mod, focused more on catering to high-quota than this mod. I think it makes for a good companion mod since it offers alternative approaches to a few things and touches areas this mod does not

https://discord.com/channels/1168655651455639582/1425734688453951529

[thin comet]

It's a good mod but removes a lot of mechanics from the vanilla game. The changes I liked: masked wear mask items instead of a mesh mask. Another change I liked was that masks, knives, eggs, and bees count toward the total value at the end of the day.

[raven patrol]

You can selectively disable the patches in a config once it fully comes out

[shut torrent]

Any new juicy balance changes planned down the line?

Stuff like changes to items, enemies, moons, infestations etc?

[naive mesa]

Maneater max cap set to 15, and +100 weight on all moons.

Alongside a feature where you can juggle baby maneaters to take care of them like that cooking mini game from deltarune.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1268371157317455882/1275597728566480896/hell_yeah.gif

[thin comet]

https://tenor.com/view/saiki-nendo-anime-shock-funny-gif-861440329934386347

[daring oar]

i do have some more plans but for the most part i am pretty happy with what is available

id like to add the ghost girl breaker box feature especially

[daring oar]

i will say there is a decent likelihood this mod never goes 1.0

[thin comet]

Its already pretty good

[daring oar]

one of the reasons it is 0.x is because the code is kind of based on my gross private mod template i used to rebalance moons for my friends' games

which was never really designed to be super customizable or work with other mods

for a "1.0 release" i would want to make some serious backend changes

it is kind of a miracle some of the features even play nice with LLL or other config mods really

[raven patrol]

Do you want us to think your mods are bad?

Give yourself a little credit

[daring oar]

well, im just being honest about how things are under the hood

most of the stuff i make is pretty disastrously implemented

as long as it works and has the effect i want, then that's some points. but it's still objectively true that the way ive implemented all of these configs into weird checkboxes that interact strangely with other config mods is "unideal"

that's kind of why the moon kill switch exists, for example... so you can just completely kill switch the moon changes and make manual adjustments yourself with other mods

without compatibility being a headache

even for my own personal use cases, it's sometimes a bit rough

like, if im playing a bunch of sessions with my friends on vow and thinking "i kinda want to have less factories" then id have to push an entire mod update so that we can all have the same synchronized factory chance

unless we switch to using one of the several moon value config mods, many of which are in "dubiously supported state" right now

recently i've heard things about "lunarconfig" and im assuming that is probably the best choice right now? but it also requires like 5 dependencies nothing else in the profile needs so it's a hard sell for me

[runic cobalt]

eventually it should need just one dependency but yeah currently it does use all those due to soft dependency complication being weird to figure out

[raven patrol]

Lunar is good, it just needs all those dependencies because it is a very powerful mod that needs access to a lot of the game

There also is how CR Lib is in the middle of being replaced by Dawn Lib, and how LethalLib has all those questionable Mono Patcher dependencies

Definitely in a bit of a transition period

[runic cobalt]

yeah by one dependency i did mean dawnlib, if it transitions to that it can throw the other mods out i believe

[raven patrol]

Epic

[dry current]

i think they fucking suuuck and buttery should quit!!!!

[dry current]

thought that was so I didn't have to go thru each moon and disable their changes manually lol

[dry current]

for this specific issue couldn't you just go into LLL and reduce the factory chance on vow

[raven patrol]

That is true, though many mods may alter the vanilla code even if they do not “change” anything. Not running any patches at all ensures there are no unintended effects

[daring oar]

my profile doesnt even use LLL because we dont use any custom content

which i know isn't true for like

[dry current]

oh that makes sense

fsr I thought you'd use like, at least RBM

[daring oar]

99% of profiles but it is a big factor for me making this mod

[dry current]

im telling dopa oooo im telling on you

[dry current]

makes sense yea

[daring oar]

if im being real the only reason this mod has moon changes at all is because i wanted a way to enforce custom interior chances for all the moons

without having to send my friends a private mod and constantly updating that

so i just have BRB sync with host's config and i can push an update if needed

but even now i am realizing that is kind of a headache lol

[daring oar]

the other stuff is stuff i could do with a host side mod but i included them in this one since it's sort of intended to be an "all in one package" for tweaking the game

it'd be a bit silly if it was just interior changes and then you need the separate private mod i dont release anywhere for the rest of the changes

[thin comet]

Failed to find the call to begin dungeon generation in RoundManager One of LunarConfig dependencies are making cullfactory log this error

[crude pier]

Lunar config seemed nice, but having to install LLL is really annoying so it was a hard pass for me

[analog cypress]

ButteryBalance overrides LLL?

[daring oar]

i am under the impression my interior chance settings dont work right with LLL

because revisitstingers doesnt reflect on LLL's assignments properly

for other stuff it's going to depend

how you have it set up

what are you interested in specifically

[thin comet]

Revisitstingers is working here

i play with 100%

entrance, fire exit and inverse teleporter

[analog cypress]

I'm planning to add ImmersiveScrap to my modpack to add a bit of variety, but i'm afraid that will mess with enemy spawn chance and scrap adjusments

[daring oar]

well, it's not that the mod doesnt work, it's that it apparently reads from the wrong values (implying LLL calculates which interior to generate some other way than vanilla)

so like, if a vanilla moon has a manor at 5% and you have stinger chance set to 6% max

if you make manor 100% on that moon with LLL it'll still play the stinger because the vanilla chance is <6%

[unreal ginkgo]

Are you interested in adding solo compensation for the sapsucker?

Just making it sleep a little bit longer would be enough

[daring oar]

sorry i forgot to reply lol

just adding new enemies and scrap via LLL would probably work fine

i only mess with the values for vanilla stuff

[daring oar]

anyways not really

i dont have any strong feelings about the sapsucker and dont feel the need to change it

[balmy pier]

@daring oar hi so

i just learned that the maneater has a stupid thing about it

if everyone that it "likes" dies

it still wont like other players

so i think you should add a setting to make it like players if everyone it previously liked is dead

[feral shard]

That'd be cool to have

[thin comet]

Last Stand moment

[shut torrent]

This clip is the best representation of why I always disable last stand

I could use words to explain why, but this clip perfectly incapsilates the reason

[thin comet]

Is it possible to add random rocks for Embrion? Like the RMB scene?

[daring oar]

embrion already has random rocks assigned

but they cant spawn because the vanilla rocks dont support spawning on other "rock" tagged floors

and embrion's entire surface is tagged as rock

dopadream replaced the rocks completely with a custom variant in rbm

with a different texture, and that supports spawning on rock

i could maybe implement something sort of similar, but it would basically just be a completely plagiarized concept

and if you want changes from her mod you should probably just use her mod

Lol

[thin comet]

ah, thx for explain.

[thin comet]

Barber infestation will still work even if I disable barber dynamic spawn?

[daring oar]

yes

i believe, anyway

[thin comet]

Barbers jump at the same time and they will intended to spawn in pair and with butteryfixes nutcracker inspect at the same time.
So I thought it would make sense they spawn in pair too.
What do you think?

[thin comet]

Experimentation:300,Assurance:300,Vow:50,Adamance:300,Rend:5,Dine:7,Offense:150,Titan:300,Artifice:94,Liquidation:118,Embrion:17


ID 1

Experimentation:1,Assurance:3,Vow:3,Adamance:13,Rend:300,Dine:300,Offense:4,Titan:75,Artifice:300,Liquidation:300,Embrion:4

iD 4

Experimentation:3,Assurance:40,Vow:300,Adamance:135,Rend:14,Dine:140,Offense:300,Titan:69,Artifice:213,Embrion:44``` Butterybalance weights if you are using LLL

[raven patrol]

Hey, would it be possible for something akin to TonightWeDine be added to this mod (move Dine’s entrances to be akin to their v49 positions)? Terra’s mod still works, but his entire portfolio is deprecated and he seems to have left the community, so I would appreciate this as a way to future-proof it. I know you like v49 Dine so hopefully you can understand my concern

[daring oar]

if it ever breaks or becomes untenable for some reason

i will reimplement it

[raven patrol]

Sounds good

[jagged nexus]

What is this even for?

[runic cobalt]

Interior weights on moons

[jagged nexus]

Ah, I got so used to how LunarConfig handles it this looked foreign to me, idk what they mean by ID 0, ID 1, and ID 4 though

[runic cobalt]

Those are the vanilla interiors

[balmy pier]

isnt it actually broken though

or am i wrong

[daring oar]

wdym broken

we have been using it in v73

[balmy pier]

i heard before it was

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[daring oar]

afaik none of terra's stuff is broken

but ANN is correct

he left this server, zeekcord, and deprecated his entire catalog

so i assume none of them will receive support going forward

tonight we dine literally just rolled back entrance spawns so i can rewrite this feature if needbe

using the original decomps for coordinates

[daring oar]

it's a shame because i liked his scrap mod

[summer elm]

agreed. i wish it couldve been handed off to someone else before terra left

[raven patrol]

I bet someone will fork it if it breaks, I know that mod has a following

[raven patrol]

It works for me during solo testing, but I suppose something could still go wrong in a group session

It seems all his mods are simple enough that they survived the v73 apocalypse

Zeekerss does seem to be planning some backend overhauls in the coming updates though so we shall see how much longer they last

[summer elm]

its open source, on git, and could just msg terra for the files..

[daring oar]

still works in multiplayer v73

[signal stream]

Source?

[naive mesa]

his patreon

[signal stream]

Which

[raven patrol]

The November 13, December 6, and January 14 Patreon posts all mention backend changes like rendering engine, control inputs, and enemy AI. It also has been discussed in the Zeekord that he is aware of the v73 bugs with host disconnections and scrolling

February 6 post is not public yet but from what I have heard it continues the trend

[naive mesa]

https://tenor.com/view/wizard-cat-wizard-cat-by-demonwolf-mage-cat-magic-cat-gif-2835561615176791073

witch

[pure cedar]

hi

[signal stream]

those aren't really backend overhauls but i understand the confusion

[thin comet]

Which values did you put into Foggy Nerf? WeatherInjection is overriding it.

[daring oar]

i think for nerf foggy weather i just force a minimum distance of 7

some vanilla moons go as low as 4

[daring oar]

i forget if i ever posted about this before but titan used to be way less foggy in v9, and this is a mockup of what that looks like in v73

i guess zeekerss thought it looked kind of ugly with the camera clip plane or something

but i've always really liked the "vast wasteland" aesthetic of this version of titan

the effect is kinda lost when you can't see anything

personally i think titan would be more fun with a greater number of outdoor spawns

and improved visibility like this

[runic cobalt]

It's so small on the outside and you want more outside spawns?

[daring oar]

well

think of it like the world's worst game of frogger

anyways yeah i think having more visibility would make the existing power level (which is only like, 7?) way too easy to deal with

with a couple extra spawns and better visibility i think it'd be fun trying to look for openings to move in and out of the ship and danger would exist beyond "oh i died because i dropped down into a dog's mouth which i couldn't see"

[raven patrol]

It’s bigger than it looks, more spans would encourage more frequent use of the second staircase by Fire

[raven patrol]

This looks like hardly any fog at all. I think just a little would be ideal

We do still have Foggy weather on Titan to keep the current look of it too

[daring oar]

this is fog distance of 70

same distance used by experimentation, assurance, offense, etc.

all evidence seems to point to zeekerss having used one of those moons as a basis for titan's scene

possibly offense (since offense was created between dine and titan)

anyways in the full release of the game titan uses a distance of 5

for comparison sake

[raven patrol]

I don’t even see the fog

Maybe like 50 would be good

[thin comet]

Do you intend to add new buffs for other enemies? Like Last Stand for Nutcrackers. It would be cool to have an option to remove Coilhead recharge to be like in the old versions.

Without removing the recharging when they are stunned.

[naive mesa]

isnt last stand just so you cant infinitely farm shotguns?

[thin comet]

Yes, its a buff

[daring oar]

not exactly because i dont think there are any enemies that deserve buffs

if anything i think several of them are kind of unfair in their vanilla state

it's the reason why i made adjustments like limiting maneater turn speed

or removing jester blocking

nutcrackers are free money generators after you kill the first one and while last stand isn't intended to block "infinitely farming shotguns"

i hope it at least makes it a bit more exciting

since you either need to bring a second weapon to weaken it before you go for the kill

or you need to have a plan for dealing with its aggro from the shotgun blast

i could probably remove the coilhead recharge if you really wanted me to

but personally i cant stand coilheads so i wouldn't be making that change for myself

i dont think it's that hard to provide a setting for it though

[thin comet]

thx a lot

[daring oar]

@thin comet yeah this was really easy

while im at it im probably also gonna revert the footsteps change in v70

[thin comet]

thx

[daring oar]

TL;DR with coilhead footsteps is:

1. they wander at 6.0 speed
2. they chase at 14.5 speed
3. their animation speed is untethered from their actual movement speed, and set by a separate calculation
4. before v70, their "walk animation speed" was 2.5, and their "chase animation speed" was 6.0

• doing the math - 6.0/14.5 is ~0.41x, and 0.41 * 6.0 = ~2.48. so the proportion is basically perfect

5. after v70, zeekerss increased their "walk animation speed" to 4.7, and changed absolutely nothing else

• now they step twice as fast to cover the same distance, but only when they're not chasing players???
• also it's basically impossible to use audio to tell when they're chasing vs. wandering

imo this change just really doesn't make any sense and it makes them less readable so i think it's bad

I've never cared enough to fix it until now but if i'm messing with coilheads anyway, seems like a good opportunity to squeeze this in too

[raven patrol]

Yes please do finally address that

I have been #1 v70 Coil Head animation speed hater

[daring oar]

v0.3.2

• you need scf for infestation rework to work now go try it (you can disable the settings if you dont like them though)
• added thumper infestations sorry it took so long alex
  • more infestations coming soon... i hope
• tweaked dine's consolidate setting a bit to have less maximum value but also a little less tedious
• cruiser instakill forest giants setting
  • cruiser durability rework soon... i hope
• "Coil" "Heads"
  • added a disable recharge setting for leubes which i will NEVER EVER USE!!!
  • "fixed" their walk animation speed so it's more consistent and clearly defined

[civic parrot]

Dang all the mods in my modpack updated.

[raven patrol]

Yay!

[daring oar]

@unreal ginkgo @balmy pier i think it was the two of you that asked for it before

honestly i was getting really pissed off at a hoarding bug last time i was playing the game

because of the endless aggro cycle from proximity

[balmy pier]

i mean

[daring oar]

so i guess i actually will introduce something to reset their "annoyance timer"

probably just whenever they aggro

it will go to 0

so it won't endlessly calm down while flying into you, then immediately re-aggro

[balmy pier]

the thing is
it does make sense for them to become angry from not respecting their personal space

...at the same time

the timer not reducing back is just

ourgh

and really its only an issue for the case of them wanting to pick up maneaters

if they want to do that, theres only a few ways to make them stop

[unreal ginkgo]

Your explanation for them being territorial animals was valid, but we still personally just do not find the mechanic fun in a gameplay sense. Lethal Company isn't Rain World where it can just get away with being bullshit due to the generous save points the game provides to you

[balmy pier]

and if you pick it up in front of them instead

[daring oar]

yeah i just hadn't ever really encountered the situation where it was a problem

[balmy pier]

you just get fucked

[daring oar]

and it made sense with their lore

so i just never cared before

but now i have seen how irritating it is

i finally understand why it's a problem

lol

[balmy pier]

its the same reason dogs resetting their search routine is annoying

sure, it makes sense from a realistic standpoint

but i fucking hate dealing with it

[unreal ginkgo]

What happens with this ?

[balmy pier]

they do it after finishing investigating a noise

always

while you can use this advantageously

most of the time, its not beneficial

it just makes them stay where you need to walk often

but it does make realistic sense why they do that

[unreal ginkgo]

No, like

what do they do in this state?

[daring oar]

i understand this is an annoyance in a specific circumstance but also i think it's pretty easy to just move away from the dogs and lure them somewhere else

and fixing this might also be kind of annoying im not sure exactly how zeekerss has his code setu p

[balmy pier]

they just
do the AI search routine

thats it

[unreal ginkgo]

...?

Okay

[balmy pier]

ok i guess you didnt know, i thought you did

[unreal ginkgo]

Seems like a fair universal threat for most entities, besides forest keepers deliberately wandering away from the ship

[balmy pier]

so its what every monster uses to just randomly pathfind on navmesh

they choose an AI node to check off
every monster has a different distance they must get to for the AI node to be marked as searched
then a separate radius bubble they have spawns and additionally checks off every other AI node within it

9 times out of 10, monsters will follow a back-and-forth search path

it is insanely predictable and most easily noticable with thumpers and forest giants

when AI nodes are checked, monsters will never select them as one they can pathfind to, unless the search routine is reset from them checking off every single one

but the eyeless dog has a unique function where the entire routine is reset after it investigates a sound it heard

so if you make a noise sprinting and it hears it, lets say in front of the ladder at assurance

but its search routine wanted it to go towards main entrance

after its done investigating, every AI node it has checked gets unchecked

[unreal ginkgo]

This is annoying, yeah, but the point of Lethal Company is in general to be an inconvenience simulator

This isn't a hoarding bug situation where it's almost a death sentence if you have no shovel, I'd say

[balmy pier]

well this is a more subjective annoyance

[unreal ginkgo]

You can also just use the jump exploit to hop away from said dog, so

[balmy pier]

and i was just explaining what the search routine is

i dont know how anyone would find the hoarding bug thing not annoying, especially if it wants a maneater

[unreal ginkgo]

We have Niche Tweaks, which removes that dumbass bug oversight* intentionally kept in the game lol

[balmy pier]

oh did they release that

[unreal ginkgo]

Mhm

[daring oar]

what jump exploit are we talking about

[balmy pier]

bunny hop as you call it

[unreal ginkgo]

Jumps not making any noise when it's on ground height

[daring oar]

oh

ive had a fix for that in BF for months

years actually

it was in like the second update

lol

[unreal ginkgo]

Purple doesn't use it, so

That's why I brought it up

[balmy pier]

i only dont because of them plus earth leviathans being the most unfair monster combo in the game

its not because of the search routine reset

[unreal ginkgo]

This is still a relatively easy pickle to get out of, in our personal experience

I wouldn't call it a crazy unfair combo when combos like coil-heads + thumpers exist

[thin comet]

Use the leviathan to kill the dog

[unreal ginkgo]

It doesn't happen often anyway really do to just

how uncommon earth leviathans are in general

They are practically absent late-game, save for a couple or so encounters on Artifice

[balmy pier]

its not always that simple

imagine you have like, 3 big bolts, and a chemical jug on adamance, and you have to crouch to avoid an eyeless dog hearing you, but an earth leviathan shows up also

you can drop your stuff, but the dog cant hear it
and even then, its RNG when the leviathan decides to pop out, and just may not for a while

[unreal ginkgo]

Drop all of them, lure the dog and leviathan together, and haul ass backwards either down the fastest route away from the emergin leviathan

[balmy pier]

if the dog hears you too early, then an entire slew of possibilities comes in

[unreal ginkgo]

That's what we consistently do

[balmy pier]

its just a big mess

[unreal ginkgo]

If the dog wasn't eaten, that's fine, at least the leviathan is gone for now. If they were, then even better

[balmy pier]

every other combo has some consistent solution

even bracken plus coil

actually id say bracken plus ghost girl is worse than that

but theres still more you can do than dog plus leviathan

[raven patrol]

Since this mod might be getting some more updates soon, I would like to re-suggest some of my old ideas:

• Zap Gun fully immobilizes adult Maneaters when zapping them
• Sapsucker Eggs should have their hatch timer dynamically scale with distance from the ship, that way whether they are possible to get is not entirely dependent on a closer spawn
• Boombox and Record Player should decrease player character insanity
• Loud Horn causes Dogs in close proximity to the Ship to enter their unused cowering animation and essentially become inert
• Loud Horn can disorient Earth Leviathans (since they canonically hunt using sound and vibrations)
• Binoculars could be make into a functional item that allows you to see through Fog/Blizzards

I also have a new, radial idea for buffing Zap Gun more, which is to make it be able to destroy enemy vent ducts, kinda like in really old LC betas iirc. You could create semi-safe areas around entrances by removing enemies’ ability to spawn right there, but it is not OP because it would take a long time to locate and destroy most of a map’s vents. Plus with the new SCF mod you could make enemies able to double-up in a vent if there are not enough on the map for an incoming spawn wave. Just an idea…

[naive mesa]

The fabled nutcracker + thumper

[daring oar]

i have so much stuff i want to do for the next update im not sure when i'd be able to get to suggestions

but i can probably at least sneak in the first of these pretty easily

[raven patrol]

Epic

[dawn locust]

Is there no way to disable this? It's overriding my LunarConfig values

Oops, didn't mean to ping but yh

[daring oar]

if you're using lunarconfig you should enable the "kill switch" in the moons settings

im nearly certain i dont patch anything if that's enabled

i've missed a couple spots here and there but i've fixed them when i've become aware

[dawn locust]

Got it, thanks 🙏

[unreal ginkgo]

Certain settings are okay /w Lunar I believe?

Like masked on Assurance if you don't have the interior entities setting enabled in Lunar

[daring oar]

certain settings are probably compatible by accident but i have 0 intent to guarantee compatibility

if you're using something like lunar config you can just copy my changes over anyway

lol

[daring oar]

i don't mind giving specifics on how to do that if you ask

as an offer to "anybody who's interested"

i would just use lunarconfig myself TBH if not for the fact it doesn't host sync

very rarely are my friends using an identical profile to mine so BRB was supposed to let me make balance changes without them constantly editing configs

also BRB lets me edit enemy behaviors (which would exist regardless of lunarconfig)

[unreal ginkgo]

Since you're unsure about the compatibility, d'you mind giving us the values of all of these? (The entities specifically)

We're gonna huff compium and hope the snowman thing still works

Since we use Rebalanced Moons and Map Improvements

Oh wait, I can just change this

Are snowmen still within the game files, or have they been removed completely?

[runic cobalt]

they're still in the game files iirc

[unreal ginkgo]

If they are, we'd appreciate if you gave us the rare curve string for snowmen and tall snowmen too

That way we can practically use all your settings without actually conflicting with ButteRyBalance's moon edits

[unreal ginkgo]

@daring oar ...?

[raven patrol]

I think the Wiki lists some of these

Thunderstore Wiki that is

[unreal ginkgo]

It does not

[daring oar]

16 offense 2 assurance 4 dine

snowmen

new(0f, 1f),
new(0.91526645f, 0.51239717f),
new(0.9849292f, 2.1915612f),
new(1f, 20.047966f)

tall snowmen

new(0f, 0f),
new(0.5777875f, 0.1802702f),
new(0.974945f, 0.6073564f),
new(1f, 3.4162483f)

[raven patrol]

Offhandedly I think Circuit Bees were given a weight of 31 iirc

I was there when this was being discussed to be added to the mod

[unreal ginkgo]

4 dine for both butlers and masked ?

[raven patrol]

Offense v66 interior weights:
Facility: 150
Mansion: 4
Mineshaft: 300

Assuming this is what BYB uses since it mentions v66 in the Wiki description

[daring oar]

i reduced butlers from 24 to 15

that combined with the butler manor chance multiplier (1.7x) makes them 25

the idea is just i basically want them to feel identical in manors but show up less in mineshafts

[daring oar]

yes i just reused offense's original weights

for vow it's like 50/300 factory/mineshaft

[unreal ginkgo]

So in a config, it'd go like...
0.00, 0.00;0.91526645, 0.51239717;0.9849292, 2.1915612;1.00, 20.047966

?

[daring oar]

i dont know how lunarconfig is formatted

but the values i gave are x and y

in order

for each keyframe

[unreal ginkgo]

Alr, ty

[daring oar]

lol

it looks like i made a mistake with the infestation rework

which would cause infestation enemies to get stuck at reduced power level until you reoboted your game

and this mistake appears to have been in the mod ever since i added infestation reworks

i had 2 lines of code backwards

surprised nobody ever seemed to notice that

myself included

[thin comet]

hotfix?

[daring oar]

i need to release an update for this mod anyway

i want to deprecate ventspawnfix and migrate it to spawncyclefixes

so i guess i will do this at the same time

[daring oar]

i will be deprecating many of the changes in this mod

it appears

zeekerss reduced outdoor power on adamance

shrunk march

dine got a bunch of power adjustments

[daring oar]

ultimately some very confusing changes across the board

vow, adamance, and dine all had their mineshaft chance reduced (on dine it was reduced to be even lower than rend)

dine got its outdoor spawns fucked up pretty good

75% chance of forest giants (up from 60%) and 9 power level means getting 3 is possible again

also had its indoor spawns completely changed

reduced from 16 power to 10 (same as rend) and now:

• increased: snare flea, slime, bracken
• decreased: butler, barber

offense got "buffed" by adding 1 extra scrap to its max spawns and nothing else changed

assurance also got buffed with less maneaters and more sapsuckers and no other changes

[thin comet]

Any fixes for multiple barbers?

[daring oar]

barbers are totally unchanged

i have no idea what im gonna do with this mod

i can remove many of the changes i made

but im probably gonna have to totally rewrite the wiki at this point

[thin comet]

All moons have that diversity meter?

[daring oar]

it defaults to 100 "diversity points" and many dont even bother setting a cap

[dense flicker]

Take your time

[thin comet]

It looks like rend has dine scraps too

[wind spoke]

what

[daring oar]

yes

rend has the same chance of spawning feet as zed dog now

for some reason

lol

that's all though

[wind spoke]

oh

thats like nothing

[daring oar]

anyways playing v80 i feel like ive been going through a bit of an identity crisis with this mod

[wind spoke]

minor cool feature on rend

[daring oar]

so many of the changes i made have either been made to vanilla or no longer make sense with vanilla

moon changes

i mean

the infestation rework, enemy changes, etc. i think those are all still pretty much fine

[wind spoke]

I think a lot of them will have to be reworked

[daring oar]

i feel like i cna't really condone leaving my moon settings on as "the intended experience" anymore

like evne im not really happy with that now

[wind spoke]

reading "rend has dine scraps" made me think that Zeekerss was evil and just completely killed Dine's gimmick so that Rend also has it

I like how ||Cadaver Blooms can spawn on Rend and Dine|| though, thats cool

[cloud halo]

Now I'm curious what every single moon change is, has someone wrote all of it down somewhere?

[daring oar]

i will make a list somewhere

[runic cobalt]

doesnt 1a3's website have a section for that kind of thing?

i dont know if he pulls the changes automatically though

[daring oar]

he has all the stats listed but hasnt written a changelog for v80 yet

[runic cobalt]

it's definitely possible if he runs the game once and has something setup to compare previous data but no idea

[runic cobalt]

ic makes sense

[cloud halo]

Please ping me when it has been made

[dense flicker]

So how does the changes of the fox compare to what butterybalance did

[daring oar]

all i did in BRB was lower its HP to 6

so it was easier to kill with the shotgun or explosions

that change would technically still be relevant (although if im being honest i didnt even play with it on because i think the fox dies too easily for my taste, in hindsight)

[dense flicker]

Oh huh, I thought you changed up the spawns of veil shrouds

[daring oar]

i disabled vain shrouds on titan and embrion *initially

but then i removed that because that became a feature of yesfox

[dense flicker]

Ah

Did yes fox make tweaks then

[daring oar]

no but yesfox added the ability to configure shroud values for individual moons

so i just told people to disable them on titan/embrion using yesfox instead

[dense flicker]

Lol fair enough

It just seemed tamer

Maybe that was official behavior

[raven patrol]

Looks like Cadaver Growths are gonna be the problem child of v80, their spread rate is too high for a 2 power enemy imo, plus not being able to spray yourself with Weed Killer akin to hitting a Snare Flea off your head feels a bit dumb

[analog cypress]

Allow me to drink weed killer.

https://tenor.com/view/xwf-harvey-steve-harvey-alcohol-alcoholic-gif-9090029671315053901

[raven patrol]

I mean if it’s good for the Cruiser it’s good for us obviously

[daring oar]

serious question for you folks

would anybody be like

upset if i just deleted almost all of the moon settings from this mod

completely

there's a bunch of these i kinda just feel like removing

and another half of which i kinda feel like people would rather just disable and use something like lunarconfig for

[daring oar]

vanilla balance has changed so much that some of these are just straight up obsolete

shrink march used to reduce march from 2x interior size to 1.8x interior size

but now vanilla march is just 1.75x

[raven patrol]

The only setting that does not have a mod equivalent is the option to remove random events on Experimentation only. The random event config mods I know of only have global settings.

I also think keeping “Bigger on the Inside” for Embrion would be cool, we can do that one via other mods but would be a bit more work.

Only thing I would say otherwise is you should consider releasing a repository for the weights/strings you used for scrap and enemy rebalances. Esoteric stuff like that will be hard to fully replicate blind even though we have the ability to.

WeatherInjector: weather rebalances
Lunar Config: basically everything else

Also I remember you saying things like Butlers having increased spawns in Mansion were made with your rebalances in mind, so those would need retooling

[unreal ginkgo]

Keep the snowmen, at least

I'd still wanna see the little guys

[daring oar]

well i wouldn't be removing absolutely everything

but there's a lot of stuff i dont really agree witha nymore and dont feel like maintaining

[unreal ginkgo]

Fair

[raven patrol]

Snowmen can be added back via Lunar

[thin comet]

I trust your vision

[turbid basin]

I really like many of the settings, although I'm not sure if Dine's outdoor spawn changes worked as I still only got giants and dogs.

Assurance and Offense options were really good.

[ripe tartan]

honestly wasnt really using the moon specific stuff, i love the enemy and item stuff, and some global stuff - the outdoor and indoor fog changes and the smaller mineshafts

[analog cypress]

I also don't mind some balances going away... Assurance nerfs are great and masked on Offense was an funny experience

Coilheads on Vow is unfair, especially when it has an guaranteed bracken

[thin comet]

Assurance being nerfed and Offense buffed are really great.

[dense flicker]

I default to your judgement

Offense i still think could use some love until a rework (if it ever happens)

[shut torrent]

I really like the moon options for dine, since changing the scrap back to what it was before v73 is really nice

[dire sedge]

i do really like the numbers rebalancing for dine yes

[shut torrent]

Yeee :)

[stiff tusk]

does spawncyclefixes work on v81?

[daring oar]

no

zeekerss made a bunch of changes to the spawn system and i got about halfway done with updating for it before burning out

it is gonna take me a while

[stiff tusk]

take your time man

[shrewd shale]

@daring oar [21:57:07.7194463] [Error : Unity Log] TypeLoadException: Could not resolve type with token 01000043 from typeref (expected class 'DunGen.RuntimeDungeon' in assembly 'Assembly-CSharp, Version=0.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null')
Stack trace:
System.Reflection.MonoMethodInfo.GetMethodInfo (System.IntPtr handle) (at <1071a2cb0cb3433aae80a793c277a048>:IL_0000)
System.Reflection.RuntimeMethodInfo.GetPseudoCustomAttributes () (at <1071a2cb0cb3433aae80a793c277a048>:IL_0002)
System.MonoCustomAttrs.GetPseudoCustomAttributes (System.Reflection.ICustomAttributeProvider obj, System.Type attributeType) (at <1071a2cb0cb3433aae80a793c277a048>:IL_000C)
System.MonoCustomAttrs.GetCustomAttributesBase (System.Reflection.ICustomAttributeProvider obj, System.Type attributeType, System.Boolean inheritedOnly) (at <1071a2cb0cb3433aae80a793c277a048>:IL_0021)
System.MonoCustomAttrs.GetCustomAttributes (System.Reflection.ICustomAttributeProvider obj, System.Type attributeType, System.Boolean inherit) (at <1071a2cb0cb3433aae80a793c277a048>:IL_0037)
System.Reflection.RuntimeMethodInfo.GetCustomAttributes (System.Type attributeType, System.Boolean inherit) (at <1071a2cb0cb3433aae80a793c277a048>:IL_0000)
ButteRyBalance.Plugin.NetcodePatch () (at <cd7c9313b29c43878697124d669f827f>:IL_0023)
ButteRyBalance.Plugin.Awake () (at <cd7c9313b29c43878697124d669f827f>:IL_0000)
UnityEngine.GameObject:AddComponent(Type)
BepInEx.Bootstrap.Chainloader:DMDBepInEx.Bootstrap.Chainloader::Start()
MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition:TrampolineBepInEx.Bootstrap.Chainloader::Start?-772153468()
AsyncLoggers.Patches.ChainloaderPatch:DetourStart(Action) (at ./Preloader/src/Patches/ChainloaderPatch.cs:42)
MonoMod.Utils.DynamicMethodDefinition:HookBepInEx.Bootstrap.Chainloader::Start?-834636856()
UnityEngine.XR.Management.XRGeneralSettings:Awake()

newest version

[daring oar]

i havent updated brb at all

so this is to be expected

[daring oar]

okay guys i think this is it. this is the last mod i have left that needs a v81 update

i realized while i was talking with cookie i might have been over-estimating how difficult finalizing the update for SCF was going to be

so i powered through that tonight

which also cleared VSF and barber fixes off my plate

with all the dependencies updated, and nothing else in my catalog requiring fixes, that means the path should be clear for me to finish BRB

but i have to decide what exactly that's going to entail now, i guess

[jagged nexus]

MeleeFixes is fine as is?

I haven't actually added it cus idk if it's still needed

[daring oar]

it works fine in v81 and he hasnt changed any of the stuff im changing

[jagged nexus]

Alright good to know

[daring oar]

there is that snare flea problem but as far as i can tell

[jagged nexus]

You prolly should just do a version bump then to confirm v81 compat for people

lol

[daring oar]

that's a bug with vanilla, and it's not even necessarily a problem that i can fix

at least, not with weapons

it seems like it's a bug with the actual snare flea

as far as i can tell

anyways

im thinking im gonna delete just about every moon setting from this mod

at least the ones that are possible to change with lunar config

i no longer agree with all of the changes ive made and most of them are easy to recreate yourself anyhow

and it gives me less stuff to maintain that im not actively using

[jagged nexus]

Yeah very fair, it would remove a ton of overhead from the mod

and Zeekerss did rebalance some of the moons with V80

[daring oar]

i will probably keep some of the stuff that to my knowledge is more difficult to replicate

like dine's "fix floods" setting im not sure you can do with lunar config so that will probably stick around

[jagged nexus]

Ye

[daring oar]

there's also a lot of shit that's just obsolete

like i deleted the "shrink march" config because all it did was make march 2x -> 1.8x

but then zeekerss made march 1.75x and also shrank the 3-exits factory variant

so march is like ~1.59x now

lol

i have a few things in mind for the cadavers, mainly just number tweaks

but the vast majority of the update is just going to be housekeeping and hopefully i will not make anybody too upset with what i plan to remove

we shall see in any case

that being said im gonna go to bed and start on this again tomorrow

[jagged nexus]

March is so much better now

The new layout is amazing, and the interior doesn't suck anymore

lol

[jagged nexus]

@daring oar Just to let you know you did not add SpawnCycleFixes as a dep for BarberFixes

Dunno if you meant to

You did lol

But yeah it has no dep rn other than BepInEx

[raven patrol]

Weather Injector allows us to change Flooded values and Eclipse spawn cycles

[crude pier]

did offense get a big buff in v80? (haven't read any patch notes)
I've tried going there a bunch and it spawns a TON of two handed items, which makes it hard to make a whole lot of money from there. Especially considering the fact that you rarely have access to the fire exit (giving you less options to find single handed items to go alongside two handed items).

[raven patrol]

Offense was not buffed in v80, but Zeekerss said in the Zeekord he does have plans for it

[crude pier]

ooo

I love how hard offense can be, just wish there were less two-handed items/better loot

having to dodge 4 turrets and 6 mines is amazing /serious

[raven patrol]

Ye, we still have March as the 2 handed mania

[thin comet]

Since I remove meleefixes I didn't have problems hitting snare fleas

[jagged nexus]

Do you always crouch to hit them?

It makes it way easier

lol

[thin comet]

Only the first hit

Then I running and keep hitting them

[jagged nexus]

If MeleeFixes is affecting Snare Fleas it may just be smth with a cached reference since he did change smth with Snare Fleas

[unreal ginkgo]

?

without meleefixes installed, you can hit snare fleas consistently just fine

what

[dire sedge]

https://discord.com/channels/750645598293590077/1492377328150380615

[dire sedge]

it was, it got much higher mineshaft chances and +1 max item

[dire sedge]

YAYYYY CONGRATS!!!!!

BUTTERY THE GOAT 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥

so awesome im very happy for you

[unreal ginkgo]

Huh???

I could hit snare fleas just fine without meleefixes solo in v80

Am I tweaking

[dire sedge]

dunno what to tell you

if you haven't been having the bug that's definitely good lol

it sucks

but a lot of people are getting it

[unreal ginkgo]

I mean yeah snare fleas are bugs

[dire sedge]

Alright

[unreal ginkgo]

(Well not technically but fuck you)

[dire sedge]

GRRR

[unreal ginkgo]

Centipedes

[dire sedge]

sends my army of centipedes after you

[unreal ginkgo]

I’m so cute and innocent

[daring oar]

this is intentional

id do it if zeekerss made barbers spawn in pairs, but because thats not default behavior and a config not everyone will use, it's not really a requirement

[daring oar]

@crude pier offense actually was buffed but the way he did it im not 100% happy with

max scrap was increased from 17 to 18

and mineshaft chance went from ~40% to ~80% which is +5 items compared to factory

with adamance also getting nerfed

offense is actually the most lucrative free moon right now

but because we live in a universe where offense getting "just buffed" is inconceivable

this was met with zeekerss also increasing trap spawn rates

[daring oar]

i still think it's good that offense actually rewards you for the risk of playing it now but this change just feels totally unnecessary because traps were already pretty horrible on offense

and with it being a mineshaft that also means having a ship guy deal with the traps feels pretty bad

anyways the loot itself still sucks but it spawns so much more than any other free moon rn that it still actually winds up on top

anyways

[daring oar]

@unreal ginkgo nothing about v80+ changed shovels and the snare flea AI didnt change in a way that seems like it should prevent shovels from dealing damage

but someone in zeekcord reported the snare flea bug in a purely vanilla game

so something is wrong with vanilla itself it would seem

i have no idea if meleefixes is somehow making the issue replicate more frequently (if it is id have no idea how) but it's definitely not the cause

[unreal ginkgo]

Are you sure they weren’t just running a modded client??

Shovels and snare fleas have worked fine ever since I disabled MeleeFixes

I have not encountered the bug ever since

[daring oar]

they literally said "this was 100% vanilla" and this is the same person that was reporting a bunch of other bugs after the beta released

all of which were also 100% vanilla

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh

I see

Weird

[daring oar]

like again

i wouldnt necessarily say "meleefixes is absolutely not contributing to the problem"

but it is not the only source of issues

and if it was causing issues id expect to be able to tell why

but nothing im seeing makes sense for "oh this would break shovels"

[unreal ginkgo]

also, i thought mineshaft was a +6 item increase, not 5

[daring oar]

i might need to re-rip the latest version and compare the snare flea's prefab

to v73

i wonder if the gameobject colliders changed

[unreal ginkgo]

i see

[daring oar]

mineshaft is +6 but factory is +1 because of apparatus

[unreal ginkgo]

oh

[daring oar]

manor just gets the short end of the stick

Lol !

[daring oar]

anyways i dont use cached references to deal damage in meleefixes, i just use a cached reference to roundmanager for playaudiblenoise (the function which alerts dog and maneater)

at this point i believe all shovel damage logic is identical to vanilla now, since there's nothing left for me to fix in that regard

meleefixes mostly fixes knives (which still have collision issues when someone watches you on cams...) and shotguns now

[runic cobalt]

waiting for meleefixes to fix landmine damage surely

[daring oar]

i am seeing one way that meleefixes could make the snare flea problem worse but only if they used a specific flag on their collider

which they don't seem to use!

i will still push an update for this

just to be safe

[daring oar]

unless this specific flag changed after i ripped the game but im pretty sure im only a single build behind "absolute latest"

and zeekerss changed snare fleas in "the build before that"

so im still skeptical

actually wait nvm

i see what's happening here

meleefixes 100% without a doubt makes the problem worse

very quick and easy hotfix, and i still can't explain how it happened in vanilla, but i will push a hotfix for melee fixes which will at least avoid making the problem worse

[thin comet]

I wouldn't like her to just remove an option bc LunarConfig or another mod already can do this.

[unreal ginkgo]

Yeah

I don’t want install more shit to use features that the mod had previously, thanks

[dire sedge]

that's pretty rude

[daring oar]

you are already using lunarconfig, are you not?? most of the stuff i want to remove is just stuff

1. I personally don't use anymore
2. that can already be replicated easily with lunarconfig

the biggest crisis im running into with this mod right now is that it includes a bunch of changes i don't even use or support anymore

but i have to maintain all of them if i leave them in as settings

zeekerss and i had completely opposing ideas of adamance balance

and so all of the settings i've implemented i feel like just conflict with both zeekerss' vision and my "new vision" of adamance

i could just disable it and leave it as is but that sort of thing gets messy and irritating to maintain

i dont plan to remove stuff that is more specialized

like all the coilhead AI changes you can't just replace with lunarconfig

but like

if people just want the scrap table settings from this mod

i could format them as lunarconfig strings and just give those

and then i can remove the settings which (i feel like) very few people are using

which makes the config more wieldy and makes updates easier to do going forward

[unreal ginkgo]

I could’ve worded more respectfully, but my sentiment is that installing complex mods over what you have already is, not really annoying, but I feel just unnecessary

I’m not trying to convince you to keep the features though. Your mod, your rules

Weather injector fries my brain

I apologize for coming off as rude

[daring oar]

i would agree with this (and historically have agreed with this)

installing complex mods over what you have already is, not really annoying, but I feel just unnecessary
but i just get the impression that a lot of the BRB userbase is already using lunarconfig and is just supplementing their modpack with some specific changes from BRB and disabling most of the stuff that conflicts or is unnecessary with lunarconfig

maybe im overestimating how many people this applies to

but i know that you have asked me about lunarconfig values before

ANN and purple use lunarconfig for their modpacks now (im actually not even sure purple uses this mod?)

lunx uses lunarconfig i believe

etc.

so if so much of my userbase is using lunarconfig, and so much stuff in this mod is stuff that you can already do with lunarconfig that im not even personally using myself

[unreal ginkgo]

I used to configure my stuff a lot, even moreso than Purple, but I generally find what you and Zeekerss more preferable and fun, and I don’t want to hassle you for literally every string and weight you’ve done

So I just prefer what you two spoon feed me now

My game design skills are not very good

[daring oar]

lol

well

i guess i will have to figure it out

[unreal ginkgo]

I’ll adapt and overcome if this stuff just ends up getting removed though

It’s not the end of the world

[daring oar]

im probably going to be making changes to what i have regardless, and im probably gonna disable a bunch of shit by default, but if there is really support for these settings and people want to have them

then i will try not to remove more than what is necessary

[thin comet]

I use lunarconfig, but it has a few options I don't understand like curves.

[unreal ginkgo]

I gave up on redoing my modpack since spawn curves are just so fucking tedious

Last moon I worked on was Vow

Experi and Ass got full overhauls from me before I just decided to shoot the modpack in the back of the head after I left Vow in a limbo state

[unreal ginkgo]

Samantha when they realize they have to type words and sit on their ass tomorrow

[analog cypress]

I don't wanna be rude also, totally understand what you're saying and I don't mind removing stuff that doesn't align with your/Zeekerss vision. My problem and maybe of a bunch of people is that mods like LunarConfig have a ton of overload information that it gets confusing and it's just easier to download a mod and enable a option that makes fair changes like this one

[raven patrol]

Hmmm, well it’s at least something

[unreal ginkgo]

Yeah essentially what I’m trying to say

I already likely have a learning disability already

So I just 💥

[daring oar]

i am probably still going to simplify and remove several settings

regardless

like im probably gonna remove some of the scrap settings i have going on with dine

i feel like just having "vanilla", "consolidate", and "rollback" as the only 3 settings should be "good 'nuff"

a lot of what i was doing with that setting was just experimentation to see what would stick

and personally i've settled on the former 2 options

as being "it" for me

i also dont really care that much about making minute scrap adjustments to different moons anymore

[analog cypress]

will you keep the scrap weight changes at least?

[daring oar]

so i will probably remove the settings that adjust stuff on rend, vow, etc.

[analog cypress]

Or it's just moon related configs?

[daring oar]

but i do think that the bigger ticket ones (like assurance/offense getting big swaps) are still probably stuff i'd want to have

so i feel better about keeping those

[daring oar]

i don't really have much reason to remove this

although i might adjust yield signs

[analog cypress]

yay

[daring oar]

zeekerss increased stop signs from 24.15lbs to 28.35lbs

so with that setting making yield signs 31.5lbs there's basically no difference between them except sell price

it was kind of nice having the trifecta of 13.65lbs shovels, 24.15lbs stop signs, and 31.5lbs yield signs

but the stop sign nerf really crushes that range

maybe i should just go the complete opposite direction

and make stop signs and yield signs lighter weight

[analog cypress]

stop sign buff incoming?

https://tenor.com/view/happy-blingee-dolphin-picmix-gif-12978169509439366364

[daring oar]

so you have "better shovels" which you can't store in a belt bag, lose on team wipe, and which hold monetary value you risk losing by taking it inside

then shovels are just the consistently available option by store purchase

[analog cypress]

Don't do this with the shovels, they can't even be put on the utility slot

it'll end up getting the lockpick treatment

[daring oar]

this is something i will consider though honestly i think it's out of scope for the v81 update im more worried about just getting something functional released before i take too much longer

[daring oar]

this ^ is something i will consider

anyway

[dire sedge]

oooh i like this idea

[analog cypress]

i trust your decisions, take your time

[dire sedge]

take as much time as you need for anything else you wanna add yeah! ^_^

[daring oar]

idk i was just working sloppy or what

but apparently i fucked a bunch of stuff up with the way i implemented infestations

more specifically the whole "infestation enemies take up 0 power level for the day" thing

it apparently caused the infestation enemy to just start taking up 0 power

period

until you restarted the game

because the system i had in place to restore their original power level was broken in more than one way

and somehow i just never noticed or did anything about it???

[daring oar]

like, when i reported on it here... i was aware it was broken in one place

i just became aware (like right this second) that it was broken even worse in another place

literally how did i even let this happen

anyways it should be actually fixed now

for v0.4

[glass yacht]

😔

[daring oar]

honestly im feeling a lot better about the state of the mod now that i've gotten to work some on new v81 stuff

and after conversing about it earlier

it has felt like a giant block of lead i was just unable to move

for weeks after v80 beta

and now im feeling optimistic about it for once

i still think the next update is going to be a little bit of a mess, so sorry about that

also im still not sure when i can have it done

but i think it will be "Okay"

[dire sedge]

i'm very happy you're feeling better about it now :-) ❤️

[shut torrent]

Weighing in on this idea: I personally really like it

Although I'm not which one out of both the stop sign and the yield sign to make lighter

I'd assume you'd make the stop sign lighter since that's the more costly one, but visually speaking the yield sign looks a lot more lightweight than the stop sign

As for moon changes, The dine scrap changes as well as the eclipsed spawn weight changes for various moons are the only ones I super duper care about I suppose. Most of the other changes were really cool and I had a ton of fun with them over the last year or so of playing but it's not a dealbreaker if they're removed

I would say if you don't feel that the moon changes currently reflect either your/zeekers vision for the game, instead of scrapping them althogether, you could instead make new rebalances that better fit how you feel the moons should be

Although that would take time and effort, and as you said it would make the mod harder to maintain

Also, I know I said this before in another thread, but I'm just posting this for posterity so that everyone else can see it: Having shovel input buffers implemented would be really cool :)

[daring oar]

yes to both

i would probably make stop signs lighter since they have more sell value

but i do agree intuitively it makes more sense that yield signs would be lighter

so im not sure

i've decided that for this next update im gonna remove a lot of the "junk"

like vow's "adjust scrap" setting is barely doing anything in the long run and just feels kind of unnecessary

and i dont feel like maintaining that

but for some of the more impactful stuff i will keep it and just disable it by default if i don't agree with what it's doing anymore

[shut torrent]

Completely understandable

[daring oar]

im thinking i might want to do another balance pass on the moons again, but in a different light

im not sure if i'd make a bunch of per-moon settings for this

but like

maybe just having one big checkbox that's like "overhaul moon diversity"

and makes a bunch of changes across the board

i'd really like to emphasize the fauna descriptions on the moons a lot better

i think it's really weird that adamance spawns masked now

since cadavers are like adamance's "big mimic enemy"

and adamance is no longer just "the moon that spawns everything"

[shut torrent]

Wow really?

I haven't been keeping up with v81's changes it seems

[daring oar]

meanwhile i think masked fit really nicely on offense and so historically i've just given players the ability to enable masked on offense

[shut torrent]

Oh wait nvm I'm dumb

[daring oar]

but i think my new vision is more like... i'd like to move the masked from adamance to offense instead

there's a lot of stuff i'd like to change in tandem with each other across the entire moon scene

[shut torrent]

I will say, I do think masked spawning on offense is more fitting since offense is all about having lots of dangerous but killable enemies spawning in

[daring oar]

yes

another issue i have with offense is the existence of the bracken

technically the bracken is killable but if you're killing the bracken you're not really "dealing with the bracken" as its mechanics are intended to be

the bracken is more like a silent stalker type that's a persistent threat which you have the option to kill

but it's strongly discouraged

meanwhile thumpers are like "kill me or you can't access this part of the building anymore"

offense having both cakes feels really weird and conflicting

and it means the day-by-day experience on offense comes down to a lot of uncontrollable luck

[shut torrent]

Yeah I getcha

[daring oar]

i'd like to make a concentrated effort to establish more of a specific gameplay identity for each moon because right now i think the game is just too varied and unpredictable

[shut torrent]

Offense seems like the vision would be putting all the danger upfront instead of in omnipresent threats that can be played around passively

[daring oar]

having some room for random events to change up the game is fun, like getting a meteor shower in the middle of the day, or walking in on an infestation you weren't expecting

[shut torrent]

Yeah that's one of my big problems for lethal company as a whole right now

The gameplay balance and vision is a bit scattered

[daring oar]

but when you land on a moon like offense and 50% of the time it's stuff like thumpers and 50% of the time it's coilheads and bracken and maneater

it's just like

what am i landing on offense for

i have no idea what it's going to be like each time i play

i can't decide if i "feel like playing offense" because i have no idea what offense is even going to remotely resemble for that day

i'd like to try and focus in on that i think going forward

[wind spoke]

Yeah that would be great

[shut torrent]

I think that would be a huge benefit yeah

Because like

The way the moons are balanced right now is not necessarily the most easy to understand or reckon with

The easy tier 1 moons like exp, ass, or vow are fine I guess, but then intermediate is a bit weird with how offense is currently the most profitable, or how endgame enemies like coilheads or jesters can spawn in on some of them, or how the profit margin seems to go down from offense to march to adamance

And then the starting endgame moons like dine are just weird

And produce a level of scrap that completely shatters artifice in two

Rend seems to be okay

Titan is once again weird, since dine's just better if you know what you're doing

Embrion is fucked

And then artifice is what you'd think would be the endgame moon of all endgame moons but dine exists

There's no real "curve" so to speak of moons slowly becoming more threatening/profitable, it just randomly spikes and goes down or up

I feel like v90 should be the "moon" update because honestly dine's gimmick would be better served elsewhere

Like in a higher tier endgame moon or something like that

And honestly even then I think your "consolidate" option should just be vanilla

@daring oar

[thin comet]

And Embrion?

[shut torrent]

Make 3 new moons after the intermediate ones, give them all low cost but marginally higher profits

Make embrion one of those moons

And then rework embrion from the ground up to be better

Or at least, that's what I'd hope for in the final version of lethal

11 moons is just too little

And embrion deserves to be more than just a joke/bad moon

[wind spoke]

I agree that Embrion should be better but I think that it being a non hidden moon would lower its impact

[signal stream]

I think 11 moons-ish could be fine if they had a lot of work put into them (eg. in the direction of the march remake)

[shut torrent]

Liquidation could be reimplemented to be among artifice, and then a new extra moon could be added on top of that to make a trifecta of artifice/liquidation/whatever new moon gets added

5 tiers, 3 moons each tier

[shut torrent]

I guess

Honestly these days I'm so used to knowing embrion exists that I never think of it being hidden at all

And honestly what's the real point of it being hidden anyway, outside of lore reasons

[shut torrent]

I agree with you, but also I'm biased since I'm obsessive compulsive and I have a biased dislike for odd numbers

[analog cypress]

Just wanted to say something because I can't be the only one triggered about Feiopars bestiary saying its exclusive to Vow, March Adamance but doesn't spawn on Adamance

[shut torrent]

I'm more bothered that such a cool enemy spawns in so few places

I was grinding blood moon a few hours ago and the feiopar encounters are always so fun and intense, and I wish I had to deal with them more often

[analog cypress]

I'm really glad that they have a sound cue when they're about to attack, I don't need to be paranoid to check-up behind everytime like Bracken

[wind spoke]

The thing with Embrion is that there was a certain moment when it was already surprising that Artifice existed as a secret moon and then you look in the Old Bird bestiary and see "Embrion" and you think "no way can we route to there" but you type it in anyways revealing that you actually can

it makes the world feel bigger

I think the powercount inside on Embrion could be nerfed into the ground while buffing the scrap by a bit would be enough to make it not totally a joke

since I like the idea of a moon that is pretty easy on the inside but outside its horrible

[analog cypress]

Dine 👑

[wind spoke]

Dine already has the body part thing

also its more fair on embrion because you can see what you're getting into as soon as you land

instead of being suprised by like 3 giants at once

[daring oar]

this has 3 separate bug reports on zeekcord so you arent

that being said it makes sense to me and i personally dont feel like changing it

[analog cypress]

lol, I wouldn't say its a bug but ok

[crude pier]

Me when the fox basically doesn’t exist

I’ve only seen the fox spawn once (and stayed there) on dine

And I’ve played a decent amount of the update too

[vast orbit]

I always thought that Embrion could fit nicely alongside Titan and Artifice as a third endgame choice. You would pick between a relatively tame exterior / very dangerous interior, a relatively tame interior / crazy exterior, and a balance of both

[daring oar]

im curious if you might get exactly what you wish for in the next update

[crude pier]

An actually “viable” embrion would be so cool and epic and silly

[vernal turtle]

is there supposed to be a config file for this mod because it just doesn't show up for my friend no matter what he does
This is on r2modman

[vernal turtle]

@daring oar

[daring oar]

if you are using this mod on v81 i doubt it works

v0.3.2 is for v73

i've still been busy updating this mod to v81 since i'm overhauling most of the stuff in the config

i want to say v0.4.0 is "close to done" but progressing nowhere nearly as fast as i anticipated it would

[vernal turtle]

alrighty thank you

[thin comet]

Maneater doesn't cry when a player drop an item, turn on/off a flashlight near them. Is it a bug or a nerf?

[obtuse wave]

please be a nerf 🙏

[daring oar]

im very sorry about the extended wait but i have just published v0.4.0

i got much more experimental with the moon config this time

retired several settings

i do strongly suggest you go through and remake your config

either from scratch, or just go through the new settings one-by-one and make sure you tweak it to your liking

im most interested in getting feedback for the moon settings

and i didnt test absolutely every possible configuration option so i'd like to know if something breaks of course

there will almost certainly be a v0.4.1 because i ran out of time to work on a couple specific things and i didn't want to keep delaying this release since the mod is totally broken outside of v73

next version will probably include a targeted "cadaver nerf" for adamance

and any bugfixes i need to make

and then i would like to try tackling v0.5.0 sooner rather than later because im really interested in working on the cruiser and jetpack in further detail

[dire sedge]

YAYYYYYYYYY CONGRATS :D

https://tenor.com/view/saint-rain-world-rain-world-rainworld-rainworld-saint-rain-world-saint-gif-9043975840412690164

30000 confetti for buttery

nothing to be sorry about, you did it!!! awesome job

[thin comet]

I almost turn on everything

[unreal ginkgo]

What was the original weight of earth leviathans on Rend again?

[thin comet]

0

[unreal ginkgo]

Original

[thin comet]

like before v55?

[unreal ginkgo]

Yeah

[unreal ginkgo]

@daring oar

I can't use your setting because LunarConfig overrides it, so I ask you

[formal solar]

The Dine flood fix doesn't appear to be working unfortunately

[shut torrent]

I have a bit of feedback, but I'm busy atm so I'll respond as soon as I possibly can

[daring oar]

i dont have this problem, but im also having to change this patch a bit for v0.4.1, so im not sure either of our test results matter that much in the long run

do you have the moon kill switch on? if you use that, none of the settings under "moons" apply

including this flood change

[formal solar]

I do not have the kill switch on, no

[daring oar]

that is weird

i guess i just hope the changes im making will coincidentally fix this for you

but the screenshot i sent is from before i implemented those changes

so idk what's wrong to begin with

[raven patrol]

Hey Buttery, whenever me and @shut torrent play together, we always run into this issue where he aggros monsters to kill them, but they for some reason have a big habit of switching aggro to me. It happens a lot with Thumpers and Hoarding Bugs, and yesterday it happened with Circuit Bees even. He aggros them and they just immediately beeline for me as if he is not even there.

[runic cobalt]

if you have a clip that would be really helpful

[raven patrol]

Alex should, hopefully he sees my ping

[shut torrent]

I wasn't recording the last session, but I will remember to clip it next time it happens

[raven patrol]

Don’t you have other clips though?

Thumpers or Hoarding Bugs?

[unreal ginkgo]

Um?

[raven patrol]

31 iirc

No wait

It is 18

[unreal ginkgo]

Thank ya

[shut torrent]

Somewhere I'd imagine but not on hand

I'd have to dig through months of footage

Or clips from other group chats or servers and what have you

But yeah @daring oar I have time to give feedback on stuff regarding the mod

Firstly some minor stuff before the moon changes

I think the price range of the chemical jug should be improved if it's going to be more heavy

Since the chance to find 32 credit jugs is something I've run into quite a lot, and thinking of them being heavier while also having the same price range just feels like they're too punishing

I also still think that (if you want to go through with the idea) the concept of stop signs and yield signs being more lightweight than shovels is a really fun idea and should be implemented as a toggable option in the scrap weight changes or something like that

[daring oar]

honestly im not attached to heavier chemjugs

i just switched them with yield signs

[shut torrent]

Heavy chemjugs can be good

They just need to have a consistently good price range

[daring oar]

if i rebalance yield signs to be lighter i could just give chemjugs their original weight really

as for that targeting thing, that's maybe a symptom of v80 ai changes if it feels like a new issue, but i dont really touch monster AI in that way so im not sure how i could fix it

[shut torrent]

What adjective is referring to is monster retargetting

[daring oar]

also yes sorry it is 18

[shut torrent]

Stuff like janky thumper AI when multiple players are around

Or other things like that

I was meaning to ask you if you could look into the weird buggy thumper retargetting because it affects their movement in a negative way and can make fighting them in multiplayer annoying at best and lethal at worst

[shut torrent]

Understandable

I think either making chemjugs lighter again or changing their price range to be more consistent are both good options

And lighter yield/stop sign is also good

[raven patrol]

It is not a new thing, we have been having it since at least v69

[shut torrent]

Yeah I should have mentioned that

Buggy thumper AI has been around since forever

But anyways

Moon changes

I think march should have some extra changes, like making the outside spawn pool a bit more evenly distributed

Often times when its eclipsed outside, there'll be hordes of dogs that congregate at the ship or around the bridges and make things kinda unpleasant to deal with

Mostly it'd be nice to less eyeless dogs and more feiopars, since dealing with feiopars on march is really fun

This is also a weird situation to speak of since apparently giants are supposed to be the highest spawn on march, but I rarely see them anymore

For adamance, you've already spoken about this, but a option to nerf the spawn chance of cadavers would be really nice

That's about all I have to say about adamance

I think some of the options for rend shouldn't have been taken out, unless there's some reason I'm not understanding

Like the option to decrease the interior size was pretty cool

Entirely (or nearly) removing the chance for mineshafts was also pretty nice, even if it was redundant, I'm less affected by the removal of more diverse enemy spawns but I bet other people thought that was cool too

I know this sort of stuff can be done with lunarconfig, but not everyone wants to use that mod and I play this mod for your well thought out changes and ideas

[raven patrol]

We got a taste of that last night!

[shut torrent]

I assume that all this stuff on rend got removed because it didn't fall in line with what your new vision for the moon balance is, and I assume we'll probably be getting different options soon, but I just wanted to point it out that having more options for rend is really cool

As for dine, the option to spawn masked got removed, I assume that's because you didn't feel they fit there, but I just wanted to ask why is all. I have basically no feedback on dine other than that, it's in a good place

[daring oar]

this was originally in v0.4.0 but i had to remove it because it made me aware of a larger issue with adamance

i plan to add it back in v0.4.1 with a more proper balance

[shut torrent]

Alrighty

[shut torrent]

Will you be revisiting march and rend and giving them a balance passover?

Oh, also, embrion

I'm glad bigger on the inside stayed, since it was a really fun option that hugely reworks the moon and makes it more profitable and viable overall

I do wish the option to adjust the entities spawn rates stayed though, since having more non-biological enemies inside gives embrion more of a identity, and I hope more experimental options for other moons get added as well since you really cooked with bigger on the inside

The only other thing I can really say is that having shovel input buffering be a thing would be nice

But that's basically all the feedback I have

@daring oar (discord seperated this message from the other paragraph for some reason)

[daring oar]

the idea with rend is just

dine is already something so different now i feel like the two moons are no longer in direct competition with each other

and when rend isnt totally overshadowing dine i just dont feel like i need to change it all that much

many of the old changes were just supposed to emphasize rend as the beginner's tier 3

but now i think dine's unique profit model is already going to basically accomplish that

[vapid pier]

Maybe just me but it's kind of a turn off (Dine infinite scrap but no value)

like idc about if it's like

good or not

it's just

not fun

[daring oar]

rend doesnt really need buffs like a smaller interior

but i also feel like it doesnt really need nerfs anymore either since it isnt like dine anyway

so i was kind of happy to throw away most of my changes

the "reduce mineshaft" setting was fairly minimal in impact, vanilla rend is already like 8% chance now and the setting made it like 4%

i made that change because i like rend being the manor and i think the mineshaft chance being so high kind of messes with the big manor reveal

but nobody playing lethal company with brb hasnt already seen the big reveal

just didnt feel worth maintaining the setting for such a small difference that isnt even motivated by a specific goal anymore

i could probably restore the shrunk interior setting if that is really desired but i dont think i need to mess with rend anymore outside of that rn

[shut torrent]

All of that is understandable when reading your perspective on it

[daring oar]

id probably be more interested in adjusting march but just tbh im pretty happy with v80 march