ButteRyBalance

[marble spruce]

how did you fix that

[unreal ginkgo]

This would make the Cruiser less fun to use
Lethal Company is more fun over balancing, and this would ruin the Cruiser quite a bit since you're just taking a shot in the dark with your jump here at that point

[daring oar]

well it is subjective but i think driving the car is way more fun than turbo boosting anyway

[unreal ginkgo]

I drive personally, but I know why people can see how the turbo boost is fun, and this would take a significant portion away from it

[daring oar]

but it is a reward for the effort you invest into learning how to do it

[raven patrol]

I proposed this along with some buffs to other parts of the CC if you did not see

[marble spruce]

pls

[daring oar]

what

[marble spruce]

that was such a head scratcher for me

[daring oar]

it's not an issue with the triggers

[marble spruce]

how did you fix kill triggers not working on seated players

[daring oar]

it's an issue with the cruiser code

players don't activate touch triggers in the middle of animations

and sitting in the seat is considered a special animation

[marble spruce]

oh

[daring oar]

i just added an exception for that

i thought we talked about this already

[marble spruce]

did we?

[daring oar]

but maybe i am misremembering

[marble spruce]

i might've forgotten

[raven patrol]

Which one of you two is more insane?

[daring oar]

in any situation it's fixed

no more driving the car off cliffs on dine

[marble spruce]

great

[raven patrol]

Darn I loved doing that

Anyway I posted my ideas also because some people seem to think the CC is broken and will either be useless or OP with no in-between. My changes are my way of showing how I think that is not the case, we just need to make the Cruiser not be a one-trick pony with Art jump

Make driving it more consistent and accessible and remove the blatantly OP jump, so the CC is used as, you know, a car

[marble spruce]

i will admit it would be cool if someone made the turbo jump into a more controllable thing thats more intuitive

but i dont think it would fit for this

mod

bc yea the turbo jump is kinda just like

good for 1 or 2 things lol

[analog cypress]

How much is the "rare" masked chance on Offense?

[daring oar]

3.66%

in the next version i will reduce coilhead spawn chance which also boosts masked to 3.8%

[analog cypress]

I swear out of 7 times me and my friends went to Offense at least 5 we had a masked spawning

[daring oar]

well

offense has insanely high spawn rates

second only to titan, i believe

[analog cypress]

Not complaining, cuz it was funny/terrifying

[daring oar]

and most enemies that offense spawns with high chance have low spawn caps

only 4 thumpers, only 1 spider, only 4 snare fleas, etc.

[analog cypress]

Have you considered increasing the max spawn cap from the spiders to 2?

[viscid edge]

spiders have a max cap of 1?

[unreal ginkgo]

Bunker spiders have been pretty oppressive in my experience, so I don’t vouch for this personally

If Buttery does end up giving them a cap of 2, then they should have a downward falloff to compensate a bit

[daring oar]

yes, only one spider a day

i disagree that spiders are oppressive but i also don't think they require a higher spawn cap

i think it is way too easy to just wipe them out as soon as they spawn

and increasing how many can spawn doesn't really fix that

it just takes away potential spawn slots for other enemies

[unreal ginkgo]

You know the Arachnophobia mod, right? Maybe increase their chasing speed a bit

[daring oar]

i am unfamiliar with arachnophobia

outside of knowing it exists

the only times i feel like the spider is ever actually problematic in vanilla is when it nests inside the caverns

the caverns are so claustrophobic it is really tight jumping over them

or bypassing their webs (either routing around or jumping over)

[unreal ginkgo]

Well, that’s one of its features. I had their setup speed as vanilla, and their hunting speed increased by 0.25x

[daring oar]

so in those cases spiders can definitely be a menace

[unreal ginkgo]

Made them a bit more of a challenge then they are already

[daring oar]

in any other scenario i think they get completely clowned on by their slow speed and straightforward behavior

[unreal ginkgo]

I feel this goes the same way if they nest inside the Factory’s maze

[daring oar]

not really

unless there's shit on the ceiling jumping over them and their webs is completely free

so you just have to be conscious of where you are

you see the webs long before you see the spider itself in most cases

and can avoid it outright if it's in a bad spot and you have no weapon

[unreal ginkgo]

The spider itself is the problem I mean

They have been usually blocking the rest of the complex off, leading to a hefty chase sequence in order to progress

[daring oar]

the maze itself usually has enough paths you can just run straight away from it and it will eventually lose interest in you

[daring oar]

this is not a very common occurrence any time i have played and is also solved by just murdering the spider

it has an extremely tiny aggro range so it would have to be directly blocking the only path to progress

or you'd have to fuck up and step inside of its web by mistake

[unreal ginkgo]

Maybe I’ve just been having bad luck, or not looking for another ways around. That’s just how it’s felt playing with my group

[daring oar]

anyways i think the spider could use some buffs but i also think it's "mostly fine"

so it is not high on my list of priorities to adjust it

but maybe in the longterm i will do something

[unreal ginkgo]

It’s more or less in the same boat with snare fleas, yeah

[daring oar]

spiders got buffed from 3 to 2 power level in v50

and that's enough of a change to make them fine

for me

to be honest they could be a 1 power level enemy and i wouldn't care that much

but i suppose it is a bit more of a roadblock than snare fleas or hoarding bugs tend to be

just because it can slow you down and get you stuck in a web if you are distracted by another enemy

which usually leads to both monsters chasing you

spiders are also a lot more punishing for mistakes than hoarding bugs or snare fleas

since they instant kill if you are not at full HP

and drop you low enough to make everything else basically instant kill

so there is way more room for error but any errors cost a lot more than most 1 power level enemies

nutcrackers are way more dangerous and they're 1 power level though, so shrug

i feel like nutcrackers make more sense as 2 power level enemies but they are most dangerous when they spawn in large groups so i think the low power level makes some sense

[marble spruce]

it fucking sucks man im ngl

like

it sucks to play with unless u turn it down a fuckton

it just spams webs everywhere and blocks off entire corridors

the web raycasting stuff is cool but idk

i feel like it should be adjusted better out the box

[unreal ginkgo]

Ya I gave the bunker spider better stats in Arachnophobia than what initially with it

It’s like if vain shrouds were cranked to 100

[daring oar]

you remind me

i wanted to make it so you could hide from enemies inside of vain shrouds

in this mod

still need to figure out if that would be "possible" and/or "easy"

because i think it would be fun

[analog cypress]

yeah, fair argument

[analog cypress]

not too much for my group tbh

i see them more like path blockers/obstacles

same with slime

They're easily avoidable

[marble spruce]

hmm

perhaps you could put a box trigger inside vain shrouds on the interactable object layer

so enemies cant see you if you're crouched in it

[daring oar]

enemies see through triggers

all enemies except nutcrackers (which i've fixed in butteryfixes and those aren't outside enemies anyway)

[marble spruce]

oh

[analog cypress]

ITP can teleport masked enemies to the facility?

[daring oar]

i dont believe so

but i could be wrong

they do hve the inverse teleport particles attached to their model

iirc

[analog cypress]

I never tried because it's too risky

but it would be strange if they're able to be teleported to the ship but weren't able to inverse teleport

[dense flicker]

Idk if I want the spider to be more dangerous 😆

I sort of see it as a lower end enemy

[naive mesa]

Like it was mentioned above you can use the Arachnophilia mod for that

Can’t tell if what you mean by that is if you want it to be buffed or stay a lower end enemy

IMO I like it as a rarer hard enemy for early game moons, like how jesters are on Titan. Of course not in the same way but still

[unreal ginkgo]

Lore-based, "rebalance", idea: Have old birds within the proximity of an aggravated old bird's lrad soundscape to turn on their spotlight, stare briefly at the aggravated old bird, then head toward the general direction they're going in

IIRC their LRADS are not only used for traumatization, but also according to their bestiary, communication, so it would make sense that they would react to their kin sounding their alarm

It's always been weird to me that an old bird sounding their alarm doesn't cause a chain reaction, or at least have other members of their kind take notice to it, even though it's probably bad balance-wise

[daring oar]

this is a late response

i forgot to say

i checked the bestiary entry again and i don't see what you are referring to

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh

Seems like I misremembered

Either that, or Zeek mentioned it in a Patreon post

I swear I remember something like that

Guess I'm wrong though

[daring oar]

i have uploaded v0.2.2

no new features this time but i fixed mech riding breaking flight mode

and i also fixed maneaters that spawn outside being unable to transform before players enter the building

since multiple custom moons have outdoor maneater spawns

[unreal ginkgo]

Could there be an option that's the reverse

Maneaters cry indoors, but don't outdoors if they happen to spawn outside

It's not necessary for this mod at all, just wondering what ur thoughts on it was since it was brought up

[daring oar]

im nearly certain mod authors that are placing maneaters outdoors are intending for them to transform

almost immediately

i just forgot that people were doing that when i blacklisted maneaters from transforming before entering the building

which would spam shit in the logs and upset the balance of those moons (only until people walked inside the building, but still)

i dont think there's much reason to implement this because i dont know anybody intending to spawn permababy maneaters outside in the first place

[unreal ginkgo]

It'd be a nice qol thing since adult maneaters are really bad outside, maybe have it off by default, but I understand why you wouldn't be interested in this since this is more of a mod thing than vanilla thing

[daring oar]

well my opinion is maneaters shouldnt be spawning outside at all

but people are doing it purposefully because that's the experience they want

on their moons

that would be broken if the maneater would act like a baby on the surface and cry when entering the building

[marble spruce]

ty for fixing mechs

[marble spruce]

shotgun no longer deals bonus damasge

[viscid edge]

you could perhaps do a rebalance to make maneaters have less charge range outside?

[dense flicker]

God that sounds awful having maneaters outside

[naive mesa]

You can bring them outside in vanilla as I’m sure you’re aware. No point in ever doing it.

||Gloom from Wesley’s moons|| can spawn maneaters outside rarely and it’s flipping terrifying

[dense flicker]

Probably why I don't use modded moons ever

They just don't have good balance compared to the ones in lethal (even if some aren't as good as others)

Thats why this mod is perfect for me

[cloud rover]

im personally a big fan of the bring back the baby mod, which lets you continue to soothe the baby when outside

there is still no point in doing it, but it's very funny to scare your friends when they see you holding a baby on the ship

also funny when said friend brings back a body, causing your fear to rise and losing your ability to soothe the baby, and then oops, there's an adult maneater on the ship

(speaking from experience)

[dense flicker]

We should be able to take the baby on the ship

And it becomes scrap and is our son

[raven patrol]

Is the indoor fog density randomizer working? Last night I was playing on my modpack with it turned on and indoor fog chance increased to 10%, but when it showed up it seemed thick as ever, with little to no changes in thickness being apparent. Maybe it just does not nerf the fog as much as I thought

[daring oar]

at its lowest it is the same as before

at its highest it is twice as thin

i am not aware of it not working

[raven patrol]

Hmm, I guess even at around half strength it still is very impactful. I guess the fog I had in mind would land around 30-50% strength, you cannot see the distance but can navigate your tile just fine. Thanks for clarifying

[dense flicker]

Would there be a way to make it so jesters don't appear until a bit later in the day? Friend of mine was complaining about them recently

[raven patrol]

You can lower their spawn weight using LLL or a similar mod, so they on average take more spawn waves to roll their odds. Otherwise yeah Buttery would need to modify their spawn curve

[dense flicker]

Its not the spawn as much as it is having it happen later

[dense flicker]

Oh well it's not that big a deal lol

[daring oar]

jester does have a spawn curve

it has lower chance earlier in the day which increases later in the day

i forget the numbers though

[unreal ginkgo]

Wtf

I never knew this

What entities have a unique spawn curve?

[dense flicker]

Oh huh

So maybe we just get super unlucky lmao

[marble spruce]

yes? lol

for ages ive explained that clay surgeon overhaul modifies the spawn curve of clay surgeons

[unreal ginkgo]

No, I’m asking, which entities do?

[marble spruce]

every one??

[unreal ginkgo]

What the fuck

Every entity has a unique falloff?

[marble spruce]

yup

[unreal ginkgo]

I never knew this. I’ve just been told that it’s nutcrackers, barbers, ghost girls, and masked that have them

[marble spruce]

well

its possible that some entities can have a flat spawn curve

i havent looked through them all

but they all have a curve value

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh yeah I know that, but I’m asking which ones aren’t flat

[dense flicker]

Now i want a graph lol

[unreal ginkgo]

Same, if anybody is willing to do it

It’d be helpful in modpack creation

[dense flicker]

Is there an equation used, bet it could be plotted

[daring oar]

most enemies do

yeah

jester has ~80% spawn rate at the start of the day which increases to 100% by midnight

[daring oar]

this is different

nutcrackers and masked have a "number falloff curve"

which changes their spawn rate as more of them spawn

all enemies have a "spawn chance throughout day" curve that is separate

for most enemies both curves are flat

nutcrackers have a flat hourly spawn rate (100% at 6 AM, 100% at midnight) but their spawn chance increases as more nutcrackers spawn

until it starts to flatten out again once 8 (7?) total have spawned

masked are similar but not identical (im not sure if he set up the curve both times, or if masked just inherit from an earlier version of the nutcracker enemy type, since we know they are derived from nutcrackers)

barbers have no number falloff curve but their spawn chance decreases from 100% at 6 AM to 0% at midnight

so you are most likely to get one earlier in the day

ghost girl has a spawn chance curve but it is nearly meaningless

it's like 96% spawn chance at 6 AM and 100% by 7 or 9

[dense flicker]

When you say 80%, is that like....a multiplier of sorts

[daring oar]

yes

[dense flicker]

Aww 1a3s lethal company thing isn't there anymore

I was gonna use that as an example of spawns and such

But gotcha

[daring oar]

the lethal wiki is more or less accurate on spawn chances

i havent noticed any discrepancies the times i've checked in on it

[dense flicker]

Ehhh I just hate using fandom wiki

[dry current]

the devious 9am jester

[dense flicker]

Story of my life

[civic parrot]

Does the mod make mask hornets not open doors??

[marble spruce]

probably not bc buttery is silly but theres a standalone mod for that

https://thunderstore.io/c/lethal-company/p/necrowing/StopBeesOpeningDoors/

[civic parrot]

Oh yeah I was just not sure since I remember reading about that but it might be me misremembering

[marble spruce]

well

[civic parrot]

As I thought it had that built in stead of using that mod

[marble spruce]

her stance could have changed

but iirc she doesnt mind that they can open doors

ill check rq

just in case

butterybalance does not patch bee ai

so

it does add circuit bees to offense tho

[civic parrot]

Ah okay

As I remember it being that but as said might be me misremembering or it being removed early on

[daring oar]

i dont patch mask hornets at this point in time and i dont like just locking them behind doors as counterplay

[raven patrol]

Mask Hornets are not that much of a threat imo, they are relatively slow and loose track of players quickly

Just lead them away a little from Butler corpses and you have the knife easy

[dense flicker]

How does a hornet open a door 🤔

[vapid pier]

the power of friendship

[raven patrol]

The all land on the handle and collectively work to turn the mechanism to open the door

[vague pewter]

Hey Buttery I saw you were working on a patch for the fire exits in one of the other threads, is that real? Is that soon? Not to rush you haha just wondering hahah haha.... ||these fire exits got me pulling my hair out is all||

[cloud rover]

whats wrong with fire exits?

[marble spruce]

#1308174824505479290 message

[marble spruce]

some mod.. ig... is causing fire exit mismatch so when you go through a fire exit and come back out you're at a different one

[cloud rover]

ah, I have noticed that happen before

[marble spruce]

idk

i still have doubts that some mod is explicitly causing it but i dont know any better than these eggheads do

ig its dungenplus

i dont know

it just seems strange to me

[civic parrot]

Wait so if I had LCoffice with rebalanced moons, it would be bugged?

[ebon sandal]

It's not LCOffice

[civic parrot]

Ah

[ebon sandal]

It's the combination of LLL, JLL and DunGenPlus that increases the chances of ocurring

[civic parrot]

Well I have all those-

[ebon sandal]

reason of why a patch is being made :]

[civic parrot]

Makes me glad I actually installed LCoffice separately on a test profile

[ebon sandal]

again, the issue is not LCOffice lol

[civic parrot]

Oh

I know it's just that LCoffice requires dungenplus

[marble spruce]

office added dg+ as a dependency recently

so it could cause it to start happening for users yes

[ebon sandal]

oof

[civic parrot]

Yea that's what I was saying

As it just got updated to be improved

Like today

[raven patrol]

Right next to the ship too, they are ready to kick your butt as a pair

[civic parrot]

https://tenor.com/view/twins-spongebob-patrick-star-spongebob-squarepants-wow-gif-17867058

[dense flicker]

Robot centipede

[marble spruce]

they tried to spawn inside spawn blockers i guess

i hate how that works, would be cool if it randomized the search each time

[proven delta]

does revisit stingers apply to modded ones if they add them

[civic parrot]

Yea-

like stingers from generic interiors

[daring oar]

im pretty sure LLL fixed this

ive heard stingers on wesley's interiors for example

but anyways i dont have any code prohibiting modded stingers from working but im not expressly designing it for compatibility

[vapid pier]

pretty sure bc they did custom stuff lol

[daring oar]

maybe

[civic parrot]

though is the stinger tweaks compatible with the dynamic interiors mod I guess?

[daring oar]

depends how batby implemented it

[civic parrot]

Ah makes sense

[dry current]

those are put in artificially

generic's does this thing where there's a trigger in front of the main entrance door where once per round it rolls a chance for it to play a sound effect locally

which is why you can get it on storehouse if you enter through a fire exit and leave through main

[daring oar]

i see

[signal stream]

When I touched it I put them in the right spot but they will still only play once per general save + I don’t recall if the interior audio injection thing zeekerss added for mineshaft goofed anything up

[shut torrent]

Is this mod still getting updated by chance? I haven't kept track of the lethal modding scene as of late

[daring oar]

it is still being supported

i have not been adding new features to it because i havent been playing lethal company recently

none of my friends are playing

[karmic cloak]

Not sure whether u ended up finding it but it still exists just at a different path - https://1a3.uk/games/lethal-company/diffs

[dense flicker]

Oh I'm blind af

Its mobile too so I didn't see it properly until now

Also i forgot I said that lol

But thanks for pointing it out

[karmic cloak]

Yeah the navbar is a bit shit on mobile tbf

But idk how to rly improve it cuz there's not much space 🤷‍♂️

[crude pier]

wtf this is amazing

[dry current]

the fuck, is this real?

that's whack ive never seen that

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh shit

It’s a restored behavior from the eyeless dogs that was cut in v50

I’ve got to see this

[dry current]

no this is from v50

like v50 beta 1

[dry current]

im reading this

it's patchnotes for each version I think? idk if it has a diff purpose but thats what im looking at rn

[civic parrot]

oh wait it isn't some new feature???

for another update???

[dry current]

nah like i said im just reading patch notes from old versions

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh what the fuck

It wasn’t unused? It literally got cut from the beta?

[dry current]

it apparently? was in a beta? atleast from what im reading

i didn't catch where it was removed, if that is included in any changelog

or if it was removed even, though I suppose it was

didn't know rend and dine were once smaller, never really noticed the size change

this explains some outdated wikis still listing this as the nut's entry

[unreal ginkgo]

This is still fucking stupid and Idk why Zeekerss did this

[dry current]

whatever reason he had it allows nuts and barbers to fit in properly in me lore

[civic parrot]

https://tenor.com/view/fna-fnaf-scott-cawthon-all-your-theories-are-wrong-gif-14805434331413338057

[daring oar]

no this isnt anything

zeekerss added this functionality to the dogs but it was used for the old bird's "sound cannon"

dogs would cower on the flor when hearing it

except he either never finished hooking that behavior up or removed it before release

like how he removed the sound cannon deafening players

idk where the myth started that it was related to explosions

[dry current]

i guess "loud blast" could be tied to the sound cannons

[dry current]

this is from 1A3's thingy right here

[daring oar]

also this change was made because in v50 he made manors generate with size divided by 1.5

[dry current]

from the v50 beta 1 patch notes

[daring oar]

rend was increased from 1.2 to 1.8 (1.5x), but then manors divide it by 1.5x again and it's the same size

dine was shrunk though, because it should have been 1.95x to maintain the same size

the main reason the change was made though was just because titan manors were enormous

its base size multiplier was reduced from 2.35x to 2.2x which made all interiors smaller

and then manors had the additional 1.5x divisor

[dry current]

yea i remember people complaining about manor titan

[dry current]

gooootcha, that checks out

[raven patrol]

I saw some mention that Dogs has the animation added during a beta but never anything on it actually occurring in-game

[raven patrol]

All we need now is for Mineshaft to have it too 🙏

[daring oar]

the animation was added in v50 but by the time the first beta released no code existed to trigger it

[daring oar]

mineshafts are actually divided by 0.9x

which causes their size to increase

Lol

[karmic cloak]

i still miss https://i.gyazo.com/a0f162c8263be5c95ec751cb2e5d6a3f.png

😦

cuz i found a fix for the bug that caused it to be removed a day after the bug was found but he never re-added it

[daring oar]

i added it back in this mod

actually

lol

i do hope he reintegrates it into basegame eventually

[karmic cloak]

did u do the fix as well?

as in #1281728554975100988 message

cuz if not I'd definitely suggest doing it so people don't experience #974101195545280542 message

[daring oar]

i didnt need to

i added the physics trigger in start() after it fetches the renderers

[karmic cloak]

ah

[daring oar]

but i was aware of the bug yeah

[karmic cloak]

niceeee

[raven patrol]

😭

[unreal ginkgo]

I'M SORRY?

TrollStop

[dry current]

based?

[daring oar]

it is probably because the cave tiles are really tiny

most of them are, anyway

there is still a really obvious general trend that mineshafts are way bigger than factories or manors

both in terms of volume and dimensions

so if he was trying to balance them out he definitely would have increased the divisor

i think he probably just
A. didn't spend a lot of time comparing it to the other interiors and making adjustments (maybe no time at all)
B. intentionally wants mineshafts to be huge

hard to say for sure

[dense flicker]

Considering the way zeekers does things, it's definitely a.

[raven patrol]

Either way this is not the way it should be imo, Mineshaft is nearly unplayable on dungeon size 2.0 or higher, especially if the moon has lots of traps (Titan moment)

[dense flicker]

I find this mod does a good job of making it tolerable

[civic parrot]

question:

what weight are the earth liviathans on Rend?

[civic parrot]

As I wanna swap the weights for the keepers and worms

[raven patrol]

Ever since v55 worms have had 0 weight, so you will be removing Giants and having Worms be the secondary spawn

[civic parrot]

AH okay so rn it's just not spawning the worms at all

??

[raven patrol]

This mod does have a setting to restore the worms

Assuming Buttery wants to achieve the pre-v55 spawns, Worms probably are added with weight 18

[civic parrot]

ah okay

[raven patrol]

So v69 Rend with BRB changes is:
Giant - 60 weight
Dog - 74 weight
Worm - 18 weight

If you wanna swap stuff there you go

[civic parrot]

oh thanks!

[raven patrol]

NP, hopefully I got my facts right

[daring oar]

everything ANN said was correct

[raven patrol]

Epic

[shut torrent]

@daring oar Quick question: would you consider adjusting some of the scrap prices like you did with the item weights? the scrap weight changes you made were really cool and I'd love to see your take on how some items should be priced

[marble spruce]

she already kinda did that

to some items

like the metal sheet costs more

[daring oar]

the metal sheet is like genuinely awful

so i decreased its weight and increased its price a bit

it's still not good but it's at least not "terrible enough it's always worth leaving behind"

i dont have any specific ideas in mind for rebalancing other scrap prices because generally speaking i think they are okay

most of the weight changes were also recommendations from leafar, i just went through each of them and agreed because they are good

[raven patrol]

Only thing I can think of are some Manor scrap like Pill Bottle and Toothpaste not being worth all that much, but I feel like that is intentional to give Manors bad scrap while still making them feel different than Factories

[dense flicker]

If we see metal sheets, we ignore them

Mod makes it better but

I tend to go for the better scroop

[marble spruce]

i feel like thats kinda the point anyways

not every spawned scrap should be valuable realistically

[civic parrot]

Yea-

Like I love the vending machine mod and not like the gambling mod as it's a risk/reward situation -

The lesser scrap you sell, the more likely you'll die

[dense flicker]

True, but I think this mod improves it

Without going too crazy

[wind spoke]

I think pill bottle would be interesting if it was more like the rubber ducky's amount (as in highly varied)

because it would make sense that random pills could be both basically trash and highly expensive

[raven patrol]

That is how I see it too. We hate Metal Sheet and Yield Sign but you need the bad to make the good feel good

[marble spruce]

"I take the good with the bad"

[raven patrol]

Indeed. In Arduous Hardships, Purple nerfed the weight of a lot of lower value scraps so that only stuff like Cash Registers were very heavy. While it is better for gameplay, especially in a modpack like AH, all the scraps kinda blend together a bit

Compare this to my modpack where we found a Cement Bag weighing 50lb and was worth 14c, and besides me wanted to just leave it behind. We are not the same

[proven delta]

Hey just wondering if you would be up for a simple mod commission

just a mod that lets you change LOD levels

[daring oar]

change LOD levels how

you mean just like how HDLC lets you set an LOD bias?

[proven delta]

yeah, I want to stop stuff like leaves, rocks and grass from really only appearing when you are super close

HDLC conflicts with certain mods even with the patch soo id rather not touch that one haha

[daring oar]

it probably wouldnt be very difficult

ive been on a bit of a hiatus from LC recently

unfortunately i am motivated most by my desire to play with the stuff im working on

so when my friends aren't playing my motivation is also pretty shot

but i think i could knock this out sort of quickly

at least

[proven delta]

ive heard, xu just mentioned you might be up for it since its realativly simple

and as I said id give some $ to sweeten the deal hehe

[daring oar]

lol

that's very kind but i dont have any sort of donation page set up anyhow

and it's such a simple ask it's not even demanding of a price imo

[proven delta]

no offense but I also like to pay bc it usually ensures it gets finished compared to just asking a modder hahaha'

too bad tho id throw a dono your way either way for the awesome mods you made

[daring oar]

maybe one of these days

i have a tendency to be kind of stubborn about what i spend my time doing, and i think if you're accepting donations, that's not exactly courteous

maybe that's a selfish way to look at it

i dunno

[proven delta]

either way hope to see it happen

[daring oar]

yeah i will work on it

[proven delta]

https://tenor.com/view/dancing-cat-dance-cat-cat-meme-chinese-cat-gif-12629347036627000898

[daring oar]

@proven delta i see batby helped you already

cheers

Lol

[proven delta]

yeah I didnt expect it haha

[daring oar]

it's good you're set now, though

hooray

[dense flicker]

Hopefully with the eventual update your friends will be motivated to play

Or that the very least the mod will update 😆

This mod is a need for me

[daring oar]

oh im sure

i dont think they lost interest in the game

they are just burnt out from lack of new sights to see

i tend to have an unusual amount of energy for replaying stuff beyond a reasonable timeframe

Lol

[dense flicker]

We've been trying some other moons and interiors lately

Some are neat....some are kinda annoying and unfun

Like they make a gorgeous moon, but they forget that we are collecting scrap

And make it soooooo long or twisted

[daring oar]

yeah i wouldnt mind exploring some modded content

but unfortunately the two groups i play with each have one player with really shitty hardware

[dense flicker]

They could require the cruiser, but still

Oof

[daring oar]

so they'd have to get left out if we were playing with content mods

and that sucks

the recent lethallevelloader update helped a lot with one of them

they got a lot better performance

but we had to spend like an extra minute every time we went to orbit, routed the moon, landed, etc. so it was still far from feasible

the other one would crash every time they launched if they tried to load mods LOL

they just dont have enough resources to support anything beyond what they already use to play

sometimes they blue screen in the middle of games already so it's major yikes

[dense flicker]

We got a lot of mods and there's always something being messed up

We have a weird one where people show up as "nameless" and their pfp isn't showing

BTW I did have a question a long time ago about the apparatus and changing that value range

We've had some incredibly unlucky rolls lately lol

And we have the escape mod so it almost seems like it's not worth getting half the time 😆

[daring oar]

maybe i will make the value ranges configurable at some point

for the apparatus, i just went with the unused $40-119 range in the files

but then i saw that it was $130 in v9

and boosted the max to 130 to try and escalate the trend a bit more

IIRC factory escape increases the apparatus value on its own, so having my setting enabled is probably just overriding that behavior and causing it to be significantly lower than intended

[crude pier]

I feel like the apparatus has a terrible price considering it removes power from the facility when you take it

[daring oar]

in my eyes it's "pretty okay"

the penalty of no lights + extra monsters adds some strategy in that you'd want to unplug it as late as you can get away with, generally

and while $80 avg is not incredible, that's still an extra scrap item you wouldnt get in other interior types

and $80 is pretty solid up until you reach the tier 3s anyhow

most tier 1 and 2 loot caps out around the high 50s

and a lot of it is more like $30 avg

[crude pier]

Hmmm maybe it would be nice if it had its price increased on the later moons so there still a reason to go looking for it (if you get the facility)

[dense flicker]

Thats why we added the factory escape

But yeah if there can be configuration that would be cool

[crude pier]

And the higher risk that is involved with taking it out on higher moons

[dense flicker]

Might suggest to my friend to turn it off

[crude pier]

I would add it but it seems super overkill and afaik doesn’t increase the apparatus’ price
Though maybe it does, haven’t seen its config yet

It would be fun to have an Apparatus run only gamemode (with mods) where your main objective is to successfully find and extract the apparatus

[dense flicker]

Oh god, imagine doing that on titan

[daring oar]

my friends and i have this weird modded gamemode we came up with called "shotgun company"

the tldr is taht everyone has shotguns and ammo and tons of inventory

all scrap is weightless and one-handed

but monster spawns are cranked up a ton and quotas are huge

[daring oar]

anyways for the mod i made the apparatus start at like $500

and it's the only scrap with weight + it's actually 2 handed

and then if you take damage or leave it sitting on the floor

it bleeds value

until you return it to the ship

so it's like a little "final objective" holdout type deal

it's kind of fun

i wouldnt call the mod particularly polished because it's something we homebrewed over the course of a couple days and just fuck around with on occasion

but i could maybe rip out some of the guts of that and repurpose them in something else

[dense flicker]

That sounds entertaining

[viscid edge]

that sounds like a fun gamemode you oughta release that at some point

[dry current]

i love me some good gamemode modpacks

[marble spruce]

I want a burger

[runic cobalt]

:<

now i want a burger

[marble spruce]

I would lowk get a burger w you

You pay tab though

I'm unemployed

[runic cobalt]

im unemployed but im used to paying for burgers when me and my friends go out lol

[dense flicker]

I can buy ya a burger

I had In n out amd thats the only burger I actually like

[naive mesa]

Hot take but hot dogs are better than burgers

[raven patrol]

Depends on the context imo

[dense flicker]

Tbh, I'm inclined to agree mainly because I don't like burgers

[unreal ginkgo]

What's the min max prices of the double-barrel?

[daring oar]

25 minimum 89 maximum

[unreal ginkgo]

Doesn't matter now since I decided that I'm not using the Phantom Piper, but thank u regardless

[balmy pier]

well the phantom piper's escort's shotgun value range is separate

its configurable by itself also

[daring oar]

@dense flicker im unlikely to change the bird right now

[dense flicker]

How the hell did i not see this

[daring oar]

the update has been out for one day and im not convinced it is a problem at this point in time

after it has some time to settle i might tweak it a bit

the next update will most likely just be v70 compatibility

[dense flicker]

My only thought was making the eggs not hatch so quickly

Everything else is fine

[daring oar]

for example my tzp patch does not work anymore

but is also unnecessary because he buffed base TZP a lot

my buff was 22s -> 34s

vanilla is 38s now

etc.

[dense flicker]

Yeah thats insane

And good

Idk bird doesnt seem worth messing with

Which is kinda lame

[daring oar]

maybe

i don't think killing it with cruiser is that inconsistent

at least as of yet

cruiser also makes transporting all the eggs really easy

i think, ideally, i would like to add a way for players to sneak off with single eggs from the nest

if that is not already consistently possible in vanilla

so killing it is not the only option to maximize the loot

i might also buff the egg prices in general

when the nest is within 120m of the ship the egg prices are pretty bad

if they spawn far from the ship and you hoover them all up with cruiser, it's a pretty good payday

but that's not going to happen super consistently with the bird, probs

[dense flicker]

There is a way to do that when it sleeps, its just when the egg hatches that you are screwed

Ive been nearly successful

Also yes the egg prices being more would be worth it

[raven patrol]

Apparently the bird is awoken by sound, and the eggs trigger it by hatching shortly after being stolen. Maybe the bird cannot hear the eggs globally

[raven patrol]

The thing is that apparently the Cruiser no longer instant kills enemies, it just does 12 damage with a full ram. Bird has 28 health so it would need 3 hits, not inconsistent but would need some faffing around

[balmy pier]

if i had to make a suggestion

adding the sapsucker to the spawns of march and artifice would be neat

march especially makes no sense for the sapsucker to just not be there

[raven patrol]

Maybe it only being on a couple moons was on purpose, I hear its AI is a bit buggy

[daring oar]

i do wish it was on artifice because right now it doesnt spawn on any of the endgame moons which really limits its ability to be present in the overall game

also artifice feels best to me as the "melting pot" where everything spawns

since it's the final moon, anyway

i probably wont add it to march

i like that it's so uncommon because it helps each moon's environment stand out

[dense flicker]

I do agree artifice makes sense

march meh

[raven patrol]

On March it will probably spawn on some far flung AI node you would have to go out of your way to find anyway

[dense flicker]

So i realize now why its not on artifice

The old birds would just kill it, and itd be free money 😆

[daring oar]

i guess i wasnt thinking about that

[dense flicker]

I didn't either until I just thought about it

[raven patrol]

Jury might be out on that actually (though maybe the collapsed bridge is just bugging their AI)

[dense flicker]

Oh no lmao

When an unstoppable force meets an immovable object

[balmy pier]

well, good thing i made artifice not spawn old birds, i guess

[dense flicker]

Well wheres the fun in that

[balmy pier]

honestly artifice is more interesting without them

they make sense to be there in vanilla, but ive always found the occasional lack of them on artifice to be harder to play

[raven patrol]

Well yeah, them killing all the Giants and Dogs makes our life easier

[obtuse wave]

imo he could make so that if the sapsucker saw an old bird it would grab his nest and move it away from said old bird

[dense flicker]

Thst would be great lol

Nope nope nope

[viscid edge]

making stun grenades stun the sapsucker for much longer could be an interesting balance change, so waiting for it to sleep isn't the ONLY way to steal from it without killing it

[balmy pier]

honestly id rather have a stun game multiplier nerf if one of the two were to be altered

the sapsuckers is x1.6, the highest of any monster, and it is nion impossible to maintain the beam for any longer than like 5 seconds

it would give the zap gun an actual good use and be a good fair way to make the sapsucker a possible thing to consider killing

i wouldnt want it toned down too much, x1.1 is probably fine

[daring oar]

i probably lean more towards making the zap gun usable against it yes

i think stun grenades would be a little too easy and effective against the bird

[balmy pier]

if that sounds too little, it genuinely is not
try maintaining the beam on a barber vs a jester (x0.8 vs x1)

the small difference matters a lot in that number

[daring oar]

although regardless of the method you use to stun it, it unleashes hell once it's free

so we will have to see how that shakes out

zeekerss just released the v70 patreon post and already mentioned plans for some changes to the bird

so i wont be touching it until those are done and dealt with, in any case

[dense flicker]

Wait the zap gun didn't work before

[balmy pier]

"usable" as in the stun game multiplier is too high to actually reasonably do anything with the zap gun to it

[daring oar]

some bird damage bugs were fixed in v71 and egg price buffed

still wont be touching it for a little while, in case these changes still arent final

but already we are seeing improvements on the vanilla side of things

[raven patrol]

Where did get this information? I have been having trouble getting technical changelogs of v70+, it would be nice to see them for myself

[daring oar]

i just dump the code and look at it myself

1a3 will make a detailed changelog in the morning

i assume

[raven patrol]

I do know about 1a3’s website, just wondering if there was anything else

[dense flicker]

I'm really surprised nothing was made in the patch notes

Thats a pretty big deal imo

Although still not enticing enough to go for lol

Maybe if we can stunlock it

Although that is still someone sacrificing themselves

[balmy pier]

the only sensible way to do that is being a god at using the zap gun

which is no one

[dense flicker]

Not to mention you gonna lose that gun

[daring oar]

0.2.3 is out

just small fixes, no features for now still

[jagged nexus]

@daring oar I think the Rare mineshafts setting for Rend might be redundant now

Zeekerss lowered it in v71 to be much lower

So you could probably safely remove this

[daring oar]

mineshaft weight was 50 for rend in v69

it was decreased to 28 in v71

my mod reduced it to 14

[jagged nexus]

Ah

28 is still so rare I will personally not keep that on anymore

Did he change the size of the interior size on March at all btw?

it felt significantly less bad when I played Vanilla v70

but it might have just been the nostalgia of playing purely vanilla

I also feel Adamance doesn't feel as bad in terms of the chaos lol

[daring oar]

@jagged nexus almost nothing changed for any of the moons

assurance indoor spawn rates were made a lot more variable (higher chance of large spawn groups, higher chance of prolonged days where nothing spawns)

[jagged nexus]

Ahhhh

[daring oar]

v71 increased the sapsucker spawn rate on vow

[daring oar]

zed dog was made more frequent on vow and rend (and is supposed to be additionally escalated for all other moons, but that did not happen due to a bug)

and v71 reduced mineshaft rate on rend

outside of that basically nothing else changed

march is completely identical to v69

no support for manor, no sapsucker, no changes to factory or its stats

[dense flicker]

Yeah i want rend to be primarily mansion

Mineshaft is artifice

[analog cypress]

could we have snowman back

[daring oar]

i plan to add snowmen back yes

[analog cypress]

dancingtenna

[raven patrol]

Custom Outside Objects has snowmen, and its are better imo since they can be destroyed by the cruiser, which I think makes sense

[daring oar]

zeekerss made snowmen destructible by cruiser in v70

before they were removed

lol

not sure what the thought process is there

[runic cobalt]

they're probably still stored for him in his project so i assume he'll bring em back christmas time

well they're still in teh game files so i feel like that's probably why

[analog cypress]

i know, i just didn't want to add mods required by all clients to my modpack for something so small

wth, another Zeekerss moment 😭

good to know they're now destructible at least

it's unfair that snowmen from christmas got removed but the pumpkin from halloween didn't

[raven patrol]

The game does have a general spooky tone tbf, Halloween is baked into it a bit

[daring oar]

snowmen dont spawn serverside

any mod that restores the snowmen is going to have to be all clients

[daring oar]

im not sure where though

the prefabs still exist in rips and stuff

which means they are referenced somewhere

but i'd need to find them to add them back to the spawn lists

oh duh-doy it's in the TestAllEnemiesLevel

[runic cobalt]

yea

[marble spruce]

yes

he added snowmen to that level on the update that added them

and never removed it

[wind spoke]

An idea that I think would fit for this mod is having the Facecam for the masked instead be a still image of the player before they put it on

[naive mesa]

Probably better for mirage

[wind spoke]

maybe

[daring oar]

i think mimics are already extremely unconvincing on the map radar so i probably wont bother with implementing this

right now all the facecams render to the same rendertexture

so i'd have to register a new render texture for each facecam and then swap them on the monitor depending on who you are observing

so that i could selectively stop updating a render texture for a player that gets masked

and even after all of that, it's just going to change the tell from "they are wearing a mask" to "they are not moving on the camera"

[analog cypress]

Can we have Sapsucker on March

[daring oar]

i dont want it on march

[dense flicker]

What about April?

[wind spoke]

yeah thats fair I was just thinking it would be cool if it was harder to tell

and the ship person could possibly not notice if they're flipping through the cams

[dense flicker]

We've had some pretty fun interactions with masked enemies and mods

They'll legit hid their face

[shut torrent]

@daring oar Sorry to bother you. Are there any plans to include a balance change that returns the cruisers ramming damage to it's original value before the v70s?

[daring oar]

i am considering it

cruiser is really OP right now

[crude pier]

it got buffed?

[marble spruce]

yes

[jagged nexus]

It's basically invulnerable now

I would imagine cus weedkiller stopped being used as much after the removal of the fox

[unreal ginkgo]

What

Wouldn't this make it worse, since there would be no real incentive to heal your truck because it's almost indestructible

[jagged nexus]

Precisely, High Quota players were mainly using it for the boost mechanic not really healing it

Which is understandable cus Weed Killer doesn't last long enough and noone wants to keep buying it

[unreal ginkgo]

Kinda removes what makes the car a little more complex to use, which is sad

It's basically an outdoor skip at this point

[jagged nexus]

We don't really know why Zeekerss buffed it but I'm not complaining

I never liked how weak the cruiser was tbh

[dense flicker]

Cruiser was kinda crap for my group so avoided using it for the most part

We would use it for artifice but even then it got blown up all the time

[daring oar]

yeah it got a lot of handling buffs

it now gets a mini turbo boost the first time you use the pedals after switching gears

which i am neither for or against

it kind of messes with my muscle memory but it's pretty minor

i swear it feels a lot faster in this update though and that is kind of messing with me

the biggest change is durability though

the cruiser's passive regen got a massive buff

it could previously recover 1 HP every 16 seconds up to a maximum of 7 (30 is the total HP for context)

so if you ever set the car on fire you could bail out and let it be for a while and it would be usable again

now it recovers HP every 5 seconds up to a maximum of 25

so basically unless it gets completely smashed in one go there is virtually no possibility of it getting destroyed at all

and almost every source of damage to the cruiser was reduced or removed completely

just as a litmus test i drove it recklessly through vow

going at like full speed, smashing every single tree in the path, dumped it off the cliff face into the valley

and somehow it didn't take any damage from doing that

it was still at full

i havent checked under the hood after using it to kill enemies, but if that's not enough to destroy the new cruiser, im pretty sure nothing is enough to destroy the new cruiser

[dry current]

oh yeah I like smashed the car into the side of a utility pole and the artifice pit and it was full HP

it's a lil strong

I think he overbuffed it a lil

just reducing the damage it took from certain sources woulda made it more beginner friendly already, cuz ig that's what he was going for

[dry current]

an old bird, a dog and a giant rammed the cruiser for like 2 straight minutes last session I played and I don't think it was damaged much

[crude pier]

Wow it got an insane buff what the heck

I noticed the weird gear shift boot thing but other than that

I had no idea it got buffed that much

Guess this is the perfect time to learn some cruiser jumps :3

I really liked how fragile it was before hand

I think the HP regen buff would be nice if it wasn’t as extreme, but that’s it

[raven patrol]

I am surprised the Cruiser got buffed, I thought a good chunk of the community knew it was very powerful if you took 15 minutes to learn the controls. Almost every moon has some sort of cruiser strat that does not even need Weedkiller, you can just maneuver it to an entrance. I also thought the Cruiser was kinda meant to be scuffed, like the v69 strats were already beyond what it was meant to do

I guess noobs can enjoy it too now, though instant-killing Giants will be missed

[jagged nexus]

@daring oar Curious does the Cruiser even take damage to anything anymore?

[jagged nexus]

I think you still can if you get enough speed

[daring oar]

@jagged nexus yes but it was sharply reduced

for example, cruiser used to take 2 damage when crashing into any enemy

unless that enemy was instantly killed

now it only takes 1 damage and only if the enemy is "giant"

which iirc is just old birds and forest keepers

also high speed impacts that used to deal 6 damage now dela 2

[visual whale]

im also of the opinion that a more fragile but deadlier cruiser is better than a more durable but less deadly one

[dry current]

last convo was exactly about this ye

[daring oar]

yeah the handling improvements are kind of nice

i could take them or leave them

i didnt really mind it before

but im definitely not a fan of all the changes to durability and damage

it's nice that it's so easy and accessible to folks now but it feels super OP

the damage nerf also feels pretty bad and doesnt make a ton of sense except in the context of the sapsucker i guess

which might be the reason he changed it

but not instakilling giants is a massive loss

[visual whale]

I'd be fine with the sapsucker having some kind of damage resistance like the maneater tbh, makes some sense in the context of an enemy you dont strictly need to fight

[dry current]

shoulda just written it so it takes less damage from the cruiser specifically or smth then :P

[raven patrol]

I heard it does max 12 damage per hit, meaning 3 hits are needed to kill a Giant

[daring oar]

well the maneater's specific damage resistance wouldnt work in this case

because the cruiser instakilled enemies, and it could do so to outdoor maneaters even in v69

now the instakill function was replaced with a 12 damage hit

so it cant instant kill the maneater either

if you mean principally though, then yeah

i wouldnt mind if the sapsucker just had some weird flat cruiser kill resistance

[visual whale]

interesting, yeah I guess the damage could just be increased to be an effective instant-kill instead of a literal one, lots of possible implementations though

[daring oar]

yeah that would probably be fine

although it would mean the maneater is no longer instant death

unless a special case was added for it

which could be done

zeekerss added the capability for "damage types" to be defined on hit

and it is exclusively used for the knife so it can instant kill butlers

lol

[visual whale]

I'd be fine with that imo, based on everything else it seems like the cruiser killing the maneater is more of an oversight than anything, but not sure how popular of a meta that is, usually I just avoid the maneater transforming at all

[daring oar]

it is definitely not meta but i do like that there is at least one consistent way to insta it

it's also a decent risk because maneater gets superpowers outside

[raven patrol]

I mean the meta is cheesing Maneater by putting it inside a wall and then slamming your five hits before its teleport timer elapses

People also have strats of killing it without cheese too, we have come a long ways

[dense flicker]

Its called "taking responsibility and raising your son"

[shut torrent]

Yeah but that's boring

Why take care of the baby when I can pommel it to death with my shovel

Maybe in a pacifist run I suppose

[raven patrol]

Nah, we here at the company endorse child abuse

[balmy pier]

this is probably not possible but a friend randomly suggested it
if you successfully kill a maneater, it regurgitates whatever it ate, and you can then take them back from it

[daring oar]

items get completely despawned when a maneater eats them

i might be able to hack something together for this but we will see

[viscid edge]

can you make the maneater explode like the cruiser when you kill it

[cloud rover]

can you make the maneater grow into an even bigger maneater when you kill it

[raven patrol]

Narpy would like that

[marble spruce]

can you tie c4 to the bracken for april fools

[runic cobalt]

Can we tie c4 onto dopa until the next April fools

[runic cobalt]

Killing the moonlord with this one...

[cloud rover]

Can't wait for the terraria + lethal company collab once they star working on the final final final final final update

[rain moat]

yo? actually? thatd be fucking fire though

i would not mind seeing the nutcracker fire his shotgun in the frost moon

[daring oar]

62346940

awful march seed

lights off, turret spam, nutcracker spawns mid day (???)

dog at the ship

we had it storym

worst march game ive EVER PLAYED!!

[jagged nexus]

@daring oar Do your infestations work? Cus I've played several hours with the mod installed and don't think I've ever seen them work tbh

I think I last saw Butler and Barber ones work on V69, I haven't seen any of them occur on V70+

and I've never seen a masked one happen

[daring oar]

nothing about infestations changed in v70

and nothing about my implementation should have changed either

i've seen infestations while using my mod in v70+

i dont check the spawn list in actual games but it feels like they work as they are supposed to

[crude pier]

I'm not sure if this would be a buttery fixes change or chameleon change, but I think it would be nice if the no signal screen showed up when someone had died (can't remember if this is a thing or not, but afaik it only happens inside of caves)

it would also be kinda nice if there was an option to disable the no signal screen for caves because I think that kinda makes the cave tileset worse for no real reason. (to me) It doesn't make sense how a signal can reach through a giant concrete building but not a cave

[daring oar]

i did think about adding a change for "no signal" to display when a body gets destroyed

such as when you're eaten by a giant

the vanilla logic is so buggy though that i wound up throwing it out and completely remaking it in the butteryfixes v70 patch

[raven patrol]

I am gonna make my case now, I think this mod should have a feature that disables the “no signal” effect when in Mineshaft caves, or offer some sort of other bypass like using Radar Boosters.

Before this Mineshaft was already the hardest interior, even with the size nerf this mod provides. It is comparatively slower to loot, with the elevator slowing down main and loot mainly appearing deep within it in the caves. It is the hardest to navigate since the tiles blend together, and traps being clustered in the facility portions leads to inevitable choke points. And finally, even with several patches it is still buggy, with out-of-bounds loot and janky geometry that players get caught on. I am fine with this, but it of course means I am baffled at this latest change.

The radar facelift seemed like it was meant to buff the at-this-point neglected game feature, with the entrance line and key icons, only for this to also be added, and added the interior that needs a nerf the least. The radar is very powerful but also very hard to use, outright disabling it entirely for some of the already hardest moons (Dine, Titan, and Artifice have large Mineshaft odds) just hurts this game’s strategy in my humble opinion. That will be all, ramble over.

[daring oar]

i think it was a last minute addition to hide some ugly clipping issues with the caverns

sometimes the player's sprite is hidden by the sprites of the cavern tiles

there are obvious seams where tiles do/don't exist

etc.

it felt like it was definitely implemented very last minute

at least

it was super buggy in the v70 release

i kinda just assumed it's a temporary stopgap until he reworks mineshafts in v75 or v80 and has more time to polish them

but i guess with time we will see if that is true or not

on that note, it already can be bypassed in vanilla using radar boosters

https://thunderstore.io/c/lethal-company/p/Tomatobird/NoLostSignal/

and this mod apparently already exists

so

[raven patrol]

I see

I have not had time to dumpster dive in Thunderstore as of late so I kinda took a blind stance

[dense flicker]

Wait what the hell? That sounds like a dumb thing to add and only adds frustration

What the hell are you doing zeekers 🤦‍♂️

I mean i guess maybe its because later it'll be fixed but idk it just sounds like another one of his "ideas"

[signal stream]

its cool

[naive mesa]

Forbid Zeekerss adds a feature to make a certain interior more interesting and challenging

[dense flicker]

Guys its already the most challenging interior

Why would I want to make it worse

It just makes it more frustrating

[crude pier]

But it’s silly and kinda spookie looking

[dense flicker]

So is the indoor fog, but thats also awful

If the mineshaft was an interior that was way more worth going to (had more valuable scrap) then id see your point but atm it's not

Even with the mod

[signal stream]

nah its cool

idc if its harder if its cool enough

[rain moat]

i think people forget this isnt an extremely well designed balanced game this is a goofy ass online party game that was likely not intended to blow up as much as it did

[dense flicker]

Thats not exactly an excuse for unfun game design and balance

[signal stream]

true

it doesnt need an excuse

its cool

[dense flicker]

Agree to disagree

Fog you can at least avoid

This you cant

And its so thick and also guarantees an infestation, which makes the moon completly awful

[daring oar]

i like both indoor fog and no signal

[dense flicker]

Let me ask this: why

Your mod makes indoor fog slightly more tolerable

[balmy pier]

i think the only recent addition i genuinely hate is infestations

theyre such a fucking punch into your gut, especially early game

nutcracker one is more profitable but the hoarding bug one is usually intolerable

maybe i wouldnt mind them as much if hoarding bugs were stunned longer, that way theres an always accessible solution to getting rid of them

but right now the only good solution is a shotgun pretty much

[signal stream]

or just not making them angry?

[crude pier]

I love infestations

The idea of just a massive infestation of X creature inside sounds so funny

Like what occurred inside of that building in order for there to be an infestation

[dense flicker]

Easier said than done

What do you expect us to do, just leave 😆

I actually dont mind infestation, especially with this mod so we can get all kinds of thjngs

[daring oar]

i think it looks cool and spooky

and it's such a rare occurrence i don't feel like it ever overstays its welcome

[dry current]

never overstays its welcome thankfully, but the density is a bit too much at times and makes it a bit annoying to navigate

[daring oar]

i just feel like this game already has so many things in it that already were like "shit, guess im gonna have a bad time continuing to play today"

long before indoor fog

if you weren't accustomed to this game randomly inconveniencing you, and willing to accept that, it doesn't make sense to me that you could play it in the first place

like

you've always been able to get lost in the middle of titan and then have a jester spawn on top of you, even since the game launched...

you have no control over where monsters spawn and almost no control over when they spawn

so i don't think indoor fog is unnaturally evil for "you have no control over it being harder to see in the interior for 1 day"

that's not to say "i think the jester is fun and the fog is not" isn't a valid argument

because it definitely is

but in my mind it's more like, i don't think either of these betray the game's design or are principly that different from one another

so i don't understand the outrage indoor fog generated (and continues to generate) personally

[crude pier]

I think maybe because of how thick the fog is maybe

[dense flicker]

Because you can also choose to AVOID fog

And it's outside, so you usually have an idea of where you are at

In outdoors

[daring oar]

it is really not that hard to play around interior fog

even if you dont know the exact layout of the interior, the tile's layouts never change

[dense flicker]

You keep saying that, but its not gonna make meagree 😅

Its very thick too is another issue

[daring oar]

and if you use a flashlight for increased visibility (they exist to be used for that exact purpose...) the fog never feels so dense to the point where you can't tell where you are

if the point is "I dont want to play with a flashlight and it's hard to do that when there's fog" then like, yeah, i guess that's fair enough

[daring oar]

im aware

[dense flicker]

Even with a flashlight doesnt help

[daring oar]

but you asked why i like indoor fog

[dense flicker]

Its cool and spooky i guess

[daring oar]

anyways on the topic of indoor fog

i did want to implement something to reduce monster vision range when the indoors are foggy

[dense flicker]

Look im not even a guy who is looking for the highest quota lol

[daring oar]

since it is a popular request

i havent worked on this mod in a really long time but it was a feature i planned to add in the next version

[dense flicker]

I just want to have fun, and its not really fun to not be able to see

[daring oar]

for what that's worth

[dense flicker]

Hmm

[daring oar]

this is a perfectly reasonable perspective

[dense flicker]

That I do like

[daring oar]

and this is why i think we fundamentally disagree

and why we are never going to agree

i could talk all day about why i think fog isn't as much of a nuisance as most people say it is, etc. blah blah balh

but at the end of the day i think the fog is an interesting change of pace and inherently fun, to me

[dense flicker]

Like I said: outdoor fog and weather is tolerable because you prepare for it

[daring oar]

so of course i'm going to like it

[dense flicker]

You cant prepare for indoor

It just happens

But your changes I think are good

[daring oar]

but "not being able to see is not fun" is a concise and completely reasonable way to explain why fog doesn't work the same for everybody else

that's just how it is

[dense flicker]

Because if I can't see, the enemy shouldn't either

Or maybe if there is an incentive

Besides living lol

Maybe theres more items, maybe they sre more valuable

Increased chance of all one items

[daring oar]

personally im not a fan of that since i think it gets to be a bit too arcade-y for my taste

like

from a gameplay perspective, increased loot value for weathers (or random inconvenient events) definitely works in terms of balance

i just dont personally like that sort of design

[dense flicker]

I mean is it not a game to get the quota (until some kind of ending is added)

I disagree, it makes people want to go there

[daring oar]

i do wish there was more incentive to visit weathered planets because i think they are cool and do a lot for the gameplay

[dense flicker]

And theres the incentive 😆

[daring oar]

but i really do not like the incentive of "moons with stormy weather spawn 25% more loot"

specifically

[dense flicker]

Nobody gonna want to go to then

You gotta bait the player

Its like the sapsucker

Nobody gonna mess with it because its absolutely not worth it

[daring oar]

yes, i'm not saying the current system functions how it should

right now it is definitely lacking incentive

the optimal way to play is avoid weather entirely

[crude pier]

Yeah I don’t like the increased loot spawns either, but I do think different loot values depending on the weather makes sense (to me at least).

[dense flicker]

The only time its worth is it to avoid paying to go to another moon

[dense flicker]

Oh yeah loot value being higher is fine

[daring oar]

it's basically only a factor if you already paid to land somewhere and now you have to make the decision "is the routing cost worth this sort of weather"

[dense flicker]

One or the other

Yep

[daring oar]

which is sort of functional but it's not ideal

it means you can completely avoid weather on free moons if you want

and even in the endgame, you can completely avoid a certain weather type if you dont like it. you will just have to account for that in how you budget your money

[crude pier]

I wish paid moons discounted each other once purchasing one so it’s easier to reroute to another paid moon

[daring oar]

i do think the routing costs need a lot of adjustments because right now i dont like how the overall gameplay feels

[daring oar]

but this sort of change would need to come with other changes at the same time

imo

right now the expensive routing costs are the only incentive to experience weather at all

[crude pier]

Being stuck to just one moon in end game is a little sucky

[daring oar]

in the basegame

[crude pier]

Yeah for sure, I think quotas would also probably have to change(?)

[daring oar]

if i could just pay $50 to reroute from eclipsed rend into clear dine

then that would massively reduce the overall impact weather has on the game loop

[daring oar]

again, not to say i think this is the perfect solution

because it definitely isn't

it's just an example for why i think there'd have to be push/pull

to ensure everything continues to feel like it fits into the overall scheme

if you really want to split hairs, weathers already offer some forms of unique benefits to players, however small they may be

stormy lets you kill enemies really safely and easily using lightning, once you know how to manipulate it

[dense flicker]

Yep

[daring oar]

eclipses spawn nutcrackers/butlers more frequently, which means greater profits if you take advantage of that

[dense flicker]

Sadly the others dont do much

[daring oar]

etc.

foggy reduces the vision range of enemies like giants which can be pretty big for open maps

[crude pier]

Though that’s why I think having evil weather providing slightly better loot values would be a good thing since it’ll make you think about wether it’s worth risking surviving through the evil weather and getting a good payout or just going somewhere same for less but guaranteed money

[dense flicker]

Is that in base game though?

[daring oar]

yes

[dense flicker]

Thought that was mods

[daring oar]

it's always been in base game

[dense flicker]

Maybe it was improved with mods

[crude pier]

I though it only got added recently (like in v55 or something)

[daring oar]

you are probably getting it confused with mods that decrease giant vision on blizzard moons

giants have a fixed view distance that's only reduced by *foggy weather

[dense flicker]

Ah

[daring oar]

so on maps like rend and titan which have extremely dense fog by default, giants still have full vision range

[crude pier]

Ah

[daring oar]

anyways

all of this is leading up to say that despite how much i like indoor fog

i hate foggy weather and actively go out of my way to avoid it whenever i play the game

i don't know why indoor fog tickles my brain but foggy weather doesn't

[dry current]

that do be true

[daring oar]

but it is a contradictory viewpoint that confuses even myself

[dry current]

I do adapt to it, it's just always like "ah god fucking dammit"

[dense flicker]

Ironic lol

[crude pier]

With my mod setup I have it so foggy weather has like 5 or 10% better loot values

[dense flicker]

I much prefer the outdoor

[crude pier]

So I don’t entirely avoid it anymore

[dense flicker]

Yeah some extra incentives is fun

Like I said a lower thickness and making enemies also have lower visibility would improve it

[naive mesa]

I mean ButteRyBalance already does one

IMO it's at a reasonable strength due to the mod.