ButteRyBalance

[naive mesa]

Snare fleas could just not make you drop items in solo. But I’d argue that’s worse than how it is now since it gives poor feedback for multiplayer and also doesn’t apply if you don’t have a shovel.

[daring oar]

i mean

[raven patrol]

It mainly is to help new players, veterans hardly die to them anyway

[daring oar]

what problem does that solve

[sly pivot]

shovel going away

[daring oar]

it makes the problem worse because it gives you incorrect information and having items in your inventory doesn't save you from snare fleas

[analog cypress]

just grab it again

[daring oar]

unless one of those items happens to be a shovel

[analog cypress]

lol

[daring oar]

which you could already pick up off the ground while you are blinded

it's even better if it's a stop sign or yield sign because you can scan the floor with the thing on your face

[naive mesa]

That’s why I said it probably wasn’t a good idea

[daring oar]

having any scrap would let you find your pile of items on the ground

and get your shovel back

[sly pivot]

I'm fine with it, but it is very punishing if you dont know about it

[analog cypress]

Lethal company shouldn't be easy

[raven patrol]

The elegance of the grace period solution is that it parallels multiplayer because it played to natural player response and it is rare for Fleas to fall right on a player anyway. The chance for poor feedback is minimized

[sly pivot]

Shouldnt be infuriating either

[analog cypress]

At least to some degree

[naive mesa]

What if the snare flea had a larger detection radius for dropping onto players in solo?

[analog cypress]

infuriating is Forest keepers being able to see you through miles away in the fog while you're unable to see them

[naive mesa]

So it’s more likely to drop near the player and not on them

[raven patrol]

This is a solo-only change, solo is still extremely punishing regardless

[analog cypress]

or jesters traping you in an room

[naive mesa]

Still would drop onto the player if you run under it.

[sly pivot]

Yeah, and it gets aggravated by snare fleas

Nowhere is safe or fair, basically, in solo

[analog cypress]

this snare flea change doesn't balance anything, just changes the mechanic and makes it easier

it's an easy enemy

you can easily spot it in the ceiling if you don't just blindly run in the facility

[raven patrol]

Not for newbies though, which is what this change is meant to cater to. With the current vanilla change they literally cannot kill you unless you let them grab you twice so if anything this is harder

[sly pivot]

Indeed, newer players will get killed even more often

[analog cypress]

the snare flea having an window of forgiviness on solo is exactly to teach them to be careful

[sly pivot]

Unless the forgiveness just doesnt get applied, then it just kills them

In the literal first level

[raven patrol]

Not how I would describe it, you get a whole second chance in vanilla

[sly pivot]

Against this single enemy tho

You're usually going to get thumpered or killed by a spider

I think it feels fair, even though its clearly just a second chance, because the rest of the enemies keep being lethal threats

Removing it would just serve to aggravate it

[raven patrol]

I do not have any particular issue is the current vanilla nerf, but Buttery’s criticism of it is undeniable

[analog cypress]

i won't elaborate further on why this change feels unnecessary, it's just my opinion

everybody has their own opinions

[sly pivot]

I agree, it just feels misplaced

[daring oar]

it looks like discussion ended while i was gone but yeah this is mainly why i think it's good

it's all ultimately kind of a wash because snare fleas are not a huge hazard anyway

even with the current (imo kind of bad) feedback in solo, you aren't likely to want to get grabbed by snare fleas in multiplayer

once you learn in multiplayer that they can outright kill, you won't be surprised if it happens again

it's basically just a minor gripe but it does highlight the design philosophy i'd like to take with potential solo changes pretty well

[raven patrol]

Well said

[daring oar]

the real issue with snare fleas in solo

[runic cobalt]

better there than in what water tbh

[analog cypress]

snare flea should be buffed

[raven patrol]

I have seen land mines in that spot too

Blockers on the cave water tile would be great

[analog cypress]

https://tenor.com/view/nuh-uh-nuh-uh-scout-tf2-gif-12750436057634665505

[crude pier]

the water cave geometry is so damn jank

it's basically a one way tunnel where you can't see anything

[naive mesa]

I’m fine with the cave water being janky since it requires repositioning your head and is use usually possible. It’s just a little stupid that it’s fine on one way and janky on the way back. Not much you can really do to fix or stop it but still

[analog cypress]

The water tiles design is intentional btw

[raven patrol]

I prefer the idea I had of making you take damage after running out of oxygen instead of dying to make the water tile more forgiving

If we were to make it more forgiving

[analog cypress]

Personal opinion too: I thought it would be cool if the oxygen drained your health from 100 to 0 in 1 second like the Sans attacks from Undertale

But i'm not very interested in the oxygen mechanic rn cuz it works fine

LC doesn't have any moon focused on water

yet

[marble spruce]

i feel like that would look really awkward in practice

esp cuz every time you take damage in lc theres like an impact sound like you're being hit by something

unless u can subtract health from the player somehow without playing the damage animation

[raven patrol]

I think playing the damage animation is fine, it gives feedback that your character has run out of oxygen and is dying

When crouched the normal animation does not play but your screen still flashes red

[runic cobalt]

if you take damage when crouched, game forces you to stand up even when u cant

[raven patrol]

So if you are crouched in the water tile in vanilla and are damaged non-fatally what happens

Do you clip though the ceiling

[runic cobalt]

im not sure if u fully clip, it might be that the player is forced to stand up then stands back down forcefully, but i remember being very annoyed about the player being forced to stand up so u might clip loool

[raven patrol]

Well regardless of an oxygen rework that should be addressed imo, not too hard to have happen in normal gameplay

[ripe tartan]

I could easily test this with an unlimited oxygen mod

[raven patrol]

If you are hit by the edge an explosion, glanced by a monster/player, fall victim to net-lag giving you fall damage, etc.

[raven patrol]

There also is that 2-story cave tile with the small hole at the top left you often have to crouch through I just remembered

[vague pewter]

Bit late but on the previous topic of the tzp voice thing, if that was fixable for even 8 players that would be so cool. Mainly I'm just mentioning it bc as I had said the underwater voice filter works for some reason... but apparently the tzp one doesn't, which I find very odd.

On the subject of game balance not sure if anyone has mentioned but what about making the baboon hawks increase their fear rating from yelling at them, ala the prevalent myth? If I'm right on how it works it's only loud scrap like airhorns that do it (and only a little bit, giving like 1 point). Would be nice way to make baboons less awful when there's like 10 of them.

[analog cypress]

It was discussed something similar, like boombox and loud horn, but if you're interested in screaming try this
https://thunderstore.io/c/lethal-company/p/woah25/ScaredBaboon/

It's not as interesting as it seems because they become passive

[vague pewter]

Ah ty, might give that a try bc my frens keep getting bodied by baboons lol

[jagged nexus]

I don't trust anything made by woah

[unreal ginkgo]

What's up with them?

[jagged nexus]

They have a long history of harassing mod devs and even got banned from this server for repeated offenses

[unreal ginkgo]

13in1

[jagged nexus]

And their mods tend to not work or all use the same shoddy GUID

[vague pewter]

Ah this is the same person who made the fairbirds mod that doesn't work at all lmao

[unreal ginkgo]

Now that you say it, this mod is kind of an example is that

[jagged nexus]

Yeah lol

[unreal ginkgo]

All ScaredBaboon does is send baboon hawks into their retreat phase when you scream at them, not keep them at a comfortable distance from you

(Which as you can imagine is op)

[vague pewter]

Yeah ig I wouldn't want them to just be essentially removed from the game

[unreal ginkgo]

Yuh

[vague pewter]

ty all

[analog cypress]

Same lol

But I have to bring it every time because people keep asking for that and it's the only mod he did that doesn't seem to ctrl+c ctrl+v other mods

Althrough

I think that ScaredBaboon breaks the baboon AI

[raven patrol]

It works fine for me, it just is OP unless you have it turned up to the max where only very certain stuff trigger it

Log spam is the bigger issue for me

Does not help that the config is vague on how sensitive it makes the Hawks

[analog cypress]

Apparently, only Airhorn, Hairdryer, Clown horn and cash register triggers this condition

Doesn't seem hard to tweak it and make it apply to boombox, teeth, toy robot

and +3 if they hear the loud horn within x units

[vapid pier]

where's my goat whoopie cushion

[raven patrol]

It was too OP so it had to be left out

[vapid pier]

✊😔 justice for whoopie cushion

[analog cypress]

Masked on Offense is so goofy, you can keep running around him here

[naive mesa]

Silly guy

[unreal ginkgo]

Request: Decrease the adult maneater's door opening speed so it's impossible to cheese them with it. This is because I've noticed that my group, and a decent amount of players in general, have been immediately going and trying to kill the maneater upon their spawning instead of taking care of them, which... defeats the entire purpose of the entity.

[raven patrol]

POV kids playing tag on the school playground

[analog cypress]

-> Close the door
-> He can't catch you because it's closed
-> Opens it and hit him
-> Close again when he's ready to lunge
-> New cheese tech

[viscid edge]

or maybe make it so it can open doors while lunging? that sounds like the issue here

[hushed dawn]

Clearly the solution is to make his lunge blow up the door

[analog cypress]

just make the lunge longer if he hits a closed door during it

[marble spruce]

^

[crude pier]

doesn't it require you to obtain the knife to even have a chance to kill it?

[unreal ginkgo]

nop

You can do it just fine with a shovel

[crude pier]

dang I guess that does sound kinda op

[dense flicker]

Holy crap I'm glad I stumbled on this

These are some great changes

Like "they should officially be added" changes

[raven patrol]

I would agree for most

[balmy pier]

the thing is this is not an easy thing to do without a knife
it takes a ton of practice and is also harder to do when you arent the host of the server
and if you fuck it up, you have an extremely persistant annoyance roaming the map now that has very little you can do as a response to it besides just staying back, and its likely fucking up the kill without a knife would mean you cannot get any more scrap

[unreal ginkgo]

I don't care

Y'all have been doing it consistently that it defeats the entire purpose of the entity

and it's not that hard to learn

[balmy pier]

and using doors to stall other entities doesnt cheese them?
for butlers, sure, but stalling hoarding bugs, thumpers, and brackens especially with doors, can really save you
is that a cheese?

[unreal ginkgo]

No, considering you're not taking care of the maneater in their juvenile phase

Which is why I've said this cheese defeats the purpose of the entity as a whole

[balmy pier]

ok and learning how to strafe a bracken or using a zap gun on one to kill it defeats the purpose of them also

according to this logic

[unreal ginkgo]

How do those two correlate

[balmy pier]

because the entity gets killed when it "shouldnt be killable"

[unreal ginkgo]

That is not what I said

The entity is fine being killable, but it shouldn't be this easy to the point it negates the main gimmick of it

A gimmick as major as this

[balmy pier]

ok
and the bracken isnt like this?

[unreal ginkgo]

no

[balmy pier]

ok

whatever you say

[unreal ginkgo]

lol

[raven patrol]

I find myself agreeing with Purple here, in our runs people are killing everything indiscriminately, ignoring tons of interactions

Butlers, Brackens, and Hoarding Bugs hardly have a chance to show their mechanics before they are pounded with a shovel

If you wanna have fun taking care of the baby instead of just adding its corpse into the pile you can just say so, it would be pretty low of Purple or Alex to steal it

[unreal ginkgo]

Yeah, I've already made it a rule (Exclusively for CC lobbies I host, Idc what you do with the maneater outside of that), but I was just asking here so it could potentially be properly enforced

[raven patrol]

Fair enough

[unreal ginkgo]

The maneater is case I feel where it's at its absolute worst

The entities you listed you can at least get a glimpse of their mechanics, but not with the maneater

[ebon sandal]

the sound that the centipede starts making after falling for the first time is intended?

cuz when it starts doing it, it never stops

[raven patrol]

Not sure I agree, Hoarding Bugs are often killed without holding any scrap, so players do not see that. Maneaters cry and run away when hit which shows even an aggressive player that they are scared babies.

There also is the point that people killing Maneaters already know their mechanics, and prefer killing it to having the baby slow them down. There are other Maneater cheeses and they can be killed without any cheese, and skilled players will prefer any of these to babysitting. You would have to buff Maneater to the point of being completely overpowered to force all player types to babysit

[crude pier]

I’ve never seen anyone in my group kill a bracken with a shovel

[crude pier]

I think the method of cheese is the problem here (whatever the door method is)

I think being about to cheese it and kill it with a knife makes sense

[raven patrol]

Me and Narpy are talking about a niche situation, we play with Ironman players who kill anything that moves

[crude pier]

Oh

[raven patrol]

All of this probably does not matter to most players

[raven patrol]

The way you kill Maneater is that you bait its lunge and then get hits in during its recovery animation. Doors let you easily survive its lunge by keeping them behind it, making killing them a lot easier

This is usable for a lot of monsters but it is most pronounced with Maneaters

[daring oar]

i dont think that this is an issue

just to finally weigh in to all the discussion above

i also think there is a weird correlation between "enemies should have counterplay that isnt just killing it" a la the butler discussion but being able to shut doors on maneaters to save yourself from a lunge is apparently cheese?

like, you gotta do what you can to survive

doors will only save you from a lunge if there's considerable distance between it and the door anyway

otherwise it'll just bash it open and continue the lunge and catch you

[analog cypress]

Maskeds are able to spawn in Adamance?

[daring oar]

yes

adamance and artifice spawn all enemies in the game

[dense flicker]

for your forest keeper balance, I only see one setting when there were two in the wiki onilne. Is that somewhere else?

[daring oar]

yes, sorry, the wiki is a little out-of-date

[analog cypress]

Didn't know that

[daring oar]

i moved the "forget out-of-sight players" to the "FixGiantSight" option in butteryfixes

because it is like 99% likely it's a bugfix and it's also host-sided so it doesnt demand custom networking

[analog cypress]

I thought it was something with ButteryBalance

I had a heart-attack when I was testing LethalSponge earlier and heard steps behind me on Adamance

[dense flicker]

Oh aight cool

[raven patrol]

I agree wholeheartedly, playing almost exclusively with Ironman players means I have to be careful in not loosing sight of that the monsters are dangerous to most players. Doors are why I think Butlers are annoying but not game-breaking in solo (not sure how well I communicated this initially), they cannot open doors for the life of them

[marble spruce]

i dont really like the maneaters design at all

its an inevitibility that doesnt really feel rewarding to take care of

you're circumventing it i guess

that's fun

but it has so many cases where it just turns into an adult without you being able to do anything so stuff like door cheese is kind of a necessary evil

but if the maneater was like actually something preventable that punished you for neglecting it then it shouldn't have that

i know you'll like entirely disagree with me on this i just felt like giving my two cents lol

all in all it just feels really Jank but hey its letal ompany

[dense flicker]

I think the baby is pretty manageable

Assuming you have a group lol

[marble spruce]

every time ive played w/ it w my group (barring i havent seen how it works with butterybalance ingame) it basically always turns into an adult near 6 or 7pm regardless of how well we are watching it

its kind of just a timer shortener that feels kinda stup[id

like the game literally already has a clock why do we need another mechanic that shortens how long you can stay on a planet

unless you got mineshaft then just put it on the top floor and win Lol

[unreal ginkgo]

Can't adult maneaters teleport

[marble spruce]

I've never had it leave the upper floor when doing that

[vapid pier]

What 😭

[marble spruce]

so i dont think so no

[unreal ginkgo]

I'm pretty they can do this

or could do it at a certain point

I remember distinctly watching an adult maneater teleport while spectating them

[crude pier]

Could maybe add some kind of recovering mechanic (for the conversion timer) So maybe whenever it eats an item the timer will go back down a bit buying you some time

[marble spruce]

I've suggested something like this a few times before yeah

but the item eating mechanic is too random and inconsistent for me to agree with specifically that

like I don't really get what causes him to get "hungry"

ive tried dropping stuff at his feet sometimes for fun and sometimes he just wont eat

[unreal ginkgo]

It's a random chance

[crude pier]

They have a chance to just devour an item that they are staring at

[unreal ginkgo]

8% chance iIrc to eat an item they're observing

[crude pier]

Yeah

I think it’s like 8% every second

[vapid pier]

Dont think this is a thing

If it was I thiiink it’d be documented and more talked about

[unreal ginkgo]

I wouldn't be surprised but I feel really sure that it is/was

Did v60 have a beta

[marble spruce]

I've trapped maneaters behind security doors in facility too

and it pacifies them

well

it prevents them from ever getting to you

i mean

[crude pier]

Enhanced lock picker my beloved

[unreal ginkgo]

I feel like I encountered this phenomenon a few times somewhere around when juvenile maneaters were first given the ability to pathfind off of drops

Then never again

[vapid pier]

No

[marble spruce]

iirc adult maneaters can still tp out of pits

but not like

sectioned off rooms

[unreal ginkgo]

OH maybe that's what I'm remembering

It'd be cool instead of pathfinding off of pits the maneater straight up climbed out of them
with like

the kidnapper fox's inverse kinematics

[marble spruce]

or spider

yea

u know the barber has IK too

[unreal ginkgo]

what

[marble spruce]

yeah

the arms bouncing

[unreal ginkgo]

oh

[marble spruce]

its IK stuff calculated in unity

not baked into the animations

[unreal ginkgo]

That's

an interesting move by Zeekerss

but Ig it's to make the arms look more bouncy

[marble spruce]

I did IK too for clay surgeon but i baked the frames in blender

so it doesn't actually have IK in game

[unreal ginkgo]

No more Ik 😔

IkCall

[marble spruce]

[unreal ginkgo]

Thank you I was looking for this

[crude pier]

I need to play more upturned

[unreal ginkgo]

IkFrown

[unreal ginkgo]

Play more Upturned™️

[daring oar]

adult maneaters teleport only if they are stuck in a position where they can never route to players

which pretty much demands a player intentionally dropped them in one of those places and let them transform

[unreal ginkgo]

So they could theoretically teleport out of the Factory's blast doors and Mineshaft's main entrance?

[daring oar]

pretty sure no to the blast doors thing

less sure about mineshaft start but i think that is also a no

im pretty sure the condition is it only TPs if it cant reach any ai nodes

from being dropped on top of a table or rock

[unreal ginkgo]

Ic

[daring oar]

but i haventconfirmed

[daring oar]

my thought process is that it takes up a monster slot

to spawn something that can be delayed from actually being a monster for a long time

and it has unique counterplay separate from all other entities

which i think is lethal's biggest strength

obviously i am not perfectly happy with its vanilla execution

hence why there were changes made to it to begin with

but i feel that the whole "it's an inevitability" thing is important because it is still a monster

[unreal ginkgo]

All they really need are safeguards, for both crying and pathfinding around hazards, and they'd be perfect in my eyes

[daring oar]

especially since the entire baby phase was bolted on to it after it was completely finished

[unreal ginkgo]

Which this mod does the former

[unreal ginkgo]

BABY FORM?!?

[daring oar]

that is why i also don't completely hate the possibility that it can transform without players having ever encountered it

it is sort of reminiscent of its original design as "the terrifying cave predator you never ever want to meet in your run"

but obv i think it's ridiculous that it can transform instantly by like 9 AM before anybody has even entered the building just because of trap RNG

[unreal ginkgo]

Lethal Company has a lot bullshit outside of that, so it's pretty much a needle in a haystack

[daring oar]

okay so unless im reading this incorrectly

basically, every 15 seconds, the cave dweller checks if it has a valid path to the closest AI node to its current position

and if it doesn't, and it's out of sight from all players, it can teleport to the nearest AI node

which should be the same node in both circumstances

so it shouldn't ever teleport while it's being observed, and it should only be short (ideally unnoticeable) distances

there are AI nodes at the top of the elevator and i think it's impossible for blast doors to generate without AI nodes on both sides

[daring oar]

so that really only applies to stuff like this

anyways

[daring oar]

i suppose it's true

i think maneaters in adult form have enough counterplay that it is not a complete frustration or deterrent from continuing to play

but i don't necessarily think they are high on the list of the game's fun encounters

[unreal ginkgo]

I mean

What do they do that's necessarily dangerous

They have a pretty loud sound cue and constantly keep a comfortable distance from you

[daring oar]

i think they are uniquely terrifying which is why i don't really want to change their adult behavior at all

except for this

but i do think they are deserving of 3 power level once they are transformed

and 3 power level also alleviates some of the weight of constantly having to care for them to delay the transformation

and pre-transformed maneaters cropping up on occasion is ok and scary, but it happens way too consistently in vanilla for my taste, especially in a place like offense

which simultaneously has a huge maneater spawn rate and enough traps to consistently transform them

[unreal ginkgo]

Unrelated but why people talk about LC entities that emit music they don't bring up the maneater
It isn't even on the wiki either

[daring oar]

on top of all the other shit you normally have to do with

[unreal ginkgo]

Or is it not considered music

[daring oar]

it's not music, it's their bodies buzzing

[unreal ginkgo]

It sounds like it's designed in a way to sound like music, doesn't mean it's canonically music though

[daring oar]

yeah it feels like ambient music kinda

[unreal ginkgo]

Like, thriller horror movie type stuff

[daring oar]

but i believe the idea is that it's a diagetic sound

could be wrong, i am not 100% sure

[unreal ginkgo]

This is also interesting since maneaters don't seem to have wings

[daring oar]

maneaters were originally intended to deafen players so it's possible it's just supposed to fill this space with non-diagetic creep

[raven patrol]

I am dumb, what is wrong with this

[unreal ginkgo]

• you can hear the clacking of their jaws behind the music

[daring oar]

and was left in after the deafen mechanic was dropped

[daring oar]

maneaters definitely do not charge in straight lines in vanilla

[unreal ginkgo]

Justice for LRAD 😔 /j

[daring oar]

if you are at the bottom of the factory stairs tile and it starts a lunge while you are at the top

it will run up the stairs with perfect accuracy and get you at the top before the lunge is over

[raven patrol]

I see

[daring oar]

basically having them lunge anywhere except for a straight line with a lot of stamina to use is a death sentence

[unreal ginkgo]

You can see this by just having a maneater charge at you around a corner

[daring oar]

it is nearly unavoidable

tbf the changes i made don't really make that consistent counterplay either

[raven patrol]

Is that what their big scream was for

[daring oar]

you need a lot of sharp turns, like the railing in the center of the locker room

[unreal ginkgo]

no

The clacking of their jaws you hear while they're stalking you

[daring oar]

or the factory stairs

and even still, if you dont have enough distance, it might nab you right at the tail end of the lunge

[daring oar]

also yeah

the mandible clicking is what's supposed to deafen you

i think the scream just amplified the deafening effect

[unreal ginkgo]

It's funny Zeek went from the old bird to the maneater with the defeaning mechanic and neither of them made the cut in that aspect lol

[raven patrol]

I can see why that was dropped, how on earth is that meant to deaden you

[daring oar]

the buzzing audio plays during the clicking, which is why i mentioned it's possible it could be intended to fill the silence with non-diagetic noise

[crude pier]

Muffle the audio I guess

[daring oar]

in any case the buzzing is creepy as fuck and i hate it

[crude pier]

With ringing

[daring oar]

the maneater makes horrible horrible sounds

[raven patrol]

Maneater does have peak sound design

[daring oar]

it's funny because im pretty sure one of the reasons meteor showers exist is so he could finally make use of that mechanic

[crude pier]

I’ve never noticed it. Does it only happen in the adult form?

[daring oar]

the weather alert temporarily reduces the volume of everything else

using the same mechanics that were removed from the old birds and maneaters

i actually considered bringing it back for the maneater and i might still do that in the future

[unreal ginkgo]

Also a little homage to the sale advert concept he had a while back

I assume

[daring oar]

most of the code zeekerss used for the maneaters wasn't properly removed until like, late v62 or v64

i think old birds are already good enough without the deafening effect

embrion is already nearly unplayable

Lol

[unreal ginkgo]

What's the rundown?

[raven patrol]

I would think Old Bird would be up first

[raven patrol]

I think it would be cool

[daring oar]

if i restore it it'll be off by default

anyway

[raven patrol]

Old Birds are meant to be the final boss of outdoor enemies and yet Giants still have the crown for most players

[daring oar]

yes, when it's moving around the map it can make a couple of different sounds and all of them are horrific

[crude pier]

I love the design of the maneater

[unreal ginkgo]

This is purely because of the forest keeper's bugged memory decay

[daring oar]

it kind of goes back and forth between fake cries to lure you out and the weird deafening clicks

[crude pier]

Same with the kidnapper fox (just not gameplay design for the most part)

[daring oar]

i'll post the clips if you give me a second

[raven patrol]

Kidnapper Fox’s model was like the one good part of it when it came out since parts of its AI and everything about Vain Shrouds were bugged

[unreal ginkgo]

Just to add onto this, it'd be cool the make old birds... more bird-like with this mechanic? Like how the song about them described them as
When they use their lrad, they'll stop, arch backward a bit, and emit a defeaning call, kind of like bigger terrestrial birds(?)

and those within lethal vicinity have their ears left ringing for like 15 sec

[raven patrol]

The thing is the bestiary entry says that their name is arbitrary and not due to any resemblance to birds

[crude pier]

I really hope zeekerss goes back to the kidnapper fox when they get back to LC

[raven patrol]

Though this would be interesting

[vapid pier]

maneater doesn't tp if it's stuck at mineshaft entrance or behind security doors btw

[unreal ginkgo]

I know, but counter-point: It would be so awesome

It would be so cool

[daring oar]

I still think the Kidnapper fox's appearance is a little too cute, since I wanted it to be scary and intimidating without being pitifully gross and nasty--I wanted it to be kind of badass, since it's inspired by real-life predator animals like cougars, as well as the xenomorph. I think its design hasn't quite scratched that itch, but I am satisfied with its sound effects and animations. In solo testing I found it too timid

i do love the kidnapper fox but i definitely agree with zeekerss here

it is way too cute and funny to be "badass"

at least to me

[unreal ginkgo]

A mix of both is what makes the kidnapper fox so memorable to me

He def pulled it off being badass Imo

[daring oar]

sound effects and animations are both peak as well

as he said

[crude pier]

Hopefully the foxes will return in the future

[unreal ginkgo]

v55 was more memorable to me than v50, and I'm not sure why

[crude pier]

Even though zeekerss has said it’s unlikely

[raven patrol]

Maybe if its fur was ruffled and missing patches than being perfectly pristine. Visually communicate that it is a tough predator that can take a hit

[unreal ginkgo]

Discovering vain shrouds and barbers for the first time was so magical because they were not like anything we've seen before

[daring oar]

lol yeah it's definitely a cute sort of fluffy

[unreal ginkgo]

A plant entity, and an eerily simple entity akin to the lasso man

[daring oar]

scrapes/wounds on its legs would be pretty gnarly

[unreal ginkgo]

I legit thought the barber was unused at first when I first spawned it in with Imperium, its design is so simple

[crude pier]

One of my first encounters with the kidnapper fox was me running it over with cruiser

[daring oar]

maybe even a gash on its face

[unreal ginkgo]

This would make it even cuter /shrug

The more you try to make something already both cute and badass more badass, it backfires and amplifies the cuteness aspect

at least to me

[vapid pier]

what?

[unreal ginkgo]

Don't question it

[crude pier]

My friend who really liked the fox got really upset with me after that

[unreal ginkgo]

Deserved
Kidnapper foxes are an endangered species y'know..,

[raven patrol]

v55 was much more a quirky update, with things constantly surprising players. v50 was still super memorable to me, I went in blind and seeing Old Birds for first time is a core memory

“GUYS THERE IS THIS GIANT ROGOT WITH A BIG HEADLIGHT THAT IS SPAMMING ROCKETS EVERYWHERE AND PLAYING BABY NOISES”

[unreal ginkgo]

Old birds

aren't thjat memorable to me

😭

Butlers even less so

The moons carried the update

[unreal ginkgo]

IS THAT SERIOUSLY THE FILENAME??

[daring oar]

no it's a couple of separate audio files with effects applied

so i had to edit it together

[unreal ginkgo]

o

It would've been hilarious if it was

[raven patrol]

Me on mobile and cannot play .ogg files

[crude pier]

I’m so glad I discovered artifice and embrion naturally

[unreal ginkgo]

Also it seems to be massively sped up in-game

Feels really slow here

[unreal ginkgo]

Same

First discovering Embrion...

13in1

[daring oar]

this is how it plays in game

i mean, roughly

i had to estimate the reverb and volumes

but the clicking sound is as-it-is

[unreal ginkgo]

Its speed might be random then, for the buzzing I mean

The clacking is the same speed each time

[crude pier]

eeuuuhhhhh

[raven patrol]

I guess what made Old Birds for me is that my first encounter was on Adamance and its stationary map prop was hidden from view, so I had no reason to expect it

[unreal ginkgo]

DUDE

I LEGIT THOUGHT THE SAME THING

I THOUGHT IT WAS A HALF-SUNKEN STATUE ON ADAMANCE AT FIRST

That aspect of them was memorable for sure

but I still had better memories with v55

[crude pier]

yeah it was in the dead-center of adamance for me

[unreal ginkgo]

It was on the hill behind the dropship's landing spot for me

Positioned in a way that I thought it was half-sunken

[daring oar]

there's also the fake cries which range from "subtle, with the adult's buzz underneath it"

to "this is definitely not safe"

[crude pier]

I love this one

[daring oar]

it is sort of interesting that it still cries as an adult

[unreal ginkgo]

I was going to say, yeah

[vapid pier]

#bait

[daring oar]

even its death sound has a crying sound to it

[raven patrol]

Catfished by a predator

[unreal ginkgo]

Seems like the reason the adult is attacking us is because they're extremely stressed out from whatever made them cry in their juvenile phase initially

but Idk

That's my interpretation

[daring oar]

which suggests it's maybe not crying just as a lure, but its biology just never develops a deeper voice

idk though

in gameplay it obviously serves the juxtaposition of the cute baby creature turning into a hideous monster

[unreal ginkgo]

The bestiary doesn't mention such a thing, so that's why I don't consider it a lure lore-wise

[raven patrol]

I think the fact it is called ‘FakeCry’ hints at it being a lure

[unreal ginkgo]

It is a lure gameplay-wise tho

If you get what I mean

[crude pier]

tbh the file names seem kinda poorly/simply named

[daring oar]

anyways i still think v50 was the best update to the game

and i feel like that is pretty hard to debate

whether you like all of its additions, it was still the only update to add new levels to the game, which have by far the largest impact on how the game is played going forward

[raven patrol]

Even so the fact it has two cries with one being hard to distinguish from the baby also hints at it being a lure, it has to be intentional

[daring oar]

v60 is sort of close with the mineshaft i suppose

[vapid pier]

it is literally just the biggest update

[crude pier]

v60 was so cool to me because of the elevator and caves
I really really liked the idea of the elevator in the beta version of the game and was so happy that it kinda came back in a way

[daring oar]

old birds are definitely memorable and transformed outdoors gameplay regardless of your opinion of their execution

[unreal ginkgo]

I mean, the voices of animals or even humans get higher pitched when we cry, so

[daring oar]

in fact, now that the fox has been removed, it's the only outdoor threat to change the gameplay loop since v40 added baboon hawks

[raven patrol]

v50 was the biggest update and I agree was the most solid too, every subsequent update has had some issues with its features

[unreal ginkgo]

Idk what reason from a biological perspective adult maneaters would cry as a lure

[raven patrol]

To trick food to come to it?

[daring oar]

one of the new levels it added is IMO the best one in terms of lethal company's design and has also become the de facto endgame

[vapid pier]

we love 3(4) moons, 3(4) enemies, 1 1/2 weapons, disco ball

[unreal ginkgo]

Vee fitty

[unreal ginkgo]

What was the fourth entity

[daring oar]

butlers, mask hornets, old birds, and tulip snakes

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh right

[vapid pier]

4th moon being Dine

[raven patrol]

Artifice is my favorite moon for its design, if Liquidation becomes the new best moon and is not a fun design-wise I will be sad my favorite moon is no longer also the best

[unreal ginkgo]

I forgot about tulip snakes lo

[daring oar]

i wouldn't call 4 moons accurate since liquidation likely did not see very much development before it was scrapped

[daring oar]

artifice is just so fun

the endless turf wars outside

[vapid pier]

I was referring to Dine since the rework effectively made it a new moon

[daring oar]

ducking between the hangars and warehouses

[unreal ginkgo]

Praying that Liquidation comes out as an oil rig moon 🙏

[daring oar]

the unique autumnal theme

even the weird background ambience is super memorable and haunting

[unreal ginkgo]

Having Liquidation be a beach-type thing would be pretty disappointing

[daring oar]

artifice is peak lethal company

i think adamance is the best designed free moon as well but i feel like that it is an unpopular opinion

[unreal ginkgo]

We need more industrial moons like Experimentation and Titan

[raven patrol]

Ganimedes is a top 3 modded moon for me because its design is just Artifice dialed to 11

[daring oar]

v50 added the 3 coolest moons to the game (if we discount rend which was available at launch)

kinda sucks that embrion is only cool because of the spectacle and rarely comes up in serious gameplay

[raven patrol]

The insane monster spawns kinda kill it

[daring oar]

hopefully the drill bit fixes that

[unreal ginkgo]

Yeah

[daring oar]

oh yeah speaking of this

i discovered the other day that there is a weird chewing sound in the night time ambience for artifice

which i've never noticed in game before

[unreal ginkgo]

I'm def imagining that Embrion will having a major drill part since it was used for military purposes

[unreal ginkgo]

I know about this

[daring oar]

it is super bizarre

[unreal ginkgo]

and also doesn't sound like chewing

[daring oar]

i have no idea what the fuck is happening on artifice

[unreal ginkgo]

More like gurgling

Like the inside of a stomach

Which is

weird

[raven patrol]

I gotta switch to my laptop so I can play these .ogg files, I am missing out

[daring oar]

lol sorry all the files are OGGs and WAVs/MP3s dont even work for me on mobile either

[raven patrol]

“Rumored active machinery”

[unreal ginkgo]

Mimicket's just eating a sandwich fucking leave him be bro

Hop off 🙏

[daring oar]

how a mimcket walks

[unreal ginkgo]

true

[unreal ginkgo]

Are old birds the machines from ULTRAKILL?

Because machines don't just gurgle like this

[raven patrol]

You say this like their design is realistic otherwise

[unreal ginkgo]

They look pretty dry to me Idk

At most there's probably an apparatus powering them

but apparatuses don't sound like they're composed of liquid either

[daring oar]

to be fair they are war machines with no objective that isn't unselective murder

but the bestiary does say they are powered by fuel from passenger aircraft

which implies their original designs are rooted in domestic terrorism

so that is strange

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh god
Is the gurgling actually them killing entities??

TrollStop

Imagine

[raven patrol]

Gurgling sound is actually underground water seeping up, Artifice actually was a marsh all along

[unreal ginkgo]

Batby is the Overseer confirmed (I'm not elaborating on this)

[unreal ginkgo]

Another thing

I don't see people talk about Artifice's ambience often

At most people gloss over Embrion's

but seems like most just forget that Artifice has music of its own

...If you consider its daytime and nighttime ambiences music at least

[daring oar]

i think artifice's main track is pretty memorable

i just dont think many realize it has unique night time ambience

i pretty much never notice the latter myself

if im being honest

[unreal ginkgo]

Seems like the regular and Artifice nighttime ambiences are really obscure to most

I wish they were just a tad bit louder like their daytime counterparts

[raven patrol]

Maybe the giant murder robots blasting noises have something to do with it

[unreal ginkgo]

I'm not talking about the ost btw

You know like

the droning you hear a lot on Assurance and Gordion

Yeah

[raven patrol]

I actually do notice that and appreciate it. When a modded moon has no ambience it is eerie, and not in a good, immersive way

[daring oar]

yes

the #1 thing that kills custom content for me is the soundscape

[unreal ginkgo]

Bozoros suffered from this for a while. Glad it has ambience now

[daring oar]

i love the design of kast but the fact that it doesn't sound anything like a platform in a mining pit is so jarring and impossible to ignore in game

[unreal ginkgo]

What does it sound like?

[daring oar]

this was a problem with earlier versions of sf_desat's moons but i know they've been updated a bunch since i last explored on them

[raven patrol]

I try to justify it for the moons in my modpack by saying they have super still air in their description, but that is just my coping

[daring oar]

absolutely nothing

it is dead silent outside

[unreal ginkgo]

Still air 💀 Those who

[unreal ginkgo]

It could use some ambience but not like constant creaking
There would be constant creaking of there still was active machinery, but these places are abandoned

I wouldn't imagine they make a lot of noise

Kind of my #1 problem with Oldred

[daring oar]

there needs to be some sort of sound

there's no wind

no machinery

[raven patrol]

Adding the wind sounds from Assurance or Vow would be enough, the facility it at a high elevation

[daring oar]

no structural sounds

it's just you and footsteps

[unreal ginkgo]

That I agree with, but not constant creaking or stuff like that

Assurance's ambience or wind would do nicely

Moons having silent facilities is both pretty creepy and believable

Which is why I like them this way so much

Aside from like main entrance's ambient I guess

But that goes into the believable aspect

Adding constant creaking and stuff to Titan would ruin its atmosphere a lot to me Imo

[raven patrol]

Kast is maintained by Tolian now so if it still is silent we could ask him to add ambience

[unreal ginkgo]

If Titan was a modded moon, it would definitely have it

[daring oar]

i dont know about that

but titan is also too quiet for what it is IMO

[unreal ginkgo]

I think increasing its main entrance ambience to encompass the entire playable area would do it justice without

ruining the feel

[raven patrol]

I actually like Titan’s ambience, it is a good eerie

[daring oar]

well this is the part where i feel like it's prudent to mention

that main entrance ambience only exists with butteryfixes

because zeekerss forgot to move it to the right spot in vanilla

and it's off floating in a random spot on the surface

since it reuses the position of assurance's main entrance

lol

[raven patrol]

It is a truly desolate moon aside from the monolithic facility and has a strange haze, it has a liminal feel to it

[raven patrol]

Zeekerss moment

[daring oar]

titan is one of the several moons where the entrance ambience is just completely incorrectly placed

[unreal ginkgo]

This goes for many moons, but I'm going off of how it's intended

[daring oar]

experimentation i took some creative liberty with

[unreal ginkgo]

We love Embrion's main entrance ambience being near a fuck off boulder 🤑

[daring oar]

the ambience plays in the elevator room there, but since it's no longer accessible in-bounds, i moved it to the entrance

im pretty sure everything else is just bugged

9/10 times it's just because they reused assurance's position because i assume zeekerss forgot about it

[unreal ginkgo]

Having all this talk really reminds me of how much Lethal Company needs a health update...

[daring oar]

adamance is unique because it's floating off in a random spot in the sky only accessible with a jetpack

[unreal ginkgo]

Which coordinates does it reuse?

[daring oar]

it doesn't reuse any coordinates

[unreal ginkgo]

What the fuck

[daring oar]

i think he probably moved it there since it was in the middle of nowhere before he added the entrance

and then i guess he maybe forgot to put it back once the entrance was finalized

who knows

maybe it was never intended to be audible on all the moons and he just decided to put it in bumfuck nowhere instead of disable it

i have no idea

[unreal ginkgo]

The mystery

[raven patrol]

I like the consistency

[daring oar]

anyways i agree that titan would be okay if the ambience just covered this entire space

this is where i put it in butteryfixes

better than nothing but i still think the fact the factory is dead silent even on the middle step of the catwalk is sort of strange

[unreal ginkgo]

This would be good for Chameleon if you were to ever do it

[daring oar]

but y'know, this is good too

[unreal ginkgo]

MeWhenINeedtoGetOut

[raven patrol]

Random asset reusing knows no bounds

[daring oar]

there are some maps where it's placed really strangely

but seemingly on purpose

where i didn't change it

[unreal ginkgo]

Zeekerss still has that Roblox developer in him

[daring oar]

like it's sitting here on rend

i do wonder a bit if the building used to sit at the end of the lights

and he moved it off to the side behind the hill

because i think in earlier versions, the scan node also had really strange alignment here

if i could find more evidence conclusively proving that maybe i'd be more tempted to move it again

[unreal ginkgo]

Company Busters™️

Wait a minute that sounds horrible nvm

[daring oar]

oh no, he changed the relative position of the building from its original axis

don't tell me

[unreal ginkgo]

😭?

[raven patrol]

More Assurance assets

[daring oar]

god dammit zeek

i think that actually is what happened

lol

[unreal ginkgo]

What happened?

[daring oar]

i could be mistaken but it seems like he placed the building's entrance in a different spot originally

and then adjusted the machine ambience based on that position

[daring oar]

and then he moved the building again later causing the audio to be positioned weirdly

[unreal ginkgo]

Is Rend in v9?

I can check

if it's different

[daring oar]

i am opening v9 right now to check

but last i looked

im pretty sure it's in the same spot

yes, it is in the same spot in v9 as v69

[unreal ginkgo]

Bruh

[unreal ginkgo]

Zeekerss give us v6 please 🤑

[daring oar]

i am sort of doubtful there was ever a playable version of rend with the old building position

he was probably making these changes at the same time as he was designing the level initially

at least that is my intuition

makes way more sense on dine

[unreal ginkgo]

Ough v49 Dine

[daring oar]

although, y'know... now that i look at it, this is not the same dine from v49

[unreal ginkgo]

Hello

It isn't?

[daring oar]

no

dine always had that decoration around the main entrance

and i think the platform was elevated by that point too

[daring oar]

here the entrance is placed by the divet

ah shit

there was a video that used to show off all the logs in v49

and it had dine's main entrance, since the log was sitting just above the doors there

but i think that video got taken down by the uploader when they made their v50 updated version

whatever this works

thanks Gaming With Brenten

[daring oar]

it's even cool old age flooded dine

you can see the water pool

the best v49 dine video on youtube

[raven patrol]

On the ambience thing we talked about, is it possibly to assign ambience to moons based on tags with LLL or something? I am thinking of something like Dopadream’s Atlas

[daring oar]

to my knowledge no mods exist to do that

[raven patrol]

One does not, but could one?

I would be willing to ask around

[unreal ginkgo]

Well, yeah

Code pretty much has no limits

...Practically

[raven patrol]

Every time I ask something like this it usually sends in people saying it is not possible

mrov told me the vanilla moons cannot have their weathers be edited by a single config and Imbatby told me fire exit minimum spawn distances are not possible via a mod

And I just take them at their word because I do not know anything myself

[unreal ginkgo]

It's for sure possible, but also something you would probably need to pay money for due to how much work it'd be, which isn't a bad thing

[daring oar]

i dont think batby was trying to imply the latter

it's more that the system used to spawn fire exits in vanilla has no capability for it

so you'd need to replace it with custom logic

[daring oar]

this wouldnt be impossible either, just a question of how it should be done and who wants to do it

[raven patrol]

His response was “not possible”, which to me sounded quite conclusive

Either way

[runic cobalt]

mrov also doesnt want users in an api to be doing things to vanilla moons and whatnot, everything is possible in code for the most part

(if you're a dev weather registry lets you do whatever u want with weather on any moon lol)

[raven patrol]

Darn

I would like that

[raven patrol]

Dopadream’s Atlas comes to mind, maybe the code would not be too different

[unreal ginkgo]

You mean apis affecting vanilla moons, or mods using an api to affect vanilla moons

[runic cobalt]

neither, users arent allowed to mess with vanilla stuff with WeatherRegistry, but devs who use weatherRegistry are given the capability to

[unreal ginkgo]

Weird

[daring oar]

the placement of the factory ambience is a bit odd on some moons

even where it seems intentionally located

most moons where it is broken (with the unique exception of adamance) just never moved it from the default spot on assurance's scene

but even on assurance, it notably does not emanate from the factory

it emanates from the silos next to the factory

[raven patrol]

I actually have noticed this and think it is odd

[daring oar]

IMO this is like, the only example of this weird placement that can be 100% chalked up as intentional design

so while it is odd i dont technically think it needs a fix

on march, it emanates from this specific corner of the entrance

[raven patrol]

Eh close enough

[daring oar]

it is "possibly misplaced" on rend

and it is definitely wrong on offense, titan, adamance, and embrion

[unreal ginkgo]

Why is this the most inconsistent thing in LC wtf lol

[daring oar]

on artifice it's placed below the map

which made me think "oh maybe it reuses rend's coordinates" but no it has actually has very slight manual adjustments

everything except the Y coordinate (which contrls the altitude) was changed

so like

Huh

[wind spoke]

something that could be interesting is if there were different building sounds

[daring oar]

also i have no idea how im only just now realizing this

but even though zeekerss reused the building

it's actually textured differently on the manor maps

different concrete

feels like that should've been obvious

[wind spoke]

interesting

[crude pier]

What about embrion? There a weird concrete bunker thing that has the facility ambience

[crude pier]

Also h u h

[viscid edge]

i should add main entrance ambience to my moons

[daring oar]

embrion is one of the maps where it is bugged and uses assurance's placement

which causes it to be way off here

[raven patrol]

For reference, what moons actually have the sound placed on the entrance door?

[daring oar]

experimentation has it placed in the elevator room

assurance, vow, march, (sorta) rend, dine, and (sorta) artifice have it placed by the main entrance

it is broken automatically (coordinates carried over from assurance without adjustments) on offense, titan, and embrion

and it is "broken" manually on adamance, where zeekerss gave it new coordinates but those new coordinates map to a random point in the sky above the map

no idea how much of that is intentional

[raven patrol]

So not counting Experimentation only 4 of the 11 moons have their noise placed correctly, 6 if Rend and Artifice are both considered correct

[daring oar]

i think artifice should be counted as correct

i am less certain about rend

so that would be 5/11

[daring oar]

and i think it's also worth excluding these 3 from the count since there were no manual adjustments made to the coordinates, meaning it was likely overlooked

so it's 5 or 6 out of 8 are correct

by that metric

[crude pier]

That is so cursed

[raven patrol]

That is being pretty charitable imo, overlooked = mistake to me

[daring oar]

well i was thinking that you were trying to clarify if it is a design error or intentional

[daring oar]

the reason why i lean towards error and "fixed" it is because of this ratio

most of the places where it's wrong, it's wrong because it wasn't changed at all

there are only a few edge cases where it was moved by zeekerss and still seems potentially incorrect

and that's where it's not clear if it was a mistake, or matched an older design of the moon

for rend i personally lean into the possibility that it used to be more correct and then zeekerss moved the entrance somewhere else

[raven patrol]

No difference to me

[daring oar]

i have no idea what's going on with adamance

but in my case

i chose to "fix" it because adamance reuses vow's main entrance building

and it is correct on vow

it's hard to say it was ever a hard design rule for zeekerss though

in experimentation it was placed inside the elevator room, which makes sense (the sound is called "BigMachineRoom1" and is attached to a game object called "BigMachine")

and it's possible he just accidentally stumbled upon it in the hierarchy while making assurance and decided to move it to the main entrance just so it had somewhere to be

it's placed between the silos there

so it's not even strictly next to the entrance doors

and then it seems like he more or less forgot about it after he made dine

because it's correct for exp, ass, vow, mar, rend, and dine

the next level he made was offense and it's wrong there, then titan where it's also wrong

and it's "wrong" for all of the v50 moons, except i think artifice coincidentally wound up being correct

because artifice's scene is very derivative of (and was probably created by cloning) rend's scene (and changing it)

artifice's object has some very minor alterations to its coordinates, which suggests zeekerss could have made adjustments to it

but artifice had a bunch of changes to its hierarchy that could have automatically offset its position by coincidence

hard to say

[crude pier]

I’m kinda surprised every moon is basically just a derivative of another and heavily modified(?)
I would’ve thought each moon would have been mostly made from scratch

[daring oar]

lol yeah i could be wrong

almost all of what i say is speculation based on pattern recognition

and it's possible i'm recognizing patterns where they don't actually exist

but there are certain characteristics i found that make those connections

and that sort of "development archaeology" is super fun for me so i get into it a lot

in the case of artifice and rend, i think it's likely they started out as the same scene file because their main entrances are very similar

they both have the same placement and orientation of the "entrance platform" (it's buried under the snow in rend, but you can actually see the opening on artifice)

artifice is the only vanilla map that uses this dam prop except for vow

[unreal ginkgo]

Rend:

[daring oar]

which is conveniently also enabled on rend, just hidden out of bounds where most players will never see it

it is common knowledge now, but artifice also started out as a snowy map and was changed before v50 went into beta

the unused terrain even exists in the files still

and there are some other leftovers, like artifice still using the snowy maps' volume (causing the sky to appear murky and gray)

the fog on artifice also resembles the blizzard fog more than the "clean fog" on all the other non-snowy maps

uses a smoke particle texture and also "rolls" through the environment

titan suffers from the opposite issue in some respects

[vapid pier]

are you stll wanting to do Mesa Titan Soon™️

[daring oar]

well

i wanted to bring that up actually

i have sad news for mesa titan believers

i went back to v9 titan out of curiosity and found out that it was actually still snowy even then

which makes me more doubtful that titan wasn't always snowy

i think titan just wasn't always intended to be a blizzard map with low visibility

[unreal ginkgo]

What

Wasn't this a lore thing

Not a gameplay thing

I didn't know there was a rumor of an actual playable mesa Titan

I just thought of it as a comment from Sigurd about, "Titan not going to look the same in a few years"

[daring oar]

in vanilla, titan uses the non-snowy volume which causes it to look way brighter outside than the other moons

there's also a lot of additional evidence that titan was based on one of the non-snowy moon's scenes and then manually altered

since it uses the non-blizzard sun animation container

[daring oar]

(for context, rend, dine, and artifice all use this)

(they all probably stemmed from rend's scene originally)

[crude pier]

I’m still sad about titan not having “many entrances” or whatever the moon info says

[daring oar]

titan uses the "normal fog" that other moons use

in v9 titan actually used to have almost no fog

this isn't an actual v9 screenshot, but this is me replicating the conditions of v9 (volume and fog distance)

titan had this aesthetic back in v9

i'm actually kind of a fan of it

[crude pier]

Looks kinda nice

[daring oar]

but it might have been changed because this is the map that makes LC's render distance most apparently an issue

without a mod to increase the render distance, there is super obvious culling when you look out into the horizon

like here

[crude pier]

Yeah I think having just enough fog to hide the vanilla render distance would be nice

[daring oar]

if you fly to the roof it's super obvious

this is obfuscated a bit by vanilla's denser fog

and if you use chameleon to fix the volume, that also obscures the skybox

v9 used the same render distance as v69 currently does so i assume zeekerss would have noticed this issue in playtesting and made the change

[analog cypress]

Idk why but every time i look into this image it feels like the antarctic base from The Thing

it's kinda cool but i prefer non-snowy artifice

[daring oar]

anyways another reason i say this is because titan has no blizzard ambience

it just uses the "high wind" ambience

not sure if that's intended or not but i'd venture to guess it could be

although i still think it makes titan feel kind of awkward

it doesn't have any of the blizzard effects present on rend and dine

and just has arbitrarily thick fog

maybe i ought to do a proper overhaul of the visuals in chameleon

replace the fog with the actual blizzard fog so it looks more dynamic

[daring oar]

i am personally a bigger fan of this aesthetic

the vast empty surface

but the render distance thing is pretty distracting and a major turnoff for me

[crude pier]

Would be cool if titan has the dusty clouds effect that experimentation has but snowy looking

Then there’s just a bunch of rolling fog on the ground and being relatively clear above it

[daring oar]

well it's sort of funny you mention it

technically that rolling fog exists on all maps

[analog cypress]

Idk if i'm the only one who doesn't understand why the dust effect on experimentation only appears when you're outside of the ship

like

[daring oar]

it's actually part of the unused "dust clouds" weather

and i have no idea if it's intended to exist or not

[analog cypress]

Rend, Dine and Titan has the fog non-stop

[daring oar]

there's like, equal parts evidence to suggest it's a bug that it shows up at all

as well as to suggest it was just a really jank way to implement an extra visual effect on certain maps

[analog cypress]

but experimentation is the only one that the fog doesn't appear when you're near the main entrance or the ship

[crude pier]

On experimentation it just goes under the map when you go in the ship and then rises up from underground when you go outside

[analog cypress]

why

it would be cooler if it didn't go under the map

[daring oar]

@unreal ginkgo oh yeah

i found out why i've never noticed artifice's weird gurgling ambience

apparently it doesn't actually play in game

is that a bug or intentional? no fucking clue!

[crude pier]

Maybe it’s because it would clip into the ship(?)

[analog cypress]

i mean

Rend blizzard doesn't clip into the ship

[daring oar]

the audio source it's attached to is not set to play when the moon loads (like the daytime ambience is)

[wind spoke]

mesa titan would still be cool

[daring oar]

it's not set to play on rend either, but that might be overridden by some sort of trigger somewhere?

like, the object for artifice's main ambience is set to play when the moon loads, even though the same object isn't set to play on rend

what a confusing mess

[daring oar]

i find it very likely this is a bug since it's a unique audio clip only assigned to artifice

[daring oar]

and he maybe just forgot to flag it like he did the daytime ambience

[unreal ginkgo]

I've

heard it in-game before

what

[daring oar]

but i can not say conclusively

[crude pier]

What does the sound sound like?

[daring oar]

i mean, again, it's possible it is attached to some sort of trigger

but as far as i can tell

it's not attached to any of the audioreverbtriggers

and idk what else it could be attached to

[unreal ginkgo]

I heard it near Artifice's cabin

[daring oar]

looks like it doesn't play on rend either

there is a "lowercliffs" ambient track that should play at low altitudes, like near the fire exit

but it doesnt look like any triggers are set to activate that sound either, unless i missed them

have to use mods to turn it on

[daring oar]

cabin is dead silent for me

shrug

[vapid pier]

did the lights in the cabins always have extra sound effects for being turned on/off

(unrelated)

[daring oar]

i believe so

[daring oar]

looks like it doesn't even play the high altitude audio, and there is just a separate audio source playing the blizzard audio

even though that same audio source exists on dine and doesnt play blizzard audio

and dine uses the high/low altitude audio code correctly

i absolutely despise how moon audio is set up in this game

[daring oar]

as far as i can tell the only possibility here is that it used to play in an earlier version of the game and was disabled at some point

i do not have access to versions past v55

at least, not on my computer right now

but i will check

i suppose it's possible it was enabled in v50 and got disabled in v55

because artifice got a visual update in v55

oh nvm i do have v50 on my computer, just on the wrong hard drive

[daring oar]

even on the version of v50 i have on my computer, it looks like it's not set to play

so at this point the only thing i could guess is that it might be enabled on some specific beta

or there would have to be some other root cause allowing it to play

[marble spruce]

ugh

what is this object called

[dense flicker]

I just love my child

https://tenor.com/view/lethal-company-makesweet-maneater-lethal-company-maneater-my-beloved-son-gif-2253352317482526113

[daring oar]

it's BigMachine

[viscid edge]

this seems to randomize the values of modded apparatuses instead of just the vanilla one

[daring oar]

if the modded apparatus inherit from lungprop, yes

if that is an issue you probably just need to turn the setting off

[marble spruce]

why tf would it only modify the vanilla one anyways?

that would be kind of stupid

[daring oar]

well i guess it's mainly just because i dont know the value of modded apparatus

and it's a hardcoded range of values

so if a modded apparatus is worth like $300 instead of $80

it's gonna still get reduced to $40-130

[marble spruce]

oh thats weird

you should make it calculate some percentage of the apparatus price instead of hard setting some value tbh

most interiors with a custom app are just reskinned apps but i think they might vary in price

[daring oar]

oh wait

[HarmonyPatch(nameof(LungProp.EquipItem))]
[HarmonyPrefix]
static void LungProp_Pre_EquipItem(LungProp __instance)
{
    if (__instance.IsOwner && __instance.isLungDocked && __instance.scrapValue == 80 && BRBNetworker.Instance.ApparatusPrice.Value)
        BRBNetworker.Instance.SyncScrapPriceServerRpc(__instance.GetComponent<NetworkObject>(), new System.Random(StartOfRound.Instance.randomMapSeed).Next(40, 131));
}

Lol

it shouldnt run the randomization code unless the modded apparatus is $80

[viscid edge]

i'm pretty sure i've seen it run on a modded apparatus with a value of 120

[daring oar]

i would estimate that is occurring because the modded apparatus has its value set to 80 even if the scan node says $120

the scrapValue attached to grabbableObject and the scan node do not sync at all

which is why the apparatus is able to say "Value: ???" in the first place

[dense flicker]

Would it be possible to have a setting option for apparatus value

I feel 40 is a bit low for my blood, I'd like to set it to 60 minimum

[raven patrol]

I got into a bit of a discussion on Bread’s server about how to balance the CC to make it less OP but also viable without Weed Killer, I figured I would paste my ideas here for if they sound interesting:

• Collision logic that makes it so hits can be registered in extremely quick succession and vaporize the CC’s health should be removed/fixed (better reliability)
• Entities avoid CC if nobody is in the cab and the engine is turned off (feature from CruiserImproved I think is good)
• Mid-air steering with boost jumps is less responsive (effectively removes Art jump)
• Old Birds see players in the cab but their rockets do not launch players out of it

Just spitballing in case I am onto something

[analog cypress]

CruiserImproved doesn't also have cruiser invulnerability duration that "fixes" the first issue?

[raven patrol]

It does but it feels like a band-aid fix

Also gets super OP depending on config

[vapid pier]

only one that u can't technically do (probably) with CruiserImproved is the 3rd one lol

[analog cypress]

you can do the 4th one with Cruiser improved?

[raven patrol]

CI does not make them see you iirc

[vapid pier]

oh

[analog cypress]

Idk what to think about the old bird one

i agree

[daring oar]

you should use the cruiser for 1, 2, and 4

[analog cypress]

but

[daring oar]

i do want to fix old birds not seeing people in the seats and will get around to it "eventually"

[marble spruce]

?

[daring oar]

not sure what to do about 3

[daring oar]

also im dumb as fuck and distracted

i meant use cruiserimproved

when i am not in the middle of something i will be able to discuss in more detail

sorry

[analog cypress]

the 4th i agree, but that i'll make Embrion even shitier and Artifice will become a lot harder if you don't master the art of air jumps

[marble spruce]

thats literally how you address it taking too much damage too fast though lol, the issue is that the physics engine is thinking the car is taking a ton of impacts in a very short interval

[raven patrol]

I do use CI currently but the mod is unmaintained, plus I would like slightly different execution of stuff

[marble spruce]

the solution is to add a damage cooldown

you cant really fix it any other way

[analog cypress]

CruiserImproved already deals very well with the first and second problem, it's also client-side

[raven patrol]

Doesn’t the current logic also make it so 1 hit can be bigger than it should be? Also making hit spam less of a thing could improve performance

[analog cypress]

too much work probably

[raven patrol]

idk I am just saying things

Like I always do

[vapid pier]

unrelated but is it a vanilla thing that if an oldbird gets close enough to you to pick you up while you're in a Cruiser it's animations get a little.. frozen

[analog cypress]

i'll join the fun and bring back to the table something even more controversial

[raven patrol]

As I understand it CC messes with their pathing, hence why they cannot see you

[analog cypress]

it was already discussed but i give it a thought days later and came up with an creative solution

Weathers should be buffed

[raven patrol]

Solo Butlers?

[analog cypress]

Last time i was talking about giving scrap some extra multiplier like MeteoMultiplier do

[raven patrol]

You have some explaining to do

[analog cypress]

but that's probably the wrong approach

The best way to buff it is the Zeekerss way

mineshaft -> extra scrap

weather -> extra scrap

but with an twist

[vapid pier]

😭?

[raven patrol]

I think weather would be fine if the vanilla moon meta was more diverse, weather encourages visiting other moons

[analog cypress]

the extra scraps that spawn will vary in a way that emphasizes its mechanics

Clear: No extra scrap
Rainy and Foggy: +1 two-hand scrap
Stormy: +2 conductive scraps
Flooded: +2 "heavy" scraps (<=42lb and >=19lb)
Eclipsed: +2 random scraps

These scraps must be on the loot table and the buff won't apply on single item day with one-hand scraps (If you're that unlucky to get an two-hand scrap day, you might as well get the buff lol)

I mean it's very complex, but maybe it could work

[analog cypress]

https://tenor.com/view/virtual-insanity-gif-1489225195979366584

[raven patrol]

If I were to to want to buff scrap on weather I would agree with this

[marble spruce]

also i missed this but it is very much not unmaintained

digg has been active pretty much this whole time there just hasnt been a lot to do

it had a pull request merged like an hour ago

[raven patrol]

My bad, I am not keeping track of all these mods

[daring oar]

yeah cruiser improved isn't unmaintained, it's still stable and the dev came back to it today to make a couple patches as well

i am not sure how to go about nerfing turbo boosts because like

the risk of a bad turbo is instantly destroying the car

and it's already close to useless without a setup

changing the controls would change the setup

but it would not prevent it from being utilized

and it's already kind of a high skill high reward type deal

if i nerfed the capability of turbo where it could no longer do the artifice trick in general

then it would just make turbo completely useless

so im not extremely invested in making changes to it, in general

[raven patrol]

I imagine the boost was conceived as a way to get out of stuck positions in an on-brand scuffed manner

[raven patrol]

I mean that the cruiser cannot change directions in mid-air like the Art jump needs, at least not as precisely

[marble spruce]

omg please dont change it ever lol that would throw me off sm

like changing the power of it or anything would be so cruel lol

[raven patrol]

It seems pretty consistent if you know it, I have seen people hit stuff mid-air and be able to save the jump or at least land somewhere to just drive the rest of the way.

Also this is an entirely entirely separate point but I am starting to realize just how prominent save scumming is, even public lobbies do it

The community seems pretty trigger-happy with it whenever overly risky stuff is involved

[daring oar]

you dont really need turbo to get unstuck unless you dump the car in a pit

and most of those pits are death pits

it's much easier to maneuver the car by rocking it without turbo

using turbo boosting will just launch the car and immediately explode it

or at the very least will disable your ability to rock the car which is a huge loss of control

[marble spruce]

one time i got stuck in the dine pit

bc you know

kill triggers dont work

and my friend dropped a bottle in the pit lol

[daring oar]

lol well

[marble spruce]

and i got out with it

[daring oar]

i fixed the kill triggers thing

[marble spruce]

wym

how

[daring oar]

i made the kill trigger cover the pit on dine

[marble spruce]

lmao

[daring oar]

and fixed kill triggers not triggering while you're sitting in the car

[marble spruce]

thats not what im talking abt

yea that