ButteRyBalance

[daring oar]

from early versions of lethal company

[analog cypress]

i want it

please

[unreal ginkgo]

I don't remember that while playing v2 and v4

[analog cypress]

add it on ButteryFixes lol

[daring oar]

he removed them because i think it causes white screens for some players

[unreal ginkgo]

Did it exist then?

[analog cypress]

it's cool as hell

[daring oar]

but you have the option to just... not install my mod for it, if this is an issue

and it's cool for atmosphere

so i think it's a net positive

[daring oar]

probably not butteryfixes because of that issue i just mentioned

just to be safe

or, at least, it'd be disabled by default

but i do want to add it back some how or another

i love restoring cut content

it's like that one mod i made for lasso man

[daring oar]

im pretty sure it's in v9

[vapid pier]

Chameleon?

[daring oar]

idk about v4

[unreal ginkgo]

Speaking of, have you ever considered restoring Red Pill's old model

[analog cypress]

AnimatedPlink

[unreal ginkgo]

Obunga feels out of place when I add it as a secret in moon rosters lol

[unreal ginkgo]

o I forgor

v4 and v9 I think

There's no available v2 I think

or am I misremembering

[daring oar]

i mean

no not really

but it's there

[unreal ginkgo]

"Restore", moreso a recreation like uh

[daring oar]

you just have to enable its renderer and then change the material to something other than obunga's face

[unreal ginkgo]

the classic suit

[daring oar]

an unlit red material is probably accurate enoug

[unreal ginkgo]

Would go good as apart of RestroLasso methinks

[analog cypress]

i get hyped thinking what if lethal company had lasso man, but it would probably be like that mod of SnatchinBracken

[daring oar]

chat is this real redpill gaming

[analog cypress]

and the entity would be annoying as hell

[daring oar]

idk what lasso man would act like

[unreal ginkgo]

I've always imagined it as throwing outdoor entities at you

Like a better

mysterious harbinger

[daring oar]

and i think zeekerss said he's not going to add it anymore

or like

puffo or blueray said he wont

or something

[unreal ginkgo]

Wiki says that, but there's no source to it

[daring oar]

anyways it probably wont be added and that's fine i guess

i dont have any sort of strong love for it exactly

but i do think it's a shame to not use the cool red pipe cleaner man design

it's really surreal and unique

[unreal ginkgo]

I do personally since it has potential from just looking at its design

[vapid pier]

thank you Art Gallery wesley interior

[daring oar]

and it fits at home in the same game with the barber

[unreal ginkgo]

Even Sigurd says that the lasso man freaks him out

[unreal ginkgo]

True!

[unreal ginkgo]

Well, non-canon Sigurd, I guess

[daring oar]

i mean

im pretty sure all sigurd is canon and simultaneously not canon

as much as i like the concept of zeekerss' world and i love to hear more about it in each update

i think it is pretty obvious he's winging it a bit

because it doesn't stand up well to scrutiny

he has had to correct like 4 separate sigurd timeline errors

at this point

and at this point it's like

does it even matter

[analog cypress]

it just gets even strange when looking at the stats

large pip size, 30 seconds of stun

[unreal ginkgo]

I think Sigurd shouldn't just

[daring oar]

butteryfixes adds sigurd's text back to the old bird bestiary entry in spite of the broken timeline because whatever sigurd is fun

[unreal ginkgo]

Exist in 1968

It should be in like the 2400's

[daring oar]

maybe

[unreal ginkgo]

Explains the drill's cleanliness anyways

[analog cypress]

Sigurd is a time traveler

chill guys

[unreal ginkgo]

So you could keep all the fun stuff in Sigurd's vandalism

[unreal ginkgo]

Bro's the 16th Doctor

[analog cypress]

it will be revealed on v80 cinematic

[unreal ginkgo]

Would Sigurd make a good time lord

[daring oar]

shovel hp 6?

(no idea where they got this number, it has 3 HP)

[analog cypress]

fandom wiki moment

[unreal ginkgo]

Pretty sure all of the invincible entities had 3 hp

Including the old versions of forest keepers

[daring oar]

im pretty sure 3 is just the default value

tulip snakes have 3 HP

but their damage function just instakills them

[unreal ginkgo]

Yeah this is why the Fandom wiki sucks ass

[daring oar]

instead of counting their HP

[unreal ginkgo]

No offense to Giosuel, but it seems like he doesn't maintain it a lot anymore

Like

The toy train's values are ? and ? on their wiki page

Like

lol??

[vapid pier]

is it not becuase he's busy

[unreal ginkgo]

Idk, I haven't talked to him in like

a year

[daring oar]

in any case i dont think he should be solely responsible from maintaining it

for a while i worked on the miraheze wiki

but then there was some weird stuff going on

[unreal ginkgo]

The miraheze and wiki.gg wikis are 10x more reliable than the Fandom wiki, that's for sure

[daring oar]

i think one of the admins or the owner or something ran a really tight ship and kept reverting page edits

but i might just be misremembering

idek anymore

at this point i dont use the wiki for anything

it's honestly easier to just look at the game code or unity project and figure it out from there instead

[unreal ginkgo]

Edits should be processed by a higher up, not automatically set lol

[daring oar]

because at least it wont have misinformation

[analog cypress]

interesting

pipeCleaner

[daring oar]

attack damage instant kill

even though it deals no damage

because it's bugged and can't collide with players

[analog cypress]

it says instakill, but he was planned to do 40 dmg?

[daring oar]

yes

[unreal ginkgo]

Wait

They have an attack animation, right?

[daring oar]

yes

but the animator doesnt have any transitions set up

so only the idle animation works

[unreal ginkgo]

Are you planning to restore their entire behavior, or just gonna allow them to spawn?

[analog cypress]

Lasso man is very appealing to restore, but thinking about how would he work is annoying

[unreal ginkgo]

There’s no footage of their attack animation online, and it’d be really interesting to see in action

[daring oar]

his attack animation is called "BeginPulling" and looks pretty much exactly like it sounds

anyways

[unreal ginkgo]

Wtf

[daring oar]

if i ever make the lasso man mod

[unreal ginkgo]

It’s literally a precursor to the kidnapper fox

[daring oar]

all im going to do is fix them not being able to deal 40 damage on hit

[jagged nexus]

I got a question since you're active in here right now Buttery

[daring oar]

and try to fix the walk animation

im not going to write custom behavior for it

[daring oar]

ok

[jagged nexus]

I get a lot of lag when going back into orbit and stuff anytime a Cruiser is attached to the ship, do you know if any mods like Cruiser Improved/Additions/Magnet Lock might be running checks every frame?

[daring oar]

not off the top of my head

[unreal ginkgo]

Might be magnet lock

[jagged nexus]

I would guess not Improved since you said you use that, no idea if you use Cruiser Additions though

[unreal ginkgo]

I haven’t gotten lag from the former

[jagged nexus]

I think so too

[unreal ginkgo]

I don’t use Magnet Lock, or even knew of its existence until now, so this is just a guess

[jagged nexus]

But I could also see the move script in Cruiser Additions maybe causing overhead

[unreal ginkgo]

That could be it

What is Magnet Lock, anyway?

[jagged nexus]

https://thunderstore.io/c/lethal-company/p/DarthLilo/MagnetLock/

Useful when you use a mod like Doorbelle

[unreal ginkgo]

Ah, so basically an anti-troll mod

[jagged nexus]

Ya

[unreal ginkgo]

Idk how that would cause lag…

[analog cypress]

that's sad, he would be just like a thumper then

[unreal ginkgo]

A pre-v47 thumper?

[daring oar]

well it is true but i don't have much interest in working with it beyond that

it's in an extremely unfinished and broken state and i don't think anybody other than zeekerss will be able to meaningfully restore it

but if someone tried maybe they could make something cool out of it

idk

[jagged nexus]

I love the unique way Wesley restored it for Art Gallery

[daring oar]

i did look at the code of this

[jagged nexus]

tbh

[daring oar]

it doesn't look like it's doing too much

[jagged nexus]

It's prolly Cruiser Additions then if I had to guess since it has that script for moving scrap into the ship

[analog cypress]

i do have a cool concept, but idk if that would fit lasso man

[jagged nexus]

https://thunderstore.io/c/lethal-company/p/4902/Cruiser_Additions/source/ Unfortunately the full source can't be viewed

[jagged nexus]

Also if you ever get around to it, a fix for the host only bug of colliding with the cruiser when entering the passenger seat or getting the door in the back of the cruiser closed on you would be great. It gets Exaggerated with Mel's Cruiser mod really badly sometimes

[jagged nexus]

👀

[vapid pier]

why is it so big

[daring oar]

i added an optional side mode that makes embrion enormous (larger than titan) and adds a ton of scrap to it

it's disabled by default and i probably wont do a ton of balance testing

[vapid pier]

o

[daring oar]

but it's the most interesting thing i can think of doing with it

maybe in the future i'll even slow down the speed of the day passing

i like the idea of just having a behemoth map that's really calm on the inside

[unreal ginkgo]

What size?

[daring oar]

and i think the best place to put that is embrion (low indoor spawn rates, pretty amethyst caverns, "meme tier" status)

[daring oar]

2.2x mineshaft (but it's not shrunk like titan's is)

2.4x manor

2.35x factory

[unreal ginkgo]

Lord

[daring oar]

on average i don't think it's going to be that much more profitable

but i like the idea of it having more maximum potential if you really strategize to squeeze it dry

even if the average returns are still terrible

like vanilla embrion

[daring oar]

im designing that infestation rework now

this is the last bit i want to push for in this update

and im going to downscale my original plans

i wanted to include barber infestations

and i wanted to add outdoor infestations (dog/baboons)

and i was even thinking about some crazy stuff like coil and snare flea infestations

but i think this update will take another week if i keep pushing for more

[daring oar]

so i will just do the mechanical rework

and i will add masked + butler infestations

and the rest can be a future update

[unreal ginkgo]

Is ButteRyBalance vanilla compatible

Vanilla maneater just sucks too much balls for me to enjoy

[daring oar]

no

this is my first mod that utilizes custom networking

[unreal ginkgo]

I see

[daring oar]

my goal was to make it configurable where everybody needed the mod, but only the host needed to customize settings for everyone to sync and get the right stuff

all of my other mods (except for barber fixes kinda) are host-only or client-side

but i couldn't really do that this time

[daring oar]

i could maybe make a dll of some of the maneater changes

maneater power level and growth mechanics are all completely host-sided

[unreal ginkgo]

It's up to you, you're not obligated to go thru the process of removing all the networking + not that big of a deal anyway overall

[daring oar]

i'm pretty sure the lunge is client-side, though, so that wouldnt work in vanilla

[unreal ginkgo]

Unrelated to BR, but do you know what causes forest keepers to Micheal Jackson towards you

[daring oar]

wdym

[unreal ginkgo]

Sometimes a forest keeper's AI tweaks out, and walks sideways toward their target during their aggravated phase

As seen here

[daring oar]

never seen it before

[unreal ginkgo]

They pretty much remain sideways until they either calm down, or come eye-to-eye with a player (Doesn't matter if its their target or not)

[jagged nexus]

I've never seen them be sideways either

Something with your pack Narpy

XD

[unreal ginkgo]

Shrug, this happened in my client-side modpack, and it happens in Purple's as well

It's not common though

[jagged nexus]

Weird

[unreal ginkgo]

I wasn't the host in this instance, so it couldn't be FairGiants doing this as (I assume) it's not active while client-side

[raven patrol]

Just finished catching up on today’s conversation, man I wish my afternoon was not so busy. Just want to add a couple things:

1. I also would like Bees to be able to spawn on Offense, the moon’s giant exterior would feel less empty and pointless if it had them. It also helps balance the moon
2. Please please please add the VHS menu effects, I want those so badly!
3. I see Buttery’s point on the Experimentation garage door, very interesting. The more you know…

[jagged nexus]

I'm kinda glad it sounds like Buttery is gonna add the essential things from FairGiants into this mod. The Anti-Camp patch I realized isn't even needed anymore

They walk away just fine on their own in recent game versions

FairGiants is a mod I hate keeping around as a seperate mod but it's good for the vision nerf

[unreal ginkgo]

So these two are good to disable?

[jagged nexus]

Random Wander is kinda nice, but Enhanced Anti Camp is kinda unnecessary

[unreal ginkgo]

What was she gonna add again?

Their vision's decay, right?

[jagged nexus]

yeah

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh, cool

Do old birds have the same anti-camp?

[daring oar]

i think you need enhanced anti camp on for it to work

random wander

the random wander setting just makes it so when they walk away from the ship after a chase, they go to a random spot

instead of going to a specific node every single time (the one furthest from the ship)

[daring oar]

the vanilla behavior (and what enhanced anti-camp used to do, if random wander was off) was this

[analog cypress]

https://tenor.com/view/update-is-today-update-is-tomorrow-update-wakanda-tchalla-gif-5630318163439022771

[jagged nexus]

https://thunderstore.io/c/lethal-company/p/TestAccount666/AntiSlimeCamp/ Btw @daring oar If TestAccount is cool with it this could probably be merged in too

[shut torrent]

Quick question

Can we expect thumper infestations at any point?

[daring oar]

probably not

i dont like thumpers (skill issue) but they are also capped at 4 per day

[shut torrent]

Awwww

Unfortunate

I love thumpers (killing them is satisfying)

[daring oar]

i did think about adding some iframes

when you use an entrance

but i wont be doing that in 0.1.0

[analog cypress]

Update today at 10PM 🗣️ 🔥

[ripe tartan]

an idea from another mod, Jester despawns after it kills someone, someone can sacrifice to be rid of it? or maybe just force him back into its box after a kill? does it already do that? or does it run around killing everyone (i really should google this instead of typing this here)

[vapid pier]

It runs around killing until everyone is outside for like 5 seconds or something

[naive mesa]

It goes back in the box immediately after everyone leaves

[vapid pier]

close enough

[analog cypress]

I don't agree with that, but I use a mod called JesterTimetout, that makes him hunt for a limited time (60 seconds)

Jester killing only one player would make him not very dangerous

[ripe tartan]

true actually

its a unique thing for it kill all

[daring oar]

yeah the only other thing i might do for jester is force it to go away from the entrances

once it goes back in the box

[balmy pier]

you could have it do a similar thing the bracken does if no one is inside

but obviously not all the way to the furthest point

cause then it wouldnt do anything anymore

[daring oar]

i am actually confident the update will release today

it feels like i've gotten my energy back and im making good progress on a new system

the infestation stuff is probably about ready for testing and that's the last feature coming in this update

[marble spruce]

ditto xd

i have finished every scene but artifice which is like half done

fuckin

scriptable objects wasted my time for so much i got tired and had to sleep

[balmy pier]

Masked Masked Masked Masked Masked

[fallen musk]

The dream stans are coming

[raven patrol]

Beat me to it

In Arduous Hardships where high tier moons are infested with Masked I constantly make Dream Stan jokes

[daring oar]

lol

this is assurance

[raven patrol]

Are these unrelated or the same day

[daring oar]

for clarity

unrelated i just thought it was interesting

anyways the custom infestation stuff is like

"done"

except it seems to lock up and stop spawning enemies

which obviously a major issue

[raven patrol]

Honestly it would be interesting if Masked infestations forced Mask SID

[daring oar]

this is really weird

i was able to get a masked infestation working on dine

but now i cant even get infestations to work at all on assurance

[raven patrol]

Hmm

[daring oar]

enemies are being assigned to the vents and never actually spawning

i wrote custom spawn logic for the infestations (i'll explain why once it's finished)

and it's supposed to piggyback off of indoor waves

but it's not working right

[raven patrol]

Is there some sort of check that is messed up by the custom spawning?

[daring oar]

the problem seems to be with enemySpawnTimes

oh

you know

i think i just figured out what's up

actually

yeah i see

that's kind of annoying

but i can work with that

whatever

[daring oar]

it was basically just coincidence this worked

spawns only worked if a natural wave spawned enemies

and only if that natural enemy spawned after the infestation enemies

on assurance spawn rates were so low that had way less likelihood of happening

[raven patrol]

Are you not just modifying spawn weights

[daring oar]

no, im doing something else

it'll make sense

[daring oar]

okay i had to fix one more very silly bug

but im gonna retest and it might be good to go, now

[daring oar]

i discovered a bug with vanilla in the middle of doing this

Lol

so i needed a sec to write a bug report for that

[wind spoke]

that would be cool

[daring oar]

the bountiful fields of experimentation

[hushed dawn]

what on earth

[runic cobalt]

If that's your own foliage pls tag it with the tag/layer foliage, zeekerss doesn't always do that and it annoys me

[hushed dawn]

the weeds are on top of the silo

[daring oar]

i just took a screenshot

[hushed dawn]

I'm gonna reduce to atoms

[daring oar]

this is all vanilla foliage + vain shrouds

[raven patrol]

I swear, I see screenshots are the colors are more bold and saturated than on my computer. Does LC/Unity do things to make the game look fancier while being run in more powerful hardware (I am only on a laptop)

[vapid pier]

cornucopia

i think this is just volumetric fog disabled

[raven patrol]

It is not that

[daring oar]

i play with reduced brightness

which makes the game darker but makes the colors richer

[raven patrol]

Ah, it may be that

[daring oar]

i did the whole brightness calibration thing on the title screen

when you first launch

[vapid pier]

i like the vain shrouds on top of the silo thing

[daring oar]

and for me the symbol was barely visible after going several clicks below default

[raven patrol]

Yeah, I just out the slider on max and called it a day

[daring oar]

oh yeah

that'll wash out the colors a ton

[raven patrol]

Hopefully I can change that, I am somewhat regretting that now

[daring oar]

you might be able to apply some color grading to resaturate the image but idk if any mods exist to do that yet

[daring oar]

yea it's on the pause menu, but the calibration screen is only visible the first time you launch

you can move your save file to a diff directory, launch, calibrate, screenshot the slider, then put your save file back and re-adjust the slider until it's in the right spot

[runic cobalt]

Damn didn't remember experimentation to have that much foliage

[daring oar]

probably because most of the time the foliage is red and blends in

but when it's far away from the camera it changes to a material that's green

🙂

very cool

[raven patrol]

Is foliage affected by the seed

[daring oar]

nah that's all just part of the scene

[raven patrol]

I have seen that, it is very strange

[daring oar]

the boulder and vain shrouds were seeded

[runic cobalt]

Lmao

[raven patrol]

Just as weird as when in a very large interior tile (only really seen in modded interiors), there is a distant fog effect that makes super far away things easier to see than things closer. I assume it part of Unity

[daring oar]

ok new infestations work

update very soon

sorry it took me like

a week longer than i predicted it would

but i think it will live up to the wait

[runic cobalt]

[analog cypress]

Update before 10PM

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1017105721323683982/1211771128507408394/dancing-cat-fast.gif

[raven patrol]

Cool beans

[daring oar]

i wanna buff TZP

like, more than I already have, I mean

[unreal ginkgo]

Drugs

[daring oar]

I think increasing the recovery speed of stamina would help since it tanks your recovery speed

might also be nice if it could temporarily decrease the intensity of the weight penalty

just spitballing because im having to write out descriptions for all this shit im adding

and it's on my mind

[analog cypress]

increase the capacity a little to allow you to get a full effect + medium effect

[balmy pier]

this ALONE is peak

imo tzp cans should just have enough to equal 3 full dosage effects

[analog cypress]

3 full dosages are a lot

we can manage 2

[balmy pier]

yeah but you have to take like 14 seconds to get one of those

plus if its stormy, thats even more risky, cause the more drunk you get, the harder it is to hear the can could be sparking

its also just not better than the cruiser in any capacity as it is right now

besides on a moon cruiser isnt really good

[unreal ginkgo]

You should kick the bucket on the fourth dose because funny

Drug overdose

[daring oar]

i want to make driving the car harder while you're on tzp

zeekerss implied he would do it but im pretty sure he didn't change anything about it

i think it'll be funny

and it's not like it impacts any real gameplay scenario anyway

[unreal ginkgo]

Finally, real drunk driving in Lethal Company

[balmy pier]

the funny thing is, this is only really good for adamance

cruiser is perfectly functional on every other moon except titan

but TZP is also not good for titan so like

[unreal ginkgo]

If you can do some whack-ass jumps, it’s apparently good there too

[balmy pier]

yes, the titan cruiser jump is real

but who the fuck is doing that seriously

[unreal ginkgo]

I still don’t get how you would get down without immediately exploding on impact though

[balmy pier]

you can just land into the magnet

probably harder than landing up there

but regardless, its a pointless thing to do

[unreal ginkgo]

Lethal Company players trying to perform bullshit

[raven patrol]

I think it could be made cheaper, its current 80 credit price still feels too expensive. Back when it was just TZP and Jetpack, TZP had its niche for transferring 2 handeds, but now with Cruiser you are better just saving for Cruiser. Making TZP cost 50 or maybe even less would make it be the cheap consumable option

[marble spruce]

can you buff radar boosters /srs

i have no idea how

but like

i really like them and i wish they were more useful

maybe making them have more visible range on the monitor would be cool

[daring oar]

i was gonna make them work with the 2 teleporters

[marble spruce]

that too

yes

[daring oar]

but apparently a mod already exists to do that

[marble spruce]

yeah

enhanced radar booster or w/e

its cool

[daring oar]

that's the only change i'd make to them, so as long as that mod works, i don't think i really need to do anything

[marble spruce]

but i feel like it still kinda falls short

as a utility item

[daring oar]

radar boosters have "some" added niche in that they set coilheads on cooldown

so they get stunned for 20 seconds now, instead of 5.6875 (flashes normally dont last as long as full stuns)

[marble spruce]

thats fair

[daring oar]

that's about as long as a stun grenade

which is 24.375

[marble spruce]

being able to inverse a bunch of boosters and then teleport them back into ship is super fun if you're Ship Guy™️

[daring oar]

oh actually i lied

[daring oar]

another thing i wanted to do was make them attract random lightning

like lightning rods

they are already conductive, but I mean that within a certain range, even the random lightning that instantly strikes the map itself

would hit the radar boosters instead

i think that'd be nice

especially if you could warp them back on to the ship at the end of the day

you could also ping them constantly to attract dogs

and get them struck by lightning

[marble spruce]

wtf thats true

that would be cool

[raven patrol]

EnhancedRadarBooster still works afaik

You cannot Inverse Boosters with it, instead what happens is if the Ship Camera is pointed at a Booster, the Inverse Teleporter brings players to the Booster instead of randomly on the map

I really like this interact as it buffs Inverse too

[daring oar]

ehhh that feels too strong

you can just carry a radar booster in a belt bag or something and drop it in the middle of the map when you're ready to go back to ship

and immediately put yourself back exactly where you need to be

it is cool as a feature but i think it obsoletes a bit too much of the gameplay

it's sort of the problem with cruisers and jetpacks

[marble spruce]

huh

[daring oar]

where they are undeniably fun but they do bypass a lot of the game's design

[marble spruce]

i think you're thinking of a different mod ngl

enhanced radar booster just lets you inverse them normally

it doesnt teleport players or whatever

[raven patrol]

Does this really help that much with transfers? You get to get to facility for free but have to bring stuff back

[daring oar]

• Radar Booster can be teleported to random location in facility by Inverse Teleporter.
• When Radar Booster selected on Ship Monitor and Inverse Teleporter activated Player will be teleported to selected Radar Booster.

does both

[marble spruce]

oh i see

i didnt know that

tbh that sounds kinda cool lol

[daring oar]

well it's true that loot transfer is the limiting factor

[marble spruce]

but strong

[daring oar]

but then you have the cruiser and jetpack to optimize loot transfer

and so you've kind of optimized foot travel out of the picture

at least mostly - obviously you will always be walking in this game

have to take the stuff out of the building before it can be transferred to ship

etc

[raven patrol]

I think it is fine, it is a niche endgame situation that is not a priority buy

Inverse has 210 second cooldown too

Not like you can just spam this to travel anywhere, it probably will be faster to walk back on most moons if there is like 40 seconds or higher on the cooldown left

Anyway though these are all configs in EnhancedRadarBooster, if you think Inverse targeting Boosters is OP you can turn it off

[raven patrol]

EnchancedRadarBoosters also does this

You can configure how much of a range boost it get, if any

[analog cypress]

no update

no update at 10PM

https://tenor.com/view/mario-super-mario-bros-depression-sad-mario-and-luigi-gif-14815881022592239601

[runic cobalt]

Update coming out at 7:45pm

[balmy pier]

update coming in 52 minutes

[analog cypress]

there's still hope them

https://tenor.com/view/update-is-today-update-is-tomorrow-update-wakanda-tchalla-gif-5630318163439022771

[unreal ginkgo]

Fnaf will be real in five minute

[analog cypress]

idk what you'll think about this suggestion

But what if you made 120% sell rate at the company true

[unreal ginkgo]

BuyRateSettings allows u to do this

[analog cypress]

yeah, it's the only reason i use that mod

I customized to have 2% chance of randomly the rates soaring to 120%

it's a cool mechanic in my opinion

would also give this mechanic a utility

[daring oar]

it would be cool for lore consistency but i've decided against it before for the reason you just mentioned

overtime effectively makes any scrap you sell over the limit worth 120% value

though, if i had to guess, the overtime bonus is probably a carryover from the days when company price used to fluctuate

[analog cypress]

it's a fair trade off, you sell earlier, lose the chance to get a good/bad day

accumulating scrap is more advantageous for experienced players, but noobs (like me) would benefit more from this random mechanic

[daring oar]

because the $15 extra per day makes sense when selling on any day is a reasonable choice, depending on the company's price

but in the final game there's no universe where +$15 is better than the hundreds you lose from selling at 70% value

[analog cypress]

well, it's just weird that Zeekerss left this

[wind spoke]

I think it might be interesting if masked did the stun animation sometimes while it thinks it is alone (seeing it twitch in the darkness facing away from you)

[marble spruce]

[daring oar]

v0.1.0

• Initial pass on moon balance
• Several new options for enemies and items
• Reworked foggy weather
• Reworked infestations
• Oh hey, a wiki

[marble spruce]

buttery stancakes my goat

[daring oar]

i didn't finish writing the page for artifice or titan

my brain is mush

it was not going to be unmush before 10 pm

and i've been delaying this update for hours just coalescing my thoughts into the wiki

i will pick it back up later

i am most interested to know how the store price changes and the weather changes sync in multiplayer - they should work "mostly ok" but they might require a little more elbow grease in the future to ensure proper syncing

[marble spruce]

im honestly surprised you left offense's power count alone

not a criticism or anything

ive always just found it interesting, bc assurance/offense/adamance respectively have power counts 6, 12, and 13

offense has a really weird jump that isn't very linear between the moon tiers

i made it 10 bc of that

[daring oar]

offense has kind of rightfully earned a reputation for being super dangerous

and i didn't want to just nerf that danger

[marble spruce]

i feel like it will be regardless because of the enemy weights

[daring oar]

adding masked to the pool sort of helps, because they are a lot less threatening than coils and thumpers, and reduce the spawn rate of those

[marble spruce]

its a lot of crawler and spring action

and maneater

[daring oar]

well keep in mind that maneater and coilhead both had their power level increased

[marble spruce]

ah

i thought i remembered you debating higher coil head powers with me before lol

like you said it made sense it was 1 because they work in pairs

i always thought it should be higher because they're invincible enemies that sprint towards you and instakill you lmao

[daring oar]

i dont remember saying that

i've always been a believer in increasing coilhead's power level

i think that, as of the v60 nerfs, they are a lot less demanding of increased power

they are "fine" at 1, now that you can get away from them while they are recharging

but i'd still personally make them power level 2

[jagged nexus]

I'm guessing the weight rebalance for the Yield Sign would be intended to pair with TerrasRebalance which reduces the weight of the Shovel and Stop Sign?

[daring oar]

no i just think a 42lb weapon is almost useless

[jagged nexus]

I agree

lol

[daring oar]

and leafar suggested swapping its weight with the chemical jug

which sounded good enough to me

[jagged nexus]

Also the Foggy Weather Rework being configurable like the Mineshaft Variants in Chameleon could be cool, if you can't figure out custom moon support

[daring oar]

it would have to be implemented on a case-by-case basis

i disabled foggy weather's object

instead i adjust the volume on the actual moon

which requires a hierarchy search

[runic cobalt]

there's only like a million custom moons, you got this

[jagged nexus]

Lmfao

[unreal ginkgo]

I can see why Mrov is not as interested in LethalRichPresence lol

[runic cobalt]

that one just needs custom moons to be able to put feedback back into something like the data tags batby was cooking a while ago that he can read

but the problem is similar

[daring oar]

new foggy is extra cool on embrion and adamance

embrion looks awful in screenshots but in action it's pretty awesome

it looks a little weird on vow because it doesn't fog up the valley

i might adjust that in the future

[marble spruce]

OH

i should fix that on my end at least

the volume on vow is kinda weird yea

[signal stream]

I love data tags I wish they we’re real

[daring oar]

if you would like to suggest a way for me to scene search for a moon's volume object based on data tags i am all ears

https://tenor.com/view/katlo-ren-cat-cute-big-ears-gif-15733794

jokes aside

[signal stream]

I forget whats the volume object

[daring oar]

it is too much of an undertaking for me

[runic cobalt]

Sky And Fog smthn

[daring oar]

this object

[marble spruce]

ugh

[daring oar]

on all the vanilla moons, it's where zeekerss sets the color and density of the fog

[runic cobalt]

so thats why there were 2

[daring oar]

there is no telling what custom moons do with their volumes

[marble spruce]

buttery can u pls do me a favor and show me the ladder trigger here on offense
i screwed up and im having a hard time lining it back up

[signal stream]

Whats on that object

[marble spruce]

huh

[runic cobalt]

Sky And Fog? just a Volume component

[signal stream]

why can’t you just get that again

[marble spruce]

oh wtf

[wind spoke]

typo in config

[daring oar]

oops

btw i know about the typo in the titan description

says 28-31 scrap -> 22-35

the 22 is a typo

it's 28-35

[runic cobalt]

uh, dunno, i think buttery's problem mainly is just that it doesn't guarantee that whatever volume you find is the one that controls fog for custom moons

[unreal ginkgo]

I thought radar boosters were $60 in vanilla wtf

Am I misremembering

[daring oar]

yes, there are multiple volumes per scene

and there's also no guarantee they follow the vanilla format either

[signal stream]

can you not like figure that out

This is probably me

[jagged nexus]

Nah they are I'm pretty sure lol

[daring oar]

there's also no guarantee that my way of adjusting the volumes will look good on custom moons

[jagged nexus]

I remember them always being 60 dollars

[wind spoke]

its supposed to be stun grenades

[daring oar]

the typo is radar booster @jagged nexus @unreal ginkgo

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh I see lol??

[daring oar]

it's supposed to say stun grenade

[unreal ginkgo]

That's funny

[daring oar]

i missed this description

[jagged nexus]

Ah yeah I saw that but then Narpy got me sidetracked

XD

[daring oar]

i do some kind of hacky shit with weather

[unreal ginkgo]

I do find this nerf weird tho considering how

1. Expendable they are
2. How the full purchase stacks up high quick when you're buying multiple of them
3. Easy to miss actively moving targets

[daring oar]

i dont apply any patches to the first weather call that occurs on each client

in the future i think i need to just rewrite weather to be host authoritative

(which will probably make it unusable with weather tweaks)

[unreal ginkgo]

I still get uneasy going outside with a stun grenade late in the day because I know it's easy to miss an aggravated forest keeper

[daring oar]

you can just turn it off if you don't want it

that is why it's a config setting

but anyways

[unreal ginkgo]

I know, I'm just curious behind ur thought process

[daring oar]

it's $40 for a couple of reasons

[unreal ginkgo]

That's why I was asking

[daring oar]

i want to make some other items appealing to use

in vanilla you can afford over 13 stun grenades for the price of 1 zap gun

with these changes, 1 zap gun is 5 stun grenades

radar boosters got cheaper and their flash function is more useful on coilheads

[jagged nexus]

The Zap Gun is never worth buying with the Vanilla pricing, the way I always have gotten them is through Code Rebirth crates lol

Cus I'm not wasting 400 credits XD

[daring oar]

stun grenades being $30 isn't really an issue

but i think they are worth $40

[jagged nexus]

Even though UsefulZapGun makes them amazing

[unreal ginkgo]

Idk what Zeek was smoking taggin the zap gun at $400

[daring oar]

well that's the thing

it was $200 in v9

i just reverted the random huge price nerf he did at some point

lol

[unreal ginkgo]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1261361675710496912/1332218169573507091/hellobro.gif

[daring oar]

all of the price adjustments i did in the store were just reverting changes from previous updates that i dont agree with

with the exception of the jetpack discount thing

i just feel like it makes sense that jetpacks would have a reduced max sale price

since he reduced ladders (for some reason)

[unreal ginkgo]

Cruiser is $500 and Jetpack is $1000 in my modpack, I agree with the changes he made

[daring oar]

and jetpacks completely break the game as-is

[unreal ginkgo]

Ya

[daring oar]

to be honest i feel like the jetpack is more like $1200-1500 value

but above all else, the biggest thing is just reducing discount effectiveness

[unreal ginkgo]

Purple had it at that at one point, but it completely killed the fun factor of getting jetpacks

I don't wanna be spending an arm and a leg for one jetpack lol

[daring oar]

being able to afford like 5 jetpacks because you get lucky and they are marked down to $180 is kind of dumb

because then those 5 jetpacks will last you the rest of the game basically

anyways

reducing the max discount also reduces the average discount

so you will more often be paying for jetpacks at full price, or at least at a smaller more reasonable discount

[jagged nexus]

I feel like the default Zap Gun price is cus Zeekerss probably had plans for it to be useful at some point, then he never really did anything with it and it got left in Purgatory

Even with Fumo's mod it's not with 400 dollars

[daring oar]

zap gun used to be an essential tool

vents didn't exist and instead you'd have to use the "zap gun" to patch over anomalies that would make the map "unstable"

instability would cause enemies to spawn

[jagged nexus]

I never used it even when I started way back in v40

Ah I see

Was that in v9?

[daring oar]

that's why the zap gun is called the PatcherTool still

internally

[jagged nexus]

Or wait maybe it was v4

v4 didn't have naturally spawning enemies

[unreal ginkgo]

I didn't play v4 (Or was it v2?) enough to see the intruders spawn from anomalies

Was it even in the game at that point?

[daring oar]

but when he completely redesigned the game, zap guns needed a brand new use case, which turned into a stun gun instead

[unreal ginkgo]

Aside from the default map

[daring oar]

i havent really played the alphas

so i dont know all of the differences between them

zap gun would've already been transformed by v9

im not sure if v4 has the instability + anomalies mechanics

[jagged nexus]

so v4 probably had it

[daring oar]

either version of v4

one of them at least has the old clipboard that explains this mechanic

[unreal ginkgo]

It's still interesting to me that brackens went from anomalies to animals, which is probably why they're the most iconic Lethal Company entity (Not to me though)

[daring oar]

but the main reason i know this is because zeekerss uploaded dev footage of this

[unreal ginkgo]

They still have traits of what they once were

[daring oar]

you can see instability, see him using the zap gun on anomalies, see a "red pill" spawn out of one, etc.

in his early footage

[raven patrol]

I wanted to ask about Jetpack by the way, I saw you have an option enable v49 Jetpack physics, is this basically your v49Jetpacks mod without the bug fixes?

[signal stream]

Also has the ui in the alpha no

[daring oar]

oh shit i knew i forgot something

i meant to put jetpack fixes in the dependencies

v49jetpacks has absolutely no fixes

it just rolls back the physics

i will probably deprecate v49 jetpacks because this mod is going to be the only v49 jetpack mod i maintain going forward

[unreal ginkgo]

Speaking of, are you interested in restoring the jetpack's behavior in the v50 beta

In this mod, I guess

[raven patrol]

Why would you want that

[daring oar]

v49 jetpacks is just the standalone version that works on vanilla

[marble spruce]

it will with mine at least

[daring oar]

this mod lets you network v49 jetpacks to all clients

[marble spruce]

so thats something

[unreal ginkgo]

Because I don't like the v49 nor stable v50 jetpacks
I really liked how clunky the v50 beta jetpacks were

[wind spoke]

masked

[daring oar]

if you wanted

[daring oar]

no because they are no fun at all

to me

a long time ago i thought about making adjustments to the jetpack

[wind spoke]

this might be better for masked fixes

I don't know

[daring oar]

making it fly worse as you were carrying more weight

[unreal ginkgo]

Wait this is peak actually

[wind spoke]

that would be cool

[daring oar]

and bringing back the long warmup period when you were trying to take off

and maybe i will still do that, now that this mod gives me an avenue to release it

[raven patrol]

In the config for that mod you have an option to patch the ““overheating”” explosions to make for a cleaner v49-esk experience

[unreal ginkgo]

Jetpacks need a nerf in one way or another, which is why I keep its bugs enabled in my modpack (Sorry, Purple)

[marble spruce]

oh lord i just realized this mod probably fights with mrov's foggy patches

[daring oar]

well, it's complicated

[unreal ginkgo]

Thankfully JetpackWarning makes it a lil less annoying

[daring oar]

zeekerss "fixed" overheating explosions

except he actually didnt

[raven patrol]

Zeekerss moment

[daring oar]

v49 doesn't un-fix what he fixed by default

iirc

but you have the option to unfix it, which makes explosions way more common

[raven patrol]

I see

[daring oar]

and also makes them more accurate to v49 behavior

that being said

if you're using jetpackfixes (and you should be)

it will most likely overwrite whatever setting you have in v49 jetpacks

because i actually fixed the overheat bug for real there

if you want the v49 experience you should set "MidAirExplosions" to "Always" in the jetpackfixes config

[raven patrol]

This is interesting, I always did think it was funny how 100 lb became nothing when you were flying

[daring oar]

my jetpack catalog is extremely confusing

and even now, sitting here explaining the deal with that, i feel like i am not making it any less confusing

but alas

[raven patrol]

I think I get it

v50 came with some fixes in addition to physics change, JetpackFixes takes the fixes to their full extent, v49Jetpacks has the option to restore v49 physics with either v50 fixes or no fixes

[daring oar]

if im understanding you right

then yes

that's what im getting at

both jetpackfixes and v49jetpacks fix a bug that was newly introduced in v50

jetpackfixes completely fixes overheat explosions, v49jetpacks gives you the option to un-fix it (and they probably conflict, which is why i say don't use the v49jetpacks setting and just turn on "always" in jetpackfixes)

and then this mod and v49jetpacks allow you to get the old physics back

with the crazy inertia

v49jetpacks is a client mod that will work in all lobbies

this mod requires everyone to use it, but will let you enable v49 jetpacks for all players as the host

[raven patrol]

I see

[daring oar]

sorry

i wish i had made this less confusing

[raven patrol]

I guess replacing v49 Jetpacks with this mod is how I slip this mod into my modpack

[daring oar]

oh yeah

most of the wiki is just the ramblings of an insane person

https://thunderstore.io/c/lethal-company/p/ButteryStancakes/ButteRyBalance/wiki/3068-infestations/

but i do recommend reading this page

to make sense of the infestation rework i finished earlier today

if you are creating a modpack it is probably information you will want to know

and it is less self explanatory than everything else

[unreal ginkgo]

You're acting like any of us here are any more sane

[runic cobalt]

that's a very nice wiki

insanity comes in different shapes and sizes

[daring oar]

lol wtf are you even doing here

[runic cobalt]

caching the mask so i dont do GetMask multiple times

[raven patrol]

Stop being so hard on yourself Buttery

[runic cobalt]

one of the masks i use like.. 5 times an update cycle

[daring oar]

i have just run myself a little thin this entire week

i am just so completely spent

no thoughts, head empty

[runic cobalt]

best feeling as a modder

no feeling

[raven patrol]

It’s only Monday give yourself a break 😭

[daring oar]

i will write the artifice page later but it is pretty much just "reverted all the v60 changes but didn't remove the v60 content"

also v50 beta turret spawn rates

since artifice's interior is really easy

and it gives ship player something to do

[daring oar]

i mean throughout all of last week up until now

[raven patrol]

What were v50 beta turrets

[daring oar]

0 min, 35 max, no major curve (pretty much just straight randomization)

[raven patrol]

So only slightly easier than Titan

[daring oar]

right around the time v50 left beta, he reduced it to 9 max, and changed the curve

50% of days have 0 turrets, 35% have only 1

and the remaining 15% range from 2-9

[vapid pier]

do we know how the interior stuff works with LLL n shit

[raven patrol]

I agree with this change, Artifice interior does feel too easy

[daring oar]

my complete lack of testing is one of the reasons this is 0.1.0

as long as lethallevelloader uses vanilla's dungeonFlowTypes list on SelectableLevel

and applies scalars to the RuntimeDungeon.Generator

it "should work more or less"

[raven patrol]

Missed this message, very interesting take. I cannot say I have ever heard this before

[unreal ginkgo]

You probably have never heard it before

[daring oar]

i've heard a couple people say they like v50 beta jetpacks because they were really easy to use

and like

yeah, i guess

[unreal ginkgo]

I'm pretty sure I'm the only person who prefers it due to how shit it is

[daring oar]

but they are just so boring

[raven patrol]

Super low skill ceiling

[raven patrol]

ig it does have that LC jank

[daring oar]

you burn half the battery just going to the entrance

and then you need the other half to take it back and recharge

[unreal ginkgo]

I think it's just because how low you are to the ground

Makes you more vulnerable to old birds, earth leviathans, and forest keepers

[daring oar]

i do think 40s is a good battery life for the jetpack

[unreal ginkgo]

and those entities are usually squashed by jetpacks

[daring oar]

it actually makes running out of battery at a bad time a real risk, if you aren't constantly recharging it

and constantly recharging it is reducing the margins on the time you are saving

but 40s battery is terrible with how slowly the v50 beta jetpacks got around

you had no choice but to keep recharging it, which was really annoying and still meant you'd basically never run out in a bad situation

i don't know if i will rework the jetpacks on the same scale i did way back in the v50 days

i tweaked them a lot in a mod i never wound up releasing

because i could never get them to a state i was completely happy with

but i think nerfing the battery life and making v49 physics an option are both major improvements

and i might add an option to bring back the slow takeoff speed because that was also a good change

having to warm up the thrusters for 2-3 seconds before you could actually get airborne

made instant evasive maneuvers way riskier and gave ground enemies a chance to intercept you

it was the best thing to come out of the v50 beta jetpacks

and then it disappeared in the next update when he super buffed jetpacks

Cool

[unreal ginkgo]

A chimera of the good aspects of the v50 beta and v50 stable jetpacks would be nice maybe

Shrug

[raven patrol]

More configs, we need more configs

Give them to us Buttery

[unreal ginkgo]

20 megabyte config file 🤑

Make that shit look like the Haunted Harpist's config (There's so many options while being vague that I don't even understand what the fuck any of it is trying to convey)

[raven patrol]

Have Buttery make the descriptions at the end of the week when her brain is legitimately mush

[unreal ginkgo]

Reddit copypasta tier descriptions

[raven patrol]

Oh btw Buttery before I forget, will JetpackFixes be a soft dependency? Part of me wants to not fix the v50 bugs so Jetpacks still have a bit of that jank

I do not want things to be too smooth and reliable

[daring oar]

it will be a soft dependency but depending on what you want

i would say just use jetpackfixes and enable always on mid air explosions

if you want jetpacks to explode when you fly too fast with them, that doesn't even happen consistently in vanilla anymore because of zeekerss' partial fix in v50

[unreal ginkgo]

Where's the non-newtonian dependency

[daring oar]

anyways this mod actually has no hard dependencies but it is intended for use with the dependencies listed in thunderstore

my vain shroud settings obviously dont work without yesfox

masked can be extremely laggy without mask fixes

[raven patrol]

I see

[daring oar]

butteryfixes has some things that affect balance

like bee hive price fixes, or mask hornet power level fixes

this mod will function on its own though

[raven patrol]

Anyway though what about Cruiser, are we gonna nerf that in some way? In meta play it is more powerful than Jetpack at this point, if a HQ WR attempt does not get enough credits for Cruiser + Artifice it is a reset

[daring oar]

idk

it is a dumb answer to your question but my party just plays without practicing cruiser jumps

so most of the time, a cruiser jump is like a 50/50 of us fucking losing everything or clutching

[unreal ginkgo]

Huh?? The Cruiser is a lot less reliable than Jetpacks
One old bird or a pack of baboon hawks is enough to send it into orbit

[daring oar]

and driving on its own feels pretty fun and balanced

[raven patrol]

No that is fair, Jetpack is way easier than Cruiser tech

[daring oar]

idk how i'd fix the cruiser without ruining what makes it fun

cruiser jumps are really cool and a good reward for learning the tech IMO

even if they are consistent and reduce the need to deal with outdoor gameplay once you learn it

[unreal ginkgo]

I do think old birds should be able to see you in the Cruiser though
It's weird that they don't, lore-wise as well since they were programmed to kill anything and everything that breathes

[daring oar]

well

[unreal ginkgo]

I mean when you're seated

[daring oar]

that is more of a programming logic issue than a design issue

[unreal ginkgo]

If you're in the back, you're fine

[daring oar]

i think the entire cruiser's collider is the same object on the same layer

[unreal ginkgo]

That's an intentional design choice Zeekerss has stated

[daring oar]

so im not sure how you can give them selective vision into the front seats while not being able to see into the back

[unreal ginkgo]

But the seats also being a safe spot from old birds specifically is weird when forest keepers can target you

[daring oar]

vanilla already has some super hacky logic

[marble spruce]

lifetime warranty + 20% credit penalty when it explodes or gets left behind

[raven patrol]

HQ has a spot next to Artifice fire that avoids AI nodes relatively reliably. They turn off engine and put items exclusively in the roof and everything leaves it alone

[marble spruce]

but thats been done alrd

[unreal ginkgo]

Hold on what, the latter is a good change

What mod adds that

[daring oar]

most enemies are unable to collide with you if you're parented to the cruiser and the backdoor is closed

[marble spruce]

lifetime cruiser warranty

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh

[marble spruce]

it just fines you

when you lose it

[daring oar]

but you get parented to the cruiser if you are standing on top of it

so like

[marble spruce]

it basically treats the cruiser like a ship upgrade which makes perfect sense to me

[daring oar]

the kidnapper fox's tongue breaks if you're standing on top of the car and the backdoor is closed

[unreal ginkgo]

Tbf the kidnapper fox was canned too early for Zeek to have noticed this, so

[daring oar]

because those two conditions would be true if you shut the backdoor on the fox's tongue while you're in the back storage area

[jagged nexus]

I really blame the Competitive community for the fact the fox isn't coming back in Vanilla

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh yeah, another thing that would be a good balance change

[daring oar]

i dont blame anyone

i just cry

it's easier that way

[unreal ginkgo]

Being able to close the ship doors while the kidnapper fox is dragging you to hell

[unreal ginkgo]

Same Buttery, same

[jagged nexus]

It was really just the shroud system that needed adjustments and the optimizations we have now for the Vehicle Controller stuff tbh

[daring oar]

i dont think the fox's tongue prevents you from closing the ship doors

[runic cobalt]

i blame everyone

[unreal ginkgo]

It does, intentionally or not

[runic cobalt]

i heard complaints from basically everyone

[raven patrol]

From what I heard they cared about Fox the least, it was casuals that were complaining. Competitive knew the cheese in the corner of the ship to have it dead in seconds

[marble spruce]

i mean

[unreal ginkgo]

Literally everybody wouldn't shut the fuck up about it

and they weren't yapping in a respectable manner either

[marble spruce]

this is precisely how i remember it tbh

[runic cobalt]

jetpack and foxes, everyone was just being very annoying about em both

[jagged nexus]

I only ever complained about the shroud system being too much, I loved the fox

[unreal ginkgo]

I'm also at fault for treating v60 like shit

[signal stream]

it was the whiny babies who we're complaining
from what i saw of it it aligned very closely with the competitive community but not exclusively

[jagged nexus]

Still love the fox, it is such a derpy and cute enemy

[raven patrol]

Well competitive is not literally everyone, you are painting some pretty board strokes

[marble spruce]

bread immediately was telling people the fox isnt too big of an issue with high quota stuff and there were multiple ways to cheese it

so it wasnt really comp players

it was a ton of casual players complaining about it iirc

[daring oar]

and as much as i love the fox

[unreal ginkgo]

I'm not in the competitive scene, so I heard complaints about them from everyone

[daring oar]

i do not want to misrepresent the truth

the fox was absolutely awful for casual players

[runic cobalt]

not gonna pretend i didnt, i dun remember and i wont claim i didnt complain lol, but i remember it was a mass pile of just basically everyone

[daring oar]

in its v56 state

[jagged nexus]

Yeah it was horrible when it existed in Vanilla and felt too rushed

[unreal ginkgo]

Was it because of the ship bug allowing vain shrouds to draw near it?

[daring oar]

i think it is easy enough to fix, and i hope (but no longer expect) that one day zeekerss will be interested in fixing it

[raven patrol]

Well yeah, all its nerfs did not work 😭

[daring oar]

because it's very cool, when you are not getting stomped by bugginess

[runic cobalt]

the funniest parts were people looking at the jetpack and being like "im quitting the game, it is so unplayable", like it aint dat deep

[daring oar]

but i think pulling it out of v60 was definitely fair because it had a tendency to make the game completely unplayable if you got unlucky

[wind spoke]

yeah

[marble spruce]

they were playing the wrong game lol im ngl

[signal stream]

Zeekerss seems to really struggle with confidently acknowledging that a lot of feedback is useless as hell

[jagged nexus]

Oh god the complaints about the Jetpack nerf, he nerfed it for emphasis on the Cruiser honestly

[daring oar]

other way around

[vague pewter]

Hey @daring oar do you know if your meleefixes mod is compatible with https://thunderstore.io/c/lethal-company/p/Entity378/HexiBetterShotgunFixed/ ?

[wind spoke]

every time zeekerss nerfed it he buffed it again in some way

[daring oar]

he nerfed the jetpack in v50 before the cruiser was added

[marble spruce]

yes

it is

[vague pewter]

tyty gobbless

[unreal ginkgo]

Without the bugs... kidnapper foxes are really not a big threat lol
People should've given them a chance, and Zeekerss shouldn't have had his ears plugged towards the (Though understandable) complaints

[signal stream]

this comment in isolation means nothing

[jagged nexus]

Oh really?

[daring oar]

but he said part of the reason he added the cruiser is because after the jetpack nerfs got such vitriolic response that he decided to revert them

[vague pewter]

Just wanted to check b4 installing it and blowing everything up lol

[daring oar]

he wanted to add something else to fill the same gap as the reworked jetpack did

[raven patrol]

Geez everyone came out of the woodworks for Kidnapper Fox discussion, hot button topic

[runic cobalt]

coulda just been that the voices were too loud, its a bit insane how many people kept insistently complaining about the things that i'd maybe have just done the same thing as him

[marble spruce]

hexishotguntweaks also makes the bullets not look like a debug feature

[runic cobalt]

not out of like feedback but just out of wanting people to stop

[daring oar]

last i checked, this mod prefix cancels the method i patch

[marble spruce]

shameless self plug but yea

[signal stream]

well yeah the dumbest babies cry the loudest

[unreal ginkgo]

Probably because it's just interesting to talk about

[daring oar]

so tl;dr yes it is compatible, although my mod doens't change shotgun behavior at all, it's just hexibettershotgun (my logic is ignored)

[unreal ginkgo]

Speculation is a helluva drug

[wind spoke]

anyways the fox wasn

fuck

[jagged nexus]

In all honesty I don't fault him for this. The game blew up way more than he anticipated and he's a one man dev team. I feel like he probably feels he holds a lot of responsibility when people dislike a change he makes and it's a shame

[wind spoke]

I didn't mean to send

[unreal ginkgo]

The fox wasn't fuck

[signal stream]

not much of this is actual speculation tbh

[runic cobalt]

what update was the jetpack craziness again?

[unreal ginkgo]

v50 beta

[marble spruce]

v50

[wind spoke]

I don't think the fox was the main issue I think the vain shrouds were

[runic cobalt]

ah right, the beta

[daring oar]

absolutely

[unreal ginkgo]

Everybody should've pointed fingers toward vain shrouds, yeah

The kidnapper fox was in a good state

[jagged nexus]

I loved how funny Easter Eggs were in the V50 beta tbh

[raven patrol]

In hindsight yeah

[vague pewter]

Do you mean like the tracers they add? I haven't actually tested this new hexi fixed ver, but I know how the older one works

[unreal ginkgo]

Though I'm still sad to see that kidnapper foxes camping on the ship like masked was just a bug

[marble spruce]

yea its just a nitpick lol i think the red bullets look strange xd

[signal stream]

its not about what people were pointing fingers at period

[jagged nexus]

Yeah, dopa's mod makes the tracers feel vanilla

[signal stream]

it's how they were doing it

[jagged nexus]

I recommend

[vague pewter]

makes sense bc the vanilla shotgun is so different, I really just wanted the meleefixes and then thehexi guns

[marble spruce]

yeye they work together

[unreal ginkgo]

That too, but there were still a lot of fingers on the fox instead of the real culprit: vain shrouds

[marble spruce]

i use them both

[signal stream]

the point of an early access game and a public discord is to get feedback on the changes

what was given was not feedback, it was aggravated shit-talking

[jagged nexus]

Best combo for shotguns imo

[unreal ginkgo]

What did you expect from a playerbase composed almost entirely of redditors

[wind spoke]

from my perspective the vain shrouds were made so that people wouldn't go to the same 2 moons until the paid ones but the problem with this is on the paid ones you can't really switch without a major loss of money

[vague pewter]

Might have to try it, I kinda like the tracers though bc they show where the boolets hit

[unreal ginkgo]

This is a joke btw

[jagged nexus]

Unfortunately it's cus the game blew up so much in the v40-v49 era as if it was a fully released game

[daring oar]

i can see why some people thought that

[marble spruce]

that icon narpy made is so cute

i love it

[vague pewter]

Also on the topic at hand for my 2c having never played with the fox but from what I've read the fox seemed fine (if a lil close to the ship) but yeah the shrouds seemed insane to keep up with

[daring oar]

but i dont think this was ever actually zeekerss' intention

[wind spoke]

maybe not

[daring oar]

nothing about how the system was programmed feels that way (although this is just my personal analysis, obviously i am not in his head)

[raven patrol]

It does stink that valid criticism was drowned out by the crybabies and now nuanced discussion is hard to do

[daring oar]

i think the biggest point of confusion was probably how weed killer functioned

[wind spoke]

yeah

[daring oar]

the shrouds and fox are some of the most confusingly implemented systems in the game

and they are very cool and i love them

but it is extremely difficult to explain and it is a maze to learn those mechanics

and a lot of misinformation was being shared, or a lot of intentional behaviors being misunderstood and reported as bugs, etc.

[unreal ginkgo]

You mean maize :trollface

[jagged nexus]

It wasn't even this

[daring oar]

on top of everyone (rightfully deserved, but not rightfully done) complaining that the fox made the game borderline unplayable

[jagged nexus]

To me I hated the system cus Shrouds would grow so out of control, and weed killer was borderline useless at the time

[daring oar]

there was a complete maelstrom of correct and incorrect information

[jagged nexus]

you would have to buy so much

[daring oar]

community discussion was a disaster for weeks

[signal stream]

in fairness unity has nothing directly to support saving changes to scenes at runtime like that. i dont blame the code for being pretty cooked

[jagged nexus]

you could spend so much time spraying shrouds, and by the next land they were all back

[daring oar]

and i feel like it's fair enough for zeekerss to want to distance himself from the whole shitshow

[jagged nexus]

It felt like a rushed system that wasn't tested well

[raven patrol]

Doesn’t help the hitboxes were janky and Weedkiller killed like 3 Shrouds max per bottle, it was pretty bad at its job

[wind spoke]

this might be false but I think vain shrouds staying on the same moon might be a reference to a rumor during v50 that once an old bird spawns somewhere it stays on the moon in the same place

[daring oar]

even if it is sad that the fox will likely never receive his blessing again

[wind spoke]

whats funny is that he delayed it a bunch of times

[unreal ginkgo]

I have never heard this?

[signal stream]

idk why you keep saying rush

its an early access game

[daring oar]

yeah i remember those days

[unreal ginkgo]

That doesn't mean you can't not rush certain things

[wind spoke]

maybe a coincidence then

[daring oar]

it was like, extremely early v50 days - it was pretty quickly proven wrong

[wind spoke]

probably

[wind spoke]

yeah

like day 1

[daring oar]

but i do remember some discussion that people thought old birds persisted across days

[wind spoke]

I remember the server going crazy

[daring oar]

because the bestiary kind of hinted at it (in-universe, not as a mechanic)

[unreal ginkgo]

I remember seeing an old bird for the first time on Adamance and thinking it was a half-buried statue that I initially missed

[jagged nexus]

It was just compared to everything else he added before hand. Everything else he released came out with really high quality. The Vain Shroud system was very messy. I get your point of course but it just felt lower quality while the fox itself was amazing. I fully respect the original intent and what it was going for it just needed rebalancing instead of him yanking the fox entirely

[unreal ginkgo]

It was positioned in a way below the tree's shadows that I thought it was half-buried

[wind spoke]

orrrr it might be making the early game moons harder as you go on

[jagged nexus]

It also had the issue of shrouds always growing in the ship

[daring oar]

to my knowledge vain shrouds weren't ever actually that buggy

[jagged nexus]

Leading to insta deaths on the ship from the fox

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh god I rememeber vain shrouds in the ship lmfao

[daring oar]

the main issue was them spawning inside the ship almost every single time they grew, which was a bug that he tried fix that never actually got fixed

but like, for example, a bunch of people reported that weed killer didn't work

[jagged nexus]

No they just grew out of hand, and would cause lag when a bunch of them existed

[daring oar]

and weeds would just reappear the next day anyway

[jagged nexus]

Yep

[daring oar]

which, yes, that is true, but that wasn't a bug and was actually a mechanic

[jagged nexus]

Weed Killer was so painful

[daring oar]

so people reported it to zeekerss and he said "we havent experienced this problem in testing" or something along those lines

[jagged nexus]

You could spray down so many weeds, and then a huge number would come back the next day

[daring oar]

which was also true