ButteRyBalance

[marble spruce]

then stuff like this wouldn't be a problem to begin with

idk how this mod handles it though

[raven patrol]

There is no mechanism, even in this mod, that makes Maneater’s growth meter deplete

This mod just does many things to slow it

[analog cypress]

as far as i'm aware, ButteryBalance slows down the growth rate from Man eater if certain conditions are met

the wiki states that Crying Phase for a sum total of 17 seconds seconds the Maneater turns into an adult. Currently there's no reset on growth rate

[marble spruce]

i would just personally solve this by making it so theres no possible way for a maneater to grow while a player is actively taking care of it regardless of what scares it (ergo making the meter go down or maybe even reset when you make it stop crying)

not by removing functionality that ties into its lore (the baby maneater is supposed to be afraid of death and violence)

[analog cypress]

I wished that the growth meter reseted or lowered if you were to feed Candy to the Maneater

it's a cool idea

[marble spruce]

lmao

thats so specific though and wouldnt work on t2 moons

[analog cypress]

except if she tweaked with the scrap spawn weights

oops

she's doing that

[marble spruce]

candy is a t3 themed scrap

[analog cypress]

dang it

feed pickles to the baby

even if it isn't useful, it's a cool interaction

[marble spruce]

lol @daring oar ive thought about this many times before but can you imagine tackling interior based scrap pools

would be such a nightmare but

imagine getting manor on offense for example and stuff like robots and lamps spawn instead of the usual stuff

would make runs a lot more interesting I think

but i would never pour my effort into doing that lol

otherwise it'd be in rebalanced moons already

[raven patrol]

Central Config actually has a similar thing to this, it has a config that lets you add scrap to moons based on what tags they have

[marble spruce]

yea but i was moreso thinking like

swapping out the pool entirely on a per moon basis depending on what interior generated

lmfaooo

[raven patrol]

[marble spruce]

yep theres a reason i never did it lol

but wouldnt that be so cool in gameplay

imagine getting lamps and paintings on manor march xd

would really make getting rare interior swaps a ton more interesting imo haha

[analog cypress]

That's a diabolical but cool suggestion

Vanilla March only has Factory btw

[marble spruce]

im aware

but i was talking in the context of my mod ig

which has that

[raven patrol]

I could see how this is done, you recycle all of the item spawn weights and just assign them to different item lists based on what interior spawns. Have each list ordered so 2-handeds in each pool share weights, etc

[marble spruce]

hmmm

ya i could do that but id have to reorder all the lists haha

not the worst thing in the world

thats definitely not a bad idea

ill have to note that down

[raven patrol]

I did a somewhat similar thing in my modpack, I divided my moons into 6 categories based on their difficulty and dominant interior, and have a general scrap spawn pool for each category that is then slightly changed for each moon. It was the best way to make each moon have unique-enough scrap spawns with only LLL

You could take this to the next level though

[eternal flax]

I see that you can move through the jester when it begins winding up, Would it be compatible with MoreCounterplay where you can place items on top of it?

[ripe tartan]

Are the man-eater patches compatible with Man Eater Damage Patch?

[daring oar]

well i like that it is an irreversible eventuality

thats why i didnt add any way for growth to be halted

[marble spruce]

im mixed on it

[daring oar]

or reduced at all

but i added a lot of factors that slow it down

[marble spruce]

i wouldnt mind if it was like a t3 enemy

but the thing is basically guaranteed on offense

and man it sucks

[daring oar]

maybe i could change its growth time depending on a moon's difficulty as well

i like its frequency on vow and offense

[marble spruce]

that would be really xool actually

cool

[daring oar]

but it can be a real handful yeah

[marble spruce]

growth rate being dynamic based on difficulty actually sounds like a really neat mechanic

[daring oar]

it can have 3 behaviors

https://thunderstore.io/c/lethal-company/p/HTS/CaveDweller/

default, aggressive, and very aggressive

[marble spruce]

you could probably fix up moon hazard ratings (if you havent already) and base it on that

[daring oar]

based on moon category

[daring oar]

i moved experimentation to D and march to C and i think the rest are basically fine where they sit

maybe offense would be A and rend B but i sorta like that the first A is the "first" paid moon

[wind spoke]

yeah

[marble spruce]

then u should totally base it on that bc i think it would be interesting for modded moons too

[daring oar]

each paid moon steps up exactly one tier from the previous

[marble spruce]

if you do a switch case for every hazard rating

from like D to S++

or smth

idk i just like the idea of that rating having more meaning lols

is a cool concept 2 me

[wind spoke]

that could be interesting not only for the maneater but possibly other entities

[marble spruce]

yeahh

[daring oar]

well TBH the scaling growth rate thing was spitballing on my part

im actually not that married to it

but it's easy to implement and i can always turn it off

so that's fine

[marble spruce]

i just think its a

[marble spruce]

i should make it so clay surgeons only spawn in pairs on S and beyond or something

that sounds really cool to me

[signal stream]

i know you only do stuff in the concept of vanilla but risk levels are very much a cosmetic thing

[marble spruce]

i know they are but you can still read them iirc

[signal stream]

feels a little off to use them as reference

[marble spruce]

it should theoretically be completely possible

[signal stream]

oh yeah im not questioning if it's possible

[marble spruce]

oh

[signal stream]

just more that the risk level is seemingly the result of the moons difficulty, this would be the other way around

[marble spruce]

the risk level is always manually set though right?

oh wait no

i forgot lll has an auto risk level thing

[signal stream]

in vanilla yes it's arbitrarily applied

by default lll tries to auto assign it but also many moons set it to things completely outside of the vanilla ones

[marble spruce]

do you have a better idea for doing something like this

isnt there a difficulty rating separate from the hazard level thats not visible to the player

[daring oar]

no

[signal stream]

no that's me throwing numbers around like a monkey

which only goes so far because i can't sample the actual level design of the moons

[marble spruce]

fair

[raven patrol]

You could do it on moons with a certain power level or higher (or this plus looking at the hazard rating)

[signal stream]

eg. the biggest difficulty diff between march and rend isn't it's balancing it's the blizzard

[marble spruce]

that's why i assumed hazard levels were the best option bc i assumed they were always set manually

but alas i forgor

[daring oar]

they are always set manually

[marble spruce]

not in lll

[daring oar]

but it's a string rather than an enum

[marble spruce]

some moons generate them dynamically

im pretty sure its default

[signal stream]

The issue is that even with the ones set manually

a lot of them are ""wrong"" lol

[daring oar]

even so

[marble spruce]

oh ya but this mod (and mine) improves them

arguably

[daring oar]

i can just fallback to the default if it's an unrecognized string

and not change the growth rate

[raven patrol]

What are you talking about Experimentation is 100% more dangerous than March

[daring oar]

and it's not really that major of an issueif the maneater's growth rate is lower than it "should be" on some custom moons

in my eyes i just don't think it's that much of a problem

but yeah

that's the main reason i said i wasn't married to the idea or anything

[marble spruce]

oh ya some moon dev would prolly think they're funny and enter in something completely random for the hazard rating

then my thing would not work

so thats fun

[daring oar]

im also just not super into the idea that different monsters will work differently on different moons in general

right now the only instance of that i've kinda got going on is the dynamic spawn settings for barbers

[signal stream]

just randomly spitballing but if you wanted a rough but reasonably consistent value i'd maybe consider inverse lerping the moons route price compared to the most expensive moon loaded and using that

[daring oar]

but that's because i think the mineshaft interior combines awfully with the barber's mechanics

[signal stream]

Wesley's Moons ||B.... for bees||

[raven patrol]

I do not think Maneater should have a way to reverse its growth meter personally, it is supposed to be a ticking time bomb. Besides people are getting good at killing them anyway

[daring oar]

the food old days

[raven patrol]

[daring oar]

anyways yeah that's my philosophy as well

[wind spoke]

also butlers spawning more on mansions but thats similar to the maneater for mineshafts

[daring oar]

but i do think it shouldn't be so easy for it to transform if you're playing your cards right

[signal stream]

the game yearns for more interior powered control

[marble spruce]

i didnt rlly think about the negative consequences of this but i can see how this would be unintuitive

i kinda just saw it as like a custom night fnaf ai level thing

lol

[raven patrol]

Ye, I think you are on the right track already with what you already have added

[daring oar]

and obviously it is a massive problem if you can walk into the building on offense and get killed by a maneater at like 10 AM the first time you encounter it

so that's what i tackled first

[marble spruce]

that has happened to me like twice

lol

[daring oar]

theoretically the problem is still there

[marble spruce]

its a shame i havent gotten to try this yet

[daring oar]

if both entrances spawn on the opposite end of where the maneater spawns and a player enters the building

it could step on a landmine and cause itself to cry

[marble spruce]

gg

[daring oar]

which normally gives you almost 4 minutes to find it and calm it down before it transforms

but offense is 1.25x mineshaft

and even if you found it 2 minutes in and calmed it down, that's half your bar gone

and i don't love that possibility

[signal stream]

the solution to that is cheating imo

[daring oar]

because I do want to provide for the rare occurrence that you will show up in the interior and have a freshly grown maneater to deal with

so i dont want to just disable it completely

[signal stream]

if a player isn't in the area it probably shouldn't start crying

[daring oar]

but i do want it to be far less common

[daring oar]

well right now i added a bunch of cheats already

[marble spruce]

you're evil

[daring oar]

if a maneater takes hits, it normally loses 60% of its transformation meter instantly

and also starts crying, which causes it to inevitably spiral into a transform

[unreal ginkgo]

This is just the vanilla maneater on a moon with a considerable amount of landmines (Which is most of them)

[daring oar]

my mod forces maneaters to be unable to cry if a player has never stepped foot in the interior before

and i also removed the instant transformation progress if they haven't encountered a player at least once before

so worst case, what can happen is once you step foot in the building

it can scare itself on a landmine

[raven patrol]

Very good compromises imo

[daring oar]

but then you still have the full 222.2222(222222...)s grace period to find it and soothe it before it would grow up

but then you still have a ton of its growth meter permanently missing

and there's no way to reverse that

maybe i should make the baby cap its growth meter at a certain value once it first meets a player

so if you don't find it for the full duration, then it'll transform, but if you do find it, you can still do a full parenting phase

idk

[raven patrol]

This is worse case scenario though, and LC is all about dealing with crazy rng. Plus with your other nerfs to growth meter you should be able to keep it under control for a while in even that worse case

[daring oar]

i like that lethal company is a game of bad scenarios that can happen

and there are very few scenarios that i dislike being able to happen at all

there are plenty of scenarios that i think happen too frequently

i think the game is more exciting to play when there is always this feeling that everything can go wrong and you have to do your best to push against it or get consumed by it

but i don't like that offense practically guarantees maneaters will transform before you can do anything about it in vanilla

offense is already the least fun interior for me because of all the unkillable coilheads and thumper spam

and adding the maneater which is almost unkillable and extremely persistent does not make that much better

but i think it'd encroach too much on "defanging" offense if i made it completely impossible for the transformation to happen offscreen

[signal stream]

This is a very rough vibe but I think every isolated encounter should have a reasonable way to manage and resolve it (avoiding it can be a valid option). And the difficulty comes with overlapping multiple of these at the same time

[raven patrol]

If I were to ever implement a way for the growth meter to deplete it would be where if you hold the baby for a long period to time (15 seconds) it becomes calm and very slowly drains its meter the more you hold it from that point, like it is being soothed by you cradling it

[daring oar]

well that's basically true for the maneater

i suppose

[signal stream]

just in general i mean

[daring oar]

the maneater has a really complicated AI once it's an adult, but the gist is it won't approach you if you watch it, and it loiters a specific area and only hunts people in its territory

you will practically never be attacked by it as long as you are always looking in its direction and moving away from it (sort of like a coilhead and sort of like a bracken)

the problem is just that it, like many other enemies, demands constant attention and any slip of that could get you killed

and im on the fence about how fun that actually is

[raven patrol]

I was actually about to mention this, you could tweak these values to make adult Maneater less aggressive. Apparently its territory enlarges over time with no cap until a player is within it, you could adjust this

[daring oar]

the game's difficulty definitely comes from monster combos, but combos like coilhead + bracken often make me just want to completely unplug from the game and go take off and start the day over

having to endlessly stare at a coilhead to keep it off of you, but know exactly when to turn around to stop a bracken is more frustrating than interesting

and the alternative is spinning in endless circles which i don't think is that fun either

it's actually kind of fucked up that vow is the only tier 1 moon that can spawn the coilhead and it also has the highest bracken spawn rate in the game

on that note

but that's neither here nor there

[raven patrol]

I think a lot of the free moons could have their monster spawn pools adjusted

[signal stream]

Sometimes being fucked is a reasonable conclusion in that regard but i do hear you. Honestly I think at that point the best solution might be more ways of empowering the player rather than changing the enemies. Lethal is obv. a game that thrives on not empowering the player but more items and interior mechanics that allows you to manage situations in a creative way that doesn't just lead to combat would be really cool to see

[daring oar]

yeah it is hard

i don't really want to incentivize combat that much

i am making a couple QoL changes that "buff" combat i guess

[signal stream]

more interior hazards that could be used in a way to help manage encounters would be so nice

[daring oar]

like letting you pop butlers with 1 explosion or shotgun blast rather than 2 or 1 + some shovels

[raven patrol]

Remove rare Coil Head from Vow
Remove rare Bracken from Offense
Remove rare Jester from March

Leave the exclusively insanity for the paid moons, not for bad luck on any moon

[daring oar]

and i want to reduce the kidnapper fox HP a bit so it can be more constantly killed with both shotgun barrels unloaded into it

[raven patrol]

Hard agree 7 hp is total overkill

5 is fine for its mechanics

[daring oar]

but both of those are kind of rare scenarios, and i just wanted to make them feel more rewarding when they occur

as far as actually fighting enemies goes, i don't want to incentivize it that much more than vanilla already does

but that does mean some other things require alternate methods of "combatting" them

curbing the maneater's transformation values to reward you for actually playing its minigame is an example of that, and i think it helps it feel a lot less "Ughh" to encounter

[raven patrol]

I really like FairAI for this, it makes the game more interactive and players can get crafty with baiting monsters without necessarily incentivizing combat

[daring oar]

i also reduced butler's aggression a lot as long as you are sticking in groups, or at least not trying to actively kill them

since they can feel kind of oppressive

[wind spoke]

maybe Jesters spawn rates could be increased on mansions then lowered on march

[daring oar]

i kinda like the idea of a jester happening on march just because it's so weird and anomalous

i've only ever seen it once

but with 4 entrances + a slightly reduced interior size, i think the possibility of countering it isn't actually that unrealistic

and it's only going to happen once in a blue moon anyway

[raven patrol]

Lowered? March Jester is 0.33%, Zeekerss just wants some players to loose the ultimate lottery ig

[daring oar]

i did remove coilheads on vow

im not sure how i feel about bracken on offense

[wind spoke]

oh wait I just remembered in vanilla that only facility spawns on march

[daring oar]

thematically i think the bracken fits

and imo it'd just feel a bit wrong without him being there

[raven patrol]

No Bracken on Offense just makes it crazy monster pool have some advantage to it

[daring oar]

but also, he does distract from the moon's big shtick which seems to be "you can kill almost everything but you have to be good at doing it"

coilheads are an exception to that

[raven patrol]

12 power, crazy spawn curve, and slow exterior with no real upside in vanilla

[daring oar]

and hygros

so the bracken isnt entirely out of place

but i can see it being frustrating practicing thumper kiting and then getting your neck snapped

lol

[wind spoke]

before I knew the spawnrates I remember thinking it was that desert moons have thumpers as the main enemy then brackens on forest moons

[daring oar]

well at some point, that was kinda true? sorta

[wind spoke]

somewhat

yeah

[daring oar]

the bracken has the highest spawn rates on vow and march

it's really only adamance that breaks the rule and it was added as post launch content

[raven patrol]

Offense Bracken is 1.42%, it is not as rare as March Jester but it does feel like a rare random ‘screw you’ event imo

[daring oar]

thumpers can spawn almost anywhere and would probably be more common in deserts if 2/3 desert moons weren't the first 2 moons in the entire game

[wind spoke]

I find adamance really interesting since its a little taste of the tier 3 moons

but as a tier 2

[daring oar]

it's too much a taste IMO

offense and adamance eclipses are way too punishing so i reduced both by 1 spawn per wave

and i also think adamance having 13 outdoor power is overkill so i reduced it to 10

[wind spoke]

that reminds me

[raven patrol]

Adamance needs to be scaled back imo, lower power levels and less loot to put it in line with the other moons. Free moon meta post v50 is just Adamance all the time

[daring oar]

adamance is still definitely the craziest outdoor experience of any moon but the fact it goes head-to-head with artifice for that is a bit sillyy

[wind spoke]

either forest giants should be removed on adamance or lowered a lot

[daring oar]

idk

[wind spoke]

since I think its interesting having it be the baboon hawk moon and giants kinda ruin that a lot

[daring oar]

if you reduce the forest giants you just increase the dogs and/or baboons

and the number one complaint i see about adamance is that everyone hates the baboon overload

[wind spoke]

oh?

thats my favorite part of it

[daring oar]

and the layout of adamance makes dogs a lot more threatening than they tend to be

[raven patrol]

I honestly feel like Embrion’s exterior is easier than Adamance’s at times, the valley is unusable after like 4pm. You basically have to know cheese strats to make the moon consistent

[daring oar]

there's a lot of places where progressing to/from the building is likely to make dogs further down your path aggro and interrupt you

and baboons are everywhere pissing off the dogs on their own

which causes the dogs to wind up going everywhere

[daring oar]

im actually a bit worried i might be making adamance too meta

[wind spoke]

I think thats an interesting effect that you don't really get that often but then the giants just run over and kill you, also there isn't as much cover as there is on march and vow

[daring oar]

i reduced the outdoor spawns and restored loot counts from the v50 beta

[raven patrol]

Wasn’t v50 beta loot better than release?

[daring oar]

yes

well, there's a bit of a history

[raven patrol]

Yeah that is bad, it needs less loot imo

[daring oar]

when it was first added adamance and artifice had the same loot counts

artifice just had better quality scrap

[raven patrol]

Ye, also explains them having the same power levels

[wind spoke]

I think that could be balanced toward baboon hawks just stealing it

[daring oar]

pretty quickly that was nerfed

[raven patrol]

You would need to modify the map for that, there are a lot of loot safe spots

[daring oar]

adamance ultimately launched with 19-23 items per day, and after v50 hit full release, he nerfed it to 16-18 in a hotfix a couple of days later

[wind spoke]

oh I didn't know that

[daring oar]

but IMO i dont think high loot counts on adamance are a problem

that moon is so crazy that it requires a good and organized crew to fully loot it anyway

and very often my friends and i fall into the trap of looting for way too long

[raven patrol]

Biggest is that Fire has no AI nodes so loot is safe there unless Baboons follow a player there

[daring oar]

and then dying before we can even get half of our scrap back to the ship

which causes our returns to be way lower despite the moon generating so much value

[raven patrol]

I assume you do not use cheese strats then

[daring oar]

depends on what you consider cheese strats

i know a couple of shortcuts to get up hills

and i know that you can climb the tree somehow

[daring oar]

but this is dumb and i dont do it

i'd rather just bring a ladder (and usually we do)

anyways i think adamance is probably the hardest free moon and really encroaches on being a tier 3, outside of the fact that it's free

[wind spoke]

I prefer to not learn use them

unless I discover them on my own

[raven patrol]

• Walking up the tree to get easy path
• Putting clipboard on top of ship lights to make Baboons get stuck on top of ship
• 2 or so ways to get slightly OOB
• That path by the cabin that lets you sorta walk along the wall of the valley (not really a cheese but I thought I should include it)

[wind spoke]

THE CLIPBOARD?

[daring oar]

we dont do clipboard cheese

[wind spoke]

that sounds like a rumor you would hear in some old forum

[daring oar]

idk what you mean by "slightly OOB"

[marble spruce]

not on mine uwu

[daring oar]

i know about the other 2 for sure but i've only used the 4th

[wind spoke]

probably stuff like getting on top of the hills

[wind spoke]

oh

thats why I didn't know that

[raven patrol]

You put the clipboard on the lights mast and the Baboon Hawks climb on top of the ship tying to get it, but they cannot so they get stuck. They are nearly harmless like this

[marble spruce]

the whole area is smoothened out so you can drive down there but it also made it way too strong for escaping enemies

so i added ai nodes all around that area

[wind spoke]

that is evil

[daring oar]

yeah i really dont like clipboard cheese

[wind spoke]

I must make sure none of my friends learn of that

[daring oar]

but there is basically no point in fixing it

if i fix it and don't make it an option then it is just going to generate strife

and if i fix it as an option (in this mod, where it would probably wind up going)

[raven patrol]

You can climb into the mountains presumably meant for decoration on the edges of the map for a somewhat long but safe route

[daring oar]

everyone who uses clipboard cheese is just going to turn it off

and everyone else wasn't going to do it anyway

so it's just there. a thing

[wind spoke]

that isn't that bad

[marble spruce]

i think its still nice for hosts to have the option to enforce it not being possible

but

[wind spoke]

that could work if your friends do clipboard cheese but the host doesn't want it

[marble spruce]

i get it

[daring oar]

i guess that's fair

i forgot that was a thing

nvm maybe i will patch it then

[marble spruce]

lol

[daring oar]

although

[marble spruce]

idk i find stuff like that super stupid so

i wouldnt mind a fix for it

[daring oar]

i need to see how it happens

[wind spoke]

also on most maps to get to the ship you would need to get into the enemies area

[daring oar]

iirc baboons are always owned by the host so i might not even have to network anything

if their scrap targeting is done on the server

otherwise it would definitely have to be a feature here

so i could network it to clients

but it would probably wind up being in this mod eitherw ay

because people will definitely want to turn it off

[raven patrol]

It will never not be funny to me how the Baboon cheese meant Bread put Clipboard in B tier on his HQ equipment tier list

[daring oar]

how on earth is walkie where it is

anyways

i basically wasted most of today not doing anything

i've just been super sluggish and also kind of sleepy

i was hoping the moon update would be done by now but i haven't even started on rend

[raven patrol]

Take your time, burnout is a beast

[daring oar]

i suppose so

but this is kind of blocking me from being able to play with my friends

because i'd like to have all of our rebalance stuff ready-to-go and networked

before we next play

so that is unfortunate

[wind spoke]

when you get to dine the clock should be added to the scrap pool there

maybe titan

[raven patrol]

They are efficient enough on their own that coordinated talk with Walkies is only needed for finding super hidden peices of loot with someone on the terminal

[daring oar]

i see

i would expect you'd just use the signal translator

for that

[wind spoke]

I'm more questioning lock picker

[daring oar]

lockpickers are good

imo once you are going to tier 3s you should always be carrying one to the fire exit

[raven patrol]

Locked doors are a big problem for HQ so players need them

[wind spoke]

oh

[daring oar]

you can bring a small pile of keys

[wind spoke]

yeah I guess thats fair

[daring oar]

but if you keep bringing keys you either risk wasting time bringing them back or losing them

keys are weightless so imo best practice is to just carry as many keys as you can fit and bring the lockpicker with you to fire on your first trip

[raven patrol]

They have a pile of keys on Cruiser they can quickly grab (it is Artifice only you know)

[wind spoke]

usually in my games we amass a small pile of keys

[daring oar]

if you wind up at rend, use a key or two, and then get stuck again without a lockpicker, going back to ship suuucks

at rend fire, anyway

on artifice it doesnt matter as much because you can usually just walk to main or jetpack to ship for keys

artifice also has good places to park the car and you can have it carry your keys

[wind spoke]

we leave them at the good hands shrine

[daring oar]

Lol nice

[raven patrol]

It only crops up when a few items are left, so time is of the essence and players can spare a slot. Translator is next to Walkie though

[raven patrol]

Anyway Rend is in a similar spot as Adamance imo, nerf its loot and make it cheaper to give Dine some breathing room and make Rend’s low indoor power more appropriate

I think we actually discussed this before

[daring oar]

i am doing weird stuff with rend and dine

on the surface i think it might come off as making the problem worse

i really dont know

but i think altogether, it has a chance at working

[raven patrol]

Consider me intrigued

[daring oar]

well like

i think the best days of rend/dine balance

were the v50 betas before dine starting getting nerfs again

although it was good in v56 too, when the cruiser was much more appealing to use on dine over rend

anyways

[raven patrol]

What was beta v50 Dine like compared to release, is there a big difference?

[daring oar]

back then rend and dine had almost equal profit margins, dine just had a small margin in average profits (think $1.4k per day vs $1.3k per day)

it wasnt perfect because nutcracker farming vs butler farming would close that gap pretty quickly

but my philosophy for rend/dine balance is i want them to be almost equals

with dine having very slightly more maximum potential in exchange for rend being safer

and rend being the "transition moon" from freebies into all the endgame stuff

[wind spoke]

the main difference were the traps

[raven patrol]

An understated issue for Dine imo is its higher quantity but lesser items, you need more transfers for nearly the same profit

[daring oar]

yes

i will be significantly increasing the quality of dine's loot pool

and not-insignificantly decreasing the quality of rend's loot pool

i will also give dine slightly more items + the fact it has a higher mineshaft chance means it'll get the +6 bonus *more often than rend

[raven patrol]

This is a huge shake-up but swapping Nutcracker and Butler spawns between Rend and Dine would do a lot

[daring oar]

but what i mean by this

i want to shrink rend's interior

[wind spoke]

ehhhh

[daring oar]

and that is going to boost its scrap density and make it way easier to loot

but i think it will sort of balance out

because it will let rend's low indoor powers have a better chance of populating the map and being more present as threats

and im hoping that the decrease in scrap quality is enough to offset the items being much easier to find

[daring oar]

as for this, i think nutcrackers are too inherent to rend's identity and butlers to dine

so i don't like the idea of swapping them

but i am trying to close the gap there

knives are worth a lot more if you use this mod's default settings

avg price increased from $35 to ~$56

[wind spoke]

something that I think is interesting is that when you'

fuck

[daring oar]

im going to adjust rend's pool to make nutcrackers less dominant of the spawn pool

[wind spoke]

misclick

[daring oar]

a small adjustment, like 25% spawn rate down to 20%

and then i think the biggest change (and im not sure how popular this will be, even with myself... i kinda need to see it in-game to get a feel)

im going to make nutcrackers resist death from shotguns or explosions

well, shotguns anyway

[raven patrol]

Very interesting

[daring oar]

i can probably do that without making explosions no longer instant kill

[wind spoke]

something that I think is interesting is that when you have a butler and a nutcracker after you, the butler is a bullet sponge and quite often just blocks the shot

[daring oar]

shooting a nutcracker will set it to 1 HP instead of killing it

which should give it enough time to do a berserk shot and kill you before *your shotgun is off cooldown

if you don't have any cover

i can not deny that shooting nutcrackers in the eye and watching them explode in a gorefest is really satisfying

[raven patrol]

I see the vision but yeah players will need to get used to it. Funny enough I see a lot of sweaty players instinctively use Shovels over Shotguns anyway (probably to save ammo for Bracken) so they may not mind too much

[daring oar]

but i think it is really bad for balance

the fact that one shotgun infinitely generates more shotguns is one of the things that lets nutcracker farming get out of control

even though knives infinitely generate more knives in the same way, nutcrackers don't spawn permanent murder bees...

[wind spoke]

this might be better for mask fixes but I think the masked should do more with their stun animation since its really cool

I really like how it twitches

but you don't really see it that often

[daring oar]

i think the 4 damage change will at least add some strategy to this

[wind spoke]

and it feels like a waste when you usually can kill it with a shovel

[raven patrol]

I am down for trying it

[daring oar]

you will need to survive 2 shots and double blast it while it's reloading

or you will need to shoot it and have a plan to survive the immediate following shot

before you can hit it again

meanwhile knives will keep the benefit of easy recursion

[raven patrol]

Could it be though where players go up to Nutcrackers with both a Shotgun + Shovel/Knife to quickly get the last hit in

[daring oar]

and knives will also be nice to use on nutcrackers

since you can control leaving it at 2 HP and getting the two last swings at the same time

and i buffed the attack rate + added auto swing so it's less of a QoL nightmare

and yeah

none of these changes affect the shovel

so the basic nutcracker fight will pretty much always be the same

[daring oar]

i could be wrong but i think you mostly just risk killing your friend with this strategy

shotgun hit detection is really weird though so maybe im just not accustomed to how it works

any time i've fired a shotgun with my friends even remotely nearby it has killed them

[wind spoke]

I think generally the masked should have more unnatural behaviors

[raven patrol]

I mean just you, Shotgun on one slot and Shovel in the other

[daring oar]

ah

[wind spoke]

that has its upsides and downsides

[daring oar]

well it's definitely true

[raven patrol]

It does have downsides, 2 slots and weapons needed

[daring oar]

but yeah

[raven patrol]

So it does not trivialize the change

[wind spoke]

also it requires a quick reaction time

[daring oar]

you'd need to carry 30lbs of weapons

[wind spoke]

much more skill based than just 1 shot

[daring oar]

or have both a shotgun and a knife in your inventory at the same time

and both of those, i think, are fair prices for getting in the one *cycle

i just want to encourage more planning and strategy

turning off your brain and oneshotting nutcrackers to infinitely generate "the nutcracker oneshot device" is dumb

[wind spoke]

that reminds me, butlers dying in 1 hit with the shotgun is good since the mask hornets balance it out

[raven patrol]

This is an aside, but I think Zeekerss overestimates how dangers Nutcrackers are, which sorta explains the Shotgun farming and Rend being kinda busted

[raven patrol]

Ye, plus it is a sort of trade for Nutcracker buff

[daring oar]

anyways my current thoughts are: i will allow this in the next big release since i think it's probably ok

but if it winds up feeling too trivial i can change it so doing a melee hit followed by a shotgun blast will still leave the nutcracker with 1 HP left

i think that borders on over-complicating things and having bad player feedback

and i don't think it'll be a major issue anyway, so for now i'd rather not

[raven patrol]

I do not either, just being making sure though

[daring oar]

also yea probably

tbf it at least makes sense that the kitchen knife is worth less money than the shotgun

from a "common sense" perspective, not necessarily game design

it is just weird

though

everything about nutcracker/butler farming, in a vacuum, feels fine

but i think all of those factors combined and then compared against each other creates a really bad feeling

[raven patrol]

Ye

[daring oar]

it is really satisfying to squish nutcrackers with one shotgun blast

and it feels like you earn that reward from having to kill that first nutcracker the hard way

the shotgun is definitely more valuable than a knife, so it makes sense it'd sell for more, and it makes sense you'd want to risk more value carrying it in to use it

etc.

on the other hand with butlers, it makes sense that they drop a knife worth money so they can fill a similar farming role to nutcrackers (since rend and dine are analogous to one another)

it also makes sense that they dump bees on you, since you're incentivized to deal with their mechanics rather than steamroll through them when they spawn

etc.

all of this stuff feels fine separate

[wind spoke]

I think butlers might be my favorite enemy

[daring oar]

but then you look at it like this:
"both moons have enemies that drop farmable weapons, but one costs $60 and is acquired at little-to-zero personal risk, the other costs $35 and spawns a permanent monster"

and now it feels bad

[wind spoke]

design wise

[daring oar]

shrug

they really cool

but for me i love old birds because i have a bias towards robot characters

and i think bracken is still my #2

[raven patrol]

This is why I proposed the Butler and Nutcracker swap, even though it breaks the themes it could solve balance rather quickly

We talked about that already though

[wind spoke]

brackens and jesters are the entities that scares me still (stuff like thumpers and other stuff might jumpscare me but not anything above that)

[daring oar]

yeah from a balance perspective i completely agree

i just think i can't separate rend from nutcrackers and dine from butlers

anymore

it's been status quo for too long

[wind spoke]

its just part of their identities

[daring oar]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[raven patrol]

If I ever do a rebalancing modpack of the moons that does not change everything (meaning I can keep spawns but change everything else), I may do this honestly. I am fine with changing the moon’s themes if it lowkey is for the better

[daring oar]

i might make it an option but it definitely wouldnt be enabled by default and i probably wouldnt use it

[daring oar]

also yeah it'd be really easy to do this in a modpack and experiment

[raven patrol]

My current modpack is way too deep for something like this 😭

[balmy pier]

b-but candy has a chance to spawn on march!!!

[raven patrol]

Checkmate

[balmy pier]

have you guys seen marchs default scrap spawn weight string btw

it is

[marble spruce]

rar

[balmy pier]

kind of bizarrely designed

[wind spoke]

I just remembered this

[balmy pier]

like its just the most off-from-zeekerss

[raven patrol]

2 handed out the wazoo that make Offense blush

[daring oar]

well the bigger problem with the whole "feed the maneater" thing is that you can't force it to eat scrap

and im pretty sure it doesnt eat scrap unless it's left alone in general

the metabolism setting is just a consolation prize for maneaters deleting potential value off the map

basically

[balmy pier]

technically that isnt true but you would have to wait like 21 seconds for it to lose interest after picking it up

[daring oar]

you get unlucky and lose some profit, but then the maneater is a bit less problematic, which might let you squeeze out a bit more value

so hopefully it doesnt feel as sucky anymore

[balmy pier]

so like, pick it up and bring it to a dead end, place the candy outside it with no other items nearby

after it loses interest in you, it should go to focus on the candy

now it is rng if it eats it

but its very likely it will happen

[raven patrol]

We simply do what NeedyCats does and have an order-able Maneater food, easy

(Joking)

[balmy pier]

spray it with weed killer

[daring oar]

i might've made feeding the baby items more of a balance mechanic

if there was a pre-existing mechanic to pull it off

[raven patrol]

Feeding it Weedkiller would be funny

[balmy pier]

ok weird suggestion

[daring oar]

but im definitely not interested in implementing a system for it myself

[balmy pier]

idk how youll feel about this one

[daring oar]

and i think it's pretty hard to balance deleting profit with keeping a maneater happy

that is the only thing that i would consider letting players reverse the transformation meter for

[balmy pier]

when i was first experimenting with the maneater, one thing i thought about was "does this thing get excessively interested in staring at an active radar booster?"

the radar booster turned on is something i could genuinely see capturing the attention of a baby

for quite some time

but it just
doesnt do that

[wind spoke]

https://tenor.com/view/choopo-jingle-jangle-keys-pay-attention-gif-5329561005981139666

[raven patrol]

irl human babies tend to stare a bright lights funny enough

[daring oar]

zeekerss addressed this problem on his own accord too

When talking with my friends, someone jokingly mentioned the idea of feeding the Maneater scrap to keep it tame, like feeding Shrimp. I had considered the idea before, but I determined it wouldn't work because the enemy would have to be over-powered for players to want to sacrifice the main objective.

which is probably why it is pratically impossible to encourage

it's a little weird it's a mechanic at all, because it's funny, but nearly impossible to observe as a player

[balmy pier]

"the enemy would have to be over-powered"
the enemy also being one of the most dangerous things in the game:

[raven patrol]

I mean I almost see that as a reason to add it, it is an underpowered mechanic people would do if they are desperate

[daring oar]

well yeah

that's why i'd be willing to let players reverse a maneater's transformation progress by doing it

i think it is the only sacrifice worthy enough of such a benefit

but i still don't want to create mechanics to let you feed the maneater TBH

so ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[raven patrol]

Thoughts on this Purple?

[daring oar]

he barely shoots them anyway

[raven patrol]

I forget you two are acquainted

Small world

[daring oar]

lol

yeah

[raven patrol]

Nonetheless Purple can share his thoughts

[balmy pier]

yeah i like this

always felt off that one nutcracker kill essentially makes all others freebies

especially when you have to take the effort to learn how to kill it, and expand upon the strategy to where you can always do it in a basic setting at least

thats why i dont really shoot them too much, or anything else really

takes fun out of it

[raven patrol]

What is funny too is that general consensus is that Butlers are harder to kill, they take more hits and are more aggressive. The balancing is completely lopsided

[balmy pier]

i cant really say which of the two is harder

[daring oar]

nutcrackers are way easier but the punishment for failure is more extreme

[balmy pier]

i suppose an average person wouldnt figure out how to strafe butlers as fast as figuring out how to dodge shotgun bullets

[daring oar]

butlers at least don't instant kill

but they are way more mobile and also way harder to lose in a chase

[balmy pier]

they dont but its easy for them to take huge hp chunks

[raven patrol]

You need an exit or other player close by or they will make quick work of you

[raven patrol]

Killing them is situational too, you need an open tile. Mineshaft caves or single Factory hallways are almost a death sentence

[balmy pier]

i honestly see the knife as a higher priority tool to get than the gun is because always doing a shovel kill on a butler isnt really a good idea

and knives will make you not have to do that

allowing saving health for other things

[raven patrol]

Both tools are worth getting

It is just a matter of risk/reward

[daring oar]

both make getting the other a lot easier too

if you have a shotgun you can just double barrel your first butler and then use the knife on future butlers

and nutcrackers are one of the few enemies where knives are a viable alternative to a shovel

[raven patrol]

Especially with your mod where Shotguns one hit Butlers

[balmy pier]

my discovery of the scientific term known as the 1-4 cycle has made me desire knife usage less

but i guess most people wouldnt figure out thats a thing you can do

[raven patrol]

It is very tight

1-2-2 is the safe bet

[balmy pier]

its not tight at all actually

i only failed doing this one time out of like 30 so far where i forgot to wait until the nutcracker is preparing to fire

that wasnt even due to timing that was just me forgetting the most important part of it

[raven patrol]

Can you explain

[balmy pier]

watch how i kill one in this clip https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1241786100201160784/1325852263570341928/2025-01-06_09-42-00_-_Trim.mp4?ex=67a6d2e4&is=67a58164&hm=7edc5b4569432e8dfd6325eb288ae594975c2e5b2a55d4636ae67bd3376642ab&

[raven patrol]

So in the fail did he kick you because you forget he moves

[balmy pier]

basically
you can wind up a shovel hit after the third hit
wait until its preparing to fire
and then you can do two more hits after that before it fires

[raven patrol]

I see

[balmy pier]

it wont shoot faster because the shot its prepared to fire isnt set to be faster from it being at 1 health

and its not tight at all

[raven patrol]

Ye, I know about the Beserk mode

[balmy pier]

its very easy to do this actually

what i did wrong that one time was i just forgot to wind up the 4th hit

so it immediately fired from being enraged

[daring oar]

god i really do not want to write the readme for all of this

the in-game config settings are supposed to just explain what the setting does, and then the readme is going to have the rationale

[raven patrol]

A wiki might be better for this mod

[daring oar]

but i now have 31 config settings i need to write descriptions for

[daring oar]

yeah i've never made one before but im strongly considering it for this one

i need to look at how they work

if im being honest i don't really want to spend too much time describing changes vs. just implementing them right now

so the next version might stick to the readme format

[balmy pier]

i dont think they auto generate anything

[daring oar]

just so i can get it out

[balmy pier]

so youd still be typing out regardless

[raven patrol]

They just may be better formatted for organizing long texts without having to use spoilers

[wind spoke]

if that is done it might be good to also use it for some of the other mods

[daring oar]

sighhh... yeahhh...

i wont lie

as i release more stuff i get less and less interested in maintaining thunderstore pages

[wind spoke]

like the readme's?

[daring oar]

im still doing it because it's the right thing to do

but there are times where i feel like it is distracting me and slowing down work on the actual mod

and this has been by far the worst example of it so far

this is just me venting

basically

obviously i am going to keep doing it

but it is probably my least favorite part of the process at this point

[wind spoke]

yeah

thats fair

[raven patrol]

While making my modpack I am making a separate Google Doc where I can save and easily reference my config settings. It is painful and increases my work time, but it is a super nice resource to have. If r2modman deletes my profile I can (relatively) easily restore it, plus it does its intended job very well. If you could find a use like this for mod descriptions for yourself it could be better

[daring oar]

i will say

at least part of the issue is just the tools

normally i love source editing because visual editing tools sometimes have annoying UI

<details>
<summary><ins><b>Barber</b></ins></summary>

but stuff like this is painful to look at

[vapid pier]

I will always find it funny that for players it’s a cone but for enemies it’s a pill

[daring oar]

and i hate working with these dropdown things because sometimes i forgot a <details> or </details> somewhere and it breaks the formatting of the page

[raven patrol]

Might as well give wikis a shot I say

[daring oar]

yeah i think so

if im being real

i might take a break after the next update

[balmy pier]

red pill?!?!?

[raven patrol]

They are meant for information dumps like this

[daring oar]

and make 0.1.1 or 0.2.0 or whatever literally just "the wiki update"

because i dont want to delay a huge feature release to write a million wiki pages

[raven patrol]

Real

Shadow drop Nutcracker buff

[unreal ginkgo]

Love TerrasRebalance's nutcracker buff
1-4 isn't so easy now

[wind spoke]

if its a wiki you could possibly have other people to maintain it

[raven patrol]

Oh you missed it, Buttery has her own change in mind

[raven patrol]

See this

[unreal ginkgo]

The two will be good in combination...

I already nerfed nutcrackers a lot by equalizing their falloff

[raven patrol]

Btw Buttery what do you have in mind for Embrion? The big question…

[daring oar]

i dont know

i like embrion being shit because it's funny

but i also want to make it at least good enough that it's not completely worth avoiding...

[raven patrol]

Fair

[daring oar]

i ported over most of liquidation's loot table

none of the "manor" items (like fancy lamps, golden cups, etc.)

but all the toys, and reduced spawn chances for heavy metal sheet (although it's still there, because it does fit embrion, for sure)

and im making mineshaft more frequent

to be honest most of my embrion changes are going to just be afterthoughts though

[balmy pier]

my only problem with embrion is how much two-handed items spawn on it

and also a lot of 16-24 lbs items

[raven patrol]

Embrion as the new best/hardest moon could be interesting, like at a 2500 credit price point

[daring oar]

i would make it mineshaft dominant but i kinda like the idea that the factories are where old birds were developed

[balmy pier]

all 3 interiors fit embrion very well

[daring oar]

and i also like idea of toy factories on embrion

[balmy pier]

its hard to decide a good primary

and mostly boils down from person to person

[daring oar]

idk i dont think manors "fit" embrion, i just think they are cool as a rare occurrence

[raven patrol]

I do not see Manor

[daring oar]

but i think everybody has their different headcanon

at the end of the day

[raven patrol]

Mineshaft Embrion is kinda carried by Chameleon imo, Factory is the obvious winner

At least in vanilla

[daring oar]

oh for sure

but

i really like the amethyst caverns

and i never get to appreciate them

also

There are theories that a diverse geothermal ecosystem may be thriving within a vast cave network under Embrion's surface.

[vapid pier]

Slapping it on every moon jusr so I can see it

[daring oar]

mineshafts would definitely fit in vanilla

i just think that the vanilla mineshaft texture is a really bad fit for embrion's environment, visually

default caves are super ugly on rend and dine too

those 3 maps are just not meant to be brown

[raven patrol]

I would do Factory as primary with like 33% chance for Mineshaft with Chameleon. Factory in the obvious theme but Mineshaft is a nice visual treat every few days

[balmy pier]

i used it for seichi and bozoros caverns

bozoros intending to be like a hall of mirrors

[daring oar]

yeah

[raven patrol]

Very good

Man all this talk is making me want to make a vanilla rebalance modpack separate from my current one. It will be called ‘Buttery Dreams’ or something and be a mashup of Dopadream and Buttery mods, with a few of my own embellishments. Times are good right now

[daring oar]

it is very nice how easy the lc community makes it to fine tune the game to your liking

LC is a game with some of the best "balance how you want to play" features ive seen, short of games that add officially maintained customization tools

modding is easy, and customization is even more accessible since people are making generalized mods that just expose configs to the end user

you can completely rebalance every moon in the game (short of some values, like interior size) using just LLL and entering text in a field and that is pretty cool

[raven patrol]

Central Config does the rest, you can even modify spawn curves with it

Nothing is off-limits nowadays

[vapid pier]

I can think of one thing that isn't very customizable yet

[raven patrol]

Are you gonna say it

[vapid pier]

mmm

idk

(Infestations)

[raven patrol]

RNGConfigurator

[vapid pier]

Hit gold by having a mod that allows customization of any enemy found in your pack to have an Infestation

bonus points for a per-moon basis chance

[raven patrol]

Not sure that is customization or inventing a new mechanic

I bet Nutcracker infestations were made as an alternative to general infestations to address Rend

[vapid pier]

Butler infestations for Dine could be funny

[daring oar]

i plan to add butler and masked infestations

and im thinking about baboon/dog infestations as well

i also want to just rework how infestations work in general

IMO the vanilla mechanics are not very good

[raven patrol]

There is the Curse of Embrion mod which is basically Old Bird infestation

[daring oar]

they are kind of fun and exciting but i think i can do it in a similar way that keeps the feel but without craziness like ghost girl matching the bunker spider's spawn rate on experimentation

or jester matching thumper spawn rates on march

[raven patrol]

Wait do infestations modify monster spawn chances? I thought it was just Hoarding Bug spam plus 30 power level?

[daring oar]

infestations have a ~2.91% chance to occur per day

then a 75% chance to be a hoarding bug infestation or a 25% chance to be a nutcracker infestation

(rend will always have nutcracker infestations, vow will always have hoarding bug infestations)

hoarding bug infestations set power level to 30 and nutcracker infestations set power level to 20

both infestation types add +2 enemies to every spawn wave

(which stacks with eclipses, meaning offense/dine/embrion will spawn 6 enemies every 2 hours)

[vapid pier]

LOL

[balmy pier]

yeah its

[daring oar]

and the infestation works by setting the "infestation enemy" to 100 weight and all other enemies to 1 weight

[balmy pier]

really bad

[daring oar]

which means the spawn pool will be completely dominated by the infestation enemy, until they reach their spawn cap

[raven patrol]

Ah I see

[daring oar]

which is 10 for both hoarding bugs and nutcrackers

after which all other enemies have equalized spawn chances

[balmy pier]

its 8 for bugs not 10

[daring oar]

because they are all 1 weight

[daring oar]

the infestation update increased their max count from 8 to 10

[raven patrol]

That is pretty crazy

[balmy pier]

what the fuck

[daring oar]

anyways

i have plans to "fix" infestations

keeping the whole idea of 1 enemy type overpopulating the map

but without fucking up power level or causing other enemies to become more frequent

i have mechanics in mind that i think will work well at both

[unreal ginkgo]

I love how a single shotgun can make them all irrelevant due to them hitting their max count almost instantly in the morning

One group to take 'em all out

[raven patrol]

With this we will have infestations for:

• Hoarding Bug

• Nutcracker

• Masked

• Butler

• Eyeless Dog

• Baboon Hawk

• Old Bird

• Barber

[daring oar]

i was gonna make a separate mod for the infestation rework

[unreal ginkgo]

Baboon hawk infestations good god

[daring oar]

and i started working on it after chameleon v2.1.0

but i could never seem to get that mod off the ground

idk why

it got like halfway done but i never finished it

i will probably just cannibalize it into this mod and make it one of the many config options

[raven patrol]

Curse of Adamance

An idea could be that whatever monster is the most dominant on a moon (excluding ones with a spawn cap of 1) could be the one that gets spammed in an infestation

[daring oar]

yeah one of the changes i made was weighted infestations

i think it is good to allow for nutcracker infestations on the earlier maps

[raven patrol]

Wait, in the code is there a provision for if a moon does not spawn Hoarding Bugs or Nutcrackers, or on such modded moons is there just a 3% chance for a soft lock/crash

[daring oar]

like, if i reused the exact weight numbers for assurance, then you would have 78/79 hoarding bug infestations and 1/79 nutcracker infestations

[daring oar]

if a nutcracker infestation tries to start and there are no nutcrackers, it tries to become a hoarding bug infestation

if there are no hoarding bugs the event is cancelled completely

if a hoarding bug infestation tries to start and there are no hoarding bugs, it cancels the event too

so infestations have a lower chance to occur on rend than other moons, since it doesn't spawn hoarding bugs

[raven patrol]

Ok cool, I got worried for a second

[daring oar]

anyways i think it requires a little more tuning to prevent this from happening

but i do like the idea of butler infestations being more frequent on dine than other moons

for example

[raven patrol]

Just have be where when considering what enemy for an infestation, enemies with too low weight are bumped up to a flat amount

Coil Head infestation on Offense

[daring oar]

lol that separate infestation mod was actually going to have coilhead infestations

extremely rare with increased chance on offense and rend

but i hate coilheads and wound up deciding to make it off by default

i am torn between hating coilheads and wanting to add coilhead infestations because i think they would be really funny

anyways im not sure if that will survive the leap to this mod or not

[raven patrol]

I mean infestations as a whole are ‘funny’

[daring oar]

i also added barber infestations

which more or less were going to work identically to how dopadream implemented them

[wind spoke]

even if its disabled by default it would be cool

[raven patrol]

Throw balance out the window and make indoor fog 20% because why not

[daring oar]

i think dopadream's implementation causes 4 barbers to spawn at once

since it uses the vanilla enemy rush system

and the vent spawn fix makes them spawn in pairs

and imo i think it would scale better if it was 2 per wave

regardless of the pair setting

[raven patrol]

Even after v60 nerf I wonder if Coil Heads should be 2 power honestly

[daring oar]

also having 8 barbers on the map pairs horribly with other enemy types and practically warrants disabling other enemy spawns completely

[daring oar]

they definitely should have been 2 power before

now i'm not so sure

the coilhead hater within me says "yes just make them 2 power still"

but i mean

it's not that difficult to lock them up and then just run away

anymore

[raven patrol]

Before v60 I saw arguments for 3 power. I am sure we all saw Wurp’s v45 tier list where he put Coil Heads above S tier in Coil Head tier

[daring oar]

you dont even need a door to get a head start anymore

i dont think coilheads are a 3 power enemy personally

i could see 3 power level, but for my money, i'd be happy with just 2

[raven patrol]

3 power was pre nerf

[daring oar]

yeah but i mean even before the nerf

[raven patrol]

2 power is as far as I would go

[daring oar]

i would've been fine with 3 power back then, but i think 2 would've been enough still

1 was definitely too little until the nerf

and now im just on the fence

because on one hand... nutcrackers are 1 power level

[raven patrol]

I think they could be 2 power nowadays purely on the fact they can show up and kill you faster than human reaction time

[daring oar]

which seems wrong just due to common sense (although once you know how they work i think it's actually pretty fair)

meanwhile thumpers are 3

[raven patrol]

I thought those got lowered to 2

[daring oar]

which seems sort of overtuned, maybe? i dunno

spiders used to be 3 and were lowered to 2 in v50

might be what you're thinking of

spiders were definitely never worthy of 3

[raven patrol]

Oh

[daring oar]

one thing for me is like

it's crazy that the bracken is 3 power level and coils are just 1

the bracken is definitely paranoia inducing

and a persistent threat that is difficult to kill

so you usually just have to put up with it for the rest of the day

but coilheads demant constant attention

they persist for the entire day because they are unkillable and also used to have no break period between attacks

[raven patrol]

This plus what I said makes a compelling argument for 2 power. Similar to Maneater they immediately and (unlike Maneater) permanently hinder your ability to loot

This is what makes Jester so dangerous

[daring oar]

lol well tbf jester is a 3 power level

but yeah

i guess i should probably add a 2 power level coilhead setting after all

we used to play with that change but i dropped it with the v60 nerf to give them a chance

[raven patrol]

I think it is justified as a config

[daring oar]

but TBH i feel like it still pretty much makes sense

[raven patrol]

I remember Dopadream made a rebalance mod a while ago where she full stop made Coil Heads 3 power

Probably should be updated now

[daring oar]

i had no idea but that would make sense

i think 3 power level is kind of a lot

because if you get 5 coilheads, that eats up 15 power which is pretty much overflowing spawn cap on all maps other than titan

3 power level would also demand reducing coilheads to 2-3 max IMO

but im personally more partial to 3 max, 2 power each

[balmy pier]

ok

weird suggestion for this mod

[raven patrol]

So you want to lower max spawns too? I never thought about that

[balmy pier]

can you make it so when turrets hit you you dont stand up if youre crouched

ive had multiple times i crouched to dodge a turret behind like, the kitchen counter

[daring oar]

i used to

[balmy pier]

and it hit me as i was

causing me to stand up and take another hit to it

its genuinely stupid

[daring oar]

instead, in this next update, i just gave them a number spawned falloff curve

so as coilheads spawn it reduces the likelihood future coilheads will spawn

in case i decide i want to go with the coilhead infestation after all

[raven patrol]

I can see that being annoying

[daring oar]

probably not

damage just uncrouches the player universally, i believe

and i also just dont see this as a big deal

[raven patrol]

Certified Arduous Hardships moment, getting killed over crazy edge cases is how we roll

[balmy pier]

its only a problem for turrets

[balmy pier]

???? this isnt a problem only in that

[daring oar]

turrets call the exact same *damage function as everything else

[balmy pier]

at least to me it is one

[daring oar]

oops

i probably ought to get to bed

or something

[raven patrol]

I mean it just feels straight out of that, even if it technically is not

[raven patrol]

Have you seen the amount of posts I edited tonight?

[daring oar]

the food old days

[raven patrol]

Yes

Among others

Man to think I was initially gonna pass of this mod, if Baboon Hawks being scared of Boomboxes/Loud Horn gets added I will not have a choice

This could end up being my favorite of yours

[daring oar]

anyways we currently sit at 48 settings and i still have not added any of dine's settings (beyond the one i added to counteract manor butlers)

afterwards i still have to add titan, artifice, and embrion changes

and then i will probably do 0.1.0

[raven patrol]

Sounds good

[shut torrent]

I know I'm probably in the vast minority of people when I say this, but even if the mechanic to feed the maneater scrap was a fully implemented feature, it'd still be better to just kill them anyway

And even if I didn't know how to kill them, sacrificing money just to make the maneater happy is just way too much of a downside for very little upside

I'd much rather have them trail behind me or have another person watch over them rather than just feed them stuff just to delay the inevitable

[analog cypress]

That still feels like a drastic change, Coilhead max 4 power 1.5 would be more subtle?

[analog cypress]

Forgot to reply

Also spore lizard isn't much of a threat honestly could have power 0.5

[ripe tartan]

@daring oar auto-swing for knife still auto swings when the setting is false, (not that i don't think its cool) but wanted to let you know 😄

[balmy pier]

adding onto it, you might also want to check if the knife can be used while youre being corrupted by a masked

cause thats a problem the mod designed for auto knife swinging has

[hushed dawn]

just throwing an idea at the wall here. what if the bracken were afraid of the coilheads? like if a bracken gains line of sight to a coilhead its anger meter goes down and it paths away for a few seconds? this would mean that if you were facing both enemies, you could use the coilhead to manage the bracken and keep your attention primarily on the coilhead

maybe the bracken could even be a valid target for a coilhead to attack? or maybe I'm off my rocker with this one

[balmy pier]

i might be off my rocker, but i dont really think the combo is actually as unfair as most people make it out to be

but thats largely due to how much i know how the game works i guess

but i feel like even more casual players could agree that earth leviathan plus eyeless dog is hellish

[bitter halo]

just mentioning that @silent needs to be the very first thing in the message for it to work

but also this sounds pretty damn cool

[daring oar]

ill check, thank you

[daring oar]

this is basically true but killing maneaters are a pretty tall order

5 hits from any weapon and they insta players

i don't think it hurts to have options, in any case

not that this was anything more than a hypothetical in the first place tho

[daring oar]

__instance.currentlyHeldObjectServer is KnifeItem knifeItem && __instance.CanUseItem()

the other mod was missing any cooldown checks and didn't check CanUseItem()

autoswing is subject to all the normal criteria that swinging the knife is

[daring oar]

this is really cool

[daring oar]

i probably wouldn't go this far with it

but i really like the idea that the bracken avoids coil-heads

it is sort of difficult to tune interactions like this correctly, since so much of LC's difficulty demands a variety of threats to deal with, and if those threats start killing each other then the game gets really easy

but there are cases where it really works and it's super cool to see it happen

like being oppressed by a forest giant and then it gets murdered by an old bird that just woke up

or being chased by an enemy into a nutcracker, and it kills whatever's after you with its shotgun

(not that there's special targeting code, that's just a happy accident when it happens)

anyways

[daring oar]

bracken + coilhead would be an example of this i think, because it is by far one of the least fun interactions in the game

monster combos are only fun when they encourage variety of strategy or require quick thinking

but the counterplay to coil + bracken is extremely obvious, and that counterplay is "always watch the coil except make sure you see the bracken before it collides with you"

and that is not fun to balance at all

[daring oar]

im not changing the coil's max value anymore, just its power level

and a spawn curve to make its spawn chance decrease if coils are already on the map

and both are individually disableable

there are no enemies with 1.5 power level and all the enemies that currently exist with 0.5 power spawn in groups that make them collectively take up a whole number of power

[analog cypress]

it doesn't?

well that's a shame

[daring oar]

only 2 0.5 power level enemies are baboons and tulips

baboons spawn in groups of 2 and tulips in groups of 4

[analog cypress]

how would the bracken and coildhead interaction goes? If the coil-head is on the LOS from the player, the bracken will avoid to attack or he won't come near a certain radius from the coilhead?

Also, i reunited some extra changes to the list made last night and made more readable compared to last night after more thoughts, i know that some mods does some changes in different or similar ways but it doesn't hurt suggesting anyways

Upgrade changes (Cool ideas)

• Loud horn makes Baboon hawk go away from a certain radius around the ship
• Loud horn interferes with the Leviathan if he's close enough and it won't be able to follow players, although they'll still emerge if the player is on range
• Loud horn makes Masked go straight to the ship if they wandering outside and don't have encountered a player
• Remove Signal translator negative luck (kinda stupid) and make it 0 value

Entity changes (Subjective)

• Coilhead from max 5 to max 4
• Spore lizard from power 1 to power 0.5 (Allows more dangerous entities to spawn)
• Spider damage from 90 to 70 (Allows to tank some extra hits from Butler, Baboon hawk, Circuit bee and Snare flea)
• Eyeless dog from 12 HP to 10 HP (Allows to kill it with 2 close shots with the shotgun)
• Forest Keeper has 50 vision range on snowy moons (Average between 30 from foggy moons and 70 from clear moons)
• Ghost girl can explode landmines she steps on during chase sequences (Makes it more chaotic and fun)
• Weed Killer will make bracken retreat immediately if he hasn't been attacked but for a longer time instead of 21 seconds (Not very useful but cool interaction with flowerman)

Tools Changes (Very subjective)

• Decrease time required by lockpicker to unlock from 30s to 20s
• Increasing Extension ladder weight from 0lb to 14lb
• Decrease price of Extension Ladder on store from 60$ to 45$

Scrap Changes (Fair changes)

• Swap Yield sign (42) and Chemical Jug (31~32) weight
• Swap Hairbrush (11) and Hairdryer (7) weight
• Swap Candy (11) and Garbage lid (0) weight
• Swap Tea kettle (21) and Golden cup (16) weight
• Swap Fancy lamp (21) and Clock (26) weight
• Lowering Soccer ball from 19lb to 14lb
• Lowering Flask from 19lb to 11lb
• Lowering Old phone from 5lb to 0lb
• Increasing Large axle from 16lb to 21lb
• Increasing V-type engine from 16lb to 19lb
• Allowing Dust pans to spawn on Assurance and Offense
• Allowing gift boxes to spawn shotgun sheels

[balmy pier]

the lockpicker is 11 lbs in vanilla

not 16

[analog cypress]

the wiki is wrong then

my bad

[balmy pier]

i think it used to be 16

but both wikis have outdated shit all over the place

its kind of insane

[raven patrol]

Fandom wiki correctly lists Lockpicker weight as 10.5 lbs, I think it is easily the better of the two wikis at this point. It is better maintained and has cleaned up its act from the early days

Still not perfect but it is the best we got

[analog cypress]

I was looking at the store table

[raven patrol]

Oh

Yeah I always check something’s main page

[analog cypress]

too much work checking the items individually

[raven patrol]

It takes literally seconds

[raven patrol]

Anyway though if you want to do these changes you actually can accomplish most of them with other mods right now

[analog cypress]

ItemWeights can do many of the changes

the upgrades one probably none

[raven patrol]

The upgrade changes are the only thing that cannot be done, some of the entity changes may not have mods

Maybe ScaredBaboon would in a way let the Loud Horn scaring Baboons work

[analog cypress]

nuh uh

[daring oar]

A beautiful picture of Jackdedestroyer and a Nutcracker. vs The mighty blessed wooden spear of the one-armed old hermit man from the northern mountain caves near the backside of my house

[wind spoke]

that ending is such bullshit

the bracken should've died

[unreal ginkgo]

@glass yacht Do you have the skill issue forest keeper gif

[daring oar]

Lol

brackens have 5 HP so you need a perfect point blank blast for them to go down

you were probably at the 3 damage range

always a sad day when the bracken resists the double barrel 😔

[glass yacht]

i don't think so

[unreal ginkgo]

Augh it's so old it's probably lost to time if certain LCM channels weren't wiped

[glass yacht]

some channels were wiped?

[unreal ginkgo]

No, I'm just saying in the case that they potentially were

[edgy maple]

lethal snap still works?

[wind spoke]

indeed

[ebon sandal]

it works good?
Last time I've seen it was not working for clients

[naive mesa]

Don’t the pictures stay in your files forever?

Or was that changed

I last heard of it a while ago

[daring oar]

alright folks

for the third day in a row

"hopefully update today"

im starting to experience the worst sort of burnout

the burnout where i'm not disinterested in working on stuff

but i'm too easily distracted by other things to get it done at any reasonable pace

but we will try to power through

[hushed dawn]

I've had that happen to me too with plenty of things in my life

recently I've been making a check list of things I want to accomplish in a day, and every x things I get through I grant myself a break

maybe such a thing can help you

[daring oar]

yeah usually i just let my thoughts kinda swim around and i tackle them as they come to mind

im not the best at keeping to-do lists, and so the lack of organization probably contributes to the mental wandering

[hushed dawn]

yeah. I would always just keep things in my head and it made it easy to forget or to switch to something else. turning everything into something tangible that I can see and refer to, and freeing up the space in my mind, and incentivizing myself actually committing to and completing things, has worked amazingly for me

also I always put "make todo list" as the first item in the todo list just so that I commit to finishing the todo list and I can have something completed right away lmao

[daring oar]

lol

nice

[daring oar]

finally put the nutcracker change into the game

and TBH im really happy with it

having to bait 2 shots for a reload if you want to use the shotgun

or combo with another weapon into the shotgun

yes you can turn the auto swing setting off

i forgot to check the config setting

so it was force enabled

that was the only problem with it

anyways i'll get to work on the artifice changes

and i will do "Something" for embrion

probably not going to be fixing it or anything

but i will make it less of a total joke

and a niche "ok" choice

[balmy pier]

embrion only needs a better way to leave from main entrance in my honest opinion

[daring oar]

artifice will be easy because pretty much the only changes i want to make are reverting the v60 balance changes

not removing the v60 content

but like

making factories and manors bigger again

spawning more loot

he reduced the factory/manor chance when he added mineshaft, so i'm just going to increase them again and leave mineshaft chance the same

(coincidentally this turns a 15/35/50 split into 15/50/35 just by how the math works out)