RebalancedMoons + Atlas | Lethal Company Modding | Page 9

green terrace Jan 16, 2025, 2:02 AM

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I'd meshify it because even though it's flat it takes the same amount of time to render it and store everything as the one with mountains and stuff. This is not the cause of the error above, but just fyi

half lion Jan 16, 2025, 2:03 AM

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I see, noted

green terrace Jan 16, 2025, 2:03 AM

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How to reproduce it? Go to Retinue and then it happens immediately when you depart?

mental breach Jan 16, 2025, 2:04 AM

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green terrace How to reproduce it? Go to Retinue and then it happens immediately when you depa...

Yeah, it should show up after getting snowfall

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This explains why I kept lagging earlier but didn't know why tbh

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Cus the terrain stayed

green terrace Jan 16, 2025, 2:05 AM

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Actually I think I got it
@half lion is this outer terrain put in the root of the scene?

half lion Jan 16, 2025, 2:06 AM

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Opening unity to see

green terrace Jan 16, 2025, 2:06 AM

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I guess .parent is null in this case and my code will not move it to the correct scene

half lion Jan 16, 2025, 2:07 AM

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green terrace Jan 16, 2025, 2:07 AM

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yeee

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ok, I will fix it from my side, but probably only on the weekend

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if you are faster than that you can just parent it to anything and it will also fix it

half lion Jan 16, 2025, 2:10 AM

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Gotcha, I can probably just push a rly quick patch now since i'm free

zenith dust Jan 16, 2025, 4:03 PM

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was the interior fog decreased on embrion?

sinful jungle Jan 16, 2025, 4:03 PM

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yes

zenith dust Jan 16, 2025, 4:03 PM

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awww

sinful jungle Jan 16, 2025, 4:03 PM

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sowwy

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it looked weird to me

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i kinda just wanted it to look like it had different lighting

zenith dust Jan 16, 2025, 4:08 PM

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damn

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maybe it'll look better on factory, its just that on mineshaft you can barely notice the difference

sinful jungle Jan 16, 2025, 4:14 PM

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oh i didnt rlly see how it looked on mineshaft tbh

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might need to adjust it a bit again if thats the case

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 12:01 AM

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wtf

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the sky is broken on embrion

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its straight up just the default sky rn

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 12:02 AM

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zenith dust maybe it'll look better on factory, its just that on mineshaft you can barely no...

i think this is why

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i shipped something wrong

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so thats why it looked different for me but not for you

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lol

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uhh

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one moment

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okay apolocheese false alarm

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i was actually testing on the incorrect embrion because you can route to either versions with imperium lol

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it is working fine

sage rover Jan 17, 2025, 1:21 AM

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i need this on every moon oh my gosdodngnad

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such a vibe

rancid gale Jan 17, 2025, 1:57 AM

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That is PRETTY cool, I remember dopa posting that lighting too

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Is it a config option, moon-specific or yet to be released?

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 1:58 AM

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its a config option and its specific to titan

rancid gale Jan 17, 2025, 1:58 AM

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Gotchu

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I have titan set to be the mines most of the time, I wonder how it looks there

zenith dust Jan 17, 2025, 2:01 AM

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sage rover i need this on every moon oh my gosdodngnad

ruby crow Jan 17, 2025, 2:21 AM

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i love it when moons add their own effects to interiors

sage rover Jan 17, 2025, 2:37 AM

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zenith dust

lmao

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 2:42 AM

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zenith dust

Jackden off

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😇

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 4:12 AM

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rancid gale I have titan set to be the mines most of the time, I wonder how it looks there

so does this mod

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it works there too

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its very creepy imo

rancid gale Jan 17, 2025, 4:15 AM

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Heck yeah

zenith dust Jan 17, 2025, 4:40 AM

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sinful jungle its very creepy imo

I think the mineshaft is my favorite because the rest are all very distinctly different but then the mineshaft is just normal lighting, no yellowish lights its just normal

rancid gale Jan 17, 2025, 5:25 AM

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Why does dopa get pinged as care? Am I schizo?

cinder jackal Jan 17, 2025, 5:26 AM

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@sinful jungle

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 5:27 AM

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rancid gale Why does dopa get pinged as care? Am I schizo?

i have a nickname on this server

cinder jackal Jan 17, 2025, 5:27 AM

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sinful jungle i have a nickname on this server

no ping back sadnova

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 5:27 AM

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my display name on discord is Care

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@cinder jackal

cinder jackal Jan 17, 2025, 5:27 AM

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rancid gale Jan 17, 2025, 5:27 AM

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Oh, it doesn't show for me lol

cinder jackal Jan 17, 2025, 5:28 AM

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pink .

rancid gale Jan 17, 2025, 5:28 AM

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For the longest time I thought they were two diff people

woven tiger Jan 17, 2025, 11:46 AM

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how did you do the special effects inside on titan?

gleaming pilot Jan 17, 2025, 1:25 PM

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I’m guessing it’s changing the colour of interior fog?

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 1:59 PM

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woven tiger how did you do the special effects inside on titan?

iterated through powered lights and changed temperature

sturdy pumice Jan 17, 2025, 4:10 PM

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I was playing on March and noticed the interior is foggier than on experimentation. Is there a way to fix this?

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I know you fixed issues related to fog to some extent, but I feel that the issue is still present

sturdy pumice Jan 17, 2025, 6:20 PM

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I will say the poltergeist issue seems to be (somewhat) fixed

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It seems to correlate in some way to the amount of fog in interiors

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:41 PM

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sturdy pumice I was playing on March and noticed the interior is foggier than on experimentati...

I lowkey thought u were tripping but nah

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it was slightly different

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good eye

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march is on the left

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I fixed it tho

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ill push this rq

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:42 PM

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is that a vanilla bug?

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:42 PM

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nope

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:42 PM

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i see

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:42 PM

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so

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i know what the issue was tho

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:42 PM

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march does have some problems in vanilla so i wouldn't have been surprised

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:43 PM

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so

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you recognize this volume profile right

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its the default one

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used in most moons

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:43 PM

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yes

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:43 PM

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turns out, ticking on the "fog" component (its normally unticked) causes it to be slightly thicker like that??

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i literally just turned it off and it fixed it

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changed zero values

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so yeah that's pretty odd huh

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:44 PM

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i mean

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i feel like that makes sense

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turning on fog that isn't normally turned on makes it more foggy

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right? or did i misread

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:44 PM

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i figured it gets normally turned on in game

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kinda like how the triggers mesh renderers get turned off

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:44 PM

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ah

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:45 PM

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i suppose not

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:45 PM

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i think the only HDRP stuff that gets adjusted with code is the volume blending for TZP/fear

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:45 PM

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ye

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:45 PM

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and foggy's density

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:45 PM

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lesson learned

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anyways ya, thanks thunder

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:45 PM

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anyways this is a good point for me to ask

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i suppose

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did you fix march's ship nav stuff

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:46 PM

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?

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:46 PM

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the ship doors are broken in vanilla march

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:46 PM

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what

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:46 PM

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closing the doors doesn't actually prevent anything from entering the ship

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:46 PM

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no?

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HUH

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i was wondering how a dog clipped through it'

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😭

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hwo do ifx it

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:46 PM

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i haven't looked into exactly why yet but if you're replacing the scene, might be a good candidate for you to sneak a fix in

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i could take a look and see what the diff is

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with other moons

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:46 PM

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i admittedly have zero idea how the ship works

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so i wouldnt know where on the object to look

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all i know is like

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its a separate scene that is always loaded

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(?)

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:47 PM

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i am decently familiar with the navmesh system and i have some idea of what is going on

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the ship's navmesh is defined on the moon's scene

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:47 PM

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ye

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it is

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:47 PM

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it is true that the ship is always loaded, but it has no navmesh attached (at least im like 99% sure)

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zeekerss just placed a whitebox version of the ship on the moon's scene and generated navmesh with it

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my guess is he forgot to modify one of the surfaces

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or maybe it's in a slightly different position on march which prevents the doors from carving it

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something like that

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:48 PM

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it looks like the position is identical

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idk what you mean by modify one of the surfaces

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:49 PM

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let me see if im barking up the wrong tree

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interestingly it doesnt seem to be that

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:50 PM

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i could try like

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:50 PM

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i'll take a look at the navmesh visualizer in imperium next

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:50 PM

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just deleting the entire thing and then copying it from

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say adamance

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:51 PM

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sharp finch i'll take a look at the navmesh visualizer in imperium next

could you test with this maybe

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just curious

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:51 PM

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test with rebal?

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:51 PM

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yaya

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:51 PM

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ok

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light work

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:51 PM

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just spawn a dog or smth and try to get it to come in

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:53 PM

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weeird

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:53 PM

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?

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:53 PM

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it is true that it doesn't get carved on march

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but it doesn't get carved on artifice either and i know the doors block enemies there

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:53 PM

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what the balls

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oh

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:53 PM

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so something else must be happening

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 6:53 PM

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can you try like

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makinmg a dog come inside

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:55 PM

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yup, works fine on artifice

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let me double check march and then i will do rebal

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wow this is so ugly

woven tiger Jan 17, 2025, 6:56 PM

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what did you do why is it infested

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 6:56 PM

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was testing yesfox changes on this save yesterday

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wow, it's like

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weird and inconsistent

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i've been able to get the dog to clip through it but it's only happened at a specific angle it seems

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it like, goes through an offmesh link in/out this corner of the ship

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or something

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sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 7:02 PM

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how do you visualize those like that

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 7:02 PM

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it looks like march has additional offmeshlinks that the other planets don't have (although even the other planets aren't consistent; experimentation has offmesh links whereas titan does not)

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my guess is that one in the corner i just pointed out is acting up

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 7:03 PM

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sinful jungle how do you visualize those like that

i just added boxcolliders to them

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so i could select all and they would draw

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 7:03 PM

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o duh

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 7:03 PM

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march has two extra links in the front (presumably because it's on a tall hill)

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as long as enemies aren't prevented from pathing up to the ship via the other links, i'd say those should probably just be removed

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im gonna check the other moons in the editor quick and then i will also try rebal

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 7:05 PM

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rbm still has those extra offmesh links

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iirc

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i will try removing them

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 7:06 PM

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even artifice doesnt have offmesh links there

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although i think march is pretty much alone in being as elevated off the terrain as it is

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artifice is just "the next closest thing"

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offense is also pretty high up, has no extra mesh links

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i think i can toggle those off in-game and check in realtime

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but id just bet it's these

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ShipLadder (1) and ShipLadder (2)

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ok well im either wrong about them being the cause or im wrong about them being toggleable in realtime

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because a dog just clipped through the doors with them disabled

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anyways

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i will check rbm

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 7:10 PM

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😅

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dont get your hopes up

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i didnt do much

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but like

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yknow

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idrk how to fix this either

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this is beyond my brainpower

sharp finch Jan 17, 2025, 7:11 PM

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me neither

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but wont it be awesome to figure it out

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 7:11 PM

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yeah

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 8:50 PM

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RebalancedManul

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 9:12 PM

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rebalanced manul

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sorry

obtuse mortar Jan 17, 2025, 11:30 PM

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sharp finch it is true that it doesn't get carved on march

I havent looked at any of the code admittedly, but wouldn't carving the navmesh make it so that nothing would be able to try to path to you? You'd get stutters in pathing since the path is partial, and the dog wouldn't come close to the door if it gets carved, I could be wrong though

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 11:46 PM

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obtuse mortar I havent looked at any of the code admittedly, but wouldn't carving the navmesh ...

help me zorty HELP
what can i possibly do to make things not clip through the ship door on march...

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i need ideas

obtuse mortar Jan 17, 2025, 11:47 PM

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Hmm, the ship door, does it use a navmesh modifier/navmesh obstacle to block enemies?

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Though there's a chance it uses neither

spring depot Jan 17, 2025, 11:48 PM

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I know interior doors are obstacles when closed

obtuse mortar Jan 17, 2025, 11:48 PM

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Yea they carve the navmesh too

spring depot Jan 17, 2025, 11:48 PM

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Not sure about ship but I don't know if modifiers can be toggled without rebaking the whole navmesh

obtuse mortar Jan 17, 2025, 11:48 PM

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Security doors too maybe

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Hmm, I'll take a look at the march scene and see if I notice anything off, dunno if I will though its not something I've touched before but I should be able to easily test it

sinful jungle Jan 17, 2025, 11:50 PM

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our first lead was the offmesh links

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that march has

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near the ship door

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so i tried removing them

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no dice

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1232851031000481812/1329855872104530012/IMG_7251-1.gif

crude valley Jan 18, 2025, 1:08 AM

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@sinful jungle do you copy the tags off the vanilla levels

sinful jungle Jan 18, 2025, 1:19 AM

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crude valley <@717509908479868999> do you copy the tags off the vanilla levels

?

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u mean the like

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layer tag thing

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ya

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its set to navmeshcollider or whatever

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to clarify like

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dogs can walk through the ship door on vanilla march

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this is vanilla behavior

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i just want to fix/remedy it somehow

crude valley Jan 18, 2025, 1:21 AM

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no like

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contentags

sinful jungle Jan 18, 2025, 1:21 AM

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ohhh

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mb

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let me check

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idk why it would matter tho

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you never route to my levels

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it just pulls the data i need from them and applies them to the vanilla levels

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and afaik content tags are like from the extended level right

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ya no i dont use them

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but i dont rlly need them so

crude valley Jan 18, 2025, 1:27 AM

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thank you for checking

sinful jungle Jan 18, 2025, 1:27 AM

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would you like me to apply them anyways?

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i dont think it'll benefit me in any way but if its any peace of mind i dont really mind

crude valley Jan 18, 2025, 1:28 AM

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nah your fine

sinful jungle Jan 18, 2025, 1:28 AM

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alr

obtuse mortar Jan 18, 2025, 1:44 AM

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doubt it's the issue but i noticed this modifier on the wrong layer

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in march

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currently playing see the difference between the two scenes lol (dine and march)

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fun to see that the ship positions arent actually always the same for every moon

sinful jungle Jan 18, 2025, 1:46 AM

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WAIT

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they're not>??

obtuse mortar Jan 18, 2025, 1:46 AM

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either that or the "box" that zeekerss puts in is a bit offset by a tiny bit

sinful jungle Jan 18, 2025, 1:46 AM

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i thought it was identical

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that might be why

obtuse mortar Jan 18, 2025, 1:46 AM

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the screenshot is from the same position on both scenes

sinful jungle Jan 18, 2025, 1:46 AM

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actually

obtuse mortar Jan 18, 2025, 1:46 AM

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but im noticing there's a tiny bit of a difference

sinful jungle Jan 18, 2025, 1:47 AM

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what if i try deleting the ship and just copying it from a moon that works

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the colliders i mean

obtuse mortar Jan 18, 2025, 1:47 AM

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that would probably work, i could be wrong about the ship position thing

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ill take another look just incase

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it's probably me taking screenshots shoddily

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yeah cuz march and rend are the same nvm

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hmm

sharp finch Jan 18, 2025, 1:49 AM

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@obtuse mortar the ship doesnt move between scenes

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it is always in a fixed position

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it's possible the ship's navmesh stuff isn't always consistently positioned though

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i havent noticed any discrepancies but i didnt go over everything with a fine tooth comb

obtuse mortar Jan 18, 2025, 1:49 AM

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yeah ik i thought the box zeekerss made was offset a tiny bit but that's just my screenshots being weird

sinful jungle Jan 18, 2025, 3:37 AM

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sobbers

snow kite Jan 18, 2025, 5:56 AM

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Just want to say now Dopadream, do not loose yourself trying to scrub every little imperfection out of these moons

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You have done so much already

gleaming pilot Jan 18, 2025, 8:55 AM

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March is already peak

rancid gale Jan 18, 2025, 2:07 PM

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Bro is def gonna be a unity pro though

sinful jungle Jan 18, 2025, 5:25 PM

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snow kite Just want to say now Dopadream, do not loose yourself trying to scrub every litt...

I'm doing alright

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fog stuff will also be fixed next patch for real this time

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i just hopefully wanna figure out a way to make it so dogs cant clip through the door on march

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its a vanilla bug

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but i would like to fix it

sinful jungle Jan 18, 2025, 7:47 PM

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heres the fixed up water shader i used in this mod! i tried my best to keep it visually consistent with the water in the vanilla moons, the difference should be next to nothing. it is at least a huge improvement from the project patcher's ugly yucky water. feel free to use this in your moon projects yoiled

📎 LC_Water.unitypackage

summer pewterBOT Jan 18, 2025, 7:47 PM

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sinful jungle heres the fixed up water shader i used in this mod! i tried my best to keep it v...

sinful jungle Jan 18, 2025, 7:50 PM

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sharp finch i think the only HDRP stuff that gets adjusted with code is the volume blending ...

can you double check this at some point btw?

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im 90% sure it does use the fog from that profile

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cuz it looks like identical

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and then turns itself off when you go into the interior

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but it seems manually turning it on breaks this

sharp finch Jan 18, 2025, 7:54 PM

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well

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if it was being used

sharp finch Jan 18, 2025, 7:55 PM

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sinful jungle and then turns itself off when you go into the interior

then i dont understand how this could be happening

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because it would fix itself by just retoggling right?

sinful jungle Jan 18, 2025, 7:55 PM

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well i assume thats how it works

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idk

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i guess

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but like

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why does it look the same

sharp finch Jan 18, 2025, 7:56 PM

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im not sure where to look exactly but i can try to figure it out

sinful jungle Jan 18, 2025, 7:56 PM

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i mean its not a huge deal

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i was just curious

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embrion boulder action

sage rover Jan 18, 2025, 8:48 PM

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i love the new embrion so much

gleaming pilot Jan 19, 2025, 4:16 AM

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Not sure I prefer it. I like vanilla Embrion because you see all the Old Birds immediately, just covering the landscape.

sinful jungle Jan 19, 2025, 4:16 AM

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yea but its balls for gameplay cuz they can see you from everywhere

gloomy moth Jan 19, 2025, 4:47 AM

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Tbf, not to downplay the change since I do think it is an interesting rebalance, I would rather take getting sniped by old birds than giants

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atleast when an old bird sees you, you have a good chance of living the encounter

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as opposed to a giant where if it snipes you, you have almost a 0% chance of surviving unless you happen to have a stun grenade

sinful jungle Jan 19, 2025, 5:10 AM

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I like the big rocks

dense hull Jan 19, 2025, 5:24 AM

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i like the big c

sturdy pumice Jan 19, 2025, 5:28 AM

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Just wanted to ask: could you make sure the fog is reverted to normal for every map where it's slighly thicker? You said that a checkbox was checked, which replaced the vanilla fog with a preset. Also, when will we be getting this update, and what other things are included in this update?

sinful jungle Jan 19, 2025, 5:29 AM

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i already told you its fixed in the next patch

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tomorrow, probably

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and it'll include an option for the outside lights to be turned off when the apparatus is pulled

dense hull Jan 19, 2025, 5:30 AM

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o?

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that sounds neat

sturdy pumice Jan 19, 2025, 5:31 AM

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sinful jungle i already told you its fixed in the next patch

I just wanted to know beyond a reasonable doubt. Thank you!

sinful jungle Jan 19, 2025, 5:31 AM

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no problem

sinful jungle Jan 19, 2025, 5:32 AM

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dense hull that sounds neat

yeah it'll also include scene overrides for every moon in the game to do this, because adding embrion was only like a 1-2mb increase

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and scene hotloading is a thing now

dense hull Jan 19, 2025, 5:33 AM

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oh gyatt

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i didn't know it was gonna go for every moon

sinful jungle Jan 19, 2025, 5:34 AM

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well some moons dont have lights but im just gonna do it anyways for future changes

dense hull Jan 19, 2025, 5:34 AM

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cool tho

sinful jungle Jan 19, 2025, 5:49 AM

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sturdy pumice I just wanted to know beyond a reasonable doubt. Thank you!

If it's that big of a deal for you I could push a hotfix tonight that fixes the fog

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i do not mind really

sturdy pumice Jan 19, 2025, 5:50 AM

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Nah ur good. I’m pushing a mini update tomorrow evening

sinful jungle Jan 19, 2025, 5:50 AM

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alr

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cuz i already have the fog working rn

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im just waiting until i finish other stuff

sturdy pumice Jan 19, 2025, 5:57 AM

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It’s fine. Make it all one update

kind horizon Jan 19, 2025, 10:45 AM

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Nab the shotgun traps from the toy store interior

sinful jungle Jan 20, 2025, 5:39 AM

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i dunno how to feel abt this

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in other news

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slight improvement

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old/new

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@green terrace ShrimpAdorable

green terrace Jan 20, 2025, 12:40 PM

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sinful jungle <@398818840269553664> <:ShrimpAdorable:1230735405863927868>

It looks good cuz you have added quads to the mesh, but these will be split into triangles after importing to Unity D:

green terrace Jan 20, 2025, 12:40 PM

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sinful jungle i dunno how to feel abt this

This could be fine depending on how you reprojected the UVs, but needs testing

sinful jungle Jan 20, 2025, 12:41 PM

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sinful jungle old/new

ye but it still maintains the less uhh

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whatever is going on here

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this spot is at least a little nicer ig

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its like that around the map

green terrace Jan 20, 2025, 12:47 PM

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Oh yeah I know about them and have to fix everything at runtime agony

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They exist on assurance, offence, experimentation and artifice

green terrace Jan 20, 2025, 12:48 PM

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sinful jungle this spot is at least a little nicer ig

def better

dense hull Jan 21, 2025, 1:37 AM

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question, unrelated to this mod

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will u ever uhh add the weight thing to snowyweeds

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 1:38 AM

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idk probably not

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im lazy

dense hull Jan 21, 2025, 1:38 AM

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ok! fair

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 1:38 AM

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i need to get a github up for it tho

#

i recovered the files

#

from my recycle bin

#

lol

dense hull Jan 21, 2025, 2:31 AM

#

dopa

#

what the fuck

#

snowyweeds (as we believe) is causing a memory leak

#

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:32 AM

#

ah

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 2:32 AM

#

dense hull

you probably just landed on a moon with a fuckton of vainshroud iterations multiple times

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:32 AM

#

well

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 2:33 AM

#

i dont think the log is causing that

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:33 AM

#

this is still a concern

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:33 AM

#

i forgot to save the log stupidfuck

dense hull Jan 21, 2025, 2:33 AM

#

🤑

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:33 AM

#

anyways the yesfox rewrite i made previously

dense hull Jan 21, 2025, 2:33 AM

#

me and smores will test that theory as we play

#

(disabled snowyweeds)

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:33 AM

#

has to run GenerateWeed() multiple times

#

so it is not uncommon for it to do 20 iterations 3 or 4 times upon landing

#

if it keeps running into invalid starting positions

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:34 AM

#

it might be snowy weeds but my ass started the game soI dont have a log 🥶

#

but from what I could tell when I did have it open

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:34 AM

#

Player-prev should still exist even if you relaunch your game

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:34 AM

#

@dense hull if you havent started your game get a log

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:34 AM

#

anyways

dense hull Jan 21, 2025, 2:34 AM

#

i have

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:34 AM

#

sharp finch `Player-prev` should still exist even if you relaunch your game

oh?

dense hull Jan 21, 2025, 2:34 AM

#

unfortunately

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:34 AM

#

where

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:34 AM

#

same directory as Player.log

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:34 AM

#

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:34 AM

#

%localappdata%Low\ZeekerssRBLX\Lethal Company\

#

that's on windows anyway

#

anyways

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 2:35 AM

#

did i do something wrong here butterys

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:35 AM

#

i was going to say yeah

#

you probably want to do in like

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:35 AM

#

sharp finch `%localappdata%Low\ZeekerssRBLX\Lethal Company\`

time to go mentally insane figuring out where this is on linux

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:35 AM

#

MoldSpreadManager.Start or Awake (whatever is available)

#

Instantiate the weed material

#

change its main texture

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:35 AM

#

the mold

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:35 AM

#

and then replace renderers.material.mainTexture = weedTexture with renderers.sharedMaterial = snowyWeedMaterial

#

so it doesnt have to keep duplicating the weed material

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 2:36 AM

#

ohh ok

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:36 AM

#

actually

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 2:36 AM

#

good thing i recovered the repo

#

lol

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:36 AM

#

iassume you want chameleon compatibility

#

one second

#

okay yeah

#

[HarmonyPatch(typeof(MoldSpreadManager), "Start")]
[HarmonyPostfix]
static void MoldSpreadManagerPostStart(MoldSpreadManager __instance)
{
    if (Configuration.fancyShrouds.Value)
        FoliageDiffuser.ApplyToRenderers(__instance.moldPrefab.GetComponentsInChildren<Renderer>().Where(rend => rend.gameObject.layer != 22));
}

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 2:37 AM

#

im running a burger joint rn

sharp finch Jan 21, 2025, 2:37 AM

#

so you should also postfix start and do [HarmonyAfter("butterystancakes.lethalcompany.chameleon")]

#

oh my godnes

dense hull Jan 21, 2025, 2:38 AM

#

sinful jungle im running a burger joint rn

this is peak

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:43 AM

#

actually it mightb e something else memory leaking

#

I thought it was snowy weeds due to the sheer spam

#

the log was nothing but spam from it

#

but my ram is just passively climbing on the moon atm

#

started at 5 GB and just goes up 0.1 every little bit

dense hull Jan 21, 2025, 2:44 AM

#

beenormal

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:44 AM

#

beenormal

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 2:44 AM

#

what is that

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:44 AM

#

the log has nothing dawg this sucks ass

#

everything is just usal letthal company log

dense hull Jan 21, 2025, 2:45 AM

#

sinful jungle what is that

https://tenor.com/view/abelha-gif-14433121352321093766

Tenor

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 2:45 AM

#

no not that

#

the like

#

task manager thing

#

oh is that linux

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:45 AM

#

linux

#

gnome desktop environment

dense hull Jan 21, 2025, 2:45 AM

#

oh lmao

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 2:45 AM

#

i wanna get debian so bad

#

but im scared of change lol

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:46 AM

#

do you have an nvidia gpu?

#

Trollface

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 2:47 AM

#

yeah

#

i know the drivers suck

#

outside of windows

#

iirc

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:47 AM

#

I spent 9 hours making my fucking drivers and monitor work

#

with the help of an arch linux user the entire time

#

sigma

#

thank you nvidia for being awesome

#

I had a hyper specific bug with my monitor and gpu setup that nobody has basically ever had before

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 2:48 AM

#

what distro do you have tho

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:49 AM

#

linux mint

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 2:49 AM

#

ohhhh

#

mint is pretty

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:49 AM

#

cinnamon edition 🤑

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:49 AM

#

glass fulcrum I had a hyper specific bug with my monitor and gpu setup that nobody has basical...

so you might have some driver issues but nothing short of a few minutes to fix

#

thats atleast what the common trend seems to be
if you have an nvidia card you will either have no issues or minor issues

#

i just rolled a nat 1

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 2:50 AM

#

i wanna get like

#

some xcfe theme

#

like a windows xp one

#

lol

dense hull Jan 21, 2025, 2:50 AM

#

GOD'S LIGHT

#

whoops wrong thread

#

whatever

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 2:51 AM

#

sinful jungle some xcfe theme

mint has support for xcfe

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 2:53 AM

#

im aware hehe

#

so does deiban iirc

spring depot Jan 21, 2025, 2:54 AM

#

Debian my beloved plink

obtuse mortar Jan 21, 2025, 3:49 AM

#

linux losers

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 3:50 AM

#

microsoft sux

cunning steeple Jan 21, 2025, 10:06 AM

#

sinful jungle from my recycle bin

no

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 10:06 AM

#

what

cunning steeple Jan 21, 2025, 10:06 AM

#

get a version control 🥺🥺🥺

#

god damn it git has saved my life multiple times

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 10:07 AM

#

i use git desktop

cunning steeple Jan 21, 2025, 10:07 AM

#

😅😅

#

me too 🤭

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 10:07 AM

#

i simply had not published the repo yet

#

idk

cunning steeple Jan 21, 2025, 10:11 AM

#

that looks nice

half lion Jan 21, 2025, 1:55 PM

#

sinful jungle idk

rest in peace far distant crane 😔 ✊

#

But no srs, that looks rly good

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 9:22 PM

#

if mrov likes it im adding it

#

mrov is literally the weather guy

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 9:22 PM

#

half lion rest in peace far distant crane 😔 ✊

still on exp :D

zenith dust Jan 21, 2025, 9:22 PM

#

I was just about to suggest that

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 9:22 PM

#

no need

#

its already like that lol

#

this is specifically for "desert" moons, not "wasteland" moons

zenith dust Jan 21, 2025, 9:23 PM

#

oh? cool

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 9:23 PM

#

i might make it LLL tag based at some point and add a manual moon blacklist

zenith dust Jan 21, 2025, 9:23 PM

#

are the forest ones gonna have a different one?

zenith dust Jan 21, 2025, 9:23 PM

#

sinful jungle i might make it LLL tag based at some point and add a manual moon blacklist

that would be nice

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 9:23 PM

#

idk yet. maybe

#

tbh it might be good idea to split off hdri skies into its own mod at some point

#

but im soo lazy 🥹

#

id have to make an icon

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 9:36 PM

#

sinful jungle i might make it LLL tag based at some point and add a manual moon blacklist

what even are the LLL tags that exist

zenith dust Jan 21, 2025, 9:37 PM

#

glass fulcrum what even are the LLL tags that exist

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WO77KGJplIEC64qmBClOgfEEoFxrhMurCEqe9FKod8I/edit

Google Docs

LLL Vanilla Tags

#

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 9:38 PM

#

this is basically perfect for my use case

#

esp considering wasteland and canyon are two different tags

#

thing is, batby tagged Artifice as marsh, which i kinda disagree with :<

zenith dust Jan 21, 2025, 9:38 PM

#

yeah

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 9:38 PM

#

so for artifice im gonna do a special case

#

and ignore the tag

zenith dust Jan 21, 2025, 9:39 PM

#

it feels (as zeekerzz said) a mix of wasteland and forest

#

but military works

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 9:39 PM

#

personally i would put it in wasteland

#

military also works yeah

zenith dust Jan 21, 2025, 9:39 PM

#

to me it feels like wasteland but not as developed

#

also I like in vanilla that the skybox is the snowy one since it feels like its always cloudy

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 9:40 PM

#

i tried applying my snowy sky to artifice

#

but it actually felt too gloomy

#

lol

#

#

its super dark

zenith dust Jan 21, 2025, 9:41 PM

#

maybe if you do a unique artifice sky you could do an in between

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 9:42 PM

#

rn, its just the vanilla sky

#

which im honestly fine with

#

a darker wasteland sky

zenith dust Jan 21, 2025, 9:42 PM

#

yeah fair

#

it works

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 9:42 PM

#

it feels like it almost parallels experimentation in a way lol

zenith dust Jan 21, 2025, 9:45 PM

#

I really like Retinue since it hits that sweet spot of being as developed as experimentation while being actually useful to loot

sinful jungle Jan 21, 2025, 9:45 PM

#

SAME

#

i love the train carts

#

i have no idea where the log is tho xd

zenith dust Jan 21, 2025, 9:46 PM

#

||its around the fire exit area on the right (scanning helps to find it)|| the spoiler is the log's location if you want it

#

||not in the building||

cunning steeple Jan 21, 2025, 11:15 PM

#

sinful jungle if mrov likes it im adding it

oh dear

#

my opinion became relevant

#

that's a bad sign 🤭

glass fulcrum Jan 21, 2025, 11:16 PM

#

cunning steeple my opinion became relevant

Trollface

#

is my opinion relevant

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 12:38 AM

#

yes!

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 12:39 AM

#

glass fulcrum is my opinion relevant

thoughts ?

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 12:39 AM

#

sinful jungle idk

on this

crude valley Jan 22, 2025, 1:43 AM

#

sinful jungle thing is, batby tagged Artifice as marsh, which i kinda disagree with :<

I wasn’t super sure here. As JackDeDestroyer said it’s a mix of wasteland and forest which i’d semi argue is in the ballpark of Marsh but i guess it depends on how closely you associate the word marsh with something like a Minecraft swamp or not. The reason why I didn’t mark it as Wasteland is due to Desert, Forest & Tundra having specifically related themes and Artifice doesn’t align close enough to Experimentation in that way imo

#

At the end of the day I really kinda just made them up so they might not be perfect

sharp finch Jan 22, 2025, 1:58 AM

#

"marsh" implies water and artifice is completely devoid of water barring floods

#

so i dont feel like it's a particularly strong correlation in any sense

crude valley Jan 22, 2025, 2:01 AM

#

fair

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 2:28 AM

#

@crude valley just out of curiosity, why is masked not marked as killable?

#

or is this wrong

obtuse mortar Jan 22, 2025, 2:28 AM

#

I'm surprised no one caught that before

crude valley Jan 22, 2025, 2:30 AM

#

i don't even know if anyone's used enemy tags before

#

i'll probably fix it 😄

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 2:30 AM

#

oh idk what they're for tbh

#

i just saw it on the doc

sand rivet Jan 22, 2025, 2:31 AM

#

I use em pikaSip

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 2:31 AM

#

sickboy sighting..

#

hello

#

did you see the funny

sand rivet Jan 22, 2025, 2:32 AM

#

the funny?

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 2:32 AM

#

sinful jungle idk

.

#

i think im gonna separate my hdri stuff into its own clientside mod

sand rivet Jan 22, 2025, 2:32 AM

#

oooh?

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 2:32 AM

#

idk what 2 clal it tho

#

and make it based on content tags with config stuff

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 10:37 PM

#

Rebalanced Moons + Atlas

#

The HDRI skies option is being split off into a sister mod, Atlas, which will be fully client-side. It'll have custom HDRI skyboxes for every LLL level tag that is commonly used. (As well as a user blacklist for moons)
https://thunderstore.io/c/lethal-company/p/dopadream/Atlas/

Thunderstore

Atlas v1.0.0

Adds dynamic HDRI skyboxes to moons based on theme

mental breach Jan 22, 2025, 10:39 PM

#

sinful jungle The HDRI skies option is being split off into a sister mod, Atlas, which will be...

Finally no more random Google image skybox

#

🔥

summer pewterBOT Jan 22, 2025, 10:40 PM

#

sinful jungle The HDRI skies option is being split off into a sister mod, Atlas, which will be...

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 10:40 PM

#

ill edit that with a link when its up

sand rivet Jan 22, 2025, 10:41 PM

#

sinful jungle The HDRI skies option is being split off into a sister mod, Atlas, which will be...

I'd like to check the github for it later plink

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 10:41 PM

#

it will have one!

#

this will be the first release

#

wasteland i wanna keep OG, and marsh is only used by artifice, so idk what to do for that :P

wind marlin Jan 22, 2025, 10:59 PM

#

sinful jungle The HDRI skies option is being split off into a sister mod, Atlas, which will be...

Kirby ability

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 11:03 PM

#

i didnt know kirby had the ability to change the sky

wind marlin Jan 22, 2025, 11:03 PM

#

so true but also it's giving

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 11:04 PM

#

what is that

wind marlin Jan 22, 2025, 11:04 PM

#

😭

#

It's Mirror (so unrelated) but imagine if kirby had the ability to change the sky

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 11:04 PM

#

ohhhh

#

wait i see what you mean lol

#

i made it with game-icons.net xd

#

same as chameleon

wind marlin Jan 22, 2025, 11:05 PM

#

oh peak

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 11:13 PM

#

umm

#

@crude valley why is leveltags deprecated

#

:v

crude valley Jan 22, 2025, 11:13 PM

#

because contenttags

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 11:13 PM

#

oh

#

umm

crude valley Jan 22, 2025, 11:14 PM

#

leveltags been deprecated before ur mod existed 😛

sinful jungle Jan 22, 2025, 11:14 PM

#

xd

#

silly me

frozen frost Jan 22, 2025, 11:22 PM

#

https://tenor.com/view/gary-there-i-am-spongebob-spongebob-commerical-gif-22318667

Tenor

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 12:43 AM

#

wtf

#

@crude valley idk if im going crazy or smth, but im iterating through all of embrions content tags and it only has "paid, rocky, vanilla"

#

thats all its printing out

#

where is amethyst :P

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 12:45 AM

#

~~your going crazy~~

#

i have to update the tags

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 12:46 AM

#

oh so its not me

#

i was about to double check lol

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 12:46 AM

#

it is not

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 12:46 AM

#

no worries i can just check for planet name in this case

#

but i thought i was going loco

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 12:46 AM

#

do you and buttery wanna pitch me a better tag for artifice in the next day or two

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 12:47 AM

#

i was about to ping her lol

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 12:47 AM

#

regretfully this is the only thing i can think of when artifice is brought up https://dontstarve.fandom.com/wiki/Deciduous_Forest

Don't Starve Wiki

Deciduous Forest

The Deciduous Forest, or Birchnut Forest, is a Biome found in the Reign of Giants DLC. It is very similar to the regular Forest biome, with the exception that all the trees are Birchnut Trees...

#

artifice definitely feels autumnal

#

lots of barren trees and reds and oranges

#

outside of that idk what it's actually called

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 12:48 AM

#

idk

#

artifice is really barren

#

it has barely any trees, and the trees it does have are dead asf

#

this feels super "wasteland"y to me, but thats just IMO

#

maybe not in the same way as experimentation though

#

There is one (1) alive tree on artifice, and its the one the mimcket resides on

#

Super big wasteland vibes imo

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 1:02 AM

#

Now Atlas is something I really am looking forward to, this game’s skyboxes are something I have not really thought about besides the trivia of what image they are

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 1:09 AM

#

sinful jungle this feels super "wasteland"y to me, but thats just IMO

Has that dam ever been there before?

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 1:09 AM

#

always

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 1:09 AM

#

vanilla artifice has always had a dam

#

since it was available to route

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 1:09 AM

#

I can see why Batby chose marsh a bit then despite the lack of water

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 1:10 AM

#

vow has a dam and actual water and isn't a marsh

#

also if we're getting super technical rend has a dam too but that's neither here nor there

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 1:10 AM

#

lol

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 1:10 AM

#

possibly not even intended

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 1:10 AM

#

sharp finch also if we're getting super technical rend has a dam too but that's neither here...

Tbf that’s out of bounds, so

#

For Rend

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 1:15 AM

#

Something tells me Buttery does not like Artifice being labeled as a Marsh moon

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 1:15 AM

#

here you go @sand rivet

#

https://github.com/dopadream/Atlas/blob/main/Plugin.cs

GitHub

Atlas/Plugin.cs at main · dopadream/Atlas

Adds new dynamic HDRI Skyboxes to Lethal Company. Contribute to dopadream/Atlas development by creating an account on GitHub.

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 1:32 AM

#

Atlas?

#

Where’s P-body

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 1:33 AM

#

That will be the next splinter mod

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 1:48 AM

#

zenith dust https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WO77KGJplIEC64qmBClOgfEEoFxrhMurCEqe9FKo...

amythest

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 1:49 AM

#

yea its a typo

#

i let batby no already

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 1:49 AM

#

I let him know first I think lmao

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 1:49 AM

#

o

#

i told him just a bit ago lol

#

he might've forgotten

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 1:50 AM

#

#

beat ya to it nerrddd

#

tho you might've done it first still LOL

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 1:50 AM

#

when i say a bit ago i mean like

#

5 minutes ago

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 1:51 AM

#

oh LMAO

#

https://tenor.com/view/dog-hypnotizing-hypnotizing-dog-hyptonizing-you-hypnotizing-you-собака-гипнотизирует-gif-14437882061713379771

Tenor

#

no you didn't

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 1:54 AM

#

If it’s not on github I’m legally allowed to forget

#

Personally I think Experimentation’s theme is closer to “Wastelands” because of the theming of the manmade stuff in combination of the biome. I’d borderline consider Outback if it wasn’t so australian pilled

#

Where as Artifice is more Barren i guess

#

Barren isn’t the worst either tbh

#

Little generic maybe

cinder jackal Jan 23, 2025, 2:01 AM

#

sinful jungle The HDRI skies option is being split off into a sister mod, Atlas, which will be...

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 2:24 AM

#

crude valley If it’s not on github I’m legally allowed to forget

nah I will never ask you to change that

#

it's too funny

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 3:10 AM

#

i will, bc it threw me off when i was making atlas lol

#

i was wondering why i couldnt get amethyst skies to work

#

for one, the tag is misspelled, and another, the vanilla moon its supposed to adhere to (embrion) is entirely missing the tag haha

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 4:17 AM

#

never chnage it batby please............

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 4:59 AM

#

would you guys like to see artifice rebalances

#

i dont really have issues with it but ive noticed a lot of people complain abt it for some reason

obtuse mortar Jan 23, 2025, 4:59 AM

#

sure

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:00 AM

#

i just need to look into that more because i dont exactly see what the issue is

#

i guess people just dont like mineshaft?

obtuse mortar Jan 23, 2025, 5:00 AM

#

i like mineshaft, might be an unpopular opinion though

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:00 AM

#

i do too

#

but there are still ppl in zeek discord asking why artifice was nerfed

#

what even happened

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 5:03 AM

#

artifice was the meta for pro players and zeekerss wanted to increase map diversity overall so he tried to nerf artifice so pro players wouldn't be there 24/7

#

(last time i checked) a majority of that community doesn't do high scores based on versioning so any nerf ruins their scores

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:07 AM

#

sinful jungle i just need to look into that more because i dont exactly see what the issue is

interior multiplier reduced 2x -> 1.8x

#

scrap counts reduced 31-37 -> 26-30

#

75% manor 25% factory -> 50% mine 35% manor 15% factory

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:08 AM

#

meh

#

that feels reasonable

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:15 AM

#

reasonable yes

#

but it doesn't really make anything much better

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:17 AM

#

I think it's fine

#

idk

#

i feel like ppl are overreacting

#

that moon still gives the best payout

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:17 AM

#

sinful jungle i feel like ppl are overreacting

i think so too but i think it was nonetheless a bad change

#

on average you're probably getting about the same payout because of the mineshaft bonus + size decrease

#

but if you were full clearing artifice before it's just a reduction of the skill ceiling

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:19 AM

#

i dont care about adhering to a high skill ceiling

#

genuinely

#

i play this game very casually

#

so

glass fulcrum Jan 23, 2025, 5:19 AM

#

crude valley (last time i checked) a majority of that community doesn't do high scores based ...

yeah thats the problem basically

#

its kinda frustrating

raw rampart Jan 23, 2025, 5:22 AM

#

sinful jungle i play this game very casually

I think that's where you can have the most fun

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:22 AM

#

sinful jungle i dont care about adhering to a high skill ceiling

even in this case it still doesn't make much sense

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:22 AM

#

why

#

its just smaller and less loot

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:22 AM

#

if you weren't full clearing artifice before, it will feel about the same as before

#

so all it does is reduce accessibility to one type of player and make no changes for the other

#

if it's not an improvement, why make it at all?

#

the change

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:23 AM

#

2.0 -> 1.8 is a pretty big difference from my experience with tweaking interior sizes

#

high skill or not

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:23 AM

#

it is but density remains almost unchanged due to how much the loot was decreased

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:23 AM

#

i feel like making it smaller and just decreasing the loot makes it easier overall to clear

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:23 AM

#

and mineshafts are exorbitantly large + artifice benefits the least from the +6 bonus, except for titan

#

if the intent was to make artifice "more equal" to titan then i disagree that it was effective

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:24 AM

#

i doubt it

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:24 AM

#

artifice costs over 2x as much as titan so putting it in an equal category at all feels antagonistic to balance

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:24 AM

#

it is still a very expensive moon

#

i think he just wanted to make it more primarily mineshaft focused

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:25 AM

#

and artifice has no other moons in the same category to balance it around

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:25 AM

#

so he decreased the interior size

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:25 AM

#

imo that still doesnt explain why loot got nerfed so hard

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:25 AM

#

because the size is smaller ?

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:25 AM

#

keep in mind the loot nerf happened before mineshafts were given a loot bonus

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:26 AM

#

sinful jungle because the size is smaller ?

dine lost 2 max items (1 item on average) when it was shrunk

#

same for titan

#

artifice lost 7 max items and 5 min items for what is proportionally about the same size difference as both

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:26 AM

#

sharp finch dine lost 2 max items (1 item on average) when it was shrunk

its barely below titan's scrap count

#

and titan has a larger interior

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:26 AM

#

dine went 1.95x -> 1.8x

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:26 AM

#

the density is bigger overall than titan

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:26 AM

#

it's true, yeah

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:26 AM

#

its just not insanely big

#

anymore

#

the scrap count i mean

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:27 AM

#

which is weird because that's what you'd expect for an $800 difference

#

right

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:27 AM

#

idk

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 5:27 AM

#

anyways i dont feel that strongly about it either

#

but i am at least trying to play devil's advocate here

#

and i do still think, overall, it was a net negative

#

just not one that matters that much for my friends at our skill level

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:28 AM

#

this might be kinda mean to certain players i just dont rlly think like

#

i dont think lethal is the type of game to be designing around high level play

#

in general

#

i figured people would've caught on by the time scrap days were added

#

it feels very obvious

#

its a very jokey bullshitty game

#

that being said

#

in this mod titan is primarily mineshaft

#

so it feels kinda samey that artifice is too

#

i have considered reverting art to mansion but im not sure

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 5:39 AM

#

sinful jungle i feel like ppl are overreacting

Little late here (was dumpster diving in another thread), but I do not like the Artifice nerf because he just made the endgame worse with no compensation. He could have made Titan better (which also would give room for making Dine better) or made Artifice harder to justify the high payout (13 indoor power is rather low).

It being 50% Mineshaft when Mineshaft is the worst interior also hurts. Artifice is still the best moon too, so these changes did not mean anything besides dividing the player base. Kinda just feels like Zeekerss giving the serious players the middle finger, which imo is not good practice (even if those players are pretty snobby).

#

I saw some very light speculation that the Artifice nerf may have been done with Liquidation in mind but I think that ship has sailed. I still do hope Liquidation is better than v56 Artifice though so everyone can be united on the newest version again

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 5:53 AM

#

I don't get the whining personally

#

if clearing art is about the same difficulty and the only change is mineshaft being there more then I don't get why it matters at all outside of like, getting a bigger number

wind marlin Jan 23, 2025, 5:55 AM

#

I don't think it's too hard to piece together that people don't enjoy playing on Mineshaft

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 5:57 AM

#

no yeah I can't really piece together why lol

#

is it the tunnels?

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:57 AM

#

i think its because they dont use Terraformer9x's RebalancedMineshaft™️

#

like true sigmas

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 5:57 AM

#

i play the vanilla game no mods no qol no nothing

#

bare ass butt booty naked game

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:58 AM

#

its just a bit bigger

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 5:58 AM

#

like zeekdeity intended

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:58 AM

#

than the other interiors

#

i think

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 5:58 AM

#

So like the issue with Mineshaft is that it's generation can be incredibly hostile

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 5:58 AM

#

and loot is only usually found in caves

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 5:58 AM

#

it's why despite v69 having the highest potential for highest quota, people don't play it often because Mineshaft can just screw you over really hard.

#

When studying vanilla Mineshaft, I've come across a lot of layouts on Artifice Mineshaft that just look unreasonable to clear out.

woven tiger Jan 23, 2025, 6:00 AM

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unique wyvern i play the vanilla game no mods no qol no nothing

what about my mod....

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:01 AM

#

woven tiger what about my mod....

NO MODS

#

i hate mods.

#

I will never mod the game.

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 6:01 AM

#

bro hates my content smh

#

killing you rn

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:02 AM

#

i fucking hate your mods I hope they flop!!!!!

#

hard!!!

woven tiger Jan 23, 2025, 6:02 AM

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unique wyvern I will never mod the game.

what about the mod that you made STUPID!!!

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:02 AM

#

jk i like em :3

wind marlin Jan 23, 2025, 6:02 AM

#

Scrap is sort of annoying to find

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:02 AM

#

woven tiger what about the mod that *you* made STUPID!!!

wgi= I never made any mods.

wind marlin Jan 23, 2025, 6:02 AM

#

Caves don't feel fun for many probably

#

the Underwater parts of caves are atrocious

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:02 AM

#

gloomy moth When studying vanilla Mineshaft, I've come across a lot of layouts on Artifice M...

yeah thats fair enough

woven tiger Jan 23, 2025, 6:02 AM

#

unique wyvern wgi= I never made any mods.

#1276345828671225946

woven tiger Jan 23, 2025, 6:02 AM

#

wind marlin the Underwater parts of caves are atrocious

it's a silly tile....

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:02 AM

#

I get now that there's a lot more info on how to play vanilla Mineshaft nowadays but I still think even with what's known about it that it's simply an unfair interior.

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:02 AM

#

I can see how people wouldn't like speedrunning that version but like

#

I really do agree w the changes zeekers made and I don't mind em personally

woven tiger Jan 23, 2025, 6:03 AM

#

mineshaft generates too big is the main complaint i've seen?

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:03 AM

#

i think calling it unfair is a little funny

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:03 AM

#

crude valley i think calling it unfair is a little funny

yeag when the game is, ykno

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:03 AM

#

It's not so much the size, it's how loot can generate in it.

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:03 AM

#

I think that's the whole point

woven tiger Jan 23, 2025, 6:03 AM

#

woven tiger mineshaft generates too big is the main complaint i've seen?

and i can confirm it because i am a speedrunner!!! i held a world record for fastest three person nutcracker kill at one point!!

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:04 AM

#

i dont know if it's the whole point i just think it's not the word we'd wanna use here

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:04 AM

#

I disagree that the game should be wholely unfair like that.

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:04 AM

#

gloomy moth I disagree that the game should be wholely unfair like that.

well no I mean high quota artifice

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:04 AM

#

I feel like inconsistent is just a more accurate term for this

wind marlin Jan 23, 2025, 6:04 AM

#

I think it's ok to just say Mineshaft is borderline between fun and unfun

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:05 AM

#

I played a lot of pre-mineshaft artifice and while it was fun it went on way too long, like you'd just be able to stockpile shit for ages and I never felt like there was a moment where the game was like "gotcha bitch!"

wind marlin Jan 23, 2025, 6:05 AM

#

we love the cave cracks not giving any indication of when a monster is coming out of them

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 6:05 AM

#

the barnacle ball appears

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:05 AM

#

felt too in control all the time

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:05 AM

#

It is inconsistent, but it can generate simply unfair mineshafts.

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:05 AM

#

fun and unfun isn't really tangible

wind marlin Jan 23, 2025, 6:05 AM

#

feel good vs blegh?

woven tiger Jan 23, 2025, 6:05 AM

#

wind marlin we love the cave cracks not giving any indication of when a monster is coming ou...

cave cracks?

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:05 AM

#

extremely worse

wind marlin Jan 23, 2025, 6:05 AM

#

there's cracks in the walls of the caves that replace vents

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:05 AM

#

What I mean by "unfair" is that I've seen Artifice Mineshafts that generate both entrances super close and 80% of loot will be clustered away at the other end of the map nowhere near the entrances.

wind marlin Jan 23, 2025, 6:05 AM

#

but there is no sound indicator that an enemy is in one

#

Maneater's nest always being in caves if it's Mineshaft is pretty neat I think

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:07 AM

#

gloomy moth What I mean by "unfair" is that I've seen Artifice Mineshafts that generate both...

tbf thats what titan feels like most of the time

#

atleast to me lmao

woven tiger Jan 23, 2025, 6:07 AM

#

wind marlin there's cracks in the walls of the caves that replace vents

i didn't know those existed, i've never seen them

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:08 AM

#

wind marlin but there is no sound indicator that an enemy is in one

ye I think that's fucked up

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:08 AM

#

The thing with Titan is that you can atleast score pretty big with Titan without full clearing

wind marlin Jan 23, 2025, 6:08 AM

#

woven tiger i didn't know those existed, i've never seen them

Yeah because they're also hard to see if ur not looking for them lool

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:08 AM

#

but idk! I feel like artifice being more inconsistent is a + but I get why the "bigger number better" gang wouldn't like that

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:09 AM

#

i don't think inconsistency like that is good period

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:09 AM

#

respectfully though, no shade to the speedrun community but objectively you only aim for a bigger number

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:09 AM

#

scrap should absolutely be reasonably evenly distributed

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:09 AM

#

I mean tbh, most lethal speedrunners don't play on any version but v40 still

#

I know some branch out to other versions but typically v40 is still seen as the most reliable

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 6:10 AM

#

I feel like most of y'all don't take into account that

#

the main objective of the game when it's finished will be to get the drill parts

#

That's why they're left unbalanced, as Zeekerss said

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:10 AM

#

it just doesn't really matter I don't think

woven tiger Jan 23, 2025, 6:10 AM

#

unique wyvern but idk! I feel like artifice being more inconsistent is a + but I get why the "...

there's the matter of normal casual people who also have to deal with that inconsistency

wind marlin Jan 23, 2025, 6:10 AM

#

the 7

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:10 AM

#

still not a good reason for moons to be balanced so poorly to the point where it is disadvantageous to visit most of them

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:11 AM

#

lethal company is a vessle for the journey rather than the destination

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:11 AM

#

gloomy moth I know some branch out to other versions but typically v40 is still seen as the ...

stone age speedrunning

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 6:11 AM

#

unique wyvern stone age speedrunning

😭

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:11 AM

#

i completely understand the drill parts being the reason to visit planets that are generally seen as unfavorable now

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 6:11 AM

#

Is v45 the Bronze Age then?

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:11 AM

#

but it doesnt change the fact that they are unfavorable now and it sucks not having an incentive to explore most of the content

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:12 AM

#

woven tiger there's the matter of normal casual people who also have to deal with that incon...

I've never heard of someone other than speedrunners and hardcore fans complaining about artifice

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:12 AM

#

and none of those other players are praising the artifice changes either

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:12 AM

#

to be clear the inconsistent scrap spawn points in mineshaft is not the same problem as artifice specifically

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:12 AM

#

like in the groups I play w nobody ever really complains about art

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:12 AM

#

these are two different things

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:12 AM

#

like i was saying before, it negatively affects one group of players for no tangible benefit to the others

#

it just feels all around "not good"

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:13 AM

#

(on a side note, mineshaft is also just really buggy as an interior)

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 6:13 AM

#

Ye, if there was some sort of compensation I would be fine with the nerf. As is though it is just a middle finger to the sweats

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:13 AM

#

sharp finch and none of those other players are praising the artifice changes either

I mean I just don't think anybody I play with noticed there were even changes to artifice lol

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:13 AM

#

so again, why make the changes? why were they necessary?

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:13 AM

#

I think if people see it as a middle finger they are being weird about it

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 6:14 AM

#

Why else would he do it

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:14 AM

#

gloomy moth (on a side note, mineshaft is also just really buggy as an interior)

thing I hate the most about mineshaft is the collission on the water tunnels

#

or rather I think that's the only thing I dislike about it

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:14 AM

#

the intent is to increase map diversity. this comment is purposely ignoring the execution aspect of it

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:14 AM

#

I mean... it's not unreasonable to think he did it as a middle finger partially.

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:14 AM

#

I think it's unreasonable

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:14 AM

#

Considering the jetpack "streamlined" mode

#

if he's petty enough to add something like that then I don't put it past him.

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 6:15 AM

#

crude valley the intent is to increase map diversity. **this comment is purposely ignoring th...

I guess I can understand that

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:15 AM

#

You mean the thing he started tinkering around with and then got harrased about in a experimental branch of an early access game?

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:15 AM

#

gloomy moth Considering the jetpack "streamlined" mode

wassat?

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:15 AM

#

no

#

long story

#

i will explain in a second

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 6:15 AM

#

unique wyvern wassat?

Long story short the v50 betas had much more severe Jetpack changes than the final release, and people haaaaaaaated them

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:16 AM

#

crude valley You mean the thing he started tinkering around with and then got harrased about ...

(presumably) in response to all the jetpack criticism he added an unused feature to the jetpacks called "streamlineJetpack" that makes it teleport you between the ship and the entrance

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:16 AM

#

snow kite Long story short the v50 betas had much more severe Jetpack changes than the fin...

well yeah I know but what do you mean "streamlined" mode

#

lol

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:16 AM

#

btw, not to shill but I did open this mod-idea thread a little while ago discussing an alternate gameflow that would allow people to explore moons more freely without it feeling detrimental to do so. https://discord.com/channels/1168655651455639582/1328118636895801384

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:16 AM

#

and play an applause sound effect when doing so

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:16 AM

#

I played that beta, I also hated the jetpack changes

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:16 AM

#

there is no way you can possibly explain that change being made other than it being a spiteful response to the jetpack criticism

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:16 AM

#

Oh no that one i get

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:16 AM

#

im not saying it was necessarily unfair

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 6:17 AM

#

Istg I'm the only person who prefers the v50 beta jetpack 💔

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:17 AM

#

i just slightly feel like it was justified

#

where-as the artiface thing imo is just intent executed poorly

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:17 AM

#

and it's not like he didn't compromise and give people back buffed jetpacks anyway

#

but it is definitely apparent that he has, at times, been willing to spitefully make changes to poke fun at his critics

#

for better or worse

#

i am also doubtful the artifice changes were a middle finger to anybody

#

i agree it was probably intent executed very poorly

#

but i still think it's a bad change

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:18 AM

#

dense hull Istg I'm the only person who prefers the v50 beta jetpack 💔

I think it just didn't feel dynamic enough, I vastly prefer the old jetpack (pre-v50 beta) despite it blowing you up randomly, it was sooo funny

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 6:18 AM

#

crude valley where-as the artiface thing imo is just intent executed poorly

The lost potential aspect of it is what I dislike the most, we could have gotten Titan/Dine buff or gotten Artifice difficulty increase to make it the proper hardest moon, but instead…

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 6:19 AM

#

unique wyvern I think it just didn't feel dynamic enough, I vastly prefer the old jetpack (pre...

I just preferred that it be jank like the Cruiser considering how overpowered it is
I like it being more lower toward the ground, within potential sight of forest keepers and old birds

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:19 AM

#

In general I have a very different perspective on how I personally think moons should be balanced so it's hard for me to specifically suggest any theoretical solution because I don't know if it would actually allign with the intent of the game

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 6:19 AM

#

I think the old system combined with the v50 beta nerfs would be good

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:19 AM

#

dense hull I just preferred that it be jank like the Cruiser considering how overpowered it...

yeh, I like jankpack

woven tiger Jan 23, 2025, 6:19 AM

#

has anyone made a mod that makes the jetpack back into its v49 form?

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 6:19 AM

#

Yea

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:19 AM

#

jetpacks exploding in mid air because of a bug felt bad and should have been patched

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:19 AM

#

there was one when v50 beta was out

#

I think

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:20 AM

#

and it's a little frustrating, to me, anyway, that it's the only major issue about jetpacks he never fixed

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:20 AM

#

sharp finch jetpacks exploding in mid air because of a bug felt bad and should have been pat...

yes but funny

woven tiger Jan 23, 2025, 6:20 AM

#

unique wyvern there was one when v50 beta was out

game has been past v50 beta for some time

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:20 AM

#

everything else about v49 jetpacks was good though

#

with the mod to fix falling damage

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:20 AM

#

woven tiger has anyone made a mod that makes the jetpack back into its v49 form?

yes i made one

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 6:20 AM

#

sharp finch and it's a little frustrating, to me, anyway, that it's the only major issue abo...

I'm pretty sure certain bugs at this point Zeekerss considers features now lol

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:20 AM

#

sharp finch and it's a little frustrating, to me, anyway, that it's the only major issue abo...

really? maybe its cuz I play w your jetpack mod a lot but did he really never fix random explosions?

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:20 AM

#

Personally outside of maybe level design based environmental challenges I think lethal would probably be a stronger game if the moons weren't actually harder or easier than eachother to a notable extent

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:20 AM

#

I know you can randomly blow up w the belt bag

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:20 AM

#

unique wyvern really? maybe its cuz I play w your jetpack mod a lot but did he really never fi...

no

#

if you dont use my mod you will still randomly explode

#

belt bag or not

#

belt bags just make it happen way more frequently

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:21 AM

#

epic...

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:21 AM

#

dense hull I'm pretty sure certain bugs at this point Zeekerss considers features now lol

He should make it a feature then instead of just leaving them in as bugs.

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:21 AM

#

yes, i dont mind the jetpack having a speed limit that explodes you for traveling too fast

#

but the cruiser has an alarm if you drive it in park and a visible health bar

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 6:21 AM

#

crude valley Personally outside of maybe level design based environmental challenges I think ...

Maybe, though then game progression would be much less substantial

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:21 AM

#

the jetpack just explodes out of nowhere because of a bug and that feels bad

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 6:21 AM

#

gloomy moth He should make it a feature then instead of just leaving them in as bugs.

I wouldn't see the reason to add in what's already there really, even if it's a bug

#

Image unrelated

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:21 AM

#

gloomy moth He should make it a feature then instead of just leaving them in as bugs.

i mean isn't keeping the bug basically the same thing?

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 6:22 AM

#

Seems like a waste of time

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:22 AM

#

Kinda, although as Buttery explained, the beltbag makes it happen more often due to how the bug works

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:22 AM

#

snow kite Maybe, though then game progression would be much less substantial

I honestly just don't care. IMO the game is at it's best when your exploring a variety of moons with various pieces of equipment and it would be great if that was how the game gets experienced for a majority of the time

dense hull Jan 23, 2025, 6:22 AM

#

How's it work again?

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:23 AM

#

It's a collision error, the basic explanation of it is that the jetpack thinks you're running into yourself.

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:23 AM

#

dense hull How's it work again?

the random mid-air explosions are caused because of crash code that kills the player if it detects a solid object in the direction the jetpack is moving

#

that collision code only runs past a certain speed (which is why the jetpacks appear to have a "speed limit")

#

said collision code erroneously detects the player as a wall and kills you because you "crash into yourself"

#

but it only happens at certain angles

#

with a belt bag, the angle doesn't matter, it always collides with the belt bag on your waist and you die

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 6:25 AM

#

crude valley I honestly just don't care. IMO the game is at it's best when your exploring a v...

I just do not think it has to be a one-or-the other. In my modpack I rebalanced the game to be more progression-based, with moons being more expensive and there being more tiers. With this you cannot just slingshot to the endgame moon(s) by quota 2, you work up to them while seeing a bunch of different moons along the way. This is just one idea though, I am sure there are others if you are willing to play around with balancing

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:25 AM

#

Forsure, I just personally think it's stronger the way I pitched it. I totally get that there's other ways of handling it

#

I do think in general though the game is founded on being wayyyyyyy closer to a casual minigame vibe than anything remotely competitive

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:26 AM

#

yeaah

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:26 AM

#

imo it's not about "competitive"

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:26 AM

#

though it kinda.. pushes both ways

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:26 AM

#

balance doesn't mean "competitively viable"

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 6:27 AM

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I agree, though forcing players to conform to this is bad design imo, if people want to sweat Artifice then why stop them (insert comment about v60 nerf)

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:27 AM

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if a game has 6 minigames and 2 of them are just frustrating and unrewarding, you are going to keep picking the other 4 minigames that are more fun, and then the time spent developing that content is wasted

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:27 AM

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Well with anything where there is a score, there is bound to be competition in most cases.

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:27 AM

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snow kite I agree, though forcing players to conform to this is bad design imo, if people ...

Catering to everyone is bad design

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:28 AM

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sharp finch if a game has 6 minigames and 2 of them are just frustrating and unrewarding, yo...

I agree with this and I don't want my previous message to convey that i think balance and that intent are the same thing

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:28 AM

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sharp finch if a game has 6 minigames and 2 of them are just frustrating and unrewarding, yo...

you could "fix" this by making minigame selection random, but that's just removing player choice and forcing them to experience stuff they don't find fun

unique wyvern Jan 23, 2025, 6:28 AM

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gloomy moth Well with anything where there is a score, there is bound to be competition in m...

also challenge moons were implemented in like, v49 so he's pushed for a dual focus for a long time

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:28 AM

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"balancing" moons, in my opinion, only matters if every moon is fun and viable enough to visit at any point of progression

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experimentation and artifice don't need to be viable at the same time in a playthrough

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but in its current state, there is never any reason to visit offense. as much as i hate to say, there is no reason to visit dine. there is no reason to visit embrion

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:29 AM

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sharp finch experimentation and artifice don't need to be viable at the same time in a playt...

Mhmmm I overall agree with the vision but I do actually disagree with this

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I think there's a lot of potential ideas that could increase the difficulty of lower moons dynamically

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:29 AM

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you visit them once or twice for "the spectacle" and then the only reason you ever visit them again is because you get bored visiting the good moons and have to visit bad moons that hate you just for variety

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balancing everything is a difficult game but when you can literally make statements like "assurance is better offense" and "rend is better dine" it is a huge problem for design

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 6:31 AM

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crude valley Catering to everyone is bad design

Lethal never did cater to everyone though, people know it is a party game but choose to play sweaty if they want. Stuff like Jetpack Streamline mode suggest Zeekerss has some level of hostility towards the sweaty players though, hence my comment

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:32 AM

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The issue is that Lethal realistically only has one meta to follow people who wanna make the 'furthest' progress, which is Adamance then Artifice over and over.

obtuse mortar Jan 23, 2025, 6:32 AM

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the only time i ever really went to every moon and all moons were in play for me was during lethal bingo, where moons would have different stuff i'd need, that was pretty fun, hated adamance, why is adamance pure hell 😭

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:32 AM

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You can choose how you wanna play it all you want but the game doesn't have to be designed to empower that experience

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:32 AM

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snow kite Lethal never did cater to everyone though, people know it is a party game but ch...

Stuff like Jetpack Streamline mode suggest Zeekerss has some level of hostility towards the sweaty players though,
No it implies he got fed up with whiny ass children. If that happens to overlap with the sweaty players than 🤐

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:33 AM

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Ok but the changes were still really bad for the time.

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Jetpack was like the only reliable counter to giants back then.

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:34 AM

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crude valley You can choose how you wanna play it all you want but the game doesn't have to b...

i agree it doesn't necessarily have to pander to one specific community but i feel like you are letting this do a bit too much legwork at rejecting actual meaningful criticism

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:34 AM

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I'm not trying to reject I'm trying to put it in context

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:34 AM

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you don't have to be playing the game competitively to go to offense, get completely wiped by traps and awful monster combos, and then decide you don't want to visit anymore

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:34 AM

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gloomy moth Jetpack was like the only reliable counter to giants back then.

I think that's a problem with the giants tbh

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:34 AM

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when that happens every time you land on offense

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Lol

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 6:35 AM

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sharp finch experimentation and artifice don't need to be viable at the same time in a playt...

YouTuber Miraxa had an interesting take on this, he suggested every quota there is a “scrap bounty” where certain scrap(s) are worth more than normal. This could cause moons to be much more profitable than normal and incentivize going to them over another, normally better, moon. I think there is serious potential personally

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:35 AM

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sharp finch you don't have to be playing the game competitively to go to offense, get comple...

I have not disagreed with this

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:35 AM

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im not saying you have, i am being a little bit exaggerative

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but the point im mainly trying to make is that there is no defined line between "casual" and "competitive"

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:35 AM

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crude valley I think that's a problem with the giants tbh

It is in fairness. Zeekerss's whole intention was that he wanted people to dodge giants by hiding behind trees which does work to an extent.

glass fulcrum Jan 23, 2025, 6:35 AM

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Lethal company moon political discussion

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:35 AM

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if you consider "competitive" players to be those who understand the general feel of each moon, what types of threats you'll deal with, how generally profitable it is, etc.

gloomy moth Jan 23, 2025, 6:35 AM

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But on moons like Rend or Artifice, that's not really feasible.

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:36 AM

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even if you play the game casually, you only need to play each moon for a couple of days to get a general feel for how much profit a moon will generate. every time you go to orbit there is a number that says "this is how much you got, this is how much you could've gotten"

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and it's really easy to notice artifice presents really low increase in numbers compared to other moons like titan despite having double the price tag

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anybody can notice these issues, and you can choose to ignore them, and that's a valid playstyle - but i don't feel like it makes sense to consider that "the default"

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the game tells you "the only objective is surviving the profit quota"

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completing that objective for as long as possible means making as much money as you possibly can

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so it is natural for almost all players (who don't ignore the objective and play for fun, although like i said, that is a valid playstyle) to be looking at the best ways to most consistently generate the most profits

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which generally means visiting places that are safe and have lots of loot to discover

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:39 AM

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sharp finch but the point im mainly trying to make is that there is no defined line between ...

There's no defined line but plenty of things do get near it I think. At the end of the day competitive gameplay requires consistency and the foundations of this casual game are built upon randomness and in-explicitly explained mechanics that create some leeway and wiggle room about how things work. This inherently is going to create some friction in implementation and to some extent the solution is going to cater to one side more than other.

There's plenty of critiscm that absolutely relates to something that is about even though. The overall balance differences, inconsistent scrap dispersal etc. but the fact competitive players felt the artifice nerf was an insult imo is a massive misunderstanding of expectations from the game that they bought. That doesn't dismiss it as a problem it highlights how people reacted to the problem

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:40 AM

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sharp finch which generally means visiting places that are safe and have lots of loot to dis...

with this thought process in mind, anybody visiting embrion will immediately write it off as "this place is way too dangerous and has loot so shit there's no reason to come back here again"

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but that's fine because embrion is mostly about the spectacle, and being something really unique and interesting

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it doesn't necessarily need to fit into "the grand scheme" beyond being a cool place you discover and appreciate once or twice

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but moons like offense and dine don't really have any spectacle

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for the most part dine feels like a carbon copy of rend except every single part of it was made worse

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to the point where if you want "an experience like rend or dine" it is natural for players to pigeonhole themselves into exclusively visiting rend

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you can argue that is "optimizing the fun out of the game" but IMO it is the fault of the game for not providing an incentive to not do that

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artifice kind of sells itself enough on the spectacle since it's a unique biome, and still quite solid even after the nerfs

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but i still point to the fact that the nerfs don't hurt/help casual players at all, and only hurt the people who play for high scores

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so i don't think "the game appeals to a casual audience" really means anything, there

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undoing the nerfs would not remove any of the casual appeal

sinful jungle Jan 23, 2025, 6:43 AM

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this conversation feels circular

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:44 AM

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a game doesn't have to appeal to everyone, sure; but why take something that appeals to a larger group of people and just make it appeal to a smaller group of people?

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:44 AM

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sinful jungle this conversation feels circular

probably

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:45 AM

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crude valley There's no defined line but plenty of things do get near it I think. At the end ...

the fact competitive players felt the artifice nerf was an insult imo is a massive misunderstanding of expectations from the game that they bought. That doesn't dismiss it as a problem it highlights how people reacted to the problem
i agree

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and i don't even know who im posting in response to anymore, at this point

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i guess im just arguing with ghosts

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 6:46 AM

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sharp finch undoing the nerfs would not remove any of the casual appeal

This is so true. I played with a group of casual friends and they never wanted to go to Artifice, even in v50 and v56. They were put off by the high price tag and the large exterior (they did not know how to deal with Giants and Old Birds), and just stuck to the simpler Titan. I have also heard lots of stories that public lobbies with causal players tend to stick to Titan as well, it is the “casual moon” to me. Artifice nerf does not address this while making the experience worse for people who are good enough to go there regularly

wind marlin Jan 23, 2025, 6:46 AM

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them

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:46 AM

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I think if it was done better making competitive players play a more diverse set of levels would have been a good thing

I overall agree with what your saying but I do wanna highlight how much I agree with the whole incentive part. I think one of the biggest strengths of it being more of a casual game than competitive is that the solution to that doesn't always *need to be in the number balancing (this isn't me saying they shouldn't be balanced). The benefit is that a majority players are more than happy to ignore the number balancing if the level itself looks pretty or has a cool feature or something. The players wanna be entertained and there's a lot of leeway in achieving that

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:46 AM

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i dont disagree with that either

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but i think in the absence of levels having cool features, tweaking the numbers is the easiest way to add that incentive to explore other moons

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there is not 0 appeal to offense or dine

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offense has the cool fire exit trick, and sometimes playing really hard levels just to challenge yourself is fun

crude valley Jan 23, 2025, 6:47 AM

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or just to die in funny ways tbh

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:48 AM

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dine is a much smoother drive than rend (barring the horrible monster spawn rates)

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etc.

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if rend got some nerfs and dine got a bunch of buffs

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 6:48 AM

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sharp finch there is not 0 appeal to offense or dine

Dine is my second favorite moon aesthetically, but it is just horrible to play on. Even excluding the mediocre scrap the Giant and Bulter spam is just unbearable

sharp finch Jan 23, 2025, 6:49 AM

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then i dont think there would be a significant migration away from rend

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but there would be a significant uptick in people visiting dine as long as the increased rewards outweighed the increased risk

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and that would result in more people experiencing both moons on a regular basis

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rend is less demanding, dine is more rewarding, and ideally that means equal reasons to choose both

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that same sort of principle would be really easy to apply to all the moons and wouldn't require any significant redesigns or adding new content to the moons themselves

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so imo it's better than nothing that we get that

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although it's true that he could just do something completely different that requires a little more design

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and it would probably also work, if that was the direction he wanted to go instead

snow kite Jan 23, 2025, 6:52 AM

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We could like, just swap Rend and Dine’s scrap pool, that would probably solve a lot right there with minimal effort

#RebalancedMoons + Atlas