Lethal Level Loader [Custom Content Loading API]

[zenith flax]

it should

[vernal grove]

?

[crisp galleon]

I know it’s not your responsibility to worry about moons that’ve been abandoned by their devs, but I wonder if this could cause problems, granted only visually. I know it’s not a big deal, and probably if a moon’s been abandoned it has more, bigger issues than this.

When you say “nicer check”, do you mean the code is easier to do/nicer to read and understand or that you think the logic behind it is stronger? Because I’m just thinking, again with limited understanding, that the shader setup doesn’t in my mind inherently suggest an attempt at using vanilla water. It could be any water. However, the VowWater material name is very clearly an attempt to use a vanilla Lethal Company asset.

I definitely like the idea of easily being able to use vanilla water and am not trying to pester you to do it a certain way. I’m also still not sure of the best way ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[zenith flax]

i think the logic behind it is stronger

the shader setup does inherently suggest an attempt at using vanilla water because they are, since afaik that asset is the same one zeekerss uses, just configured differently

i agree with the material suggestion, just wanted a vibe check before making up my mind on it

[vernal grove]

i think the new lll update is causing desyuncs with my friend and i

[zenith flax]

i'd need log from both people

[vernal grove]

mine (host)

his log

[zenith flax]

@vernal grove what was desynced

[vernal grove]

moons on screen, interiors too

my friend would type in solace and it would turn into gloom for him

meanwhile i had solace on my screen

[zenith flax]

like on the one infront of the lever?

[vernal grove]

yes

[zenith flax]

what's this about interiors

[vernal grove]

he got normal facility when i got mansion, though he did mention that there was a single wall that was mansion on his end

also lethalnetworkapi may be a suspect

since it recently got an update

this had also occured when loadstone was installed but i dont have loadstone anymore so idk what is causing it now

he's also getting this weird error of the game saying "your save files may not be compatible with v55" for some unknown reason

[zenith flax]

remove centralconfig

[vernal grove]

if that's causing an issue than that would be so odd

[zenith flax]

its not odd at all

[vernal grove]

i mean, i get why but i have nothing crazy enabled

[zenith flax]

it's not your fault

[vernal grove]

if i remove central config that fucks up my entire pack balancing

[zenith flax]

I'm sorry to hear that

I probably won't be looking at logs including the mod in the future

[vernal grove]

unfortunate

hopefully it pulls a lethal quantities and just does stuff better

but i really dont understand lq and tbh i really dont feel like fucking around with all of my balancing in a completely new program

[vernal grove]

it is the one causing it unfoprtunately

[zenith flax]

Oh i know

I checked the code to confirm it

[vernal grove]

oh lmao

is there any way i can make it like, not do that?

[rapid nymph]

:D
I was worried it might have been a loadstone issue, but I didn't see it popping up in either of the logs

[vernal grove]

yeah im glad loadstone is ok!

[rapid nymph]

I was getting some reports of Desyncs in the previous version, but I identified the cause and the reports seem to have stopped, so I was worried that the issue wasn't actually fixed

[jolly cargo]

That’s terminal formatter

[iron igloo]

what were you using it for? i dont have this issue

[vernal grove]

very basic stuff

[vernal grove]

oh fr?

huh

it worked when I uninstalled central config so idk

also it started the quota on acidir for some unknown reason

[vernal grove]

enemy spawns, interior spawns,

moon hidden and unhidden stuff

also some scrap stuff in the future

I will look into this more when I wake up tomorrow to check and see if there is a setting in particular causing this

[iron igloo]

probably interior stuff

i do not configure CC for anything interior related

[unique geode]

It's not an issue with TerminalFormatter I can tell you that much, if Batby said it was CentralConfig then it was CentralConfig

[maiden valley]

just wondering, does interior generation differ from vanilla at all when LLL is installed?

assuming the user hasnt installed anything else/changed any settings

[young acorn]

nope

[maiden valley]

i know little context but you're so real for this

alrighty ty!

i dont really care either way was just curious

[jolly cargo]

It’s random

Got an offset issue with the store before

Haven’t personally seen it on moons

[vernal grove]

odd, I noticed that on toystore too

oh wait nvm I just woke up and read the message wrong

[acoustic sonnet]

Weirdly ln i started having desync when LQ was disabled

I had to test with it off

So when i turned it off

We started getting desync

[coarse flame]

Hi, what's the command to check the chance of an interior spawning for a moon in the terminal?

[tall kindle]

simulate moonName i think

[coarse flame]

Perfect, thank you

[mellow flame]

im an idiot, I kept building bundles, and adding it to the wrong modpack. and I was so confused as to why nothing was changing lmapo

[sullen coral]

GOD I FEEL THAT THOUGH

[crisp galleon]

I think I’ve said it before but yeah, several times I’ve bundled and then forgotten to put the bundle in the pack. Batby just needs to get good and make LLL able to read minds and yell at us for forgetting to save, rebuild the bundle, etc.

Or better yet, if it just knows, it can go ahead and do it automatically

[zenith flax]

you know you guys can just build to the modpack location

[sullen coral]

Yeah I could

I just don't

[crisp galleon]

That is true but doesn’t help when I forget to actually build the bundle. Also I feel like that’d make it more difficult to test in editor which I don’t do much anymore but will sometimes as a first try to make sure it loads

[mellow flame]

yea thats weird

building it in the modpack folder is just wrong

[tall kindle]

They don't have dlls etc, how would they do that?

Oh wait no I'm a dumbass

Forgot the assetbundle builder has a filepath

I'm too used to setting up the csproj.user for building into proper paths lol

[crisp galleon]

Oh I guess one reason I keep it within the Unity project is because I have it backed up so if my laptop commits “be no more” I can get the bundles back. Though actually as long as the project’s intact building the bundle isn’t hard.

I might move it, but I do like keeping the stuff together.

[brisk schooner]

if you weren't using smelly windows you could just symlink the bundle into the game directory so you're building in the editor and the game at the same time

I do that with all my mods instead of setting up a build output dir I just symlink them into the bepinex folder, haha

[mortal schooner]

you can symlink in windows too :p

I even symlinked a modpack into the regular lethal company steamapps folder so it would startup on steam launch

[brisk schooner]

yea but aren't windows symlinks both fake and not very good?

[mortal schooner]

you can do a soft link or hard link, it's pretty good imo but depending on what you do it is not going to be reliable in all cases

[zenith flax]

you know your cooking when you have 5 different vs projects open

[sullen coral]

Does 3 different Unity projects invoke similar levels of cooking

[zenith flax]

yes but mainly your gpu

[sullen coral]

This is true

[rough edge]

@zenith flax Will be you okay if I will PR to reduce GC allocations?

[zenith flax]

Yeah, possible I might tweak it for general maintance and readability depending on what your cooking but will def consider it

i figured my string sins would come back to get me eventually

[rough edge]

yeah

time to spanify LLL 😎

[zenith flax]

in my defense if it took you this long to eliminate my ass it can't be that badddd

[rough edge]

because I was mostly testing my modpack where I don't have a lot of moons and content for LLL

[zenith flax]

fair

[rough edge]

Looks like clamping rarity was not working in ConfigHelper.ConvertToStringWithRarityList

clamped value just ignored

and in other methods it also ignored

https://github.com/IAmBatby/LethalLevelLoader/pull/128

Also, you can use Vector2Int to remove RoundToInt calls. I didn't changed in PR because that method is public

[mellow flame]

In level matching properties is there a way to suprass the weight limit of 300?

[rough edge]

Progress report:
From ~13s to ~6s execution time
From 250MB to ~100MB GC allocations

[tall kindle]

is that the clamping for stuff like spawn weight etc for enemies and whatnot?

[rough edge]

yeah

[tall kindle]

might weirdly be on purpose, the editor doesnt allow the person to go above 300 (atleast with the slider) but batby was fine when i mentioned going above when i coded a config with LLL

but ig im curious to see what he says

[rough edge]

ye in unity editor there's limit in 300, but within LLL config you can set it to any values

because of clamping value is not working properly

[tall kindle]

im hoping that clamping stays broken

[zenith flax]

set inspector to debug mode

[rough edge]

rework later™️

[zenith flax]

is it really notable

[rough edge]

https://github.com/IAmBatby/LethalLevelLoader/pull/129
Still a lot can be optimized, but that's enough for now

[zenith flax]

@rough edge will peep when i can tyvm

i assume a bulk of the remaining 100mb is a lot of the finding of assets and stuff?

[unique geode]

That's a huge optimization pr let's gooo ^^

Looking forward to you merging this

[umbral oracle]

Are there any plans on making spawn curves editable

Edits of pre-existing moons doesn't change much when the spawn curve is the same

[zenith flax]

probably not

[umbral oracle]

sob

[sly girder]

😔

[zenith flax]

https://discord.com/channels/1168655651455639582/1267391780341551196

[tall kindle]

nice sneaky update

[zenith flax]

cbf talking about a tweak to a system people only know because it breaks sometimes 😭

[tall kindle]

[young acorn]

@zenith flax only bugs i can still find with the LLL bestiary is, the text previously in the terminal before typing it is still there sometimes, and that for some entries the text is just halfway through the top of the terminal without the ability to scroll

[zenith flax]

Heard chef

The previous issue with the keyword fixed now ya?

[young acorn]

yep

[sour spindle]

you know i came across a page about asset bundles on the unity blog

and i did just realize something

assets from asset bundles stay loaded forever

and you cant unload specific assets unless you dont need the whole bundle anymore

https://unity.com/blog/engine-platform/unity-asset-bundles-tips-pitfalls

i wonder how this would affect people wanting to use a lot of moons and interior mods

i wonder how this would affect that Jazztronauts 2 project...

theres also this which i never knew about

https://docs.unity3d.com/ScriptReference/AssetBundle-memoryBudgetKB.html

[sour spindle]

im gonna do a test on the facility dx stuff

do i need a dll to go along with the bundle?

[tall kindle]

Mhm, a helluva lot

[tall kindle]

Wut are they doing

Cuz if its stuff like multiple moons, enemies etc, u can probably do all that with less than 50mb

[sour spindle]

they PLAN on loading basically any existing moon or interior or whatnot

which means a lot of different mods content

[tall kindle]

Huh, like a modpack...?

[sour spindle]

nah

its complicated, based off of a gmod gamemode called jazztronauts

im not even sure its possible

[tall kindle]

Icic

[iron igloo]

Goonronauts

[soft eagle]

Hey, @zenith flax , found a little quirk with the current extended footstep surface implementation. I was using your tip about reducing assetbundle size by setting low quality settings for NavMesh (since it is being rebaked when the level starts anyway). Apparently (if I understand the code correctly) it only rebakes when at least one of the spawnable outside objects was placed. However, it order to use the new footstep feature, terrain must be untagged which prevents those random objects from being spawned, so it never gets rebaked.
Not a huge deal, but just letting you now.

[zenith flax]

my brain for some reason is struggling with processing this, could you shoot me some screenshots of the inspectors of the objects in question

[soft eagle]

This is what I meant

Every vanilla SpawanableOutsideObject is unable to be placed on Untagged terrain which is a requirement for the ExtendedFootstepSurface to function -> Mesh doesn't get rebaked

[zenith flax]

yup ok

forgot those use tags

i will get back to you on this when i can

[soft eagle]

yeah it's not a big deal, just wanted to tell so it wouldn't cause any other problems down the line

[coarse flame]

Hi, how you setup the spawnrate for the newest outside enemy of v56 with the LLL config?

[tall kindle]

I dont think you setup vanilla configs with LLL nor are there any enemy configs

[coarse flame]

This is what I mean

[tall kindle]

Ahh

It should be BushWolf

Add to nighttime , BushWolf:number

[coarse flame]

I'll try that but it's kinda weird that not even vanilla moons have it in their spawns, this is Vow for example

does it have anything to do with the fact that this creature works with the weed mechanic?

[tall kindle]

Oh yeah actually I dont think it's part of any of these spawn cycles

I think it has its own spawning cycle but it might be included in outside technically? I'm not sure here

[coarse flame]

Yeah I don't think there's any way to customize it with LLL

It seems very special

[tall kindle]

There's a mod called kidnapper fox settings

Try that

It's by Zehs

[coarse flame]

Can you configure it for each moons?

[tall kindle]

I think so?

[coarse flame]

Tried it and took a look at the config file but it doesn't do that sadly

[tall kindle]

F

If u can increase vine shroud spawns it should help

[coarse flame]

Any idea of what names the vine shrouds have in the LLL config?

[tall kindle]

No idea, dunno if it's supported in LLL config either

Doubt it tbh

[coarse flame]

I'll stop bothering you but thank you for your help

[tall kindle]

My phone was crashing trying to copypaste but seems like an important error @zenith flax, no scrap generated in the interior and this is the error directly after the scene started loading

Full log

[digital breach]

hey @zenith flax, low priority but I've got an issue to report. There's a feature in my terminal mod that allows for changing the terminal font & font size that is failing to update (Terminal instance).screenText.textComponent.fontSize with LLL present. I'm assuming it's because LLL caches the default font size at StartOfRound Awake and is setting the font size to this whenever RefreshMoonsCataloguePage is called. Is there any way I can build soft compatibility to LLL to either A) Update the cached font size to the user's configured size from my mod or B) subscribe to an event where RefreshMoonsCataloguePage is called to update the font size to the user's configured size from my mod after?

I'm also going to post this on your github just in-case this gets missed. It's not a huge deal but I would like to resolve it in some way so the customization feature works regardless of vanilla or LLL

[tall kindle]

If that value is cached and used, why not set that value whenever the user sets a value on ur end?

[digital breach]

I can try that, but it's not publicly accessible at the moment

And I don't want to access stuff in LLL without permission

internal static float defaultTerminalFontSize;

but that is basically the idea I had with my proposed option A, if batby is okay with making this float public

okay rather than make an issue I made a PR to request the cached defaultTerminalFontSize be publicized so other mods can access/modify it. Again not super urgent but would appreciate a look https://github.com/IAmBatby/LethalLevelLoader/pull/131

[chrome notch]

review process may take 4-6 business days

[digital breach]

understandable, it's a huge project to maintain

[sullen coral]

Are the Free and Paid tags not automatically assigned to moons, and if not, is there a reason for that?

[steady ingot]

No they are not

[tall kindle]

cuz mods can fw that probably

[sour spindle]

does LLL support custom logic for rarity? thatd be cool....

u know like a function you can set that takes in the selectable level and returns a rarity number. so u can mess with the values it depends on yourself. and it runs before it chooses the dungeon

hell that would make it possible for the rarity of the interior or item or somethig could depend on like

how much equipment the players have on the ship. and stuff like that

[zenith flax]

@sour spindle yes

kinda

[tall kindle]

good morning?

[quiet stream]

late by 2 hours smh

[zenith flax]

I’m available for today if update drops 🙂

[digital breach]

any thoughts on my lil PR? 🥺

[idle ravine]

I think zeeks said another week

[zenith flax]

where

iirc this is the end of that week

oh found it

yikes

[digital breach]

ye - https://x.com/ZeekerssRBLX/status/1819072869823127719

Zeekerss (@ZeekerssRBLX) on X

Ok I might need another week

Twitter · Aug 1, 2024, 6:09 PM

[zenith flax]

v60 dropping on my birthday might not be great news for anyone wanting to play modded asap lol

[crisp galleon]

It dropping is your birthday present 🙃

(Also happy early birthday)

[digital breach]

better mute the server before your bday lol

[zenith flax]

https://tenor.com/view/doiicate-gif-23594893

[umbral oracle]

Does LLL support bee hives spawning (Without the bees themselves) inside the facility? If so, what's the LLL-given name to the hive?

[zenith flax]

uhh

how are you trying to do it

and in #dev-interiors

[umbral oracle]

Wdym

I'm not developing any interior

I'm using LLL's config to spawn them inside on Offense

[tired solar]

How is this done? I'm curious

[tired solar]

Btw @zenith flax I noticed some new issues with csproj build stuff so I made a PR to fix them: https://github.com/IAmBatby/LethalLevelLoader/pull/134

[umbral oracle]

Getting unusual interior desync, and I don't know what mod's causing it

[steady ingot]

Are you using any new interiors?

Tolians interior had an issue with desyncs before, tho i think those are fixed 🤔

[umbral oracle]

Happened with the Manor, so it isn't with new interiors

[zenith flax]

what kinda mods

[steady ingot]

Yeah tolians tomb made vanilla interior desync before

[umbral oracle]

What I have installed are: Scoopy's Variety Mod, LC Office, OneShot moons, and OneShot interiors

[zenith flax]

any config esque mods?

[umbral oracle]

I enabled CentralConfig's dungeon stuff, but then quickly disabled it afterwards, which these issues began manifesting

[zenith flax]

oh yeah

[umbral oracle]

These issues shouldn't have manifested because I disabled the dungeon options

[zenith flax]

with no disrespect to you i wont be checking reports w/ central config

[umbral oracle]

Fair

[sullen coral]

Yeah, CentralConfig is known to break stuff and I at least recommend to use LethalQuantities or LethalCompanyVariables instead, and for stuff that LLL can touch I recommend just modifying LLL's config directly as it's the best way to keep things synced

[zenith flax]

I genuinely am not far off marking it as an incompatability tbh

it's just difficult because of the inherint power dynamic of being it's dependent

[umbral oracle]

It... only started this today

There was no desync yesterday and beyond

I reset my CentralConfig's config too, but there still was desync

I wonder if it's the config of the OneShot interiors themselves

[umbral oracle]

Doesn't marking it as an incompatibility forces LLL to not load?

[unique geode]

I've not had any desyncs and I have the Oneshot Interiors

So doubtful

[umbral oracle]

Well, I enabled Content Configuration and Dynamic Dungeon Size restriction on them

So it might be something there

[unique geode]

That still wouldn't cause desyncs

You have another mod causing it

It's not the interiors

[zenith flax]

is there desync without central config

[unique geode]

I know Diversity caused interior desyncs for my group before

Cus it's not been recompiled

[umbral oracle]

No, but there was no desync yesterday

So I have no idea what the fuck happened

[zenith flax]

test without it

[umbral oracle]

Alright

[unique geode]

Oh you're using CentralConfig

yeah that's known to cause desyncs

[umbral oracle]

Sigh

[unique geode]

Use Lethal Quantities or LethalCompanyVariables as Nikki suggested

[umbral oracle]

It shouldn't even do that because all I'm doing is changing the moon's entry and ranking

[unique geode]

Always configure interiors through LLL

[umbral oracle]

Do those allow

[umbral oracle]

this?

[unique geode]

You don't need to touch that stuff with moons anyways

That is for moon devs to configure

[umbral oracle]

...I want to.

[unique geode]

It's better to play moons the way that devs intend you to

[umbral oracle]

That is the sole reason I got it because of to apply the moons into my modpack's headcanon.

[unique geode]

Less issues

[umbral oracle]

😕

If there's certain aspects of a mod that I don't like, the mod shouldn't annihilate itself upon configuration

[zenith flax]

correct

[umbral oracle]

That's kind of the point of modding

[zenith flax]

central config is poorly made

[unique geode]

This

And the sad thing is it all boils down to Lass never heeding your warnings

[umbral oracle]

Since CentralConfig is busted, could LLL one day have the option to change moon difficulty ranking and entries

[zenith flax]

No

sorry

[umbral oracle]

RIP

[unique geode]

Like I said stuff like that is for the moon devs to configure not the user

If you dislike something about a moon mod you should give feedback

[umbral oracle]

Kind of defeats the point of modding, but oh well

[unique geode]

Central Config allows users to change things it shouldn't which ends up causing things to explode and break

[unique geode]

It doesn't.

There's some things that the end user just isn't supposed to mess with

[zenith flax]

wanna state Lunxara is speaking for themselves here, i don't neccasarily agree with the same reasoning even though we share a conclusion

[unique geode]

Yeah I wasn't speaking for you at all here

lol

[tired solar]

I personally dislike having config options mostly, but I think configuring anything you want when modding is completely reasonable

[unique geode]

I can agree with this, I think a mod could probably be made to allow touching some of this stuff without it being so invasive that it causes things to explode

The way Central Config handles things just isn't it though

[umbral oracle]

I wouldn't think changing the difficulty ranking and moon entry would cause the moon to combust

[zenith flax]

no just the mod in general will tend to do that

[tired solar]

Yeah, Central Config wasn't made with compatiblity in mind. It also has multiple Harmony prefix return falses, which is a sure way to break compatiblity

[unique geode]

If a mod is coded well then no it won't, Central Config is just messy

I can't remember if Lethal Quantities might let you change that it might

[zenith flax]

central config is the equivalent to being young and not knowing a stove is hot so you grip the pan with your whole hand

[unique geode]

and LQ is much more reliable

[umbral oracle]

Also saying I shouldn't configure a mod to my liking is like I shouldn't config a game to my liking
What is the point of playing it if I don't like way things are going

[sly girder]

LQ does let you change that

[zenith flax]

There wouldn't be

[unique geode]

There you go, LQ will allow you to change what you want

[umbral oracle]

Real?

[unique geode]

Without bricking things

[sly girder]

yes

[umbral oracle]

I'm sorry CentralConfig, but I'm leaving you out on the New York streets to rot

[sly girder]

😔

[rough edge]

Can I create store furniture via LLL?

[tall kindle]

nein

[rough edge]

ok then LL can do?

[tall kindle]

si

[rough edge]

k

[tall kindle]

this is all LLL can do (and vehicles i think)

[rough edge]

just wanted to create a birthday cake for my friend 🙂

[tall kindle]

aw cute, yeah just look for unlockables on LL

@thick patrol had some troubles with the unlockables index, so if you accidently make a suit it's because theres an index thats incorrect

i think this is the index

[thick patrol]

Yes that’s it

Try it with both 1 and -1

I forgot which is the right one

[rich aurora]

LethalQuantities lets you directly set a moon's difficulty rating and description

You can even shy away from the conventional letter grades if you really wanted to for difficulty and assign something ridiculous like "Exotic Butters" for the FNAF map if you really wanted to
(Be warned about doing something like that if you play with mods that have some correlation with the difficulty grades)

As for changing the moon's entry, what do you mean by this? Do you mean by setting the price to route to it? (which can be done via LQ & LLL) or do you mean by you can assign your own unique way to "unlock" a moon you assign as locked?

As an example for vanilla maps, let's say instead of discovering the name of Artifice thru Adamance, you're now forced to pick up the story log(s) from Rend, Dine, and Titan respectively

Unique way to allow someone to set up their own conditions to "unlock" moons sounds cool in theory but my golly that feels like it'd be a nightmare to make sure it works reliably especially if it starts to cross between different map makers' stuff

[lusty widget]

is there a way to use lethal level loader to allow modded interiors on modded moons? i hope this isnt a dumb question

[sour spindle]

yeah thats what the tag matching stuff is for

you can also mention the moons by name

[lusty widget]

does the rarity matter? like if i put moon:30 for over 10 interiors does it override? since the odds go from 0-300

[chrome notch]

that's not how the rarity works

10 interiors at 30 weight is an equal chance for all

[maiden valley]

LLL fixes manor not working on march right? If I manually add march to the manor moon pool, will it work okay?

[umbral oracle]

Yes

[maiden valley]

cool, thx

[umbral oracle]

I have the Manor on March

[umbral oracle]

Welcome

[maiden valley]

batby ur so cool 4 that

[umbral oracle]

Real

[maiden valley]

I guess I have a reason to include LLL in my pack now lol

[crisp galleon]

In the event of a conflict (like a moon called X has the Y tag and the interior is configured for X:10 and Y:20) the higher value is used (in this case 20).

I don’t know that the odds are exactly capped. I’m under the impression that if a moon has interior A at 20, B at 10, and C at 10, A has a 20/40 chance. Each is its weight out of the total weight. Maybe I’m wrong about how it works though.

[lusty widget]

i figured it out and now everything works perfectly

[zenith flax]

theres a bug report in zeekerss cord about what i do to fix that

[tame parrot]

Hello hello, finally able to return to some modding and updating ze mods
Only thing holding the update back currently is the Shovel Scraps
can Wind them Up for a strike, but it will hold there forever and you cannot change item or drop the item at all.
Wondering what I am missing
Here is the setup for the Item Asset and the Prefab that I have

.... I fixed it somehow. I think it was the missing sounds

[iron igloo]

I use CentralConfig for enemy overrides as it is THE ONLY viable option atm and it works fine. But yes bottom line use LLL cfg for as much as you can

LQ cannot control enemy rarity effectively rn

There’s a couple other things that don’t work as intended in the Global section either but I can’t remember rn

Just chiming in bc laying it out as “That mod is broken and sucks, use this better working alternative” is oversimplifying it

It’s the only alternative for half the shit currently til bananapuncher updates LethalQuantities

I’ve never had issues with CentralConfig as of my last configuration I’ve stuck with, but I don’t do ANYTHING involving interior / dungen with it

[zenith flax]

ive seen issues with CC and after additionally reviewing the codebase I would suggest not using it

[umbral oracle]

I don't use CC for anything else aside from modifying the moon's databank entry, so I should be good

Everything else is for LLL

[iron igloo]

I get it but as someone who scrubs message history in this server for reference of possible issues I just wanted to add my 2 cents bc someone would be wasting their time trying to rely on LQ completely

[zenith flax]

this isn't neccasarily true but if things are working for you that is good to hear

[umbral oracle]

They are thankfully

[kindred herald]

General Settings - Is Level Registered In Terminal = true
For some reason I was thinking this is ExtendedLevel.IsLocked. Apparently it's not. Is this settings reflected in another field?

[tame parrot]

Hello, made a new Moon. Testing it I am getting this error
Can't quite see what is up with the ItemDropship in the moon to do with this. Any ideas?

[crisp galleon]

Is it the new dropship from version 56 with the cruiser? If your project was patched prior to that Lethal Company version being released then that dropship no longer works.

Oh, I see you got it in a different channel.

[tame parrot]

All good, the info also helps

[neat ember]

Am I correct in understanding that

 if (stringWithRarity.Name.Sanitized().Contains(comparingString.Sanitized()) || comparingString.Sanitized().Contains(stringWithRarity.Name.Sanitized()))

means that when configuring probabilities of dungeons per moon in the 'Dungeon Injection Settings - Manual Level Names List' part of the LLL config that it will see it as a 'match' if either

1. the moon name is a substring of a key in the dungeons
2. the key name is a substring of the moon
   ?

[umbral oracle]

Weird-ass anomaly on Manor Refuge

[zenith flax]

not a me issue

[umbral oracle]

? What

[tall kindle]

it's not caused by LLL he means

[umbral oracle]

LLL makes the Manor compatible with more than one fire exit, so I don't get that

This was the only instance I've ever encountered this anyway

[zenith flax]

im aware but as someone who has an understanding on what the game does and what i do

This not a me

[digital breach]

that's a vanilla issue right?

[normal peak]

yeah pretty sure thats just a visual issue that rarley happens even in vanilla

[crisp galleon]

I know it's been mentioned that moon devs can create empty item objects (and similar) that, as long as they are named the same way vanilla ones are, will be swapped for the vanilla ones on loading. My question is, is there a way to somewhat hybridize this? For testing, I wanted to create a custom outside spawnable map object that references a vanilla prefab, but unless I did something wrong the thing spawned but was my empty copy of the prefab (or, well, it was a cube just for visualization reasons). I'm guessing it's because it checks the object names and since there's no vanilla one even though the prefab was named the same as a vanilla one, the overriding function didn't occur.

[umbral oracle]

Is LLL compatible with vanilla clients?

[tall kindle]

considering how much it changes, i wanna say no

[umbral oracle]

[sour spindle]

what feature of LLL would even be useful in vanilla

[umbral oracle]

Balance of vanilla moons

LC in terms of progression, scrap, and entity variety is flawed as fuck, so I use LLL to adjust it to my liking

I had a vanilla $700 Titan.

[sour spindle]

i see

[umbral oracle]

For reference, this is Vow's average on Titan.

[chrome notch]

you won't find a vanilla compatible mod that will let you alter that stuff because it's not possible

[umbral oracle]

Things like FairAI and FairGiants alters the AI of hazards and forest keepers, but still works with vanilla clients, so I expected the same thing here since I don't think it adds or removes any content

That's just the tip of the iceberg of my game changing host-only mods anyway

[chrome notch]

you can get away with host-only for some things, but anything related to generation or randomness won't work as the game relies on seeds that it is expecting to generate the same way every time across different clients

[sullen coral]

Is there anything that is known to not be working properly in LLL's config currently?

[merry marsh]

Are the size settings for interiors working? They weren't working for the last couple of versions

[zenith flax]

Just a kinda vibe check, been busy last weekish so not too much time to work on stuff. Will have to update for v60 anyway so will implement a lot of prs and suggestions then

[zenith flax]

Very no

[sullen coral]

Not sure tbh

[sly girder]

😭

[steady ingot]

Foggy weather variables are not functioning, they don't change anything, been testing this for quite while now - foggy weather just happens

[tall kindle]

do you know what the variables do?

[steady ingot]

Yeah no i just yap about nothing(?) yeah i do thats why im reporting the issue

[tall kindle]

nice sarcasm

[steady ingot]

The fogs density changes randomly - changing the variables does nothing

[tall kindle]

so can you let me know what the variables do for foggy?

[steady ingot]

It should change the density of the fog but it does jack shit

I tried multiple way to change the variables- 0-0, 0-1, -1-0, 99-99, 999-999, i think im currently using 969-999 all look the same (aside from the fog density changing randomly but its not related to my variables)

[tall kindle]

from looking at the code, the max for weathervariable1 is 4

so no real point from u testing 999

though im not seeing any clamping in weather variable 2, which also controls it, so 4,999, should give something like 500 as a random

anyway, minimum is 0.05 and max is 4 for weather variable 1 (for foggy) from what i can tell

[steady ingot]

I’ll look into it when im back at my pc thanks Xu ♥️

[tall kindle]

:/ yw

[sour spindle]

what do i do if i wanna access my assetbundle thru the code

i copied my old code for doing that cuz im used to it but it actually broke the game cause of loading the bundle twice

if im using LLL do i need to access my asset bundle another way

[tall kindle]

I usually look at how example enemy does it tbh

Though for CR I do soke weird stuff

Some*

https://github.com/Hamunii/LC-ExampleEnemy/blob/main/Plugin/src/Plugin.cs#L31

[sour spindle]

well no thats the thing

tahts just the default way of loading an asset bundle

the problem is LLL already loads the asset bundle

if you tell it to do it twice it gets real upset

and the game doesnt even start

[tall kindle]

Lol ic

[tired solar]

I'm no expert on LLL, but you can remove the .lethalbundle extension from the name and LLL will not load it.
And to register your ExtendedMod, use
public static void RegisterExtendedMod(ExtendedMod extendedMod) from PatchedContent

[sour spindle]

i mean is that really the best method

i could just ask LLL for a reference to my bundle couldnt i

i mean if it has that feature

i know it has a list of all AssetBundle instances but its private

[tired solar]

I dunno, but from what it seems from the source code, the automatic asset bundle loading basically does the following:

1. Loads the bundles async
2. From a bundle, loads every ExtendedMod asset and feeds them to RegisterExtendedMod to register the bundle's contents if ExtendedMods exist in the asset bundle, or as a fallback, it loads every ExtendedContent in the bundle
3. success
   Ofc there's a bit more internal stuff happening, but basically this manual method is almost the same

[tall kindle]

If you patch into the method that loads bundles, could you grab the bundle during that time and do whatever u need to do?

[rough edge]

check the dungeon plus code

https://git.touhou.dev/Raphtalia/DungeonGenerationPlus_LethalCompany_Mod/src/branch/main/DunGenPlus/DunGenPlus/Assets.cs

[sour spindle]

well i could do that if i wanted to anyway

i was just talking about it here in case batby had an actual way they wanted it done

[tall kindle]

Oh yeah, LLL has a listener for on loading bundle

Duh

Forgot about that

[tired solar]

oh, true

[sour spindle]

i guess i could just find hte one with my bundles' name on it

[tall kindle]

Listener allows u to check for a specific bundle

Lemme find my code rq

AssetBundleLoader.AddOnExtendedModLoadedListener(OnExtendedModRegistered, "XuXiaolan", "ImmersiveScraps");
        AssetBundleLoader.AddOnLethalBundleLoadedListener(OnLethalBundleLoaded, "immersivescrapassets.lethalbundle");

[sour spindle]

whats those do

[tall kindle]

Listeners that do exactly as their name suggest

https://github.com/XuuXiao/ImmersiveScrap/blob/main/Plugin/src/Plugin.cs

Ignore the horrible horrible code

I was just really really lazy that day

[sour spindle]

well yeah i know about listeners and stuff

i just mean like does it store it in a variable or what

i guess lemme go see

oh you dont do anything with the asset bundle lol

or wait

are the other properties you're putting into the listener like a filter or something

i didnt think it would just come with a filter

interesting

my mistake i didnt put it together

[tall kindle]

Ye allg

[tired solar]

It's stored in the balls

[iron igloo]

Oh really? I haven’t checked

[iron igloo]

I know the enemy and scrap stuff isn’t implemented ?

[sullen coral]

Wdym?

[iron igloo]

Like it shows enemy config options in LLL but they don’t actually do anything

[sullen coral]

Gotcha

[sour spindle]

@zenith flax i tried experimenting and doing my silly material shader patch on other objects and it didnt seem to work

so like, you know how i did it like this

this works

i tried replicating it like

but it didnt seem to work

the mods i decided to download to test were LCOffice and Ganimedes

they have custom scrap and custom enemy

[zenith flax]

Not via LLL

[sour spindle]

ohhhh

they didnt add it through LLL

probably LethalLib right

[zenith flax]

ye

[sour spindle]

do you know any mods that actually use ExtendedItem and ExtendedEnemyType

[zenith flax]

StartOfRound.Awake.allItemsList

run up that

[sour spindle]

i mean it would work but i wanna come up with code that patches just the custom stuff

[steady ingot]

Xu’s mods are registered with LLL iirc

[sour spindle]

is ganimedes not v56 comaptible

isnt this a v56 issue

i guess i shoulda used a more recent moon for the test

[steady ingot]

Yeah for Ganimedes you need CompanyCruiserFix

[sour spindle]

the ganimedes test did give me all i needed though

it does refresh all materials

[steady ingot]

You can test on mine ig, tho my ExtendedEnemyType is just a halfimplemented enemy since i dont have a code for my Oni, just using the masked’s code - but i do have some ExtendedItems there ^^

[sour spindle]

though for scenes i have to do it like this

cant do it preeptively like with the prefabs

[zenith flax]

Yuuup

[sour spindle]

does LLL know if something is lethallib or not

[zenith flax]

Not yet

[sour spindle]

is there a way to ask lethallib for ITS list of stuff?

guess i should ook

[zenith flax]

Ye wrong person aha

[sour spindle]

ok so enemies is SpawnableEnemy and theres a public list

[sour spindle]

batbyyyyyy good newssss

confirmed working method with lethallib

once we perfect the method its probably gonna be added to lethallib right?

though i should probably submit the lethallib part of this to lethallib

though it depends is Evaisa still even doing lethallib

i assume so cause it still works on v56

[zenith flax]

I can push updates to LL but @tired solar been more ontop of it

love to hear it though

[sour spindle]

when you need to acess the hierarchy of something i assume people tend to just use the transform

i realized i could put a lot of what im doing into a function

so then the actual processing part comes out more like this

etc.

[tired solar]

Yeah if there's some LL stuff I can take a look at it

[umbral oracle]

Is there a place where I can find the tags of each moon?

[tall kindle]

isnt this forcing a shader on items etc?

[tall kindle]

you'd have to check with the moon creator probably, i saw CC display em at some point but idk

[umbral oracle]

Oh, I thought vanilla moons had tags applied to them

[tall kindle]

oh they do too, pins in this channel

[umbral oracle]

Oh, good to know

[zenith flax]

It’s forcing them to use the runtime shader instead of the assetrip of it

Which turns out can have a noticeable difference

[tall kindle]

does it look for specifically hdrp/lit to replace?

[zenith flax]

it looks for the runtime version of whatever it’s currently using

It should be safe to rollout for everything

[tall kindle]

hmm, so if im using a custom shader, it wont just blow up at me?

[zenith flax]

If it’s good code it will be fine ye

[sour spindle]

as long as you didnt decide to name it HDRP/Lit

i dunno anybody who would decide hmmm today im gonna edit the built in shader for my mod

i guess the main issue is if like

someone downloads a custom shader and then edits it

without renaming it

one edit might supercede the other

but to that i say

this is a flaw with you and not I

maybe add a disclaimer on the LLL wiki to make sure to rename a shader if youve edited it

seems like thatd be enough

[tall kindle]

opt out instead of opt in feels a little weird tbh but idk

i wouldnt usually think to rename my custom shaders to accomodate your scripts if you know what i mean

[zenith flax]

if your editing default shaders its your problem

idc

[tall kindle]

define default shaders

[zenith flax]

if your making a new shader, make a new shader

if your not doing that

idc

[tall kindle]

that doesn't really answer my question lol, like again, if im downloading a custom shader and edit it, my first thought wouldnt be to rename it

but thats why im asking what u mean by default shader

[zenith flax]

your misunderstanding

if you make a new project

theres default shaders

if your downloading a custom shader, thats not default

[tall kindle]

ah those, honestly didnt even know u could edit those

[sour spindle]

you can copy and paste em yeah

though the situation i was talking about was like

downloading a custom shader

and then editing it

and then not renaming it after that

then if someone else uses that shader it might conflict

[tall kindle]

how so?

also @zenith flax i saw this and was wondering about something weather related

a big limitation in custom weathers is that mooners cant select custom weathers themselves, which is a bit of a problem, but what if the weather selection was like a sort of string and with enumutils injecting into the vanilla enum list for the weathers you could try and match that or something like that?

[zenith flax]

i wouldn't have that in LLL right now anything

because lll custom weathers would work like other stuff where they go into moons

[tall kindle]

but like, we have weather registry, are u still gonna try to make lll extendedweathers?

[plush wing]

I don't see why not.

People have different ideas.

[zenith flax]

whats this in response to

[plush wing]

Xu.

[zenith flax]

probably not anytime soon

my idea would be pretty destructive

[tall kindle]

it's also kind of for the better that it makes things less central, like it'd be better if there was a sort of soft compat rather than a new extendedthing

[zenith flax]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

any weather implementation i do wont be using enums

[sour spindle]

weathers in LC are one of the less dynamically coded aspects of the game, arent they

[zenith flax]

yes

[sour spindle]

these problems are just consequences of that

[zenith flax]

yes

[sour spindle]

the only thing you can do with weathers is store which weather it is, all the other aspects of it are kinda strewn about the games various classes

thats what i noticed when going over all the custom content lists

i cant hope to find anything like a "weather prefab" to fix the materials of

oh yeah that reminds me actually

one last piece of the rendererfix

maybe have a new scriptable people can include in their projects

where they can manually have prefabs fixed if theyre placed in it

and added to the bundle

[zenith flax]

why

[sour spindle]

in case somebody needs something fixed but it's like, spawned through code or something

actually hm in that case

it would be better to just expose the fixer function

[zenith flax]

huh

[sour spindle]

since they would also have to load the asset too

[zenith flax]

im just going to run it on all the assets in every bundle i find?

[sour spindle]

im not sure if thats possible, the only reason it works with LLL custom content is that when the game spawns the tile or enemy or item it uses the version of it stored in the enemytype or dungeonflow tilesets, etc.

[zenith flax]

and they use materials

[tall kindle]

whatas the secondary prefab?

[zenith flax]

dunno

[sour spindle]

the materials exist as a class instance in those objects

[zenith flax]

the materials exist as a asset in those assets

which become instances when spawned

[sour spindle]

well no i mean an instance of the Material class

[zenith flax]

yes im correcting that

materials are asset/instance based just like prefabs

[sour spindle]

when you say asset do you mean before its loaded from the bundle

[zenith flax]

no

[sour spindle]

because when you load it from the bundle it becomes an instance, in the c# sense

[zenith flax]

that is not relevant information

[sour spindle]

it is to me, though i guess i just dont know what you're planning

what would the code look like?

[zenith flax]

load assetbundle
find all materials in assetbundle
fix em'

[sour spindle]

interesting I'll look into that

actually. would it be all that complicated to set up my own local version of LLL to build. or can i just download the source from github and modify it

id have to write this code in a very specific spot

[tall kindle]

i remember u wanted a comparison between default shaders and lc shaders (hdrp/lit ofc)

[sour spindle]

wait its a problem for more than just lightmapping?

thats crazy

didnt actually notice

what mod is this btw i wanna see if the fix thing works on it

[tall kindle]

im still not really convinced i'd call it a problem since using nomnom's patcher it gives the proper settings and fixes it but up to you

[tall kindle]

this is an old screenshot, fixed using nomnom's patcher

[sour spindle]

ohhhhh

fair

i guess the issues would be more subtle then

like just lightmapping stuff

anyway yeah sorry for the confusion batby maybe theres just something about assetbundles id missed ill test out that method

i do think youd still have to do it before all the extendedmods and etc. are loaded from the bundle

since theyd be taking copies of that data

[zenith flax]

aslong as the bundle is loaded it doesnt matter

[zenith flax]

mhm actually

migbt be valid concern

not 100% sure

[sour spindle]

actually thats the question that confused me

i thought when you grabbed an asset from the assetbundle, it was turning the asset data into like, c# class instance

but if you load the whole bundle

it might just have all the c# stuff just sitting in it

[zenith flax]

you cant grab something from a bundle without loading it all

[sour spindle]

i thought it was that you can't unload a bundle without unloading the whole thing

[zenith flax]

both

[sour spindle]

and that you could do that

ill have to look into it

[tired solar]

About the shader changing stuff, does it change every material using HDRP/Lit to use some other shader from the game? If so, I'd like to see how it affects how modded stuff like enemies and items look with it

[sour spindle]

loading the bundle file seems to be a different process than loading an asset from the bundle

[zenith flax]

thats the pitch yeah

[zenith flax]

you load assets from loaded bundles

imagine unzipping a zip

[sour spindle]

its not some other shader, its just the HDRP/Lit the game uses, instead of the one the asset bundle packaged

which i assume the errors are due to differences in those two

[tall kindle]

what concerns me is that devs have created their enemies materials etc in mind with those differences

[sour spindle]

though its not just the lit shader, it matches every shader with identical names

oh no not materials

[zenith flax]

i don't mind

[sour spindle]

matetial settings arent touched

just shaders

[tall kindle]

the items and enemies will look insanely different, it's not about the material settings

[zenith flax]

this is a reasonable change at worst

[tired solar]

The thing is, that modded item and enemy has been made with HDRP/Lit they used in mind, so alterning the shader will kinda fuck up those modders' visions of what the thing should look like

[tall kindle]

this is a destructive change at worst

[sour spindle]

well the problem is they were never supposed to look like that to begin with

[zenith flax]

yes

im down for it being destructive

[tall kindle]

they were still made to look like that is the thing

[zenith flax]

they were made wrong

[tall kindle]

it's better to supply the right shader like how nomnom did it in his patcher

you cant decide for a dev how their stuff should look like

[sour spindle]

i mean thankfully nomnom took care of all the big stuff

[zenith flax]

I can

the question is should i

in this case i think its worth it

[tall kindle]

no one's questioning the literal ability

[sour spindle]

i dont know if theres any issues with tue shaders other than lightmapping

which wont change how the model looks all that much

[zenith flax]

im not leaving in a fixable problem just because people are accustomed to the problem

[tall kindle]

it changes a lot when u look at the screenshot i sent a bit back

i dont know if i would call this a "problem"

[sour spindle]

well no thats nomnom's patch

it affects colors

[zenith flax]

people are using the wrong shaders

[sour spindle]

this doesnt affect colors

[zenith flax]

with noticable differences

[tall kindle]

the screenshot i sent has vanilla lc shader on the left, and default unity shader on the right

[tired solar]

Okay so question, if Example Enemy used a shader named "exampleenemytoilet" for example, which uses HDRP/Lit, probably Unity's default version of it I'd assume, the HDRP/Lit for this would be changed, right? And the material would look different

[sour spindle]

yeah and nomnoms patch makes them mote consistent rigjt

[tall kindle]

yes

[sour spindle]

it depends, if you used nomnom's patch

[tall kindle]

99% of enemies will not have used nomnom's patch

[sour spindle]

the one in unity would look like it would in LC for the most part

[zenith flax]

tough shit 👍

[sour spindle]

example i could test?

[tall kindle]

pretty sure giant speicmens doesnt use nomnom's patch

[tired solar]

so it would change it, and change how I intended my toilet material to look like, after tuning it so I'm happy with it. If a mod comes and says that this is wrong and "fixes" my material for me, I wouldn't be a fan of it

[sour spindle]

ill check it out then

[zenith flax]

your material is wrong

its using the wrong shader

im sorry your not a fan of it

i understand where your coming from

im not going to pretend its not a problem

[tall kindle]

there is no wrong when creating a design though, it's just a preference you're forcing

[zenith flax]

its using a flawed copy of something it would otherwise want to use the real version of

its wrong

[tall kindle]

without an opt in system, you dont know that though

[sour spindle]

actually i have a tangent to something thats more objective. is there a performance impact to having a dozen HDRP/Lit shaders going around instead of just 1

[tired solar]

yes, the shader is wrong, but if it was made with the wrong shader in mind to look as the modder intended, "fixing" it will make it also wrong

[zenith flax]

oh actually

there totally might be

[zenith flax]

just off this im probably going to lock in my descision if its true

this could totally break batches

[sour spindle]

IIRC nomnom's patches, like

[tired solar]

I would assume yes

[sour spindle]

change your unity project settings for HDRP right

[tall kindle]

before any assumptions, you'd benefit from profiling

[sour spindle]

so they match what zeekerss was using?

[tall kindle]

@rough edge might actually know the answer to this one

[tall kindle]

yes

but a lot of stuff doesnt use nomnom's patch

[sour spindle]

how would i profile btw

[tall kindle]

uhh theres a profiler thing in #1175883003474485369

[zenith flax]

we are curious if assetrip copies of default unity shaders are breaking material batches by have difs

[sour spindle]

there is an alternative

remember how i made this discovery

[tall kindle]

the alternative is having an opt-in imo, but whats ur idea?

[sour spindle]

i selected the meshrenderer in unity explorer and it refreshed the shader somehow

im not sure it coulda somehow automatically ran the Shader.Find process or something

but maybe it did something else, who knows

also i think opt in may be a good idea, however, comprimise

allow forcing it to run on all mods or certain mod's assets anyways

on the user side thru configuration

[tall kindle]

that is a weird compromise what

[zenith flax]

no

[sour spindle]

though i do also think batby could be right too

i mean people have had to update their mods for other reasons

[tall kindle]

giving users control on what dev content looks like without the dev's approval is even worse lol

[tired solar]

Anyways, so a shader being "wrong" isn't something gamebreaking, it's just a visual change. And if the visual change by changing the shader is truly like in the image I'm replying to, it looks like it's changing wayyy too much.

In the end, what does this achieve? Will users benefit from this? I don't think so. It just changes how things will look, and modders will be confused as to why their stuff looks different with some mod installed.

[tall kindle]

update their mods? this isnt just an update, they'd need to lose their original design entirely

[zenith flax]

no this is just an update

[tall kindle]

finish one conversation where users want to change my content drastically to another conversation where the api wants to forcefully change my content drastically breh

[zenith flax]

lll's goal is to allow the implementation of custom content in a way that can get it as close to vanilla as possibe

[sour spindle]

i mean i do understand, if people adjusted their colors to account for this difference

[zenith flax]

this is in line with my goals

[sour spindle]

they would have to figure out which color looks right again

[tired solar]

Creating new problems, fun

[tall kindle]

and how exactly are people gonna adjust? and it's a bigger change than just "change the colours", stuff might need to be remade from scratch, and how are devs gonna even be able to change in according to this? this is a runtime change.

[zenith flax]

if they have the right shaders in the project the runtime changes shouldn't matter

[tall kindle]

whats the point of runtime changes if the assumption is that they have the right shaders

[sour spindle]

the same way you would if you didn't use nomnom's patch and then you switched to using it

[zenith flax]

because LLL doesn't neccasarily rely on that

[tall kindle]

a lot of people don't use nomnom's patcher, because it comes with everything in the game and not everyone's pc etc can handle that.
example enemy uses stubbed scripts and most enemy mods come from example enemy, you can't be expecting most people to switch to another option AND lose their designs for no actual good reason

[sour spindle]

maybe something that would help would be a lite version of nomnom's patch thats just the visual setting changes so people can

yeah

[zenith flax]

the good reason is that their content is broken in my opinion

and i can fix it

so i will fix it

[tall kindle]

art is subjective?

[zenith flax]

can we not

literally their assets as a mod

are flawed

the end result relies on broken settings

im not saying the end result they managed to make is the problem here

[sour spindle]

i mean its more of someone drawing on a grey canvas instead of a white one

[tall kindle]

there is nothing broken, it's just that their settings dont 100% align with vanilla, whether that was intentional at the start, their end result is being forced to change

[zenith flax]

your defending a audience that doesn't exist

you know no one is doing it intentionally

i know people are being forced to change

thats a good thing

[sour spindle]

is there even any way to tell if someone's used nomnom's patcher or not

[tall kindle]

the point isnt that its intentional or not

[zenith flax]

no it is

if someone was doing it intentionally i would consider their argument

[sour spindle]

if there was id be willing to see if theres some formula that can be applied to their material to account for the diffrrence

[tall kindle]

no the point is that people have made a design and you want to change something that doesnt need changing which changes their design

[tall kindle]

idk tbh

[zenith flax]

i think it does need changing and i think it warrants them to change their design

[tall kindle]

you could try checking the settings of the shader itself internally and check that

i think as an api you have no right to tell people what their stuff should look like, this should not be integrated into LLL at the minimum

[tired solar]

I just think tampering with other people's materials isn't it.

If you want people to fix this issue, make them aware of it, rather than forcefully changing their materials to be "correct", without taking into account how their materials end up looking.

[zenith flax]

its not tampering with other peoples materials, its tampering with their shaders to replace their flawed copy with the real one. LLL does this all the time.

no one would be unhappy with this if we caught it earlier

[sour spindle]

i mean you could see eye to eye a little more on this. like. imagine hypothetically that zeekerss decided to tweak visual settings for LC for one of the updates

[tall kindle]

where does LLL currently do this?

[tall kindle]

and whoops, now every person who's made content has to change their design so they can go back to the design they're happy with

[zenith flax]

in the way it restores references to stuff in selectablelevels etc.

[tall kindle]

that isn't a stylistic change though

[zenith flax]

then they either do it or stop making mods tbh

[zenith flax]

thats not the point

im the api guy

[tall kindle]

thats the problem resulting from the point

[zenith flax]

i dont care about the visual end result

the visual end result relies on a core problem i want to fix

if that means people uptop have to change

thats fine

[tall kindle]

then as the api guy, you shouldnt be making destructive changes on a problem you're putting on a pedestal and calling a core problem

you asked about my audience, but im curious about your audience on who really thinks this is a core problem

[sour spindle]

do you know any scrap mods that you can say for sure didnt have nomnom's patch used

i wanna see if my fix actually behaves like nomnom's patch

[tall kindle]

uhh dunno tbh, i only know 100% about enemy mods

[zenith flax]

me

[tired solar]

lol, you want to change the visuals because they're "wrong", yet you don't care about the end result? Why do you care about the visuals then? Just because it technically uses the wrong shader? That's it? Because it's technically wrong? And you don't even care about the visuals really?

[zenith flax]

I care about the ability to reach vanilla parity

if Noosh rips the vanilla dungeon and chucks it back into LLL it should look the same

simple as that

[tall kindle]

also, is this only for LLL shit or si this every single thing LL LLL or whatever

[zenith flax]

not sure, ideally i'd love to run it on everything but

[tired solar]

Forced vanilla parity? Modding is about doing whatever we want with the game

[zenith flax]

then do it, intentionally

this doesn't limit you doing that

[tired solar]

how do you do it intentionally though if what you do intentionally is wrong if you happen to have a "wrong" shader that's still "fixed" for you? You need to know that some mod modifies your shaders in a specific case to be intentional in this case

[zenith flax]

which is already a thing LLL does

and has done without complaint

[loud pond]

idk just like make it optional and that makes both parties happy

[zenith flax]

nah

[loud pond]

???

why

[zenith flax]

because not everything needs a config

sometimes shit can just be done

[loud pond]

ok but drastic changes should be a config

esp if the mod doesnt even use your api

most enemy mods dont use LLL

they shouldnt have to be affected by this change

[tired solar]

okay I need to stay calm here

[zenith flax]

gamebreaking api updates can necessitate mod updates.

[loud pond]

it would be diffrent if they used LLL but they literally dont

[sour spindle]

we need some actual pros and cons over here honestly
the main ones that im thinking of are like
PROS:

• you can copy stuff from vanilla without any problems
• on that note, consistency in general
• performance, probably
• no lighting issues
  CONS:
• specifically projects that didn't use nomnom's patcher might need adjustments to materials, need to check
• on that note, mods that arent maintained anymore might have problems, though updates to LC might have done that already

[zenith flax]

this isn't confirmed to be happening yet chill

[quiet stream]

if your api is forcing people to conform to a style of visual just because you want them to you're stupid

[sour spindle]

not to downplay the main con

it is pretty bad

[loud pond]

I am being chill

[quiet stream]

it doesn't matter if its intentional or not, this is like baby shit

[zenith flax]

this isn't whats happening but ok

[loud pond]

what did I say that was not chill

im saying most enemy mods use LL so why should they be forced into a change by an API they dont use

[zenith flax]

im saying that hasn't been confirmed to be happening whatsoever

[quiet stream]

yeah it makes no sense

[loud pond]

ok but we are discussing the potential for it to happen

so I am giving my thoughts

[zenith flax]

right now the default assumption here should be lll content

non lll content is a whole step after this

[loud pond]

well it seemed like it would be affecting all mods until you specified

[zenith flax]

then you've made a false assumption at some point in reading the discussion

[quiet stream]

I just hopped on because of word of mouth but you know my thoughts already

[zenith flax]

@quiet stream tone down the aggression or im never going to read anything you say again

respectfully

[quiet stream]

i'm for using what's closest to vanilla I think that's cool, I just don't want it to be inforced

[quiet stream]

meh ok

[zenith flax]

i appreciate that

[tired solar]

as far as I remember, batby, didn't you say you optimally wanted to do this to every mod?

[zenith flax]

ideally but not as a base pitch

[tired solar]

yeah, so bringing LL into the discussion is still very relevant

[tall kindle]

this is what sparked the whole all mods, keep in mind most enemies do use LL, don't use nomnom's patcher, don't have the exact correct settings for hdrp/lit, and while i plan on changing the settigns to be more vanilla like in example enemy, at the peak of popularity and all current enemy mods will not have it changed because i don't see a need for pushing for nomnom's patcher when making an enemy

[loud pond]

if you wanna have it affect every mod then it should be optional for mods outside your api

[zenith flax]

my point is

99% of mods are relying on a copy of default shaders that are either accurate or inaccurate to what those shaders should actually be in the context of these all being mods for a basegame

this can have notable visual affects and possibly pretty notable performance implications

right now, unless proven otherwise, no one is doing this intentionally. what people are doing intentionally is changing their use of these shaders to create the visuals they intend to create

As an API dev who's goal is to allow as much parity to default basegame content as possible, I do see this as a problem because as lethal company mods if they are using shaders that should be the same as lethal company shaders then they should be those shaders.

I understand the issue of this fix changing how current custom content looks due to them being created with those flaws in mind. In my personal opinion if your intentional end result relies on unintentional flaws, It's a reasonable expectation for me to assume your down to either live with this change or update your content to reflect how it should look with the correct shaders, or use custom shaders

[sour spindle]

batby im on your side in some aspects

but i assume the opposing perspective is

you're kinda pulling a half life source

i dont think thats a good idea

what i do think is that like

[zenith flax]

i have no idea what that means

[sour spindle]

if you did it

you'd only be rocking the boat once

[loud pond]

it should not be a forced update
you should make it be an optional upgrade people can do to there mods

[sour spindle]

and then after that it'd be over

[loud pond]

forcing it just breaks old mods for no reason

and maybe some people dont wanna use it

[zenith flax]

im fine breaking old mods

that is a thing that can happen

[loud pond]

how the fuck is he determining what "needs" to use a lethal shader
what if you have something that very much needs to be using the default shader

[loud pond]

????

why would you want to do that

thats so unessisary

[zenith flax]

what?

[loud pond]

your complaining that modders aren't doing things in the most optimal fashion so you get to just break it all

[quiet stream]

I don't think doing this willingly is very cool

[loud pond]

^^^

[quiet stream]

it doesn't even have to be old mods that you're breaking, you could be breaking the visuals of either WIP mods or currently releasing mods

[loud pond]

how the fuck are you* I was sending over my buddys message

me and them work on an enemy mod

[zenith flax]

im aware

[quiet stream]

our stuff looks really good with our current setting, and I feel like if you messed with them, if the redwood giant in giantspecimens thread is anything to go by, we would not be very happy

[loud pond]

.

mods that use your api should be uneffected

you are basically throwing your weight around

at this point

[quiet stream]

I don't think you should decide what other people's content looks like if you do want to pursue pushing this change for any non-LLL mods in the future

[loud pond]

that dont use your api*

sorry typo on my end

[zenith flax]

ok so

for the final time

we are not at that discussion yet

[loud pond]

but we are

[zenith flax]

are you serious rn

[loud pond]

multiple times you have shown interest for wanting to effect mods globally

???

[zenith flax]

yes

and that interest doesnt matter right now

[loud pond]

and then you say its not up for discussion yet

[zenith flax]

LLL exclusive comes first

its literally not

[loud pond]

it kind of does because it effects way more people

[zenith flax]

nothing you say about non lll content to me right now is being considered

it is not on my mind in any meaningful way

[quiet stream]

the fact it may be coming later is discussion worthy, why even bring it up if you're not up for discussing it?

[zenith flax]

because someone asked me jesus christ

im literally sitting here talking to people about this and ya'll wanna talk about the one thing im specifically telling you guys doesn't need to be discussed right now

[mellow flame]

It weeds out the unupdated mods

Noosh do you have a pic of before and after since you were the mainly doing it? @sour spindle

[soft eagle]

I think if it would be opt-in by mod authors that's ok, otherwise seems like causing more problems than it solves

[zenith flax]

it def wont be opt in or opt out unless i get a notable argument that changes my mind

[loud pond]

it should be opt in for mods that dont use your api

[sour spindle]

i'd prefer an opt-out for all mods made past the update and opt in for everything else, for LLL mods

[loud pond]

because they arnt using your stuff they shouldnt be effected by it

[dreamy shadow]

I think the assumption of consent that you use to justify changing all of these mods is flawed, modders should at the minimum be able to opt in. Them using a flawed but functional process is not an immediate consent to having their mod broken to force a change in the name of a more idealistic process. I think encouraging change towards a more optimized and "good" implementation of shades is fine but this is something that can be done over time, with an opt in, rather than making sweeping changes and forcing everyone to catch up.

[zenith flax]

ok so i am no longer listening to you about this because for the forth time you just won't listen to what im telling you

[sour spindle]

also the patch for LethalLib materials was an experiment by me

[loud pond]

how would you feel if LL suddently made a big change on how interior and moon shaders work

????

[sour spindle]

i'll be asking evaisa about it seperately

[loud pond]

what is your issue what

[sour spindle]

if they want to use it

[zenith flax]

my issue is im not fucking talking about non lll stuff

someone asked me about it

i said i would love to

if i ever wanted to i would have a discussion about it

this isn't it

this is the forth time ive had to say it

[steady ingot]

Can we do a pros-cons? Like a detailed one

[loud pond]

then I think it makes sense to talk about it if everbody seems to want to

just so it gets over with

[zenith flax]

i dont give a fuck

[rough edge]

I can profile the game to see if there's is shader batches problem

[zenith flax]

im explicitly telling you nothing will happen until a conversation for that happens

i dont want that convo rn

i dont care if you do

make your own api and talk about it idk

[loud pond]

im just making the suggestion to talk about it because that seems to be whats on everybodys mind

[rough edge]

also what is happening??

[zenith flax]

im telling you i dont care about your suggestions right now

[tired solar]

I would assume eba isn't interested in LL or LC modding currently, so anyways I'm kinda the main maintainer of LL rn

[zenith flax]

@rough edge peoples assets rely on flawed copies of unity default shaders and i wanna fix it but it will adjust how said content looks as it was designed for the flaws in mind

[tired solar]

which, everyone thinks that is insane ^

[dreamy shadow]

Raising the bar for how shaders are implemented isn't a zero sum game, it's something that can be done over time, in a way that ensures mods aren't broken or fundamentaly changed without them asking

[zenith flax]

not really

[tall kindle]

i still think the fix is for me to copy the settings in templates like example enemy and whatnot and push for htem to be used there, where projects start, rather than in runtime, where proejcts are post dev

[mellow flame]

how complicated it would it be to change to the new shaders?

[tall kindle]

if you're using nomnom's patcher then you're fine, but 99% of enemy's do not

[mellow flame]

oh alr thx

[mellow flame]

knowing batby he will probably create an easy solution for enemies

[tall kindle]

there is no real easy solution for this, the solution is to suck it up and recreate your enemy design

[rough edge]

Tested with immersive scrap.

Yes, new batch cause is because of using new shader

[tall kindle]

uhh in terms of numbers like what does this mean for the non nerds?

[zenith flax]

im gonna respond to this in dev gen

[rough edge]

bad performance

[sour spindle]

i assume its related not only to batching but also because the HD render pipeline settings the "wrong" version uses has a lot less performant settings than the one zeekerss put in LC

[quiet stream]

I think a valid argument is that it stifles creativity and the possibilities for unique looking moons and other LLL made things if you just force everyone into what you're saying; just because you don't know of anyone currently who's willingly not trying to be LC doesn't mean there won't be in the future, why would this be something you do on purpose?

There's also a ton of moons and interiors that don't play into the aesthetics of the game at all, take almost every single Tolian creation for example, and that's 100% of purpose. He turns up the bloom on his moons, he has very outlandish designs for his interiors and they all fall back on a very different aesthetic than base game's.

This is all LLL content.

I'm worried that doing something like this will squash any possibilities for moons that go for more outlandish or surrealist designs and colors in the future, this is stuff that could happen, it doesn't mean that it never will.

Another moon that really doesn't try abiding by the game's aesthetic is StarlancerZero, or Anomaly

[zenith flax]

None of this limits anything

[quiet stream]

I give up lmao

do whatever you want man

[zenith flax]

Sounds good

Come back when you understand what we’re talking about

[sour spindle]

i doubt thsi change will affect them changing the bloom

thats probably done through a trigger that puts an override on the volume settings

and not through the materials on the objects

[mellow flame]

will this visually effect moons/interiors to look more like the vanilla game?

[sour spindle]

no not really

this only changes meterials

if you're using volume overrides those arent changed

the game uses volume overrides a bunch

its what makes specific areas look different

[quiet stream]

nah yeah I just mentioned that to show that there's stuff that don't really wanna go w the lc-look

but i'm not a moon guy, I shouldn't really care as long as my textures on my enemy models are messed with

[sour spindle]

lemme load up starlancer zero and Anomaly and Tolian

lemme see if they get affected

[quiet stream]

and I have shit to do today other than argue about dumb stuff

[quiet stream]

im probs not gonna look here but sure!

[sour spindle]

thanku

do you have one of tolian's moons in particular so i can save on downloading @quiet stream

[tall kindle]

aquatis has insane bloom now right?

[quiet stream]

not last time I checked

[sour spindle]

also what mod is Anomaly from

[quiet stream]

uuuh spectralis or smth?

I think

[tall kindle]

starlancers moons

is anomaly

[quiet stream]

that's starlancer zero

[sour spindle]

ohh ok

[quiet stream]

anomaly is the route word I think

[sour spindle]

i didnt know you meant the same thing

[quiet stream]

yeye sorry