▫️Jedi Ultra+ and Emotional Support Group

[gentle forge]

I mean it already looks great at 50/25

[red moth]

I did 50 50 and it looked fine

Some areas of the game have raised blacks but that seems to be from the LUTs

So that’s just how it looks

[gentle forge]

awesome

onto Performance then, I was hovering over 55-57 FPS and GPU at 70% 😅 but no stutters or freezes of any kind

decided to try the Ultra mod, the 3rd PAK landed me at 100% GPU and around 45-47FPS

I will try the 2nd PAK tonight, in hopes of a bit more FPS, otherwise no complaints at all and ya them vanilla lightsabers look bad, need that movie lightsaber mod

[red moth]

Ultra plus does also move the settings so what was epic before is now one step lower

[gentle forge]

oh didnt realize that... then I wonder why the performance would be lower?

and GPU utilization higher

I might get rid of the mod then, as Its really not needed for me in the beginning stages of the game at least

[red moth]

You can just move the settings a step lower

Applying the mod is using higher settings

On top of the fixes it has

[gentle forge]

OH I misread, Ultra Plus is higher tier than Epic

If I lowered from Epic, It would still be Epic

I didnt have much time to test it fully last night, only that FPS was lower and GPU utilization higher - but to be expected per using the 3rd PaK - I will try 2nd Pak and see if that gets me back to mid 50s and I'll be happy with that

[solemn gorge]

What settings can i change to improve motion blur when panning around? I need a slight bump to clarity.

[gentle forge]

• So far the most annoying thing is the game keeps crashing on startup with MSI Afterburner/Rivia Tuner and Special K

[gentle forge]

no character shadows 😢

[lusty dock]

weird I use SK and no crashes :/

[gentle forge]

do you use MSI afterburner with SK?

[jovial patio]

check the game is not launching twice, i have that

[lusty dock]

nah

thats not really supported

[gentle forge]

how to check that

[lusty dock]

oh you want to use both at the same time?

[jovial patio]

alt tab and look for a 2nd game lol

[gentle forge]

Thats my issue, I need MSI for fan support and when I turn it off game launches fine and then I turn it on after its started

[gentle forge]

haha no nothing like that in task mgr

[lusty dock]

Just disable rivatuners

aka the server

[gentle forge]

that might be the culprit

rivatuners

[lusty dock]

I use MSI Afterburners but with riva tuners disabled

[gentle forge]

that might be the way to go with this one, i'll test if riva off is doing the trick

I need a better software showing FrameTime

[lusty dock]

use SK

[gentle forge]

shoot didnt realize it has that stuff, ofc it does

I guess I need to find it

somewhere in settings... im still an SK noob

[lusty dock]

its under widgets if I remember correctly

[gentle forge]

I will check tonight, need to explore more with SK, there's a lot going on there - might tweak DLSS to 3.7.2, preset E while im there

[lusty dock]

I use emoose to tweak dlss

sry not emoose xD

[gentle forge]

I've been mucking with SK to update DLSS, its fine

[lusty dock]

thats the creator of the original tool

I meant optiscaler

[gentle forge]

or DLSS Tweak

[gentle forge]

Does it require a lot of manual folder copying/pasting?

[lusty dock]

no its just a dll

it has a nice in-game UI too

You can pretty much tweak dlss to your liking

even the sharpness

[gentle forge]

I will add it to the list 😅

[lusty dock]

https://github.com/cdozdil/OptiScaler

[gentle forge]

does it download and apply the latest DLSS FWs too?

How about Ray Reconstruction and FG

im using DLSS Updater for that but that can also be a pain

[lusty dock]

you need to swap the dlls

or you can use SK for that

[gentle forge]

10-4

right

Game looks great already, rest is icing on the cake

HDR is very Cyberpunk like but better

[red moth]

both use ACES

[sturdy fractal]

once i get my GPU, i can work on finishing RenoDX for it. don't remember what i was missing

[gentle forge]

That'd be awesome

cant believe im saying this but no rush honestly, this already looks good

[sturdy fractal]

the game runs like ass because it has 19,000 shaders.

by comparison, cyberpunk has 2125

the only other game i've seen with over 10K shaders is Batman: Arkham Knight. and we know how that game runs

[red moth]

I loaded up horizon forbidden west and it just kept loading shaders without stopping

Performance was getting destroyed so I stopped using the addon

[sturdy fractal]

the thaumaturge, a SM 6.6 game has 500. so it's not Unreal's fault

i don't even know how you get to 19K shaders. like, do they have a shader for every asset?

[gentle forge]

thats wild, knock on wood no stutters on my newly installed game just yet

[gentle forge]

I dont know how easy or time consuming it is to making a RenoDX on a game but one that really needs it is The Casting of Frank Stone, what an utter HDR mess. It has native HDR10 at least.

[jovial patio]

did you see my RT judder videos earlier? so bad and i'm not even moving

#1236636890543689759 message

rtx stutter on

[sturdy fractal]

it's unreal, so probably needs a new LUT Builder. if you can dump it in #1282729343721803837 we might be able to fix it up

[ocean hollow]

• fixed eyes (again)
• i forget 🤔

[gentle forge]

Latest for anyone to use? Im planning on switching from 3RT to 2RT tonight in hopes of a few more Frames

[red moth]

Have you made it to Koboh yet

[gentle forge]

no just started playing, only 30 mins in

[red moth]

Koboh is where it becomes more open world

It stutters a lot

[gentle forge]

gotcha it would make sense, right now its very confined and barely any NPCs/Enemies

[jovial patio]

yep seem fixed 🙂

[ocean hollow]

yep! this is the latest

[ocean hollow]

ty

[jovial patio]

Cheers

[lusty dock]

@KokLusz's recommendation was 0/50 or 18/30

[red moth]

first slider is just paper white I think so its just personal preference / viewing environment

i think 50 was ~200

[gentle forge]

Wait 0 for HDR brightness? that doesnt seem right

[deep sonnet]

Did they fix FG being broken?

[red moth]

maybe in a pitch black room its fine

its prob 100 nits paper white at 0

[gentle forge]

I think the settings may be switched here

0 for black point and 50 for HDR brightness

but that also will not look good, IDK

[lusty dock]

no it was 0 HDR brightness and 50 black point

[gentle forge]

gotcha

[lusty dock]

it looks good but yea, only in a pitch black room

[gentle forge]

I play in a pitch black room 😁

[lusty dock]

same 😄

[red moth]

dolby recommend 140 paper white in dark room

[gentle forge]

this is 50 / 25

[jovial patio]

the hair is still pretty broken in that opening cutscene

[gentle forge]

Bruh

[lusty dock]

#1212434739500154921 message

here

[jovial patio]

thats weird, are you using ~UltraPlus_v4.2.0_1RTSample_P.pak

[gentle forge]

Not when I took the screenshot above

[gentle forge]

0-50 looks way too crushed

[lusty dock]

crushed?

[gentle forge]

ya blacks look crushed

[lusty dock]

lowering hdr brightness should not crush blacks though

[red moth]

its just a low paper white so its gonna be super dark

well the game's hdr is broken in other ways too

[gentle forge]

Raised black floor to boot

[lusty dock]

do you have ray tracing disabled ?

[gentle forge]

not that I could tell at 25 black point

[red moth]

ill probably take a look at it once shortfuse fixes it

[lusty dock]

at 0/50 the beginning sequence looks a lot more realistic imo, it is supposed to be dark, and it's super bright at 50/50

[gentle forge]

I will try 0/50

I just dont want to loose a lot of shadow details

[gentle forge]

I also thought 50/50 was too bright so lowered it to 50/25

I never think to decrease HDR brightness, thats what we are all here for lol but it did wonders in The Callisto Protocol so Im a believer

[jovial patio]

Yes

[lusty dock]

yea, It looks like that If I disable ray tracing in-game too

[ocean hollow]

there's no point basing anything off the distant moving ships... they're not animated the same way close things are in Unreal

the farther away the fewer updates they get

[ocean hollow]

Respawn do some weird decal thing where they say they're doing seven layers of decals. it's the only thing I can think of. UE doesn't have that many shaders

[jovial patio]

Except for the fact that they move far smoother with RT off

[sturdy fractal]

efficient shader usage would be the use the same code for multiple textures. but this almost feels like they dump all the textures on the GPU and then have a shader for each texture slot. you should reassign the texture addresses, so the shaders look in the same "location" (not really, most like changing a pointer), and you don't have to have a different shader per texture. i've seen games do that, where it's the same shader, but it's t50 in one and t51 in another, or t52, so on and so forth.

[ocean hollow]

is it? 😊 #1236636890543689759 message

[jovial patio]

It is with RT off

[jovial patio]

See this comment

[ocean hollow]

it's still not going to tell you anything about the gameplay

[jovial patio]

No but it is very curious why it happens

[sturdy fractal]

i sorted shaders textures by size and picked two... they're identical in decompilation. why aren't they treated as identical in code...

[ocean hollow]

okay I'll take a look

[jovial patio]

You don't need to honestly, I appreciate the work you're doing regardless

[ocean hollow]

wtf

[sturdy fractal]

oh my god

that's it. they're different in binary because they left pdb references

[ocean hollow]

omg!

🤦‍♀️

[jovial patio]

Wait, does this mean it's fixable 👀

[ocean hollow]

yes

[sturdy fractal]

dx12 won't let you dupe a shader iirc

[jovial patio]

👀🫦

[ocean hollow]

if you can strip the pdb in flight

[sturdy fractal]

but it doesn't go much further than binary diffing, i'm sure

[ocean hollow]

I've turned off all the debugging I could find, but I might have missed one

I don't think I missed any 🤔

[sturdy fractal]

it's built in to the compiled shader

if there's a dxc command i can use to strip it and then pass it back, that could be a thing

[jovial patio]

Shortfuse x Sammi collab? 🫡

[ocean hollow]

where are they stored on disk? or drop a pdb and I'll find them

I can write a thing to strip them all and... hopefully... repack

[sturdy fractal]

they're bundled somewhere.

cso (compiled shader objects) start with DXBC

[ocean hollow]

looking

so that's why they set the shader batch size to 520

still looking

here's some, but the game built them

[sturdy fractal]

manually modifying would mess up the signature i would think

[ocean hollow]

unless it's a reversible hash

[sturdy fractal]

yeah. there's ways

[ocean hollow]

bingo. shipped shaders

now whether i can deserialize it..

umm

😂

hmm there might be another way to not pass the pdb to the game

[sturdy fractal]

i don't think the pdb is in there. just the reference and it's probably enough for it to exist twice on the GPU

or DX12's management

[ocean hollow]

yes i agree

hmm i'm not finding a while bunch of shaders..

[sturdy fractal]

they're real hlsl in there?

[ocean hollow]

still not it tho

[sturdy fractal]

this is how signatures are remade https://www.wihlidal.com/blog/pipeline/2018-09-16-dxil-signing-post-compile/ just more work 😕

[ocean hollow]

ahh

Extraction: You cannot directly access individual shader files like *.cso from the .pak files without extracting them using tools like UnrealPak.

fine then i'll extract the whole game

[sturdy fractal]

yeah, unpack, modify cso, repack. the modifying is the tedious. basically strip the ILDN and HASH segments and resign the cso. you'll end up with identical shaders (hopefully)

[ocean hollow]

sounds like a good job for gpt 😂

[sturdy fractal]

// Also compatible with DXBC
struct DxilContainerHeader {
  uint32_t four_cc;
  uint8_t digest[16];
  uint16_t major_version;
  uint16_t minor_version;
  uint32_t container_size;
  uint32_t part_count;
};
struct DxilPartHeader {
  uint32_t four_cc;
  uint32_t part_size;
};

struct DxilProgramVersion {
  uint32_t value = 0xffff0000;
  [[nodiscard]] unsigned int GetMajor() const { return (value & 0xf0) >> 4; }
  [[nodiscard]] unsigned int GetMinor() const { return (value & 0xf); }
  [[nodiscard]] unsigned int GetKind() const { return (value & 0xffff0000) >> 16; }
  [[nodiscard]] const char* GetKindAbbr() const {
    switch (this->GetKind()) {
      case D3D11_SHVER_PIXEL_SHADER:    return "ps";
      case D3D11_SHVER_VERTEX_SHADER:   return "vs";
      case D3D11_SHVER_GEOMETRY_SHADER: return "gs";
      case D3D11_SHVER_HULL_SHADER:     return "hs";
      case D3D11_SHVER_DOMAIN_SHADER:   return "ds";
      case D3D11_SHVER_COMPUTE_SHADER:  return "cs";
      default:                          return "??";
    }
  }
};

constexpr uint32_t FourCC(char char0, char char1, char char2, char char3) {
  return static_cast<uint32_t>(static_cast<uint8_t>(char0))
         | (static_cast<uint32_t>(static_cast<uint8_t>(char1)) << 8)
         | (static_cast<uint32_t>(static_cast<uint8_t>(char2)) << 16)
         | (static_cast<uint32_t>(static_cast<uint8_t>(char3)) << 24);
}

inline DxilProgramVersion DecodeShaderVersion(std::span<uint8_t> blob) {
  if (blob.size() < sizeof(DxilContainerHeader)) throw std::exception("Invalid shader size.");
  auto* header = reinterpret_cast<DxilContainerHeader*>(blob.data());

  switch (header->four_cc) {
    case FourCC('D', 'X', 'B', 'C'):
    case FourCC('D', 'X', 'I', 'L'):
      break;
    default:
      throw std::exception("Unrecognized header.");
  }

  auto part_offsets = std::span<uint32_t>(
      reinterpret_cast<uint32_t*>(blob.data() + sizeof(DxilContainerHeader)),
      header->part_count);

  for (auto offset : part_offsets) {
    auto* part_header = reinterpret_cast<DxilPartHeader*>(blob.data() + offset);

    switch (part_header->four_cc) {
      case FourCC('S', 'H', 'D', 'R'):
      case FourCC('S', 'H', 'E', 'X'):
      case FourCC('D', 'X', 'I', 'L'):
        break;
      default:
        continue;
    }
    auto part_data = blob.subspan(
        offset + sizeof(DxilPartHeader),
        part_header->part_size);
    auto* program_version = reinterpret_cast<DxilProgramVersion*>(part_data.data());
    return *program_version;
  }
  return DxilProgramVersion{};  // No shader (shader layout perhaps)
}

this is in renodx. lets you iterate through a cso section. in my use case it was for the SHDR. in this case it be: iterate until you find ILDN and/or HASH. if found, create new cso without them

[ocean hollow]

compiling unrealpak for Jedi

[ocean hollow]

oh nice! ty

[gentle forge]

https://tenor.com/view/will-smith-excited-hands-clapping-so-excited-gif-8585438714268613187

[sturdy fractal]

dxa (SM5) allowed you to break apart a cso into parts. not seeing how to do with with dxc

i guess it works:

[ocean hollow]

maybe the container is the same

hmm unrealpak is built but broken

[sturdy fractal]

CROSS_PLATFORM_UUIDOF(IDxcContainerBuilder,
                      "334b1f50-2292-4b35-99a1-25588d8c17fe")
/// \brief Interface to DXC container builder.
///
/// Use DxcCreateInstance with CLSID_DxcContainerBuilder to obtain an instance
/// of this.
struct IDxcContainerBuilder : public IUnknown {
  /// \brief Load a DxilContainer to the builder.
  virtual HRESULT STDMETHODCALLTYPE
  Load(_In_ IDxcBlob *pDxilContainerHeader) = 0;

  /// \brief Add a part to the container.
  ///
  /// \param fourCC The part identifier (eg DXC_PART_PDB).
  ///
  /// \param pSource The source blob.
  virtual HRESULT STDMETHODCALLTYPE AddPart(_In_ UINT32 fourCC,
                                            _In_ IDxcBlob *pSource) = 0;

  /// \brief Remove a part from the container.
  ///
  /// \param fourCC The part identifier (eg DXC_PART_PDB).
  ///
  /// \return S_OK on success, DXC_E_MISSING_PART if the part was not found, or
  /// other standard HRESULT error code.
  virtual HRESULT STDMETHODCALLTYPE RemovePart(_In_ UINT32 fourCC) = 0;

  /// \brief Build the container.
  ///
  /// \param ppResult Pointer to variable to receive the result.
  virtual HRESULT STDMETHODCALLTYPE
  SerializeContainer(_Out_ IDxcOperationResult **ppResult) = 0;
};

https://github.com/microsoft/DirectXShaderCompiler/blob/4e799936fb45b149d8cbf33805ad0be6456efb91/include/dxc/dxcapi.h#L921 probably the proper way

[ocean hollow]

ah there we go. user error

[ocean hollow]

this looks promising

[sturdy fractal]

it's doing something

[ocean hollow]

this old chestnut 😦

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Jedi Survivor\SwGame\Content\Paks>C:\git\UnrealEngine-Respawn\Engine\Binaries\Win64\UnrealPak-Win64-Debug.exe .\pakchunk20-WindowsNoEditor.ucas -extract c:\tmp\
LogPakFile: Display: Using command line for crypto configuration
LogPakFile: Error: Unable to open pak file "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Jedi Survivor\SwGame\Content\Paks/.\pakchunk20-WindowsNoEditor.ucas".
LogPakFile: Display: Unreal pak executed in 0.001272 seconds

[ocean hollow]

idk if it's going to be possible to deserialize the IOStore format... afaik no one ever has

[sturdy fractal]

i might be able to do this in renodx

[ocean hollow]

that might be easier than unrolling IOStore

re-serializing it is not a problem. or shouldn't be... i have Respawn's UE installed

or as a last resort i can try and save the cso's out of live memory, but i'm sure they won't be all there at once

[ocean hollow]

you're fast 😊

brb, sorceress needs covfefe

[sturdy fractal]

DFCC_ShaderDebugName = DXIL_FOURCC('I', 'L', 'D', 'N'),

just needs an enum replacement and the exe would work

this could be considered microsoft's fault for not having an easy way to strip the debug name

Qstrip_debug should strip that

straight up step by step:

In brief, you:

• use DxcCreateInstance to create the interface
• call Load() method to load the container
• call RemovePart() for each part you wish to remove, use FourCC code to identify part (see below)
• call SerializeContainer to reconstruct container without these parts.

https://github.com/microsoft/DirectXShaderCompiler/issues/2374#issuecomment-522191254

[ocean hollow]

yes that's fair. they did leave a lot of debug enabled when baking for shipping through

most likely this one is the culprit

you know what was causing the dilated irises?

a null character in an ini file 😭

the diff tool didn't pick it up

i can't find any commands to combine shaders any more intelligently..

hmm

[quiet oriole]

Have a screenshot of that? 😂 Respawn just changed it by mistake?

Would be nice to document how people can fix the pupils themselves

[ocean hollow]

nope, I'm just assuming that's what happened, because diffing the two sets of files (my mod source files) they look the same, but one of them has the eye problems abd the other doesn't!? I'm assuming I've accidentally inserted a null character somewhere or somehow changed the encoding, I haven't found the flaming gun yet... they're just text files!

[quiet oriole]

Huh, but you mean it was a mod-only issue or was the issue in Patch 9 itself?

[ocean hollow]

no it's a mod issue! I caused it somehow lol

I just can't see how!

flummoxed

like I've literally downloaded the source for 3.2.3 from Nexus, made the same changes as are in my 4.x source, and it compiled without the problem. yet the (apparently identical) 4.x source has the problem still?

in a diff they look identical 😭

the ghost in the machine lol

[quiet oriole]

Ahhhh, shit happens, no worries

[ocean hollow]

huh

1, 2, 2, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 6, 2,
6, 4, 2, 4, 6, 6, 2, 6, 4, 2,
6, 4, 6, 8, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 14,
4, 6, 2, 10, 2, 6, 6, 4, 6, 6,
2, 10, 2, 4, 2, 12, 12, 4, 2, 4,
6, 2, 10, 6, 6, 6, 2, 6, 4, 2,
10, 14, 4, 2, 4, 14, 6, 10, 2, 4,
6, 8, 6, 6, 4, 6, 8, 4, 8, 10,
2, 10, 2, 6, 4, 6, 8, 4, 2, 4,
12, 8, 4, 8, 4, 6, 12, 2, 18

the difference between the first 100 prime numbers

there's not a strict pattern, yet I can sense something is going on

plotted

[quiet oriole]

Spidey-sense

[ocean hollow]

this is what I do when I can't sleep

[rough moss]

I have no idea what this decompiling is going to achieve but it’s interesting to see for sure.

[ocean hollow]

if it works it will turn 19,000 shaders into a few hundred, most likely

I'm spending a lot of time trying to get the 19,000 shaders to build in time without causing hitches. idk that it's really possible...

you only have a few milliseconds per frame to instantiate them, and then from the time they're called to the time they're actually needed can be "a few seconds" to "right now! we need them right now"

so when you have 20k of them it's a lot more difficult than say 500

[jovial patio]

TLDR: respawn shit the bed

[ocean hollow]

I guess to give you an idea, at 60 fps the game seems to be able to initialize about 60 shaders per frame (on my 4090 / 7945HX) through a few pathways (precompilation, background, and foreground). that's ~300 frames or 5 seconds to all of them

yes basically. I can improve it but it's unsolvable

no matter what you do you will always have edge cases where they don't init in time

and then there's Koboh where the UE streamer is doing its proper thing as you run around, and you hit a specific point on the map and a script in the game says "display these assets now", and the mesh hasn't loaded, textures aren't loaded, lighting isn't calculated, and the streamer has zero chance to prepare for it (pre-streaming) this is what causes the huge hitches in the tunnel and at various points on the map

combining shaders will help a lot. removing these scripts will help a lot

hopefully I can find the scripts and replace them with an empty script

[ocean hollow]

@sturdy fractal it might be possible to deserialize the .ucas IOStore files if it's not possible/easy to modify the shader stream

I'm travelling the next few days so will have to pause but lmk if you want me to pick it back up

[sturdy fractal]

Same here. Out for about a week, but can do some proof of concepts

[gentle forge]

https://tenor.com/view/star-citizen-aurora-get-this-man-an-aurora-get-this-man-a-shield-spaceship-gif-13229558

Someone cancel these two's vacations / JK!

@ocean hollow btw, short story, on my newly installed game, I had no stutters, I then installed 3RT file from nexus, had no stutter but when I installed 2RT from the latest file in here, I had stutter.

So I just installed 2RT from nexus site, went back to no stutter, so you might want to check your file(s) shared here

Also, the 0/50 setting turned out to be very good, no blacks or shadow crush at all

[rocky hemlock]

Well, I'm glad someone liked my setting recommendation
Those are rather acquired taste for most people I imagine

[gentle forge]

I always lean toward accuracy and play in pitch black room, I havent run into a bad recommendation in HDR channel yet

[red moth]

If you’re looking for bad recommendations

https://youtube.com/@plasmatvforgaming9648?si=uupVn_bNJj8mKJv9

[gentle forge]

haha Plasma video, no I dont want to ruin my morning

[lusty dock]

I use 0/50 too 😄

[rocky hemlock]

I haven't checked before and now FFXVI has devoured my drive, but did the patch fixed massive hitches when going in and out of the cutscenes?

[gentle forge]

I did not notice any on a new game but others said there's still stutter in later portions of the game - its still horrible optimized, GPU never went even 90% on mid 50s FPS

[lusty dock]

Weird, I can notice the traversal stutter even on the first tutorial map

But Sammi's mod fixes most of the weirdness

[gentle forge]

Was it the latest file Sammi shared here? That in fact casued stutter for me

[lusty dock]

I used the latest from nexus mods

RT2 samples

[copper lynx]

The one on the nexus does not have the dilated eye fix

This is the latest

#1236636890543689759 message

[gentle forge]

Thats what Im using as well, but only had a short time testing it. I may just go back to no mod (no stutter there) but the modded visuals upgrade looks too good.

[lusty dock]

yea same, exept the game withut the mod stutters a lot more lol

I mean on my PC

[gentle forge]

I know there's slow mo when entering combat, that can look like stutter when kicking in? IDK, will have to test more

[ocean hollow]

it's not a vacation we rescued a dog a few weeks ago and have to drop him off to go to his new home with friends in Idaho 😊

[rough moss]

Just ran the latest pak. Can confirm that it runs better for me than the pak before Patch 9 in Koboh. Game looks great, the way that you made the lower DLSS levels look even better allowed me to put it on Balanced and be really happy with the IQ on a 75” TV. I’m still sticking with raster and no RT until I get my next card.

Just noticed the lack of physics for Toa’s hair tentacles in the bar though.

[ocean hollow]

oh yay! I think I turned GTAO back on too which I think looks much better than SSAO

I think I mostly redid the audio streaming, which can absolutely cause hitches because it tries to sync with events... enabled GTAO, and fixed (another) problem with shader precompilation

@sturdy fractal do you have a frame times screenshot handy?

[sturdy fractal]

I do not.

[red moth]

14k in mirrors edge catalyst

[rough moss]

Any idea why the physics on the hair tentacles would stop. I noticed that but before. Maybe something with the blueprint tweaks? 🤷🏽‍♂️

[red moth]

ya

i searched and there's only one shader in catalyst that uses the tonemapping parameters

[gentle forge]

I had to revert back to nexus version as i was getting alot of stutter.

[ocean hollow]

mm I think it's faster

I think r.ShaderPipelineCache.PreloadBatchTime is not actually per frame and shouldn't be limited. I'd assumed it was running on the RHI but I don't think it is

which, hopefully means the next one will be the best yet, but I'm on the road atm

[ocean hollow]

@sturdy fractal here come the extracted shaders

yep, that's them

they are in pakchunk0-WindowsNoEditor.pak -> SwGame/Content/

which hopefully means since they are not in one of the utoc / ucas files, they will not be IOStore serialized........ which means we can mess with them and repack them without worrying about serialization order.

i'm uploading them to GDrive. it looks like they're just all stuffed into the ushaderbytecode files one after the other

so if you have code to modify them, we can modify those files and i can repack and override the game source files

here they are: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/18KXSFi5EJXK7xp_P7tX4jTtBodMVJqoY?usp=drive_link

i've also enabled PSO logging, which will dump ushaderprecache files listing all shaders. if you think some shaders might have not been compiled in the shipping build, i can try and import these into UEditor to build them and create a mod with more complete shaders. if a few of us play the game with these settings on, we might be bale to combine the ushaderprecache files and build a complete PSO mod

[ocean hollow]

i'm trying to compile the missed PSOs. it's 10 minutes and still compiling on 32 cores

[sturdy fractal]

https://github.com/microsoft/DirectX-Specs/blob/master/d3d/ShaderCache.md

Another idea is to not use Microsoft shader cache and instead use the GPU (eg: nvidia). Microsoft might cache by blob, and GPUs might do it by bytecode

The fact dx12 favors signed really has me leaning on the fact MS doesn't analyze the internals (strip debug) for hashing

Wait, it says SM5? Really? Hmm. I thought they were SM6. Maybe it's mislabeled

[ocean hollow]

yup

no i'm pretty sure UE4.27 is SM5

[sturdy fractal]

All my decompilations have been SM6.1

[ocean hollow]

umm. hmm. yeah

[sturdy fractal]

And I think, unless they shipped dxil.dll, they're not upconverting on the fly

I've dumped SM5 in DX12, but it didn't happen here

[ocean hollow]

also, yes, i remember seeing something about how D3D12 shader caches are broken down into (from memory) 128 KiB file chunks. there was an odd article i found where someone injected or hex edited a DLL so they could be much bigger, and it hugely improved performance

[sturdy fractal]

I'm still trying to find how exactly the default caching works, but not finding much. I'd imagine MS is caching two separate compilations with identical values (different keys).

I don't know what Nvidia uses as an input for their internal cache. And I'd imagine DX12/Unreal is telling Nvidia not to cache or it'd be double work.

[ocean hollow]

found it! 128 MiB https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1281854-dx12-d3dscache-limit-too-small-repeated-fps-drops-and-stutters/

i just thought it was an interesting choice

[ocean hollow]

the shaders are all handled by UE, afaik

[sturdy fractal]

Random reddit post for unrelated game:

Recently i went into the AMD shader cache folder and noticed that games which i run on DX11 have shader in the folder but games which run on DX12 do not have a shader file. If i switch the game API from DX12 to DX11 the game generates shader cache instantly.

Is there any reason why it is not generating it or is it just a bug?

It's in the .MD link I sent: MaximumInMemoryCacheEntries default 128mb. 🫣

[ocean hollow]

hmm

[ocean hollow]

oh, so it is!

[sturdy fractal]

Maybe Nvidia does a better job of hashing shaders than MS

[ocean hollow]

this is STILL going!

[sturdy fractal]

Another random post says Starfield uses Nvidia cache, but Starfield is also dx12. So maybe there's double caching or no DX cache there.

[ocean hollow]

1 KiB

[ocean hollow]

yes, and all UE games i've worked with do generate (very small) D3DSCache files and DXCache... but i don't know why. afaik, UE handles all the shader caching

ah ...

thanks gpt

[sturdy fractal]

Can UE Caching be disabled? I don't trust UE 4 at all.

[ocean hollow]

yes i think so

[sturdy fractal]

As long as it's doing a precompile step, it should be fine. D3DSCache or Nvidia should be able to handle it

[ocean hollow]

r.ShaderPipelines | Int32 | 1 | 0x0 (SetByConstructor)
        Enable using Shader pipelines.
r.Shaders.Optimize | Int32 | 1 | 0x0 (SetByConstructor)
        Whether to optimize shaders.  When using graphical debuggers like Nsight it can be useful to disable this on startup.

and probably several other options

[ocean hollow]

that's not the problm

the problem is, before shipping a UE game, you're supposed to turn on shader logging and play every corner of the game, then give the log file to UE to compile all the shaders

in a lot of games, the devs don't do this

they rely on on-the-fly shader discovery / compilation, which is what causes hitches

this is what i mean... you can turn on user logging of PSOs and shaders, which i've had enabled for a few days now while playing. that's these files

now i'm forcing the game to precompile them, and then will use r.ShaderPipelineCache.Save to dump them to disk, which can be packaged for other users

[sturdy fractal]

If the hitching is caused by too many shaders in VRAM, then on the fly compilation could be better if DX12 caching results in less shaders being used at a type (better detection of repeated shaders)

[ocean hollow]

oh yes absolutely

the 19k shaders is also a problem 'cause of the debug pdbs

it's 2 distinct problems

[sturdy fractal]

Sure, it'll hitch first time by driver, but the same shader won't be bounced around perhaps even in the same frame

[ocean hollow]

i don't know why consoles don't seem to have in-flight shader compilation problems like PCs do

[jovial patio]

yall sound like you're going to crack it, impressive 🤝

[sturdy fractal]

Consoles ship with GPU shaders. No analysis at all.

Shader compilation is a bit of misnormer. HLSL is compiled to bytecode. Bytecode is then transcompiled for each specific hardware as instructed by driver (DLL). Change the driver, change the transcompilation. SM6 is LLVM which the GPU has to reinterpret to native.

Essentially consoles ship what PCs consider GPU cache

I'd imagine the PlayStation SDK has the equivalent of a "GPU driver".

[jovial patio]

Yeah shader compilation is very much a pc only issue.

[ocean hollow]

that's how I thought it should happen. so why don't NVidia and AMD ship GPU shaders with their drivers?

[jovial patio]

hardware permutations I believe make it so that shaders compiled on different machines aren't exactly the same, could be wrong but I think that's it

although i'm flummoxed on why the industry does not seem intent on making a hw agnostic solution so that shader precompilation isn't a thing at all

[sturdy fractal]

Each driver can rework how the bytecode is converted. Instead of it being in the hardware, it's on the software, I think. So each driver version can decide that float * float + float is better as a mad( instruction. Or whatever optimization works best for what purpose. Some things are better in float32 or float16. The driver would decide.

I think GeForce Experience does that level of microoptimization per game.

But at the same time, Nvidia doesn't have the copyright to be shipping other game dev's code. Even if compiled.

[ocean hollow]

this seems like a fixable problem tho

[sturdy fractal]

They did with SM5. And the optimizations were too specific. It would work in 4xfloat32 constraints with optimizations pre built. But GPUs work better than others. So SM6 is LLVM, which is more agnostic and less optimized and opinionated about what optimizations. But at the same time, it means you need to pass that bytecode for the driver to do its translation

Usually not too much of a problem except when the game wants to load 19000 shaders.

You could also spread out your shader compilation by section. And not all games properly split their shaders. I find unused shaders all the time in games. Cyberpunk loads SDR shaders when in HDR that will never hit

[jovial patio]

yeah but why isnt directx or vulkan or someone attempting to make a universal solution, it makes sense to package shaders precompiled with a game download

[sturdy fractal]

The moment a driver comes out those shaders are useless.

[jovial patio]

see that doesnt make sense to me because xbox / ps gets software updates too

so why arent their shaders now invalid

[sturdy fractal]

Only like 2 GPUs.

Exact same vram and chip

[jovial patio]

mmm

so is there a real solution for pc rather than just bandaid fixes?

[sturdy fractal]

And software updates don't mean it's a new way of compiling GPU native code. That is likely in the SDK. And games rarely update their SDK base

[sturdy fractal]

Just hide it better like I was alluding to before. You should know what shaders are used in what level and every game has a loading screen.

It's because you know it's shader compilation that you care, but games buffer textures as well.

That's more a user experience issue than a technical one.

Masking texture loads is not unlike masking shader compilation.

[jovial patio]

but the only reason they have 19000 shaders is because they included debug shaders to compile as well which is a dev mistake right?

[sturdy fractal]

I haven't counted the duplicates, but there are definitely some, which shouldn't happen.

19000 is just bad altogether

The lack of care is on full display. Nobody checked?

They clearly messed with other stuff though. I'm not entirely sure that on PS5 that issue would exist. But then again, it's Unreal on PS5, so it's possibly not using the native (Sony SDK) way of doing things

[ocean hollow]

I don't think they looked at frame times

their optimisations in patch 9 seem pretty arbitrary

increase PhysX, shader batch size, and something else I can't remember... with 19,000 shaders and missed PSOs?

[jovial patio]

astounding incompetence for a company that size tbh

[ocean hollow]

there is also unbalanced time on GPU/draws/RHI/game thread

[jovial patio]

the only other game they have to support is apex legends, you'd think they'd do better

[ocean hollow]

for some reason games studios just don't seem to know this stuff

and then they test it on really high end dev rigs and it all looks fine

it's bad engineering. you need to test on low end PCs too

[sturdy fractal]

I was reading a thread about blueprints vs C++ code and one of the points said is that Unreal is geared towards people who don't write code. That's kinda true. I mean, you shouldn't have to be a guru to make a game, but people could easily be fiddling with dials not knowing the consequence. A single checkbox click feels innocuous, but you don't see the code you're affecting by that choice

[ocean hollow]

oh, that absolutely happens

[sturdy fractal]

Make it look a certain way, or do a certain thing was put as top priority with no regard for a "right" way of doing things. Too much power given by Unreal

[ocean hollow]

a good example is Hogwarts Legacy where every building in Hogsmead has different textures. almost no shared materials, meshes, or instances

they got very carried away artistically and paid for it

then you look at Jedi and the buildings are HLODs built from shared materials and meshes. very clever... but they haven't set up their pipelines properly and encountered streaming problems. rather than understanding why, they manually created low quality meshes for cliffs and buildings, and swap them out using Blueprints

it's usually something in games because they're not devs or engineers

one thought I had was starting a company to advise on game construction and help games companies optimize and pack for shipping

[sturdy fractal]

That's the job of the lead to address. You don't need coders who know how to do everything. But you do need competent oversight

[ocean hollow]

100%

there's so many instances of it not happening though

though if you did have a company they could hire for this stuff, would they pay for it?

when a lot of these companies seem to hire the testers that aren't trained and fire their dev team when the game is finished ?

idk. I'm thinking something like Designers Republic but for technical game optimization

call the company Hit Squad or The Wolf (from Pulp Fiction)

[sturdy fractal]

Looking at the credits list there's probably so many people involved they were just happy to get it "playable". They kept kicking the optimization can down the road in dailies.

[jovial patio]

its still jon carr's fault, dropped the ball jon!

[ocean hollow]

yeah

this could be fixed by having regular reviews by the optimization company written into the contract. they have to implement the recommendations or they are in breach of contract

i did this in my IT company

if they didn't maintain their infrastructure everything became billable

so it's in everyone's interest to follow advice and then the final optimizations are straightforward

[jovial patio]

yeah, especially as it doesn't even run that great on high end hw

[ocean hollow]

yes. and one of the recommendations would be to test on low end hardware. not just limit vram on high end, but actually test on a few low and mid endpoints

you could have games shipping with very few problems

which means better reputations, loyalty, and profits

anyway, that's just an idea. let me know if anyone wants to start a company with me 😂

[jovial patio]

Would love to do something that makes pc gaming better. Unfortunately I know jack shit about game development. 😅

[narrow spruce]

I hope you crack the code! That'd be amazing if even some of the stutters present in Jedi were alleviated. Good luck!

[jovial patio]

video for those interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smD4okK5-Hw

[ocean hollow]

thanks. i'd love to contact Alex but hate using twitter

[ocean hollow]

i now have 2 paks, which are both very similar, one gets 40 fps and smooth as butter, the other gets 60 fps and choppy

hopefully bifurcating these two should tell me something!

it's crazy to me that there's this much difference i don't really understand it

found it

[ocean hollow]

@sturdy fractal the biggest issue i have now is RHI and GT are stable, but draws fluctuate between 14ms and ~28ms per frame

i can't see an obvious cause, i've tried to keep per frame tasks consistent on the RHI thread, but still can't see what's spiking draws

[odd gulch]

survivor on sale rn

$28 USD

should i scoop it up for later?

Y/n?

[red moth]

its a bloated game but an ok experience overall

its $21 on cdkeys

[odd gulch]

I'm okay just getting it through steam for the extra $7

haha

no ethical reason, just lazy

[red moth]

ya cdkeys is origin anyway

its an ok deal for $28

i'd say its worth

def not worth playing until renodx is out for it though

[odd gulch]

yea i'll wait

just figured it's rarely on sale that low

so might as well scoop it for later

aight i bought it. Will wait for renodx 🙂

[gentle forge]

Odd statement... its probably the best hdr game ive ever seen

[lusty dock]

yes it looks good

the performance was/is the issue with the game

but it runs well enough now

[red moth]

ya i thought it looked pretty solid back when i played it

but i also knew absolutely nothing about hdr then

it still looks good from screenshots I've seen

[odd gulch]

the HDR is good?

[red moth]

but then there's also the fact that there's a contrast slider

which means they have 0 faith in their hdr

#1282729343721803837 message

and this clusterfuck

they use LUTs created in OCIO which means they might have actual movie luts provided by disney

but their math makes no sense

so they might just be applying the LUTs wrong

and theres the whole 1.5x exposure thing unreal does in HDR

[ocean hollow]

it's a great game, i really love it. if you liked Fallen Order, then yes i think so

[odd gulch]

i very much enjoyed fallen order

i bought it

[ocean hollow]

@sturdy fractal the draw ms blowouts happen even with everything at "Low"
*and even with RT disabled

[odd gulch]

in the library for after my satisfactory addiction ends

[red moth]

also custom gamma sounds a lot like the same bs that death stranding and god of war had

[gentle forge]

HDR is fantastic - Try 0/50 setting recommended here

[ocean hollow]

idk if you guys know this but you can override the tonemapper entirely with e.g.

r.TonemapperGamma=1.8
r.Color.Min=-0.005
r.Color.Mid=0.7
r.Color.Max=1.0

[odd gulch]

color.min i'd probably change to 0.000 right?

is mid exposure?

and max is how much it'll blow over peak?

[red moth]

that might be for SDR

[ocean hollow]

you can do whatever you want

[red moth]

.005 is the recommended minimum for SDR i'm pretty sure

[ocean hollow]

milky blacks ?

[red moth]

better to let shortfuse figure out what they were even doing in the first place

[ocean hollow]

full range

yes of course. but just saying if something bothers you with HDR it can be tweaked

also Respawn are applying different tonemaps depending on which map (planet), and where in the map you are

[gentle forge]

Try 0/50 setting recommended here

[ocean hollow]

if you prefer a consistent tonemap, you can have it

[ocean hollow]

usually unreal games Color.Min=0.00 is slightly brighter than black, depending on your black setting, so a small bias to say -0.002 can be helpful

[ocean hollow]

this looks pretty good to me, i have a calibrated screen and i don't see any cramping

[red moth]

try to just link images posted in other channels rather than reuploading. idk what the limits are on uploads but we put an ass load of files on this server

ya the end result is good

[gentle forge]

there's really isnt honestly, no crushed blacks or raised blacks contrary to what reshade HDR analysis says

[ocean hollow]

i'm not seeing it. i trust this screen

[gentle forge]

10-4, Previous screenshots were with diff. settings, these I took last night with 0/50

[ocean hollow]

it's oversaturated, but that's your choice obviously 😂

[gentle forge]

lol thats just how the game looks

[red moth]

they lean on ACES sweeteners heavily

[odd gulch]

0/50?

[gentle forge]

we can always desaturate it and try to go for that realistic cyberpunk look LOL

[red moth]

2 sliders
first one is brightness, second is contrast

[odd gulch]

oh

thx

[gentle forge]

Yee 0 for HDR brightness, 50 for Shadow details

[red moth]

0 brightness is either 80 or 100 paper white idk

[odd gulch]

so you wouldn't mess with the tonemapper lines?

[odd gulch]

interesting. That's dim on the paperwhite scale but i'm down with it

[red moth]

Maybe set minimum to 0 idk

ill revisit the game once shortfuse is done

[gentle forge]

I was skeptical myself, it looks great

[odd gulch]

idk whatever. i'm not gonna play the game yet so i'll bother you guys later

🙂

once ya'll figure it out

I gotta finish my satisfactory addiction and then finish armored core

then i can decide what to do next

[gentle forge]

you know where to find us hehe

[lusty dock]

you can't, we will decide for your

[odd gulch]

fine i'll notify you once i'm done with the other 2

lol

[ocean hollow]

it does? doesn't it depend on the saturation you chose for Windows HDR tuning?

[lusty dock]

noooo we don't use that 😄

[ocean hollow]

i was gonna say.... lol

i mean, if you love saturation go for it but

[odd gulch]

Using the saturation slider might be a banable offense here...

[ocean hollow]

oh yeah 🤔

[gentle forge]

Correct that saturation slider is always zero on any semi smart person's machine lol

[ocean hollow]

well that's interesting

hehe

spot the difference

[red moth]

Bloom?

Idk I’m on my phone

[rocky hemlock]

Something weird is going on with his hairs on the second picture

[gentle forge]

Shadow? One is def. sharper than the other

[ocean hollow]

let's do this a little more scientifically

[gentle forge]

oh and a cat? lol

[ocean hollow]

now spot the difference with the frame paused

[gentle forge]

sorry look the same

[red moth]

Massive drop in framerate

[rocky hemlock]

Shhhh

[rocky hemlock]

Textures on the building look a bit funky on the first picture

[gentle forge]

the HIGHER framerate pic def. is more blurry

[ocean hollow]

the slowest framerate is vanilla

so this is a speed hack

[rocky hemlock]

Def worth it

[ocean hollow]

i'll show you what i'm playing with

you can see the command bottom left

so here's the thing... unreal has a second method of upscaling ... TAA upscaling, which is really the same tech as DLSS or FSR ... they are all temporal upscalers

but what's unique about unreal's TAA upsampling, is it happens before post processing and several other things

so, why is this interesting... well, because of Respawn's raytracing

[gentle forge]

why arent you at NASA

[ocean hollow]

hahah

[gentle forge]

serious question

[narrow spruce]

I agree with both of you, haha. Imo Jedi Survivor's HDR presentation is incredible, but the idea of Renodx is simply too enticing for me. So I'm gonna hold off on playing more of the game until rendodx comes out.

[ocean hollow]

my suspicion is, Respawn's raytracing does NOT use checkerboard... which is a method used to render at say 1/2 or 1/4 resolution to improve performance

so what can we do about that? ... well, what if we trick it?

we run unreal at say 75% resolution, which yields almost 50% fewer pixels (e.g. 2000x2000 = 4,000,000 ... 1500x1500 = 2,250,000 (i think?))

[gentle forge]

we can start a job application at NASA/HR.com

[ocean hollow]

we could then increase the quality of some of the post-process effects and filters to increase the visual quality back to what it was

[narrow spruce]

I noticed how certain areas max out at 981 nits and others at like over 1500, and the HDR looks a bit different with the exposure and contrast I'd say depending on the level. It's interesting. Still looks really good pretty much all the time to me though!

[ocean hollow]

voilà we have basically checkerboard rendering

[ocean hollow]

hahaha

i've actually been playing chess with a NASA physicist lol

[gentle forge]

you mean kicking his ass in chess

[ocean hollow]

we've only had one game so far

[gentle forge]

What was the frame rate, ok i will stop now

[red moth]

so they did basically nothing at all to optimize ray tracing

is their ray tracing entirely custom or is it built on UE4's ray tracing

[ocean hollow]

all i'm trying to do is stabilize the draw call frametime

which i suspect is being caused by some delay on the RHI thread

[ocean hollow]

i would totes work at NASA lol

when i was a girl i wanted to be CIA 😂

[ocean hollow]

idk, they did optimize it, it's actually pretty clever ray tracing, unlike anything i've seen before... it's most like Cyberpunk's path tracing (or rather Nvidia's path tracing...)

it seems to use a spatiotemporal reservoir ... in English, it caches rays over space and time into a reservoir, so it doesn't need to keep calculating them

by comparison, UE's default ray tracing is dumb as mud

(it calculates everything live)

BUT, there is always moar optimization 😂

[red moth]

so its just super intensive

it did look amazing

[ocean hollow]

now there's another question ... initial upscaling using TAA causes dithering. i wonder if i can force the engine to use FSR for initial upscaling, which has a dedither routine

[ocean hollow]

yup

but it's very close to path tracing on a technical level

even though they never advertised it as that

[red moth]

i still dont know the difference between pt and rt

i thought pt was just rt but more of it

[ocean hollow]

DLSS is pretty messed up in this game

[ocean hollow]

the real answer is there isn't one....

• ray tracing "traces" a "path" from the camera to an object, hopefully to a light, and then hopefully back to the camera so you can see it
• path tracing "traces" a "path" from the camera to an object, hopefully to a light, and then hopefully back to the camera so you can see it

😊

so, what is the difference?

[narrow spruce]

doesn't PT use a lot more rays than RT? I remember Digital Foundry covering this before, but can't remember exactly what makes PT better than RT. Maybe it's the denoisers. Something makes it more accurate they said.

[ocean hollow]

okay WTF. the higher FPS is with DLSS disabled. lower FPS is DLSS quality 😂

how can i work under these conditions 😂

[ocean hollow]

nope

i'd be interested to hear their analysis. i would be impressed if it's 100% correct

the difference is marketing, really

on a surface technical level, they are the same thing

both "ray tracing" and "path tracing" use what's called the "raytracing equation"

hmm how to explain

i think the confusion comes from what we think of as "ray tracing" ... usually you're referring to Nvidia RTX, which separates raytracing into shadows, reflections, global illumination or ambient occlusion, skylight, etc.

i think the original idea was, this way you can choose to just do "some" raytracing on top of a raster image, because we didn't have the GPU grunt - or the methods - to do it all at once

[quiet oriole]

Yeah, DF also found this to be the case... but that video is not public yet; not all settings always engage. But they do after a restart of the game.

[narrow spruce]

that's really interesting

[quiet oriole]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smD4okK5-Hw

[ocean hollow]

so i guess you could say "what we call ray tracing" is usually

• make reflections nicer (RT)
• make some shadows nicer, too (RT)
• make global illumination nicer (RT)
• make skylight nicer... oops, ran out of GPU ... let's leave that raster
• etc...

[quiet oriole]

Oh, it went life 4 hours back

[narrow spruce]

wait, skylight is part of RT? I never knew that!

is it possible to have like volumetrics be ray traced?

[quiet oriole]

Aren't volumetrics often more an artistic choice and not happening that often in real life?

RT relies on real light rays, so if it isn't how things behave in real life, volumetrics likely won't show

[narrow spruce]

Yeah, I look at volumetrics almost more like a post processing effect, but I have no idea how they actually work. Volumetrics seem to be baked in. It's an effect like fog or dust particles maybe. I could be wrong though. Maybe RT skylight is just sun shadows or something.

[quiet oriole]

Not post-processing, volumetrics can be done in various ways, DF has a good video on it, let me look it up

[ocean hollow]

whereas "what we call path tracing is"

• send some low-cost rays "samples" out into the scene (instead of using the full RT equation, maybe use a modified Phong equation)
• what samples come back with something (color, luminance)? let's send more rays there (and ignore the ones that came back black) <-- this is called "importance sampling", or IS
• maybe we send more Phong rays to where we got some details back <-- this is called "resampled importance sampling" or RIS
• okay, now we have a good idea of where rays are meaningful... let's do the full RT equation to those places ("spatial")
• okay we have those rays back, now we have a good picture, but it's noisy, let's denoise it
• great... now, why don't we remember where there was data returned from rays from previous frames ("temporal"), so we don't have to send rays there as often
• cool, let's stick all those rays into a big reservoir, so we can remember what things looked like over space and time (spatiotemporal)
  ... that's what spatiotemporal resampled importance sampling is. also known as ReSTIR

[quiet oriole]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0sYTrX3VHI

[ocean hollow]

ReSTIR = Spatiotemporal Reservoir Importance Resampling

(or something like that)

oh, also "RTX ray tracing" usually has a denoiser for shadows, one for AO, one for reflections etc... whereas "path tracing" usually has one or two denoisers that do everything

but in reality, saying RT and PT aren't the same isn't quite true. they're both Alabama cousins 😂

[ocean hollow]

yes. check out Hogwarts Legacy Ultra+ ... i turned on RT skylight 😊

it looks so good

[narrow spruce]

For some reason I thought only Path Tracing had denoisers. THat's pretty cool to learn all this!

[ocean hollow]

in fact we forced Unreal into full PT mode, because it supports it (only at about 1 frame every 2 seconds) ... and RTX Skylight + GI + shadows + reflections looks extremely similar to full path tracing

[quiet oriole]

God no, without denoisers, any RT would look grainy now or would result in very very awful performance

[ocean hollow]

...kind of as you'd expect 😊

[narrow spruce]

I played a lot of Hogwarts on Xbox, and I only just got into PC gaming earlier this year, so now I want to revisit that game but on PC. I'm sure it'd look amazing with RT and your mods. That'd be such a treat to see that game in all its glory!

[quiet oriole]

What hardware specs do you have?

[ocean hollow]

yep! RTX denoisers tend to be very specialised. but they're also costly in terms of FPS

[narrow spruce]

I'll check this out, thanks. Always good to learn new things and how these graphical settings work!

[ocean hollow]

and how can disabling DLSS give me an extra 25 FPS Survivor????

[quiet oriole]

It shows how volumentrics are done have changed approaches over time

[narrow spruce]

RTX 4080 and i7 13700KF. I would like to get the 5090 next year though, but we'll see.

[narrow spruce]

Maybe because the game is GPU limited with DLSS on?

That's my only guess

[quiet oriole]

#1236636890543689759 message #1236636890543689759 message

[quiet oriole]

Good specs, enjoy

[quiet oriole]

#1236636890543689759 message

[ocean hollow]

OHHHH

DLSS isn't actually downsampling!

when i enable it, it's using DLSS, just at 100% screen res

🤦‍♀️

[sturdy fractal]

There's actually a lot of color that gets deleted by ACES. You guys just haven't seen untonemapped.

[narrow spruce]

so DLAA sorta?

[ocean hollow]

nope, not even

[sturdy fractal]

See #1258518848064454708 message

[quiet oriole]

Yeah haha, it only upsamples haha

[sturdy fractal]

ACES says red orange yellow and pink are the same color

[ocean hollow]

that's what i mean 😂

[sturdy fractal]

I noticed my Pixel 8 camera does the same in real life. I tried to take a picture of a red/pink streak during 5AM sunrise and it completely removed the red/pink into one flat yellow

[quiet oriole]

Sorry for stating the obvious haha

[ocean hollow]

The problem with the valley was this. The Monk currently believed that the valley and everything in the valley and around it, including the Monk itself and the Monk’s horse, was a uniform shade of pale pink. This made for a certain difficulty in distinguishing any one thing from any other thing, and therefore made doing anything or going anywhere impossible, or at least difficult and dangerous. Hence the immobility of the Monk and the boredom of the horse, which had had to put up with a lot of silly things in its time but was secretly of the opinion that this was one of the silliest.
— Douglas Adams, Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

one of my favourite books lol

my phone battery is currently exploding, just really slowly

[sturdy fractal]

That horse has a more laissez-faire attitude than I could ever. My response is more

(insert horse scoffing animation)

[rocky hemlock]

I mean, Nvidia recommends for DLSS to do that too, but no one fucking listens inducing both Epic AND Nvidia
UE DLSS plugin is kinda bad

Here's FSR2 4K quality (PostFX done preupscale) vs 4K DLSS perf RR (PostFX done postupscale)
https://s20.directupload.net/images/240907/pq2by9qp.jpg
https://s20.directupload.net/images/240907/qsf54wwl.jpg

(not my screenshots)

Also AW2 can let you set PostFX either pre or post upscale, but FFXVI ate my drive so I'm not DL anything until I'm done with it.

[red moth]

Ya it has a huge effect on framerate

[ocean hollow]

qsf54wwl.jpg is undoubtably better

[ocean hollow]

So the Monks were built with an eye for originality of design and also for practical horse-riding ability. This was important. People, and indeed things, looked more sincere on a horse. So two legs were held to be both more suitable and cheaper than the more normal primes of seventeen, nineteen or twenty-three; the skin the Monks were given was pinkish-looking instead of purple, smooth and soft instead of crenellated. They were also restricted to just the one mouth and nose, but were given instead an additional eye, making for a grand total of two. A strange-looking creature indeed. But truly excellent at believing the most preposterous things.

i love Adams ❤️ 😂

[ocean hollow]

i think UE has a command for this too

crenellated lmao

[ocean hollow]

draft article i'm writing on specifically how AI will kill us https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/draft/preview/7242671479815897088/

[odd gulch]

speaking of linkedin....

https://techcrunch.com/2024/09/18/linkedin-scraped-user-data-for-training-before-updating-its-terms-of-service/

if you have a linkedin, might wanna opt out of the AI collection even though they probably already scraped our data

[ocean hollow]

i'm really starting to hate all of these companies

i'm sorry, but i own an AI company and some, probably important, patents in AI. i would never do this bullshit

[dense thunder]

that’s sort of the problem, right? users are customers. customers mean revenue. milk it for all you can - ads. Subscriptions. information on the individual. now it’s just raw data itself to feed into training data since that itself is worth money

it’s gross

[narrow wren]

He is in this discord

[ocean hollow]

it is!

oh he actually is

@barren coral hi! we're pulling Jedi Survivor apart. you're probably sick to death of it by now, but we know a lot about why it's broken (19,000 shaders, audio hitches, garbage collection hitches, shadow hitches, and manually sideloading assets). it's mostly fixable, I think

[barren coral]

Oh yeah? How exactly can you fix the shaders issue or the other hitches?

Would love to know how

[barren coral]

@ocean hollow

[ocean hollow]

for the shaders the problem is there are unique debug IDs in every single shader (in the cooked game), so Unreal is treating them all as separate shaders even though they're identical. ShortFuse and i are talking about either him stripping them out in flight using RenoDX, or i'll modify the packed files. either way, the shaders need to be re-signed after the debug IDs are removed, but i think ShortFuse has worked out how to do that. i think the ideal will be repacking the into a mod (i suspect there are only actually around 400 shaders)...

the issue is for them to be batch initialized in-game, with 19,000 shaders it takes about 5 seconds at 60 fps to initialize them all

the shadows and audio are fixed in this WIP mod (i'm still testing)... the issues were two: 1) unbuilt shadows were being drawn (they're really expensive), and 2) preshadows weren't being used. preshadows draw shadows at very low-res for a few frames while the actual shadows render, and help prevent pop-ins and stutters.

(vanilla values are in brackets)

audio seems to be working better... audio is a blocking asset when streaming because it needs to sync with video, SFX, speech, etc. most of the settings were set to UE 4's defaults, many of which were probably decided around 2015 when UE4 was released. i don't think these issues are necessarily the faults of game devs — UE has a lot of legacy defaults that cause problems like this, not just in Survivor.

shall i continue? 😊 i don't want to bore you...

[ocean hollow]

keep in mind with the mod, "Epic" actually extends draw distances a little. if you want to compare to vanilla, use "High" graphics settings in-game. if you want better visuals (especially shadows and vegetation), try Epic.

also it's nice to meet you 😊

[ocean hollow]

for the benefit of others, v4.2.2

• Fixed low FPS problem of previous test version
• With DLSS disabled the mod will use TAA upsampling, which we saw screenshot comparisons of here #1236636890543689759 message
• If you want to force DLAA you can use the command r.ngx.dlaa.enable 1 in console... some of the assets look significantly better with DLAA than any other mode
• I still recommend upgrading DLSS itself, and Oodle (here https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/18KXSFi5EJXK7xp_P7tX4jTtBodMVJqoY?usp=drive_link)

[jovial patio]

what about these? should we use these and where do we put them if so?

[ocean hollow]

no, sorry they're for ShortFuse 😊

[jovial patio]

ok cool thanks

[sturdy fractal]

11214 shaders out of 18787 are unique. the rest are duplicated just from the debug name.

that doesn't include some shaders that are 500kb in llvm, and the only difference is one number

that's just raw comparison of the llvm without the comments

[jovial patio]

so ~7573 duplicates

[sturdy fractal]

here's an example of one of the Niagara shaders (particle fx) being basically identical, but differs by one value. it's 500KB diassembled. https://www.diffchecker.com/U5zdS46X/ (line 9410)

[sturdy fractal]

total 18786
unique 11213
duplicated 1063
duplicates 7573

1063 shaders that should be unique, but has over 7x duplicates due to the debug name

0x02D42BF8.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 103
0x04BC6CCF.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 108
0x0084C71A.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 109
0x03349E91.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 110
0x00972692.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 112
0x0676B2FD.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 117
0x03937C98.cso.llvm 136
0x0CF54B25.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 140
0x019FA0FB.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 162
0x002CC104.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 254
0x009160F7.cso.llvm 289
0x00B6F5A0.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 355
0x004C1A2E.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 479
0x0037312A.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 718
total 18786
unique 11213
duplicated 1063
duplicates 7573
avg 7.12
max 718

vertex shader thrashing. hmm

didn't consider that

fresh run:```cpp
0x02D42BF8.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 103
0x00731098.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 104
0x04BC6CCF.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 109
0x0084C71A.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 112
0x03349E91.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 114
0x00972692.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 115
0x0676B2FD.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 123
0x03937C98.ps_6_1.cso.llvm 136
0x0CF54B25.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 145
0x019FA0FB.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 166
0x002CC104.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 262
0x009160F7.ps_6_1.cso.llvm 289
0x00B6F5A0.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 373
0x004C1A2E.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 493
0x0037312A.vs_6_0.cso.llvm 740
total 19109
unique 11343
duplicated 1100
duplicates 7766
avg 7.06
max 740

40.64% of shaders are duplicates

[jovial patio]

nuke em from orbit shortfuse, it's the only way to be sure!

[sturdy fractal]

i'm not even doing hull or domain shaders either. the renodx devkit is geared towards replacement

[sturdy fractal]

@jovial patio wanna test something?

[jovial patio]

sure

[sturdy fractal]

dump this in C:\Program Files\EA Games\Jedi Survivor\SwGame\Binaries\Win64 (with reshade with addons)

not sure it'll do anything, but it essentially makes all the duplicates the same as the original. hopefully DX12 is smart enough to notice

you might have to force shader recompilation (not how to trigger than in UE)

[jovial patio]

i dont know how to trigger that either

i will try without sammifix?

[sturdy fractal]

sure. just want to know if anything is measurably different

it replaced 3000 shaders for me at least

3815

(reshade.log will obnoxiously bloat up)

[jovial patio]

for reference, getting 90ish fps sammi fix, epic settings, rt off, 3840x2160

now to try

[sturdy fractal]

this is more to fix stutter from shader cache trashing than a flat fps boost

honestly, there should be no real negative here afaik. i'm just forcing all the duplicates to be identical. maybe DX cache will avoid making dupes in memory

[jovial patio]

Hmm I can't seem to get the addon to load

[sturdy fractal]

are you using reshade with addons?

[jovial patio]

Yeah

[sturdy fractal]

send the log?

[jovial patio]

dm'ing

[sturdy fractal]

weird. i have this old one and it loads

[jovial patio]

seems like i get 95-100fps with dlss quality, epic, rt off, reshade + your addon, no sk
was getting 90fps with sammifix + sk so i'd say like a 5fps improvement overall

[lusty dock]

reinstalling the driver is the fastest if you can't find the shader files

[ocean hollow]

how do you mean thrashing?

[ocean hollow]

what are they multiplying here? (on my phone)

wouldn't you ideally separate those small changes into a separate shader 🤔

[ocean hollow]

you're a magician 😂❤️

[ocean hollow]

well the timing changes I made in 4.2.2 are still trying to compensate for shader thrashing, so I can now try and tune for caching. hopefully this gives a few more gains

the main limitation I'm having arm @sturdy fractal is RHI and GT are really stable, but draw calls are going from 14ms to 28ms. I've been able to improve this to 14ms ~ 22ms by optimizing assets and LODs, but my feeling is the remaining fluctuation is due to some problem on the RHI (parallelism going wide or something) causing draws to explode

lmk if you have any ideas. I need to do some frame analyses

oh! can I run this on the flat shader ucache files? it would be ideal if we can just pack the fixes into a mod

[sturdy fractal]

import { open, readdir, stat } from 'node:fs/promises';

const files = await readdir('.');
const hashmap = new Map();
const scriptLines = [];

let total = 0;
for (const filename of files) {
  if (!filename.endsWith('llvm')) continue;
  total++;
  const file = await open(filename);
  const dataLines = [];
  for await (const line of file.readLines()) {
    if (line.startsWith(';')) continue;
    dataLines.push(line);
  }
  const data = dataLines.join('\n');
  // console.log(filename, dataLines.length, ' lines');
  if (hashmap.has(data)) {
    const info = hashmap.get(data);
    info.duplicates.push(filename);
    const scriptLine = `copy dump\\${info.filename.slice(0, -5)} load\\${filename.slice(0, 10)}.cso`;
    console.log(scriptLine);
    scriptLines.push(scriptLine);
    // console.warn(filename, 'is a duplicate of', info.filename);
  } else {
    hashmap.set(data, {
      filename,
      duplicates: [],
      size: (await stat(filename)).size,
    });
  }
}

let duplicated = 0;
let duplicates = 0;
const infos = [...hashmap.values()];
infos.sort((a, b) => a.duplicates.length - b.duplicates.length);
for (const info of infos) {
  if (info.duplicates.length === 0) continue;
  duplicated++;
  duplicates += info.duplicates.length;
}

for (const line of scriptLines) {
  console.log(line);
}

console.log('total', total);
console.log('unique', hashmap.size);
console.log('duplicated', duplicated);
console.log('duplicates', duplicates);
console.log('avg', (duplicates / duplicated).toFixed(2));
console.log('max', infos.at(-1).duplicates.length);

this is what i was running. a script generator to copy the .cso files to \load and then use shader_replace.addon64 to load them. it hashes then by llvm data (stripping the comments) and then compares. if first, add to hash map. if not first, add to copy script.

copy dump\0x08BE3B7B.vs_6_0.cso load\0x878D0744.cso
copy dump\0x10856735.vs_6_0.cso load\0x879B6CFD.cso
copy dump\0x5F2D8A03.vs_6_0.cso load\0x87A06935.cso
copy dump\0x00972692.vs_6_0.cso load\0x87A56107.cso
copy dump\0x004C1A2E.vs_6_0.cso load\0x87B36D6A.cso

[sturdy fractal]

thrashing is likely how you understand it already. basically, the shader cache is likely getting full and it's unloading and loading others (hitching). if 40% of shaders are a waste, that's going to be hit. in theory of course. i'm not able to test if actually removing all duplicates this way is helping

[rough moss]

As someone from Alabama I woud’ve preferred a Mississippi joke. 😂

[ocean hollow]

ty

[sturdy fractal]

i also am working off my already-designed dump process ```cmd
SET $folder=C:\Program Files\EA Games\Jedi Survivor\SwGame\Binaries\Win64\renodx-dev\dump

@echo off
FOR /f %%G IN ('dir /b /o:n "%$folder%*.cso" ') DO (call :decompile %%G)

GOTO :eof

:decompile
SETLOCAL
SET $file=%1

.\bin\dxc.exe -dumpbin "%$folder%%$file%" > "%$folder%%$file%.llvm"

[ocean hollow]

okay, as i thought. well increasing the PSO Cache size from 50 to 100 was one of the biggest improvements to PSO thrashing, so that's consistent

[sturdy fractal]

the csos i dump are likely the same as the ones in archive, just not sure how to unpack and repack them. i'm just using the llvm to find duplicates (text is easier). then all the duplicates are then remaped to the first matching llvm (debug name and all)

[ocean hollow]

unfortunately increasing to 150, Survivor seems to start to have memory management problems. it can possibly be pushed to 120, but it's diminishing returns (the latest v4.2.2 uses 100 PSOs)

i can also change PSO eviction

[ocean hollow]

i can work this out. i just have to set up a Node.js environment, i've been putting it off 😄

or convert the code to C

... i wonder what would happen if you changed those multiplications to all be the same? 😄

$5 says we won't notice any difference lol

[sturdy fractal]

https://nvm.sh/ if you're on linux. windows is rough. just use the official installer

i do a lot of scrap code on chrome itself. then dump it into a js file

[ocean hollow]

yes that's what i've been putting off. i've been herming and hawing about which distro i go back to (cachyOS, nobara, Fedora..........)

what distro are you on?

[sturdy fractal]

windows with ubuntu as wsl

most my servers are amazon AMI

[ocean hollow]

i suppose that's an option

mm, same, AWS AMI

[sturdy fractal]

i do nodejs+web so 99% of code i write is JS, and usually front and backend is shared structure. only recently (re)picked up C++ for RenoDX.

[ocean hollow]

ty. i have to set up the dev environ for work too, which is all Node, NVM, etc.

[ocean hollow]

nice! that's our stack too, React on front end

what do you do for work?

this is me https://licorice.ai

also not helping is the PSO disk cache (D3D12.PSO.DiskCache) is broken in this UE build

[jovial patio]

i hope they have switched to ue5 for the next game purely due the fact the defaults ootb are probably better lol

[ocean hollow]

from what i saw in robocop they absolutely are

[sturdy fractal]

custom solutions for small business. most of it is coding, but not everything . this is the current framework i'm using for frontend: https://clshortfuse.github.io/materialdesignweb/

[ocean hollow]

well that's super cool

almost all of our UI is bespoke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDoJAuRVh-k (still material, but we will likely get rid of it)

[rocky hemlock]

I can't get this to load either, getting error 126
IIRC this is because addon is build as debug and not release

[sturdy fractal]

#1204850050530807838 message

[rocky hemlock]

That did the trick

[dense thunder]

have we gauged how much the shader rework helps in terms of putting the game towards further stability?

i should probably tryi t

reshade and then the download + the link from cp2077?

[sturdy fractal]

with working addon

[sturdy fractal]

all i've seen is @jovial patio say a ~4-5% fps boost

[dense thunder]

thanks!

[sturdy fractal]

that rar should be smaller. literally has duplicates and rar paginates them to be larger than the actually source for some files

reminds me http://vanilla-js.com/

yep

7zip of rar comes out to < 7MB. 7zip manually is 9.21mb. weird

7zip ultra

[sturdy fractal]

@rocky hemlock @dense thunder any noticeable difference?

[rocky hemlock]

Koboh run might be a smoother, but I haven't done direct comparison so it might be placebo

So I guess nothing noticeable on my end

[sturdy fractal]

Thanks. it's hard to gauge. In the least, nothing should be worse. This replacement method isn't as aggressive as RenoDX which really prioritizes failproof replacement.

In theory, there's less hitching and per frame it'll "cache miss" less if it ever gets to the point that in one frame there are not enough shaders in cache to keep up.

[jovial patio]

i wonder if there will be any future patches or if this "is it"

[ocean hollow]

i think it will be 'it' unless people complain a lot

i'll try and tune shader build frame timing with the replaced shaders, i have to get some work done

[rough moss]

I agree. Doubt there will be anymore patches, maybe if they have to patch the last gen console games.

[ocean hollow]

https://tenor.com/vgt6yuPl4VG.gif

[dense thunder]

haven’t yet. Been sick in bed unfortunately. that said I want to do a before and after with cap frameX and see the frame time graph

Which I’ll do when I get time at the desk

[ocean hollow]

hugs feel better

hands you ginger honey lemon tea

[magic harbor]

What are the recommended HDR settings? Cant seem to find it

[rocky hemlock]

Most people here seem to like 0/50

18/30 will look similar but with a bit brighter in the midtones

[gentle forge]

https://tenor.com/view/darth-vader-vader-star-wars-thumbs-up-thumb-gif-9416360770889144731

[jovial patio]

bad peformance gets worse 💀 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-amecmg_O_U

[ocean hollow]

how do these people not know about expanded occlusion boxes!?

the white flashes is a single command to fix

[indigo timber]

17 months to patch even some of the more egregious issues - and I agree, probably no further patches coming. The team working on this game knows how to make things function, but they don’t seem to know how to do much in an optimal way.

[ocean hollow]

https://www.techpowerup.com/326819/microsoft-directx-12-shifts-to-spir-v-as-default-interchange-format

[ocean hollow]

yeah...

Fallen Order was fixable... but because of how they've built assets in Survivor it's much much harder. if i had the source code and several weeks i could do it

it's the same sequence many games follow:

1. leave UE's default settings
2. build game with some bad decisions
3. have performance problems
4. try to fix the symptoms

what needs to happen is to go back and undo the root causes of the performance problems. this is called "technical debt". the studios don't want to spend the time to address technical debt

[jovial patio]

Well they should. It's got the name star wars attached to it. Amazing Disney isn't getting pissed at them although I guess they don't really care.

[ocean hollow]

yet they spend chronic time patching and re-patching, and managing public perception (or damage control). it's a false economy. it's far more productive to even launch the game, then remove technical debt and just do a few great patches

none of those people will get pissed as long as there's profit..

[gentle forge]

its basically the evil star wars corpo's shitting on the ppl and we few are the resistance trying to perfect HDR lol

[jovial patio]

Peformance* but yes

The fact they didn't fix the animation stutter in the last patch says it all really

[indigo timber]

I wonder if to your thought Disney doesn't put any pressure on EA/Respawn because the consoles are handling it better than the PC version. If you consider only the PC audience doing most of the screaming that Survivor is junk, then EA can assure Disney "PC players don't make or break the numbers on Jedi games, as long as we don't get a revolt from the PS5/XBX crowd, we're good".

[quiet oriole]

Don't know that to be true though... remember, EA initially had exclusive Star Wars game license and Disney took that exclusivity deal away after the Battlefield debacle

[quiet oriole]

But yeah, this could be true, but who knows...

[sturdy fractal]

i don't PC performance is of any importance to publishers

i think it's just free/extra money

[indigo timber]

Agreed, guessing without numbers or other factors that influence it.

But that always does seem to be the presumption…PC as an afterthought if the game is multiplatform

[sturdy fractal]

"performance is bad on pc" "it do be that way" and that's it. they move along

[indigo timber]

Space Marine 2 had noticeable oversights for PC players at launch, if we compare the game’s Steam peak player count against their recent celebrating of 2 million copies sold, PC would seem to only represent 1/10th of the game’s audience.

[sturdy fractal]

retention means nothing vs sales

unless you're trying to make money off DLC

[quiet oriole]

Noticeable oversights? To my knowledge it looks good, only being a bit CPU-limited...

No major problems to my knowledge

[indigo timber]

No ultrawide support, no FOV adjustment (which the devs have said they don’t want to implement already), it’s got some parts that aren’t great for optimization, even though it’s not the most demanding game out there.

Not issues so much, but these are things that are known quantities to a PC game. Leaving them out is overlooking that those matter to that audience.

[sturdy fractal]

games make most of the their money in the initial sales period. the rest is extra income. for small devs, it more important to try to retain good will and make money to finance their next projects. AAA companies don't. they usually get a pretty good profit in the first wave and that has little bearing whether they'll stay in business or make another one. companies like EA know that some IPs just sell, period. Star Wars is one of them.

[indigo timber]

Definitely. BF2042 might be bringing about major changes, and it might not have sold like EA wanted, doesn’t mean the devout fans of BF rejected it.

Business influences aside though, I feel like Jedi’s issues are experience destroying to the core because it’s an action melee game. You don’t want animation jank or CPU stalls or HLOD pop-ins hosing you when you’re trying to be precise with parries and Force throws and such.

[sturdy fractal]

the shader hitch that i tried to fix might not be a thing because of the way consoles optimize shaders. at the same time, PC probably has more options that console gamers don't get to enable (and thus break their gameplay).

thinking aloud, a lot of complaints about Unreal performance are usually geared towards their PC implementation

[indigo timber]

I think we’ve seen that pattern quite a bit. Some games louder than others. But it’s hard to come across a UE4+ game that hasn’t had at least a guide or if not a mod intended to make for better performance.

[jovial patio]

have you seen the xbox one version? it's worse, disney clearly just don't care

[indigo timber]

Xbox One like prior gen or did you mean Also series S/X?

[jovial patio]

prior gen

[indigo timber]

Oh yeah, I’d expect that almost. Fallen Order on the PS5 kinda made me envious after the patch they put out for it some time after release. It seems to handle the game very well, excluding the downgrade in fidelity you’ll get there. PC version doesn’t play like that out of the box for sure.

[sturdy fractal]

xbox is directx after all. i'd imagine simliar bugs

[rough moss]

I don’t think Disney has as much influence on the release as EA does, especially after the director went on IGN and said he was allowed another month or so to work on the game and turned it down. I’m sure they had like a Q2 window or something to adhere to but I’d bet EA board is making the final call on wrapping up for release.

I just feel bad for the people that work on these games and put so much time in that their work won’t be enjoyed or seen in the best light. The amount of people that work on AAA games these days and the time put in is crazy. I’m bouncing between Gotham Knights and Suicide Squad now and just looking at the assets used I think, I bet the people working on this wish that a better game was being used for this stuff.

[indigo timber]

I feel that way about the Jedi games, they are a great showcase of handcrafted world building. Maybe not the greatest ever, but definitely good.

[sturdy fractal]

i think to work in this industry and keep your sanity you desensitize to rushed stuff. a good studio progressively gets better and carries their toolchain (iteration). others are just doing it as a stepping stone to end up working for a studio that knows that they're doing.

it doesn't help that graphics pipelines have basically reinvented themselves over and over

I'm sure some studios' mindset is: "We don't make games. We make money."

[indigo timber]

I believe Bobby Kotick almost said that word for word once.

[jovial patio]

Should be a crime to make a game look this good and then have it perform like garbage

[sturdy fractal]

aka: web designers vs web developers

[jovial patio]

Ruins the artistry tbh

[sturdy fractal]

with all our visual mods we try to get to the "artistic vision". most problems we reason are bad/poor implementation of the artistic vision. staying strictly vanilla isn't the point. it's trying to understand what the intent once and reproduce it better.

or, in most of my mods, what an HDR representation/transfer of the the artistic vision would look like

[jovial patio]

Sure but I was talking about poor performance ruining artistry.

[sturdy fractal]

in my case i've engrained into myself "i'm not here to make artistic decisions. it just need to deliver what is asked." it's better to be a specialist in that regard. maybe that mindset isn't as common. or maybe they just hired way too many junior devs that don't know what they're doing.

[ocean hollow]

unless you have honour

[ocean hollow]

yes this is true also. with sensitivity to devs, it can be a very harsh industry

[ocean hollow]

yes this... we had a dev who just did tickets without asking questions, which in a team of 3 is not okay. he didn't last more than a few months

but i can see why people get that way

[ocean hollow]

let's see how badly we can crash Survivor today

LowLevelFatalError [File:Unknown] [Line: 686] hr failed at D:/depot/r8branches/r8release/Engine/Source/Runtime/D3D12RHI/Private/Windows/WindowsD3D12Viewport.cpp:262 with error DXGI_ERROR_UNSUPPORTED could be worse lol

stupid things try # 2

hmm okay that's an improvement

trying to start the game with different RHIs lol

umm hello did we just start with SM6

lol wtf is this frame spike every second

• May have enabled shader model 6 ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[rough moss]

@ocean hollow getting those frametime spikes with that pak? Can test in a few

[ocean hollow]

no that was me doing something stupid lol. though it is weird that it happens. I set the foreground shader batch size to 10000 😂

but it was set to run with 1.0 Ms per frame. at least I thought he batch time was in ms. and those spikes happened every second and now idk what to think

that pak is configured to use SM6 though. whether it's working or not idk. and also the stupid eye bug is back. idk how!! I'll fix it tomorrow 😭

lmao. just make any shit up

🤦‍♀️

O M G

r.ShaderPipelineCache.BatchTime | Float | 4.000000 | 0x4000020 (RenderThreadSafe, SetBySystemSettingsIni)
        The target time (in ms) to spend precompiling each frame when compiling takes priority or 0.0 to disable. When precompiling is faster the batch size will grow and when slower will shrink to attempt to occupy the full amount. Defaults to 16.0 (max. ms per-frame of precompilation).

I knew I was right. I'm going to punch Sam Altman when I see him 😂

[rough moss]

chatgpt for UE cvars is smart. I should use that.

[ocean hollow]

just be aware it will make up some of it 😂

there is no way to prevent errors in neural networks

[quiet oriole]

ChatGPT hallucinates half of its answers... it's basically always unrealiable

[rocky hemlock]

Literally

52% accuracy

https://help.kagi.com/kagi/ai/llm-benchmark.html

[quiet oriole]

literally half of the time... but people actively pop a stiffy for it everywhere and think it is the future

https://tenor.com/view/greys-anatomy-miranda-bailey-the-stupidity-of-the-human-race-human-race-stupidity-gif-24544230

[indigo timber]

You could argue AI models are a good representation of how full of shit people are - half the time they aren't saying anything that makes sense or is correct. At least. 🙂

[quiet oriole]

While pessimistic, technically true haha

People are bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling 😛

[indigo timber]

Gotta remember that one, I like it

[quiet oriole]

Nicked it from Scrubs

[jovial patio]

As a fellow human, I concur

[ocean hollow]

this is fantastic, ty, I actually need this for a dissertation I'm writing on neural network. I wrote a provisional patent in 2019 for a method to sidestep the neural network error rate ("top-5" or "top-1 error rate") and many people seem surprised when I describe LLMs as 1) grossly inaccurate and 2) grossly inefficient (power/cost vs. output). my model sidesteps both of these problems, and I'm trying to raise investment to finish building it

[rocky hemlock]

Glad to be of service

[ocean hollow]

I know it's so tiring. also they're debating whether it's conscious. no, it's not at all conscious. biological organisms (even plants) have quantum microtubules. I agree 100% with Roger Penrose et al's orchestrated objective reduction theory that consciousness is a quantum effect. LLMs having zero (intentional) quantum component therefore have zero consciousness.

ty KoKlutz really, huge help rn. getting all the data to swim against the stupid river of LLMs has been hard work! 😂

[quiet oriole]

Agree

[indigo timber]

Social media was supposed to be the next great evolution in human communication and interaction, now it’s just an electronic version of being at the bar drunk and yelling. It does have positives, but the hurricanes of shit it brings overshadow that.

[ocean hollow]

with all evolution/growth/development there is adversity. they are two sides of the same thing

we will reach a point where our minds connect and we can share our very ideas, dreams, emotions, and memories directly

however this will come with its own adversity that we will need to learn to address

if you think about it, every time you have developed or grown as a person, it has been accompanied by depression, frustration, or confusion. they are two sides to the same thing and inseparable

[ocean hollow]

are the EA auth servers offline?

[ocean hollow]

does anyone know how to launch the game without stupid EA? i'm trying to force it to run on Vulkan/Proton

right! sammi mad!

[indigo timber]

Offline mode on the launcher won’t do it?

[ocean hollow]

i couldn't find an offline mode

[indigo timber]

The menu on the top left, should have a go offline option

[ocean hollow]

hmm looking

[indigo timber]

Is having it use Vulkan an option they left in the game? Only way I knew how to do that was a mess of DXVK and NVAPI to convert D3D12 to VK

[ocean hollow]

no im adding it back into the game

you can change the config files to configure UE for Vulkan, but it will depend if plugins etc. have everything they need to work with Vulkan/Proton translation layers

"I think"

I can ask GloriousEggroll

dammit I tried to disable all the EA plugins (launcher and networking) but it's still launching somehow

[indigo timber]

That would be interesting. DXVK-ASYNC was the next best thing to your mod on Fallen Order. Stopped most of the stalls that disrupted the frametimes.

[ocean hollow]

yes and there's newer versions of dxvk now

i think they're all async 🤔

😠 this is what i was worried about

muahahaha

[sturdy fractal]

i got a 4060 laptop, so might be able to mod this game now (for the HDR)

[ocean hollow]

oh yay!!

i just got it running under Vulkan lol

[indigo timber]

There’s still separate repos. DXVK continues to be updated and the person originally doing ASYNC stopped. Someone else took it over and it’s now called gpla-async

[ocean hollow]

it will take a while to launch and look like it's doing nothing

[ocean hollow]

are you sure? from what i read async was tentatively planned for DXVK but then was mainlined into it

[ocean hollow]

i've instructed this to run under shader model 6, but no idea what it's actually running as

[indigo timber]

The async might be part of DXVK now but there are at least some things different in gpla

[ocean hollow]

1500 fps while loading lmao

[ocean hollow]

ah okay 🤔

interesting lol

[indigo timber]

https://gitlab.com/Ph42oN/dxvk-gplasync

[ocean hollow]

oh nice ty

that looks slightly newer too!

Unhandled Exception: EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION reading address 0x0000000000000000 oopsies lol

i did disable a bunch of Epic and EA plugins in v4.2.4 but it shouldn't be important

darn i can't inject UUU

you may want this @indigo timber in case you haven't seen

[indigo timber]

Thank you so much.

[ocean hollow]

trying to get DLSS working

yw 😊

hmm might have to hack this in too

@sturdy fractal should i rename the dxgi.dll for DXVK or reshade? do you know off hand what i can rename it to?

[sturdy fractal]

i think reshade works as d3d12.dll i don't have the information on hand, but there's some naming scheme you can do to make SpecialK and Reshade work together. i'd imagine it's similar here as well

[ocean hollow]

v4.2.5

• Disabled background shader processing to let DXVK handle it all

[ocean hollow]

mm i need d3d12.dll as well. i have a feeling nvngx.dll will work. i'll try some things 😊

[indigo timber]

If you’re using DXVK and you setup ReShade to install on Vulkan, I don’t think it bothers with DXGI.

At least, I recall that when using it on DX11. I am not sure if you’re needing to do anything special for D3D12. DXVK wasn’t intended for that.

[ocean hollow]

okay let's see if JediSurvivor.exe is trying to open nvngx*.dll files

interesting

DXVK-NVAPI: This implementation provides entry points for supporting NVIDIA-related technologies, including adapter information querying from Vulkan. However, it does not include DLSS support.

lmao this game

[rough moss]

so you’re attempting to natively implement Vulkan or trying to get the game to function better with DXVK?

[ocean hollow]

yes just trying it! who knows, it can't be any worse 😂

[jovial patio]

i believe it can lol

[bold geyser]

Yes DXVK Async works differently to mainline DXVK and I believe you need to enable the correct things in dxvk.conf for it to async. But documentation is terrible

https://youtu.be/8PP7Zrp2wN8

Great vid testing the differences

[rocky hemlock]

I've been told that DXVK Async is broken on NV

[bold geyser]

I don't think so

Or not completely broken anyway

See video above, there are measurable differences between each

[indigo timber]

I wonder if Oakenglass’ results had been more dramatic if he had tested on Kashyyyk instead of Bracca. While you can clearly still see a difference here, Bracca always felt like it was optimized better because it’s the opening level. The early part of Kashyyyk stutters and stalls terribly.

[narrow wren]

On windows yes

And we're talking about gplasync

[bold geyser]

Can I read about that anywhere?

[narrow wren]

I mean

There isn't anything to read about

I've tried it before on two nv machines

It causes massive stutter and pop in for some reason

[bold geyser]

The video above shows DXVK 2.3 vanilla = 87 stutters. GPL Async = 26 stutters.

[narrow wren]

Regular gpl is the move here if you want to use dxvk

[bold geyser]

That looks it's working to me

[narrow wren]

Welp idk

Maybe it's only broken on dx9

But whatever most of the time regular gpl will be fine

Shader comp stutter is mainly an issue with dx12 games anyway

[bold geyser]

Most of the time yeah, GPL Async can be good to try with the DX11 games that do have shader compilation stutter like fallen order

[ocean hollow]

it seems to run a lot worse than the mainline 2.4 dxvk for me

I think there's still audio hitches in the game but trying to work out why

[ocean hollow]

idk if I'd be so sure... usually changes from one dxvk point release to the next are pretty major or even architectural. it's pretty actively developed not at all small incremental updates form what I've seen

[indigo timber]

It was (and is) a wonderful thing in the DX11 or less world. AC Origins/Odyssey were much smoother with it, that was when I first came across it.

[bold geyser]

You can look at the change logs, I don't think there were major changes in 2.4

[ocean hollow]

mostly bugs by the looks

though i'm not clear what was changed under Linux upstream

[ocean hollow]

https://youtube.com/shorts/BNj4ECFr2Xg

[indigo timber]

What I find amazing anymore is often the PC release of a given game will boast "unlocked framerates" and then because of whatever state its optimization is in you often have to lock the framerate anyway to keep the experience stable. 🤣

[ocean hollow]

yes.... lol

marketing...|.......^...........science

[ocean hollow]

bugger i just lost 2 hours of play lol

[indigo timber]

Had that happen when I first got to Koboh. If you don’t go straight towards town and hit the other meditation point and then you die, you start back at the meditation point you stopped at right before the big vista reveal. I lost a good hour of roaming progress due to that.

[ocean hollow]

that's where I was! I was there OCD 100%ing stuff 😭

[rocky hemlock]

This is one of the reasons I dislike games weaponising OCD / fomo

[ocean hollow]

yes I can see that. but with this game I am actually enjoying myself. until device driver hung lol

actually even with the Witcher games which I love, I feel like there's a lot of wasted map traversal and fetch quests. I don't feel that with Jedi. I'm just relaxing wandering 'round the maps. whereas Skellige made me actually mad

[deep sonnet]

Hey Sam. Did you play Outlaws? I think you'll like it.

[narrow spruce]

I still usually OCD whenever I am exploring in Jedi Survivor, I feel like I need to see everything and really search for any secrets. I feel like the discovery factor is really strong in Jedi, and it's actually pretty fun and relaxing like you said to just explore. It helps that the world and characters are interesting, too!

[ocean hollow]

Respawn..... you could do this....

or you could just change this ?