▫️Cyberpunk 2077

[true saffron]

The EmitterGroupAreaSettings specifically.

[whole girder]

i would assume it's a particle emitter 🤔

[true saffron]

I just have no idea what the particles would be. 😄

[whole girder]

that's an env or weather? ... i'm not sure where particles are used in there 🤔

[true saffron]

Weather env.

It's foggy.

[whole girder]

no me either!

paper or debris...? wind effects...?

sosuine might know

do you know him or want me to ask?

[true saffron]

It's not that urgent. I just removed it for now and made no visual difference. 😛

Should you happen to bring it up in conversation at some point, it would be nice to know, but don't go out of your way to look into it.

[whole girder]

they may not actually be used

i do remember sosuine had some kind of god rays in hiw Alternative Weather mod, but they looked 100% like voxels to me, not particles

... my money is on debris ... i think debris (paper etc) is triggered by the weather

you could look inside his new debris mod for confirmation

(the floating paper / bags is definitely particles)

[true saffron]

I guess I wouldn't have noticed then. I'm using my Trash Begone mod haha.

[true saffron]

Was there already a mod that removed those? 😬 I don't look into things when I have random ideas. I just make something.

[whole girder]

no!! i'm so sorry i was confusing your mod!

[true saffron]

Ohhh 😄

[whole girder]

you're so pure 😊

[true saffron]

I only use the particle remover because it looks weird with DLSS/RR.

[whole girder]

it really does

i'm experimenting with the variable rate shader settings, because that's exactly the kind of thing VRS is supposed to fix

my understanding is VRS looks at motion vectors and if they are high, it uses more/faster rays for that part of the frustum

[true saffron]

Oh, interesting! Would it still leave some artifacts before it's initially able to calculate the motion?

[whole girder]

(but i'm not convinced it's properly integrated with path tracing)

maybe a single frame... ?

and also keep in mind motion vectors can be calculated slightly off scene ... in most (good) game engines, all meshes have an imaginary box around them that's slightly bigger than the mesh, so as it comes into view, the occlusion system knows to start rendering it

when you play unreal games and there is white flashing of meshes at the edge of the screen as they come into view, it's because the devs don't know how to use unreal

(***cough Jedi cough hogwarts)

[true saffron]

😄 I guess I haven't really looked that closely at those specific things but, especially when you're trying to tweak them, they do leave an impression on the overall visuals.

[whole girder]

(so basically motion vectors should start as soon as the larger mesh box touches the view frustum)

oh absolutely

there is a LOT CP does correctly

they are very knowledgeable. as much shit as people give them, CDPR really know what they're doing

their problems are process & testing problems

[true saffron]

Plus they have the full backing of Nvidia, I'd assume. It's basically an Nvidia showcase.

[whole girder]

in unreal you need to set r.ExpandAllOcclusionTestedBBoxesAmount ; Amount to expand all occlusion test bounds by

tbh though, these are things Epic should set for people. unreal has a lot of very dumb (***cough WRONG cough) default settings

[whole girder]

yes exactly!

but to my eyes, they have also very much trusted what nvidia have said "here, use this!" without playing with it too much

[south verge]

@whole girder I'm getting fog pop in, about 100m out. Any suggestions on how to fix?

[whole girder]

on the new ultra fog?

[south verge]

Yep

[whole girder]

take a phone shot?

[south verge]

Wondering if its just a mix of weather and time of day thats giving issues

Game just crashed of course, will see if I can get you an example

[whole girder]

oh crap 😂

okay, what am i doing wrong ... i created this neutral (Davinci auto) LUT, which works perfectly for me.

1. fiddled in reshade
2. captured the reshade as a PNG LUT from Lightroom
3. converted to cube
4. added the LUT to the neutral LUT in Fusion
5. *exported as PNG and converted to DDS in the usual way
6. *exported to Ultra Noir archive
7. everything is almost flat blue

it looks fine in fusion and in PNG ?

[south verge]

Notice the line, pushes forward while walking down the street

This occurred after setting weather to foggy then switching to deep blue. 6AM

[whole girder]

do you have a weather mod as well?

[south verge]

Will have to see if it pops up with other weathers

No weather mod

Just weathermancer

[whole girder]

in that scene there is no volumetric fog but there is a lot of distant fog

[true saffron]

Sorry to cut in here but would anyone happen to know which weather envparam is linked to this:

I've tried heavy clouds, heavy clouds new, etc. Nothing is working when I change those.

[whole girder]

could you try
GameOptions.SetBool("Developer/FeatureToggles","DistantVolFog",false)

[south verge]

So more of a vanilla issue then?

[true saffron]

Well, distant fog is just a large translucent plane at X distance from player.

It's going to move with you.

[south verge]

I can live with it, just wasn't sure if it was a bug with ultra +

[whole girder]

yes ... but i thought i'd moved it to between 500 to 1000 metres away. that looks like about 100 metres

[south verge]

That's what I was wondering

[whole girder]

it could be. ultra+ should turn off distant volumetric fog entirely, but the command above will check

(really, ultra fog is designed to be used with ultra+)

[south verge]

With the 2.1 version you posted here earlier it seems volfog was set to true. That was probably it.

actually, volfog was set to true but distantvolfog was false. So idk lol

It's whatever, rarely see full on fog anyway lol

[whole girder]

volfog should be true but distvolfog should be false

[whole girder]

it's possibly a typo/ommission ultra fog, i'll check soon 😊

@true saffron do you know what i'm doing wrong with my lut?

[south verge]

Did you make sure you have it flipped? or not flipped? I had the same issue when I was experimenting with luts a few weeks ago

[true saffron]

Not unless I have access to your display feed. 😛

[whole girder]

what do you need to see?

[true saffron]

Oh, were you referring to past screenshots?

[whole girder]

no to this

[true saffron]

I thought you were going to post something.

[true saffron]

Ah, yes. Conversion aren't reliable. I would do your best to recreate the changes from Reshade into new nodes in Resolve. The colorspace game is a tough one and it gets messy when you use external sources.

[whole girder]

now my screen is completely black

i think it's just a wolvenkit import problem tbh

[true saffron]

Probably that the cube you imported wasn't converted to 3D.

Change the header parameters.

[whole girder]

it looks 3d to me 🤔

[true saffron]

Make sure that is 3D.

Best way to import is to make sure the DDS is the exact name as the file you want to replace, then click load settings in the import window before importing it (as long as the source file is in the same place in the folder structure).

[whole girder]

okay. yes it's identical file name and is set to 3d

but every time i import in wolvenkit something different happens

i'll try the load settings

[south verge]

NPC enjoying the new cig smoke

[whole girder]

it's looking a bit lumpy

?

that was a question ... phrased as a statement (wrapped in an enigma) 😂

[south verge]

Lumpy?? lmao

Hard to capture smoke in movement in a still 😉

[whole girder]

yes like ... the smoke doesn't look nice and smooth, it looks like little particles 🤔

@true saffron 😭

[south verge]

Looks great to me

[true saffron]

Oh, that looks like a vflip issue.

[south verge]

Like I said!

😉

[true saffron]

Do you have NVTT?

Just toggle the flip before converting.

[whole girder]

yes

oh really?

okay

i totally don't remember doing that for the neutral lut

[true saffron]

WK used to have a vflip option in it but has since been removed.

[true saffron]

Oh, that's odd.

[whole girder]

does this look right ?

[true saffron]

Yeah that is backwards.

[whole girder]

this is unflipped ... what i was originally using (that didn't work)

[true saffron]

Is this the LUT from Reshade or the combined one from Resolve?

[whole girder]

the combined one

[true saffron]

Ah ok, something went wrong in fusion then.

It's backwards, not flipped.

Can I see the Reshade LUT?

Send me the file, I mean.

[whole girder]

(left) is combined lut ... (right) is neutral lut

sure!

just the reshade component

[true saffron]

You need to flip last.

Put the change before it.

[whole girder]

(combined)

[true saffron]

Actually, I guess you don't need to.

I usually do my LUTs vertically so I'm still trying to figure out what's going on here. 😛

[whole girder]

(1) neutral .... (2) reshade only) ... (3) combined

[true saffron]

Those are flipped.

The problem is vflipping when you have an h LUT.

😛

[whole girder]

up/down or left/right ?

[true saffron]

Just set it to vertical and should resolve the problem.

[whole girder]

ehrmagherd 🤦‍♀️

[true saffron]

That's my NVTT preset, too.

[whole girder]

does this look right?

[true saffron]

Yes

[whole girder]

should i have that vflip in there?

[true saffron]

Yep

Then save that TGA and convert in NVTT with my preset. Should be good.

[whole girder]

hmm now idk if my original cube generated from reshade is inverted too

what do you use to convert to cube?

[true saffron]

I don't convert to cube, usually.

Maybe import it into WK and export as cube from there? 😅

[whole girder]

i think this looks correct now ... neutral vs mine

[whole girder]

rrghh i hate everything 😂

https://tenor.com/view/press-any-key-any-key-homer-simpson-the-simpsons-computer-gif-14827444

[true saffron]

Is yours more saturated?

[whole girder]

yes. like, a lot

😂

[true saffron]

Looks like it's working then. 🙂

[whole girder]

?

you didn't have highest quality in your preset

[true saffron]

Yeah, I tried with all of those settings and didn't notice a difference so I didn't bother.

You're talking about compression, right?

[whole girder]

yes

i mean tbh, there is very little difference in texture compressions for dds 7

(and oodle compression is crazy, as an aside)

well i've never seen that before

well the game is no longer broken but there's also no lut

[true saffron]

That's the nightly update that added cube support. 🙂

[whole girder]

ahhh

it will also directly load dds in there

it's working (left) ... but i now know my original neutral LUT wasn't working at all (right + reshade)

[whole girder]

actual neutral lut

wayyy different curve from arri

these should be working

[true saffron]

These are all my versions of Nova. 😅

Definitely not the horror vibes I get from the one above.

[whole girder]

haha yes

you've lifted all those

[true saffron]

Didn't lift. It's just AgX.

[whole girder]

horror vibes could be interesting lol

ah okay

arri looks ... kinda bad

[true saffron]

Did you convert to ACES?

[whole girder]

yes

[true saffron]

I guess it's just supposed to be dark. 😛

Unless you have any other ENV changes happening to exposure?

Oh it's your fog.

Removing vol fog makes it a lot darker.

[whole girder]

interesting

it's not with the vanilla LUT though

[true saffron]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[whole girder]

i know! 😂

[true saffron]

There are so many varibales at play, it's hard to pinpoint the one cause.

[whole girder]

yes exactly

[true saffron]

I'm trying to figure out why changing the sky dome color slightly will cause my game to look like a nuke went off.

[whole girder]

the davinci neutral lut (ACES) has a var wider histogram

[whole girder]

some of those values are suuuper sensitive

[whole girder]

@true saffron do you have a neutral AgX i can mod?

(idk wtf i did with the original lut - it looks great, but i can't recreate it 😂)

[true saffron]

Haha yeah that would be Nova Pure 2.2. 😛

Actually, AgX has some color shifting which is why I made supernova to color match.

I can get you a straight AgX LUT though. Will have to be in a bit, I'm just about to head out.

[whole girder]

supernova ❤️

that's so cool haha

no you're fine, no rush at all! i can also make it i just thought you might have one laying around

[true saffron]

@whole girder Hera yah go.

This is just a DCTL node with default AgX.

Well, it's LogC3 encoding with linear output.

[whole girder]

oh wow thank you!

[true saffron]

If you want the unadulterated version of AgX with an sRGB input instead of log, let me know.

It's really dark though.

Again, the magenta and greens are quite off with AgX so be forewarned. 😄

[gilded summit]

This is happening in vanilla, sammi's Ultrafog Full 1.0 fixes this

[whole girder]

yay i didn't break something for once 😂

[whole girder]

um. what did i fix? 😂

[whole girder]

also, why is fog so brightly backlit in RT/PT

it's not physically based, it's just "there is fog, therefore there's light!!"

[south verge]

Think its more of an HDR issue + env exposure changes

[whole girder]

no it's not... the fog isn't done in ray tracing or path tracing, it's done in raster and there's a "backlight" I'm pretty certain, that determines how bright it is

I think I really need to find a specific weather env and change the weather to it so I can work this out in detail

[south verge]

Gotcha. I just noticed fog isn't lit the same way in SDR. More natural looking

[whole girder]

yes I think this is why... they're not adjusting the backlight depending on hdr or sdr. it's the same for particle FX (smoke, gas, liquid nitrogen, steam, etc)

[gilded summit]

With PT enabled fog gets really ugly because there is a clear line visable on buildings and such wher the fog starts

your mod seems to fix that

[whole girder]

oh great. CyanideX told me how!

[gilded summit]

i quite like the fog with his ENV pure HDR, and the lastst nova lut for hdr

is this a cruel joke, or is the website not working correct for me?

[true saffron]

Hey @whole girder, do you happen to know which distant fog (near or far) the density and densitySecond are linked to? Or what they do?

[whole girder]

nope, that's the guide I've been following 😂

[whole girder]

I believe density second is the farthest one

[true saffron]

I tried setting one of them to 100 and the other to 0 and then swapped... same look. 😄

I don't know what I'm missing.

[whole girder]

yes I haven't done explicit testing

it looks like exponential height fog is implemented too

that could look amazing, I'm surprised no one has tried it

(if it works)

[true saffron]

What would it do?

[whole girder]

it gets denser towards the ground, like...

[true saffron]

Oh really?!

[whole girder]

ya

[true saffron]

That's what I want!

[whole girder]

rly

okay, hang on

[true saffron]

I was testing some things the other day. Looks kinda pretty but not useful for me.

[whole girder]

so the secondary height fog value is critical

see https://docs.unrealengine.com/5.3/en-US/exponential-height-fog-in-unreal-engine/ as a guide

[true saffron]

Can you be the one to mess with this first and then come to me when all the hard work is done? 😛

[whole girder]

from the settings I've seen in the env, I would expect you'd want to change height fog from 0.5 to maybe 1 or 2, and secondary from 0.5 to maybe 3 or 4

I'm totally guessing (but edumacated guesses)

hahah

I think we should just join forces at this point, it seems like we have similar goals

[true saffron]

Sounds like a plan! 😛

[whole girder]

the crowd would go wild 😂

okay, yay! 😊

[true saffron]

I'm doing overall weather states though, not just fog. I'm not a fan of the current pollution state so I'm tweaking the fog.

[whole girder]

all good, I'm just doing fog and particle fx, not weather

[true saffron]

Finally figured out that sun color alpha determines light/shadow intensity. 😅

[whole girder]

yes!

oh shadow!? nice

[true saffron]

Changing color and alpha makes the shadow harsher.

[whole girder]

I've been modifying distant albedo and simpleColor to make the distant fog have more blue (like with real photon re-emission)

[whole girder]

dude

can you change the colour of the shadows?

[true saffron]

I'm aiming for this. 😄

[true saffron]

Hmm, I don't think so.

[whole girder]

oh that should be possible

[true saffron]

That would be LUT.

[whole girder]

some engines have the ability to change shadow colour

[true saffron]

Although, I think ambient color would determine the shadow and the sun light determines... the sun light color. 😄

[whole girder]

this won't be easy though, but is possible... silverLining would be low, maybe 0.1 ... the backlighting value (I'll have to look up what it is) should also be fairly low. yellow/grey albedo? low blur. I read this as pollution, not water-vapour fog

[whole girder]

possibly. probably in PT yes

idk I learnt in art school "shadows are purple/blue". of course the reality is not that simple, but pure black shadows in game engines bug me 😂

oh! I have one question about overrides... so if I modify one value in an blah.env, and another mod modifies a different value in blah.env... does the engine combine the changes? or does the whole env get overwritten?

I want lamb Rogan Josh 🤔

[whole girder]

actually blur is about 0.03

[true saffron]

In BlurAreaSettings?

Doesn't that blur the whole screen?

[true saffron]

Depends on the environment and time of day, though.

[whole girder]

really? f..

[true saffron]

I tried various blur settings when I was making my scanner mod and it was a whole viewport effect. 😛

[whole girder]

I can send you all the altered particle files to integrate

okay to DM?

[true saffron]

Of course!

[bleak karma]

Just had a look at the HDR Nova version wow it looks outstanding dude

[true saffron]

Couldn't have done it without all of you. 🙂

[bleak karma]

3.0 Midpoint is super mega bright, not a fan of that idea

but 1.5 is nice

[true saffron]

It's not bright on my end.

Depends on the display, I guess.

It was designed around the black floor being black (as it can be) at midpoint 3 but I can certainly adjust the overall curve.

[bleak karma]

Blackfloor never reaches 0 regardless of value

[true saffron]

I know, I'm just saying people can't complain about "black crush" when it's designed around it.

Were there any other things that stand out to you? Something I can improve on for other users?

[bleak karma]

Well black still LOOKS crushed compared to the SDR presentation even at 3.0

bu I havent really spent much time, just those screenshots

tonemapped to SDR, but in person it's basically entirely black as lights behind make it hard for your eye to adapt

need better eyeballs

[vale orchid]

very likely they didn't know what they were doing with HDR. SDR has lower black floor than HDR

i bet if you just replace the HDR lut with the SDR one it'll look better in practice

[true saffron]

Yeah, the blacks look crushed on yours. 😕 For me, there is still visible detail in that scene. Odd.

[vale orchid]

HDR captures are darker when converted

[teal imp]

Would LUT affect the UI too? I'm taking like menus, not HUD

I'm asking since all the menus look lifted compared to SDR

[whole girder]

@true saffron did you do the ini change for the latest nova?

[true saffron]

No, I don't ship with an INI.

That I'm aware of. 😛

[true saffron]

Nope.

But HDR mode does do something weird to the menu.

[vale orchid]

They should be separate.

[whole girder]

does it make a difference for HDR?

i'm going to have to buy an hdr monitor aren't i

[true saffron]

What INI changes are you referring to?

[whole girder]

Size = 128                    ; (48)
MinRange = 0.000000000001            ; (0.01) expand bottom of histogram   <-----------
MaxRange = 100.0                    ; (100.0) actual max is probably 1.0

[true saffron]

Oh, right. I forgot about that!

[whole girder]

***cough tell them to use ultra+

[true saffron]

It will be a recommendation!

[whole girder]

oooh, naked man 😍

[teal imp]

https://tenor.com/view/do-it-get-to-work-gif-21630516

[gilded summit]

do you normally play in SDR? The menu might emit more light when running in HDR compared to SDR

[teal imp]

No it's washed out vs actual SDR output (not windows SDR in HDR) , with the darker parts being visibly more gray

I will post some comparisons later

[gilded summit]

no need

i know it looks like that

been this way since day one 😄

vincent teo made few vids about it too

https://youtu.be/ms-qPkvpXrQ?si=tjJm_H5CZldr7d7T&t=212

the game was in a much worse state then though

[bleak karma]

I noticed the same

[whole girder]

it can probably be edited in base / gameplay / gui / fullscreen

[gilded summit]

well i looked at it for the last hour or so

still on 0 adjustments

lol

im a bit under the weather so my brain is working far from optimal

[vale orchid]

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/lg-42-class-c3-series-oled-4k-uhd-smart-webos-tv/6534585.p

Monitors lean on being overpriced compared to full 3840x2160 and 42". You'll pay the same amount for 1440p gaming at 27" just because it slaps the word "gaming" on it.

[teal imp]

I know that I love to blame sRGB for everything, but really I'm sure that sRGB is at least, like, part of the problem here
SDR/HDR/HDR 2.2 emulation

[vale orchid]

I noticed something similar when using SpecialK to upgrade the SDR to scRGB. Seemed to work right at 2.2 not sRGB

#cyberpunk2077-dev message

#cyberpunk2077-dev message

Check out the images and the top right (2.2/2.4)

[teal imp]

Yeah, I remember them
technically, 2.2 should be correct for most displays

[vale orchid]

microsoft handles it very well for you automatically, but you need to mark your textures properly. microsoft will convert your SRGB textures to 2.2 for you if the DirectX textures are marked properly. but CDPR is doing their own thing for texture decompression and surface updating, which is why this is all wonky.

DirectX default surface is 2.2, so it could be a last step failure, from CDPR custom to DirectX

[teal imp]

I think that's true for SDR only? At least that's how I remember Joshie explained it

lemmie find his post on SK discord

[vale orchid]

i researched it, but i forgot. maybe @mystic shadow remembers. the idea is all your assets are in SRGB because you used Photoshop or grabbed them from common assets (eg: web). So your textures are in sRGB. then Microsoft outputs a default 2.2 surface, and something something DWM does translations before going to your monitor. (no game ever does real exclusive fullscreen anymore)

[mystic shadow]

I'm really only familiar with the SDR inside HDR issue. That one is pretty straight forward. Windows just simulates the srgb piecewise gamma EOTF when showing SDR inside HDR. I believe this is what the SDR Black Floor Emulation shader is for. It's simply for emulating srgb shown on 2.2. I don't think that the SDR emulation is the correct tool for fixing native HDR issues. I think the manual HDR black floor fix tool (same shader, below the sdr emulation option) is better for that.

I'm not familiar with textures and srgb sorry 😦

[teal imp]

Can't find the post now, but IIRC in SDR windows converts sRGB to gamma 2.2, but in HDR it converts it straight to PQ

[mystic shadow]

Can someone tldr; bring me up to speed on what you guys are trying to figure out?

[vale orchid]

#1186114072027074651 message

on SDR, black floor is right if you consider it a 2.2 signal

on HDR it's off

[mystic shadow]

I don't think Windows converts shit. I think it's just that in SDR, your panel is calibrated to 2.2, and the devs used 2.2 panels probably, so everything is fine

in HDR, it goes straight to PQ like you said, and windows assumes (incorrectly) srgb eotf

[vale orchid]

i think in HDR, DWM is in scRGB? i think?

[mystic shadow]

I thought we determined that the raised black floor is simply CDPR being dumb?

i don't think it's any sort of srgb/2.2 mismatch

it's just that the tonemapping is fucked up in HDR

plain and simple

ha

[teal imp]

I believe dogelition said it does convert srgb to 2.2 (or backwards depending on your display) as long as the content is flagged correctly?

[mystic shadow]

So I think the black floor adjustment is what's needed, just as JDSP's settings instruct

[mystic shadow]

For ICC profile color space stuff maybe

probably

idk about games tho

[teal imp]

#1186114072027074651 message

[mystic shadow]

Yes I saw this

[teal imp]

it sure looks like it to me

menus are not affected by lut

[mystic shadow]

Makes sense. Linear gamma is just basically like srgb passthrough right?

DWM is always srgb yea

[vale orchid]

if you're using an scRGB DirectX surface (HDR), it should be transitionless for DWM, which is the point.

no conversion needed. if the surface is a "SDR" surface (SDR-in-HDR), then it gets parsed as sRGB

[mystic shadow]

Yea, it does. So are you saying that all we need just simply the SDR emulation checked? I thought we looked into this multiple times ha.

are you guys trying to figure out why that might have happened?

like what CDPR messed up?

[vale orchid]

overwrite the HDR lut with the SDR one (which has lower black floor) and do some gamma fixes and see if they output the same

but that won't work because wtf is "tonemapper midpoint"

or maybe using that, you can find out what value "tonemapper midpoint" means "do nothing"

[teal imp]

yup

[vale orchid]

(1.0 ?)

[mystic shadow]

Gotchya, sorry, took me a min. I came in late

[teal imp]

Seems to be the closest to the SDR default

[vale orchid]

you would have to replace the HDR lut to know for sure

i can do that pretty quickly with wolvenkit

[mystic shadow]

Wasn't JDSP going to look into modifying his shader settings to use the SDR Emulation?

or was going to investigate that?

Could have sworn we tested this a million times and determined that the sdr emulation wasn't what was needed, but maybe i'm going crazy

[teal imp]

I believe he said he prefers his settings more
Mainly because even with SDR emulation, game doesn't always reach 0 nits
Which turned out to be due to wonky LUTs

[mystic shadow]

makes sense

[vale orchid]

it's not the LUTs alone unfortunately

[mystic shadow]

I'm trying to get a 4080 super so I can run this game with PT and shit......so if/when I can get a new GPU, I'd be happy to help you guys investigate/test shit

[vale orchid]

i made an all black LUT and it still didn't hit 0

[teal imp]

So I think it's double whammy of back raise caused by the LUTs and sRGB/2.2 mismatch

[vale orchid]

and gamma is irrelevant because pow(0, 2.2) is still 0

[mystic shadow]

Just make sure you're not crushing anything with the 2.2 emulation

[teal imp]

Remind me, that was with film grain on or off?

[vale orchid]

off

[teal imp]

hmm

[vale orchid]

SDR has noise whereas HDR doesn't

opposite

[mystic shadow]

can you disable the TAA to rule that out as noise?

or is that already done?

[vale orchid]

yeah

[mystic shadow]

Turn dlss off too

[vale orchid]

i disabled as much as i could. HDR is a flat gray output (not true black)

[mystic shadow]

gotchya

So yea I guess could be some sort of mismatch like earlier in the pipeline

to do with textures

[vale orchid]

SDR always had some noise, where HDR didn't with the same exact settings

[mystic shadow]

idk enough about it to say either way 😦

[vale orchid]

HDR could also just crush black values and then raise

so the noise could be removed in HDR (black clip), and then raised

[mystic shadow]

If you just make a LUT to simply do the same thing as the srgb 2.2 conversion box, it's still raised slightly?

[vale orchid]

but an HDR lut that is the SDR LUT can clue us onto what it's doing different.

[vale orchid]

doesn't make sense. if the LUT is all 0 values, then 0 ** 2.2 or srgb(0) is still 0

[teal imp]

Yeah, vanilla kinda does that, even with the shadow lift there is very little detail in the dark regions

Sammi mod seems to fix that

[mystic shadow]

Oh right, true. 0 is still 0, you're absolutely right

so I don't think this is a simple srgb to 2.2 mistmatch then

if 0 is raised

[vale orchid]

with postprocess (shader), you can't restore what was deleted though. just lift what's there

[mystic shadow]

unless the devs conciously decided that the HDR black floor should NOT be 0

which is what it looks like ha

unless there's an egregious mistake (very likely also)

[mystic shadow]

So is this test accurate then? Because 0 shouldn't be raised if there is an object that's 0. So idk if the emulation is the correct tool for this job?

i'm confused haha

Why is the black floor so high

[teal imp]

Correct, but clipped yet milky shadows are also an issue in SDR
HDR just makes it worse

[vale orchid]

wtf, why is SDR so much bigger

custom tone mapping is my guess. a borked one

[vale orchid]

^

[mystic shadow]

hence the confusion

not a simple srgb/2.2 mismatch, otherwise 0 black wouldn't be non-zero

so somethihng else going on (could also be a mismatch tho but wouldn't cause the black floor itself to be raised)

could be srgb/2.2 mismatch plus another issue raising the black floor in general

[teal imp]

dunno, maybe?
SF confirmed that menus aren't affected by LUT, and with SDR emulation it looks more or less the same as SDR
Yet bottom is still raised a bit, why?

[mystic shadow]

exactly

very odd

I think CDPR just went full "i dont care" when doing this

likely just some stupid fuck-up early in the pipeline

or "artistic intent" problem?

[vale orchid]

SDR lut as HDR lut

[vale orchid]

I haven't touched the menus actually. maybe i misspoke.

i don't know if there is a lut for the menu, i doubt there is

[mystic shadow]

So the menus are okay in HDR, not raised?

even weirder

is this a case of "artistic intent"?

[vale orchid]

replace the menu image with a full white one and see what nits come out.

[teal imp]

Dev team on this game was a rotating door of people that were asked to crunch until they couldn't anymore and were replaced until that happened again
It's less "I dont care" and more "I have no idea what the least person did"

[teal imp]

ahh ok

[mystic shadow]

Yea that could very well be the case and was my original guess

HDR in this game is just wack

[vale orchid]

yeah, but you only need one person to know what they're doing and watch over the minions. that's how management is supposed to work. i can't be assed to do menial tasks for big projects, so sometimes i hand it off to underlings. but i check their work

[teal imp]

No, they are, unless you use SDR emulation on the game, then it more or less match

[mystic shadow]

oh ok

gotchya

[vale orchid]

i'm being condescending, but the language is for emphasis

[teal imp]

Yeah, but what if management IS the problem

[vale orchid]

fail upwards

[teal imp]

Isn't it how it works most of the time?

[mystic shadow]

In theory, srgb gamma and 2.2 should have the same 0 black, correct? In other words, black floor should be identical right?

If so, then yea i'm confused on this game ha

no clue what's going on

[vale orchid]

way too common "i've been coding games for 20 years, i won't be educated by these new fangled kids". 20 years ago there was no HDR

[mystic shadow]

I mean if the SDR emulation checkbox is enough to fix the issue, then we should just use that and be done with it, ha

or some similar fix

Just because the game doesn't always reach 0 with the sdr emulation, it could still be ok. It's hard to get that right with all LUTs. If you're making sure it's ALWAYS 0, then you're likely crushing detail in some areas, no?

Like in Luma, there are some LUTs where mincll isn't 0

and that's fine

or so i thought

[vale orchid]

i dropped the SDR in HDR lut here, if somebody wants to test... #1186114072027074651 message

[south verge]

I'm pretty sure all the old CP LUTs that said HDR compatible were basically SDR in HDR.

But absolutely will test 🙂

[vale orchid]

they're different.

HDR luts have more raised black value

oh, you mean mods

yeah, maybe

[south verge]

Yeah, mods like vanillaplus and some of the older community released luts

They all never looked truely HDR, and most didn't have anything but Rec.709 colors

[vale orchid]

but the idea for this is to see what makes HDR look exactly like SDR (peak nits and tonemapper midpoint and gamma fixes)

[south verge]

I see. Will take a look

[south verge]

Game crashes on load with that lut

[vale orchid]

neat

i'm using the latest nightly wolvenkit which i haven't tested. maybe it's that.

doesn't crash for me.... over Remote Desktop

[south verge]

Hmm... Guess I'm confused whether its an HDR lut or SDR

Or maybe its just another mod conflict issue, installed a few earlier

Think its a mod issue. Crashing with other luts as well

Always photomode animations XD

[teal imp]

Works on my machine

screenshot shortly

Vanilla/SF LUT

peak 790, midpoint 1, film grain disabled

[vale orchid]

i'd like to know SDR / HDR, what can make them look identical

🙏

[teal imp]

on it

[vale orchid]

also, if you use photomode and hide the UI, you'd get true minCLL

(that minCLL is the UI)

[teal imp]

It doesn't load different LUT?

[vale orchid]

the sdr and hdr lut are the same file, (using SDR file)

[south verge]

Yeah, the UI wrecks havoc on max nits.

[teal imp]

midpoint 1.5 is as close as I can get histograms to overlap

[vale orchid]

and lowest peak nits you can achieve?

what does the game allow? 300?

[teal imp]

300 in game

[vale orchid]

how are you getting SDR screenshots with lilium's shader?

[teal imp]

SK SDR -> HDR, profile 3 at 100 nits and gamma 2.2

[vale orchid]

can you snap the SK settings?

i think setting SK to 300 nits is better, and see if you can get it to line up perfectly

it kinda messes up the science because how SK will stretch to 300, there's a lot of variables

[vale orchid]

yeah, that looks right

[teal imp]

but that will stretch entire range, not just peak
I mean, I can try if you want to

[mystic shadow]

Yea that's what I'd use too

[vale orchid]

yeah, that's kinda what we want, because the HDR picture on the right has a curve past mid gray (hard to describe)

well, we want SK to stretch 0-100 to 0-300, not raise. but more info the better

i wish lilium's shader could parse SDR just for the histogram data, even if the peak nits mapping is "fake". @devout mirage is there an easy way for this? we just want to make histogram comparisons

[teal imp]

HDR at 300/SDR at 300

[gilded summit]

these are my results

[vale orchid]

what tonemapping midpoint value?

[gilded summit]

for me i set them at 1

[vale orchid]

@gilded summit what's the comparison? (left/right)

[gilded summit]

brightest is vanilla

darkest is your lut

[vale orchid]

yeah, that confirms the HDR lut is brighter than the SDR lut, which parsing the LUT told me.

but this also says that the HDR lut is in the same format as the SDR lut if there no real color differences

[gilded summit]

cp only deals in 709

sorry i lack the proper ways to say it properly

[vale orchid]

the textures are all in bt709/srgb, so that's expected

@gilded summit and this dropped your peak nits to half? 400?

[gilded summit]

it did that by itself

didnt change anything

[vale orchid]

so SDR lut is peak 3.x and HDR is 19. something something math

but it's best to disregard all of what HDR looked like before and try to get HDR to look the same as SDR first, because that's really what they originally graded for.

you can make HDR your "hero grade" and then make an SDR version of that, but they didn't. they made the SDR the hero grade, and did something to "satisfy" hdr users

once HDR can look like SDR 1:1, then we can work on making upping the HDR, which should just be uncapping the SDR nit limit (100/203)

[vale orchid]

This is tonemapping midpoint at 1.5?

[teal imp]

yes

[vale orchid]

does any changing of the values make it as bright in average to SDR? sorry to be a pain

the windows on the right are consistent enought to guage since the signage is variable

[teal imp]

SDR at 300/HDR at 300 midpoint 3

@vale orchid the closest I can get

[vale orchid]

so midpoint 3 is possibly "neutral". interesting...

the other test is setting to 1000 in both in-game HDR and special K sdr

and see how 3 holds up

[teal imp]

ok

btw, with your LUT file film grain no longer blows out the highlights

[gilded summit]

thats one of my major gripes with cp's hdr implementation

[vale orchid]

it shouldn't have any affect since i didn't change anything there. it's just the dds. but maybe the HDR lut is malconfigured for some reason

but what we're doing is essentially throwing out their HDR lut

[gilded summit]

midpoint changes blows away all highlight detail

[vale orchid]

yeah, but it does that in SDR as well, no?

[gilded summit]

yes

to an extent

but it seems like the game is properly lit in sdr

[devout mirage]

Game outputs 10bit SDR?

[teal imp]

SDR/HDR

[vale orchid]

8, so we're hijacking with SK to get it to 10bit just to see the graph

[vale orchid]

what tone mapping works "best" with 1000?

and by best, i mean matches SDR

or not high enough?

[teal imp]

not high enough

3 is max

[vale orchid]

so 3 is okayish at 300 nits, and you'd need more to match SDR for 1000. dare i guess 10

[teal imp]

1.5 was okay for 100 nits, so .5 for every 100 nits?

[vale orchid]

so, let's pretend, it's pow(x, toneMappingMidpoint)

[devout mirage]

SDR analysis in the future

[vale orchid]

🙏 You spoil us.

[devout mirage]

It's just a few things I need to change and was requested before

[vale orchid]

🙇

that's enough research to know we have to disect the engine/shader. next step is to dump shaders in SDR. dump shaders in HDR. and then see what shaders are only running when in HDR (if any) and decompile them

that can be done with Reshade 6.0.0 with Addons: https://reshade.me/downloads/ReShade_Setup_6.0.0_Addon.exe

(no SK required)

[mystic shadow]

Excited to see what comes of this

To finally solve the question of "what the actual fuck is going on in HDR"

🙂

[vale orchid]

@teal imp one test, if you set lut/maxrange in the ini to 0.5, does it change sdr and hdr? we said 1.0+ is ignored? that's tedious but i think there's a console option for live editing?

[teal imp]

which .ini?

[vale orchid]

To change the value of these settings, create/open the "engine\config\platform\pc\user.ini" file & add the section name + setting name/value inside it.

https://pastebin.com/mg5Mh3sV

the pastebin has all the defaults for v2.1

text says 1.04, pastebin title says 2.1 🤷

somebody said 100 and 1 are the same, so i'm wondering if 0.5 halves brightness

[teal imp]

so max range at 50?

[vale orchid]

well, try 1.000 first and see if it changes anything, then less than 1 like (0.5000)

[teal imp]

It's not doing anything

not on my end at least

[vale orchid]

thanks 🙏

i can't run Reshade 6.0.0 with Cyberpunk 2077

just crashes

[teal imp]

worked fine to me, but for some reason reshade + SK didn't

had to downgrade to 5.9.2 or whatever

[vale orchid]

it worked before, but i installed 6.0.0 just now to get add-on support and it crashes.

i'm on remote desktop, so might need to try on the physical pc (though rdp worked before)

[mystic shadow]

Did you guys try 6.0.0 as a SK addon?

[vale orchid]

i did not

[mystic shadow]

That should help compatability (I think)

I can send instructions on how to do that if you need

Reshade DLL files go here

[vale orchid]

but i didn't want (or need) SK

[mystic shadow]

shaders to here, just make sure you grab the 2 reshade files that are circled

[vale orchid]

the less layers the better

[mystic shadow]

and then textures here

yea, i hear ya, but might help in this one case

[whole girder]

it's huge! 😂

I'm only little 😂

but yes that makes sense

[teal imp]

more bigger=more betterer

[whole girder]

lol, i do all my work on a ProArt 17" and ProArt 14" 😜

[vale orchid]

I deskmounted my 55". The 1440p 34" it replaced fits inside of it. But I might move my 55" to the bedroom and get a 42" for the PC

[whole girder]

wow

[bleak karma]

@true saffron

[true saffron]

Any non-jxr files? 😅

[bleak karma]

No, but I will just upload the video to Youtube

[true saffron]

It's all good, I downloaded them. Maybe some day we can have native HDR format support.

What am I looking at in these comparisons?

[bleak karma]

Nova top, stock bottom

[true saffron]

Gotcha

[bleak karma]

You know waht it looks like, but just some side by sides

I am big fan

[true saffron]

🙂

It's nice to see them side by side! Thank you for doing those.

[bleak karma]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcWzaONuErM

HDR processing probably nxt week or something

[south verge]

NovaLUT is so beautiful! No going back to PreemLUT now lol

I say that but in reality, I'll probably be swapping back and forth

Gotta keep things fresh

[mystic shadow]

Is this a WIP video? It doesn't show up on your main page.

[devout mirage]

42" is really nice for productivity 🙂
Really like my 42C2

[devout mirage]

It needs something special.
iirc it's just renaming the ReShade dll to d3d12

[vale orchid]

I'll give that a try

[devout mirage]

Also if you have the GOG version try disabling the overlay and maybe skipping the launcher

[vale orchid]

IIRC I did because Special K would crash with it enabled.

[mystic shadow]

Might be some bullshit with FG too

just a guess

That can cause crashes with anything it seems ha

[vale orchid]

I'm a poor 3080 user

[mystic shadow]

same!

[whole girder]

i think when my work reaches the next milestone i'll buy myself an actual gaming computer and probably an HDR screen 🤔

[true saffron]

Can you message me when HDR is done processing? 😅 Would love to share this video.

[whole girder]

it's done!

[true saffron]

Looks awesome! Thanks for the comparison @bleak karma. Mind if I post this to my page?

[whole girder]

it looks so good, even on my crappy $1000 worth of screens 😭

https://tenor.com/fbfB54Rx1Lu.gif

[whole girder]

does anyone remember where i'm supposed to meet Hanako again?

[bleak karma]

Yes but bare in mind this is not fully representative of how the mod and stock footage looks as I've used Liliums shaders to bring the overall brightness and clipping point down

I've also adjusted the black floor slightly

@true saffron ^

[mystic shadow]

Is there any reason why you don't mention the gamut compression value in this video? It's in your pinned settings

[bleak karma]

Because I forgot

[mystic shadow]

🙂

Also, why do you like rgb in pq the best? Lilium has ICTCP labeled as (best quality)

[bleak karma]

Just like the look, for that video I used ICTCP though

[mystic shadow]

Gotchya thx

Hoping to snag a 4080 super when it releases so I can play this game with path tracing etc

[vale orchid]

Reshade was crashing because it was dumping shaders, which it did. and they extracted well, it seems

[whole girder]

same

the 3070 on my laptop only just manages it

[whole girder]

• Fixed an stall where vanilla game runs out of RT acceleration structures
• Fixed crazy skin on some NPCs
• Disabled negative mip bias because I believe CDPR are doing this in-engine already in CP 2.1
• Re-enabled underwater screenspace rendering
• Fixed a stall streaming in new sectors when driving at high speed
• Slightly tweaked brightness of vehicles, skin, foliage, weapons
• Enabled path tracing for hair so hair no longer has to rely on environment probes for its lighting
• Adjusted streaming threads
• Adjusted RTXDI / ReSTIRGI samples to better balance performance and quality for Fast / Full / High
• Slightly reduced PT edge (disocclusion) noise in most scenarios by adjusting sampling radii and variable rate shading
• Reduced SHARC frame blend bias for Fast to account for lower FPS and to reduce smearing
• Fixed some non-breaking typos
• Disabled character rim enhancement. Everything looks better without it
• Reduced bloom clamping to fit better with Ultra Fog

this version has been really good in testing (ty especially to @ocean wren). fixes so many random problems with PT, including that CDPR is mostly using NVidia's settings which are designed for higher real frame rates, so I've adjusted SHARC / ReSTIR settings to match CP's actual performance to help reduce smearing and disocclusion (edge) noise.

"Fast" very much prioritises PT speed above all else. "High" prioritises quality and reducing PT noise.

[bleak karma]

What would the hierarchy in terms of Image Quality be?

Fast
Vanilla
High
Full?

And in terms of performance (best to worst)

Fast
Vanilla / high
Full?

[whole girder]

that's a good question! Fast will be higher image quality than vanilla. it should be about the same speed as vanilla (if you want faster than vanilla, use the PT20 Fast version of ultra plus on nexus, it's significantly faster)

Full is slightly slower than vanilla, but less noise and smearing again
High is no compromises quality (but without going bananas) and will be several fps slower than Fast.

and they all have the same bug fixes with PT — reflections, translucency, skin, relative brightness, hair, etc.

[true saffron]

Yeah I was a little confused with the names at first. 😛 I'm used to Full, Default (or Standard/ Main), and Lite.

[vale orchid]

I can replace shaders. Need testers #cyberpunk2077-dev

[whole girder]

https://youtu.be/4nfgGqa16CE

[whole girder]

Krush is a legend

[true saffron]

Truly is.

[south verge]

https://twitter.com/cyberpunkgame/status/1750903999530774982

Cyberpunk 2077 (@CyberpunkGame) on X

⚙️ We are aiming to have a new patch for #Cyberpunk2077 out sometime next week. It will tackle the most common issues reported by players, including finisher animations.

Stay tuned for more info coming after the weekend.

Twitter · Jan 26, 2024, 3:30 PM

[mystic shadow]

Shortfuse, any insights you found from investigating the code?

on the black level raise

[vale orchid]

Not yet. Still haven't found the tone mapper. just a matter of time. i'm trying to simplify the search

[mystic shadow]

good luck!

[gilded summit]

I had a feeling it wouldn't be all that long

[sturdy goblet]

wow, seems like the game is still very broken by the comments

[sturdy goblet]

have you checked with PIX or RenderDoc?

[vale orchid]

nope

[sturdy goblet]

that would probably help u find the shader. I'm tempted to start playing the game now.

[vale orchid]

no idea how to inject pix

[sturdy goblet]

I could help.

You just open the game through PIX.

[vale orchid]

oh i've tried starfield and it never works, but seems to work here

[sturdy goblet]

there's RenderDoc (my fav), PIX and Nvidia Nsight. Maybe some others as well.
Each works with only some games unfortunately.

RenderDoc is a lot more intuitive IMO, and also offers the same, if not more functionality.

[teal imp]

The entire engine seems to be a series of jenga towers that fall apart like domino as soon as devs miss the smallest mistake

I can't really blame them for switching to UE

Not that UE guarantees bug free game

[vale orchid]

well, i found the ACES code. it's been a while but it's pretty familiar. though i'm not sure if it's in use anymore since I though the LUT had ACES baked in

[vale orchid]

no LUT processing:

i need a dark place to test

[vale orchid]

OpenDRT at ~800 (maybe)

no raytracing, no DLSS (and no autoexposure)

[olive ether]

Love how the neon signs don’t just clip to white now

[vale orchid]

That's an option I had disabled completely from Starfield. I would still need to tune to match Vanilla

[south verge]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-my-god-its-happening-ok-stay-calm-the-office-gif-6091046

[gilded summit]

https://tenor.com/view/yay-excited-happy-gif-15648958664586287187

[whole girder]

i wonder where the Trouble in Haywood VR game LUT is in the game, i would happily play the whole of CP with this 😂

it's not labelled obviously 🤔

[formal lodge]

god that's shaping up so well

[vale orchid]

@south verge #1186114072027074651 message

Nevermind lol, just saw you posted 😂

[south verge]

Been following along in the dev channel, yall are wizards I swear 😄

[mystic shadow]

@vale orchid is cyberpunk the next luma?

I'm okay with that

[vale orchid]

I am compelled to fix bad HDR.

The worser the HDR, the more I must fix.

[mystic shadow]

Quick, get this man the shittiest most busted HDR you can find.

Looking forward to any work you do on cyberpunk :-). I can help you test if you need test subjects

[whole girder]

fallout 3?

[whole girder]

oblivion

ooh! deus ex 2!

worst of all time

[whole girder]

this may actually fix CP 2.1's issues.

i've been wondering why by default the game engine is configured to unstream everything up to 16km away.

what this means is, when you turn around, the engine unstreams it. when you turn back again, it has to stream it in.

when you open the map, it unstreams everything. close the map, it streams it all back in. why ???

i thought maybe there was something i was missing. i don't think there is. i disabled this behaviour and the game's been perfect since

[whole girder]

small update. this makes particles (steam, smoke, fire, etc.) part of path tracing

[gilded summit]

when running pathracing (maybe ray tracing too) the unstreaming doesn't seem to happen. At least not for lower level lods (aka not highest level). I do notice the occasional ray of sunshine going though an unstreamed building. I do run countless of LOD mods though mostly from sosuine. So I don't know if this is purely vanilla + PT behaviour, or that it works because of these LOD mods + PT

[whole girder]

you won't usually see it because it only happens for around 30 degrees behind you, but it's happening constantly

[gilded summit]

but that would completely destroy pathtraced reflections

you cannot do severe culling like that if the world behind you gets reflected

[whole girder]

path traced reflections are considered part of the view frustum... they're specified by RayTracing/Collector/VisibilityCullingRadius

but if they're not in that radius, they're unloaded immediately

[gilded summit]

i c, still most of the time i don't really have the sun shining though (where should be) solid buildings

[whole girder]

if you want to check this for yourself, set RayTracing/Collector/VisibilityCullingRadius = 200 (for example) ... you will see them unload and reload as you move around

no, you won't. that's not the problem this fixes

[gilded summit]

ah ok, i misinterpeted what your fix does then

[whole girder]

😊

[gilded summit]

mb

[whole girder]

the problem it fixes is the massive and constant resource load the engine is under due to streaming and unstreaming things over and over

if you have 16GB of vram, you probably won't notice it

if you have 8 - 12GB, it will kill the performance

[gilded summit]

yeh i got 24gb and run in 4k dlss quality (1440p) i think the horsepower of my GPU is still the biggest bottlenek with the settings i run with, not the vram

[whole girder]

... try ultra+ if you haven't. it fixes almost everything

[gilded summit]

i have no issues with vanilla 😄

[whole girder]

is it AMD or Nvidia?

ah, okay

[gilded summit]

rtx 4090

its nearly impossible to tell what vram is actually in use (allocation is ez) but actual use you need very specialised software for that

[whole girder]

you will likely get higher fps with it and less path tracing noise, but it doesn't sound like you care 😊

[gilded summit]

i tried your mod quite a few times, i still prefer the vanilla pt

[whole girder]

yes i know

[gilded summit]

looks more pleasing to my eyes

[whole girder]

to this

[sullen charm]

What are the game parameters for controlling bounces and ray sample counts in a world with Ray reconstruction, ReSTIR et al in PT 2.1? I tried fiddling with the ones I've found in the PT native UI settings mod, directly through CET, but only some of them seem to have an effect... Using Ultra+ PT21 High btw

[whole girder]

there are no bounces / rays with ReSTIR. not configurable anyway

[whole girder]

try the new 1.9.9 above. it stabilises the image more than i've been able to before

ReSTIR and RTXDI use samples of the scene. from memory they distribute rays across the whole scene using a probabilistic density function (PDF), and then that's sampled into RTXDI and ReSTIR

i think cyberpunk is using RTXDI's new diffuse method (with SHARC to help denoise it), and ReSTIR's global illumination

so ... High takes a lot more samples than Fast

[bleak karma]

Special K will tell u

[sullen charm]

I am looking forward to trying out 1.9.9 later today, the disocclusion noise in certain situations (photo mode mostly, lol) has been bugging me

[whole girder]

yes same

with this version i've been having to check PT is actually enabled

it's there a little at night, i might be able to do something with that... but i'm hopeful it's improved

i never really know until everyone else tries it 😂

and tells me what i broke lmao

[sullen charm]

Hah, well I think 1.9.1 was definitely an improvement. Bearing in mind I only started with 1.8, and didn't really have points of comparison between 1.8 and 1.9 so can't say if it got better or worse... But 1.9.1 did clean up characters noticeably to my eye

Is there a way to dynamically switch presets in-game, or do some of the options only take effect on a game restart?

[bleak karma]

With 1.9.9 and 24GB of VRAM, the max I can see is 13GB usage via SK

[whole girder]

to switch between ultra+ versions in-game?

no unfortunately ... some of them require a hard engine restart

[whole girder]

that's sounding much better

[sullen charm]

Ah that's a pain

[bleak karma]

And withouit the 24GB ini its 12-13GB

[whole girder]

BUT

yes ... it may actually not need the GPU ini any more, i'm not sure

[sullen charm]

I typically sit around 11-12GB on 1.9.1 on a 4090

[whole girder]

yup

[sullen charm]

Then again I've not engaged in much actual gameplay with it 😂

[whole girder]

you can probably force the higher mip bias now too with your card

if you want to see the difference between v1.9.1 and v1.9.9 noise ... i'll grab the command for you

[teal imp]

@whole girder Dumb question, but should one use RR with your mod? Or do you recommend regular DLSS instead?

[whole girder]

to go back to the old version (basically same as vanilla
GameOptions.SetInt("Editor/RTXDI","BiasCorrectionMode",2)GameOptions.SetInt("Editor/ReSTIRGI","BiasCorrectionMode",2)

to go to v1.9.9
GameOptions.SetInt("Editor/RTXDI","BiasCorrectionMode",1)GameOptions.SetInt("Editor/ReSTIRGI","BiasCorrectionMode",1)

[whole girder]

definitely RR if you can. AMD users of course can't

i don't think it's a dumb question. there's a bug in CP 2.1 that makes the skin look worse with ray reconstruction

unfortunately (imo) everything else looks worse without RR ...

[teal imp]

I think it's an RR issue since it happens in AW2 as well

Seems like RR breaks SSS somewhat

[whole girder]

huh! interesting

it seems to ... but weirdly only for some characters??

[sullen charm]

Does the game options toggle for RR still work when using Ultra+?

[sullen charm]

Thanks, will try it out later!

[teal imp]

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxjkNb3gtYHB6jSioG_zf6BMZmsM4TU_eU?si=EJ41WqM52GN0xI9W

[gilded summit]

This might seem like semantics. But it seems like Allocation/Usage/IN use might be what I actually ment. You need in engine tools for the IN use metric.

using the dx api, can only show allocation/usage imho

certain blocks might still be allocated while being market for replacement/overwrites

[whole girder]

mm, so i'm pretty sure AW is using ray tracing + path tracing for diffuse... the same as ultra+ RT+PT

i could be wrong, but i think that's why it has so much less disocclusion and smearing noise

hmmmm i don't see much SSS there either 😜

[whole girder]

oh you're talking about Nsight and Frameview etc.?

[gilded summit]

https://learn.microsoft.com/bs-latn-ba/windows/win32/api/dxgi1_4/ns-dxgi1_4-dxgi_query_video_memory_info

i think special K uses this

[whole girder]

yes... but it's still pretty obvious when your GPU is swapping back and forward between CPU memory

[gilded summit]

yes "D

[whole girder]

yes i would trust special K's methods

[gilded summit]

that will grind your pc to a halt

[whole girder]

SK complains starts complaining before anything goes wrong with vanilla 😂

[gilded summit]

it seems to be the most accurate way of measuring it, without having full acces to what the engine is doing indeed

[whole girder]

yes!

[bleak karma]

That is why we use SK and no DX apis to see what is actually being used, not allocated

[gilded summit]

o i thought special K uses this dx api

[whole girder]

yes and this is what's been happening on <=12GB cards ... it's not only streaming assets repeatedly, the vram is also eventually going OOM and then swapping to system memory while still trying to re-stream assets

[gilded summit]

misinformation on yt maybe 😄

[whole girder]

which causes an eventual freeze or CTD

[gilded summit]

https://youtu.be/pjECDLFFWFM?si=pLpauqvFZryVzfY7&t=272

stamped

"poorly"

man maybe i need to stop talking when still having a fever

[whole girder]

it used to be 😭

i'm just waiting to get a 16GB card at this point lol

[teal imp]

Speaking of which, is there any way to get AO or shadows on props with RT?
https://www.resetera.com/threads/cyberpunk-2077-ot-welcome-to-night-city-read-the-op-before-you-post.340270/page-712?post=112962374#post-112962374

[whole girder]

hmm

you could try enabling RayTracing/EnableShadowCascades = true which is off by default ... all cascade shadows are done via raster even if they're set to RT in the UI

but i don't think CP considers "NPCs" to be cascade shadows ... i've heard people refer to them as contact shadows

(in UE, they're called capsule shadows)

for debris / clutter, you can use this https://www.nexusmods.com/cyberpunk2077/mods/10903

which basically makes me think those NPC meshes aren't tagged as RT ?

oh! also, you can try RayTracing/CullingDistanceCharacter = 40 (for example)

the default culling for NPCs is 15 metres in RT ... but i don't know if any of the distance stuff is working at all in CP 2.1

[teal imp]

I did, but that only works on the clutter, doesn't change the fact that the game seems to be straight up missing AO pass with RTGI

It only has like a large scale AO

[whole girder]

yes, they're not in some RT views

[teal imp]

I will try the settings you suggested later though

[whole girder]

i think the most promising is RayTracing/CullingDistanceCharacter = 40 ... or 30 metres should be reasonable

and yeah, i think a lot of things were using env / lighting probes and weren't actually part of ray tracing, and now they're going and fixing all that (or they've just forgotten)

[teal imp]

Raster/RT/RT+PT/PT

Sadly, that ain't it

[gilded summit]

bababooye is doing a few of these to in his upcomming gits, removing some fake raster lighting

one example

the guy is an absolute unit for the amount of work he does and things he fixes

he's also working on objects that don't emit light etc he posted some WIP on his GITS page https://www.nexusmods.com/cyberpunk2077/mods/9274?tab=posts

i rarely donate, but for people that invest so much time + effort i think its a no brainer

even more talk in cyberpunk 2077 modding community discord - showcases gits 3.0

[whole girder]

boooo

[whole girder]

this is so much work. saying this after just spending 100 hours on the engine lol

this is the most disocclusion noise i can get with u+ 1.9.9 ... it's basically a worst-case scene ... it's dark, with foliage, and a lot of movement. this is the worst of several screenshots (the blur at the bottom of the screen is AMD FG)

noise at 100kmph is almost none

[mystic shadow]

looks nice even on SDR rn

the screenshots I mean

[whole girder]

i have actually checked whether PT was enabled because it was so little noise

i wonder if i can do this for the CP 2.0 path tracing method (ReLAX + RTXDI)

[gilded summit]

Another hack/trick that might reduce noise is nvidia DSR (digital super resolution) Aka render the 3d image in above native resolution. Then use DLSS which can use the 3d generated image to downsample to a quality level lower. I have tried it from 8k back to 1440p. But ran into trouble (while recoding with OBS). But in theory it allows DLSS to base the upsampled picture from more information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxfoC9hQlq0

[sullen charm]

https://youtu.be/dKXPeCS4jxA really interesting, wonder if the new driver improvements have originated from the work on the upcoming game patch?

Massive pinch of salt of course, but a 17% uplift in the benchmark on a 4090 with FG off and just the driver update is unusually large

[vale orchid]

aces replaced with opendrt (at 800nits) with luts, (floor not fixed yet)

[vale orchid]

contrast and highlights are still starfield-like, but we at least it respects peak nits now

[gilded summit]

Later part of the vid is puzling. His 4090 uses less power, gets less usage but has higher fps. Maybe its the optimisations in WDDM 3.2 and the driver utalising it

[sullen charm]

I've heard of that before to be honest

[gilded summit]

its using consistently 30 to 40 watts less

like its undervolted but not underclocked

[sullen charm]

The gap narrows down to 15W at points

It's a very non-rigorous test scenario though, and there aren't any frametime or frequency graphs to show the general performance profile

But yeah it all depends how the driver is boosting performance I guess. If it's making more effective use of the full width of the 4090 (dual issue etc) then it's conceivable you'd get a power and perf improvement simultaneously

[gilded summit]

I havent looked into wddm 3.2, if there is even any info out yet

apperently h23 already has this, likely need the driver to benefit from it

im not going to try that dl link though 🙂

[whole girder]

that driver was released in September '23

wait, the older driver is getting faster FPS than the current on ???

what's going on there

ray reconstruction isn't working on the 550.09. the author says this, however because of this i don't think the comparison is meaningful. some parts of the driver aren't working, that's why it's faster

[south verge]

Until I see frametime graphs color me skeptical. The last 8 driver releases have been horrid in that realm.

[whole girder]

yes ... there is no magic, the beta driver is missing things

windows insider i believe, simply because some games run 10%+ faster on linux

[south verge]

Just saw your comment above

[whole girder]

windows insider, my expectation is they've made some intelligent changes to windows security for game mode

since control flow guard and core/thread integrity can significantly slow down some gaems

GAEMS

[south verge]

Still a little leary disabling control flow guard, especially with how many mods I've installed

[whole girder]

helloooo @south verge

😊

[whole girder]

https://tenor.com/sOy0.gif

a lot of these security features give a false sense of security

meaning people are more inclined to do stupid things, thinking they're protected

... btw don't disable CFG ... just exclude CP from it

[south verge]

Ohh absolutely. It's all about understanding what they do first

I have in the past for pubg, but never really noticed a huge difference in performance

[south verge]

That video was sooo cringe

[whole girder]

it really is lol

i'm sorry 😂

https://tenor.com/bRn74.gif

my background is security btw

i cut my teeth hacking into *cough* large networks

[south verge]

Sammie "Ms. Robot" Lucia

[whole girder]

haha

when i went to uni i took over their network

it took me a few days... i hadn't been assigned an account yet

a lot of people lost their work 🤔

[south verge]

Good ol ethical hacking. Hopefully they compensated you 😄

[whole girder]

they finally found me after a few weeks and i had my account suspended ... a week before it was given to me

i probably still hold the record for the fastest account suspension ever there 😂

[south verge]

So I take it you didn't last long at that university?

😄

[whole girder]

lol, um, no

but not 'cause of that ... they didn't have any evidence on me lol

i wasn't really a uni kind of girl back then lol

[whole girder]

i did do one assignment though. that year

[gilded summit]

@whole girder incredibly tiny filmgrain, barely noticable but 0 banding

this is an sdr pic of a hdr image, which normally makes it worse

i think filmgrain size is the determaning factor here, but idk for sure

these are the settings i changed

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13HbiY9_KrtEUOAQ9O2s4lEi1A0YN-bpc/view?usp=drive_link

full disclaimer, results are in 4k dlls quality. no idea how this works out in lower res

[whole girder]

that's how it's done!

no that seems about right, I was experimenting with 0.5 size (which was still a bit big?) I'll try yours on sdr 😊

[gilded summit]

0.01 might be possible too ill try it

0.01 works fine for my screen

[whole girder]

the film.grain is applied after dlss upscale so should be the same for any screen size

[gilded summit]

yes thats how i set it up too, i do run into banding on bloom though. Not sure if its the bloom settings that should be changed to reduce this or the filmgrain. I tried upping it and it does reduce banding a little. My knowledge/experience is limited, and the info on these things are non existant. But from my observations blooming lights in dark area's especially have banding even at 0.3 strenght. I might mess around with grain a bit more, but i personally prefer 0.1 since it works for the skybox without being visible (the grain that is)

[mystic shadow]

@vale orchid I got a 4080 super today so I can start testing stuff for ya soon in cp77 🙂

for whenever you're ready to release a beta (if you are trying to do that)

[vale orchid]

Stuff to mess around with at #cyberpunk2077-dev

[gilded summit]

https://tenor.com/view/yeet-yee-cowboy-dallas-cowboys-gif-27512215

that moment you start trouble shooting your whole modlist, while not realizing you cycled though quality settings on accident, and you have to go to the main menu to select highest texture resolution again..

[mystic shadow]

is anyone using that cyberpunk hd reworked mod or nah

i haven't actually tried it yet

it seems that without the hd reworked pack, maxed out at 1440p, cyberpunk uses no more than like 9gb of actual usage as per SK

[south verge]

Yeah using CPHD with a 4080. No issues.

Haven't updated to 2.11 yet though so who knows

[mystic shadow]

I thought there was like a vram/texture issue or something

using more than 16gb etc

[mystic shadow]

Is anyone forcing 16x AF via drivers instead of using cyberpunk's in game AF? Apparently it's better with driver forced?I

[vale orchid]

spec version of ACES HDR spec to try:
#cyberpunk2077-dev message

[whole girder]

nice!

i'm cautious of such small particles due to performance, i've been experimenting with larger

there's two ways to create a "film grain" effect that i'm aware of (there's probably many more), one is to have a 2D or 3D noise texture and move it around pseudorandomly. the other is to generate the noise on the CPU. i would guess bc we can specify grain size it's probably the latter

this is the following settings 🤔

[vale orchid]

You can also do it as a shader like we did in Luma. no texture needed. seems to work out pretty well. the hard part isn't getting the pattern. it's applying it based on pixel luminance

what we did for Luma ended up being faster than using a texture and people liked it more

[whole girder]

is this a reshade preset?

yes there's also a few approaches ... additive and subtractive ... additive only ... chroma only ... chroma and luma ... luma only

my knowledge is from digital pre-press printing gradients, which you generally use colour additive noise

[vale orchid]

that's how starfield did it. and it raised black level because it's... additive

i didn't port to reshade, despite people asking me to, but the code is here: https://github.com/EndlesslyFlowering/Starfield-Luma/blob/bf167404f3aeb24efba5987d2cdebbf2da17f2c6/shaders/FilmGrain/FilmGrain_ps.hlsl#L147

[whole girder]

... so is the plan to integrate your work into CP directly? (sorry i haven't kept up, work is nuts)

[whole girder]

i have a feeling in CP it's a shader already for the main screen vignette

[vale orchid]

i don't have a place to inject it other after tone mapping or final output (over UI). i think film grain doesn't run if it's disabled, so i could do it as final output pretty easily. i think Starfield painted film grain over UI

the only problem with the film grain i wrote is it's per-pixel, so it's not very blocky. and it kinda goes for fine film grain, but as it would appear on real film. the research is taken from https://www.imaging.org/common/uploaded files/pdfs/Papers/2003/PICS-0-287/8583.pdf

[whole girder]

how is this game running faster at 2560x1600 than 2560x1440 (0.67 DLSS)

[vale orchid]

maths? integer division? maybe it doesn't like the resolution

[whole girder]

right
lmao starfield 🤦‍♀️

mm, there are parts of the engine i think mostly raytracing that don't seem to scale with resolution well

so frametime for 0.33 scaling is similar to 0.67

but i haven't done a full frametime analysis

there's definitely things in there that can be optimised

[vale orchid]

if it does it in blocks, (eg: 40x40) maybe there's a partial block, and making it split it up is extra work. and per frame it adds up

[whole girder]

mm idk. it still seems to happen in path tracing, which in theory should reduce total RIS samples as sceensize scales

so maybe it's in RT / PT prep

[sturdy goblet]

FOV is more square, less things in view?

[whole girder]

that's a good point

idk if it just clips the top and bottom or changes the FOV. somethings weird leading up to RT or PT is my guess. now i'm super curious

path tracing should scale and i believe it does Editor/Denoising/NRD/EnableScalingCompensation = true ; default even though this is for NRD which is no longer used, i think they're still using this setting for RIS

idk changing resolutions and DLSS scaling doesn't quite give expected results for me

maybe you're right Pumbo i'm so sick of trying to work out this engine lol

[vale orchid]

@whole girder do you have film grain texture size and/or what it looks like?

[whole girder]

yes hold on i'll grab some screenshots

also i'm an idiot ... regarding fps i was running the PT diffuse layer at half res 🤦‍♀️

@vale orchid this is a quick preview

#1186114072027074651 message

don't mind my lut lol

[whole girder]

the lut from the Big Trouble in Heywood AR game

[gilded summit]

in photomode you can adjust the size, there is a slider there for grain going from 0 to 100, seems to adjust the size only

[whole girder]

testing with a less crazy lut

i can't see any grain or banding. it's a little hard for me to see though because i have visual snow

ummm

[formal lodge]

that looks like normal cali stuff to me idk

[gilded summit]

i do see the grain though

55 inch screen does that i guess

[whole girder]

you do? dammit

I'll have to get my husband to tell me lmao

[gilded summit]

it might also be compression blocks

the bright grain particles being turned into bigger blocks

just compression artifacts

Its going to look different on different screen techniques too i guess

[whole girder]

there I can see it 🤔

it could well be, I'll try again in the morning, ty!

that's really weird. then there's far less at the bottom of the crop

[gilded summit]

its a huge blow up, from a compressed picture, its just pixels tbh, but tbf it was visible. might not be in game so basically ignore my post lol. Have to see it in game to properly tell

can you drop the env/lut here? ill test it for you on my 55 inc screen

@whole girder ^