Elk's Epic Encounters | Epic Monster/Spell/Stuff Theorycrafting and Thinktank

[versed ore]

barebones draft document
(cool stuff will go here)

The tl;dr

• I have drafts of level 10+ spells + concepts for Tier 4 (CR 20-30) and Tier 5 (CR 31+) monsters
• Very janky deity ability concepts, think Salient Divine Ability (like the classic snooping and spellcasting ones), without a means to utilize them BUT could be handy for representing gods mechanically
• No current ideas or plans for epic levels (idk how to make player options), which does pose problems for practical testing
  

[hazy quartz]

Can I contribute my stat block for a demi god and peusdo demi god? they're marked cr20 but afaik that's a lie

[severe light]

So there is actual lore on this from older editions. Theres a bunch of existing 10th level spells, and there’s a bunch of existing CR30+ monsters with stat blocks. According to some research, there was a CR90 “Great Wyrm Time Dragon” in official published content

[versed ore]

Go ahead!
I think CR 20 is actually not that far off, the Empyrean is very close to outright being a demigod (by definition it is a demigod, even!) and is CR 23

[hazy quartz]

Isn't there a disney character with a super high cr stat block?

[versed ore]

I personally consider the prismatic/force/time dragons outliers because they're so extreme statistically, especially with Chronos the god-butchering pantheon-erasing master of time being "only" CR 57(!!)
Although I do kinda want to take a stab at "on-curve" versions but haven't decided on their power

[hazy quartz]

Best/worse part is these two are very different depending upon their allies, Tribios especially

[versed ore]

Very fancy action/trait names

I've been working on filling up the CR 22-30 bracket as well, since that's "supposed" to be where even level 20s start to have trouble, acting as a nice bridge between "stuff a vanilla party can kill" and "Poseidon appears, roll initiative and hope you last a turn. Not a round, a turn."

[hazy quartz]

These two could fit nicely into a "training" bracket

Like friendly sparring stuff

[versed ore]

The Hecatoncheires awakens!
Just bringing this here, since I had written it for this "project" but it's outdated as I've since rebalanced/tweaked it a lil

[hazy quartz]

Hmm this poseidon comment makes me wonder about a high CR guy that gets 3 or something full turns a round

[versed ore]

Most recent revision of the Hecatoncheires

[versed ore]

I've considered that, actually! 4e does it for some truly scary creatures such as the Dragon of Tyr and I think some gods too
They don't roll initiative, they get turns on three initiative counts

[hazy quartz]

Are you making a fucking raid boss?

[versed ore]

I had fixed the glaring oversight of it getting far more attacks than deserved, although I went by the book's math so it should look about right (the tarrasque is slightly squishier, but it has resistance to BSP)
also level 20 PCs are scary, ideally they should be able to take down a CR 29 giant at about the same difficulty as the Tarrasque. Hopefully.

[hazy quartz]

This aventurine guy has a 2nd stage which I should really stat up

Do you have any epic rules or ideology down?

Run a play by post /hj

Jokes aside you could probably legit pull together a group from this server

[versed ore]

I'll put it down under "maybe" but low-priority, I need to throw delicious chum in the water first before I collect the fish

Draft of bog-basic "agnostic" rituals to beef up your spells, loosely based on Cormanthyr elf high magic
tl;dr with a myriad ritual, you can gather power to cast a spell you lack slots for, and more mages enhances the effect or lets you buff the spell. The intent was to a) allow epic spells and b) allow those big ritual doozies you see in the myths

[hazy quartz]

I took a ritual system from rachayz for my lich class lol

I'm a little suprised base 5e doesn't use rituals more

[hazy quartz]

...what kind of stuff needs to be made player facing? I assume a couple higher spells and handful of weapons but what's outside of that

[versed ore]

Levels above 20, primarily
Level 20s can already kill titans and demigods, but killing stronger stuff (without nerfs and help) should take a bit more elbow grease
Plus if I expect players to be taking out CR 31+ creatures then they need all the strength they can get

The original, the legend itself, the "first" 5e level 10 spell... I present Comet!

Comet

Level 10 Evocation
Casting Time: Action
Range: 1 mile
Components: V, S, M (a chunk of meteoric iron)
Duration: Instantaneous
You choose a point within range that's outdoors with access to the sky. A comet impacts that point, creating a 50-foot-deep, 500-foot-radius crater. In the area, each creature makes a Constitution saving throw, taking 30d10 Force damage on a failure or half damage on a success; structures and unattended nonmagical objects are destroyed instead.

I personally pinned it as my benchmark level 10 spell (you can't scribe it anywhere, it's a scroll-only spell found in Netheril so you know it was no regular spell)
The most bog-basic, mind you. No materials needed, one action, immediate "I want that place gone"

edit:

Summon Titan

Level 10 Conjuration
Casting Time: Action
Range: 1 mile
Components: V, S, M (a tarrasque scale)
Duration: Instantaneous
Choose a type of titan, such as a kraken or tarrasque, up to CR 30. The titan appears in an unoccupied space that you can see within range that can contain it. The titan is Hostile toward all other creatures and disappears when it drops to 0 Hit Points.
based on scroll of titan summoning, lets you call a big thing that goes on a rampage.
-# You can technically use this to summon an Iota if you so wished
Thank '24 for giving us lots of options

[versed ore]

Spells, Items, Monsters, or attempts at player goodies (variant rules, feats ect)?

[versed ore]

Adamantine Golem, Gigante - CR 21
Sliver of Pandorym the Outer Gods - CR 25
Gigante Hecatoncheires - CR 29
Archlich, Supreme Arcanist - CR 31
Great Archdevil (pre-god asmo, satan ect), Great Archangel (zaphkiel, metatron ect) - CR 32
Elemental Primordials - CR 34?
Cthulhu - CR 34
Typical Lesser Deity - CR 35
Some "Tier 4 and Tier 4+" creatures I've concepted and mulled over. Missing reps for types like Fey

[hazy quartz]

Half personal biases speaking but wouldn't some big anthromorphic animal work for high CR fae?

Or something like a wendigo

[versed ore]

I've definitely mulled over some archfeys, 4e has Baba Yaga at CR 27, the "Bramble Queen" at CR 27, Cerunnos at CR 25, and the Prince of Frost (notably, a son of Titania) at CR 31
The hurdle is that archfey are varied in theme and ability so I'd have to decide which ones to make first...

[versed ore]

Concept/draft for the infamous Mother of Hags herself, Baba Yaga!
This block doesn't account for her magic items, since that would've made the block too large and her items aren't SRD so I'd have to remake those
Though her mortar/pestle are more utility items either way, and the dancing hut would be its own statblock (and probably an unremarkable combatant)

I took a few cues from the Arch-Hag (the resistances/immunities being one), and spells from the arch-hag and green hag

@hazy quartz Not quite an anthro, but here's a fey to cause trouble for powerful parties

[hazy quartz]

Ooh baba yaga

[versed ore]

:o i have attention

[hazy quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-gif-25117042

[versed ore]

I mostly based this off the 4e block, but expanded with spellcasting and legendaries, as well as a few extras like rebirth and legendary resistance
Also with HP and AC balanced for CR 27, of course

[hazy quartz]

I work 11am to 10pm most days 😔 hard to do everything I want in a day

[versed ore]

-# Had no luck pinging the other two and don't want to keep doing it just in case they really are busy or unable to reply yet
how can i ramble and experiment with no guinea pigs witnesses

[hazy quartz]

@honest elm got an suggestions for what I should make? Context is super high cr anthro

[hazy quartz]

split the mind

[versed ore]

Not a fey but fey-adjacent, there's Talisid from Planescape, leader of the Guardinals and he's a CR 30 lionman

[hazy quartz]

I'm about to call out tomorrow if my allergies don't get better, I'm not running around all day if I can't fucking breath 😭

[hazy quartz]

Close enough, counts as material

Watch this thread be how I go on monster making spree of evidently fae/beasts

Big threads (threads for big things) are really slow to get tractions and good luck keeping multiple people active in it

[versed ore]

My current goal right now is just to get an idea of what would be good to focus on; do people want big spells, big monsters, big rituals, more boons, god stats?
If I can figure that out, then I can just drop the chum in the water and wait for bites, but I need to know what kind of chum to use

[hazy quartz]

Big rituals, big monsters, boons

That's my personal list and in order

[versed ore]

So what's your current thoughts on this concept? Too strong, clunky, weak? Good nuff to build off of? I drew upon the idea of multiple casters resulting in those big fancy rituals of legend and myth
Sorry if it's late for you

[hazy quartz]

I definitely like it, I'd prefer for it to be really crunchy though. Modularity go brrr type shit

I'm trying my best to hard bake it into my lich which you probably remember? Haven't touched the doc in awhile but I'm ruminating still

[hazy quartz]

Well it is late (almost midnight) but night shift be night shift. I'm not sleeping until 8am lol

....

[versed ore]

I think I did get slightly inspired by the lich, even, although I mostly used the Elven High Magic rituals and went from there. I wanted to avoid making it too "crunchy" as I wanted it to be mostly agnostic and easy to follow along (I think other people have done a better job than I at making super-crunchy group casting, although I don't think many of them let you "break the spell cap" on account of most people usually not writing level 10 spels)

[hazy quartz]

I think I keep accidentally pinging you

[versed ore]

Nope, you haven't been pinging me (mercifully lol)

[hazy quartz]

I should make a spell in the vein of storm of vengeance army wiper tbh

[versed ore]

There is one spell I'm proud of, that no sane party will get the chance to cast but is inspired by one nutty ability that Immortals could get aaaaaaaaaall the way back in 1e

Also I do have a few level 10 evocations whose purpose is basically "eliminate armies and cities with unnatural disasters"

[hazy quartz]

👀 and what is said spell?

Spell point casters+warlock be going hard post-20

[versed ore]

I imagine 'locks and pointcasters would have special stipulations if/when I get around to making proper casting rules beyond "hope the DM gives you an artifact/scroll with this on it" as thatwill probably be your main source of epic spells

[versed ore]

As an aside, a CR 35 creature would have about 1,065 HP using MM math, although Mythic monsters cheat it a bit by having more than one phase, so a two-phase lesser deity could have 2,130 HP (mythic phases count as fighting the same creature twice back-to-back, so you get jumbo experience for doing so)
Just a stray shower thought

[hazy quartz]

Hmm

How much can I mess with a creature for it's mythic stuff

[versed ore]

In official mythics, they usually add new legendary actions called "mythic" actions and the gem greatwyrm has a mythic-only action that's super duper telekinesis
in theory you can tweak as much as you like
another approach i've seen in official stuff is multiple statblocks (for form changes, like auril and giant scions), which technically aren't mythics but have the same role

[hazy quartz]

What's the difference between fae(monstrosity) and monstrosity(fae)

[versed ore]

Tags aren't types, they're decorative classifications so ackthually 🤓 the tag won't do much
It's stuff like Angel, Archfey, Beholder, Chromatic, Demon, Devil, Dinosaur, Genie, Goblinoid, Gith, Hag, Metallic, Titan, Yugoloth, Wizard ect, classifications that mean nothing on their own (except item attunement, so a creature with the Wizard tag counts as a wizard for attuning, if that ever comes up)

[hazy quartz]

Boo, thought they might at least work for dominate monster or magic circle etc

[versed ore]

I think it's partly for batching and for things like arrows of slaying where they might work against chromatic dragons, or maybe your glyph of warding or symbol is keyed to attack gith or genies. Or you have the Demonomicon, which has bonuses against demons. Or a special sword that idk does bonus damage to titans

There's no official dual-type statblock so there's no official formatting, but I've seen it written as either Fey / Monstrosity or picking whichever one fits the most and having a trait that says it counts as the other one as well
Empyreans have "Huge Celestial or Fiend (Titan)" as their type, so in theory the official style would be "Fey and Monstrosity"

[hazy quartz]

I see

Once I figure out cr35 damage I'll have a statblock, it's admittedly a stage two but I'm thinking on an extra gimmick to add

[hazy quartz]

my take on a two-phase lesser deity (this is the 2nd phase) how do I properly scale the pouring rain attack into epic levels? I added a bluff gimmick to the fight but idk I could probably do more for EPIC

hell how the fuck do I scale straight bet, this guy is built to crit more as he gets low. and he will heal a good chunk

The "legendary resistance" includes a disable on the crit chance and healing but is that good enough for epic tier?

(I still need to make that anthro but this is easier since it was already planned)

[versed ore]

three types
holy hells
how do I properly scale the pouring rain attack into epic levels
very good question! I don't have epic levels, but a CR 30 monster looks to be about 186 damage per round (or 216 for a theoretical CR 35), give or take 10%, and aoes assume two characters fail the save and get hit

[hazy quartz]

Oh so I'm far behind...

A crit of pouring rain should average 148 for two characters failing

...fail works ig even though it's an attack

Oh wait hot hand...is assuming a 15 on the d20 a fair result then what, assume it triggers once per round on the PC's

I wonder how often a player would choose to call a bluff

[versed ore]

I should make/revamp another monster, any picks from here, or something else?

[hazy quartz]

Primordial elementals sound cool

[versed ore]

One thing I've experimented with for epic monsters is extending "regional effects" to be effects the creature has just by existing, no lair needed. They're greater than any ancient drago, able to challenge even the gods, so their power is surely overwhelming and enough to shape their surroundings to their whims
(I partly borrowed these from the red dragon but hey they're thematic)
Also gives lil hooks for preludes to the encounter; fields are drying up, forests are burning, villages are being attacked by efreeti and salamanders, and all of this stems from a godlike embodiment of elemental fire that some doomsday cult unleashed

[hazy quartz]

ah yes!

[versed ore]

is that a good yes or

[hazy quartz]

A good yes

[versed ore]

Current draft for the fire primordial (CR pending, 33 or 34 are about where I'd put these as they're made to be around-or just under-the power of a lesser deity)
This one is based on damage and destruction, so it make sure to fry everything and incinerate all it opposes. The other primordials I picture with their own builds and strategies (so the strats to defeat them will hopefully differ), and Fire is the "berserk" DPS one
I'm not 100% sure on the legendaries or what sort of fire attacks to give them.

[onyx kernel]

👀 the phoenix's daddy
looks neat at a glance

[versed ore]

I'm sure if anyone analyzed it closely, it would seem a bit shoddy, but that's the point of concepts 👁️
I'm mostly going for the broad strokes since ultimately balance is a nightmare at this point. Though I am doing my best to stick to the established pattern so that if anything deviates too hard, then at least it wasn't entirely me fault hehe

[onyx kernel]

it's fine, if youre running these the players are at the levels that balance is thrown out of the window

[versed ore]

Probably the largest variable is that the fire primordial is a nightmare for people who are nearby because unlike the others, it burns things just for being too close. So rangers and people that find a way around that will fare a lot better. I also wonder if the primal fire gimmick is too overtuned or not. Tracking all the dot might be fiddly, although for most cases one can assume that if this thing approaches a city, there is no city left

I did a rough damage calc, and it can hit above curve (forgor the exact number, it was around 220 damage I think) if it passes through you and uses only its highest-damage options (plus the primal fire burn), which is partly intended (fire is easy to mitigate, and this thing is the most DPS of the bunch) but I have tried to mitigate it a little

Hopefully it gets across nicely the "will burn down Olympus if given the chance" vibe

@hazy quartz big flame

[hazy quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/burn-gif-20530397

[versed ore]

As for the others, earth would naturally be big and slow, but very defensive and probably very quakey. Water would overwhelm and try to drown everything. Air would be a living windstorm (hi elder tempest) and be both fast and really hard to catch up to and pummel (cuz air). So Earth is tank, Air is... skirmishy I guess, and Water... dunno how I'd describe it, but it's a living tsunami

[onyx kernel]

if you want to figure out the broad strokes the existing mega elementals (of which the Phoenix I mentioned is one of them) can offer some ideas

the main dif is those are animals and this is just, nature
not even trying to make the concept grappleable

[hazy quartz]

Is there an earth equivalent to the Phoenix?

[onyx kernel]

yeah, zaratan, big turtle

theres also leviathan, and an air one probably

[versed ore]

elder tempest

[versed ore]

Those lot are partial inspirations, yah
I have debated on the primordials being "humanoid", although it could just be a manner of flavoring. Who's to say the fire elemental can't shapeshift or "phase through" to sear things with its inner heat when it uses its Fire Form trait?
But "elemental embodiments" was mainly what I envisioned, the exact appearance is irrelevant as the stats are meant to be archetypical

Righty... Air, Earth, Water or something else?

Also I'll need to figure out roughly how strong of a foe a level 20 party can reasonably beat without really cheesy optimizing, I've heard/seen parties punch quite above their weight so I just need to figure out the "soft ceiling" where a party can't reasonably kill the thing without specific optimizations or strats

[onyx kernel]

CR30 is intended to serve as that for a party of four

[versed ore]

Truuuuuuuuueeeeeeee...
I haven't seen an actual party fight the new tarrasque (or even any of the new titans) so I don't have a good awareness of how well that works in practice

Strongest non-tarrasque titan is the CR 25 colossus, but it's got a very basic loadout (it slams, shoots a basic ray, or shoots a big ray that's weirdly not as destructive as expected) with no other gimmick so it's probably super easy to kill
I suppose there is the runner-up, the CR 24 ancient red dragon

[versed ore]

One trouble I've had is thinking of creatures that thematically fit the 25-30 bracket (I'll hold off on CR 31+ for now unless there's demand for that)
That's about the range of aspects, demigods, greatwyrms, titans, giant scions and other near-gods. Thinking of things to beat up in that range has been tricky...
Currently I have Baba Yaga and gigantes, aiming for non-individuals (I did up Baba Yaga because she's cool and folkloric, and could be used to represent a similar "super hag"). But very few things breach even CR 22, and even the "final line of defense" for both the upper and lower planes (Balor, Pit Fiend, Solar) are "only" CR 21 at most.
Where do you go from there?

tl;dr cr 25-30 could do with some epic foes, preferably not specific individuals unless folkloric and adaptable, brain empty

[hazy quartz]

I personally feel like mid 20 and higher cr stuff starts to get into "individuals" or generic versions of said really powerful individuals

[versed ore]

Yeah, I'm good with "generics"
eg. the "Great Archdevil" I've mulled over is a stand-in for pre-god Asmodeus or other Satan-figures in general.

addendum: as a comparison

CR 30 Mythic - Aspect of Bahamut/Tiamat "a physical manifestation [...] carrying his memories and will—and a significant portion of his formidable strength [...] full glory of the Platinum Dragon, towering over even ancient dragons"
CR 30 - Tarrasque "Among the most devastating creatures in existence [...] engine of catastrophe, ruiner of nations [...] primeval destroyer [...] weapon of immortal forces"
CR 26-28 - Greatwyrm "chromatic greatwyrms exceed even ancient dragons. [...] their power can raze a city to the ground, destroying buildings and defenders alike."
CR 25 - Colossus "massive Constructs created by the devout [...] thrum with incredible magic and work divine will on the land [...] the construct's heart pulses with divine power"
CR 24 - Ancient Red Dragon "number among the most feared and destructive beings in the multiverse"
CR 23 - Empyrean "the spawn of deities [...] near-demigods"
CR 23 - Blob of Annihilation "cosmic entropy conjoined to the remains of dead gods [...] sweeping forests, villages, and fortresses into its mass"
CR 21 - Solar "final line of defense between unspeakable evils and the order of the multiverse [...] lead vast angelic hosts and wield holy weapons capable of laying low the wickedest Fiends"
So CR 25-30 lies in a bit of an awkward spot of being stronger than almost everything, but weaker than an aspect or tarrasque

[versed ore]

[versed ore]

I cast True Resurrection!
Been working on some more "high CR" monsters to add more to the 25-30 bracket, and I decided to make a revamp of the Atropal (renamed "effluvial god") as an archetypical "undead god zombie", somewhat based on the 4e atropal and also on observations that 5e's one was wimpy compared to its past incarnations

So untested, unbalanced V1 of a zombie god!!
better stock up on those anti-necrotic strategies, y'all

[hazy quartz]

I just made a spell called daybreak

[hazy quartz]

The option to take extra damage instead of getting stunned is cool tbh

[versed ore]

Yep, I nabbed it off the Empyrean

[mighty chasm]

spells? spells? i read spells?

[versed ore]

I do have an assortment of epic spells, although they're mainly conceptual. I've written benchmarks for levels 10-12 though

[mighty chasm]

you know about the Avatar of Karthus spell?

also what're the benchmrks

[versed ore]

Funny you mention that one
Also gimme a sec to dig up my docs and notes

Epic Spells

The benchmarks for "epic" damage use the recommended level 9 spell damage, damage of Meteor Swarm, official damage for a godly creature's Bite, and pseudo-spell "Comet" from a certain module.
Typical Level 9 Spell. 70 (15d10) to a single target, or 42 (14d6) to multiple targets.
Improv Damage. 120 (24d10), the damage for the Bite of a "moon-sized monster" or godly creature.
Meteor Swarm. 120 (40d6) Fire and Bludgeoning in four 80-foot spheres as action, 1 mile range, ignites objects.
Comet. 150 (30d10) Force in 1000-foot Sphere and 50-foot crater as action, 1 mile range, destroys nonmagic objects and structures.
Comet thus serves as the benchmark for a Level 10 AoE with a rare damage type and great destructive potential. Effects like terra-forming and huge storms also inhabit this tier, but take materials and longer casting times.

As a rule of thumb:
Level 10 affects or threatens cities and small nations at once. Many such spells are destructive or terraforming magic.
Level 11 affects large nations, or global with lesser effects. Greater deities and similar can revive or raise a city as Undead, form of shatter a moon, or make a continent-spanning curse.
Level 12 affects the planet and beyond, and even the gods. It can be read as "anything an overdeity lets you get away with".

My principle benchmarks for epic magic, based on existing examples and a little extrapolation. 10 is where you shape the world. 11 is where your will is planetary. 12 is where you can overpower even the gods (Mystra was a greater deity when Karsus brainjacked her).

Some conceptual spells
a) Comet, a "tactical nuke" to hit one thing and blow it up. Action cast time, things go byebye. Most straightforward.
b) Ruinous Storm, a devastating hurricane for when you have a bit of prep time and need to obliterate battlefields, cities or nations
c) Summon Greater Outsider and c) Summon Titan, to call forth big scary things. Greater Outsider gives you mighty allies, while Titan is good if you need a big monster to kill lots of things.

[mighty chasm]

how so

[versed ore]

I wrote an "agnostic" variation of Avatar as a proof-of-concept, although it's not designed for "serious" play because if you can cast level 12 magic then you can more-or-less do whatever you want. Still, it felt like a neat writing exercise.

note: "sphere of influence" means "crystal sphere or setting"

[mighty chasm]

Does Summon Titan mean the creature is friendly to you?

[versed ore]

Oh no it hates everyone. I based it on the titan-summon scroll (well, I originally based it on the tarrasque-summoning scroll but then '24 expanded it to be any one titan, so you could find a scroll that summons a kraken)
The official choices are Animal Lord, Blob of Annihilation, Colossus, Elemental Cataclysm, Empyrean, Kraken, Tarrasque
-# technically the CR 1 Empyrean Iota counts as a valid choice for Summon Titan
Apotheosis (this homebrew) adds Gigante and Gigante Hecatoncheires as titan options

[versed ore]

Did a writeup on a couple "epic materials" that might become relevant for tier 4 parties

[hazy quartz]

https://tenor.com/view/pikachu-detective-pokemon-let-me-out-gif-13616228

[versed ore]

Never! Mwahahahaha!