#Iconographer Class

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chilly summit
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https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/utOswlR_e8sl
Hey guys,

I've been working on this class for a little bit now. I'm hoping to get it reviewed and see if there are any major flaws I should work out. I am still working on ironing out the spell list (I think it's too light on damage spells) but feel free to give (suggestions/clarity check/grammar) on anything and everything.

Also, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with licensing stuff. I have a block of licensing on the third to last page but I don't know if it fully covers me or if I am somehow in breach of Wizards' licensing. If anyone has any suggestions in that regard I would be extremely grateful.

Deeply appreciate anything you can help with.

Sincerely,
Umbaril

The Homebrewery - Make your Homebrew content look legit!
Iconographer

No description.

chilly summit
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Iconographer Class

novel hemlock
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The website that is linked in the spell-list has spells from Xanathar's and other books listed in it, which I personally would not be comfortable with.

chilly summit
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Fair enough. I might just remove them. Mostly they were just there for reference but if it’s going to cause problems I have no qualms taking the links out

dusk nimbus
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Well, for starters - why isn't this a Wizard subclass? The base class is just a regular fullcaster with the single gimmick of "Vancian Quicken"

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Or, well, Artificer, given that Infusions seem to be a solid part of its flavor

chilly summit
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The original idea was inspired by trying to use caligrapher tools as an artificer's tools. However, I felt like it was too restrictive for what I was trying to accomplish. It has changed a bit since I first started out but I wanted to try and create a class that would be able to create a more permanent form of magic, sort of like a half-enchanter. I wanted to try and offer a way to do rune casting but with the option to do any sort of visual symbol/glyph/icons that the user wanted to use.

I've also never heard of Vancian Quicken. Can you send me a link to any descriptions?

dusk nimbus
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Well, right now it really reads like a Wizard/Artificer sub. It lacks unique mechanics

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There's #1090785981910753321 you can take a look at, though I don't remember if it really felt like a proper rune caster per se

chilly summit
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I appreciate the feedback. Just so I understand you fully, did you also have issues with the subclasses, or was it just the base class that needed more unique features?

dusk nimbus
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Well, the base class lacks unique mechanics, so the subclasses end up being pretty boring too (though I only skimmed them)

chilly summit
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If you have time, I would appreciate if you could look through them. I think that I put most of the unique mechanics in there and made it so that your subclass determined more of your experience than anything. That's why I have you choose it so early

dusk nimbus
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Aight, I'll take a look in a while

chilly summit
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I appreciate you taking the time to look through everything. It has already been really informative

dusk nimbus
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Okay, so I've read the subclasses. While there are indeed a few neat abilities, a lot of them are just "Int times per rest, get a minor bonus to this or that". There's also a lot of abilities that could easily be (or outright are) spells - which is pretty redundant on a fullcaster. But there isn't anything that would really change how the class plays - regardless of subclass, you're just somewhere on the Wizard-Artificer spectrum with only a few minor modifications. Sure, Imbuement is cool, but I don't think it's enough to justify this being an entire class on its own.

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You could effectively reduce the entire class to a single Metamagic if you really wanted

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I don't want to sound overly harsh, because there's definitely some good ideas in there... But it definitely needs more work

chilly summit
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Got it. Do you have any suggestions if I want to try and make this more of a class? Do the abilities need to just be more powerful? That was one of the things that I was trying to make sure I did, was not make them overpowered. And/or remove the "int times per rest" parts and rework it so it makes sense?

dusk nimbus
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Well, for starters, I think you really need to solidify the core concept and separate it from other classes more. Maybe you could make it a full Vancian caster for example, though I'm sure there are better ideas than that. Somewhere I saw a Runist class that simply had spells trigger at the start of your next turn as its unique mechanic, to represent the slower casting. As anything you come up with is more likely to be a limitation than a bonus, it should free up some power budget for cool subclasses.

Then, yes, make sure the subclasses tie into the core abilities, and try to rework all the limited use stuff - otherwise the bookkeeping will be horrible. You can consider introducing some sort of common resource like Ki or Channel Divinity to fuel these abilities too, it'll be both easier and neater than everything having separate uses. But personally I'd be more in favor of passive or at-will stuff - boosts to your spells, boosts to your Inscriptions, special actions...

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You can also consider making it a 2/3-caster if you'd like more power budget. It appears in homebrew sometimes as a way to make a "caster but with more special abilities". It could outright be a 1/2-caster like the Artificer too, if you have ideas for features that aren't spells (nor Infusions). Could do Pact Casting too, because why not (and Vancian Pact Casting could possibly be neat)

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Basically the first thing to figure out is "what should make this distinct from existing classes", with Wizard, Artificer, and kinda Sorcerer and Warlock being the closest ones. And make sure the answer genuinely justifies this being a class and not just a subclass

chilly summit
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Thanks for your input; it has been insightful. It seems like I have some thinking to do...

dusk nimbus
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You do. Good luck though, this definitely has potential, and I haven't yet seen a truly satisfactory implementation, so you may be first

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Feel free to take a look at my #1221802709985001542 too, though it's still work in progress (in particular, doesn't yet have the Inscriber subclass you'd probably be most interested in)

solid axle
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did someone say runes

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reading through this now, I'll do some running notes

dusk nimbus
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oh right, should've pinged you

solid axle
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intro is good, flavorful but so far could just be a caster with runic / inscription flavor
looks like a full caster so far, doesn't need verbal components on anything? could be a big boon in the right campaigns
AHHHHH spell storing, the classic runic mechanic

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how do marks come back? long rest?

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runic defense is neat but calling it runic when the rest is mark / inscribed makes things muddy

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so without getting into the subclasses yet, this is essentially a wizard that spreads out spell slots to other people / uses prep time to be more expeditious in combat?

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flavored as inscription

dusk nimbus
solid axle
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I left a while back cleaning up my stuff but I still follow!

chilly summit
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Hey @solid axle,
Thanks for taking a look. Here are some answers:

  1. Yeah, I wanted it to be all visual-based. So you lose the visual so the silence spell isn't a problem anymore but as soon as you have your hands tied you can't do much. Mostly just a trade-out
  2. I forgot to add it but yeah, marks come back on a long rest. I'll add it in
  3. I've got a few places I call them runes, but they are meant to be different from your marks. I understand your point though. I'll have to clean it up.
  4. Yeah, kind of a mix between a wizard and an artificer. As you go into the subclasses the markers have more and more uses. It kind of becomes a complex play of balancing your spell slots and your markers in order to keep the benefits they give you. It also allows more economy to other players that might be missing some (e.g. Barbarians missing bonus actions because they only have rage)
solid axle
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how do you expect this will impact a typical party? do you worry about some classes with fewer bonus actions suddenly casting big spells in combat?

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at really no significant penalty

chilly summit
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My thought process is that it should be fine since it is still your spell slots that you are using. I guess it might speed things up a little but I haven't really tested it. You also are a little bit restricted because you are tying up some of your spells without knowing what is happening

solid axle
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from a powergaming perspective, let's say you use several marks for some big damage spells on a boss fight. you've burned 3-5 spell slots yes, but in one round you've now effectively cast 3-5 big spells while everyone is getting their main action

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you are potentially nova'ing the boss in a single round, if I'm understanding the process correctly

chilly summit
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Yeah, I could see that. But I would think that some of your marks would be used with other spells that you wouldn't really use in combat, and once you use your markers you can't really reuse them (*mostly) until your next rest. I would have to test it out to really get a feel for it. Thoughts?

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Its kind of skewed forwards so you get some big things at the begining but slow down?

solid axle
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when you're balancing classes you have to consider the ceiling situations. one of the main draws to wizard are their big spells and they're usually gated by one spell per round and a sizable cost

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so for this case!

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the option to beef up all of your martials with mega spells or crowd control or w/e, while not always optimal, is still a viable plan

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and it can very easily wreck the balance of a fight, kinda like having multiple paladins just dumping smite slots all at once

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one possible way around it would be to limit the number of marks that could be activated per turn or have some sort of scaling cost to having multiple get used in one turn

chilly summit
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That's a good point. I like the options you gave. Something like you have to make an intelligence check where the DC = 10 + the spell's level. or maybe I could make it so only you can activate it but it still is "coming" from the person so stuff like range might be more adaptable and playing off of synergy with other players. IDK, I'll think about it.

solid axle
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yeah, a DC check for each successive spell would work

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I'd make it a scaling difficulty too, 10, 15, 20 etc

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so you can still pull off that wombo turn but also have to roll well for it

chilly summit
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I'll play with it (maybe make a v2 for the whole thing). Thanks

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Did you have a chance to look at the subclasses?

solid axle
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I did! I couldn't read them all on my phone but got a decent idea of the direction of them

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as someone who's done classes in the past I'd recommend cutting a few of them

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7 is a lot and the blade crafter and symbolic transform kinda feel like 'fighter / druid at home'

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which I think waters down your overall flavor

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oops primal pattern not transform

chilly summit
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That's fair. I had the same thought process about the Domain of the Primal Pattern (which is what I think you meant by druid instead of symbolic transform). I was basically trying to make one for each int-based ability score (and still came out with 2 extra somehow lol). As for the Blade crafter, I did want to develop the idea of enhancing blades and armor as if you were using runes. Maybe I can just go another direction so it isn't all about you fighting yourself but helping others instead? Idk

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But I do think that that would also help distiguish this class from others as well as "not watering it down"

solid axle
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my runesmith has similar goals of largely being a 'support' class, so that's definitely a way to go if you want to

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what do you want the class to be?

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can you see a distinctly different character for each of the current subs?

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or do you see some blurred lines between some?

chilly summit
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In reality, I can see a different character between all of them but I see blured lines between different other classes and the subdomains.
Arcane Scholar: Wizard
Blade Crafter: Fighter
Chronicler: More unique (but some faint blood hunter influences)
Divine Scribe: Cleric
Faded Mark: More unique (but with some Oathbreaker Paladin vibes)
Primal Pattern: Druid
Symbolic Transformation: Warlock

In reality, I want it to be a class where you are able to harness the powers of symbols and use their lasting benefits to cast magic. Because of their lasting effect, I see them being more of a support (kind of like a bard or artificer) where they are more likely to help others than themselves

solid axle
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ok so here's a thought exercise for you then

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why are you crafting subclasses around other classes instead of themes or party roles?

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why would I play a divine scribe iconographer over a cleric when they share flavor space? what's the defining difference between the listed subclass and the class it's attempting to mirror in a way?

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I have 5 subclasses here based on specific runes

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rather than basing each on a class, they're themed around that rune and how that rune could play a party role

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so I've got blaster support, tanky support, movement and tricksy support, and crowd control support

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the last one is more of a solo experiment and getting cut 🥴

chilly summit
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I agree. My original idea was to do something similar with the Eldar Futhark runes and try to base it on that. But I realized I wanted something that was a little more vague and more open to being flavored to be a different runic language if someone wanted, or they could do just different Family Crests, or tarot cards, or the Astrological signs if they wanted. (This also had the bonus of me not having to come up with 20 different specific runes and their abilities). This isn't meant to belittle yours (I've read some of yours and it looks good), it's just what I think I want out of it. Though I will probably look yours over more fully to try and glean how to make more of a distinction

Does that mean that I'll have to sit down and probably rework the whole thing to make it more focused on different aspects of the class itself...probably.

solid axle
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doesn't demean mine at all! and I'm not trying to say my class is perfectly flavored or balanced

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but one thing I've run into challenges with is how differently people see runes compared to how I see them

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so I think keeping your class open to a more generic 'symbol' is better for letting the player apply their own flavor

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they could be astrologists, or runecrafters, or genealogists

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if you can take 1-2 more steps away from the current 'wizard with prep and writing stuff down' I think you're in a great spot

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how does this study of symbols impact your class? what have you learned besides spells? what can differentiate you from a studied wizard?

chilly summit
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I like all those questions but I really like that last question you asked. Currently, I think wizards and artificers are the only classes that use Intelligence as their spellcasting modifier. So I think if I can find a way to distinguish the Iconographer from both of those (besides a single feat like the spell storing) then it might be distinct enough.

solid axle
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I think from a flavor standpoint you can make a decent argument for not being a wizard

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outside of spell sharing I think you need another big hook that’s different

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redirecting magic? earlier ability to copy magic? mixing spells with one another?

chilly summit
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One of the original ideas that I had was being able to modify the spells that you have. Kind of like this scene that I found: https://www.tiktok.com/@iwatchanime073/video/7305531189144653089
Just with symbols instead. Or if you've ever read "The Rithmatist" by Brandon Sanderson
But at the same I kind of felt like that was encroaching on sorcerer turf with metamagic

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solid axle
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that definitely reads like sorc but it can work

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you just have to find a way that it's different enough and still works

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but that's a major challenge!

chilly summit
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yep, that it is

dusk nimbus
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And yeah, Aneruen is right with these questions. Or maybe you could consider making this a "horizontal class", the way Psion is. Don't make a class, make a few subclasses that share mechanics. A Wizard subclass for generic "symbol casting", an Artificer subclass for those wanting to focus on passive buffs more, a Sorcerer subclass to focus on the twisting aspects, a Druid subclass for the nature-themed ideas, a Cleric subclass for the divine ones, and a Warlock subclass for the self-modification. It may seem a little unsatisfying at first, but I find it's often a good choice for certain class ideas.

The Psion is a good example: it's hard to say what a psionic character should do. Are they a buffer? Debuffer? Or maybe just a warrior or scout with some tricks up their sleeve? Turning it into subclasses resolves this problem neatly. Not saying this is the right choice, as I believe a Symbol Caster has enough to make it its own class, but it's certainly something you can consider

chilly summit
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Can I use dex to act as their spellcasting ability?

oblique dome
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You shouldn't use DEx for your spellcasting ability because Dex is already used for too many other things

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In addition, the guides in ?homebrewguides are generally better

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?homebrewguides

swift finchBOT
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Here are several guides to homebrewing balanced, compelling and fun content.

-- (Sub)classes --

Guide to Balancing Homebrew Classes (Leuku)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dsQ30Kl6bdHvMBtlICglSFy5v2Yl1kqR/view?usp=sharing

Guide to Archetype Creation (Vaegrim)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqjEJXCM5v5dlgqjeltHfxvw1lYV2IT-n2cgb_InzAY/edit#

-- Monsters --

Badooga's Monster Guidelines
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-Lyr4Z6BYE3OCJDK6mr9#

Leuku's Designing The Mechanics of the Big Bad
Original post: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDBehindTheScreen/comments/45gp2k/designing_the_mechanics_of_the_big_bad/
"Plug and Play" features: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDBehindTheScreen/comments/6gveal/big_boss_solo_inserts_or_plug_and_play_features/

-- Races --

Detect Balance: a 5e Homebrew Race Guide (SwordMeow)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vq1kz6PRAbw5LHy6amH-bNb4OuB8DBXL1RsZROt03Sc/edit#gid=872807765

chilly summit
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I'll look into these, thx

chilly summit
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@oblique dome I've started looking through Leuku's guide and its great! Thanks again

dusk nimbus
chilly summit
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I think I just liked it because it showed a thought process for determining why you were building a class and not something else