#The Brawler - a class about getting in the zone and punching

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round herald
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this is my first attempt at a full scale class so any feedback is appreciated

unreal crypt
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what’s different enough about this class that it couldn’t be accomplished via a monk, barb, or fighter subclass?

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how do you see it as different?

round herald
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first and foremost, i feel the Flow State is a pretty unique spin on things. i won't say it's dissimilar to barbarian rage, but it has different perks and abilities especially as you get into the different subclasses

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while i'm sure you could do quite a bit that this class does with some multiclass amalgamation of barb/fighter/monk, i feel like this is a more fleshed out version without the necessity of multiclassing

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The Brawler - a class about getting in the zone and punching

unreal crypt
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in what way? unarmed attacks being the focus but more brawling and less precision?

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not saying you’re wrong but I’m not seeing a big enough difference to warrant it. what’s the vision you have?

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I guess flow is just kind of difficult to picture and not well described in the document

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it doesn’t feel different, it just feels like several existing features for martials tagged together

round herald
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the class utilizes temporary hit points in a way i've not before seen in DnD, as the benefits of a flow state end once you lose them. it makes THP a resource more than an HP buffer

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and i mean, the class IS largely based on a lot of preexisting classes and elements, as stated in the citations at the end of the document

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unarmed attacks are the primary focus of the class, much like a monk, though it combines elements of barbarian and fighter to allow the class to be more of a frontline combatant

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(the class is also took a lot of inspiration from the well known Pugilist class)

round herald
unreal crypt
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you start off with flow state and think you’re going to lean into that, but it ultimately just becomes other class stuff

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I’m not trying to be down on the idea because I think it’s cool

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but this one doesn’t separate enough IMO. what could you add or alter to make it more unique? how could you really build on the flow state aspect?

round herald
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please lay out what you believe isn't unique and could be changed. it's very difficult for me to look at this class without bias or emotion and i'm afraid of coming off as hostile. if i do come off at hostile at any point, i'm sorry

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Ascetic Fighter at level one is a combination of Unarmored Defense (barb) and monk's scaling damage on unarmed strikes. while not unique, i intend on keeping this class as an unarmored punchy class so a necessary evil imo

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the Flow State itself starts off as a mix of rage and monk stuff, but it doesn't stay that way. it provides a lot of buffs to the features later on and in subclasses

round herald
cyan trout
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The one standing will be right.

unreal crypt
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please get passionate and tell me why you think I'm wrong

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I will go through each feature in a bit

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palworld has me hooked rn

round herald
round herald
cyan trout
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Ok, so it shall be decided on a Palworld battle

round herald
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i'll go through every feature and provide what i think is and isn't unique, as well as providing commentary as to why i did something a certain way

cyan trout
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To be fair, I understand the approach of "an amalgamation of multiple classes". Because sometimes you don't want to multiclass.

round herald
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i personally don't like multiclassing too much. i'm not a meta minmaxer by trade, but i do like to optimize what i have

cyan trout
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It's more a neccessary evil to accomplish whatever build and theme you want

round herald
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Ascetic Fighter:
As stated, I believe it's a necessary evil for what I want from this class.

Flow State
Its use of temporary hit points is completely unlike anything I've seen, but its starting benefits are pretty well just from other classes. The first bullet point is from monk, the second and third are from a barb subclass and based off barb rage damage respectively. While not unique, I believe the first one gives some pretty important tempo for the brawler to keep up with other martial classes. The second one plays into flow state effectively being advanced tunnel vision. The third benefit is still not unique but is slightly different from barb rage damage. It's included to further help the brawler keep up with other martials in damage output.

Iron Will
Plays into flow state and allows for extending it. As it relies on the flow state, I think it's unique in design if it's not unique in concept.

Hail Mary
Similar in concept to Reckless Attack but with a significantly different execution. Closer to the "Haymaker" from the Pugilist, but still slightly different execution.

Extra Attack and Fast Movement
Neither is unique but provide good buffs and tempo for the class. A necessary evil imo

Resilient Flow
Concept isn't unique but is very rarely touched on in this way. The advantage on Dex also isn't unique but that's a pretty broad buff that many classes can find a way to do something similar (iirc, I could be wrong here).

Critical Strike
Similar to barb's Brutal Critical, but a different execution that has a significantly different impact on the numbers behind it with brawler's scaling damage. I actually ran the numbers on this one to understand it better. Additionally, changing crit range is something a number of classes can do.

Full Counter
I want to say this one is pretty unique. The Pugilist class had something similar in one of its subclasses but this is differently fleshed out.

Dogpile
Completely unique. I haven't seen this even mentioned, let alone used anywhere else

Titanium Resolve
Resistance is nothing new, but I'm not currently aware of any class that gives resistance after their feature is finished (maybe barb or fighter has something like this?).

Perfect Flow
Capstone feature, no unique concepts in any class here really. Level 20 for every class is primarily designed to give you something to improve the class's longevity and I think this does pretty well.

round herald
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alright @unreal crypt I've gone through every feature of the class and its subclasses to break down what is and isn't unique in concept and execution

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from there i've made some conclusions. I think my core class is mostly fine as is in terms of being different and unique. there's a number of "good stuff buffs" that other classes have, but that's something other classes do with each other all the time (Artificer's "Flash of Genius" is a single target, limited use and intelligence version of Paladin's "Aura of Protection," for example). that being said, my subclasses can use some work. i have a full breakdown of them typed in a notepad document to copy and paste when we're ready to talk about those

unreal crypt
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my original questions were more pointed to this feeling like a collection of features over a class concept

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the concept is you are a brawling puncher

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what beyond that? what does flow state mean, and how is it different than a monk’s Ki focus and a barbarian’s rage?

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I don’t think the document does enough at this point to differentiate with other things by descriptions or additional abilities

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being in a state of focus isn’t translating

round herald
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how is it the same as monk's ki? monk's ki is a pool from which you have a number of options on how to use. some of the abilities the flow state give may be similar or the same, but it's fundamentally different from ki

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barbarian rage is a fair comparison, but i still feel it differs. rage lasts for a minute, while flow state lasts for as long as the temporary hit points last. the benefits they provide are also mostly different, having overlap in only a few areas such as damage increase and advantage on strength (in the bruiser subclasses)

round herald
cyan trout
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I think he refers to how different is this class narratively to the ones it is being based off.

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For instance, a ranger and a druid both take from the "connection to nature" theme. One is a more shamanistic approach, much more mystical. While the other is an explorer/survivor, defined by their hunting skills.

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Fighter is a weapon experts, monk is a buddhist martial artist, barbarian is a primal warrior.

round herald
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ah, gotcha. the Brawler is an untrained street fighter, in that regard

cyan trout
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Ok, and how do the features help representing that theme?

round herald
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each feature the brawler receives gives them some form of endurance, longevity, or combat skill centered around hand-to-hand combat or the flow state. the flow state itself evolves from a mastery of fist-meet-face combat

round herald
cyan trout
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It can help

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Not everything has to be some line like "this punch is like this" or "this kick is like that", but more about the evolution of the class into becoming that king of the underground fighting.

round herald
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yea, i get it. like for 15th level "Dogpile" maybe something like "Starting at 15th level, you encourage your allies to jump in. If you move an unwilling creature out of reach of an ally, that ally gets an opportunity attack against the creature."

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maybe swaping the word "allies" with something else, given it shows up thrice in two sentences

cyan trout
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Yeah, something "street-sy" for the first allies, and "they" for the last one.

round herald
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gang or crew?

cyan trout
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I would replace "unwilling creature" for "hostile creature" or "enemy"

cyan trout
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(homies)

round herald
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quickly checks rules n

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so i changed it to "Starting at 15th level, you encourage your crew to jump in. If you move a hostile creature out of reach of an ally, they get an opportunity attack against the creature."

cyan trout
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Seems about right

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Btw, ever played Def Jam?

round herald
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then for 9th level Critical Strike, "Starting at 9th level, you've learned how to hit where it hurts. When you make an attack with an unarmed strike or brawler weapon, you score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20. yada yada..."

cyan trout
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I have played Def Jam Fight for New York

round herald
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i have not, but i have seen some gameplay of it lol

cyan trout
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And how to abuse the crowd.

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There could be some inspiration to take from

round herald
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i watched Maximilian Dood play it. it's hood good shit

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and yea, every now and again it's popped into my mind while making this class

cyan trout
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It's both the bad and good hood at the same time, hahaha

cyan trout
round herald
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i couldn't justify it in an earlier feature, and i wanted it to scale. the full feature is "When you make an attack with an unarmed strike or brawler weapon, you score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20. This changes to scoring a critical hit on a roll of 18-20 at 13th level and on a roll of 17-20 at 17th level.

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In addition, while you’re in a flow state, when you score a critical hit with an unarmed strike or brawler weapon, you can roll one of the damage dice one additional time and add it to the extra damage of the critical hit."

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i did a lot of number crunching to keep this one balanced

cyan trout
round herald
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lmao i'm going to add something to the Roughhouser subclass now

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"In addition, you can encourage nearby creatures that aren't hostile towards you to bring you improvised weapons."

cyan trout
cyan trout
round herald
round herald
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hmm

cyan trout
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If anything, you can still lock the extra damage die to a later level

round herald
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maybe swap 2nd level's Iron Will with the 13th level Critical Strike? (keeping extra damage die at 9th)

cyan trout
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I will confirm on that later, since I haven't read the class yet. I'm working on an essay while conversing.

round herald
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"At 2nd level, you can maintain your flow state for longer. If you would lose your flow state, you can use any number of Hit Die to gain temporary hit points and continue your flow state. When your flow state ends if you have used this feature, you suffer one level of exhaustion (as described in appendix A of the Player’s Handbook).

Starting at 11th level, you no longer suffer one level of exhaustion for using this feature.:

round herald
cyan trout
round herald
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lmao fair enough

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i'm glad i'm done with anything school related

round herald
cyan trout
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Probably for the best either way, since you are sacrificing healing, then get exhausted.

round herald
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yea that's fair. the flow state was, as the cool kids say, "straight busted" when i created the first draft of the class, which is when Iron Will was created.

cyan trout
round herald
round herald
blissful hare
round herald
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thanks g

blissful hare
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Done

unreal crypt
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so you’re saying untrained fighter but also they can achieve a flow state like trained athletes / professionals

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is it a trained pugilist or a backstreet brawler? or both?

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Seba is right, I was referring to the thematic similarities between barb/monk/fighter and this one

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the mechanics, while similar to some from those, can still be justified as different enough

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but I still don’t see narratively how this is different from an existing martial. what makes them a whole separate class?

round herald
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back street brawler, but a flow state doesn't require professionalism. it can be acquired from a lifetime of fighting

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but honestly, how isn't it different? i don't see how it's so similar it can't be a separate class

cyan trout
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It's hard for me to put it into words, so I suggest asking someone else what it means to be level 1 in a class

round herald
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i mean, i think that may come down to differences in how we play the game. more often than not, i've found that characters are storied beyond their class with their backstory

cyan trout
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Those are your first steps, and it can imply you have had some experience before becoming that, or years being a level 1. But no matter how much previous experience you have, you are still a small shrimp.

cyan trout
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That's why I'm having a difficult time explaining this

round herald
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then what do you suggest

cyan trout
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Classes have their own context, their own little backstory of how you came to be. You never start being a master in what that class does from the get go. No matter how long ago you have been doing work related to that class.

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Even official classes somewhat struggle to represent that progression. Like monk starts being a martial artist, but everything else is your ki progression

round herald
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then i think the class does well enough in that regard. the flow state evolves the entire time, it doesn't stay stagnant

cyan trout
# round herald then what do you suggest

Sorry if I haven't read your class yet. I could only suggest that the first levels is you grasping the first stages of the "flow state". Like suddenly becoming aware of this super awesome mental state when you fight, getting some basic benefits (unrelated to your fist training) which you may or may not be able to activate at will.

As your story progresses (level up) you learn what conditions trigger it, how to tap into it voluntarily, and then bringing out its full potential.

Whenever I get to sit down and read the class I can give a more in depth analysis.

unreal crypt
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you can also tell me to kick rocks if you feel good about the class theme, I’m just one voice

round herald
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have you taken a look at it today?

unreal crypt
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has it been updated?

round herald
unreal crypt
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I’m not offended at all

round herald
unreal crypt
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I hope my questions inspire you to defend your class, it means you’re passionate about it

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mechanics can change but you can’t force passion

cyan trout
unreal crypt
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what’s a brawler weapon?

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why not use 2 rolls of your unarmed attack dice for flow state? easier bookkeeping

round herald
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i don't know what a monk weapon is really either

cyan trout
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I thought it was improvised weapons

round herald
cyan trout
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Then reskin it to be weeb af

round herald
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ah, then a brawler weapon is the same. brawlers have proficiency in simple weapons (i might delete that), nets. and glove weapons (if applicable)

cyan trout
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What would be a glove weapon?

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Brass knuckles?

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Cestus?

unreal crypt
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so then weapons you are proficient with

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the first feature mentions brawler weapons but doesn’t identify them

cyan trout
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Monk is proficient with simple ranged weapons, but those ain't monk weapons

round herald
unreal crypt
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right, I’m talking about the class feature specifically

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you’ve got a damage die for unarmed and also the unidentified brawler weapon category

round herald
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should i put somewhere that "A brawler weapon is a melee weapon you are proficient with."

unreal crypt
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that works

cyan trout
unreal crypt
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or you could just replace brawler weapon in other places to weapon you are proficient with

cyan trout
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So, a glove weapon should be inside the simple or martial group

round herald
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i can't account for how every table runs, that's correct. but glove weapon is a pretty broad term explicitly intended for interpretation. it makes sense a brawler knows how to use a weapon that is effectively an extention of their fists, even if it's martial

unreal crypt
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1d6 to all saves is equal to prof in all saves at that level

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I’d make that cost a reaction

cyan trout
unreal crypt
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especially if you’re going to give DEX advantage too

cyan trout
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And define wether they are simple or martial

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Because the category pretty much defines its power

round herald
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Yes! balance talk! this is what i was wanting because i don't really know how to balance well lol

cyan trout
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Oh, maybe even a special property where if you have two it basically counts as versatile.

unreal crypt
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this needs the effect where your weapons are counted as magical, especially leaning into unarmed

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unless you’re going to give the class a way to craft a special weapon as a feature

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I know a sub has it but it needs to be in the main class or you will start to suck

cyan trout
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A knuckle made of your victim's teeth

round herald
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+1 wraps are already a magical item

unreal crypt
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a brawler’s specialty weapon could be a great 1st level feature

unreal crypt
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don’t rely on magic items to make your class playable

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assume none

round herald
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alright. where should it go?

unreal crypt
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that’s how the PHB is balanced

cyan trout
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True, even if it's one from main books, a player might not get it

unreal crypt
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I’d do it level 1 instead of flow state

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push flow to 2, add the exhaustion for flow extension mechanic to the base

cyan trout
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(And give it a bazooka. Which they can use as knuckle fists)

round herald
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i don't think they should get exhaustion. while thematically it may be on point, you don't want to punish a player for using their core mechanic

unreal crypt
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wait isn’t that already in the class?

cyan trout
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We talked yesterday about removing it

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Regardless of level

unreal crypt
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oh gone now right

round herald
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it was part of "Iron Will" but the argument was they're already expending their healing resource

unreal crypt
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flow state at 2 may feel odd but it could work as you start to ascend from backyard fighter to legit force of nature

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your choice though

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letting them craft a custom brawler weapon adds a level of flavor to separate them from a fighter

round herald
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i was opposed to it when you first mentioned it, but i can see it working. it's similar to how monks unlock their ki

unreal crypt
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most people don’t spend more than a session at 1 anyway

round herald
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alright, so, changelog
Flow State -> level 2
Fist counts as magical -> level 1 main class
Iron Will or Hail Mary -> level ??

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something new for Rune Breaker level 3

cyan trout
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Oh, right, Changelog. You might wanna make an additional link to that

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I'm using Homebrewery to write down mine

unreal crypt
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sorry, magic should be at like, 6

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that’s where it usually pops up

round herald
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maybe swap flow state and hail mary then kinda just tag magic fists to level 6? L6 is currently a subclass feature, but this wouldn't be the first class to give you a main class bonus at the same time

cyan trout
round herald
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"your fists are bless by the gods"

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now we're religious baybeeeee

unreal crypt
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they’re not magic, they are just potent enough now that they pierce magic resistance to normal weapons

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it’s a handwave for balance

cyan trout
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I'm not asking for balance reason, that one is obvious. It's about the class' narrative

round herald
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they simply punch that hard

cyan trout
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I wouldn't be surprised you can just ignore resistance instead of having magical fists

round herald
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if i'm being real, there's nothing cooler when playing a martial than shattering magic with raw power

cyan trout
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Weird? Yes.
Badass? Yes

round herald
unreal crypt
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hmm, could work

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you could also give extra boosts as they move on in levels to that weapon

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I did a barb subclass with a custom weapon that sort of evolved and had customization options

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ended up pretty neat

round herald
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it could further open up a subclass that specialized in upgrading brawler weapons, even if the main class can craft them

unreal crypt
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just another way to differentiate so I think it could be good

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you just have to be careful to not become a special weapon class

round herald
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i assume level 1 to start crafting brawler weapons?

unreal crypt
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that’s what I would recommend

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pick 1 weapon to make, have them describe it, pick the damage type, and set a cost and time to make a new one

round herald
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elaborate please. this is a pretty foreign concept for me to describe

cyan trout
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You start with a crafted weapon already, for free. If you want to make another it will cost you money and time

unreal crypt
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let me see if I can find a published example

cyan trout
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But a crafted weapon (if not from the PHB weapon table) you need to define its damage die and type

round herald
unreal crypt
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wizard spell book doesn’t have a base cost in it

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interesting

round herald
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hmm... i don't know. crafting weapons feels out of line with my original vision; it feels off

cyan trout
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Kinda, I believe a street fighter would by default be adept at using improvised weapons. They don't craft, they use what they can get their hands on.

unreal crypt
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you would say something like ‘choose a melee weapon that you are intensely familiar in fighting with and describe it. it may be a pair of bladed gauntlets, brass knuckles, or similar. you start with this weapon in addition to your other starting equipment. you are proficient with this weapon and can use it as a brawler weapon for class features that require one. select an appropriate damage type this weapon deals (BPS). if this weapon is lost or destroyed, you can replace it over the course of a long rest and the cost of X gold in materials’

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gives an easy out to the table regarding fist weapons

round herald
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i can work with that

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we could probably throw that under "Ascetic Fighter" or would you think it should have its own feature?

cyan trout
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Very practical

round herald
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probably like "5 sp of materials"

cyan trout
cyan trout
round herald
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the damage scales with level since it's a brawler weapon

unreal crypt
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look at a cheaper martial weapon and base it off that

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5g probably

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you shouldn’t lose or have this destroyed super often

cyan trout
unreal crypt
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bill gates

round herald
# unreal crypt 5g probably

that's fair. glove style weapons weren't exactly common in the medieval era and would have to be special ordered

unreal crypt
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it could also be nunchaku or tonfas

cyan trout
unreal crypt
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leaves it open for something a brawler would use

cyan trout
cyan trout
round herald
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Well-worn Weaponry

Choose a melee weapon that you are intensely familiar with and describe it. This may be a pair of bladed gauntlets, brass knuckles, or something similar. You start with this weapon in addition to your other starting equipment. You are proficient with this weapon and can use it as a brawler weapon for features that require one. Select an appropriate damage type for this weapon from bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. If this weapon is lost or destroyed, you can replace it over the course of a long rest at the cost of 5 gp in materials.

unreal crypt
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I’d probably run that by a wording person but looks decent to me

cyan trout
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I would just call it Brawler Weapon, no need to have a fancy name

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Easier to track

round herald
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maybe add in "This weapon is attached to your wrists and cannot be disarmed."

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"You can use an action to unequip it."

round herald
cyan trout
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You can change the order of the elements, but it is understandable

cyan trout
round herald
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i'll probably drop it in #wotc_wording still

round herald
cyan trout
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Same as a shield

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In this case, you are donning and doffing the weapon

round herald
cyan trout
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Yeah, I know

round herald
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i'll still have to further define it

cyan trout
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Also, it needs to state if you can wield anything else in a hand with a donned glove

round herald
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i need to throw in that it doesn't restric- yea that lmao

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but now the question is begged, why use a brawler weapon at all? unarmed strikes do the same damage

unreal crypt
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flavor

round herald
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i agree

unreal crypt
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do you want the class to only punch, or to have weapons like this? only punch is more monk centric

round herald
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Brawler Weapon

Choose a melee weapon that you are intensely familiar with and describe it. This may be a pair of bladed gauntlets, brass knuckles, or something similar. You start with this weapon in addition to your other starting equipment. You are proficient with this weapon and can use it as a brawler weapon for features that require one. Select an appropriate damage type for this weapon from bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. If this weapon is lost or destroyed, you can replace it over the course of a long rest at the cost of 5 gp in materials.

This weapon is attached to your wrists and cannot be disarmed. You can use an action to equip or unequip it. You still count as having a free hand if you have a donned glove.

round herald
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monks are martial arts, they use kicks, elbows, and knees in a well refined manner

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brawlers still use all those but without the grace

unreal crypt
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monks have a level of mysticism to them that enables them to do damage with their fists, and also focus on rapid attacks. to me this is a compromise in how the flavor of a brawler gets put across

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they’ve got some nasty fist weapons and know how to beat the shit out of you

round herald
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"Grace and mysticism is for cowards. I'm gonna kick yer teeth in."

unreal crypt
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fighters have training and experience and still use weapons

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brawlers wrap their hands in glass

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you know?

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adds some grit and oomph

cyan trout
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My suggestion:

Brawler Weapon

You start with a melee weapon in addition to your starting equipment, known as your brawler weapon, and you are proficient with it.

Your brawler weapon is a glove like weapon that can have any design you want: a pair of padded gloves, bladed gauntlets, brass knuckles, or anything in that style. The weapon deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, as appropriate to the design you chose.

It takes an action to don or doff this weapon in one or both hands, and you can't be disarmed of it. You can wield other objects and weapons with it, as well as donning or doffing a shield. (However, your attacks with a weapon other than your brawler weapons have disadvantage).

You can craft a new brawler weapon over the course of a long rest at the cost of 5 gp in materials.

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The parenthesis is something in case you want to add it

cyan trout
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And center it around your brawler weapon

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If it's the same damage, it will depend on how the player wants to roleplay

round herald
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Brawler Weapon

You start with a melee weapon in addition to your starting equipment. You are proficient with this weapon and it counts as a brawler weapon for features that require one.

Your brawler weapon is a glove-like weapon that may be a pair of bladed gauntlets, brass knuckles, or something similar. Choose an appropriate damage type that your weapon does based on your design from bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing.

It takes an action to don or doff this weapon in one or both hands and it can't be disarmed. You can wield other objects and weapons with a hand you have a donned glove, but you have disadvantage on attacks with other weapons.

You can craft a new brawler weapon over the course of a long rest at the cost of 5 gp in materials.

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i mostly just changed around some of the wording

cyan trout
round herald
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yep fair

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good change

round herald
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minmaxers be damned

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if they want to take the roleplaying out of roleplaying games, then who am i to stop them

cyan trout
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A sword guy being no different from an axe guy does take away some inspiration for your roleplay

round herald
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maybe scale damage dice down by one and have a glove weapon deal an extra 1d4?

cyan trout
round herald
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(and then i'll rework the crit range feature)

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fair

#

i think for the way i want brawler played, it's fine as is. i made this class with a character in mind and it fits

#

it doesn't punish players for bare-knuckle boxing, but it allows for reflavoring into pimplord brass knucks

#

or gladitorial cestus combat

cyan trout
#

I love the cestus

#

And I liked the Cestus manga

#

(At least the first half)

round herald
#

not familiar with the manga lol

cyan trout
round herald
#

pog

#

i think i'll add the current Iron Will to Resilient Flow and drop the advantage on Dex

#

mm no

#

the longevity Iron Will provides is too valuble for especially that early level brawler

#

maybe put Hail Mary on 6th level and tag on the magical fists?

#

or outright remove a feature to free up space?

#

i think keeping three features on level 2 is fine? you effectively get a flavor feature for level one

#

and paladin also has 2 features level 1 then 3 level 2

cyan trout
#

Yes, there can be some exceptions to the rule

#

Within reason

round herald
#

yea. if Brawler Weapon gave some kind of damage boost or benefit beyond choosing which type of damage you deal, then maybe i'd have to drop a feature

#

as is tho i think it's fine

cyan trout
#

I read a bit yesterday

  • There are some formatting issues in the first page
  • In the class table it still accounts for the benefits of Flow State at 1st level (even if you dob't get it)
  • Iron Will could just be contained inside Flow State
  • So far only the weapons you craft are both gloves and your brawler's weapons. If that's intended, then you don't need to give it proficiencies with gloves in the weapon proficiencies AND currently Flow State doesn't work with other weapons
cyan trout
#

Also, Hail Mary is bad, you are actually losing damage.

#

And when you are in Flow it's not that worth it either

#

GWM uses a -5/+10 and barely increases avg dmg by 1

#

(Taking to hit chance into account)

#

One easy fix is adding another brawler die to the damage

round herald
round herald
#

also, gonna change critical strike a little bit. when balancing it, i forgot to take into account the number of attacks brawler gets compared to barb (3 vs 2 unless Berserker barb)

#

probably going to just remove the extra damage die it gives

#

i'll have to run the numbers later tonight

cyan trout
round herald
#

yea i loaded it up today and noticed it was off

cyan trout
cyan trout
#

I feel barbs get Critical Strike to justify Reckless Attack

#

And not because of the number of attacks or the extra damage itself

#

Such a late feature too

round herald
round herald
cyan trout
cyan trout
round herald
round herald
cyan trout
#

I just mean it in general

#

Whether it's from barbarian or something else

#

Critical Strike is uninspired and a place holder for better abilities or very thematic ones

#

The chances of a crit is 0.05 percent of extra damage, neither a substantial nor reliable upgrade

#

It's an ok upgrade, but it shouldn't be a class feature

#

Imagine a feat that directly upgrades the die you roll on crit by your PB

round herald
#

so i just ran the numbers and i think i need to nerf it somewhere

#

i compared average damage per turn of barbarian, fighter, and brawler at levels 1, 5, 9, 11, 13, 17, and 20 under these conditions:

  • AC 16
  • 1d12 weapon or brawler weapon
  • No feats
  • No subclass features
  • Class features considered (no action surge, reckless attack, or hail mary)
#

Barbarian assumed raging, fighter has great weapon fighter, brawler assumed flow state

#

Barbarian/Fighter/Brawler (dmg/turn)

Level 1: 8.425 vs 7.687 vs 5.275
Level 5: 18.2 vs 16.61 vs 21.15
Level 9: 21.6 vs 17.84 vs 26.85
Level 11: 21.6 vs 26.76 vs 29.55
Level 13: 23.7 vs 28.61 vs 33.08
Level 17: 27.4 vs 30.46 vs 42.6
Level 20: 34.1 vs 40.61 vs 42.6

#

Brawler goes to

Level 1: 5.275
Level 5: 21.15
Level 9: 25.5
Level 11: 27.9
Level 13: 30.6
Level 17: 38.7
Level 20: 38.7
without the extra crit die. still pretty far ahead of the curve

#

(in levels 5-17)

cyan trout
#

Does this take Hail Mary into account?

round herald
#

no

#

nor reckless attack

#

(i updated the original message)

#

if i drop the 1/2 prof bonus damage from flow state, it looks like it might level the curve

#

(keeping crit die)

cyan trout
#

Just to be clear, are brawler weapons only your gloves?

round herald
#

yea

cyan trout
#

Also, just so you know, anti magic field cancels your Unstoppable

round herald
#

does it?

#

tbf, anti magic field cancels entire classes anyways

round herald
#

brawler is last at level 1
leads for levels 5-9
middles for levels 11-13
takes lead again for level 17
then middles at level 20

#

(middles behind fighter)

#

hail mary skyrockets damage at later levels even with a -5

Level 1: -
Level 5: 24.15
Level 9: 29.7
Level 11: 35.78
Level 13: 38.93
Level 17: 49.65
Level 20: 49.65

#

reckless attack doesn't come close to that damage spike

cyan trout
#

I didn't notice it before, but the combo between BA attack and extra damage might be the issue

round herald
#

BA attack?

cyan trout
#

bonus action

round herald
#

ah, yea. i was factoring that in

#

i'm thinking we drop the extra damage flow state gives for something else utility

cyan trout
#

As it shuts down your whole "my fists are so strong they pierce your defense"

round herald
#

maybe replace the extra damage with that and have a new level 6 skill?

cyan trout
round herald
#

fair

cyan trout
cyan trout
round herald
cyan trout
#

Makes the prone and grapple more accessible

cyan trout
round herald
#

(i like that feature lol)

#

current thoughts are dropping extra flow state damage and maybe Hail Mary, both in favor of something else that doesn't increase raw damage

#

current level 20 hail mary is equal to level 20 fighter with Great Weapon Master

#

(-5 hail mary)

#

(actually slightly behind GWM and GWF: 49.65 for HM vs 50.28)

#

***Brawler weapon also includes improvised weapons if your Roughhouser subclass

round herald
#

Maybe replace the extra damage with "Your proficiency bonus is doubled for Strength (Athletics) and Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks. If you are not proficient in one of the skills, you instead add your proficiency bonus to it."

cyan trout
#

I have read it and the first 2 subclasses

#

The more the class progresses, the more uninspired it becomes

#

Mechanically speaking, it doesn't do anything to separate itself from either monk or barbarian

#

The Rough House subclass has some interesting ideas, which I believe should be part of the main class instead.

round herald
#

i followed the formula of fighter and barbarian for the later levels. they don't add new mechanics, but instead expand on previous ones in relatively simple ways

#

as for roughhouser, i assume you mean the Sweep the Leg and People's Elbow features?

cyan trout
#

The features are good balance wise, I think. The problem the class faces is that, it doesn't have essence, an identity. I like that it's a non-magical fist fighter, but in my case that's not a strong enough hook to make me want to play it.

#

Like, currently, what it does, you could probably accomplish it with some fighter using an official build.

#

It needs something, it lacks pizzazz

#

It doesn't need to be fantastical powers, but something flashy

#

(More importantly, it should focus on fighting dirty, since that's the essence of street fighting)

#

You have good ideas, but the execution is lacking. For instance, a state you enter with temporary hit points and you can extend by spending Hit Die is very interesting, but the benefits don't give it justice.

#

Dogpile is also interesting, not many people venture in that area. But now that I think about it, it would make more sense if you push someone towards an ally, which triggers the opportunity attack. Like when you push someone to your friend, then he pushes to another friend and so on.

round herald
#

pocket sand

dreamy summit
#

On a tanget you shouldn't run with hit dice or points as a resource

round herald
round herald
round herald
#

Pocket Sand

You can use take a bonus action to throw debris at other creatures. The area you affect consists of up to three contiguous 5-foot cubes within 5 feet of you which you can arrange. Each creature in the area must succeed on a Constitution saving throw (DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity modifier) or be blinded until the end of its next turn. Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you use it again.

round herald
#

Dropkick

If you move at least 10 feet straight toward a target then attack it with an unarmed strike or brawler weapon on the same turn, you can drop prone as part of the attack. If you do, you can roll one of the damage die an addition time an add it to the damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier) or be pushed 5 feet away and knocked prone.

cyan trout
#

I like these

#

But why Dropkick doesn't have limited uses like PS?

#

Also, what levels are these going to be?

unreal crypt
#

these are both great additions to separate from punchy guy

#

kidney shot

#

twisting arms

#

stomping toes

#

dick kick

#

Judo throws

round herald
round herald
cyan trout
cyan trout
round herald
#

especially if you're skirmisher subclass, who gets an extra 10ft of movement

#

yea, probably best to limit uses

cyan trout
#

I mean, it's an awesome build that would usually take you 8 levels to achieve

#

Incredibly rewarding. It's a shame, but we have to limit it.

unreal crypt
#

or just make it an action

#

instead of part of an attack

#

it’s a bit more damage but more conditional than a grapple + shove

cyan trout
#

Eeeehhhh, maybe

round herald
#

If you move at least 10 feet straight toward a target, you can take an action to drop prone. If you do, ...

cyan trout
#

It is a Constitution save tho

unreal crypt
#

strength

cyan trout
#

Sorry, got my cables mixed

round herald
#

the attack also has to hit

cyan trout
#

If you go for the action, maybe not make it an attack

round herald
#

i don't know if you've ever been hit by a dropkick, but

#

they hurt

cyan trout
#

I didn't say no damage

#

I said no attack

round herald
#

also it's really easy to miss a dropkick if your opponent is competent

unreal crypt
#

I’d agree, attack roll plus STR check is too much

cyan trout
unreal crypt
#

unless you always move them and only prone on a roll fail

round herald
#

i think we're over thinking this. i feel that how i've originally worded it fits the functionality of an actual dropkick

unreal crypt
#

it’s too strong to go unlimited as is

cyan trout
#

It was an interesting alternative

unreal crypt
#

IMO

#

so X per short rest is probably the way to go if you want it to be part of an attack

round herald
#

i agree

#

x = con mod is what i'm thinking

cyan trout
#

You get to use whatever a number of times equal to... With a DC equal to... At levels this and that you get...

round herald
#

i like the idea in theory, but i don't think stepping on the toes of Battle Master is going to help our identity crisis

cyan trout
#

Mmmmhhhh, kinda

#

The "maneuver" structure is easy to implement, the rest depends on how you copy from it

#

Rogues that use Sneak Attack for debuffs instead of damage, monks with ki features, all that jazz

round herald
#

i think primarily we should focus on replacing Critical Strike, Titanium Resolve, and Hail Mary first. i'm pretty happy with many of the rest of the features

cyan trout
#

The core is the same, but they are implemented really different

round herald
unreal crypt
#

what if you replaced critical strike with exploding 1s on damage dice?

#

how would that math out?

round herald
#

reroll 1's?

unreal crypt
#

and add the result

cyan trout
round herald
#

oh so like exploding 6's in 40k

unreal crypt
#

exactly, sustained hits

round herald
#

hmm

unreal crypt
#

I don’t know the numbers

#

but it’s a different way to add damage

#

more consistently but ideally less powerful

round herald
#

1's become 2-9/11/13 damage

unreal crypt
#

crit is a bummer because it doesn’t activate that often

#

this is a way to make it pop more often

round herald
#

(you saw nothing)

cyan trout
#

You should consider it if you need to fill space

round herald
#

i'll keep it in mind, i'll have to run the numbers on it tho

#

i'm sorry if i've been dismissive. it's been a bit disheartening having my class broken down like this, but i understand the reasons and necessity

cyan trout
unreal crypt
#

translating something cool in your head to balanced on paper is really hard

#

even harder to have it stay fun and cool by the end

unreal crypt
#

I guess it depends on your philosophy behind the feature

#

do you want it to win more or lose less?

#

amplify happiness or mitigate sadness?

round herald
#

the criticism of critical strike is it's a boring feature. i'm looking to replace it as such but damage output needs to remain about the same. as was, it was running on par with fighter output

#

i'll have to figure out how to even run the numbers on exploding 1's, but that could work

cyan trout
#

"When you roll a 1 or 6 on a d6 you explode"

#

And say nothing more

round herald
#

now we're stepping into israeli law

#

alright, let me work some numbers and i'll get back

round herald
#

@cyan trout @unreal crypt i have numbers for exploding 1's

Barbarian/Fighter/Brawler (dmg/turn)

Level 9: 21.6 vs 17.84 vs 21.89
Level 11: 21.6 vs 26.76 vs 24.11
Level 13: 23.7 vs 28.61 vs 25.77
Level 17: 27.4 vs 30.46 vs 29.96
Level 20: 34.1 vs 40.61 vs 29.96

#

assumptions:

  • AC 16
  • 1d12 weapon or brawler weapon
  • No feats
  • No subclass features
  • Class features considered (no action surge, reckless attack, or hail mary)
  • Barb raging / Fighter GWF / Brawler Flow State
  • STR 20
cyan trout
#

Can you explain me what a exploding dice is?

round herald
#

if you roll a 1, you roll an additional damage die an add it to the damage

cyan trout
#

Infinitely?

round herald
#

(this replaces critical strike)

#

once

unreal crypt
#

hmm, lower than I thought

round herald
#

i mean, it replaces the damage range from (at level 9) 1-8 to 2-9

#

if we explode on max damage, it'd raise it i'm sure

#

it doesn't... hmm

cyan trout
#

Still, pretty on par with other classes

round herald
#

with the exception of level 20

cyan trout
#

Because capstone

round herald
#

currently just lets flow state be for as long as you're standing

cyan trout
#

Yes, but that isn't a meaningful capstone

#

It's virtually worse than monk's

round herald
#

i mean, i disagree?

#

i'm not going to say it's strong, but it does still have its merits

cyan trout
#

It has great use, I don't disagree

#

I don't think it's impactful duration wise. You now don't have to rely of your Hit Die

#

But at that level, I have the idea you don't need them anymore

#

Because of so much healing access, damage reduction abilities, and whatever else.

round herald
#

that's fair. currently might also have too many flow state charges

cyan trout
#

Consider you have on average 6 to 8 encounters per day

round herald
#

fair

unreal crypt
#

what if you added 2 dice at a later level on a 1? or exploded on 2s as well?

#

if you like exploding that could work

cyan trout
round herald
#

you'd have to explode twice and explode on 2's to match Barb at level 20

cyan trout
#

Appropriate capstone then

#

In on itself

#

Mmmmhhhh, alternatively, you could make your brawler die a 2d6?

#

I don't recall the progression

#

Let me check

unreal crypt
#

well then, do you want to match them in damage? or make up for it in other ways?

round herald
#

probably matching barb at least. martials fall off at later levels as is

cyan trout
#

I always thought this progression was ugly, but if it works for you...

round herald
#

2d10 makes it 42.86/turn which is greater than fighter

#

that's only exploding once on 1's

cyan trout
#

If you don't have an issue with it you should go for it

#

I really don't mind whether one martial deals more or less damage. It's about the other factors surrounding it

#

Of course if it can be kept within a range that's much better.

round herald
#

i think with the amount of utility it has, we should probably keep raw damage between barb and fighter

cyan trout
#

Also, did you consider Dropkick damage for the math?

round herald
#

nope

#

i assumed you took two regular attacks and a bonus action attack

#

which actually...

#

bonus action is pretty hotly contested in this class. using it for damage isn't always the option

cyan trout
#

Dropkick would be a great set up, and I can see you use it at least once per turn.

cyan trout
#

Dropkick for instance, once per turn, not only grants a slight damage boost, it grants advantage on your next 2 attacks.

#

Eeeehhhh... About a 50% chance of failing the save, but still.

round herald
#

that math becomes nigh impossible to calculate. i've ignored dropkick for the same reason i've ignored reckless attack and action surge

#

(reckless attack is the easiest to calculate but still)

#

if we do 2d6, exploding once on 1's and 2's, average damage goes to 35.80, beating out barb

#

makes a funky graph too

image.png
cyan trout
#

Well, advantage isn't that hard to calculate. Although I have heard of 3 different ways:

  • Equals a +5
  • Actually equals a +3
  • Some simple math formula I can't remember
round herald
#

it's a +3.325

cyan trout
#

You could ignore the failing rate of the save and assume it always fail. Because I'm not sure if multiplying the hit chance by 0,5 is how it's done

cyan trout
round herald
#

for any one result, yes

#

but when calculating averages, i can use the 3.325 for more accurate results

cyan trout
#

I said that when all the averages we use to calculate take a 0.5 before rounding down

round herald
#

let me have a think about this

round herald
#

i can't get a perfect answer for you, but i'm estimating dropkick increases damage output to about 39/turn when it fails

#

(exploding 1's and 2's on 2d6)

#

then ~45/turn when it succeeds

#

these are some pretty rough estimates

#

with limited uses on Dropkick, i think that's fine considering barb's infinite reckless attack and fighter's action surge

cyan trout
#

I thought you would run it down without the improved exploding dice

round herald
#

i'd forgotten to update my equation until i was halfway through figuring the numbers so i went with it

#

i think going with the 2d6 is better if we're exploding. it makes the chance much higher

cyan trout
#

So, what's the new version going to be? Dropkick + Better exploding kittens + 2d6 as capstone?

round herald
#

dropkick can probably be like level 13 or something

#

but better

#

and 2d6 are capstone yea

#

maybe keeping flow state lasting til KO'd as well?

cyan trout
cyan trout
#

Or literally when KO only

round herald
#

as is lol

#

keeping that, then giving exploding 2's and 2d6

cyan trout
#

Mmmmhhhh, idk

#

I really think it adds nothing

#

But that's me

round herald
#

yea that's fair

#

Pocket Sand replaces Hail Mary (level 2)
Explosive Power replaces Critical Strike (level 9)
Drop Kick replaces Critical Strike (level 13)

#

Better Explosive Power replaces Perfect Flow (level 20)

#

just need something for 17th level now

cyan trout
#

Uhm...

#

Let's read Ane's list again

cyan trout
#

Ok, the Grab his Dick and Twist it feature

round herald
#

ah yes, the ol' twisty dick

unreal crypt
#

dick kick / cunt punt would be great feature names if you didn't already have a drop kick

#

kidney shot could be a good one

#

you make a hit at disadvantage and if you hit, all attacks have advantage against that target or something

cyan trout
#

As a side note. I believe the way to calculate the damage with Dropkick should be:

(avg dmg) x (normal hit chance) + (avg dmg) x (adv% x failed save chance)

#

For any attack after the first

#

(Because the first one triggers it)

cyan trout
#

Oh, wait

#

Low Blow

round herald
#

creature becomes stunned

cyan trout
#

Mmmmmhhhhh

#

I suggest not

#

A class with stunning is so troublesome

#

I speak from monk's experience

round herald
#

fair, but a swift kick to the gonads leaves me stunned for sure

cyan trout
#

Skill issue

dreamy summit
cyan trout
dreamy summit
#

ig

cyan trout
#

Because then it's the default option that pretty much eats every other one

#

Why drop kick or sand when nut?

dreamy summit
dreamy summit
cyan trout
round herald
#

1/2 prof bonus?

#

/long rest

cyan trout
unreal crypt
#

I would agree, a smaller debuff is probably better

#

more frequently applied

round herald
#

well, at level 17 there's no scaling so ig that'd just be 3

dreamy summit
round herald
#

hmm

dreamy summit
cyan trout
#

Immediatly

#

And reduce to 0 the dmg of that enemy

dreamy summit
round herald
#

can't take reaction/disadvantage on attacks?

dreamy summit
#

could work

cyan trout
#

Yeah

dreamy summit
#

Oh and one more effect
Battlemaster's disarming strike

cyan trout
#

You spend half movement speed for a low blow. If you get up from prone, you don't need to spend that movement speed

#

So you Dropkick and nut punch

#

Johnny Cage would be proud

dreamy summit
round herald
#

now, dex save or con save?

cyan trout
round herald
cyan trout
round herald
#

Con is what i'm thinking too - there are some mf who can tank a thunder to the grundle and i'm scared of those folks

dreamy summit
#

Con save for conditions probably yeah

round herald
#

i don't think any effect imposes two separate saving throws as far as i know

dreamy summit
round herald
#

ahh, gotcha

cyan trout
round herald
#

i'm gonna go get food and we'll continue our brain blasts when i'm back

round herald
cyan trout
round herald
#

Low Blow

When you make an attack against a creature with an unarmed strike or brawler weapon on your turn, you can expend half of your movement. If you do and the attack hits, it must succeed a Constitution saving throw (DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier). On a failed save, until the end of its next turn, it can't take reactions, has disadvantage on attack rolls, and drops any items it is holding. The object or objects land at its feet. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Dexterity modifier. You regain any expended uses when you finish a long rest.

If you stand up from prone and use this feature on the same turn without moving or attacking in between, you do not have to expend half of your movement to use it.

#

this actually synergizes really well with Dropkick. run in 10ft, dropkick, crawl 5ft (costs 10), then stand up into nut shot for last 20ft of movement

#

or roughhouser's People's Elbow

unreal crypt
#

dex mod number of uses feels weird

#

does it feel right to you?

round herald
#

it was either that or (half) prof bonus

#

i don't want to use strength because landing a kick to the testes isn't just about how hard you kick, it's also about how well you place the foot

dreamy summit
unreal crypt
#

what level is this? 17?

round herald
#

17

#

kinda weird, but maybe only works once per creature?
also, has no effect on undead or constructs

unreal crypt
#

immune for 24 hours and no limit is a reasonable option

cyan trout
#

By wording I understand half your current speed and not total

round herald
#

ah yea, should throw in the word total

dreamy summit
cyan trout
round herald
#

no, but you're wiser to the tricks

cyan trout
round herald
cyan trout
round herald
#

fair

#

|| denji || made it work even after announcing it

cyan trout
#

I never thought there would be a day where I could use "Skill issue" unironically

round herald
#

god i'm slow

#

i just got it

cyan trout
round herald
#

yea it's mind games

cyan trout
#

Sun Tzu said that

round herald
#

when i eventually play test this, i'm 100% gonna announce to an enemy i'm gonna introduce them to Dick Kickem

cyan trout
round herald
#

and he's all out of nuts

cyan trout
#

And he's all out of kicks

round herald
#

goddammit

#

"A battle is not truly won until you teabag the enemy" - Sun Tzu, probably

#

alright how're we limiting this shit

dreamy summit
dreamy summit
round herald
#

ass

round herald
dreamy summit
#

/jk

round herald
#

real?

unreal crypt
#

once per SR is fine

round herald
#

yea that's what i made it

#

"If you use this feature on a construct, it takes no damage and you take 1d6 bludgeoning damage" lmao

#

(not actually gonna add that)

cyan trout
cyan trout
round herald
#

you take 1d6 psychic damage

cyan trout
#

And this new cool undiscovered disease