Magmyte's Volatile Laboratory

[tender cape]

This is where I'll be posting any sort of miscellaneous items or docs or what-have-you to share. There will most likely not be any sort of rhyme or reason to the things I create. They may be exceptionally mundane, or they may be ludicrously insane. Don't expect everything here to be finished either. Regardless, any and all feedback is appreciated.

first things on the docket: a couple of subs

a ranger subclass about resummoning the spirits of the recently deceased and having them fight for you
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-Ncvh3BkI4en5AtKuUJC

a rogue subclass about becoming the horror movie monster of your nightmares, spreading fear and terror from the shadows
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-NcN2ZazWoamqEzrlLWg

a fighter subclass about sailing the high seas with your ghostly compatriots, living to the fullest... at least for those still alive, that is
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-NeCJQAhZ_ysZyvQpbRU

a barbarian subclass about a pun and a completely different TTRPG
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-Nd0QUAoyYQxBKj6zzGD

and earlier today, when the topic of multiple bonus actions was brought up, it inspired me to do a little thought experimentation, so I spit this out just to see if I could
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-NnqMT__kVGVzX5v_abk

generally speaking, Rogue Revamped was a mild experiment to create a variant on 5e's rogue that was more competent in combat and had more compelling/engaging gameplay without losing out on rogue's identity as "the expert class"/"the skill monkey class" and without forcing the player to choose from a boatload of options and customizations (like some other rogue variants out there, although no shade on them; some people really dig that thing, like me). it's also meant to be fully compatible with already preexisting/published 5e rogue subs, and hopefully most other rogue-adjacent material

"changelog" from vanilla 5e rogue:

• Expertise gets an additional two proficiencies at 10th level
• Sneak Attack gets reworded slightly for ease of modifying later
• Cunning Action gets reworded as a choice to be taken each time it is used
• Devious Action is a new 6th level feature that gives additional choices for Cunning Action
• Deft Instincts is a new 10th level feature that replaces Blindsense that improves at 15th and 20th levels. it also gives a bonus to initiative rolls equal to PB
• the ASI at 10th level is removed
• Improved Cunning is a new 11th level feature that gives an additional BA to only be used for Cunning Action
• Deadly Action is a new 14th level feature that gives additional choices for Cunning Action
• Extraordinary Talent is a new 14th level feature that replaces Reliable Talent
• Mental Acuity is a slightly adjusted Slippery Mind that gives proficiency in all three mental saves
• Stroke of Luck gives a +20 bonus to any ability check, attack roll, damage roll, or saving throw, and can be used DEX times per LR

i'll fill in flavor text later, as well as the three listed subs that are already in the doc, which i consider to be rogue subs that are wanting for one reason or another

[unkempt river]

Are you removing steady aim?

Or are you still considering it optional

[tender cape]

considering it optional for the time being

i'm not too particularly keen on re-adding it since there are more options to get advantage on the attack via Devious Action

[unkempt river]

Devious action is quite strong to be fair

Especially knocking prone on a bonus action

Before your attack

Improved Cunning is pretty insane

Love it

[tender cape]

i wanted to add an offensive feature there because it's surrounded by defensive or utility or ribbon features on both sides, and rogue subs have that big gap from 3rd to 9th level

[unkempt river]

Kinda feels like it focuses on enabling your allies now

Through all these new cunning actions

Whereas before it was mostly capitalising off your allies

You have the setup and payoff rolled into one

Also uh

Mental Acuity gives Int saves

But you already have em

[tender cape]

multiclassing

[unkempt river]

Ah

Very valid

Also just kinda feels like an odd feature though

All 3?

[tender cape]

for 1, it's all three mental saves in the 5.5e rogue playtests
for 2, it's one strong save (which already was the case in original 5e rogue) and two weak saves

[unkempt river]

I suppose so

Just don't really see the flavour

[tender cape]

and you're very likely to only get +2 profs instead of all 3 because chances are you are prof in one of them already

the flavor is about rogues having really hard to breach minds no matter the situation

PF2e does this too with a feat called "cognitive loophole" where if somebody captures you with a mental effect (Will save), you can create a loophole in your mind that prevents you from being affected from the mental effect on your next turn

[unkempt river]

Not sure how that makes

Any sense

But sure

Guess I just don't get it lol

Either way fun rogue rework

Quite like it

[tender cape]

well it's pretty consistent throughout published versions of rogues. they lock up their minds metaphorically really well

huh, look at that. it's even called Slippery Mind in PF2e as well

[tender cape]

man, i really want to add CHA (Stealth) checks here because it would make sense to do such a thing to blend into a crowd. but i know it's only a variant rule

[tender cape]

okay, got an update in for rogue revamped

• Extraordinary Talent no longer applies to initiative rolls. had to double check the rules on this one and yeah, it basically would've let you auto-roll nat 20s on every initiative, so whoops
• new Assassin Revamped subclass, which features the following:
• Assassinate is changed to apply all of its effects to creatures who haven't taken a turn yet, but auto-crits is replaced with increasing Sneak Attack damage die to d12s. this should be less swingy in its effect, being more consistently applicable but less potent
• Tools of the Professional replaces Bonus Proficiencies, and also gives advantage to certain CHA checks to stay disguised. this also serves as a replacement for Infiltration Expert and Imposter (sus)
• Toxicologist is a new 9th level feature that gives additional choices for Cunning Action
• Unseen Killer is a new 13th level feature that allows you to ignore poison resistance, and improves the save DC of poisons you craft
• Death Strike has its wording slightly touched, but no functional changes
• new Thief Revamped subclass, which features the following:
• Smash and Grab is a new 3rd level feature that allows you to disarm targets of your Sneak Attack
• Fast Hands is slightly reworded to fit better with reworded Cunning Action. also, it can be used to do anything with traps and locks rather than only disarming traps and unlocking locks
• Breaking and Entering is a new 9th level feature that replaces Second-Story Work. it provides a climbing speed and allows you to use DEX in place of STR for your athletics checks and jumping
• Supreme Sneak is removed

[peak niche]

I feel like if the goal is to try to make them more into a debuffing class than a damage dealing class, I would suggest adding rider effects to sneak attack

so the idea is that although sneak attack does notably less damage than extra attack and has conditions to it, you can apply a debuff onto an enemy when you land it

I feel like this is what is trying to be done with devious action though its a shame thats it constantly competing with rogue's og cunning action choices imo

as part of the appeal of rogue is the mobility or the abiltiy to hide in the middle of combat

doing somethign like bg3 does where rogue gets 2 bonus actions but at a much earlier level could be an interesting way to make it compete less

with devious action having a once per turn limitation

[tender cape]

sneak attack riders are generally something i relegate to subclass features, and it adds to the dissatisfaction when you miss the sneak attack. sneak attack is already a pretty loaded "all or nothing" feature

that's also not to mention that there is a high probability of having an instance in which you want to debuff one enemy but use sneak attack on another. if you were forced to trip the target you sneak attack, but your sneak attack kills the creature, you don't get to trip anybody

[tender cape]

the competition with the standard cunning action choices is intentional. even though you can get two cunning actions per turn, you can't use the same one twice and you can't get the benefits of all cunning actions at the same time. so you have to choose which ones you want to use at that moment of the game

if a player felt like they could remain within melee range without suffering a large penalty, i would say let them do so and be rewarded for taking the risk. but also on the other hand, if they feel threatened for being too close and would rather stay further away, it's not like the 2nd level cunning action choices have been removed from their options

[peak niche]

I guess I help remedy this in my homebrew by giving rogues at level 5 expertise in certain weapon choices, making them the most accurate martial

I also feel there really isn't anything major here to change the role of a rogue

I wouldn't really say this new rogue a debuffer as I feel like thats not where most of their contribution lies

[tender cape]

then where does it lie?

[peak niche]

I wouldn't say it doesn't really change a ton from 5e, as I feel like the debuffing needs to have a generally higher impact on the class
I do like the halved spedd debuff the most, as I feel like thats the most potentially impactful as you can halve an enemy's speed from far away and then if they are a melee enemy, their turn might be pretty completely wasted cause they also can't dash

[tender cape]

that's a possibility, yes

[tender cape]

got a Scout Revamped here. i would do flavor text but i really gotta sleep. anyway, the update:

• Scout Revamped:
• Skirmisher is removed
• Survivalist is removed
• Eagle-Eyed Marksman is a new 3rd level feature that gives proficiency with heavy crossbows and longbows, as well as a new way to apply Sneak Attack
• Experienced Tracker is a new 3rd level feature that replaces Superior Mobility. it also removes disadvantage on WIS perception checks due to light obscurement
• Eye For Detail is a new 9th level feature that gives additional choices for Cunning Action
• Ambush Master is reworked entirely. you cannot be surprised, and you can use your action on your first turn in combat to give everybody else advantage on attack rolls for 1 round
• Sudden Strike is removed
• Perfect Aim is a new 17th level feature that prevents your attacks from having disadvantage

[tender cape]

another sizeable update to rogue revamped. updates are

• Thief Revamped's Breaking and Entering has a final addition where you can use your Cunning Action save DC for the adventuring gear you use. this will make more sense later on
• brand new Roughhouser subclass, which features the following:
• proficiency with improvised and martial melee weapons, and the ability to sneak attack with unarmed strikes and all melee weapons
• grapples, shoves, and dazing with Cunning Action
• extra unarmed strike as part of the Attack action
• Second Wind-like THP gain that shifts your saving throw proficiencies
• new Shadow of Dread subclass that is an adaption of my original Shadow of Dread subclass. it features the following:
• create fear in your foes, and lurk in the shadows
• take advantage of the shadows to bolster your own frightful power
• teach them the meaning of "paralyzed with fear"
• new adventuring gear tailored for rogues, but really anybody can use them. Thief rogues especially since they can take the Use an Object action with Cunning action
• some items include bolas, cloaks, poisons, garrotes, poppers and tripwires

for now, I'll be working on adding more rogue subs, possibly the Swashbuckler and a brand new Chameleon, as well as new rogue adventuring gear

[tender cape]

some ideas for the Chameleon sub

[peak niche]

for me the aoe damage one is the least exciting

the damage is pretty roll(2d6 without half on a save) and i dont think it makes a ton of sense for the subclass from the vibes im getting from it

the surprise probably makes the most straight forward sense while the aoe shock is an interesting sort of spread chaos ability, kinda depends on what you want the main function of the subclass to be

[unkempt river]

Why not use the surprised condition

Also what's the flavour for the AoE damage

Kinda feels weird that you get to damage the bystanders before you get to shock them

Feels like shock evolving to damage would be a more natural progression

[peak niche]

since the surprise one is a save or suck and dc is based on tertiary stat, id probably prefer the shock one cause its more consistent

[tender cape]

according to the basic rules, surprised only affects a creature's first turn in combat

[unkempt river]

I thought it's a condition that prevents a creature from taking actions or reactions

Baldur's gate is messing with my brain

[kind vault]

It's a pseudo condition that is not really one.
Just to be helpful.

Surprise
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other.

The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.

If it was an actual condition, it'd be a bit more straight forward xD

[tender cape]

that last paragraph was what i was referring to

and some text treat surprised like it was a condition (e.g. assassin rogue assassinate)

this is what i currently have for the entire sub. there's definitely more magic in here than the standard rogue sub but i'm okay with it
i'm also not done with the 13th level feature. i like the direction that i currently have going for it, i just want to push it more

and yes, the capstone is a mix between programmed illusion and project image

[foggy totem]

Extra damage and new sneak attack condition work well thematically IMO.
Inflict surprised-lite is also pretty neat.
Mechanically though I worry the extra damage will just be a basic buff and the new sneak attack condition is too weak to be a feature on its own, and like the AOE shock effect as martials don't have many AOEs or good support options, both of which this provides.

[tender cape]

well that's just the process of brainstorming. you throw in ideas, even ones you think are bad, just to compare them to the others

i am definitely leaning towards "surprise-lite" and "shock" myself, and that paired with the disguise kit proficiency, advantage on CHA checks, and disguise self at will should make for a solid suite of 3rd level features at least until 9th level

but i'm also coming into this with the full expectation that someone picking this sub is much more invested in a social roleplay game than a combat arbitrator game

[foggy totem]

Yes, agree.
That'd probably mean avoiding direct-damage abilities in favor and (flavor?) of abilities like the surprise and AOE shock.

[tender cape]

okay, i think i've got the Chameleon sub in a way that I like it. I've updated the doc to reflect the new sub, but here's the full thing in an image anyway

[peak niche]

I think the subclass is pretty cool

the only thing I would personally change is rogue subclass progression

waiting till level 9 for your second subclass ability can be tedious

[tender cape]

i'm aware, but i stated somewhere up there that the intention is for this base class to be compatible with other published rogue subclasses, official or not

i know i redid a couple rogue subs anyway, but i had more reasons for changing those subs than just making them fit better with rogue revamped

[peak niche]

I more so just mean as a general rogue change

[tender cape]

a little funtime mini experiment as i dip my toes into the idea of a "barbarian revamped", here's what i mocked up for rage

but i do wonder if this could be made even simpler and trimmed down

alternate proposal: swap the advantage on attacks and damage on damage rolls between rage and reckless attack

[peak niche]

i dont think the exhaustion mechanic is really necessary

its like, SO MUCH of barbarian's abilities are tied to rage either directly or indrectly, and barbarbian is already arguably the weakest class in the game that I don't think its really needed at all even if you did buff rage to allow them to just have it more a minute

[foggy totem]

seconding this
neat but not worth it to have

[tender cape]

it's primarily a buffer against multiclass dipping

i have a few features later on that buffer and remove the penalty outright

i've also pushed the rage damage bonus up to match with PB, and barb's issues start at 6th level but it has a fantastic suite of 1st to 5th level features already

[peak niche]

I feel like it would just be better to remove it

its not as if dipping barb is overpowered or anything

[tender cape]

dipping barb makes a better barb than monoclassing barb is what i'm trying to address

[peak niche]

not in particular, rage damage and rages scale with barb level, and the best barb subclass, zealot has a damage increase that scales with barb level

if the problem is with dipping in general, you kinda need to just rework multiclassing then

i dont really like the design of making classes weaker in the early to mid game to discourage multiclassing

[tender cape]

no, it's well known that every barb sub, even zealot barb, has bad scaling past 6th level. rage damage bonus is just too slow, you can compare to base paladins who get +1d8 radiant on every melee attack with no condition at 11th when barbs get less than that (+4) at a later level (16th) on a condition (requires raging)

[peak niche]

tbf, barb is still doing notably more damage than paladins
its mainly the combo rages + reckless
you can dip barb 2 for reckless but without much rages and being a melee build, you are really shreding your health bar plus paladin wants to concentrate on bless anyway

paladin notably lacks an action free, strong accuracy boost for gwm like battlemaster or barbarians have

[tender cape]

"notably more damage than paladins"
"arguably the weakest class in the game"

these don't match up

[peak niche]

its cause paladin isnt good for its damage

paladin is on the lower end of damage dealers

its mainly strong for aura

damage isnt the only metric for comparing classes, barbarians do more damage than wizards, but wizard is still a drastically stronger class

barbarian's damage output actually isn't terrible, its mainly pretty weak cause it only does one thing which is damage though its not the best damage dealer and has a lot of impracalities in the way it deals damage

its melee locked, rages can end early, rages are a very limited resource and without rage reckless just melts your hp, your ac is pretty low

[tender cape]

paladins have good damage and they have a good aura which is what makes them a strong class. they have the full martial suite up to 5th level (fighting style, extra attack, heavy armor and shields), and they get a legitimate 11th level tier 3 boost that many martial classes lack (monks, rangers, rogues)

it's barely behind fighters' extra attack 2 at 11th

[peak niche]

but gunks and rangers are also just much better damage dealers than paladin

paladin as a damage dealer has the barbarian problems but without the strength of having on-command accuracy boosts for gwm

I wouldn't really call them good damage dealers at the end of the day, they can deal damage and its not trivial damage but compared to the main pinnacles of damage dealing like gunks, rangers, fighters, spirit guardian clerics, or conjue animals druid
they dont compare very well

what paladin does have is one of the best support abilities in the entire game and it has an easy time multiclassing into warlock and sorcerer for alternate contributions than damage

[tender cape]

gunks are not a fair metric for comparing DPR against because it's entirely dependent on your DM allowing firearms
and the entirety of the monk class is littered with issues that makes it the weakest class, not barbs. barbs have bad scaling post 5th. monks have practically none (tier 2 is when their ki starvation putters out and stops becoming an issue, at which point the effectiveness of having ki plateaus because it makes no difference if you have 1 or 10 ki left over when you rest)

rangers, fighters, clerics with spirit guardians, those are good DPR choices. conjure animals shephard druid is stupid and everybody knows this
but if you're just going to compare with the ceiling only, and not with the average output of the standard melee class, then ofc pallies are going to look bad. but against the average output of the standard melee class, pallies perform well

to go back to the topic on hand, i'm sticking to my guns about making barbs a less dippable class. some of that means nerfs in the early features, like feral instincts being swapped with danger sense. some of that means boosts in tiers 2+ to make barbs actually want to put more levels into barb past 3rd or 5th level

and it's not like barbs were struggling in tier 1 to begin with. they are one of the strongest classes when only considering tier 1 play

[peak niche]

gunks are still better with handcrosbows

plus as mentioned, if we compare melee classes

id still say melee ranger, melee fighter, or barbarian are soundly better than paladin

[peak niche]

also not sure if id agree with this

the at-will damage gap in tier 1 is very short

so picking a damage focused class just means you tend to do like 4 more dpr than a caster but no entangle, sleep, spike growth, web, bless, etc

and of course, the complete loss of out of combat utility

id say the strongest picks for tier 1 is like
wildfire druid, twilight cleric, abjuration wizard, and undeadlock

[tender cape]

rage BPS resistance affects nearly everything at tier 1, very few monsters at that level don't do BPS damage
combined with reckless attack, you functionally have roughly 25 to 50% extra EHP even after accounting for monsters having advantage on attacking you. and that's on top of having the best hit die in the game
and the tradeoff for giving up advantage when others attacking you is advantage on your attacks, like all of them. you are essentially more accurate than every other character in the game by 2nd level

[peak niche]

but that is also the level where you have the lowest amount of rages

also if you are using reckless, most of the benefits of rage actually diminish quickly

reckless is a huge dpr buff for enemies

[tender cape]

and i'm making it so you can rage as much as you want as long as you're willing to either put up with exhaustion or pace yourself

[peak niche]

hit dice is frankly a very negligble health increase in 5e

and your ac is pretty low

[peak niche]

is rage no longer a resource?

[tender cape]

did the feature ever say anything about daily use limits?

[peak niche]

i was not aware that was a noteworthy change, that certainly does help barb a lot

though i still really disagree that barb would be one of the strongest tier 1 picks

casters kinda rule tier 1 cause of how small the at-will damage gap is

and how powerful spells are

[tender cape]

well then mate consider reading what i've written and how it is different before assuming things about the things i've written

[peak niche]

alright I think this conversation isn't going anywhere

[tender cape]

combined with rage resistances it is still a net positive in improving your own survivability
https://tabletopbuilds.com/the-squishy-caster-fallacy/ (green "barbarians" text box)
that's why i'm not fundamentally changing AC calculations or resistances or the bonus that monsters get when reckless attacking. none of those are the issue, the issue is uptime
and i'm giving barbs more rage uptime with this change

[oak echo]

Rogue capstone: seems like a lot of uses, and not super exciting (by which I mean its very general). Powerful but lacking cool/wow factor isn’t a great place for any feature, but especially not capstones

style point: not much point introducing mod/R uses later than tier 2—whether ASM or PB—can just say 5 for all the difference it makes

[tender cape]

the original stroke of luck was even more bland and this iteration was designed to maintain its current design concept but make it significantly better so players are incentivized to actually take a rogue from 1 to 20

and i felt a +20 just worked better than turning a miss into a hit, or getting a nat 20 on an ability check (by which the game also doesn't necessarily treat as an auto success). it appeals to the monkey brain of "number go up"

I'm hesitant to bring it back down to 1/SR+LR because that puts it in the range of 3 times per day, or 1 at certain tables, but I could just do five if that's how you feel

actually, might be a middle ground here by taking the 3 uses from Lucky and then replenishing 1 per SR

[tender cape]

a draft for Swashbuckler Revamped, which features the following:

• Rakish Audacity no longer adds +CHA to initiative, and has been reworded to better fit reworded Sneak Attack
• Panache is now a WIS save instead of a CHA contest, and a bonus action instead of an action to better fit new Cunning Action. also, old Elegant Maneuver has been folded in
• Elegant Maneuver is completely changed to allow moving through spaces of hostile creatures instead
• Master Duelist is no longer a 1/SR+LR feature, and instead a 1/turn feature with no advantage like gloom stalker's 11th level feature

i've also added a few tweaks to some wordings here and there, and a new item: Smoke Bombs. the doc above has been updated to reflect these changes

[tender cape]

first draft of Mastermind Revamped is completed, which features the following:

• Master of Intrigue now includes all gaming sets instead of one, and allows you to copy everything from assassin's old Imposter feature instead of only speech
• Strategic Prodigy is a new 3rd level feature that functionally replaces Master of Tactics. the functionality is mostly the same, except if the attack lands, it deals extra damage equal to half your Sneak Attack
• Insightful Genius is the new name for Insightful Manipulator, and features new choices for Cunning Action
• Misdirection now has the majority of Soul of Deceit folded into it, so it is now both physical and mental misdirection instead of only physical
• Master of Tactics is the replacement for Soul of Deceit at 17th level and gives you another bonus action to use Cunning Action with. Masterminds are the most cunning of all rogues!

additionally, Assassinate in Assassin Revamped now reads "taken an action" instead of "taken a turn". this allows you to use the feature against surprised targets even if you roll lower than them in the initiative order
the doc has been updated to incorporate all of the above changes

[tender cape]

another update to Rogue Revamped. it's a smaller update this time, but the changes are as follows:

• all Cunning Action choices are now formatted and given names like Battle Master maneuvers. this should make them easier to parse and makes for better formatting anyway
• a couple of new adventuring gear items. all of these have been given finalized weights and prices in the table as well, so the list is finished... for now
• starter flavor text is completed
• there's a credit box at the very end now
  the doc has been updated to incorporate all of these changes
  I might add one final self-made subclass to this, but from here on out, the focus will be on adding art to the doc

[tender cape]

drafting a third pact caster sub for rogue

@cerulean isle @ocean bloom

[ocean bloom]

[cerulean isle]

Whomst hath summoned me

[tender cape]

my current brainstormed ideas are:

• dominate monster/puppeteering
• mass hysteria/mass enemies abound
• a better version of arcane trickster's spell thief

don't mind the really obvious edited image. it's formatted differently on my doc is why

[cerulean isle]

Are we spitballing ideas now

[tender cape]

i figured if i gave you the context for the rest of the sub, it would give you a sense of the direction i'm going in

[ocean bloom]

Honestly I think the warlock list isn't the best suited for a rogue

Warlocks have a lot of damage spells and rogues need utility spells

[cerulean isle]

Cause I just thought of "when you sneak attack, you can expend a spell slot and deal sneak attack damage to a number of creatures within X feet of the target equal to the level of the slot"

[tender cape]

that's a fair point. but i did think warlocky themes meshed much better with rogues than weezurdy themes

[ocean bloom]

Hm

The only other classes you could use are bard, druid and sorc

But none fit the theme too well

I wonder if giving invocations instead would work

[tender cape]

i feel like that would be treading too much over warlock IMO

[tender cape]

a fun idea but as a capstone, i'm not fully confident about

[tender cape]

okay, another idea that plays into giving more utility rather than only damage:

once per long rest, you can cast any spell of 5th level or lower without components from any spell list

it's a mystic arcanum that isn't prepared, can be basically anything, and still has a touch of the spell thievery without having the restriction of requiring that spell to be cast on you or you needing a spell slot of the appropriate level

[ocean bloom]

Ooo I like that

[tender cape]

should i have it auto-upcast to 5th or leave it at base level?

[tender cape]

okay, i think this is satisfactory

[tender cape]

actually thud if you see this, could you pretty please do me the favor of pinning this?

[kind vault]

is it here?

[tender cape]

yup. right in that message above yours, the one it's replying to

the latest Eldritch Sharp subclass hasn't been published yet but the text is right above

[kind vault]

GMbinder: sort of working in firefox is good.
It's still aggressively opposed to dark mode though.

[tender cape]

yup unfortunately firefox does some fucky wucky things to docs in gmbinder (and homebrewery) so that's why i use chrome to edit and view those docs

[kind vault]

this is how it looks with my standard dark mode filter.

and the alternative I have

[tender cape]

yeah that's just the site being janky

[kind vault]

it's honestly impressive how much it fights the darkmode though

I'm not a huge fan of the "reliably untrustworthy" as a title, and some of that flavour text.
It sorta pigeonholes rogue harder into the "that guy thief / troublemaker", encouraging the "no honour among thieves" mindset.
the rest of the flavour text seems OK, but its just that header and that aspect of that bit.

[tender cape]

i thought it would be interesting to take 5e's "A Shady Living" and spin it into an oxymoron with a bit more of a complex theme, but i see what you mean by that

[kind vault]

If we're reworking rogue, I'd probably give them some more weapon profs (or remove longsword, but I'm sure there's people very invested in longsword+x playstyles).
maybe expand it with other 1 handed and versatile martials?

[tender cape]

i hadn't thought about that before

but it would mean changing up sneak attack's requirement of weapon properties

[kind vault]

it's a legacy holdover from 3e

[tender cape]

oh i know the longsword 3e part. i meant the part about adding more weapon proficiencies

[kind vault]

yeah

you could probably make it "one handed and ranged weapons" tbh.
Too tired to remember how to word that, but Strogue wouldnt be a bad thing.

[tender cape]

something like "melee weapons that lack the heavy and two-handed properties, and ranged weapons"

but i've already got a custom STRogue subclass called the Roughhouser down the line

[kind vault]

that can allow two handed and heavy weapons ~

[tender cape]

well it does!

[kind vault]

nothing in base class is leaping out as busted

extraordinary talents wording is a tad jank

[tender cape]

yeah, and unfortunately the closest precedent for the wording i can use is indomitable might from barb

[kind vault]

I'll look more tomorrow

it being bright, and also late it's slow going xD

[tender cape]

that's fair. take your time, i know it's a pretty lengthy doc

hopefully this is less jank and still clear in its wording

[tender cape]

@unkempt river

and associated art (in sketch form) #art_minis_and_tokens message

[unkempt river]

Danke

[tender cape]

a first pass at reworking major parts of the barbarian that's on pause while i work on my rogue project

[mystic harness]

Ooooh. I like this already.

[tender cape]

in short terms, i want a rage feature that is less restrictive (no uses, easier to keep up), streamlined (less tracking), and an overall barbarian class that is:

• easier to pilot (by reducing rage complexity)
• has better scaling post 6th level
• uses its weight to push people around

and a very minor tweak i forgot to add, the last line of Rage should say "you gain one level of exhaustion when that rage ends."

[mystic harness]

OoooOOOOOO I like that a LOT

exhaustion is a mechanic i never have an excuse to use, its always been something i kinda would have to push for by constantly throwing shit at the players to prevent rest

A candle that burns twice as hot for half as long is a great thing to keep in mind for the development process here. I adore recoil mechanics

[tender cape]

i'm actually on the other side of the fence for exhaustion

i think it's an absolutely debilitating condition to have for martials, having 3 levels of it is basically game-ending and makes you useless

that being said, i'm okay with it here because ultimately the player is in control of when they do and don't get exhaustion

for berserker barbarian, they can use their 3rd level feature once, and then it is hamstringing them for the rest of the day. that sucks

[mystic harness]

I have no experience with exhaustion so I’m sorta ignorant on how bad it is. Conceptually it just seems neat

[tender cape]

with this iteration, over the course of the standard adventuring day (6-8 medium encounters, 2 short rests), the barbarian can rage three times at 1st level without contracting exhaustion guaranteed, which is one more than the 2 uses you normally get
and you can also add +1 by raging right at the very end, getting one level of exhaustion, and then your long rest removes it

[tender cape]

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/appendix-a-conditions#Exhaustion

also here's the table

unfortunately ability checks include contested ones, so it's disadvantage on grappling and shoving

and actually also initiative rolls now that i think about it

you'll also notice that this doesn't affect save DCs at all, which means casters aren't nearly as badly affected by this iteration of exhaustion as martials are

[mystic harness]

Laaaaame.

[tender cape]

the new 5.5e exhaustion rules (before they got canned) were significantly better, being a stacking -1 per level of exhaustion to each of attack rolls, ability checks, saving throws, and save DCs

and you died when you got to -11

[mystic harness]

Why did they get canned?

[tender cape]

no clue

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[mystic harness]

5.5 sounds much more fair and also more applicable to different situations

[tender cape]

there are good parts and there are bad parts

anyway, it's still all very pre-first-draft, but these are the tier 3+ features and the revamped battlerager sub

[tender cape]

but i won't be working on this for a long time, because i'm still working on my rogue project instead

[mystic harness]

of course. i appreciate that you took a look at all. im definitely gonna keep working on this on my own, ill keep you posted

[mystic harness]

Hmm. Wearing lots of armor doesnt feel thematically appropriate for this particular build, but I do like the idea of a barbarian actually wearing something.

[dusk lynx]

Unstoppable rage

And then the 10th level is just so you get resistance to the relevant damage earlier?

[mystic harness]

Iron Fortress Barbarian

[tender cape]

the more i thought about it, the more i thought it was a restriction that didn't need to be there

[mystic harness]

for Barbarian in general? i agree.

[tender cape]

the base class itself doesn't have heavy armor prof, and instead i gave it to the battlerager sub (inspired by one of laserllama's subs)

[mystic harness]

i kinda wanna do an armored barbarian sub now. probably better to leave that to you and focus on the Bloodshed barb though lol

[tender cape]

and then you can multiclass to get heavy armor (losing the capstone) or you could take a feat (which would be fine because it's a pretty high cost to get a feat)
so ultimately i'm not bothered by heavy armor barbs

[tender cape]

yeah i think every sub should have somewhere in the middle extra resistances that match the theme of the sub

[mystic harness]

barbarians not wearing armor is a thematic choice anyway, in the end. Unarmored Defense is.. what, bouncing attacks off of your muscles? Yeah, right.

The vision for barbarian was “brutal warrior who fights unarmored and is hard to kill”

But armor is cool and angry boys deserve to look cool.

:(

[tender cape]

DnD's barbarian is very much inspired by conan the barbarian

conan being the loincloth wearing cunning and skilled warrior of the savage wilds and whatnot

[mystic harness]

I wanna use the word “Breaker” somewhere in the name of an armored barbarian subclass

[tender cape]

that'll be a consideration if i ever get around to finishing this project

[mystic harness]

or maybe just as the name for an ability

like “Break Upon Me”

anyway im gonna get back to cooking

[tender cape]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH3fsoDFxBc

[mystic harness]

https://tenor.com/view/swedish-chef-baking-muppet-gif-15620659

[mystic harness]

ofc its a hearthstone quote

[tender cape]

to go back to this, yeah i think barbs should all just be ludicrously durable while they're raging at high levels. if you managed to go 18 levels into barbarian, IMO you deserve all of the nutso features you want
but i have been considering a slightly different angle that would dilute the themes of the subs but would be more streamlined overall:

1st level rage: resistance to damage from melee weapon attacks
7th? level rage: resistance to damage from all weapon attacks
13th? level rage: resistance to damage from all attacks
18th? level rage: resistance to all damage

[mystic harness]

18th just being level 3 bear totem

[tender cape]

i won't argue that it's overtuned

but at the stage of the game that you get it, like 90% of the damage you're taking (tier 1) is BPS

it really only becomes more relevant the higher level you go

[mystic harness]

anyway yeah i agree that Barbarians should be nearly unkillable at high levels.

with some variance between subs ofc

like a Zealot barb shouldnt die unless their god straight up abandons them somehow

but a Frenzy barbarian can absolutely die if they lose themselves to the glory of combat

[tender cape]

i wanted to keep berserker very simple

it is the starter barb sub, after all. that's why its 3rd level feature is very flat and simple

[tender cape]

drafted up an idea for a phantom revamped that fits into my rogue revamped project
was primarily inspired by a short discussion about soul collecting subs in #overflow

[tender cape]

doc has been updated to include this new Phantom Revamped subclass, along with new flavor text
other changes include:

• Sneak Attack can now be used with any melee weapon that lacks heavy and two-handed for slightly better STRogue support (and thus longsword rogues work)
• additional weapon proficiencies have been added as well
• Scout Revamped's capstone now ignores cover to better support the 3rd level Sneak Attack alteration
• Roughhouser's capstone now gives advantage to physical saves and disadvantage to mental saves, instead of proficiency and removing proficiency respectively
• minor wording tweaks here and there

[woven hill]

I am

here?

few notes on the rogue as I briefly glance through

• longsword still in equip confused me until I saw you removed the finesse requirement from SA, though given the class only has light armor still its pretty assuredly a terrible trap option
• SA's requirement list should be broken out a bit more, "you must have adv" is simple, but the second bullet is like, 2.5 things
• Cunning Action is the opposite and seems unnecessarily broken out? Why not just say "You can Dash, Disengage, and Hide as a Bonus Action"? I don't think it would detract from the 6th level feature improving it later.
• You may wanna include the DC for the cunning actions in the 2nd level feature, if you have subclasses expand on it since they might have save things before 6th? IDK
• Deadly Action is neat but also feels like it completely invalidates a few previous ones, like Blind is almost strictly better than Trip (unless you've added new prone targeting things)
• Extraordinary Talent.... I might borrow that 👀

[tender cape]

longsword still in equip confused me until I saw you removed the finesse requirement from SA, though given the class only has light armor still its pretty assuredly a terrible trap option
that was brought up by ovion as a 3.5e legacy thing. i felt it better to support the fantasy of a longsword rogue rather than remove it outright. also, it's not listed in the starter equipment so someone would indeed have to go out of their way to get their hands on a longsword

SA's requirement list should be broken out a bit more, "you must have adv" is simple, but the second bullet is like, 2.5 things
it's a direct copy over from current 5e Sneak Attack, but parsed to be more readable than the jumble of word salad WotC uses. mechanically there's no change

Cunning Action is the opposite and seems unnecessarily broken out? Why not just say "You can Dash, Disengage, and Hide as a Bonus Action"? I don't think it would detract from the 6th level feature improving it later.
to maintain consistency with Devious Action (6th level feature), Deadly Action (14th level feature), and each of the subclass's various Cunning Actions. this signposts Cunning Action as "each of these are distinct choices", which leaves no ambiguity about what "take the same Cunning Action choice" means in Improved Cunning Action (11th level feature)

You may wanna include the DC for the cunning actions in the 2nd level feature, if you have subclasses expand on it since they might have save things before 6th? IDK
they don't. the standard subclass Cunning Action choices level comes online at 9th level, which occurs after 6th

Deadly Action is neat but also feels like it completely invalidates a few previous ones, like Blind is almost strictly better than Trip (unless you've added new prone targeting things)
it is, but that's an unfortunate side effect of making sure the actions you perform stay relevant with the tier of play you're in

i am considering doing something like trip on a ranged attack, primarily to knock flying enemies out of the sky, but i'm afraid that might lead to too much bloat in explaining "this is an improved version of the thing you did earlier"

[woven hill]

You could "hide" deadly action inside of the 6th level feature

list the new version as "at X level this becomes Y"

[tender cape]

i'll consider it, but i'm afraid that level of depth is not as well suited or will become too bloated for 5e. i know arcane archer does this but arcane archer is not a well-designed subclass IMO

doing a very quick check on DDB, 20 pages of monsters are immune to either blinded or prone. 12 are immune to prone, and 9 are immune to blinded, which means 1 page is immune to both
so there are some instances in which you'll want to pick one over the other

[woven hill]

I suppose

its not bad by any means btw

I've somehow only now pieced together the SA requirement issue

[tender cape]

wait, you thought all of those were individual conditions?

if anything, that just proves my point that WotC wrote that feature in a bad way and my cleaning it up is an improvement

[woven hill]

I guess the only way that could be simplified further is to note the "no disadv" in the feature text, then list the other 2

[tender cape]

Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to a creature you hit with an attack from a melee weapon that lacks the heavy and two-handed properties, or a ranged weapon, if the attack roll doesn't have disadvantage.

[woven hill]

yah like that

[tender cape]

i suppose it doesn't clash with any of my other sneak attack enablers

let's see if it does shorten it

[woven hill]

might also solve the "I have adv but also disdv" question

[tender cape]

that's not a concern

in the 5e rules, if you have both, you are considered to have neither

i didn't check that rule for this feature specifically, it was for something else, but i know this is the case

[woven hill]

but the attack has advantage. You just don't roll with it

that's the thing that trips up newbies

[tender cape]

If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20. This is true even if multiple circumstances impose disadvantage and only one grants advantage or vice versa. In such a situation, you have neither advantage nor disadvantage.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#AdvantageandDisadvantage
this is the actual rule, which says that you have neither. i'm referring to this when i say that it's not a concern

this rule closes that loophole for me

[woven hill]

no, I know that's not a real loophole

I'm saying it prevents a new player from even considering it

[tender cape]

oh, i see what you mean now

okay, that's fine

okay, i've updated the doc to accommodate some of the wording changes

it's only a few lines shorter, but it'll do

[woven hill]

I'll need to make similar adjustments to mine

[tender cape]

a warlock subclass about cannibalism (CW) and devouring your enemies. this is just a first draft, not feeling particularly hot about the expanded spell list or 10th level feature though
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-NsHpfj3uwrdXAEUWttX

[dusk lynx]

Om nom

[tender cape]

chewy

[hollow fable]

oh i see that pseudo onednd formatting, sick

[tender cape]

it started being pulled from TCE but i figured that including class for clarity didn't hurt

for reference, TCE includes only class or subclass, not both

[hollow fable]

I like it better than "AT 1ST LEVEL BLAH", cleaner and less game-y, which is good since game-y language is clearer and i use it often. So it balances out.

[tender cape]

and also capitalizes the subclass but not the class, which drives me nuts

[hollow fable]

aint doing that, that sounds cursed

ok finished

I'd say its on the weaker side, but not sure if its intentional?

[tender cape]

maybe. i was just sticking to the general conventions of warlock features (combat features throughout, 6th and 10th being defensive)

although these aren't changes to the features themselves, i've adjusted the expanded spell list and added a couple of new spells as well

haven't been published yet but this is what they look like

[hollow fable]

the list looks good

ohh it has unique spells

[tender cape]

i wasn't happy with some of the expanded spells tbh

[hollow fable]

ok nvm, the spells are also quite regular in balance level

[tender cape]

protection from poison only felt tangentially related, and giant insect was only loosely connected to the theme

[hollow fable]

impressed with that, it feels very chill nothing stands out as weird

id say something that helps combat a bit more at 1st level would be nice

upon looking at it again, most warlock levels 6 and 10 are pretty tame yeah, or strong but situational

tho 1d10 at level 10 is quite low, maybe 2d6? or even 2d8 would feel nicer

it is infinite use though i guess

hm, brewers discretion then, seems low but it being infinite use also makes it hard to buff on a full caster

[tender cape]

the way that i reason for the 1st, getting extra spell slots per day without needing to take a full short rest is how the class gets improved combat, but can also have more broader applications outside of combat too

10 minutes is much easier to fit in somewhere than a full hour

[hollow fable]

true, just didnt stand out to me because ive been in "one fight per long rest" campaigns for years now

but if the campaign is ran with multiple fights per LR (or even SR) this is very strong

scratch that then, nothing to complain here on the brew

[tender cape]

okay, cool

i'm also working on maybe one or two warlock spells for the mystic arcanum, but those will take a little more time in the oven before i ship out a first draft

[hollow fable]

gotchu, tag if you need a comment

also ill trade u for a read on martial class i mentioned earlier if you got a sec

[tender cape]

send me a link, i'll take a look at it later then

[hollow fable]

huge, ill get it online in a bit

[tender cape]

got a batch of tier 3 and 4 spells for it now

[woven hill]

Hey Mag, about that barb you posted in my thread, something I noticed

an "exploit" I learned when playing a wild magic barb was that you can enter a rage while raging

nothing says you cannot do so, and your wording says that you are only punished for entering rage soon after the previous rage ends

so, if it didn't end yet, you can freely enter another rage. Unclear if that refreshes the duration due to 5e overlapping effects rules, or they stack and the first still expires, but either way

[tender cape]

fair point. i'll edit it to account for that

[dusk lynx]

Basically make the time limit “if you use rage during a rage or within x minutes of last rage”

[woven hill]

or fancify some wording to make it impossible to rage while raging

[tender cape]

i just added 4 words at the start to make it simple

if i rush i might be able to finish doing some line art tonight 🥹

why is art so hard

[tender cape]

jotting a note for myself in regards to possible siege machine/artillery design:

• every siege machine has a static area effect and damage amount, and all impose a DEX save. damage type could change based on projectile used
• every siege machine has a range increment. you can't target a point within half that range increment or beyond 5 range increments
• to determine the accuracy of your shot, roll a d20. if you roll at or below your INT score, it lands at your designated spot
• if you roll above your INT, the distance the shot deviates is equal to 5 x the roll minus your INT x how many range increments away, in feet
• deviation direction is determined by a d8, starting from North and going clockwise
• if you were aiming with precision tools (eyeglass, telescope, those cranks you wind for angles, etc.), halve the deviation distance

• ballistae: line
• cannon: line
• catapult: cone
• mortar: sphere
• trebuchet: cone

possible room for magic infused artillery?

[dusk lynx]

Ballistae, cannon and mortar seem understandable

Can I get the reasoning for the cone ones?

[woven hill]

should the line effects be like Catapult spell? Like, if a cannon hits a dude, it won't stop, but if it hits a solid stone wall, it will? So you could do a lightning-bolt style line spell on some things, but if you were to cannon an ogre it probably would stop the cannon

[tender cape]

the projectile collides with a point of impact, then it breaks up into effectively shrapnel

[tender cape]

i personally think for the sake of reducing complexity, the projectile won't stop from creatures but will with terrain and total cover, and then the DM can adjudicate edge cases (like they usually do eks dee)

[woven hill]

though also, a line that turns into a cone would be neat

like, cannon flies through small targets, hits a wall, turns into shrapnel blast

[tender cape]

i though about that for something like grapeshot

[woven hill]

sorta like, if you know roadhog from overwatch, their right click shotgun

[tender cape]

i could implement a generic rule for line area effect siege machines for that

[tender cape]

a shorter discussion I had elsewhere informed me that some players think 5e rogues are very lacking in defensive options and tools

although I question the truthfulness of that, I'm wondering if that sentiment is more widespread than I'd believe it to be

and if it could be helped just by giving the rogue once per turn +10 speed when they use cunning action

[tender cape]

Proposal for Cunning Action Change:

Replace Dash. option with new Weave. option.

Weave. says "Until the start of your next turn, attack rolls have disadvantage against you."

Additionally, new clause added at the end of Cunning Action: "In addition, once per turn, when you use Cunning Action, you gain extra movement equal to half your walking speed for that turn."

[woven hill]

Huh? Evasion and uncanny dodge are some of the best defensive features in the game, not to mention passive "defense" via just not being there to be hit

If they want more speed, why not bonus action dash?

[tender cape]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

I've believed rogue defenses were fine as well

[woven hill]

These are prob the same people who think you can't dash twice on a turn

[tender cape]

i think they were mostly annoyed at the state of TWF rogues, which is understandable, but TWF just sucks across the board

you pretty much need to go swashbuckler or something like that to make it work

[tender cape]

Proposal for Swashbuckler Rakish Audacity Change:

Your confidence catches others off guard. You gain a new condition you can satisfy to use Sneak Attack with:

• You are making a melee weapon attack and no creatures that are not the target are within 5 feet of you.

becomes

Your confidence catches others off guard. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a melee weapon that lacks the heavy and two-handed properties, you can make one additional attack with a melee weapon that lacks the heavy and two-handed properties against the same target as part of the same action. You use a d4 in place of the normal damage die for this attack.

In addition, you gain a new condition you can satisfy to use Sneak Attack with:

• You are making a melee weapon attack and no creatures that are not the target are within 5 feet of you.

[tender cape]

@candid hemlock what do you think?
the wording is pretty clunky since it kinda has to be, and I'm aware that this can work with thrown melee weapons, but otherwise this is somewhat close to soulknife's 3rd in terms of output, and it enables both the one hand free hand rapier build as well as the one hand rapier off hand dagger build

[candid hemlock]

technically TWF is still optimal here, but yea this is a nice DPR boost (especially in terms of consistency)

the wording could indeed use some work, not sure why it has to be clunky

[tender cape]

for reference, i opened up sneak attack to be used on any melee weapon that isn't heavy or two-handed

so for example, you can have a longsword rogue and still be able to sneak attack with it

[tender cape]

one day it'll get pinned, but for now, this is the doc

actually, @ocean bloom could you please do me a favor and pin that message? i'll give you my eternal love

[tender cape]

love you <3

[sick prawn]

Searing Radiance is unnecessarily complex, mostly because the Bright Light sneak was a very hard sell. At first it was extremely simple, if you and your target are both in bright light, apply sneak damage (and your sneak is radiant of course)

[tender cape]

i'm lowkey afraid of adding it to rogue revamped cuz it'll likely mean i'll have to shift some formatting around and draw another drawing (as if i wasn't already doing enough of those)
but yeah let's see what i can do with it

[sick prawn]

lmao its up to you of course

Im just interested to see someone try their hand at the idea of a light rogue

swash is imo the closest to a nonsneaky rogue

[tender cape]

you can see up a little bit that i was talking with popo about how to improve swashy

the wording isn't the most elegant but i think it's simple enough to communicate the idea of a melee dueling rogue

[empty hawk]

Bard/words of power rogue that talks locks into opening, merchant rogue, a healer rogue that steals people back from the hands of death, Fool Rogue that basically gets bonuses for making stupid plans and doing ill advised shit but has insane luck, a rogue that uses astrology or fortune telling to plan heists, a Magical Girl rogue, a reverse rogue that sneaks things into peoples pockets, time travel rogue, a rogue that steals emotions, a rogue that steals dreams and uses them as weapons, a rogue with a monkey

Dancing rogue

Secret royalty rogue

Cursed treasure rogue that leverages their curse to fight and do other things that are useful, sort of like the pirates in Pirates of the Caribbean

Money rogue that fights with a pocket dimension full of coins they can shoot at people

Butler rogue

Two dimensional rogue, maybe thematically an art thief

A rogue employed by Modrons or some other ineffable being to steal things to create balance or advance some cosmic plan

[tender cape]

@sick prawn first draft for ya. don't mind the stitching, this took up nearly a page and a half on the doc

[tender cape]

thank ya very kindly

[sick prawn]

I like the way you implemented the sneak, might steal that for myself XD

Not so sure if I want to manifest weapons necessarily for my own take, but I can see the appeal of the way you made it. I mightve preset which weapon is which if I did it.

Abritrator is great, definitely the feel I was imagining for such a rogue

Bisected is kinda funny, the way you did the invis sight and darkvision. I kinda get it, but it feels a little silly the way it is implemented hahaba

[tender cape]

tbh i could've swapped them, but at the same time, if you're in a pitch black cave, you don't get the darkvision which would be very weird

but yeah i actually talked to a friend for inspiration since he's a big 40K nerd

and from there i worked off of two themes:

1. the duality and balance of light and dark
2. using what you have to make do, to do what you need to do (inquisitor-likes having training in somewhat exotic weapons > extrapolated into creating your own weapons)

i also wanted to enable more fantasies across the board, so you could go dual ranged if you wanted, you could go dual melee, you could go mixed, etc.

[sick prawn]

Oh yeah no I wouldnt swap them. Its just kinda funny how you lose one when in a different environment

[tender cape]

i don't know how this completely passed over me, but i forgot to mention that i took heavy inspiration from dune for Arbitrator of Fate for this sub

if you know, you know. the scenes in the film are kino

[tall vector]

This were I drop all my monk reworks?

@tender cape ?

[tender cape]

yeah

if there are others made by other brewers in the server, i'll take those as well

[tall vector]

https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MlrtczdT_uUIhsDyxDa

This here is @winged geyser 's

rate my monk rework please :)
replace extra attack at 5th lvl with 'an additional bonus action on your turns'. & Stunning strike is free on crits.
Luci did this one, and ngl I think it would work

Just restrict those BAs to be the ones that spend a ki point

[tender cape]

hullo jober 👋

[tall vector]

https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-N-zetyWLg7uuWj86thx

This one is not a "simple" rework, it changes monk pretty dramatically

[tender cape]

i don't really mind simple vs complex, i'm just looking for quality craftsmanship and thorough thoughtfulness in the design

because there's a ?rangers command for carl and i asked NASA if we could have one for monks too

[tall vector]

Yup, just going through the list

[tender cape]

oh wait izzy has one right

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CSsm9QCRXHnpKj7AsxvDSnokdoWngimMk60YdoGa8IY/edit?usp=sharing

thank you @elfin plinth
if there's anything you'd like to say about it, feel free to let me know

[tall vector]

Yeah... I looked at my older monk rework and I don't think it's of a high enough quality

Plus I think having multiple reworks from one guy in the tag is probably not right

[tender cape]

👍

i'll probably spend time looking for more after i finish this goddamn warlock thing lmao

[winged geyser]

There is probably a couple minor clause things I needed to work out with mt rework to clear up edge cases. Never did get a good opportunity to stress test this rework but I liked the general play structure I made with it. Exact numerical balance on offense and such I know was kind of pushing it for a featless game and/or with specific weapon or feat combos but not enough To be a big problem I think

Just don't brew as much these days, kinda sad I never put this one out their though

kinda just, got caught up in not wanting to post it when monk rework was being done for 5.5

[tender cape]

if you'd like, i can go over the wordings

[winged geyser]

L11 patient defense needs a slight reword to make it work in the way it should, and I don't know if I was ever satisfied with the handling of MA/Flurry

[tall vector]

This one might have some dpr issues also, I aimed for featless greatsword average (it's difficult because it's got a cycle of burst turn/recovery turn) but I did playtest it a bit and I liked it.

[winged geyser]

• Patient Defense. If you have not moved on your turn, you can use Patient defense without spending Ki. If you move after doing so, you must spend 1 Ki in order to retain the bonus, otherwise it is lost.

[tender cape]

i understand comparing against featless classes, but monk does not have many good combat feats to take like other classes do

[winged geyser]

Some thing like this probably fixes the issue

[winged geyser]

Ye, though the general reasoning is that you want to be comparing feats against feats and classes against classes

If monks are bad because they don't have combat feats and not other reasons, then the answer is to make combat feats for them

[tall vector]

Oh yeah dw they're set apart from raw DPR with a lot of control elements

So like, they're not going to rip apart unoptimized groups, but they won't be useless in optimized games either

Trust me, me and Job have hashed this out quite a bit a few years ago

Oh also, with GWM and SS having their teeth removed for 5.5 the disparity won't be too great either

[tender cape]

how does this look?

Patient Defense

You can spend 1 ki point to take the Dodge action as a bonus action on your turn. If you haven't moved during this turn, you can set your speed to 0 until the end of the turn instead of expending the ki point.

[winged geyser]

Its specifically a seperate feature from patient defence, which is where it gets muddy

[tender cape]

oh i just noticed that it was an 11th level feature

[winged geyser]

The notion being you can choose to use it in the free but weaker way or the stronger but more expensive way, but you don't lock yourself into one or the other at the decision point

Realistically speaking, your way also works, it just means when the make the decision is different

The idea was to provide a buff to patient Defensive at higher levels when you are forced into a situation where you have to stand toe to toe with something, and give you the free bonus action dodge for choosing to stay toe to toe is helps drive a narrative within the fight

Also funnily enough, this was my most popular monk rework

this feature replacement as a stadalone thing

might actually be my most popular brew ever lol

[tender cape]

not too surprised. as it turns out, the open hand riders are cool

[winged geyser]

The entire monk structure just fit into Maneuver perfectly

like, they have all the pieces needed for maneuvers to work, and they already were doing a similar thing

Its an incredibly natural fit and one my best "clean" designs

[tender cape]

anyway thanks guys. i'll look through these and try to find more

[elfin plinth]

uh, context?

[tender cape]

i'm compiling a list of server made monk reworks

you're aware of ?rangers, right? i asked NASA if we could have a ?monks

[elfin plinth]

Keeps Base Class the same structure
Increases damage a bit
Removes arbitrary restrictions
Makes monk tankier via deflect blows rather than AC or HP buffs

My monk is basically "keep as much similar as you can but fix the basic numbers/gameplay interactions"

[woven hill]

onednd monk is honestly pretty solid

if that's not already on the list*

[tender cape]

i don't think anybody here is a designer for WotC so i think that automatically fails the "made by members of this server" requirement

[woven hill]

is ?rangers only for ones built by this server?

I do have my own monk rebuild, though it relies on my #1204503484393857084 stuff so... unsure if that should be included

[foggy totem]

That's backwards compatible with 5e though?
Right?
Right?

[woven hill]

Yes*

* being that it uses new terms and mechanics from the core system, so you can't just use it by itself without knowing these additional mechanics

[foggy totem]

mhm, makes sense

[tender cape]

yes, except for Xenken who left the server some time ago

[tender cape]

@ocean bloom don't mind the missing flavor text, but here you go
if you'd kindly let me know your thoughts, they would be greatly appreciated

[ocean bloom]

seems alright I guess

the wording is a little confusing at points

[tender cape]

probably because it references my other document

Rogue Revamped, the one that you pinned

[ocean bloom]

I aint reading a class to understand a subclass bruv

I got things to do

like

uh

[tender cape]

😔

well I suppose that means it's time to move onto the next sub

[tender cape]

for future use:
https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/GixOh9T-Bu5v
by faye

https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-NGXJCv8GkM5XdYEHyBA
by mobiusflip

[tall vector]

Hm

MobiusFlip's seems interesting

[elfin plinth]

Ideal Self is crazy for dipping though

He does address it with MC-notes

Its a bit cludgey, though

I like Mobius' monk, but the biggest issue I have is that it doesn't feel like it has a Signature Thing™️ until level 5

If it does, its entirely defensive

[tall vector]

yeah

I don’t know if I like it

but it is certainly interesting

[tender cape]

i have yet to read through them myself, but I definitely plan to

[tender cape]

just thought of an absolutely absurd joke idea for a rogue sub while away from the PC:

3rd level, you get a pool of (let's call them) "Fate Dice", equal to how many Sneak Attack dice you have and also the same size. all are regained on LR

when another creature makes a d20 roll and sees the result, you can use your reaction to throw a Fate Die at the d20 in real life. if you hit and change the d20's upward face, that becomes the new d20 roll, and you can also give the roll a bonus or penalty equal to what you rolled on the Fate Die. then the Fate Die is expended. otherwise, don't expend the Fate Die

[tender cape]

@empty hawk first draft for your dimension-warping rogue
honestly, this was a really interesting concept to work with, so I hope you like it

[tender cape]

main Rogue Revamped doc has been updated with some small but non-trivial tweaks:

• Sneak Attack's feature text requires that the attack must not have disadvantage as a blanket rule rather than individually spelling it out every time
• in addition to the above, new tag created for "rogue weapons", which are melee weapons that don't have heavy or two-handed and ranged weapons to condense phrasings
• features in subclasses have been adjusted to account for the new text above
• Mastermind Revamped's 3rd level feature damage output reduced from half Sneak Attack to maximum 3d6
• Phantom Revamped's Soul Tether Cunning Action choice replaced with a new one: Soul Sight, granting see invisibility
• Swashbuckler Revamped gains an additional 3rd level effect that adds an extra melee attack when dueling
• Thief Revamped's 3rd level Cunning Action choices have had two choices condensed into one (making ability checks) and given a new choice: Supply, granting the ability to pull items out of thin air
• Roughhouser's 3rd level feature now prevents all hit points from being regained rather than only half
• Roughhouser's 9th level feature now requires that the improvised weapon resemble an actual weapon to prevent exploitative destruction of objects and others

[tender cape]

@sick prawn @thick trout
first pass at a rework for inquisitive rogue. i can fill in the flavor blurb later as i've got to go to sleep soon. wondering what you guys think of it

[woven hill]

I worry that "figured you out" may promote unhealthy behavior between GM and player

like, even a good GM would basically have the choice of "ok if I have them attack the person the player wanted them to attack, they gain the feature. Otherwise, they think I'm metagaming"

which would basically boil down to the feature always being active unless the enemy simply doesn't use an attack or spell

[tender cape]

for the person picking this sub, i don't think that's too out of the question. it's in a very similar vein to monk's deflect missiles, where the DM can also choose to not shoot the monk with any ranged attacks

there's the narrative aspect where you feel really smart about choosing the right creature and you're rewarded for it
there's the mechanical aspect where you effectively have an anti-taunt feature that you can use to selectively protect either yourself or one of your party members

now that i think about it, this is closer to cavalier's special attack on the BA, but the reasoning is still mostly the same. use whatever you like to try to guess which creature is going to be targeted next, whether that's metagaming the DM, or using it to soft-protect a specific target, or even just sticking it on your frontline pally/fighter/barb so the monster might end up eating a reaction attack either way (this feature or an opportunity attack). i'm perfectly okay with all that
it opens up a new layer to do tactical things, and gets even better if you can synergize with the existing taunt mechanics via cavalier fighter, ancestral guardian, compelled duel, etc. with your party members. frankly that's something that 5e tends to be lacking in, proper teamwork stuff

[woven hill]

but the question isn't "are you smart enough to see where it's going to go", its "are you smart enough to know how the GM is going to control it"

if it was a video game, that kinda thing would be really neat, you gotta learn the AI of the enemy and how it thinks

but in dnd, its just your GM you gotta figure out and how they chose to run this person. Unless they run 90% of their monsters as "approach closest person > smack that person", in which case you don't feel smart you just know that they are already engaged with your fighter and thus will hit your fighter

Which is a shame, because flavor wise I really like how it works

I just feel like it'll become either a permanently online feature or a point of contention in the group

[tender cape]

if this feature forces the DM to reconsider their monsters' tactics, I still think that's a win, because we all are aware of how dull 5e combats can be when it's just slugging at each other

[tender cape]

i think this is more of a failing on 5e's monster design that give you no indication on how a monster should behave while in combat

a low INT beast will probably run at the closest target (and surround them with pack tactics) while a high INT caster will try to nuke the backline but the stat blocks don't do you any favors in explaining that, and that eventually becomes a matter of reasoning out how a monster will behave in combat yes

[tender cape]

as for what you said here, if this feature is permanently online, i'm sorry, your DM is just too predictable. maybe your table is okay with that, maybe your table isn't, and if your table isn't, then yeah your DM needs to improve their monsters' tactics
and if it's not reliable at all, it's still preventing a monster's attacks from going towards a specific party member even if there isn't a damage number associated with it, and you can make it more reliable with the taunt features i mentioned earlier. there's hidden power that isn't shown when the feature isn't used. the DM changing their monster attacks to account for this feature is still something you're impacting turn after turn

as a last note, i would imagine that the DMs that would metagame this hard to never attack that second creature are also doing the same with other PC similar features, and that would be something that has to be addressed by each player at the table in terms of playstyle rather than mechanics can resolve

using the same analogy from above about never shooting your monks

final final note actually: i would imagine a player who picks a class about investigating and doing smart things would love to engage in "intellectual battle" with the DM using combat as a proxy

[woven hill]

If that's your goal, I think it can be fun at the right table. I'll say that I would very much not enjoy a player with this sub at my table though

[empty hawk]

Apparently I just thought this in my head instead of actually saying it, but this is super cool

[tender cape]

thank you

[empty hawk]

I think tunnel vision might be too easy to avoid the dillemma, I feel like enemies usually move in straight lines. Maybe no diagonals?

depth perception is really really situational to the point it might never come up, although the concept is great, as with tunnel vision

love Dimensional Compression

[tender cape]

unfortunately i am bound by the fact that in 5e, the default is "theater of the mind" and anything that uses a grid is a variant rule

[empty hawk]

true

[tender cape]

for a 13th level feature, that's mostly intended

the 13th's power level shouldn't be too high, and i feel like it could primarily be used for shenanigans with your party members more than screwing with NPCs spying on you

[empty hawk]

it's possible it would work for shenanigans, yeah. I can see never being able to use the power though unless you're purposely setting it up with your teammates, and the usefulness of that is questionable since they have to already be in a place within line of sight. Looking at some of the other rogues 13 features, they can be fairly useful. I think if I was to play this (and I totally want to) I would change this one, and buff tunnel vision a bit

maybe give advantage on init rolls like scout 13, if I'm being lazy

although probably I would do like, a teleport of some kind by messing with depth

Phantom rogue has flight and phasing, seems reasonable

[tender cape]

i've got an altered scout and phantom actually as well

[empty hawk]

alternatively some kind of attack advantage like arcane trickster

this is my lazy change of course lol

nonlazy would be something something teleport under this specific condition as a bonus action something something

oh, or maybe an enlarge/reduce cast?

smaller cause far away, bigger cause close

leaving the spyglass thing in cause it's super fun

[tender cape]

120 ft as an action because that's a really long distance to teleport, but i'll mull it over

[empty hawk]

oh for the bonus action I was thinking like.. 30 feet

[tender cape]

since this entire sub is a tad shorter than the other ones i've made, i can bring the spyglass teleport down to 9th and put something else in at 13th

[empty hawk]

all in all very cool ideas and seems fun to play

[tender cape]

rereading my other subs, it's more ribbon-ish than the others i've made at this level

[empty hawk]

yeah, although the 3rd level ribbon is one I like a lot. I'm currently playing a plasmoid with zero equipment solely so I can squeeze through gaps

[tender cape]

i did base this feature off of that racial trait

although i was concerned about squeezing into a space with a ton of junk you're holding and staying there with full cover which is why i gave it an action cost and limited its duration

[empty hawk]

that's reasonable

[tender cape]

so yeah if i move the spyglass teleport down to 9th, i can see room for adding a feature that gives advantage on next attack after teleporting or using any of the 9th level subclass features

although the sub itself doesn't have a lot of teleportation, i'd like to enable room for players to pick up teleportation from other sources such as shadar kai

as for Tunnel Vision, that i'm much more iffy on

if used in tandom with your party members, it's possible to completely deny a monster's action, forcing it to take the extra damage just to make its turn normally

or maybe just with terrain as well, like if you made an attack (step 1) against this monster from position 2, then moved to position 3

[empty hawk]

true. requires a bonus action for melee rogues. ranged rogues would use it better

I feel like a feature that works with teleportation when the sub doesn't grant teleportation is iffy

although if it does, that's good

[woven hill]

Mag I just noticed in the feature you posted in Wording, can't you just chain the charm thing forever?

and use the first feature to turn a hostile creature not-hostile, thus opening it to charms?

[tender cape]

that's the point of the subclass. it's one of the few times i go out of my way to create a social-orientated sub

[woven hill]

using the feature technically makes no noise either, so if you snuck up on someone you could spam it (safely) forever?

it has to be able to hear you, but doesn't say you have to make any noise

[tender cape]

"whisper sweet nothings" and all that ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[woven hill]

I feel like a "becomes immune for 1 min+ on success" might be beneficial here

and make noise of some kind I guess

I think its totally viable for the rogue to get lucky twice, turn a hostile to neutral to charmed, but to be able to spam it siliently until success seems... weird

[tender cape]

charm monster is a 4th level spell that lacks concentration, lasts 1 hour, and only has one save
and subtle spell metamagic is accessible very early on for sorcs and even via the metamagic adept feat
so as far as I'm concerned, spellcasters can go cry in the corner because they have to burn a slot for something this sub gets to do for free

[woven hill]

burn a slot, have it fail the save, and use a metamagic?

the failing a save is the notable point there

[tender cape]

what i've created requires failing two saves

[woven hill]

if the rogue could spam it once per minute, and ya know, actually have to talk to them to convince them, I think that'd be fine

not suggesting it should be X/day uses at all

[tender cape]

the more you continue to bind martials to the laws of reality and common sense in a game about fantasy superhumans, the more i get frustrated about how those same rules don't apply to casters

[woven hill]

If your goal is to ignore logic then, sure I guess it works then 🤷

[tender cape]

what i create is not about creating a realistic representation of what could be replicated in reality

unless otherwise stated, 5e generally assumes this is the default for everybody
which means every feature that everybody gets should be something beyond what the average nobody can achieve without the feature

anybody with a high CHA score (or even a dogshit one if your DM doesn't make you roll CHA checks) can walk up to a guard and talk with them to distract them for however long
it takes someone special (read: a PC with class levels and features) to be able to go beyond that

so yeah, features can defy logic. i would even go so far as to argue that they should defy basic logic to some degree, because following basic logic is what normal people do, not what PC adventurers do

[tender cape]

my guide for writing in WotC's style: https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-O0phIy2095vtCJq7j7q

[foggy totem]

If only this had been released 10 years ago

now you're going to have to edit and rerelease the 5e (2024) version in a few months

[tender cape]

eh. i likely won't bother

[tender cape]

@ocean bloom
okay here you go, a ranger rework. it's fully fleshed out and i don't want to touch it anymore
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-O0WmnMsdr3ELzgSI9Gf

[ocean bloom]

:D

[foggy totem]

now you must add this to the ?ranger command

[ocean bloom]

only if its good

[restive bramble]

Oh.
Now that's a ranger

[ocean bloom]

I very much like this tbh

Except there's no horizon walker

Or drakewarden

So it's a 0/10

[dusk lynx]

WotC: makes ranger, but not in a good way

Everyone else: time to fix it

[foggy totem]

basically
class: 10
subclasses 0

[foggy totem]

I think ranger just reached the critical mass at the point which so many people were editing and reworking it "ranger revised" became separated from the Ranger class, no matter how good the Ranger actually was

[tender cape]

:^(

mods always bullying me 😔

why everybody so mean to me 🍑

[tender cape]

i just pulled the 4 being used for 2024 PHB since WotC decided those were emblematic of the class or something

"Slayer" being the replacement for Hunter because i went hard on the Hunter motif for the base class

[tender cape]

it was more or less something that spawned from this: #dnd_2024_discussion message

up until now, I had ideas but nothing written down

spent like a week putting together a skeleton, and then the next month and a half fleshing it out

[restive bramble]

It came together rather nicely

[restive bramble]

the foriage option
Now I do like that for flavor but it only highlights the problem with default foriage mechanics. In that they are easy to circumvent.

I read those rules in the old dmg, used them one time and in one foriage they rolled decently and just... Could already survive for a couple weeks. I went with the as written rules and it barely provided a challenge

[tender cape]

yeah, i'm aware of that as well
i made it something you pick and choose instead of something you get automatically not really to deliberately make it worse, but more like "you pick this if you know this is going to matter, and you don't if it doesn't" sort of thing. i know it's pretty non-committal but given how barebones the surrounding mechanics are, i don't really have a perfect solution without a total overhaul

[tender cape]

Proposal for Sneak Attack Change:
People frequently complain about rogues lacking DPR, primarily due to lack of Extra Attack. This led to me thinking about making a variant feature that includes Extra Attack at the cost of a slower Sneak Attack progression. The idea here is that Sneak Attack is making up for lost damage due to rogues being restricted to weapons with smaller weapon dice than classes with martial weapon proficiency (as in a greatsword attacking twice for 2d6 + 4 with a FS is fairly close to a shortsword attacking twice for 1d6 + 4 with 2d6 extra damage added once).

It would read like this:

Optional Class Feature: Extra Attack

5th-level Rogue feature

You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

When you gain this feature, your Sneak Attack does not increase to 3d6. Instead, when you reach certain levels in this class, your Sneak Attack increases: at 9th level (3d6), 13th level (4d6), and 17th level (5d6).

Most likely not going to be a perfect match, but I think it makes for a fairly interesting build choice with very little complexity added, especially when it's at the cost of improved reaction attacks and subclass features that scale with Sneak Attack dice to get more consistent DPR.

[tender cape]

threw this together for the sake of visualizing the difference, assuming a default accuracy of 65%

same set of data but this time with an accuracy of 87.75%, which is 65% with advantage

[restive bramble]

i like your funny math words, rogue enjoyer

[tender cape]

math jumpscare

relevant information for barbarian proposed changes:

• Rage Damage starts at +1, increases by an additional +1 every four levels (noted in chart)
• Rage doesn't have daily use limits - instead, Rage gives exhaustion if used within 10 minutes of the last Rage > doesn't give exhaustion anymore at 7th level
• at 11th level, attacks affected by Reckless Attack gain Rage Damage to damage rolls (noted in chart)
• if Raging and Reckless Attacking, the Rage Damage is combined (noted in chart)
• Brutal Critical is deleted

compared against default fighter with just the great weapon fighting style and a greatsword (with and without advantage on attacks for reference)

that third fighter attack is putting in work

[tender cape]

@kind vault prepare to be brained. since you asked if i mathed it out in #general_dnd

that being said, i was expecting this to be way off the charts, but it seems... fine?
sure, putting down Rage + Reckless every turn puts you ahead of the fighter without advantage, but then you're on par with the fighter if there are other sources of advantage - and Reckless can't stack with those sources of advantage. and all of that is done at the cost of being attacked with advantage yourself every turn

[kind vault]

it do

[kind vault]

as I'm typin! xD

I will look later, brain turn off time

[tender cape]

another math jumpscare

this time it's a comparison between subclass-less fighter, UA 46 brute fighter, and two versions of battle master fighter: one where every superiority die is used to add damage to attacks, and one where every superiority die is used to turn a miss into a hit

@ancient flame just in case you wanted to know where my reasoning is coming from - just the +1d4 by itself is not egregious, it's the fact that it continues to scale afterwards

[ancient flame]

Yeah, this gets into the "are magic items part of balance" stuff. I think really it ends up being a wash if you think about most home games, but matters as you get more strict about how games are run.

[tender cape]

i throw them in because it's a simple add, and also because 5e magic weapons sit in a very silly middle ground where the game doesn't assume them for balance - until players get to the tiers where practically every monster has resistance to nonmagical BPS and features for PCs using unarmed strikes/natural weapons make those attacks magical specifically to make up for not having magic weapons built for them

okay i'm gonna do something else now that i have been thoroughly brained for today

[woven hill]

surprising that + to damage and miss > hit are so aligned

How did you come to the number of misses a fighter would have?

[kind vault]

I will say, that these tables at least nicely shows how only showing numbers for 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 is "enough", with it being very consistent, with periodic jumps a bit before each marker.

[tender cape]

it's a "best case" upper bound scenario. I assumed every time Precision Attack is used, the attack becomes a guaranteed hit (100% accuracy but can't crit). in more practical scenarios, this number should be a tiny bit lower

because of randomness in the superiority die (a player isn't guaranteed to turn a miss into a hit)

[tender cape]

in most cases yes, but the UA brute has a feature at 15th level (add fighter level as bonus damage to crits) that is actually pretty substantial

[kind vault]

yeah - though that'll show in 16th at least

[tender cape]

@cerulean isle i finessed this in between me being brained by other things and created something of a dodge tank defender. enjoy

https://tenor.com/view/a-hat-in-time-gaming-video-game-dancing-dance-gif-17517619

(appropriate soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TljApMdkWdo)

also, here's an arcane trickster rework

and a suite of rogue "multiclass archetype" feats that were totally not stolen inspired by PF2e (they were)

[cerulean isle]

That's really cool

Love the lvl 13

I've been kinda brainstorming how I'd do my own take on that and once I do sit down and do it (prolly once I'm satisfied with the alt battlerager) I'll steal draw inspiration from this

Like I intend to prolly give a benefit for each stack on the Thrill points, which get better and better the higher you get. Was considering a maneuver-like system that would perhaps eat the thrill points so you have to decide whether you want the benefits of a passive or the use of an active

I'm rambling and it's 1 am