Yasha's Heap of Feedback

[half pond]

If you know me from the Victoria 3 community, I'm so sorry, I'm about to pour my feedback out here like I do for Vic3 all of the time. There really is no better title other than... it's a heap of feedback from me, Yasha.

I already know that I've made quite a few feedback threads and posts on the forum and I'll just... funnel them here first.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/how-monaco-could-possibly-fit.1760313/
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/releasable-nation-thread.1745532/
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-maps-28-29th-of-november-2024-north-america.1718498/post-30319854
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-maps-28-29th-of-november-2024-north-america.1718498/post-30326650
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/polynesia-suggestions-for-project-caesar.1676107/

1. Polynesia, Melanesia, and Micronesia
   -Back when EU4 had first released Leviathan, I had praised its work towards Polynesia, as never before in a Paradox game had Polynesia been done with such accuracy, and comparing it to Paradox contemporaries (such as HOI4 who sunk Tonga underwater and Vic3 who gave Samoa to Tonga, something that they didn't own since... well since a bit before the EU5 startdate), but with EU5 my opinion has changed, and I quite literally mean that the way the Societies of Pops have been given out is... pretty bad. I think that the iTaukei getting one is smart, but Fiji has way too little locations and represents divisions from after the timeframe, which would make more sense as provinces if anything. For that matter, Hawai'i has concerning little as well (only five for Hawai'i and then three for the remaining islands). Also, a lot of nations that shouldn't be SoPs are, you can read my blurbs about them above as to why they shouldn't be, but Tonga especially should not be an SoP.

I've stated my blurbs on them before, but for ease of access, I'll put them here.

Tonga:

The Empire of Tuʻi Tonga was already deemed to be a SoP, which clears out me discussing those for requirements, but for the four criteria of being a Settled Country, it's a bit harder. Tax collection is definite, as Tonga had a system of tribute extraction from chiefdoms underneath it known as Inasi, which would occur during the harvest season at Mu'a, the capital each year, which James Cook even saw the ceremony in 1777, as they would offer various things as tribute to the emperor as offerings to the gods, which the Tu'i Tonga were recognized as such. Definite tax collection of some kind right there! As for a monopoly of violence, to be honest, this is rather hard to define, so I'll go by an easier metric in how centralized the authority of the nation was, which Tonga for sure was centralized, having warriors being able to be exerted all over core Polynesia, going as far as Kiribati thanks to the help of their Imperial Navy, which allowed for them to exert their political and economic control over Polynesia. In fact, this would go so far as for me to insinuate for Tongatapu to gain its own market separate from Ternate. Record-keeping was mostly done orally, which marks that one down which is consistent with almost all of Polynesia. Public works is the hardest for me to define, so forgive me, but from what I understand, Tonga did fulfill these conditions as they were able to build these burials grounds in one of the tomb hills where there are still two dozen langi (what they are called) in Lapaha today, and that's not counting the fale that the Tu'i Ha'atakalaua. Langi are big artificial hills surrounded by slabs of huge coral rock, and it definitely shows evidence of that. There are also other facets of government that existed, such as political advisors, organized military structure... so yeah!

From this, I conclude that Tu'i Tonga qualifies to be a Settled Country in 1337.

Samoa:

Samoa is unique compared to the others as it sort of mishmashes a lot of these, yet it still was plenty developed. This shall also include Tuʻi Manu'a since both are relatively similar. As it was already deemed to be a SoP, let's see how much higher we can take it! Public works are actually easier to define for Samoa since their system of governance under the Fa'amatai had built traditional meeting houses for their matai and significant orators in society, alongside various other fale, which is just for any house, at this time, not made out of metal, and there were a lot of houses, including the large meeting houses that were used for the fa'amatai system, so yes, public works were definitely present if they are to be believed that they were buildings built by a collective group. Authority is... unique. While yes there were noble houses who ruled as kings of Samoa, there were also chiefs, or matai, who acted as some sort of local governance, which the two often conflated with one another. So tiered government proves some sort of centralization beyond the chiefly authority, even if the matai are a very important political group in Samoa and even to this day, the matai still are significant to an overwhelming 96% of Samoans in their local affairs, but even then, Samoa in 1337 was not as centralized yet, and took until the reigns of Queen Nafauna to properly centralize Samoan authority, so this one is a mixed bag. Once again, all records are kept orally. Tax collection is the hardest one for me to define in Samoa's case as after Samoa gained independence, they obviously stopped paying their Inasi to Tu'i Tonga, but I honestly have no sources for if this goes one way or another.

All that I do know is that Samoa partook in trade and exerted some economic control of their own, being able to send their own ships out to export goods like cloth, even more so in the case of Tu'i Manu'a, who despite only being equivalent to American Samoa now, they still had all of the public works of Samoa, a more organized governance system more akin to Tu'i Tonga (especially due to the fact that Tu'i Tonga took a lot of influence off of Tu'i Manu'a's style of governance for things.), oral record-keeping, again, and a higher capacity to enter into economic relations with other nations in the area.

From this, I conclude that Samoa and Tu'i Manu'a qualify to be Settled Countries in 1337. (I'll talk about adding Manu'a later)

For this section, the Hawaiian Aliʻi consists of the Aliʻi Nui of Hawaiʻi, Maui (where it is incorrectly placed, because Lahaina is there), Hāna (who is weirdly absent, and Maui has consumed it too early), Molokaʻi, Oʻahu, and Kauaʻi (which can be spelled Tauaʻi due to the old dialect spoken before it was standardized) which I will cover together since there are no major differences in how each were governed from one another at the start of the game. Public works can be proved again, where in each of the islands they built sacred temples known as luakini where they did human and animal sacrifice, alongside other heiau, like Hale o Keawe, the most notable, constructed somewhere between 1475-1650 in North Kona as the burial site of the Aliʻi of Kona and the Aliʻi Nui of Hawaiʻi used until 1818, and it is still one of four places in Hawaiʻi where the Hawaiian flag can fly without the American flag alongside it, the other three being later constructions during the period of Victoria 3. Public works, yup! Records... oral, eugh... when will we get to a nation that has non-oral recording systems? (foreshadowing by the way). Monopoly of violence is... complicated, but if we're talking organized government structure, well this was certainly true! There were other Aliʻi underneath the Aliʻi Nui of the nation, which would rule a moku (or district), so inside Hawaiʻi, there were subservient Aliʻi for Kona, Kaʻū, Kohala, Hāmākua, Hilo, and Puna, which one of these moku was also the Aliʻi Nui of Hawaiʻi, and they would rule over the others, until it passed down to the next ruler from that moku, or another Aliʻi usurped the throne, which was quite common in this period for Hawaiʻi specifically. So yes, there was some form of proper centralized tiered government.

Finally, tax. Tax is pretty easy, the commoners paid tribute and supplied labor to their Aliʻi, since no one owned the land, but the Aliʻi were sort of like the managers of the land, and they were working under these managers.

From this, I can conclude that the Hawaiian Aliʻi of Hawaiʻi, Maui, Hāna, Molokaʻi, Oʻahu, and Kauaʻi can all be considered as Settled Countries in 1337.

Rapa Nui and Mangareva:

Rapa Nui is unique in that its record keeping system was oral AND written! Oral history was kept for the commoners, but for the elite, they were literate in rongorongo, an undeciphered system of proto-writing or writing that has yet to be proven as such yet, which might be one of the few independent instances of developing writing, which were written on wooden tablets mostly in boustrophedon orientation for likely sacred purposes. Record-keeping for this little island polity can be proven in spades. As for Mangareva, they were once again oral, but I'd like for us to pay a bit of attention to their development of binary by a few centuries before Europeans did as unlike other Polynesian nations, Mangareva developed their own form of binary counting as proven in 2013, which had to have been developed sometime after Mangareva was settled, which was sometime around the 11-12th century according to carbon dating, predating the discovery in Europe by about 500 to 600 years! It definitely has some development of its own we've yet to cover.

Okay, now back on track. Mangareva was considered the most important polity in the Gambier Islands and they two had their own Aliʻi, much like the Hawaiians, called the ʻAkariki which covered the same purpose in society, with the kings being the most significant of these ʻAkariki, which they came from the togoʻiti class in society, which was sort of the top caste in Mangarevan society. Centralized tiered leadership is proven! As for Rapa Nui, this was much of the same as well with their strong class system, where the ꞌAriki had great power over nine other clans and their respective chiefs, which was a hereditary system from the descendant of the first king of Rapa Nui, the nation's legendary founder, Hotu Matu'a, which does suggest the same for Rapa Nui as well. Rapa Nui and Mangareva also had the capacity to trade with a lot of nations despite their position and may or may not have had connections with some of the native peoples around the island of Chiloe in Chile. Public works can also be defined simply with... the moai, and despite their stone-toppling had occurred in the 18th century, their ability to construct these monolithic human figures in a quarry proves the evidence of public works for Rapa Nui. As for Mangareva, up to the 15th century, mass logging occurred by the islands population which led to deforestation, which despite it having consequences for the environment and economy, the island was able to support a large population off of that wood, which I'm not sure to count in favor or against, it's something. And of course, we come back to taxation and... I have no good evidence in support of either yes or no if they had any system of taxation or not! All I know is that the two were able to partake in trade with other islands, so they definitely had some economic process, but I'm unclear as to what it was, it likely was akin to the Hawaiian system, however.

From this, I can conclude that Rapa Nui and Mangareva can qualify to be Settled Countries.

Pohnpei and Kosrae:
Moving away from Polynesia, we head into Micronesia with Pohnpei and Kosrae. Pohnpei at this point beginning in the 10th century had an organized government which lasted until 1628 when an invasion from Kosrae caused the island to become into a decentralized chiefly system. Pohnpei had the massive Nan Madol complex constructed, which is pure evidence of a Public Work, no question about it. There were systems of taxation, known as uhpa (as a service) and nohpwei (first fruits, religious offerings essentially), which continued on in the more decentralized structure of Pohnpei after Kosrae decentralized the nation (albeit on a lesser scale). Tax collection is definitely there, alongside landlord classes overseeing commoners harvesting the land for them, with tributes of fruit (breadfruit during rak and yams, taro, and fermented breadfruit during isol) and fish frequent. Eventually this led to a starving populace and mass enslavement of the population, which led to assassinations against the Saudeleur dynasty, but they were still in charge. Centralized leadership was also present in Pohnpei as the Saudeleur dynasty developed a stratified title system where they gave various occupations such as advisors and guards. As for military, the Saudeleur dynasty had little concern with the military and this was a peaceful era for Pohnpei. Records were... oral.

With this, I can conclude that Pohnpei qualifies to be a Settled Country. As for Kosrae, their rulers ruled from Leluh, with a monarchy similar to that of Tonga and the rulers of the Aliʻi Nui of Hawaiʻi, with various social class divisions and an aristocracy. Centralized leadership is definitely present, alongside the public works of Leluh itself which had royal tombs, burial pyramids, and sacred spaces, generally built out of coral and basalt blocks, public works were present as well. Records were... oral as well. As for tax collection, there is no clear evidence that taxation occurred, however, I would not be surprised if they had a lighter version of the system found in Pohnpei.

From this, I can conclude that Kosrae can be a Settled Country as well.

I shall ignore my post on Kaimana as afaik, Kaimana was turned into a settled country in Western Papua, even if in my opinion, it should be called Sran and should use its historical flag.

[half pond]

This is roughly what Western Polynesia should look like in 1337. Tonga has control over all of Niue and Uvea-Futuna and the two can be released from Tonga (and are likely to appear on their own as Tonga enters into further decline), but with Fiji it's... complicated. Fiji was highly rebellious of a province of Tonga at this point so I'd consider it an SoP, that and the Fijian polities that were created following Tonga leaving in the 17th century (except Lau, they held onto that much longer and that was by far more influenced by Tonga) shared very little with Tonga. The three confederacies that we see that currently are there are a creation of something later on in the timeframe and should exist as releasables for Tonga and formables for the very tiny Fijian nations that might emerge afterwards. Samoa is freshly independent from Tonga and is surprisingly positive towards their old overlord, despite their unique circumstances, and then there's Manu'a, the nation that once ruled all of Western Polynesia before Tonga came along in 950 or so.

For more in-depth information on what I've written, please, look at my Polynesia thread that I posted above.

Moving onwards, to the Americas!

I've written a bunch about the Plaquemine as well, and they should really be considered as well as centralized nations. For that matter, so should many of the nations that De Soto found upon his explorations of the Southeastern Woodlands, such as those in Florida, Coosa, Etowah, etc.

Again, copying from my forum posts (excluding the Haudenosaunee, for obvious reasons), here's what I wrote:

Caddo Nations (Hasinai, Kadohadacho, Natchitoches):

Known as Hasíinay, Kadawdáachuh, and Náshit'ush in Caddo respectively, these groups came out of the Caddoan Mississippian society, who had many mounds of their own, where they were disrupted in the late 13th century.

To begin, each of these nations underwent extensive maize agricultural development, alongside distinct pottery impressing even the Spanish. The Caddo however, peaked around 1400, moving away from their large villages (with a lack of the wooden palisade defensive fortifications) to small farms, moving away from their ritual centers. That said, they engaged in frequent trade with other Mississippian mound nations, like Etowah, Ocmulgee, and Cahokia, and in their settlement of Spiro, they even had traCde all the way to Mesoamerica, which they split into the three nations not long after this decline. Kadohadacho had great relations with the Spanish and French, and suffered the massacre from the Chickasaw, leading to them joining up with the Natchitoches, who they played a huge rule in subjugating the Natchez in their wars, settling around Natchitoches, Louisiana.

As for the Hasinai, they had an attested organized government of their own, as despite the other two being confederacies of their own, Hasinai was centrally organized, under the control of a religious leader, the Grand Xinesi, who lived in a secluded house and met with a council of elders, with internal subdivisions, known as cantonments, under the administration of a Caddi, who was subservient to the Grand Xinesi. Points there for centralized government for Hasinai. Public works also were known for them as they constructed temple complexes of their own, which directly conflicted with the Spanish's Franciscan missions set up in Caddo land. Records were... oral. And for tax... nothing.

As much as I want to give them the thumbs up for 1337, which I will, there's a caveat I need to address. This is the Caddo Mississippian civilization, as the Caddo after them were much closer to hunter gatherers, and while they fill all of the qualities of a SoP, a lot of their settled country structure falls apart as they adopt more confederal government types (excluding Hasinai, who remained centralized)

For now, I am hesitantly saying that the Caddo nations of Hasinai (Hasíinay), Kadahadacho (Kadawdáachuh), and Natchitoches (Náshit'ush) are Settled Countries in 1337.

Hernando De Soto Paramountcy Nations (Coosa, Etowah, Cofitachequi, Joara, Ocute/Altamaha, etc.):

Speaking of de Soto, let's talk about his findings over in the Carolinas and Georgia. To make this easier, here's a table of me doing it for each of the nations.

Plaquemine Mississippians:

While they eventually broke into Natchez and Quigualtam and Plaquemine began to lose their ground following the 1350s, becoming a rump state around Medora, they, like Cahokia, have a good argument to be made here. So, what does Plaquemine have to offer? Plaquemine's settlements were mostly civic centers anyways, with their population spread across the landscape, but their most notable site, Medora, next to Plaquemine in Louisiana, has quite a bit of mounds for itself. This clears out the public works part for them, alongside various other Plaquemine settlements that they had going from Southern Louisiana to mid-Arkansas and most of western Mississippi. Plaquemine itself could've lasted as far as the 16th century, as it was supposedly uninhabited by 1600 CE, and despite Cahokian influence on the Plaquemine's northern mounds, they did last longer than Cahokia. Plaquemine also adopted maize agriculture, which led to the rise of some paramount chiefdoms in their territories stead, who then adopted a centralized state pattern, where the nobles, who were hereditarily related to the paramount chief ruled the civic sites, and then later developed social structuring by the 13th century, developing their own style of pottery, which they used to Mississipianize populations around them. But even so, complex political and religious institutions also exist in the Plaquemine area, akin to Cahokia. While they had no written records, Plaquemine all but qualifies to be a settled country of their own, which could offer a way to spur off the Yoron, Natchez, Avoyel, and other groups currently marked as SoPs, or to preserve pure Plaquemine culture and truly Mississipianize other groups around them.

With all this said, I believe that the Plaquemine should become a Settled Country like Cahokia in 1337.

So this has been a giant heap I've thrown out and uh... I'm not sure really what else to say, since it's been a reiteration of what has been previously said by myself, and I'm just putting it here since I don't want it to fall off people's radars.

I'll probably write more feedback, especially on North America and Polynesia, but also on Africa, Central and South America, and even bits of Europe and Asia, so do expect some more addendums in this thread. For now, this has been Yasha, signing off.

[wind yacht]

Wow! Thank you for the super detailed feedback on this, I'm forwarding it on. It's greatly appreciated 😄