Azul's Helper Pokémon Tier List

[minor echo]

Yeah so doduo is a lot faster than Toto

[wary cave]

Frequency is in seconds

[magic cliff]

Wow even pikachu is hella fast

[minor echo]

Yea pichu is worth evolving to pika. But not every pika needs to be a Raichu

[red orbit]

Just saw the Growlithe to Arcanine jump in frequency. That's just stupid.

Like actual stupidity.

Even a mid Growlithe is worth considering for evolution with that speed jump.

[torn whale]

The rankings aren't meant to account heavily for island specialties. We will get more over time, and the tier list was originally made before we knew they were fixed outside of Greengrass

[worn nacelle]

It might be ranked higher on a lot of lists but feraligatr is the third highest output berry specialist (after raichu and typhlosion) due to high berry strength

Depending on ingredient impact it should easily outclass dodrio

[torn whale]

Dodrio is the only flying berry mon if you don't count Swablu, while still having excellent stats esp for a 1-stage evo. Feraligatr does compete with other water types (probably wins in many cases), and has arguably the worst class of main skill in the game

If it remains strong in future updates it could very well reach S, but I have concerns about main skill power creep

[quaint patio]

What sort of pokemon are amazing at gathering ingredients?

[odd berry]

Your pokemon should say either Berry, Ingredient or Skill specialist in the top right

[cobalt cedar]

Is this for ingredient gathering in seconds? I’m missing some context

[visual cosmos]

Idk the specifics, someone else can possibly explain further

I just know lower frequency means they do majority of actions quicker

[wary cave]

Frequency is in seconds.
IIRC it is the time your pokemon helps at 0 energy

[cobalt cedar]

Does anyone know what "help" means? Is it rolling a dice between finding berry/ingredients/candy/skill activation? Or does skill activation have its own independent chance?

[wary cave]

Either berry or ingrediant proc

[quaint patio]

Sorry with my earlier question. I meant the best pokemon who are good at ingredients for cooking

[magic cliff]

gengar is one of the top unit for its fast gathering and mushroom, ditto have both slowpoke tail and leak i believe which r amazing for ingredient, the kanto starter r also very use for ingredient

[warped quartz]

Is ditto only good with slowpoke tails? Or leeks good too?

[torn whale]

Leeks are an excellent lv30 ingredient, you can only have tails at lv60 after all

[modest marsh]

ditto only has tails at lvl 60?

[tardy knoll]

Mine has leek 30 tail 60

Surely someone here has ditto with tail at 30

[torn whale]

Wrong. Only Oil and Leak can drop at lv30

[vernal orbit]

so Oil -> Leak -> Tails would be the best scenario

close one 😦

[tardy knoll]

Dang that means my ditto is still good

[neat elk]

main skill seed on a ditto really?

[tardy knoll]

Misclick

That was a tragic day

[neat elk]

how could you miss click it were you still half asleep?

[tardy knoll]

I wanted you see what the screen looked like if you gave it main skill seed, and there was no yes/no confirmation and it just fed it to ditto

This was the first week of launch and not much was known yet

[cursive ibex]

My slowpoke has tails at 30? Or are you only talking about ditto?

[minor echo]

Ditto

[quaint patio]

What nature's are good for ingredient finding pokemon?

I have a lot of rash nature pokemon don't know if that's good because of the decreased chances of main skill activating

[minor echo]

+speed and +ing are your best nature on ingredient specialists

[shell wyvern]

Rash is best if the main skill isn't that good, otherwise quiet is good (but requires a bigger investment cause of -exp)

[worn nacelle]

Rash is great, love my rash ingredient mons, can hardly notice the skill chance down tbh

[white cradle]

I feel like just like all the other natures that the skill natures are broken right now and when they are actually working in the future you'll feel it maybe a little more?

[heavy orbit]

The speed nature definitely works and the energy

It's hard to tell for others. But I feel like ingredients also works at least for me

[placid chasm]

Why’s vaporeon so high compared to other stone evos?

[odd berry]

we love water types and we love ingredient magnet

[idle oracle]

water for cyan beach?

or some other reason?

[torn whale]

Skill specialist for a really great main skill. Ingredient Magnet is pretty cracked

[sacred hinge]

I'm a noob, does being a skill specialist boost the main skill proc chance inherently (and if so by how much)?

[torn whale]

From obvservation yes. Not sure about the percentage increase

[fierce bison]

saw a japanese tier list

interesting how they value cooking mainskill pretty high

and helpful v low

[idle oracle]

slowbro A??

[minor echo]

These guys are whales

Of course they value cook pot and tails

They are awful for regular F2P

Getting one tail every 4.5 hours of play for F2P isn't worth running

These dudes blowing hundreds of whistles a week get a lot

[magic cliff]

I mean they also get to whale cheaper

🤣

[torn whale]

Over slowking is a huge oversight seeing how it's objectively better

Jalen's pretty spot-on

[stark kestrel]

why is dodrio good

[trim needle]

lots of berries and its berries are a fav on cyan beach

[wraith inlet]

Its speed also makes up for how bad flying berries are

[minor echo]

I still don't get why Marowak is better than Typhlosion

Typhlosion completely outclasses it.

Figy is 2 points stronger than Leppa. But Typhlosion is significantly faster

With the same ingredients

Arcanine and Jolteon at B is kinda funny. But Whistles>Arcanine/Jolteon I guess lol

[magic cliff]

Can arcanine jolteon skill chain into other skills

Like can the extra help proc skill or jusy berry and ingredient

[sharp oak]

how do you guys know so much😭😭

i just sleep and wake up

[idle oracle]

just berries and ingredients from what I've seen

[median sage]

Whistles>Everything

[frosty sinew]

you know seeing that other list raises an interesting point for me

is this tier list (the one here) assuming f2p? does paying actually affect the tiers? i guess if you paid youd need less ingredient mons

asking cuz i ain't giving this game a cent until the premium pass isn't stupidly expensive

[neon tree]

this is why they value cooking

when all you do is whistle cooking is op

this is that guys cooking pot

[frosty sinew]

how the heck do you get +515

[neon tree]

he has a team full of magnezone

porbably good camp too and all pot upgrades

[tardy knoll]

Remember kids, the strongest Pokemon card is the credit card

[arctic kindle]

lmao. It is interesting seeing the way it's valued - assuming F2P, what number of ingredients you can expect to get varies - you'd probably want to keep your cooking pot pretty maxed

[lunar current]

Why would you whale in this game. There is not even a leaderboard. 😂

[arctic kindle]

number go up

[fierce bison]

forgot to post source of said jp list

https://game8.jp/pokemonsleep/542600

also an early game tier list

[torn whale]

Spheal shouldn't be that high early game, it has really poor stats starting off

[neon tree]

yeah the johto starters are better

[torn whale]

Many early game mons are missing, like Gastly and Eevee

[snow sapphire]

It'll be fun to come back to this in a few months and see who comes out on top

[fierce bison]

yea not sure why some arent shown on the list

no explanations given for the missing mons

[sand wave]

has this game become competitivie ?

[naive kiln]

No

[sand wave]

oh ok phew, cus I just am struggling with snoozing style

cus despite getting higher scores I only am stuck at slumbering or dozing, and it's rare to get balanced

[minor echo]

Imagine Ekans in A tier

[frosty sinew]

I get this too so I just caught some cyan beach types. But then I got really lucky with caterpie

[sand wave]

yeah

[torn whale]

I could whip together an early game specific tier list rq

[eternal spire]

@torn whale all starters except eevee (if you count that) and caterpie are the best; chiko and bulba probably a tier lower

Basically any berry mon that hits a specific region will do fine

[torn whale]

That's literally what I have atm lol

Only Chikorita dropped down

[eternal spire]

I actually need grass this week

[sand wave]

Hmm jolteon or flareon ?

[torn whale]

Early game tier list I threw together in minutes. With baby mons (e.g. Pichu vs. Pikachu) I put whichever I think is best to catch from wild, but they're interchangeable tbh

[sand wave]

Both are good skills ngl

[sand wave]

Thanks

[frosty sinew]

This may be silly but I like seeing the baby mons in a tier list because that's who I'm catching, not the fully evolved mons , so I know who to look for! Thanks

[magic cliff]

Sus wood being sus in the baby list

Wabefett too 🤣

[torn whale]

The only ones that aren't there are Sudowoodo and Wynaut. You never want to use Wobbuffet and Bonsly is the worst mon in the game

[frosty sinew]

Surely bonsly can't be ... That bad

Oh god i looked at the help frequency

[magic cliff]

Bonsly help every 2 hr 🤣

[frosty sinew]

It's so bad

[magic cliff]

My best mons r all sus woods 🤣

[wraith inlet]

I've heard of eat the rich before but this is ridiculous

[worn nacelle]

Looks pretty solid although I can't see a reason for diglet to be over bellsprout, bellsprout evolves earlier and double evolves, same ingredients early game. Also I think rat is a tad high, as a rattatta it's extremely awful until it evolves.

But ofc I understand you just made this quickly!

[torn whale]

Great stats for a 1-stage evo, top mon for Taupe, only Leek lv30 mon besides Ditto so good to grab early

As much as I like Bellsprout it doesn't have an island to properly shine yet

Unlike my main tier list I tried focussing on non-Greengrass utility, otherwise it'd look mostly the same

Another thing for Bellsprout is it competes with Geodude for its role

The latter actually has play on non-Greengrass even if it's a generally worse line

[worn nacelle]

Fair enough if we're talking pre-evo stats. Bellsprout is competing with geodude for what? Potatoes?

[glass isle]

Also to evolve geodude to the final form of the evolution line, you only need linking cord which you get for free from research buddies. Easy evolution here!

[worn nacelle]

True! Although you get a free leaf stone very early on as well (and luckily leafeon is terrible 😅)

[torn whale]

Sry for late response, yeah as the other lv30 potato specialist

[arctic kindle]

How come walrein is an S?

[eternal spire]

Zone 4 probably

[arctic kindle]

Ohhhhh any berry Pokémon that matches one of the areas is obviously gonna be worth a bunch more

[worn nacelle]

Also the berry strength is very high for the ice berry, walrein's throughput is quite high

[minor echo]

Which is crazy seeing how bad spheal is

[idle oracle]

well at least spheal is very round

[arctic kindle]

Ahhhhhhh fair fair I see

Like grass is also very good as a neutral berry

[worn nacelle]

Yep grass and water are also good but ice is even better

[loud radish]

smallest Japanese player's meal

[glossy orbit]

why is sylveon in A tier?

[idle oracle]

good ingredients and a useful skill

[gleaming sable]

I mean I get why they value meals but I feel like you need to be p2p for that to really work out. Otherwise a more balanced play style works better?

[median sage]

Def, using fav berry to make dishes is the way to go

it definitely is slower in progression, but thats just how f2p is

[eager slate]

im glad i got a good spheal

[eternal spire]

Same

[void tulip]

There was a long term tier list in another topic but it seems to have disappeared. Is it still possible to find it somewhere in this forum?

[torn whale]

https://discord.com/channels/1129035839398228028/1140788734950903858

[void tulip]

Oh thank you!!!

He’s not appearing in my following topic and I’m still following it. Where did you find it?

[loud radish]

Does Tyranitar need a specific ingredients to be considered good?

[idle oracle]

yeah, soybeans

triple ginger is not that great

[loud radish]

frick

[proper snow]

so is this an alright larv?

[timid geode]

Considering the amount of work that needs to be invested in larvitar, it should be near optimal rather than just alright to go for it

[proper snow]

i do have speed of help and ingredient finder

[torn whale]

Helper Tierlist v13 Update & Changelog

Been about a month since the last update, not much besides changes in the top couple tiers:

• Typhlosion and Feraligatr from A to S: These deserve their place as they're the best picks for Taupe Hollow and Cyan Beach respectively. Meganium doesn't have a specific island yet so it's still A for now.

• Dugtrio from B to A: Such a good helper that it goes up yet another tier. Incredible stats for a 1-stage evo, relevant berry type and all three possible ingredient drops are excellent. Pairs so well with Charizard, covers a variety of recipes.

• Altaria from S to A: Just isn't as good as the other S tiers in the current state of the game. Poor stats for an evolved mon, and despite being the only source of dragon type berries they aren't particularly relevant. Could very well change based on islands in future updates.

• Various adjustments within tiers

[teal peak]

agree on the feraligatr bump; probably my MVP of Cyan, and reason I was able to get master 1 finally

[torn whale]

Btw I'm gonna do these monthly from here on out, making this September's

[scenic fulcrum]

I agree completely in these changes. Im on Cyan right now and Im seeing how good Feraligatr can be there not only for the berries but also for the ingredients. Also I was thinking about leveling a Swablu just for evolving it and unlocking dragon type berries but Altaria will not be so much useful for now outside of giving 20 diamonds.

[final nimbus]

as far as eeveelutions go, if im just looking within the A tier, any reasons to pick 1 over the other 2?

i guess it becomes subskill and nature dependent at that point?

[mellow jewel]

they each have a different berry and different Main Skill

so probably whichever one suits your team best in that way as well

[loud radish]

what makes Heracross good ? its ingredient pool?

[idle oracle]

it's a skill Pokémon with ingredient magnet

[loud radish]

ohhh right I forgot that they have faster cooldown for skill proc

it did proc twice today

[fringe lichen]

What’s proc?

[neon tree]

activate

[neon tree]

"programmed random occurance"

[dire gazelle]

Oh has that been confirmed

[loud radish]

I'm not sure but I hope it is otherwise their typing is just a waste of slot since there's ingredient mons that have ingredient magnet

[neon tree]

makes sense to me. berry specialist x2 berry. ingredient mon x2 ingredient skill mon x2 skill procs?

lol

[hardy stream]

Joining late on the conversation, but energy for everyone can boost the energy above 100%, so if it is at the beginning of the day it is not wasted

My wigglytuff this morning triggered energy for everyone at 99%

[lunar current]

It can, but you have to stay in the Pokemon Box for it not to revert back to 100% as soon as the first percentage is deducted. So you have 10 minutes to do your stuff and sit in this example for 3 1/2 hours on that screen to benefit from the excess percentage.
This is being fixed with 1.0.7 so likely no need to sit on the Poke Box screen. 🙂

[hardy stream]

I didn’t know about that bug lol

[lunar current]

I went to bed with my Altaria being at 106% because I waited in the Poke Box and coming out of it collecting my stuff, it triggered again

It triggered 3 times that day xD

[red orbit]

I stand corrected.

You must stay in the box.

However, I have the diamonds to reset the overcharge real quick.

[boreal coral]

so we have to leave the game with its pokemon box?! gosh it is boring

[red orbit]

Can you only have one pokemon overcharged at a time? For example, if I am an another pokemon's summary, will the percentage be lost?

[boreal coral]

u guys 100% sure that this damn bug shall be corrected at 1.07?

i really hope so

[sacred hinge]

have we confirmed that overcharging actually boosts help rate?

ah I guess the announcement implicitly confirms it

[red orbit]

I don't think it is confirmed it increasing beyond the 100% energy help rate, only that we know it's at minimum the 100% energy help rate.

[red orbit]

I have answered my own question. You only need to be viewing the pokemon summary screen. You can scroll between multiple overcharged pokemon. I want to test and see if an inactive pokemon decreases to 99%, because I don't know.

[sacred hinge]

hmm they removed the over 100 energy thing from the list of bugs to be fixed

[shell wyvern]

I have used "proc" for years without knowing the anti-acronym of it. Thanks 🙏

[lunar current]

oh wow, me neither

[frosty sinew]

Proc comes from procedure

I think programmed random occurrence showed up later

Or process

[eternal spire]

backronym maybe

jesus what did my hands just type

[proven night]

Wtf that’s what it means

I literally didn’t know either 💀

[boreal coral]

hey guys, are u following a nice strategy for earning 2 premium bisc you could share?

i was hoping to add some manual data today

[minor echo]

Doesn't work anymore

[vernal orbit]

@boreal coral ⬆️

[scenic fulcrum]

What you can do is doing only a manual sleep one day and get two bonus biscuits the next day

But doing a manual nap, then sleep that day will not give the second bonus biscuit the next day

Its fine to do it only if you know that some night you will no be able to track your sleep

[arctic kindle]

Wait what? This is news

[scenic fulcrum]

I don’t know the chances yet I think but it looks that skill mons have increased chances of triggering their skill

[torn whale]

The forum description was a bit outdated so tidied it up, check the pins for what was changed

[silver pecan]

Where did Mr mime end up on tier list

[odd berry]

Does anyone actually have a mr mime lol

[silver pecan]

Nah I forgot about it and went elsewhere haha

[eternal socket]

Just got one, looks like this

[sacred hinge]

it's a victreebel clone except with charge strength s instead of charge energy s, psychic berries instead of grass, and is a second stage instead of third (with an easier evo threshold)

[torn whale]

I already posted its stats in #datamine-discussion message

Mr. Mime's not going on the list yet, due to changes I'm thinking of making next month it might not go in the same place as it would now

[glossy orbit]

Is it possible for the new tier to get pinned?

[torn whale]

UPDATE: Tier List announcements will be posted in #resources-research-communities

[ashen spoke]

Oh God it’s so incredibly mid

[eternal spire]

nah it's slightly above mid

it has an inv up and ing finder

good ingredients too

[ashen spoke]

Oh word I just meant Mr Mime in general

[eternal spire]

oh true

[ashen spoke]

I wish Mr Rime was a direct evolution like Galarian Weezing

Some Galar forms feel a little redundant like Farfetch’d

[empty vessel]

@torn whale Is your list posted on 09/03 the most current version?

[torn whale]

It is

[eternal spire]

Why is ditto rated so highly? Because of having leeks and tails?

[shy nova]

The availability of early leeks, yea, same as dug

[warped quartz]

Can you pin the 9/3 tier list?

[torn whale]

@warped quartz

[arctic kindle]

Why is vaporeon so high

[narrow jacinth]

@blissful mortar hey can you pin v13 located here, please and thank you 🙂 #1133866288771518566 message

[narrow jacinth]

I would guess because it’s relevant for Cyan Isle, but ultimately outclassed by Blastoise, otherwise solid Skill mon with Ingredient Magnet, so similar to Heracross in that regard, where it’s proc focused over specifically Milk focused.

[arctic kindle]

that makes sense. Relevent berry mons are good.

I wonder if one of the reasons flareon is high is because it has that berry type WITH that ingredient type, so you can make more complicated dishes without sacrificing berry doubling

[minor echo]

Flareon is really your only preferred Berry that can make desserts on Taupe

[blissful mortar]

Done. Sorry about the wait, I was in class

[narrow jacinth]

No wokkas, people have been asking for a pin for a week or so, a couple of extra hours won’t hurt, focus on your class work.

[neon tree]

a tierlist without rats in at least A is boggus to me

walrein over rat?

https://tenor.com/view/doubt-press-x-la-noire-meme-x-button-gif-19259237

[torn whale]

I mean Walrein is better by a long shot. Faster helping speed and higher value berry means it has so much better gains. More useful main skill too, though charge energy s is gonna be reconsidered for the next tier update

[torn whale]

Gonna post an updated list within the next couple days. Just waiting to see Clefable's ing drops (expect a high placement)

[silver pecan]

Looking forward to it @torn whale

[torn whale]

Tierlist is out #mathcord-publishings message

[frosty sinew]

It's weird to see clefable's main skill praised in the tierlist despite metronome being objectively an average skill. It can't be anything above average by definition.

Just my personal opinion

[torn whale]

You gotta bear in mind berry and ingredient mons have only gotten the same bad main skills up to now (at least energy's buffed)

I wasn't praising Metronome in the changelog, instead that we can expect more variety from future additions

[frosty sinew]

I see

Yeah having an actually good skill on a berrymon like random ingredients on butterfree is pretty good. That makes more sense when I think about how many charge strength s we have

[torn whale]

Yeah Caterpie, Spheal and Slakoth are like the only exceptions for berry finders

All three of which are up there

[mortal maple]

Inb4 we get Berry Magnet main skill one day 😂

I also hope we can upgrade main skills in the future (S to M to L)

[torn whale]

I'm worried they'd nerf S effects to give incentive to build them up. Charge Energy already does like 50 at max

I say nerf but they'd call it "balancing" smh

[eternal spire]

What would M level 6 be

100?

[torn whale]

Then like 150 at L 🤯

Too overkill tho, no point going more than S

[scenic fulcrum]

They prefer to call it “fixing bugs”

[storm panther]

I may be blind and missing something but I do see a lot of notes about the energy rework/buff in the ranking changes. What was changed recently? I’m only aware of the up to 5% box sleep

[torn whale]

Earlier in the month several changes were made such that overcharging energy (above 100%) actually works

So the cap's technically 150% now rather than 100

[storm panther]

Ohhh interesting. I assume it only works with energy pillows or skills and sleep recovery caps at 100?

[torn whale]

Exactly

[pearl pond]

why is umbreon still in D tier when it’s the only snowdrop helper that can drop milk?

[neon tree]

because rattata exists and it drops apples for any week

[neon tree]

flareon in taupe is somewhat good because its the only fire one that drops milk

[torn whale]

Because it isn't the only one. Glaceon exists and is definitely more worth it for that niche

[ashen spoke]

What is the energy buff mentioned in the changes??

[mellow jewel]

@ashen spoke read from here

[ashen spoke]

Oh lol it was right there, thanks!!

[pearl pond]

how? they have the same frequency and umbreon has a better skill

you could run the rat strat and replace one with an umbreon if you wanted milk

[torn whale]

Rawst Berry has higher base value hence better gains. Any energy based skill that isn't the AoE is awful for a skills specialist mon: it's not like with berry or ing helpers that directly benefit from maintaining drop rate

Cooking Power-Up is an insane skill when building around ingredients, its lategame potential is mad

[pearl pond]

rawst berry is only 1 point better

[torn whale]

Much wider difference when you level up, and after including the fav berry multiplier

Heck it's better to just keep Eevee unevolved than use Umbreon lmao

[pearl pond]

at level 50 it’s only 103 vs 107

i’m not saying it’s optimal but the differences are minor

the only major factor imo is that rawst is only produced by spheal and glaceon

[torn whale]

Double that bc Snowdrop, and that's per berry. You're producing like 100 per day at that lv, the gap becomes clear as day at that point

At the end of the day neither evo is that good, you're better off going for another like Vap or Syl. For the Snowdrop Milk niche Glace is more optimized

[pearl pond]

so 700 by the eow hardly seems worthwhile when you get the extra production from umbreons skill. the extra pot size doesn’t seem worth until actual late game

[torn whale]

Even early on it's great, enables you to make many dishes beyond your capacity early. Great for unlocking those gems

Again, Glace has a much better build to take advantage of its niche ingredients. Who cares about energy on a mon with horrible gains compared to actually viable gatherers?

Also don't forget that comparison you made is only lv50, halfway of the projected end goal. Glaceon simply pulls ahead as time goes on

[torn whale]

Heck if you wanna talk about niches in the first place, Glace is the only Snowdrop mon with Cooking Power-Up. That's actually relevant to its specialty too

[pearl pond]

that’s actually a fair point. i think umbreon is viable when you consider that the rat strat is meta though

[torn whale]

What for, one salad and a couple desserts? Not even worth bothering for the Flan, honey would be hard enough to sort let alone eggs 💀

[trim needle]

What best eevee evolution

[eternal spire]

Sylveon

[pearl pond]

umbreon

[trim needle]

in game?

[pearl pond]

i’m just kidding

[random urchin]

leafeon

i genuinely love leafeon

shame it's kinda crap in every game

[pearl pond]

it’s one of the cutest and always gets shafted

[trim needle]

I'm asking about what is the best performing eevee evolution in the video game pokemon sleep

[eternal spire]

sylveon, as i already answered

[brazen thicket]

Pot size even early on is really slept on, unlocking recipes and leveling them earlier is awesome and if you have an ing heavy team you can really push ranks fast with a monday proc

[trim needle]

what makes Sylveon the best?

[snow aurora]

energy for all is a ridiculously good main skill

if you proc it consistently to keep your team's energy high it boosts production a lottt

[brazen thicket]

E4E is insane, and overall is about even with Wigglytuff so it works out

[trim needle]

hmmm

[scenic fulcrum]

Its not so bad in Pokemon Masters EX

[eternal spire]

leafeon is SS Erika, yeah? I loved that one

[scenic fulcrum]

yep

[torn whale]

Doesn't Adaman get it too?

That's the one I thought you meant being more recent and all (hence winning off powercreep)

[eternal spire]

Ohh

Idk SS Erika was pretty nuts [in 2021]

[scenic fulcrum]

Stopped playing before his banner

[tall river]

SS erika + adaman is nuts

since with you start the battle with sunny day with adaman

and at 3/5 you can extend his sun all the way until sync move

and refresh the sun

all while massive aoe + single DPS from B razor leaf and leaf blade and solar beam from erika

and 2x grass rebuff

if you say screw defense and go all in on offense you can also bring support sprig or something

with grassy terrain

just to mess things up even more

[eternal spire]

i'd bring in SS Red for the memes

[sacred hinge]

ss red isn't that impressive these days

[shrewd orchid]

new Red is the King

articuno

goes Brrrrr

like the old days

[trim needle]

this is pokemon sleep tier list thread

[eternal spire]

Jeez

[indigo meadow]

there's a few tier lists which one do we follow. the other one in guides is similar but different in placements

[storm panther]

Should just be the most recent version I believe

I dunno if that’s this one or the one in guides (and I’m too lazy to check lol) but

[torn whale]

You mean the long term tier list? It's pending for an update but provides useful info on individual mons, would still check it out

[indigo meadow]

ok ty

[potent orchid]

I like to use tier lists as a guide but not an end-all-be-all. By combining tier lists, hard data, and personal experience, you can get at least a general idea of what's good.

For example: both lists say Charizard, Raichu, and Gengar are top tier, so they probably are. But one list has Ditto below Dugtrio, while another has Ditto above Dugtrio. Which one is correct? Idk for sure. Probably depends on what you're looking for. Ditto is good mostly cause it can have slowpoke tails (and a little cause it has leeks), but it's frequency and capacity aren't that great. Dugtrio is good because it has pretty good frequency and alright capacity, but it's ingredient list isn't as good (still can have leeks though). So which one is better? It's up for debate, but they are at the very least both useful

[storm panther]

It also comes down to island as well as we’ve seen and what your team looks like. From what I’ve heard, people love pairing Dugtrio with Char line

[unborn cove]

Why is Lucario ranked so high? Everyone tells me he's crap! Absolute crap!

[potent orchid]

Lucario has pretty good stats and ingredients, the issue is that it's a skill mon with a bad skill. If it were a berry or ingredient mon, then im pretty sure it'd be at least high tier

[shrewd orchid]

☝🏼

[topaz garnet]

Lucario is the fastest oil farmer you can get early to mid game-wise - the alternative is to use the croagunk line (which is slow as heck), or sealeo (which is also slower than luc, but you can at least consider it an investment towards walrein. A very, very long investment tho, mind you).
Oil is needed for a lot of middle-tier dishes.

[sacred hinge]

but toxicroak drops twice as much oil as lucario per proc (more at higher levels), has like 1.5x the ing proc rate, and is at least 3/4 lucario's speed

lucario has the benefit of being a level-free evolution I guess

(on the other hand why does riolu take 80 candies to evolve? other babies, including 2-stage babies like bonsly, take 20, except mime jr who takes 40 for some reason)

[eternal spire]

Eevee takes 80

Oh I guess it's not baby

But has the same evo req

[minor echo]

Really making people work hard for the fan favorites

[arctic kindle]

Hey, isn’t slaking better than we thought on here?

[valid smelt]

Yeah, I believe you’re referring to this message

#mathcord-publishings message

[light gust]

nvm - saw the updated post

[arctic kindle]

Yes! Bingo.

[magic cliff]

Does anyone figure out where clefable stand in the tierlist?

[shrewd orchid]

S tier iirc

[torn whale]

When writing that I completely forgot ing magnet exists. In my defense only 3 berry mons get it

And didn't mention that its ing drops are particularly good for Cyan

[arctic kindle]

I don’t understand the slaking entry. Berry finding rate is just “whenever you don’t get an ingredient” right? The site I’m looking at also doesn’t have a list for the main skill chance — are those recorded skmewhere?

[torn whale]

They are somewhere on Mathcord, don't have the link on hand. But back when I wrote that changelog, I actually pulled data off some Japanese site which used outdated info

Slaking actually drops ingredients way more often than normal, not berries like I said. It's got like a 30% chance for ings when most berry mons are normally just 15-20%

The skill rate is the real boon, iirc it's like on par with how frequently skill specialists use them (which is higher than usual)

It's actually the second highest rate after the Slowpoke line, so better than even skill specialists 🤯

[shrewd orchid]

oh wow

yeah thats crazy

[torn whale]

It should probably go into A next update, if Vaporeon and Heracross are there for fast ing magnet it only makes sense

[idle oracle]

slaking procs more than heracross, but less than vaporeon

[torn whale]

Sounds right if factoring in helping speed

Pure trigger % Slaking's higher than both

[arctic kindle]

Ooooooh I see! Is that also on the info website that’s posted? I’ve seen the ingredient chance entry but idk if I can figure out where the skill chance is

[torn whale]

If you mean the Google spreadsheet yes

[arctic kindle]

Oh I thought https://pks.raenonx.cc/en this

[torn whale]

Updated the template for 1.0.11 with the new mons. https://tiermaker.com/create/pokmon-sleep-all-helpers-tier-list-16021791

[torn whale]

The 1.0.11 Tier List is finally out! #mathcord-publishings message

[hexed tide]

Hi - Does anyone know if the base frequency chart is reflective of a pokemons main skill frequency? If not, is there an infographic or acess to that information? I can't seem to find it on Serebii or anywhere else

[idle oracle]

we don't know much about main skill frequency

[minor quarry]

Is there an updated nature + skills tier list available anywhere?

[hexed tide]

ah gotcha - what's the new helpers tier referencing then with Vaporeon and Slacking and what not?

[idle oracle]

we can compare relative speed between mons with the same main skill

so we can compare Slaking and Vaporeon, but not Slaking and Raichu

and we also don't know the actual proc rate of Vaporeon and Slaking, just that Slaking procs almost as much as Vaporeon

[hexed tide]

ah gotcha thanks for the clarity!

[torn whale]

That was from comparison of strength gained from their berry generation. I'll try to find the graphic

It's the 🔥 numbers on the berry row

Neutral nature, lv30, berry finder s

[hexed tide]

ah gotcha thank you! What website/calculator is this?

[potent orchid]

https://pks.raenonx.cc/en

it's still not perfect iirc but it's pretty good

[hexed tide]

sweet thank you for the help!

[valid smelt]

Wait it can calculate berry/ingredient percentage?

Pog

[brazen thicket]

It can do a lot, you should check out team analysis there as well it's insane

Put in your island and your pokemon and sort by power from the box and you'll have a really goood idea of who your best pokemon will be for that round throw htem in a team and 🙂

[trim needle]

Wait a minute there are now 2 tier lists?

[potent orchid]

If you're talking about the one that just got posted in #mathcord-publishings , then it's a different one than the one that was posted the other day

They aren't official or 100% "correct" tier lists. They are just different tier lists based on different things

The one that was posted yesterday is based on opinions (I think I'm not 100% sure), and the one posted today is based on a combination of the 4 metrics they provided. They're gonna look pretty similar, but as with any tier list it is up to you to decide whether or not you want to follow it

No tier list for any game ever is gonna be "100% correct" and there will always be someone who thinks it's wrong in one way or another

[whole valley]

Yeah the biggest differences I noticed between the two lists were venusaur, houndoom, ditto, and butterfree

[trim needle]

I AM CONFUSED

[eternal spire]

Butterfree has been overrated from the beginning. The only thing it has going for it is its speed and how easily it can evolve. But it has a really weak berry and no favored island.

[whole valley]

So are you saying it’s also overrated in Azul’s current list?

[eternal spire]

I could see a case for it being low-A tier

but its most comparable counterpart is Walrein, which, except for its massive EXP cost to train, is better by a lot

[brazen thicket]

Man the new tier lists are interesting but I find dish synergy for example to be such a weird one to incorporate into the main thing, mainly because I only bother to focus on a handful of recipes since leveling it is so insane. Like for curry I'm all in on heaty cheeseburger until I unlock leaks/mushrooms for ninja curry.

At lvl 37(for the dish) the gains from it are hard for me to waste leveling up bulk up bean curry on or anything else that doesn't need potato/leek/mushroom/tail, and it's easily covered by 2 pokemon that are good on their respective islands (Squirtle/Charmander) and have a respective island. I can pretty much always make it with just 2 pokemon being factored in, and until I challenge snowdrop (Hopefully have those T3 recipes) it will be one of my ingredient mons getting the berry bonus too.

Maybe I'm just missing how useful it actually is, but it seems to not have the same weight I'd want from those other 3 lists tbh, just my 2 cents

[tardy knoll]

I too have been grinding hearty cheeseburger but I soon as I unlocked potatoes a level 1 dream eater butter curry beats it easily

[tardy knoll]

Agree. I have level 33 butterfree that I never use and kinda regret. Like venusaur honey-tomato is just bad combo. If it was bfs it might be slightly useful but overall completely outclassed by raichu

[torn whale]

I moved Butterfree down alongside the "good berry mons in A that'd be S with a favoured island" group, not giving much more thought than that

But with how subpar its gains are neutrally compared to other specialists, you'd have to get a very specific combo of fav berries for Butterfree to shine

There's several berry mons I would've ranked differently, but with how massive the changelog already is I overlooked some stuff

[loud radish]

Glad Wiggly at S-Tier, I knew it should be

just a snowball machine, and sneaky snacking while sleeping from staying high energy all day is great

[torn whale]

I still remember early days when I originally had them top tier, but got too much backlash bc people didn't think energy was that valuable

[eternal spire]

@torn whale look who's laughing now

[white cradle]

Very true but you also had the snail speed slowpoke evos and mid altaria up there with 'em.
Although it is a good early game move to unlock Slowpoke tails and they are the only way to do it, and the tier list weighed uniqueness that pushed altaria up there with em.
I was one of those energy naysayers though, my bad. Sylveon should be #1 again for the next version. Back to the top it rises!

[torn whale]

It was also a more level playing field: those earliest iterations were when we didn't even know fav berries were fixed outside Greengrass

And to avoid any misconceptions I wasn't directing that statement at anyone, just some petty bragging rights lol

[scenic fulcrum]

But energy was bugged at early or we thought it did nothing at early right?

[scenic fulcrum]

Now I think mushrooms and leeks are more better than tails because you will be able to make some of the best dishes earlier

I mean a slowking will not give you enough tails but you unlock mushrooms and leeks on ing mons that will give you more of these

Unfortunately earlier you are capped because of the pot size but I still think its fine to unlock them

[torn whale]

Energy above 100% was yeah, it'd reset back down

I and a few others did notice energy impacted speed of help, but it wasn't widely accepted

[scenic fulcrum]

I remember that energy was highly underrated back then. And its still underrated but at least we know its impact now.

[white cradle]

I don't think it was bugged because what we know about it now lines up with how from the very beginning I noticed about half as productive helps when at 0 energy, what threw it off partially was that constantly staying in the game and tapping was even more effective than max energy lol

[silver pecan]

Where's Onix going 🙂

[scenic fulcrum]

We don’t know ingredients yet

[snow aurora]

F tier 😎

[idle oracle]

probably S tier if I'm guessing

S or A for Onix, A or B for Steelix

[eternal spire]

I think high A for Onix and low A for steelix

Depending on how the consensus rates butterfree

As well as availability

[idle oracle]

Steelix will be S as soon as there's a steel island

[glass isle]

Onix still can't compete with the cybdaquil line in Taupe, but it's gonna be super valuable as soon as steel berry island is added to the game. Unless the Steel berry island also have electrical berry as favored berry

[torn whale]

This is basically it yeah

[scenic fulcrum]

Yeah, they are fast, berry mons and they are the best berry mons for their berries. Onix is slower but have the fav berry from one island

[carmine lake]

W

[torn whale]

I'm gonna leave the tier list update for next month, mainly because I've been too busy lately but there hasn't been much to add besides Onix/Steelix

[light gust]

is there gonna be a new tier list when delibird and snover come out?

[glass isle]

Where do I see the stats of the new mons?

[eternal spire]

@glass isle pks, but not everything is there yet

[torn whale]

Yes

[torn whale]

It'll be out within the next couple days, Abomasnow's placement might surprise you 😜

[torn whale]

I lied it's out now! #mathcord-publishings message

[trim needle]

Thanks you 🙏

[torn whale]

For the time being if anybody wants an explanation for specific changes lmk

Getting late here so unlikely to respond immediately

[trim needle]

Delibird in S tier cuz if not then you would be put on naughty list right?

[torn whale]

https://tenor.com/view/xmas-christmas-plans-list-done-gif-27229418

[static karma]

Would it be possible to get an explanation on the new mons? ALong with houndoom's new placement? Thank you!

[torn whale]

The simple version for them:

Delibird has an OP ing combo in egg/apple, good enough stats for a single stage mon. Ing magnet is icing on the cake.

Abomasnow's overrated bc ing finder egg mon. Its set of drops are an awful combo, mushroom and tomato don't synergize with it

Holiday pika's a clone of Halloween, 'nuff said.
That was the rationale, but as it loses its specialty to run shard magnet it should've been placed E

Onix is the 2nd best berry mon for Taupe and generates great value, makes Marowak look like a joke.

Steelix has potential as neutrally steel berry is one of the top 3, doesn't have a place over Onix rn.

Houndoom I wanted higher for a while I kept forgetting to move it 😅
Has one of the best ing synergies in the game for some reason. Dark berry's value barely saves its low helping speed

[dire gazelle]

Holiday pika is different to halloween

It's a skill mon with dream shard magnet

though that will probably mean it gets put lower lol

[static karma]

Thank you! 🙂

[torn whale]

Oh mb serebii had it as charge strength from datamines, I was gonna look into ds magnet for all mons post-update anyway

[dire gazelle]

I feel like the better dream shard mons could be put at least in d but the skill doesn't seem too valuable outside these candy boost events

[torn whale]

Indeed, if any were to move up it'd be Lucario. Potato Egg is actually respectable niche

[loud radish]

Cool that Delibird is good! Its one of my fave design-wise

[torn whale]

Progress is coming along nicely 😉

[torn whale]

Which is preferred for specialty indication, text or coloured background? Note these colours won't be final, ones that are more in-line with the game's would be used

[obtuse loom]

Those colours look fire

[daring socket]

Text imo. Coloured bg optional

[torn whale]

They're default Sheets palette tho, which means it'll change between light and dark themes

I'm hoping that doesn't happen when set custom

[brazen thicket]

Text better IMO

[light gust]

I like having both options tbh

[loud radish]

wait how do I check pins on new updated Discord mobile

wtf

[lunar current]

Click on the thread title on the top > settings > pinned messages

[loud radish]

in settings lmao ty. most normal discord UI change

[torn whale]

Need some suggestions on graphics to fill these blanks

[odd berry]

I saw the new tier list in the mathcord, why is Pinsir S tier? And does it need particular ingredients in its list to be S tier?

[eternal spire]

Yes, it needs 2 honey and 1 apple

It destroys dessert week

[torn whale]

Just an fyi future updates are no longer gonna be in Mathcord but directly here, much like before. Most likely continuing in #mathcord-publishings, but I'll figure out exact details with Deebs in time for the next announcement

[odd berry]

i have 3 honey and no apple... why can't I have no honey and 3 apple?

[torn whale]

Because that's literally impossible lol

Honey is guaranteed as the first ing drop

For a specialist, only one type of drop is horribly inefficient in the first place

I suggest waiting for my spreadsheet to release. What's on there would answer everything you've asked

[random urchin]

i think byz was making a reference to the simpsons

https://tenor.com/view/three-kids-no-money-homer-gif-23974472

[torn whale]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-well-fine-ok-whoops-oops-gif-20212592

[random urchin]

https://tenor.com/view/the-more-you-know-gif-26317296

[torn whale]

So I'd say the sheet about 70% done. Good chance it'll be out end of next week

Gotta tidy things up between mobile and desktop, actually write the tier list explanation and tie everything together

I still have a dozen mons to explain tier places for too. I'm doing them all from scratch

[torn whale]

Is an archive section for the outdated tier list graphics something people would want? I personally don't see the point, it's not like you can go back to an older version, besides there'll be changelogs if you're curious how a certain mon's viability changed over time

Btw it's like 80-85% finished now

[lunar current]

Imo, it would be „interesting“ but not necessary.

[torn whale]

Yup I'm of the same mind

[unborn cove]

Hey folks, don't be afraid to use a "weak" Mon if you like them a lot, every Mon in the low tiers have some ing and skill niches!

Croagunk is great for oil!

[trim needle]

no thanks

[torn whale]

Idk kinda reads like copium bc I didn't rate the mon you like highly, but could be me

There definitely is worth in using actually good helpers, e.g. getting access to more mons. All the more important for using favs since they might be gated by progression

[torn whale]

I wouldn't even go as far as giving it that. Oil is only used in inefficient dishes with low strength gains against cost, amongst the two exceptions it doesn't even hit the mark for one and both aren't feasible goals without dedicating entire teams

Any niche is only present in the first week or two of gameplay, which to be fair kept it outta bottom tier

[unborn cove]

Dang really??

So, Oil is just a bad ingredient?

Hm

[torn whale]

Slowpoke Tail Pepper Salad and Spore Mushroom Salad are relevant uses, but as I eluded to those are tall orders without lv60 ing unlocks

[unborn cove]

Right I see

[hexed tide]

Is there a specific qualification to see the ranking discussing in the mathcord?

[obtuse loom]

What do you mean the ranking discussion?

For this tier list in specific, it's discussion thread had moved here

The Mathcord does not host this tier list any more

[hexed tide]

#mathcord-publishings message

So the explanations for these placings are in this thread?

[torn whale]

As it said in the announcement it's still in the works. Not long till release now, just keep an eye out in one of the community threads or here till it happens

[hexed tide]

ah yes I saw that I'm sorry I didn't mean to ask that - I guess I'm more so wondering Azul did you make the whole tier list yourself or do you have a group of people that you talk to about it? Was just seeing if there was a thread where the discussion was happening before the final product that I could sift through in the meantime. No worries if not I appreciate your work 🙂

[torn whale]

I've been creating and updating it myself since the first couple weeks of Sleep's release. I've had conversations with several users generally which have shaped my opinions, but I wouldn't consider that a proper part of the process.
Almost everything for this spreadsheet I created from scratch and haven't shared yet. Any sorta exception would've been here, about graphic design rather than actual content tho

[hexed tide]

Ah gotcha gotcha. Well I view your rankings all the time (especially the frequency one) and I appreciate you doing this for us ☺️

[torn whale]

Oh that one's by @snow aurora 😅

[obtuse loom]

The frequency and meal ones are made by Mathcord and SleepAPI respectively

[torn whale]

So comparing to ing mons is wholly unreliable as different factors affect their performance. Even if it outperforms Dodrio neutrally it's another story bringing Cyan into the equation. Butterfree I've been looking to move come the next set of changes so I won't say too much

My only mons that beat it in level 50 comparison are my Walrein and Raichu...
Again not a fair comparison, everyone will end up with varying skill/nature sets

Anyway, even if you're seeing respectable performance from Arbok what can you do with that? Neutrally there's like half a dozen better helpers so it's not your neutral berry spam, it has no favoured island beyond the rare poison Greengrass

I'm not sure what you're even doing to begin with, most resources I've seen show Arbok's berry performance as the lowest only after Marowak

Every specialist I put in S or A tier Arbok doesn't hold a candle to

Again it's not even competition to Walrein, if it's winning before you even double its performance for Snowdrop it's a lost cause

If you're leaving out certain mons/builds just bc you don't have them, you're doing an unreliable study

Okay, but you're making it out like Walrein and Raichu are the only berry mons that surpass Arbok

Everything gets better after level cap not just Arbok, many mons improve by far greater margin in fact

You're using Butterfree, one of the weakest berry mons, as your baseline. That isn't gonna prove much at all

Wrong? You're either looking at one of my tier lists from several month ago, or someone else's

[dire gazelle]

according to this even the high power of chesto can't save it

https://www.reddit.com/r/PokemonSleepBetter/comments/17pnusl/berry_specialist_comparative_analysis_with/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

[torn whale]

The topmost pin literally tells you where the latest tier lists are being posted

One begs the question why you're even criticizing a tier list from over 4 months ago, instead of trying to find a more recent one, to begin with 🧐

If you read the announcement you'll know where the tier list is being kept

Unless you mean the sheet's not loading? Client-side issue for sure

[torn whale]

It's not that few any more, and the latest ones we got (Delibird, Aboma) are pretty damn strong. Similar thing I said to other bad berry mons, even with ideal island you'd need the other two fav berries to fall under half what it can pull from, in order for Arbok to be a top pick

If anything that future viability argument works against it, over 1 hour base frequency gonna age like milk

[obtuse loom]

Just wanted to hop in

Butterfree was S tier a long while ago because it was a stupid fast 3rd evo for players just starting out. 4 months ago, we were all players just starting out. Likewise, ingredient mons have changed places since getting Level 30 has been more consistent. Other mons have changed places since getting Level 50 has been more viable. Two months ago, rating on Level 50s was a little silly. A month before that, rating in Level 30s was a little silly. The threshold of quality is evermoving - the more time that passes, the more realistic the expectation that you'll have better and better mons.

This is why, from one month to the next, with no addition of new mons, tier lists can change drastically. People have had an additional month playing the game, they're going to have better mons.

Arbok wasn't spectacular early game, and is mediocre now. It's so bad though that even if we get a Poison island, it will still likely be low tier (unless the other Berry options on that island are complete and utter trash, like Oran to Cyan being hella boosted bc Flying and Fairy both suck)

Sound about right, Azul?

[torn whale]

Spot on. All I wanna add is viability at higher levels adds onto our existing knowledge. So we can consider lv50 viability while giving regard to the early game strats, forming a strict improvement over our understanding of things in the past

Take this model's example. We may have projected something to be good early on, but filling in the data as months pass could lead to something different being mapped

[trim needle]

Arbok is ass

[frosty sinew]

It's crazy how close arbok and butterfree are in performance

[torn whale]

Are you sure you're not just defending Arbok outta bias, looking at your profile and all? Belue is literally the 2nd best berry in the game, Arbok will never hold a candle to Steelix. On every resource I've seen published Primeape is ranked well above Arbok, in the upper echelon of helpers. You shouldn't be making such outlandish claims unless you have a valid source.

You're also assuming new islands won't feature any berries also on Cyan, Taupe and Snowdrop when we have no precendent to base off

In fact, looking back at resources some of them have Arbok listed as the worst neutral berry specialist

So there are literally zero possibilities where Arbok would be the desired helper, even with fav berry

[torn whale]

No not really, what's the point of all that foundation when it doesn't build toward anything worthwhile? Take Butterfree again, it actually makes being an early find relevant since it's good early unlike Arbok

A completely neutral and even some negative Steelixes would outperform Arbok, that's how much better its kit is. Primeape also has those early starting benefits you're bragging over; being the only good fighting type isn't a negative whatsoever, every berry specialist is the only one of its type excl. normal

Idek what you're going on about here, this is purely conjecture and does nothing to justify Arbok being good

I asked if you have any sources that justifies Arbok being any viable compared to top performers. If you want your claims to be taken seriously you should provide some, otherwise this all just comes off as copium for your favourite mon

Your what? You haven't provided anything beyond anecdotal claims

The mons out of your party? What, you're not seriously suggesting I should make my general purpose tier list tailored toward Zaltys' collection are you? 😅

Because not only is it a moot point compared to all the other things I refuted with, it's again not based on anything beyond your conjecture

Not to mention it's you tunnel-visioning on Steelix when you're meant to be proving Arbok is good. As if there aren't like half a dozen other mons you're ignoring 🤣

I could go on about how Typhlosion, Feraligatr, Meganium, Banette, Dodrio, even just base form Onix are all so much better than Arbok. Where does your "rarity" agenda fit then?

Again, you have continued to provide zero evidence for anything you've said. Where are you getting figures like Onix being so rare "players won't see for months" from? Just your own profile again?

Because it could very well be all the time you spent with Arboks in your party resulted in such poor strength gains you're not reaching the threshold for rare mon encounters 😅

You haven't posted even one screenshot nor link, in what capacity did you provide any soft of evidence?

[open apex]

Guess even deleting the posts wasn't enough. How many times are you going to keep pointlessly pinging me about this? I'm trying to work here.

[torn whale]

For context anyone reading back: guy dies on a hill defending Arbok, realizes they had no leg to stand on then pulls the world's greatest backpedal deleting all their messages

Pretends they aren't as guilty of mass pinging by hiding all their attempts, one of the Discord moments of all time

It was a troll all along? 🤔

[visual cosmos]

Azul, does Houndoom need Leeks to be worth investing in? Or is BFS and a passable nature good enough?

[torn whale]

Not at all, it's icing on the cake

[eternal spire]

this was a pretty entertaining read ngl

[torn whale]

It's funny that they deleted everything after I showed screenshots of their messages, like what's the point 😂

[eternal spire]

Arbok is the 3rd worst berrymon in terms of overall strength, behind Marowak (which has a favored island) and...Slaking.

[torn whale]

wa3v/Mathcord's more recent one had it dead last

#mathcord-publishings message

[eternal spire]

Well he included favored island, I'm assuming everything here is neutral

but in either case, it's still not good

[torn whale]

Oh I should add, some cases it's better not to have it. Better focusses meals like Overheat Ginger Salad

[visual cosmos]

I am nearing the ability to raise up to level 50 mons, and with discussion of your new spreadsheet i'm wanting to dive back into the game more seriously and better evaluate what mons I have that might be worth investing in

I apparently made the mistake of thinking Delibird was butts, didn't catch a single one over the event

[torn whale]

Same here, I poured basically everything into one shiny and slowed the rest's exp gains massively

[visual cosmos]

[scenic spade]

#1136994381828722708 message

Wa3v hasn't updated this but this is the best to compare all berry mons

[torn whale]

For more about Delibird, McMomo and his discussions about the Sleep API on Mathcord go into way more detail than I did. Would definitely look into that for its practical uses and meal synergies

[eternal spire]

@scenic spade it's ok, I did

[scenic spade]

Oh, thats very nice, thanks

Damn, Banette is so good actually

[visual cosmos]

I ended up recently dumping shards and candies into what were my generically good mons a week or two ago. But I would imagine 25, 30, and 50 are probably the best break points based on meaningful ING/Skill gains

Bannette being good is great, I have tried catching Shuppets whenever they appear and recently hit the 10 breakpoint

[visual cosmos]

Thank you for this

[ember isle]

Does someone have a link to the most recent tier list I can’t seem to find it

[torn whale]

It's the bottom post in #resources-research-communities

[sinful hearth]

Been looking at the tierlist, and it says Gengars best ingredient list is herb/herb/oil? Wouldn't mushrooms be better?

[eternal spire]

it's better for slowpoke tails dishes at 60

[torn whale]

Not "best", it says "recommended". Both spreads have their use, I opted for the other bc Aboma has much greater utility w/ Shroom

And Golem too, it's better to run either those long term

[hexed tide]

Is mathcord server invite only? Can’t seem to look at the tagged groups that are posted about it

[mellow jewel]

#general message invite link here for the mathcord

[hexed tide]

Appreciate you 🤍

[torn whale]

Early impressions of Lapis Lakeside update: Meganium, Primeape and Espeon are winners, who knows how the latter two hold up against Gallade, Bewear and Gardevoir

[eternal spire]

Makes sense

Lucario is also a winner right

[torn whale]

Better remind myself how I drafted it, planned on moving it up even before Lapis

[torn whale]

I wouldn't call it a winner only bc Lapis, also it's the best Dream Shard Magnet mon with a decent enough ing pool

[trim needle]

If Gallade isn’t good I will cry

[shrewd orchid]

iirc Lucario is very low (Rank E) on tierlist right?

[torn whale]

@shrewd orchid at the moment yes

[frosty sinew]

i have the best lucaio anyone could ask for up to level 49 and they're still not great

although its mostly because cheri berries suck

they have a pretty great help interval though

[torn whale]

It's the potato/egg combo you want for it, not so much berries. Not that they won't help for Lapis

[torn whale]

Greengrass Corn hype 👀

https://tenor.com/view/corntastic-corntastic-day-have-a-good-day-good-day-corn-kid-gif-26433958

[visual cosmos]

@torn whale do you have a link to your tier list? Apparently I lost it and I have spent the last 5 mins scrolling up and down Pokemon Sleep & Mathcord to no avail

[torn whale]

It's in #resources-research-communities message

[visual cosmos]

[torn whale]

An actual image will be posted when the 1.1.0 edition is ready

[visual cosmos]

I was wondering if it's this Bulba's time to shine, I feel like I and caught over 20 of them lol

I am not really ready for Lapis, but kinda wanting to just jump right into it upon release

[torn whale]

I got one really similar to that earlier today lol

[visual cosmos]

I think these were my best 2

[torn whale]

Meganium is far and away the best mon for Lapis, Primeape's pretty decent too. I predict Gardevoir/Gallade will compete

[visual cosmos]

Unfortunately I have never had much luck with Chikorita

[torn whale]

That first Bulba is more versatile prioritize that

[visual cosmos]

Also never really prioritized Mankey during my time on greengrass, so nothing there either xD

If I plan to swap mid week to Lapis, my score doesn't carry over right? I should just be stockpiling ingredients atm?

[torn whale]

It doesn't. Wouldn't bother saving ings if you're alr close to max capacity

I'm still filling pot with 300+ to spare

Though you may want more if you're gonna upgrade pot straight away

[visual cosmos]

I'm at 133/320 after Sunday's meals

[torn whale]

So looking at the datamines my type predictions were all correct 🤓

No specialist or ing data yet, that'll wait for actual release it looks like

Wait no we do have specialties #datamine-discussion message

So Gardevoir and Gallade I can easily rank now, alongside their respective main skill recipients. Dropped the ball not making them berry mons

Garde should almost always be what you go for with E4E and all

All the new dishes being corn I expected and it's hilarious

That new Fruit Salad with corn does wonders for Pinsir

If none of the new ing mons gets oil, Toxi may get bumped up for Greengrass Salad

Not counting new mons as a factor I'm not seeing anything else significantly affected

These 60-70 dishes are pretty much impossible without 3rd ing unlocks 💀

[astral veldt]

Why do you think it’ll be better than Sylveon?

[torn whale]

Read the message right above that, I was comparing the Kirlia evos

But even though I didn't say it, I do predict Gardevoir to be a step up or at least equal. Depends on ingredient list and skill data

[trim needle]

They’re not berry mons? 💀

[torn whale]

Nope, skill specs. Check here for the datamine summary

[trim needle]

BRUHHHHHHHHHH

[torn whale]

If the ingredient pool "leaks" for Dragonite are accurate, Gengar might've caught a stray 💀

Shares both Herb and Oil, but Dnite would certainly have better output

[astral veldt]

Where are those at?

[torn whale]

RaenonX, screenshots also posted in #datamine-discussion

[torn whale]

The tier list spreadsheet has been updated for 1.1.0, it'll be announced on the server soon 👀

[torn whale]

I don't think I actually posted the link here 😅
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fjlUXFTlFMNRe_6cUav2UFtBhdzxz5afBE3mZD8ys6Q/edit?usp=drivesdk

[idle oracle]

I feel like Lucario should be higher with the insane cost of unlocking the later pot upgrades

313k dream shards to go from 45 to 57

[torn whale]

Personally I only found out about the changed pot increase costs just earlier. Before in the datamines it was only set to be 128k

Besides, the logic is you naturally increase shard gains by investing in mons to boost strength further

Of course, if you aren't at rank 50 yet nor are you hitting 1 mil+ on a weekly basis, or you're trying to future-proof by hoarding currencies, I can see the purpose. Both are niche among niches, hardly a playstyle I'd recommend

[lofty crow]

Dragonite really looks like s tier (cooking view)

[whole valley]

Dang venu didn’t move at all with the intro of the new island?

[torn whale]

No, what changed for it? You're not running Venu for the berries, and the only interesting dish it got requires lv60

[torn whale]

I don't disagree. I did say in the changelog that it's subject to move, in a positive direction to be more precise

[whole valley]

Yeah but it’s got a favored berry island, I figured it’d be atleast within 1 tier of the other Kanto starters

[torn whale]

By that logic Leafeon and Wobbuffet would move out of bottom tier 🤣

I did explain in changelogs that it'd take new, relevant dishes for Venu to move up (lv60+ cap might do it too)

[whole valley]

What makes it 2 tiers worse than the charizard? I guess maybe just looking at the ingredients I’m not getting it

[torn whale]

I explained each mon in the spreadsheet. Like I said there, Zard can hit several good dishes early, without needing lv60. Venu spreads itself too thin, you can only specialize for a specific one or couple dishes

[torn whale]

That being said, Zard does have options too. At first it was clear-cut go Sausage/Ginger/Herb, now you might be more inclined focussing the first two for lofty Keema Curry goals

[static karma]

Would you mind explaining why garde, having lower freq, is placed lower than sylv/wiggly?

Thanks for the hard work as always!

[torn whale]

Because helping speed isn't the sole determinant for how good a skill mon is, there are hidden values at play too

Naturally with the mon not even being available for a day there's a lack of data. So I put Garde and Gallade at the bottom of their respective categories for now

[static karma]

oh lack of data, understand, will wait for an update when everything is properly set in stone then, thank you!

[torn whale]

The takeaway is more this rather than missing data

[torn whale]

There are some small changes to expect over the next few days:

• Dragonite and Delibird swapping tiers
• Re-ordering A tier ing mons
• Gardevoir shown as the best E4E mon (more data needed but seems to have a slightly higher skill proc), nothing on Gallade yet

Bewear is being considered for S. Definitely has the stats for it, just undecided if Corn focus is good enough

Egg is useless in conjunction, Sausage only helps for Keema but you don't get anywhere near enough without sacrificing Corn

So it seems triple Corn is the safe build, but you can for sure run double as long as you got enough helping speed and ing buffs

Then again, you prefer Dnite for that dish since it has Herb. Between that and Sausage the former's more difficult to cover

[brittle summit]

isnt energizing cheer better now with the energy recovery nerfs

at the very least I dont see why umbreon and leafeon should be on a different tier

also just in general I think this patch was a buff for pokemon with self-recovery, whatever the name of the skill is

before the patch going to sleep with over 100% energy was a waste but it is advantageous now, especially for berry pokemon

[brittle summit]

the only reason umbreon could be considered better is that it had a favored island and leafeon did not, but now that both have one what makes umbreon better? leafeon is faster and has an arguably better skill

[torn whale]

What nerfs? Energy recovery was buffed in several ways

I should've explained the foundational issue with Energizing Cheer in the spreadsheet already

Just checked and yep, I sure did

the only reason umbreon could be considered better is that it had a favored island and leafeon did not
Not true, you even contradicted yourself right before:
also just in general I think this patch was a buff for pokemon with self-recovery
Guess what skill Umbreon has? 🤣

[brittle summit]

What I mean by nerf is that going to sleep at say 30% energy no longer guarantees waking up at 100%

And that now having over 100% energy is better

[brittle summit]

Yes I agree

[torn whale]

Uh, what? It never did, was always based on your own sleep parameters

[brittle summit]

Umbreon was buffed this patch

[torn whale]

And that's been the case for several months already

[brittle summit]

Personally I think it was clearly E

[brittle summit]

No because before this patch energy froze when you sleep

So going to sleep with 100% or 150% was the same

Now it isnt

[torn whale]

That was only the case for a fraction of players. People who track with and without Go Plus + differed, now it's the same

So it wasn't a nerf, rather balancing

[brittle summit]

Average player was not using go plus

[torn whale]

That's an anecdotal claim, did you survey a proportion of the playerbase to figure that out? Sounds like a guess to me

[torn whale]

Not that it changes this fact

[trim needle]

Azul can u talk to the devs to buff Gallade pls thx

[brittle summit]

You could do a survey I guess. People I know irl only one of them has both go plus and pokemon sleep

As for anecdotes, there’s been a lot of talk about this change, which suggests it affected at least a sizable part of the playerbase

[torn whale]

Do I need to explain why that isn't a reliable reference?

[brittle summit]

So it is definitely relevant

If it affects say, 30% of players would that not be a relevant buff?

Also, regardless of whether this is relevant or not

Whats the rationale for umbreon > leafeon

You still have not provided it

[torn whale]

I have, it's a matter of you not going through the resource I provided

[brittle summit]

You explain why you think the ability is bad

But not why umbreon is somehow better

[torn whale]

I did, I explained the niche it fulfills that Leafeon cannot

[trim needle]

🤦‍♂️

[torn whale]

This is why I was hesitant to go through with the request of writing up all the individual rankings, they're useless if people don't read them

[brittle summit]

Where

Umbreons description does not explain his niche

Imo his niche is “if you dont have a good houndoom”

[torn whale]

Oh it's in old changelogs, fair enough for not seeing it. They are in this thread however

[torn whale]

No, that literally isn't how you would define a buff

[torn whale]

I did vice versa, explaining why Leafeon is bad

I said Leafeon is bad for the random aspect of its main skill, is it not obvious that Umbreon lacking said issue would be, in turn, an advantage for it?

[brittle summit]

You’re looking at it the wrong way

[torn whale]

Sure you're not just looking at it selectively?

[brittle summit]

The randomness is actually good in this case because umbreon/leafeon are in most cases the worst pokemon in the team

So you’d rather have more energy on any other member

Say you have all 4 bfs mons: houndoom, umbreon, leafeon, meganium

[torn whale]

If the main skill only worked on other teammates sure, you might be going somewhere with this

[brittle summit]

If leafeon procs on itself its ok, if it procs on meganium its great

Meanwhile umbreon is always ok but never great

See where im going

[torn whale]

Your point is clear but it doesn't land. You just described an objectively worse usage case than Energy for Everyone, which can achieve both at once

[brittle summit]

Im not comparing leafeon to E4e

Im comparing leafeon to umbreon

Randomness can be bad if the outcome can be worse

But randomness helps leafeon over umbreon

[trim needle]

This dunk guy 🤦‍♂️

[torn whale]

And they can be, big time. Several of your mons lose helping speed because they wouldn't receive procs, it'll be a daily occurrence

[brittle summit]

Conversely, if this was an actual berry mon then this variance would be bad

[brittle summit]

Bro if you have an umbreon none of your mons get procs

Forget e4e exists for a second this is not an e4e discussion

[brittle summit]

Do you plan on using your head a bit or are you just going to parrot

As for a case where randomness would be bad, if it was Dodrio (a berry mon) the one with energizing cheer that would be worse than the guaranteed self-proc

But in umbreon/leafeon case energizing cheer is better because you want it to proc on others in most cases

[torn whale]

No, I will not. You will never have a reason to run Leafeon over Wigglytuff, Sylveon or Gardevoir. Comparing Leafeon to Umbreon is brain-rottingly dumb: one has a niche and the other's got zero usage case. That is not competition

[brittle summit]

Why do you compare leafeon to those

It does not make any sense

[torn whale]

BECAUSE I MAKE AND UPDATE A TIER LIST FEATURING EVERY HELPER

[brittle summit]

Yes and there should be an actual reasoning for them

Umbreon is not better than leafeon period

Not saying you should promote leafeon, if anything the opposite

[torn whale]

Christ you're just arguing for the sake of arguing huh? I gave you reasons, plenty in fact, if you can't accept them that's your loss

[brittle summit]

You still have not mentioned what umbreon niche is

Ingredients?

That same argument applies to Leafeon in lapis

[torn whale]

I don't see you just quitting this pointless debate even if I do. If that is truly what you're after, you could've looked at the changelogs in this thread rather than keep arguing

[brittle summit]

I did

somehow now it is my fault that the changelogs arent on the spreadsheet

thats where I looked first lol

[torn whale]

Looks like a skill issue to me. The changelog's definitely out there, you can keep trying to find it if you like

[brittle summit]

the only skill issue here is your inability to understand the difference between good and bad RNG

as well as your inability to admit you are wrong on multiple counts

for one, in not admitting the changelog is indeed not here

it really isnt that hard to format the spreadsheet so all changelogs are there btw

[torn whale]

Dude I do this shit for free I have nothing to prove to some rando

[torn cargo]

Changelogs is in The spreadsheet link

[torn whale]

If you can find me all the dates game versions were released and which of my updates correlates to each, then I'll gladly add them

[brittle summit]

only the last 3

[torn cargo]

If you disagree with the tierlist then dont use it

[brittle summit]

even if the changelog was accessible, I think its pretty clear this description could stand to be better?

Its build had been considered wasted potential, specializing in skills despite having one that many berry and ingredient helpers get access to. Not to mention it would've triggered often enough without a boosted proc rate.

you could explain that umbreon is usable if you get one with bfs and have no other options for snowdrop and/or need milk

again, those same things apply to leafeon, but I digress

[torn whale]

What do you think the recommended builds are for then? 🤦‍♂️

[brittle summit]

well the thing is you are rating leafeon on the wrong build

but yea

[torn whale]

They do not. I already explained why, you are in a state of denial if you still think otherwise

[torn whale]

Are you deliberately trolling? What do you think the word "recommendation" means?

That it's something you have to follow? 😬

[brittle summit]

what I am saying is that in your mind leafeon works like a bad wigglytuff, and you are wrong

it would be like comparing feraligatr and golduck and concluding feraligatr is bad because the skill is worse

well it does not work like that

its clear both umbreon and leafeon have very small niches

basically, the niche is you got a bfs speed with speed and no triggers

and they perform roughly the same in their respective islands

unique ingredient set, and since their abilities are more of an afterthought they dont need triggers like espeon/glaceon who are their competition

thats the niche

it is also quite clear in which cases each is better than the other

leafeon is better if you have 4 other solid mons

umbreon is better if he's your best mon for snowdrop

[torn whale]

You gotta fix your attitude fr. This is a resource I curate using actual data-based research, by myself. I do not have to entertain some rando who is too stubborn to accept when they're wrong; I'm open to constructive feedback, not childish rebuttals and whining

[brittle summit]

clear as day

I am being as constructive as possible despite your rudeness about me not finding a changelog that isnt there

[torn whale]

You are entitled to your opinion, not to enforce it onto others and bend their wills unto yours

I can rate Leafeon as useless as you can go to arms defending the lost cause

[brittle summit]

you still have not rebuked the arguments either for nor against umbreon

[torn whale]

Christ you still won't shut up about that will you? Here, changelog clearly exists and it is a skill issue with you not using adequate search terms

You have your changelog, if you find a way to keep arguing even with that you're clearly a lost cause

[brittle summit]

that changelog has umbreon in C not in D as it currently stands

where's the changelog moving it to D

[torn whale]

🤦‍♂️

[brittle summit]

also please think about this and the following line for a second

maybe you'll get there

[torn whale]

Explained literally in the spreadsheet

[brittle summit]

if you have both a bfs hound and a bfs umbreon you would not use umbreon

if you have both a bfs meganium and bfs leafeon there is a world where you would use both at once

[torn whale]

Right, I'm saying it once and for all:

LEAFEON IS ASS, IT HAS NO PLACE IN THE GAME AND WHOLLY OUTCLASSED BY E4E USERS

[brittle summit]

that is the point im trying to make

[brittle summit]

it is not competing with e4e users

its competing with other eevelutions

when you get a bfs eevee you need to make a choice

there arent many situations where you would choose umbreon or leafeon because they both suck

but instead of using bad arguments you could actually listen to someone who's giving you a good rundown on the situations in which either could have a niche

[torn whale]

Right, I'm done with this. I'm gonna respectfully ask you to please stop spamming my thread with your pointless endeavour. I made it clear numerous times I'm not gonna implement your desired changes, if you keep dragging this on I'll request mods to intervene

[brittle summit]

it would be a much better argument to say that leafeon has less of a niche than umbreon because his competition is stronger

berry mons for lapis and espeon are better than the berry mons for snowdrop and glaceon respectively

[torn whale]

I'm gonna assume you typed that out before you read my message. The next time you post on this matter I will ping mods

[brittle summit]

1. This is on the help and guides section and it is supposed to help users. Constructive discussion and solid arguments are positive so that beginners can make appropiate choices.

2. I am being quite civil

[torn whale]

<@&1129036473396633724> sorry, I've been forced into doing this

[brittle summit]

that is all

[torn whale]

#1133866288771518566 message issue started from here if you wanna backlog

[brittle summit]

also, I just noticed there's a PGP+ role in this server, and there's 100 users with it out of around 1500 users total in the server

fair to assume the number is slightly higher as some people might have not noticed the role exist though

[torn whale]

As for a brief outline: the user here incessantly argued about Leafeon and Umbreon's placements on the tier. They would pick at the smallest details to argue as much as they physically could (like there), wouldn't accept my points for what they were and kept forcing on their ideas

It is not constructive discussion at all, it's unpleasant behaviour and simply disrespectful

[brittle summit]

Considering this tierlist is published on one of the ''official'' channels of the server, it should be held to a high standard. My arguments have been polite and constructive, despite having to endure ad-hominem attacks from you.

[torn whale]

I don't see why you'd dare play the victims with snide remarks like these, littered throughout the thread. I respectfully asked you to cease and you wouldn't, even now you keep dragging this issue on

[obtuse loom]

Forced into doing what

[brittle summit]

why do you hide the message I was quoting

[obtuse loom]

Overnight sleeping and half rests were giga nerfed

[torn whale]

That ping, the user wouldn't stop arguing for an hour and I felt intervention was necessary

[obtuse loom]

Clearly they were talking about the night drain

[brittle summit]

yes

[obtuse loom]

I'm several messages in right now and I've seen someone present an interesting topic and you completely misunderstand his point multiple times

[brittle summit]

fwiw I actually wanted to argue that some merit should be given to pokemon with self-energy recharge in this patch, as they have all been buffed

[torn whale]

Not when the context is energy recovery skills, which were buffed on several counts

[obtuse loom]

Including attacking him for the position, insulting him for a contradiction he didn't make

[brittle summit]

I actually dropped that part of the argument because I dont know how PGP works and thought you meant the night drain already was happening there

I have no idea how PGP works

[obtuse loom]

Dunk: What I mean by nerf is that going to sleep at say 30% energy no longer guarantees waking up at 100%
Dunk: And that now having over 100% energy is better

Because energy drain overnight is more prevalent

And the fact that going to bed with more energy actually has a benefit

Mons that give energy to allies or themselves are much stronger now

[torn whale]

Neither of those were mentioned prior to me putting forward the question

[obtuse loom]

Both of those were mentioned

[torn whale]

Besides, neither of those directly impact main skill's usage

[obtuse loom]

This was exactly the gloss I had

[brittle summit]

it was literally on my first 4 messages though?

[obtuse loom]

Azul please stop being dense

You pinged mods to get someone disagreeing with you to stop

[brittle summit]

perhaps I could have explained my point better but I was arguing that both leafeon, umbreon, AND any other pokemon with their skills got buffed this patch (tyranitar, dodrio, dragonite, etc)

[obtuse loom]

You're trying to use the modship to silence a user who you disagree with, which was precisely the sort of issue Mathcord had with you before

Take the criticism and try to have a productive conversation for once, please

[brittle summit]

also, I am curious, what exactly is the PGP+ difference with energy?

[torn whale]

There isn't one, which is what I said well in advance

[brittle summit]

I dont understand

if that is the case, wouldnt PGP+ have been a negative before this patch? since energy didnt freeze

[torn whale]

No, it worked exactly how it does now. It's the whole reason why I said this change isn't suitable to be described as a nerf

@obtuse loom this point is relevant to what you were criticizing

[obtuse loom]

Yes

To explain better than Azul is

Pre-patch, if you went to bed normally with the app, you'd produce all night at a higher energy

and your energy was paused

PGP+ didn't freeze your energy so it drained to 0 normally

However with this change, now normal sleep works like PGP+ always has

[brittle summit]

Ok thats what I wanted to make sure, just find it surprising anyone was using PGP+ in that case, though I guess there were other benefits

[obtuse loom]

it's a nerf to the inarguably stronger state non-PGP+ was in

[obtuse loom]

PGP+ had the bonus Pikachu thing, but that was it really

[brittle summit]

Regardless, even being quite conservative it wouldn't be crazy to state that at least 50% of the userbase does not use PGP+

[obtuse loom]

It's also way less reliable

[brittle summit]

and it is anecdotal but I have seen a lot of discussion around night drain since last patch, and I never saw anyone discuss the topic before this month

[obtuse loom]

Oh definitely

[brittle summit]

so it should be mentioned somewhere at least

[obtuse loom]

It's reasonable to, yes

Now

Let's end the current whole bullshit rn and just rest the conversation thusly

Yes, because normal sleeping took a massive nerf, energy mons are at a premium

As the vast majority of people don't do 8.5h sleeps a day

As such, energy (especially to above 80%) is particularly potent

E4E is an incredible skill and is still the premiere energy skill

E4E gives more energy to the team overall

But Energizing Cheer gives more energy to a single unit

E4E gives 5/7/9/11/15/18 to each mon, which is 25/35/45/55/75/90 to the team overall, versus ECS, which is 14/17/22/28/38/50

roughly 50-60% of the distribution

There is a notable point though

ECS you can very easily game and guarantee it hits the "right" unit every single time

But that still doesn't actually make it better

@torn whale please don't ping mods in the future when someone is trying to have a discussion with you about your rankings

[trim needle]

[obtuse loom]

I'd also like to change the name of this topic to Azul's Pokemon Tier List, as it seems to me this is clearly a "I will do what I think and don't really accept input" sort of thing

And I'd like the channel to reflect this is basically just your opinion

Without a strong objective or community measure

Would you prefer Azul, or the full Azulyter name?

[torn whale]

That's fine, this situation won't be happening again. If you're allowed to bring other server's drama here and there not be repercussions, I won't be continuing to make tier list updates here. I can't express my opinion freely with this authority abuse

I'll be closing this thread shortly

[obtuse loom]

No you absolutely could

We had no issue with you expressing your opinion

[brittle summit]

Yeah I 100% agree E4E is better, it was not what I was trying to push at any point. I think ECS is probably seen as worse than it is because going over 100% was 'bad' for many players before this patch, as well as because ECS pokemon are all very slow and unusable. But Leafeon has reasonable speed and a favored island now so it deserves some slight reevaluation

[obtuse loom]

I had issue with you outright rejecting someone else's opinion then pinging mods to shut them up

You're free to make whatever tier list you like

[brittle summit]

Fwiw I agree with a lot of the points made on the tier list

[obtuse loom]

As do I - and I don't even believe ECS should be rated much higher really

[torn whale]

That very much wasn't the situation. And if I'm so free to, why did you bring Mathcord issues into this? And mute me without reason? Those actions are inappropriate no matter how you cut it

[obtuse loom]

And mute me without reason?
No, there was a reason - you were being actively belligerent

[obtuse loom]

if I'm so free to, why did you bring Mathcord issues into this?
Expressed patterns of behavior

You're allowed to publish here all you like

You are not the singular authority on tier lists

[torn whale]

And that's appropriate for you to dictate, given how it was a situation you were directly involved in and ultimately started from your messages? As a mod for this server, it simply isn't appropriate for you to bring bias into issues

That is not being impartial anymore

[obtuse loom]

Bias is the moulding of the experiences we've encountered to base our judgments and opinions on

[obtuse loom]

Impartiality doesn't mean a complete disregard for your history

Once again, this is a fine place for you to publish your tier list

But you got some pushback from a member of the GP about a specific element

And you pinged the mods to shut him up

That is you trying to abuse your position to beat someone down

[torn whale]

No, I attempted to defuse the situation and it didn't succeed. Is it wrong to want to put a stop to an argument? There wasn't any way that was happening without mod intervention, you even had to say "Let's end the current whole bullshit rn and just rest the conversation thusly"

Which, wouldn't you know, is what I was requesting for with the mod ping

[obtuse loom]

Caling someone's defense of their perspective "pointless", and a direct statement that you're going to entirely disregard their stance, AND a direct call that you're going to call the cavalry

That's not defusing

[obtuse loom]

Full caps bold makes it seem like you're the one way more aggressive in this interaction

Bro was just explaining his thoughts

[torn whale]

What was pointless was them trying to have me change my tiering, after I made it clear I didn't agree with their reason and provided plenty of explanations

[obtuse loom]

This is on the help and guides section and it is supposed to help users. Constructive discussion and solid arguments are positive so that beginners can make appropiate choices.
Read this @torn whale

[torn whale]

It very much wasn't that, it was refusing to acknowledge comparisons I was making like E4E vs. Leafeon's skill

They outright said "no, you can't compare these mons". That is belittling my rights as the creator of the tier list: if I can't even say which mons I wanna compare how can I have freedom to make the list as I desire going forward?

It really feels like you overlooked the full situation because of what happened in Mathcord. It's fine for that to be taken into account sure, but why does it have to be you, who was directly involved and holds responsibility for those events? Panders just as easily could've made judgments without personal grudges coming into effect

[brittle summit]

I explained why that comparison isn't fair. Pretty much any pokemon that gets compared to the S tiers is going to lose the comparison. An E tier pokemon should be compared to D and C tier pokemon at best, or with a pokemon that is direct competition (which I mentioned with espeon/umbreon/glaceon)

[torn whale]

But hey, it could very well have been my mistake in thinking "don't bring external drama into servers" would be a universal rule. If that's fine to do here, my mistake for not knowing

[torn whale]

But that should be my right to decide. Why can't I compare my own decided placements to one another?

I'm the one who made tier differences as wide/close as what's shown after all. Naturally I'm going to have opinions to express

[obtuse loom]

Let's play "Let's actually read message history"

1. You misunderstood his original point
2. He clarified, in which case you misunderstood a second time
3. You said only a fraction of players don't use PGP+, which, while true, is very deceptive, as the vast majority of players do not
4. A suggestion that it wasn't a nerf, since another set of players were already dealing with this change - which is just objectively wrong. Another group playing suboptimally does not make this not a nerf.
5. A rejection of proportion with demands for data about the population of the game playing without PGP+, which you should know is the vast vast majority of players.
6. An argumentative stand when they didn't read "your writeups", only to realize later oops they were hidden far in the changelogs people couldn't see
7. You saying a buff that improves an ability to 30% of players is not a buff (yes it is)
8. A non sequitur comparison to E4E, whcih was not part of the conversation at hand (Leafeon vs Umbreon)
9. A further insult/nonsequitur about E4E after he specifically told you that comparison is weakand not the argument he's making
10. "Christ you're just arguing for the sake of arguing huh?"
11. "I don't see you just quitting this pointless debate even if I do [provide an explanation to the point he's been making this whole time."
12. "Looks like a skill issue to me."
13. Calling him "some rando"
14. "I already explained why, you are in a state of denial if you still think otherwise"
15. "Are you deliberately trolling?"
16. "You gotta fix your attitude fr."
17. "Christ you still won't shut up about that will you?"
18. Full caps rage without actually explaining why
19. Call to mods to silence him

Also, irony

You provided literally 0 explanation btw

I read through the whole thing

And his original point is actually still unchanged

Meanwhile you attacked his point in like 5 nonsequitur ways

To which he's said multiple times "that's not what I'm saying"

[torn whale]

I literally sent screenshots of the changelog, that explained why Umbreon was placed in a tier above Leafeon

So I factually did provide explanations

[obtuse loom]

I see you took a screenshot of the changelog link

Sorry, singular

[brittle summit]

I understand that tiers are somewhat subjective but I would say that in most mental frameworks an S tier pokemon is 'must have and good in any situation' and E is 'unusable and has 0 niche'

[obtuse loom]

You sent one screenshot

[brittle summit]

Therefore an E pokemon should be compared to D, which is 'very small niche'

[obtuse loom]

And it was after the vast majority of you being an ass to him

[torn whale]

Can you provide the same on the other user please? I do hope you didn't just tunnel-vision into critiquing me just because of the disagreement we had

Because they definitely were far from perfect in this interaction

[obtuse loom]

Hey btw Azul, I felt like it may be pertinent to send you a screenshot of the rules, to remind you

Hope this helps

[obtuse loom]

I tunnel-visioned onto you because when i read through the argument, you were the one being belligerent the whole time lol

But sure lemme do the same

[torn whale]

If we're talking about that one point, sure. I provided information as required for their other ones, like explaining why Umbreon got shifted down a tier compared to older versions

[obtuse loom]

1. "Whats the rationale for umbreon > leafeon; You still have not provided it"
2. "You’re looking at it the wrong way"
3. "Forget e4e exists for a second this is not an e4e discussion"
4. "there should be an actual reasoning for them"
5. "somehow now it is my fault that the changelogs arent on the spreadsheet"
6. "the only skill issue here is your inability to understand the difference between good and bad RNG"
7. "as well as your inability to admit you are wrong on multiple counts"
8. "I am being as constructive as possible despite your rudeness about me not finding a changelog that isnt there"
9. " please think about this and the following line for a second, maybe you'll get there"
10. "but instead of using bad arguments you could actually listen to someone who's giving you a good rundown on the situations in which either could have a niche"

These are all the remotely provocative things they've said before the ping

1 isn't rude, it's just criticism

2. is a clarification that the nonsequitur you gave, was one

3. Further clarification your nonsequitur was not what he was asking

4. "actual reasoning" is a little provocative, half a point

5 and 6 are a refutation of you telling him he didn't do his research, skill issue, etc

Though 6 is also a *little8 provocative, half a point

7. Sure I'll give a full point here

8. A flat-out explanation that he's trying to be constructive and you're being dismissive and rude, which you were