#Azul's Helper Pokémon Tier List

1 messages · Page 5 of 1

heavy orbit
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gengar should get 16.68 ish ingredients per day at level 30

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unless the new unlocked ingredient changes procs

minor echo
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I get 0 a day at 6 😭

heavy orbit
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since you unlock a 2nd ingredient idk how excactly it would work

minor echo
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I think someone said you get split between the two options

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Feels like that should just be your new proc

heavy orbit
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i guess we can only see when we get there.. but i do think we have enough spare for the magnezone proc since it's only 7?

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the real question like i said is if you have the right ingredients and if they help you get to a better recipe

worn nacelle
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Magnezone proc would be higher because it's evolved twice

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And max pot size is 81 but idk what level you have to be at to unlock it

heavy orbit
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like for example... even if everything is right.. but magnezon just doesn't proc at your meal time.. than already it's useless

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what i mean is.. you cooked a good meal at breakfast.. magnezone procs after you cook... than you could make possibly a better meal for lunch.. but you don't have the right ingredients for the better recipee cuz u simply don't have them or used parts for breakfast

torn whale
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Rundown of the changes in draft:

  • Magnezone from S to A
  • Slaking and Raticate swapped tiers
  • Absol from C to A
  • Houndoom from C to B
  • Dream Shard mons down one tier each
  • Sableye predicted for D
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There's a bunch of tweaks within tiers too

worn nacelle
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I approve of all of those changes

heavy orbit
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what i'm most interested in is energy mons

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thats what is the most mystery for me

minor echo
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Since you guys were calcing how many ingredients Gastly get per day does that mean we figured out drop rates of berries versus ingredients

heavy orbit
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i think most of us have enough knowledge now to judge berries and ingredients

minor echo
worn nacelle
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Nope considering one estimate was less than half of the other estimate haha

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We clearly still don't know 😅

potent knoll
worn nacelle
torn whale
worn nacelle
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Because they have the potential to outpace magnet on ingredient pokemon

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But who knows how it actually works rn

minor echo
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Probably broken rn like all the natures have been lol

heavy orbit
potent knoll
worn nacelle
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People have found that if you don't go back to the snorlax screen you keep the energy

heavy orbit
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but from what it "feels" like energy magnet is imo one of the better skills for sure

worn nacelle
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Oh you said that, disregard me haha

heavy orbit
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i mean ingredient magnet

torn whale
# minor echo I think I missed why but why is Houndoom going up a tier

You didn't miss anything I haven't posted the explanations yet. Houndoom was initially low bc of main skill and average helping speed. But dark berry is high value, useful and Houndour's by far the most accessible one. This puts it on equal footing with other B tier specialists

worn nacelle
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I'd say it's decently easy to make it work, you only have to check the app every 3h or so so you could burn that off with the app in the background. It just depends if they decide overflow is a bug or the overflow disappearing is the bug

potent knoll
worn nacelle
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I would also guess it's unintentional

torn whale
heavy orbit
worn nacelle
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Also idk if we have conclusive information on whether or not energy when you go to sleep does anything or not

worn nacelle
potent knoll
heavy orbit
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mhm when your sleeping with go++ it doesn't snap to 100 i'm almost sure

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since you can log in when you "sleep" u see the energy decaying normally

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u can't log in if your tracking with the app so you can't see.. but with the ++ you see the energy is not 100

shut perch
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At work, so discord phone tag😅 but why would Zone want to gather zero ingredients? And I'd imagine the 81 cap would be after level 60 yeah? So the ing rate would be higher than 58. Like, species depending likely >80, maybe 90 for Ing Pokemon.

frail pike
potent knoll
obtuse loom
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idk

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++ seem inconsistent

heavy orbit
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also the cap of 81 might be irrelevant.. since the highest recipee currently is 55?

torn whale
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So I'd rather leave it final evos for consistency

worn nacelle
heavy orbit
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is vigo really worst? both are berry mons and vigo has a better skill.. they are both quiet fast

potent knoll
heavy orbit
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not gengar tier but both are not slow for sure

worn nacelle
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That would be one ingredient help proc per hour the whole day so like 4 helps per hour the whole day?

heavy orbit
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i mean on seribee they are the excact same speed

worn nacelle
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Inventory

heavy orbit
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so vigoroth imo is the same pokemon as radicate with urguably better ingredients and better skill

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although harder to get

frail pike
# torn whale So I'd rather leave it final evos for consistency

I understand the desire for consistency but in this case idk if that's the most important thing to consider. I would never evolve a Vigoroth the way things stand right now, it's effectively ruining it. So even if you think Raticate rates above Vigoroth (which sounds contested and I don't know about the rat to weigh in without checking), it should still be Vigoroth on the chart and just put him below Raticate

torn whale
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Same helping speed but way less carry capacity, 9 for an evolved mon is a joke. Moot point for the specialty but Rat has a far better ing. pool too

frail pike
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There's no point in evaluating an evolution no one should use

torn whale
frail pike
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it will very likely misguide some people who aren't heavy chat readers to evolve their vigoroths

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thinking it's the natural next step like everything else on the chart

heavy orbit
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i guess the carry limit is lower yes.. how much impact does that really make though

shut perch
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70+ is just napkin math of 24hrs/gengars base freq x (2+4+5)/3 x (0.25 or 0.33) x 1.5

heavy orbit
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i can't judge it... but imo ingredient magnet s is probably better than charge energy s.. but i could be wrong... after that you would need to compare tomatoe honey apple vs apple soybeans sausage

worn nacelle
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Unless you've got a bunch of inventory skills you might not want to consider all 24h

heavy orbit
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i think if you log in enough (don't miss a meal) carry limit only affects the time you sleep

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if the limit is what it says than 9vs16.. you would loose 7 ingredients when you wake up?

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is that how you would read the stat

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?

torn whale
shut perch
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It's just scratch maths. But at my current level, I have 1-2 Ing mons and 2 magnets at a time. No one has a +Ing nature. I often have enough to hit the pot limit per meal on non-sundays. I'd wager a better squad could find value in Cooking Power, but it is still relative to your team.

heavy orbit
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the magnet helps more than you think though

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i used 1 less magnet this week and i can feel the diff

torn whale
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Eevee is so good for magnet yeah

frail pike
worn nacelle
heavy orbit
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and i also upgraded my pot 2 more times.. it is rough to keep up

frail pike
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especially if they didn't see the last version so don't think a changelist is relevant to them

heavy orbit
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yeah u should make sure to let people know to not evolve the vigoroth

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and never catch a slakoth unless shiny xD

frail pike
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Haha, I hadn't even thought about that. What a tragic waste of biscuit resources that would be

heavy orbit
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but regardless of placement.. i think rat and vigo should be very close.. unless u wanna take into account rat is way easier to get which is fair

potent knoll
blissful mortar
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Rat also makes meaningful meals on snowdrop NOW when we get to it on every meal week

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Snowdrop meals painful AF

frail pike
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I don't think ease of get has been factored on the chart so far

frail pike
shut perch
potent knoll
heavy orbit
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max is relative to your level

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if you have a 27 pot and have a good camp it's 41

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so your max might be different than others

frail pike
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How many times can you upgrade the pot, and do we know how expensive each upgrade is?

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I'm not seeing that on Serebii

heavy orbit
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80 something is max on serebii

frail pike
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I've just assumed it was a ridiculous grind like everything else

heavy orbit
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good camp and sunday can stack on top of that

frail pike
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Nvm, just found it. Good lord.

heavy orbit
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so the real max is somewhere at 160ish per meal

frail pike
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130k dream shards for the final pot upgrade, no way people are maxing that rn

heavy orbit
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the other question is if it is even worth to make that big of a meal

shut perch
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For the Vig v Rat debate on the mountain, they're pretty neck and neck. Rats slightly better just based on availability, candy, etc. but it should be w/e unless I'm missing something.

minor echo
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I like the design of Vig better so I'm going with him

torn whale
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I could just put both on the tier list tbh, that's prolly what I'll do

minor echo
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Love when ing magnet goes off lol

rancid umbra
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I did a case study calculation for the worst possible case for ingrediant drops on a level 60 Charizard (equal 1/3 chance for each tier) and even comparing a char with berry+ with favorite berry, the average ingrediant drop proc provided quite a bit more strength then a berry proc.

potent knoll
pearl pond
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did you calc with recipes in mind or purely assessing the "value" of each ingredient?

rancid umbra
pearl pond
rancid umbra
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I considered that

pearl pond
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cool. how did you determine a value for each ingredient?

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oh wow i just had a brain fart

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i forgot each ingredient has a value and you can see that value by adding it to recipes as extra ingredients

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sorry carry on

rancid umbra
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#1133866288771518566 message

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That link should have everything.

pearl pond
rancid umbra
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I was comparing the 3 different proc cases, berry vs ING vs Skill

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Also I apologize for the sarcasm in the linked post, I was a little triggered haha

pearl pond
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haha its all good

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this is super interesting

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so your calc for lvl 60 favored berry is

116x4 = 464

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but with berry+ wouldn't it be 116*6?

rancid umbra
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No char has a single berry

pearl pond
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oh you were doing a comparison for berry + on an ingredient mon

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char being the test case

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got it

rancid umbra
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I also did not account for a 1/x chance to double ING power with a crit cook.

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Even without crit cook ING proc was higher

pearl pond
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also each recipe provides bonus power beyond the base recipe value

rancid umbra
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I wanted to prove my point for a conservative case

pearl pond
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how does ing compare to berry specialist with favored berry and berry+ subskill?

rancid umbra
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Not sure, the point of my case study was to provide evidence for the optimal ING specialist mon.

pearl pond
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got it

rancid umbra
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There was an argument that berry+ was better than optimizing for ING drops and skill proc.

pearl pond
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oh what?

potent knoll
rancid umbra
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@potent knoll absolutely, but there are subskills and nature's that greatly improve ING drop.

pearl pond
rancid umbra
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@potent knoll do you know the actual proc ratio between berry/skill/ING

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And do specialist have a higher proc rate for their specialty?

potent knoll
rancid umbra
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I ask this yesterday and no one seemed to know.

potent knoll
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Smarter people than me are doing stuff with whistles that should make things more clear

rancid umbra
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We know the modifiers to the proc chance but not the actual base rate.

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It would be interesting to get an ING mon with no modifiers and record the frequency of each proc over a week's time.

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Then compare that with a non-ING mon

potent knoll
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I'm firmly on Team Ingredients because it seems like the most consistent option long-term, but I gotta admit my position is mostly informed by feelycraft right now totolmao

rancid umbra
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My conclusion for an optimal team would be to have the fewest ING mon possible that would fill/cover the max pot size with a little margin every day.

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ING magnet helps a ton with this especially for berry spec with ING magnet like Walrein.

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You may be able to get by with having a single ING mon with high tier ingredients.

pearl pond
neat elk
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hybrid team is the way to go

potent knoll
potent knoll
pearl pond
sweet oriole
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Has anyone figured out what the Frequency stat is measuring?

neat elk
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butterfree, spheal and eevee then any 2 other ingredients specialists depending on the dish

pearl pond
potent knoll
rancid umbra
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I swear I have observed mon providing help multiple times in just a few minutes.

sweet oriole
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Yeah the values are typically in the hour range but that feels too long compared to how often I seem to get berries and such

worn nacelle
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I really don't think you'll be able to get away with 1 ingredient mon and hit 81 ingredients per meal, it's going to take at least 4 I think

pearl pond
neat elk
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for me it's the time activation rate of main skills that interacts with your energy levels. that's why it activates a lot after waking up since energy is at full or almost full

pearl pond
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but for 23-35 ingredient dishes you totally can

hazy turtle
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ye u can totally hit min amount for a high tier dish

rancid umbra
hazy turtle
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gold berry subskill is just really good

rancid umbra
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Early game it is best in slot for all classes

pearl pond
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dont say that around @rancid umbra

rancid umbra
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But mid to late game ING mon have better subskill options

potent knoll
# rancid umbra It should be how often you pokemon provides help. I do wonder though if it is an...

https://www.reddit.com/r/PokemonSleep/comments/15h5nt2/experiment_speed_of_helpproduction_are_based_on/
This post shares some limited data that makes it seem like Frequency shows how long it should take for a pokemon to deliver a help at 0 energy, and it increases linearly up to 100% (200% help rate)
But I've been told there's video evidence disproving this

reddit
r/PokemonSleep - [Experiment] Speed of Help/Production are based on...

58 votes and 13 comments so far on Reddit

tawny nova
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That seems wack

potent knoll
rancid umbra
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@potent knoll That seems about right

potent knoll
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If we could get more data points we could probably get a better idea

worn nacelle
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Yep that's my data haha

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Just need someone with an extra account to run a multi day test of pokemon with 0 energy

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We'd learn so much from that

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Ingredient ratio, base speed of help

rancid umbra
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Actually the 0 energy case should be easy to prove/disprove.

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As long as you do not miscount any help procs

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number of help/frequency = total help time

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If Calc help time = actaul help time with small variance then the equation is proven.

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If there is variance then help frequency could be a random normal probability distribution with the actual frequency being the expect value.

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Or some other combination of factors

pearl pond
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yeah this wouldn't be hard to test if he had more data

pearl pond
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mainly my gut

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im also realizing we're a bit off topic for this thread

rancid umbra
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Haha @torn whale is probably accustomed to this chat being off topic. Judging the effectiveness of pokemon usually leads down a rabbit hole.

hard sinew
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is there a rough updated tier for 08/10/2023

potent knoll
potent knoll
whole valley
# rancid umbra I wanted to prove my point for a conservative case

The problem was this didn’t prove any point because I don’t think anyone was saying that a berry proc gives more by itself. The point is that depending on how often berry procs vs ingredient over a set time period that the 100% boost in berry effectiveness could overtake the x% boost in ingredient effectiveness from whatever you think the 6th most effective skill on an ingredient mon is. And until the data is out for the percent procs then idk if anyone can give a definite answer

rancid umbra
whole valley
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What do you think the top 6 sub skills are for an ing mon?

rancid umbra
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If you read back through the argument case study you would see I provided this.

whole valley
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My point is take the 6th worst one there. I really don’t know how you would know that the 100% boost is worst without hard numbers on proc rate

blissful mortar
whole valley
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Let’s say you have helping bonus, ing finder, skill lvl up, and skill trigger. You really think berry + can’t fit into one of the two last slots?

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Oh last one slot, I’ve always thought it was 6 subskills for some reason lol

rancid umbra
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I think the best ING mon is one that has ING magnet and has ING+ Nature with the following sunskills in order:
ING M, HS M
SKL Trig M, SKL Lev L
Last slot is up for grabs, probably berry+

whole valley
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Yeah so then we’re on the same page 🤔

worn nacelle
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I wonder if ing S or soh s might be better than skill level in a true late game scenario, since skill level can be solved by seeds

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Also helping bonus

hazy turtle
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ing s most likely

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given that frequency definitely scales with level

rancid umbra
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Yes technically true, I figured the resource investment cost was too high for 2 main skill seeds

hazy turtle
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unless ing% also scales with level

rancid umbra
tawny nova
frail pike
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Yeah, with the amount of ingredients you'll be getting late game you'll want bag space in one of those slots. If you get all of the unlocked ingredients instead of rolling for them, even some double evolutions are going to struggle to hold all these limes

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some like Absol are gonna want it regardless

rancid umbra
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It would be a pain but you can just check you team more frequently.

tawny nova
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Mostly the overnight gains you want with extra inv

rancid umbra
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Everything about berries is easy

tawny nova
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Yup

rancid umbra
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ING probably needs a rework

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They can still be much more effective than berries but it is 100x the effort and complexity.

torn whale
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Helper Pokémon Tierlist Update & Changelog

At long last, here is v12 of my tier list! It's been a long time coming and many changes were made while in draft:

  • Normal type berry specialist changes: Vigoroth was added to the list, both it and Raticate took over Slaking's place which is now in D. Slaking is the only evolution in the game to lose stats by having a slower helping speed, don't use it.

  • Sableye added to D: I still don't have complete data on it, however looking at main skill trends it's likely to be another skills specialist. Sableye looks to be outclassed by similar helpers.

  • Dream Shard Magnet skill mons dropped a tier each: I still think there's excellent value in building at least one of these, but the payoff is quite far into the game.

  • Absol from C to A: Absol has a very unique property in unprecedented ingredient drops. If you're lucky enough to catch one with Fancy Apples, it'll drop 8 of them at level 30 and 12 at level 60. Nothing in the game comes close to these figures, having both would easily put it on-par with S tiers.

  • Magnezone from S to A: Similar issue as above, lacking in early game utility but strong performance after future unlocks. Still a great mon thanks to berry exclusivity.

  • Houndoom from C to B: I was quite harsh on its poor main skill and lackluster stats. Being the most accessible dark type, providing a useful, high value berry, is a strong selling point.

  • Dugtrio from C to B: At first I viewed it as outclassed by other specialists, but Dugtrio's actually the only one besides Ditto to get Large Leek at level 30. This alongside wonderful stats for a stage 1 evolution carve a very strong niche.

I'd like to give credit to @lofty crow for putting together a spreadsheet of ingredient drop data (found here: #1136923165138882581 message), which assisted in many of these changes.

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heavy orbit
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ey yo i agree 100% with absol but whats that about apples?? are we team apple now?.. but jokes aside whats so good about apples.. first you wanna sell me on honey and now apple?

torn whale
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It's the count that makes it crazy

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Its lv30 is on par with other ingredient helpers' lv60

neat elk
neat elk
heavy orbit
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so i should be happy about my 3 apple raichu at level 60?

neat elk
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no just apples not raichu specifically

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I like to have ingredients magnet S mons drop extra ingredients for me

hazy turtle
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raichu is still good u just dont care about apples tho

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like ideal raichu is prob +help -ing anyway

neat elk
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especially if berry specialists like butterfree

torn whale
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Adamant 100% on berry specialists

frail pike
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Slaking still in D instead of replacing with and usefully ranking Vigoroth nallears

torn whale
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Look again lol

frail pike
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Whoops, I'm a big ol' dingus

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Nice!

heavy orbit
frail pike
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And thank you for all the work you put into this either way, it's hugely helpful

hazy turtle
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absol is ingred specialist

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and he gives a lot of apples

frail pike
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(I just cannot stop the snark sometimes, it's terminal)

heavy orbit
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ohhh i forgot that absol is ingredient specialist.. right makes sense than

hazy turtle
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tho imo absol high tier cus of 2x cacao

heavy orbit
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but wouldn't be double or tripple cacao be better than?

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or does the number of "drops" get adjusted since cacao is worth more?

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just trying to understand why apple is best

neat elk
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it's not. imo it's.tomato higher base power and 2 mons that are ingredients specialists can drop it

heavy orbit
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nono i meant apple on absol specifically.. since thats mentioned in the notes to be S tier worthy

neat elk
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plus the second and third items of those mons could be leeks or potatoes which are on the very best recipes on all 3 dish types

torn whale
hazy turtle
heavy orbit
torn whale
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Nope

heavy orbit
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ok i see than

hazy turtle
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r u sure

heavy orbit
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i thought the numbers are the same

hazy turtle
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it is definitely adjusted lol

heavy orbit
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but if they are indeed different it makes sense

hazy turtle
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lower value ingredients are generally at +1 for non ing specialist later on

torn whale
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Check out that spreadsheet I linked. It shows the exact drops and counts for almost everything

heavy orbit
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is it different for every pokemon as well?

torn whale
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Yes

heavy orbit
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so there is 100% a bis for ingredients for any pokemon

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than probably that should be somewhere noted down at least for ingredient mons

hazy turtle
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absol doesnt drop 8/12 cacao the same way he can drop those amounts in apples

torn whale
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That's what I'm saying though?

neat elk
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@torn whale i just realised you might need a better watermark. incase other people might use it again without crediting you ,😂

torn whale
heavy orbit
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yeah i understood when you said it

torn whale
heavy orbit
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but thats why i said maybe somewhere we should note down what the optimal 3 ingredients are for the top tier ingredient mons

hazy turtle
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higher value ingredients drop in lower amounts at 30/60 - common trend

heavy orbit
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although is the "value" like the total points that they are worth the same

hazy turtle
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only exception would be ditto/slowpoke which need slowpoke tails to be good

torn whale
hazy turtle
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that’s why azul is saying that absol dropping apples at 8/12 amounts is good

neat elk
hazy turtle
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i dont even see a watermark atm

neat elk
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like the ones you see on YouTube even though its not even their own content

torn whale
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Problem is the template's gotten out there, so people can (and already have) recreate it and slap their own on

neat elk
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that's why I said need a better one

fickle perch
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@torn whale thanks for the update! I have a question: when it comes to ingredient drops, has it been discovered whether the quantities are hardcoded by ingredient?

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by this I mean, if an Absol drops Fancy Apples, will they always drop 8 and 12

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and if they drop a different ingredient, will that always be the same quantity of that ingredient, etc.

odd berry
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Would we really rather get 8 billion apples from Absol rather than more cocoa?

minor quarry
torn whale
torn whale
fickle perch
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I'm glad we don't have to worry about random drop numbers

worn nacelle
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I think it's not even just the counts of apples it's the fact that there's no other way to get a decent amount of apples from just one pokemon and some late game recipes require a shitload of apples

fickle perch
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yeah I was thinking that too

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if what you want is apples or filler, I have never seen that quantity anywhere else

heavy orbit
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i mean to be fair aplles is only in 1 of the best dishes.. the 55 ones and milk is in 2.. by that standard milk is the king

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i'm not doubting the apples but just saying.. on top of that raichu is a top pokemon that many will use.. eventhough it's not an ingredient mon it gathers a lot.. i don't see the apple shortage yet

worn nacelle
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I had a Pikachu and rat collecting apples and they couldn't keep up with my apple needs for desserts last week 😅

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And that's on low tier recipes even

heavy orbit
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mhm i guess it depends heavily on what your cooking

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the "best" recipe that also includes apple needs 10

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so you would need 30 apples a day

hazy turtle
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i doubt u would cook that recipe every meal tho lol

worn nacelle
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I mean it would probably be optimal to

heavy orbit
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personally at least this week i'm getting way more than 10 apples every meal time

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and i'm tossing them into the extra pot size

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but i guess it depends on your team

hazy turtle
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but u would need to generate the same 4 ingredients in copius amounts

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it’s probably not feasible

white cradle
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Feels like altarias fate as a lower tier is inevitable after magnezon loses S despite having a line exclusive berry.

hazy turtle
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altaria is berry specialist tho, magnezone isnt

white cradle
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Ohh true that helps lol

hazy turtle
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altaria fate is tied to how soon/how good the next dragon released

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if dnite is also a berry specialist, then he’s arguably outright better and simply outscales

white cradle
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I've been both pro altaria and an altaria doomer since the beginning, I understand. That would probably be the only other dragon for a long time too

hazy turtle
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unlikely that dnite completely replaces altaria niche as yache berry specialist

torn whale
hazy turtle
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mediocre skill as well

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and dnite would have stage 3 evo stats but presumably VERY hard to level just like ttar line

white cradle
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Even if dragonite isn't a berry specialist it's ability and frequency might still make it the better one tbh

hazy turtle
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ye but at least altaria would have the niche as a yache specialist

blissful mortar
# heavy orbit or does the number of "drops" get adjusted since cacao is worth more?
  1. On absol the Cacao and apples have similar actual point value when you get quantities involved. Withen a hundred points of each other at level 60. You're kinda fine with apples with the only limiting factor being pot space (and absol inv size)
  2. Stated before but there are a healthy chunk of high level recipes that need a lot of apples like lovely kiss smoothie needing 11 (and also cacao!), jiggly flan needing 10, 15 on nerolies restorative tea, 15 on the dazzling apple cheese salad, and 11 on the egg bomb curry.

You aren't hitting those amounts for multiple meals in a day off pikachu, ratata, or lmao wobbofet. Psyduck could ironically maybe get there (4x level 30, 6x level 60) but it would be pretty scuffed and also lmao psyduck on not cyan. We don't really have a great pool for lots of apples at once

worn nacelle
hazy turtle
#

later on at 30/60 u will get more ingredients but also different ingredients

worn nacelle
#

Yep unless you specifically pick pokemon that focus on certain recipes you think you'll need. Example picking a gastly with no oil and just herbs/shrooms or a bellsprout with no potato

hazy turtle
#

im generating a little more than 21 ingredients rn

#

and sometimes i cant make a specific meal bc i lack the right amount of a specific ingredient

hazy turtle
#

no mushroom gengar id prob dead unless it has crazy subs

worn nacelle
#

Yeah honestly feels like ingredient list is as important as skills, I have a decent sprout but no leeks at 60 so I'm extremely conflicted. Going to try and hunt for a better one

hazy turtle
#

it just depends on the pokemon

torn whale
blissful mortar
#

Almost nobody makes the right amount of ingredients, and if you were pumping out the numbers to fill the pot you should get more value from replacing an ingredient mon or two AND magnezone with favored berry mons and just perform as good or better

hazy turtle
#

if it comes out the magnezone skill increases meal crit chance then he’s actually very good

#

no copium

blissful mortar
#

True if ingredient amount is tied that will be neat but meh

#

The way I've described it is that your power you put into lax is like a yard stick. Magnezone extends the LENGTH of the yardstick, but doesn't progress you up the yard stick at all it isn't value it's not adding points to the yardstick like ingredients or berries do

#

It is just letting you use resources you were inefficiently gathering (cause you were getting too much) instead of actually contributing to power and the much easier and likely point effective way to handle that is just stop gathering way too much and use your favored berry boys. Most people aren't even gathering too much either!!!!

hazy turtle
#

ye magnezone isnt an outright power boost

blissful mortar
#

Only legitimate use for it I can think of is like you overstock on saturday/sunday and temporarily use magnezone to use all that extra stock over monday/tuesday maybe

hazy turtle
#

thats y we can cope that he gives meal crit bonus

worn nacelle
torn whale
#

I mean it's a good drop to have, it's the soonest you can get it on an ingredient mon

#

And I'm pretty sure nothing starts with it

worn nacelle
#

Yeah nothing starts with it but I'm looking towards the late game, leek fills out a couple of recipes that the rest of my mons can hit, potato gives my current team 0 additional recipes 😔

final mason
#

i like this version of the list, it feels solid

frail pike
# white cradle Even if dragonite isn't a berry specialist it's ability and frequency might stil...

Remember the new stuff about full energy being x2 work speed. Dragonite is probably going to be the dragon ingredient specialist rather than another berry mon, and unless it has raichu speed (it won't), with 1x berry it is in no way going to beat an altaria with x2 berry that is just topping itself off and working at x2 speed all day err'day. Especially when that altaria can use +speed -energy nature to get 10% speed of help for effectively zero downside

#

On any team that isn't running a pro wigglytuff that ability has more potential than it's being given credit for

#

Do I wish it was ingredient magnet? Absolutely. But simply not being Magnet or Strength isn't enough to declare a skill dead weight. It's more situational than those, but still absolutely a better and less situational skill than Magnezone's

#

If you move cloudbird down then you'd have to move the dumb spaceship down another tier too. I think they make sense where they are, and Altaria is likely to have a niche unless they add another dragon line after Dnite (and maybe another after that, since the third will likely be a skill specialist. Depends on what skills they get)

rancid umbra
#

If you get one with berry+....absolutely broken.

white cradle
#

I have one that has +berry at 75 and I can use my team sleep exp bonus swablu and spheal to level it to 75 faster. By the time it gets to 75 I'll probably be able to throw my exp bonus swablu the 40 candy to also be an altaria though lol

#

If you invest enough time and effort anything can be good (especially with dragons and legendaries)

frail pike
#

You don't need a "make anything good" level of investment to make Altaria good, though

#

just yours jirachiPopcorn

#

(and mine waaahhaunter)

sweet wadi
#

One thing that I think would be pretty valuable is a resource that explains what each Pokemon does to deserve the tier they're in. A lot of the reasonings sort of require an explanation (like the Absol Apple thing for example) and having all those reasonings be scattered across various Discord servers and channels feels like a bad thing for the sake of people learning things and making good decisions for which Pokemon to raise up. Does that already exist, or if not is there anything like that in the works? If not, I could put together a spreadsheet detailing why each Pokemon is tiered where it is, and then cede ownership of it to the people who actually make the tier list to edit as the list changes.

blissful mortar
#

It would also justifiably probably drop/raise a chunk of mons some tiers as it opens up discussions and critical thinking about the list :p

blissful mortar
#

I really think weighing uniqueness of berries/kit/etc. is a really poor format for a tier list that will be used by a wide audience since:

  1. by definition some of those unique things will be niche. Cool magnezone only steel berry but not a single island gives a care besides sometimes greengrass. Altaria dragon berry quite strong as a splash but 0 islands care besides occasionally greengrass again it will only exist to patch your team not being optomized to islands but doesn't have a place where it outshines other things. People will be under the impression these are must train mons they have to have on team when they in fact have no dedicated home or practical use (yet). In magnezones case even the ability isn't very good at all but it's in S just because only steel line when steel berry is a 1 million percent forgettable thing you don't need for any island, just an occasionally niche greengrass week sometimes.

  2. Mons that are actually EXCELLENT will likely get dropped multiple tiers cause something that is slightly shinier is there when really they are probably better than everything else in the tier they ended up. Like jolteon really not lagging hard behind ampharos or raichu value wise enough to warrent a tier drop but being put in B tier just because the former exist because of the uniqueness argument. It's better than what a theoretical B tier would be by a good bit and if you look at the others in B tier it's pretty clear it's better than them on average.

While I think a long term investment list can be good the current version is really divorced from practical application in the game or proper speculation. Dugtrio is/should be a mainstay on taupe island for example compared to everything else we have in the game but people see C tier and will likely refuse to catch it cause it looks like one of the worst mons. Worst offender is raticate who is D tier but is going to be our most consistent snowdrop mon till level 30 and will still be really good afterwards and carry us for a long time! That mon will singlehandidly carry most people through the hardest island we currently have available. I already talked about magnezone being not applicable to an island but even if we were to get a steel island, it's ability is really bad. If we speculate more steels at some point or another coming in, it likely will perform worse than them unless the devs butcher those mons too. Islands also always have 3 favored berries so far and literally all the other types that aren't steel have a better mon than magnezone. If it's say steel/psychic island, both types have bad availability but 5x espeon would be immediately better than anything with magnezone and I could pull this example for every type in the game. Its kit is not great in a vacuum with a bad active and oil main ingredient. Aka the list is divorced from being proper both from a current game perspective as well as a speculation perspective. What is the list trying to accomplish by "informing" people? What is it trying to inform them on?

#

I could nitpick other things that aren't magnezone of course but I think it's a prime example of what is wrong with the current list so I decided to abuse him today over the other mons.

sweet wadi
#

I also don't fully agree with every tier placement, but that's the point of making the reasonings easy to find, at least in my opinion. If someone sees that any given Pokemon is in a given tier for a specific reason, they can decide whether they value that or not. As an example, Butterfree is ranked highly in part because the return on investment for evolving Caterpie all the way up is pretty good, but if one person doesn't value those quick returns as much as someone else, that drastically changes the decision on whether raising Butterfree is worth it. The same is true of Wigglytuff and Sylveon, whose skill is more valuable to people who don't regularly get 8.5 hours of sleep. If someone reads an explanation for why a Pokemon is good and then decides "Oh, I don't actually value the things this Pokemon provides at all", that's still good information for them!

It also would help people to know what to look for before raising up a Pokemon. As I understand it, Ditto's value is that it's an ingredient mon that can have some high value ingredients, making its value entirely dependent on what ingredients that specific Ditto has, but if you're only shown the tier list with no further information you might raise up a Ditto that doesn't have anything good. The same is true of a lot of ingredient Pokemon, actually.

blissful mortar
#

ye. Like in ditto's case it's pretty meh short term as an oil specialist and it doesn't offer anything on snowdrop where it is favored. DOWN THE LINE it will be pretty great as the most consistent leek/tail pokemon! But it will be really generic till say that level 30 leeks or level 60 tails

#

I would be fine with a high placement because of its unique (and powerful notably) niche even if it isn't wow bis anywhere atm because it could be really handy at some point but it's tiering etc. should reflect that.

#

It actually gets just "above average value" compared to a lot of ingredient mons if you actually calculate out its ingredient values it just has rare ingredients which are not easy to get. It also gathers relatively slow compared to stuff like zard especially but any of the kanto starters. I agree zaazaa, something where we have solid reasoning that people can reference for a tier list would likely be an ideal solution for a "long term" list.

"is best ingredient mon on cyan long term"
"best berry mon available for taupe at every stage of the game"
"Ingredient list long term is highly unique and valuable"
"IF you value dream shards, this is the best option for dream shard farming"
etc.

frail pike
#

I have literally nothing to add, and I never shut up. All of this is important and 1000% correct

blissful mortar
#

Or like altaria "Despite not having a home right now, it is a berry specialist with decent stats for the highest berry value type! Good if you hit dragon greengrass or for a future island that favors dragons. Right now though, just a good splashy mon and the eggs are fairly hard to get which is relevant for dishes long term"

blissful mortar
lyric cliff
#

I think its a fairly short-sighted list at the moment

#

also sorta begs the question why theres just a single list for multiple categories

blissful mortar
#

I understand a single list for "what is good" if we allow the speculation that every type will have an island at some point so we seperate quality from not quality

lyric cliff
#

Yeah I think also we have no idea of the update plans

blissful mortar
#

ye that too

lyric cliff
#

I certainly hope this is more of a GO type affair where it grows substaintially

#

but I dunno

frail pike
#

I'm fine with whatever happens, optimizing this already takes so much headspace rn

blissful mortar
#

long term is HARD i could write my own thoughts down but honestly I think it would just mirror the short term list I made but give some theoretically good berry mons a higher placement if we assume they'll be favored somewhere at some point (and likely a harder island than what's available)

frail pike
#

the issue with early GO was that there was nothing to do or think about

hazy turtle
#

tbf early approach to the game should be expanding ur berry/ing list

blissful mortar
#

Early approach to this game is figuring out "EASY and EFFECTIVE" strategies

hazy turtle
#

by week 5/6 players should have enough rsc to build whatever they want and can build a team for specific islands

blissful mortar
#

long term is hard to tackle

#

I'm down to help tackle a long term look at the game but I think instead of uniqueness we need different criteria whatever that is

#

that's the hard part I think

snow aurora
blissful mortar
#

"How good are its stats+ability long term" or something

frail pike
# blissful mortar long term is HARD i could write my own thoughts down but honestly I think it wou...

I think you're right that doing even including the higher placement based on speculation has a high potential downside and a very minimal upside compared to a list (or lists) that just gives a realistic optimization for what we know we have right now. This game could go so many ways that it's impossible to read those tea leaves at this point. Like take electric pokemon, for example. Someone said that we'll probably never get an electric island because of how insanely cracked 4 pikachu 1 jolteon would be, and given that basically everyone has at least 2 pikachu I think that's probably true. But I could be wrong! So how do you reflect that likelihood in a tier list that is attempting futurevision

#

They should be rated based on greppa's likelihood to appear in greengrass, right now, and that's it

#

unless it's something that specifically requires substantial investment and long-term planning, or becomes a total waste mid/late game, and that can be a footnote

#

not a tier placement

blissful mortar
hazy turtle
frail pike
#

I could see an event, sure

#

but is it worth building around future events with an unknown timing and level of importance?

hazy turtle
#

but 4pika teams arent building for a grepa boost they’re building just bc pika’s an efficient berry mon

frail pike
#

I think trying to grab someone good of every type is probably a good idea, but not an S tier priority and maybe not something that needs to be worked out in this type of list at all?

blissful mortar
snow aurora
frail pike
blissful mortar
#

The only time magnezone for example would be optimal would be if there was a STEEL ONLY island

#

which is so far down the road and speculation too

snow aurora
#

if you invest in half the types there’s a 87.5% chance that snorlax will have a favorite berry of a type ur invested in on greengrass

blissful mortar
#

that I would be confident calling it bad on a proposed tier list. If that timeline happens you can train a magnezone then.

hazy turtle
#

but u want multiple pokemon favored not just 1 or 2

blissful mortar
#

You can run straight water on cyan and it's actually optimal

#

for 2/3 meal weeks

snow aurora
#

yea exactly, so the types with more good pokemon are better, not ones like steel where u just have a skill mon and nothing else

#

that’s why you see ppl go into cyan running almost all water or taupe with almost all fire

#

those types r so damn good

blissful mortar
#

ye. In those islands cases you mostly are running the one type that has a million good mons. If we say get an electric/steel/X island down the road (speculation) you wouldn't run magnezone ever. You'd run raichu, ampharos, jolteon, and maybe some thing good from the other berry type if they're relevant.

snow aurora
#

^^

blissful mortar
#

If it was grass/steel you'd run bulbasaur and stuff not magnezone

snow aurora
#

it’s almost worth making a type tier list imo lol

frail pike
#

yeah

#

and electric is a pretty likely combo with steel

frail pike
blissful mortar
#

Heck poison/steel/X would be just a ton of ekans, maybe some toxicroak, but it would never be magnezone

snow aurora
frail pike
#

oh nvm, you didn't mean tier lists for each type, you meant tier list OF types

snow aurora
#

yes

frail pike
#

love it

blissful mortar
#

So you're saying like a list that goes "these types have lots of good mons you want in them in case they are favored"?

snow aurora
#

panders wanna call tonight and do it?

snow aurora
hazy turtle
#

that’s rough tho

blissful mortar
hazy turtle
#

the water types u want on cyan r totodile and squirtle

blissful mortar
#

idk if I like the more generalized or nuanced approach

snow aurora
#

well i think that’s worthwhile because you can look at what types have ingredients that synergize well for recipes

hazy turtle
#

slowpoke vaporean psyduck r pretty underwhelming

frail pike
#

much more helpful for decision-making and educating

snow aurora
#

oh yea i wouldn’t be shooting for main tier list or anything

#

hmm

hazy turtle
#

i think island tier list is pretty helpful tho

#

it gives a lot of players an idea of what to build for

snow aurora
#

maybe a tier list that just weighs whether or not a mon plays well with other mons of their type ingredients wise

#

along with their individual stats

frail pike
#

lumping vaporeon in with psyduck and slowpoke is a magma-hot take

snow aurora
#

vaporeon is great

hazy turtle
#

u have to acc for investment

blissful mortar
#

Eevee is great

#

vaporeon is great

snow aurora
blissful mortar
#

idk

#

I don't think I love that either

snow aurora
#

i mean honestly that’s a big part of your island tier list it’s just less rigid lmao

frail pike
blissful mortar
#

3 favored mons = a lot of potential ingredient combinations

snow aurora
#

which is fair bc that kind of thing could be confusing to explain

hazy turtle
#
  • 80 eevee candies
snow aurora
blissful mortar
#

If I did that I would weigh the islands, not by synergy with same type

snow aurora
#

yea

blissful mortar
#

you'd want to weigh long term water list versus fairy and flying

sweet wadi
#

for the record, this is the sort of thing i have in mind for tier list explanations sheet
just state "this is what's good about [pokemon]" for every pokemon and let people make their own decisions with it

Capture.PNG
snow aurora
#

i agree explanations for each would be really good

blissful mortar
#

Ye like that works

#

I really like how that is presented

frail pike
#

Yeah, more work to create but way higher value, and the explanations can be drawn from the conversations we have to place them in the first place

snow aurora
#

i think the main big decision is how heavily we want to weigh what islands we currently have vs long term

blissful mortar
#

IMO a long term investment list should very loosely to not weigh islands

#

it shouldn't account for more than like a 1 tier difference up and shouldn't be used as a tool to push a mon down

snow aurora
#

right so is it just stats/general viability of ingredients then?

#

also skill ofc

blissful mortar
#

ye. If something is "uniquely powerful" on a specific island

#

we mention it and tier it accordingly

snow aurora
#

right so islands can bump a mon up but not down

#

hmm

blissful mortar
#

Imo. I am down to hear other suggestions

snow aurora
#

i still think that would end up pretty similar to ur island tier list just more congested in A tier lmao

frail pike
#

I think that's potentially okay, as long as we reset Magnezone to freaking zero before applying that rule

blissful mortar
#

I think it would disperse it a bit

snow aurora
blissful mortar
#

This was that early game viability list we are referencing

image.png
#

where mons that are unqiuely suited to the early islands are placed appropriately

snow aurora
#

i love that list btw don’t get me wrong

blissful mortar
#

I think a long term list will be VERY different.

snow aurora
#

just a bit too island lens for a general tier list

#

ok bet

blissful mortar
#

Stuff like ekans will get bumped up and stuff like woodo will be bumped down. Bulbasaur would be higher etc.

hazy turtle
#

i honestly think the only way magnezone would be b tier+ is if his skill had any relation to meal crits

blissful mortar
#

If we find out that overstuffing a pot gave you better tasty odds it would still only go up some

#

It's HARD to use

snow aurora
#

glaceon better i’ll say it

blissful mortar
#

Nah

snow aurora
#

💀i tried

#

ing list is soooo much better tho

blissful mortar
#

Okay maybe glace better

hazy turtle
#

ive only hit cooking+ skill off metronome

frail pike
#

then it would at least be interesting

hazy turtle
#

wasnt sunday and both crit but most likely just pure luck

snow aurora
blissful mortar
#

Currently in game rn if we had to rate them best to worst it would be like flare>glace>magnezone because of island access+ingredients but none of the three are great mons

snow aurora
#

but a crit that you know is coming seems too op

blissful mortar
#

Flareon is best because taupe is desperate for milk but the skill is still bad

snow aurora
#

yuh

blissful mortar
#

err "hard to use"

frail pike
snow aurora
#

fair

hazy turtle
#

he’s a skill up mon tho

#

i think having high proc chance is fine just the crit is adjusted

blissful mortar
#

I think rating magnezone on "critting meals more" isn't something worth bothering until we know that's a fact

hazy turtle
#

snd multiple procs increases crit value if they want to go down that route

frail pike
#

We're fantasizing about it being a different skill entirely

#

which is moot

#

if the Pokemon Company listened to me, they would all be very different games

blissful mortar
#

I get speculating that more ing = more crit chance. That doesn't change the difficulty of him being used though.

#

And it is speculation

#

until confirmed

hazy turtle
#

theory crafting how to make magnezone usable in pokesleep

#

now we just need someone on balance team 💀

frail pike
#

desperately trying to justify the UFO

blissful mortar
#

I think it is legit and VERY helpful

#

than just a numbered A-F list

frail pike
#

This is a secondary concern but when looking at long-term value, we also have to consider the very real possibility of things being meta-shifted out of relevance before free/fremium people ever finish building them. Some of these three stagers take quite a while to reach, let alone unlock their 30 and 60 foods, and not all of those are going to stay worth the trouble forever

sweet wadi
blissful mortar
#

Like in google docs as a table or in google sheets?

frail pike
#

The level 60 food part applies universally, I guess

blissful mortar
#

I can def mimic it

#

no worries

hazy turtle
sweet wadi
#

in google sheets
if you want i can just link it and you can make a copy and then do whatever you want with it

frail pike
hazy turtle
#

skill mons r generally rated much lower than the other specialties

blissful mortar
# frail pike The level 60 food part applies universally, I guess

We are looking at "long term" so 30/60 ingredients will be looked at. They'll be a soft consideration though if considered at all. likely just for borderline tiering or for tiering in the same category. If a mon is borderline say A or B we think it's great but unsure, I'd likely bump it up to BOTTOM of A tier if good ing list and TOP of B tier if bad ingredient list for example. I will be trying to tier withen the tiers so if bulbasaur/blastoise are basically same tier for example I'd weight the long term ingredients for specifically placing one in front of the either despite them being basically the same spot on the list

#

is that helpful?

frail pike
#

Yeah, I think that basically solves it. I was thinking of cases like Absol where the level 60 comedy bushel of apples is basically the whole perceived value

snow aurora
#

berries and ingredients you know 100% about how much value ur gonna get

frail pike
#

but what you described is perfect, it does make sense to use as a distinguishing factor between things that are otherwise equivalent

sweet wadi
wraith inlet
#

Do we have a tier list of how nice each Pokemon would be to cuddle with to fall asleep yet though

#

I think drop everything until we have that

snow aurora
#

mareep SSSSSSS tier everything else D-F

#

maybe swablu makes A tier

frail pike
#

Why do you want a tier list that's just mareep, eevee, and swablu on every tier?

hazy turtle
#

so those r S tier for me

snow aurora
#

i have a pikachu plushie but it’s hard as a rock

hazy turtle
#

wake up every morning with a 4* sleep style with this one simple trick

image0.jpg
wraith inlet
#

Magnezone sadly demoted again in the cuddle tier list for sharp edges

blissful mortar
#

ty

odd berry
frail pike
#

lol @ slaking

odd berry
#

i would move vaporeon and heracross up in v2.0, off the top of my head

#

because i didnt really consider how good a skills specialist with ingredient magnet could be

#

just was thinking "i'd rather have butterfree so 🤷"

frail pike
#

You could take that approach to the categorization (I think it's similar to what was being discussed, just more clearly labeled?) and plug those into the above handbook format that gives an actual explanation for each mon

#

But I think that latter part (the description format) is so invaluable that it's a must-have, as long as Panders or someone similarly informed and dedicated has the motivation to be the steward of it

blissful mortar
#

@odd berry I was a big fan of this style from zaazaa and making it a google sheet. It will let people contextualize a ranking. "Well i don't really care about dream shards so idc about the A tier lucario" etc. is really healthy I think

Capture.png
#

I'm cool with tying the letter grades to something like what you're saying "consistently strong" or whatever

#

but I prefer this style to the tier list maker style

odd berry
#

I stole this style from a Civilization tier list

blissful mortar
#

ye. I like it more than "S or D" tier personally

#

I might copy that but still do it like a google sheet

#

I like the idea

odd berry
#

I think I put all skill mons in situational lmao

blissful mortar
#

even lets me make "unique" tiers. Only okay on snowdrop Cough umbreon

minor echo
#

Theres a guy who ranks cards like you Byz

dusky sluice
blissful mortar
dusky sluice
#

Wouldnt they fill your ingredient inventory immediately?

odd berry
minor echo
blissful mortar
# dusky sluice Wouldnt they fill your ingredient inventory immediately?

There are a lot of long term dishes that also need apples and generally it seems like filling the pot is not a concern. Mathematically the level 60 apples are = too or even pull ahead of level 60 cacao, it's only issue is of course pot space. Later dishes in the game when we reach that point will casually be asking for 10-15 apples as a SIDE ingredient

#

oh marvel snap. neat

minor echo
#

@odd berry

blissful mortar
#

Makes sense in marvel snap

#

let me snag the apple versus cacao math rq

odd berry
#

You know what I think that the Swablu line deserves an S tier (consistently excellent) because it starts as a great Pokemon for Cyan Beach, and then evolves into a great Pokemon for Snowdrop (I think that one has dragon-type berry right?)

minor echo
#

Ice normal dark

odd berry
#

something has dragon I think

minor echo
#

Nah

odd berry
#

aight then forget about me

minor echo
#

Not yet at least

#

My greengrass snorlax rolled Yache this week

blissful mortar
#

okay hyro, so here we are:
level 60 apples = 12 (quantity) x 90 (value) = 1080 total value
Level 60 cacao = 7 (quantity) x 151 (value) = 1057 total value

It's a super minor difference and tldr not a lot of CONSISTENT good apple mons long term that can give you a ton of apples. You aren't unhappy at cacao or apple absol they have different meals they can hit but the apple one is kinda unique since we don't want to run stuff like golduck just for apples and pikachu isn't going to be suplying you with 11 apples PER MEAL daily (33 apples). I dunno if apples are actually better, but they aren't some kind of horrible no good doomed your absol roll tldr. Helpful? 🙂 @dusky sluice

dusky sluice
blissful mortar
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and here are just example meals that need LOTS of apples

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not clear cut really on how much we value it but likely very good!

dusky sluice
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Yea for sure, getting to essentially not care about having enough apples when making dishes seems rly useful, esp for smth like that dazzling apple salad which only needs 6 other ings

blissful mortar
#

ye. If you have a cacao-apple-apple absol you could basically ignore the requirements for the oil/milk easily just by using 4x berry specialists making it an insanely easy meal to hit whereas maybe other islands you would need like 2-3 ing specialists to hit meals this you would just need absol and like 4x favored berry mons that can hit milk/oil

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Like on snowdrop spheals drop oil and if you get like an umbreon (or lmao glace) that has 3 milk slots you can just slam that caprese salad over and over again off 1 ing specialist in apple absol

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in like 1x absol, 1x umbreon/glace, 3x spheal

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Only accounts for salad week but hey, we could work out math for all the weeks if we really cared xD

dusky sluice
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Yea im realizing it fulfills its niche rly well

warm smelt
blissful mortar
#

I am going to hit the store, and when I'm back I am going to work on a long term tier list using the info above we discussed.

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I might be.... buying a pokemon go plus + for me and a close friend for the froakie community day gastlul

dusky sluice
#

1 more question about absol, so my absol’s inventory space is 20 rn after inventory up S, is the only way to increase this space by having a subskill seed hit the inventory subskill?

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Cuz if at lvl 60 it maxes out inventory in one ing proc that seems kinda rough

minor echo
#

You can only randomly hit subskills that you have unlocked I'm pretty sure

blissful mortar
#

You actually probably really lucked out getting an inventory upgrade ironically

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I'm sure "meta" absol wants 1 or even 2 inv ups by lategame but who knows that's lategame

potent knoll
pearl pond
median sage
pearl pond
blissful mortar
# median sage so inventory L huge for almost every pokemon or just certain ones endgame?

Specific pokemon

I'm personally hot on inventory space as the "ingredient" finding skill in sideways ways but it's hard to evaluate. I think it might secretly be great to have 1 inventory on a majority of mons but thats my "hot take". It's definitely good on specific cases namely the 1 stagers that have low capacity like absol. Just like if your mon has sub 20 capacity and likes ingredients it's a good indicator you might enjoy inventory up

pearl pond
#

ok i'm caught up

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jeez that was a lot

blissful mortar
#

I wasn't expecting the massive amount of responses and discussions tbh. Azul will have fun catching up when waking up 😅

median sage
#

also considering psy’s disgusting yield, what is it’s saving grace tbh — feels like ingr-wise, absol / chikorita and even slowpoke beats him out

blissful mortar
# median sage would an inventory L run well on a high yield mon like pika?

So sorta. Pikachu/raichu are likely capping their inventory overnight but sneaky snacking means you don't really lose any berry value. Where inventory is nice is that the extra 18 space could be filled with ingredients. It's strictly better to have items go to inventory because you lose ingredients to sneaky snacking they just dissappear. It's hard to gauge how impactful this is for level 30 and 60 ingredients or what your average amount more ingredients you get us, but it is like the actual ingredient skill for berry mons that works. Ingredient specialists probably like inventory space but again hard to judge until hard % chance for ingredient amounts is discovered

#

Maybe it'll mean raichu gets you like 6 more ingredients overnight which could be really comfy! It could also maybe still be lackluster compared to other skill options. I think former might be true, but we have no way to know for sure

modest marsh
#

some news may change the model. some player X @maziari1105 got a lvl 30 pokémon, and seems like ingredients drops are picked between lvl1 or lvl 30, not an and

IMG_4905.png
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not sure if anyone shared this before

final mason
blissful mortar
minor echo
#

Wish you just got the highest ingredient you could have tbh

red orbit
#

Don't mind me. I'm just watching. I'm intrigued.

sweet wadi
#

I completed my spreadsheet of explanations for tiering placements. It's possible I missed some reasonings, but I think for the most part I got everything in there. I don't fully agree with every placement, but I tried my best to understand why everything is tiered where it is at the very least. If there's something I missed, ping me and I'll get to it tomorrow (I'm going to sleep real soon)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zv9JG376sAL_pLBiO0B3NefRraFMyoS4OX1Ujj2hXw4/edit#gid=0

obtuse loom
pearl pond
hazy turtle
pearl pond
red orbit
#

So now it's critical to have good lv 30 and 60 ingredients to maximize those rolls. charderp

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Maximize the effect of those rolls, rather.

blissful mortar
# red orbit So now it's critical to have good lv 30 and 60 ingredients to maximize those rol...

Wave and I are pouring over the mons individually giving them a healthy look and marking down best ingredient sets as a sidenote. Things like the bigger/better late game dishes etc. are being taken into consideration and marked down for the tier list. We will be giving a hard "this is best ingredient list" for each pokemon or listing multiple different options where applicable. This is gonna take a long time though. It won't be done tonight but likely tomorrow

narrow jacinth
#

@blissful mortar can we get v12 pinned please 🙂

blissful mortar
#

heckers I always forget to do that

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It slips my mind unless someone @'s me. Thank you

worn nacelle
#

So we'll all have to do our own research 😅

blissful mortar
#

We are taking into consideration ingredient quality/combination for lategame dishes as well as if there is notable pairs

#

Like zard/dugtrio are an absolutely disgusting pair that wrecks salad/curry taupe as a duo when combining their ingredient sets together

#

And are rated accordingly/noted in their little "explanation" box after their base stats are factored in for like frequency and capacity

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(those three examples I showed are for blastoise, venusaur, and raticate respectfully if you're curious)

rancid umbra
#

Whoops replied to the wrong comment, I meant to reply to the Mass Effect comment @frail pike made earlier.

blissful mortar
#

here is an example box

image.png
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It's a VERY slow process since we comb over the ingredients versus dishes alongside judging frequency/capacity for every single mon. I think it's well worth the effort though. We literally did 7 mons over an hour and half. We are not going to make this tier list quick we are taking our time on it

#

And going to shuffle things that are more borderline overtime as we start comparing them to each other (A+ might not be dugtrios resting place depending on how the other stuff we find goes, chance we drop it to A. The list right now is S,A+,A,B+,B,C)

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We're going to be tiering them withen tiers as well

rancid umbra
#

I think a general tier list should not consider mon combos or advanced techniques. The term general implies a broad summation of capability. The general tier list should be the TLDR version or the Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF). More specialized tier lists should be used to define optimal setups for unique cases.

#

@blissful mortar i think you have somewhat implemented this already by creating tier lists for each map.

blissful mortar
#

If you want a general tier list I have #1138325449034973287 available 😛

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This is specifically a "What are good pokemon kits" and looking at the full kits of the entire cast. Dugtrio/Zard is very notable since they make multiple high powered dishes together. I think people would like to know that. I am still tiering agnostic of that and the tiers themselves are based on freq/capacity/skill and the ingredient list as a whole for uniquely that mon, but I am noting particular "combos" in the explenation box still

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Throwing out a random thing but if swalot magically doubles down with blastoise to always make "best" dessert dish, I will keep swalot in C tier or whatever but note the combo down. It is very relevant for long term use if 2 mon combinations could say completely fill all four ingredients of our hardest or second hardest curry/salad/dessert

#

Conversely that dugtrio example is there because of dugtrio but the zard combo is a noticeable thing a player would like/need to know for long term so it is noted

rancid umbra
#

It might be helpful to create a combo tier list

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as in a single mon does not ocupy a slot

blissful mortar
#

Sure. I am fine opening a document to note "how to make dishes" by putting mon combinations for them

rancid umbra
#

mon sets will be ranked acording to some defined criteria

blissful mortar
#

I know for wigglytuff on the tierlist we noted down it is the only honey option for cyan. We didn't let it affect its placement (as of where we put it right now) but being the only mon to produce honey that is favored is notable

#

These might at worse decide tie breakers for mons withen tiers maybe possibly but very rarely. If two mons are identical then we would sway the ranking by how easily they work with others but for general "rank" it's not the highest priority. We will get more mons in this game overtime

rancid umbra
#

I just think wigly is good in general, at max skill it will keep the team producing at the highest frequencies.

blissful mortar
#

We were really respectful of wigglytuff. It's not S and not C tier. I am happy with where we slotted it personally

rancid umbra
#

imagine never going below 50% energy for the day

blissful mortar
#

It's on the "upper half" after we evaluated it. Where exactly in upper half only time will tell as we fill out more with the list

#

But i'm happy

#

I want to share what we have so far, but we are SO early on that a lot of this is subject to change and might give a wrong impression. I want to make sure the list is done before sharing

worn nacelle
#

Looks interesting, I'm just saying for example, dugtrio. Ideally he's listed as tomato/leek/x

blissful mortar
#

I prefer the term any but "X" works too. X makes me think it's more like we just don't know/haven't filled it in to a random onlooker is my concern. "Any" makes it sound like we considered it and then said they are all fine.... which we did 😛

worn nacelle
#

If you don't have any pokemon that can help make any leek dishes, you might be better off with double tomato, so it will require some critical thinking from whoever is actually building the pokemon. This unfortunately can't be a list to blindly follow 😔

blissful mortar
#

if it makes you happy (?) we are making a tiermaker list on the side

image.png
worn nacelle
#

But I think it'll be a good guide and spark some discussion

rancid umbra
#

I dont think anyone should blindly follow anything personally haha

blissful mortar
#

for people that just want to quick look but not think

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It will still roughly tell you how long term good something is at a glance because of how specific we are with the placements even if you are missing context

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Like blastoise being easy S tier nobody doubts I'm sure and a random person not thinking seeing it there won't suffer for picking it

rancid umbra
#

It is an inspiration to more optimized game play and deep strategies.

blissful mortar
#

Placements are like based on stats/skils/cap and the explenation box is just the why/use case of the mon

rancid umbra
#

I really think all berry spec w/ ing magnet are S+ tier

blissful mortar
#

They will be in the S or A+ tiers.

rancid umbra
#

max level ing magnet is cracked

blissful mortar
#

They are 100% never dropping below the top two tier levels

#

I think most of them are going to be hovering at top of A+ bottom of S- if I have to guess, although we will get there when we get there

#

Slaking/vigoroth are.... interesting. Walrein/butterfree are obviously in S or top of an A+ though

#

I think it'll be hard to argue differently

rancid umbra
#

Gengar is probably the best mon, it just has everything going for it

#

rare berry, good ing, extremely high freq.

blissful mortar
#

I see gengar easily making it into top two tiers, it really depends on ingredient list synergizing with itself for dishes and how many different meal types it applies too for if I am comfortable with S or A+, but likely S. Who knows though. We will hit it when we hit it and judge it then 😛

#

Berry rarity has 0 influence, although I am mentioning where applicable if stuff without islands are "notably strong" if you are on favored berry cyan or future favored island

#

Using the snippet on raichu we wrote for as an example on how we will say something is notable for potential future islands. Anyways these entries will get tidied up. This is a big project that will take the better part of the day tomorrow

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And likely sunday too tbh

rancid umbra
#

We appreciate your diligence!

blissful mortar
#

Okay I need to lay down. I'm past my bedtime and will not get my goodboy stamp now 😛

#

goodnight!

rancid umbra
#

Imagine if they added electrode into the game and how high its help frequency would be!

blissful mortar
#

Oh last thing I don't want to hijack azuls thread so I will not be updating in here. I did today because it was something that was relevant to the discussions at hand and I wanted to show the people talking about it that it is getting done

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When there is stuff to note I will make a thread as to not clog up this one since I don't want to take over azuls space

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Now gn for reals xD

worn nacelle
# rancid umbra max level ing magnet is cracked

I think the thing is ing mag scales only with skill level whereas energy skills and extra helpful scale with pokemon level. So while ing mag is the best right now it remains to be seen how they'll stack up once people start hitting 30 and 60

torn whale
# blissful mortar I really think weighing uniqueness of berries/kit/etc. is a really poor format f...

I'll skip over most of the points, they were already addressed in v12 and it seems you wrote this without reviewing the changelog.

I really think weighing uniqueness of berries/kit/etc. is a really poor format for a tier list that will be used by a wide audience
Completely disagree. At its core, the game is a collectathon. You're encouraged to fill out notes on all the berries, ingredients and such. Working toward mons that gather as wide array of drops as possible is a fine goal at this time.

While I think a long term investment list can be good the current version is really divorced from practical application in the game or proper speculation.
I definitely have considered game progression in my rankings, if anything I think it's you being tunnel-visioned on the islands we currently have. It's been less than a month since release, no meaningful updates have been pushed: it's far too early to hammer down on current applications when we have no idea what changes and additions to expext.

Mons that are actually EXCELLENT will likely get dropped multiple tiers cause something that is slightly shinier is there
Well yeah, if a mon is totally outclassed it's gonna be lower in the tier. Jolteon hard competes with Raichu as they both require a Thunderstone: they have the same helping speed but Raichu's specialty capitalizes off it way more. Jolteon's whole build is for its main skill, which requires investment in multiple berry/ing. specialists. Effectively gives Jolt a build cost magnitudes higher than others, it only makes sense to prioritize gathering helpers over it.

fickle perch
#

I personally feel that separating tiers by island would address both of these issues

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because I see the argument for both perspectives

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if we have a tier by islands, it'll be easier for people to decide which mons are best overall (based on their relative placing across all four tiers)

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and it's more scalable in that if new areas are released, they can have their own tiers

#

same if new mons are released - there'll be higher overhead because then the mon has to be placed on four tiers, but considering that it's going to make an impact probably only on one or two (if two one will be Greengrass), it shouldn't be so bad

#

and I agree that some of these placements are misleading, from my experience with some of the top tiers (example: Magnemite)

torn whale
#

Almost all of the placements Red commented on were in the old version, e.g. Mag's S tier, Rat's D tier

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I still retain the stance that there's no point in having a separate tier list. Ofc someone else can make their own for it, but you can just look up the fav berries for each island and pick mons that match

fickle perch
#

I don't think it matters for Magnezone specifically

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like I would never spend a Thunder Stone or any training amount on a Magnezone as it stands

torn whale
#

Is that because you don't wanna build Mag? Or there's better mons to use it on?

fickle perch
#

because they're Skill specialists with a skill that isn't going to be relevant for a long time to come, their berry is currently unique but won't be unique forever, and even on Greengrass with Steel favoured you can probably get better mileage out of slapping a good gatherer with any berry rather than keeping a Magnemite line on your team

#

(I was getting to that)

#

so basically from my perspective you want to evolve a Magnezone... for the dex, pretty much

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if you're making the argument for Jolteon being lower tier due to the Thunder Stone being much better spent on Raichu that should be considered too (though evolution items should be a more affordable commodity as friendship levels increase, so that won't matter in the long run)

#

I'd be okay with Magnezone being A or close to A if there was already a Steel-favoured islands where raising a Magnezone justified the placement

#

as it stands, I don't think it belongs up there

torn whale
#

Well that's partially why it was dropped from S to begin with. I still think it has potential though, you could very well pull a Slowpoke, forsake your skill and build toward drops

fickle perch
#

I thought the tier list was built in a vacuum, though

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which is how I think it should be

torn whale
#

I was referring to the thunderstone, not the island

fickle perch
#

"which mon is generally good" is a different assessment compared to "which mon is required for a certain team build"

#

yes, I'm talking about your argument that Magnezone is good with Slowbro/king

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I don't think combinations should be considered towards the placement of a single mon in a tier

#

if anything, mons that are good in specific combinations should be lower tier than the mons that are good in a vacuum (like Raichu)

torn whale
#

No that's not what I'm saying. With Slowpoke it's more optimal to not build to its skill specialty, you can do a similar thing with Magnezone

fickle perch
#

and you think Magnezone is worth it for the ingredients?

#

I don't think it's worth it for the berries for sure

#

(genuine question)

torn whale
#

No no no. For instance, with Slowpoke you wanna have sub skills like helping speed and carry capacity, stuff to help drop frequency for Slowpoke Tails. I'm suggesting the same strat for Magnezone, but its berry being the exclusive drop

fickle perch
torn whale
#

Okay, forget Slowpoke then. If you get a Magnemite spread with helping speed up, or lucky enough with early berry finding, it easily becomes S tier potential

#

As opposed to the normal strat of matching your specialty, in Mag's case main skill procs.

fickle perch
#

I don't think that should be relevant to tiering, because any mon can have a good nature or a good subskill

#

tier lists should be based on equal conditions - if you make that argument for Magnezone being S, Magnezone should be S if all mons in S have the same usefulness as Magnezone when they have an equivalent nature and equivalent subskills

#

comparing a mon with a good nature and a good subskill with another that has a bad nature and a bad subskill isn't very fair

torn whale
#

Sure, but I want to make it a point because of Magnezone's unique berry type. Nothing else in the game can fill its role even with the same type of build. Combined with my reasoning of the game being a collectathon at its core, I find it hard to justify Mag going further down than A

fickle perch
#

I don't see why even a x2 Steel berry Magnezone outclasses something else when nothing specifically likes Steel berries

#

the only situation where a Magnezone with Berry Finder outclasses a generic Berry specialist is when Snorlax likes Steel and even then, Snorlax likes three Berries per week, so you'd have to not have either of the other two to want to use a Magnezone with Berry Finder

#

and we're going into a very specific scenario there

torn whale
fickle perch
#

I've read over that, I just don't find any of those arguments convincing

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at least for this specific case

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the game is a collectathon - yes; however, once you've unlocked something, you don't need to keep training it

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game progression - if you're thinking about further islands being released, you should think about further mons being released too; if the argument is that we don't know what's going to be released and when, then we either assume releases are going to even the field for whatever is currently exclusive, or we make no assumptions and simply base our current tiers on the information we have now (the second POV is what made me suggest a separate tier for each island)

torn whale
#

It does have merit though. Again we don't know how the game will change down the line, marking down a mon because its berry isn't commonly favoured right now is shortsighted imo

fickle perch
#

I can get behind the argument for resource investment, I don't think it's super relevant here but if anything it speaks against Magnezone specifically from my POV

fickle perch
#

argument 1: what's useful now should be in a high tier due to current usefulness

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argument 2: what isn't very useful now could be useful later, OR what isn't very useful now can be in a lower tier now and be bumped up later as the game changes

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for the mons that are useful now - not much to discuss there, some species are objectively great and deserve higher tier spots

#

for the mons that aren't as useful now, here's my problem

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if you're arguing that something that isn't useful now might be useful later, you don't know who will be better than whom relative to the current tiers

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what will be the future changes? we might get an island where Steel is the favoured berry. okay but what if we get new ingredients that completely outclass the current production? what if we get another Ditto-like that can gather Slowpoke Tails and make most of the Slowpoke line useless as well as make Ditto drop tiers due to rarity/difficulty in training (few candies)? etc.

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"we don't know how the game will change" is true but it doesn't justify favouring a mon over another due to uniqueness of a berry or ingredient, because we might just get more mons that drop those same things, regardless of how good they are

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and if you decide to rate a mon higher due to potential future usefulness, you have to put it on the same tier as some other mon who is already good and might just continue to be good, again because you don't know how the game will change

#

that's why I'd rather tiers be based on present information and be updated later as we get patches, EVEN if it means moving a mon all the way from F to S or vice versa

torn whale
#

I hear that. And I still believe Magnezone has a very strong lategame even in the current state of the game. It does have utility early on too thanks to its berry. If you're gonna discredit types for not always being a favourited berry, all the sudden half the types in the game should be poorly rated now?

fickle perch
#

I question the current usefulness of the berry because any x2 fast berry gatherer is more effective than any ingredient/skill mon with a favoured berry, unless they have Berry Finder at early levels

#

and I assume the late game usefulness is because of the skill?

#

because if that's the reason you think Magnezone is good, then we might just get more three-stage evo lines that have the same skill too

#

I talked about berries because you believe that Magnezone's unique berry is a strong reason for it to be higher tier than I think it should be

#

I don't think berry type uniqueness is that important unless you have a berry specialist with a hardcoded favoured berry on a certain island that only that one berry specialist has

#

and with that said, I'd use the uniqueness argument with caution anyway, because Snorlax likes three berries

torn whale
#

Should another steel release down the line dropping Mag would definitely be a consideration. There's no telling when let alone if that'll happen though. Besides, you can and will have situations on Greengrass where all the types are berries that don't have berry specialists, or you simply don't have one caught

fickle perch
#

in my view:
(1) S tier should be a tier for Pokemon that already do something that no other mon can do, OR that do something strictly better than the rest of the competition
(2) A tier should be a tier for Pokemon that already do something better than most of the competition (except S tier)
(3) B tier should be a tier for Pokemon that are already generally useful even if lesser options than the higher tiers, OR Pokemon that have potential to be useful in certain situations but not others, OR Pokemon that aren't currently very useful but have some properties that could work in certain setups, etc.

#

with that in mind I don't see any reason to put Magnezone higher than B

#

what do you see Magnezone providing that either nothing else can do, or nothing else can do better?

#

that would justify higher tier placement

#

and again

#

2 of ANY berry > 1 of a favoured berry

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in some situations, 1 of a favoured berry could be better, but you'd have to not have any good berry gatherers (they usually have higher gather speed than single berry) or you'd have to have good berry gatherers that get really bad berries with one of the really high score berries and a good mon that gathers them going against that

#

you also have to consider that if berry uniqueness is something you're taking into account, any ingredient or skill proc replaces the equivalent of 2 berries you could get from another mon

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like e.g. comparing a Raichu with a Magnezone where the favoured berry is Steel and not Electric

#

when the single berry gets replaced by that proc, you lose double the points

#

one small addition to that, irrelevant to Magnezone but kinda related to the reasoning you've used for this tiering

#

if your objective is to encourage people to invest on mons that may be useful later, that objective is a fair one to have

#

but it can horribly backfire if the changes we get aren't the changes we expect - you can end up with someone raising a Swablu for a long time and then suddenly Dragonite being introduced as a berry specialist and completely outclassing Altaria for example

torn whale
torn whale
fickle perch
#

the question isn't what gathers Steel berries, it's what gathering Steel berries does for you better than anything else (considering this is not a Berry specialist)

torn whale
#

I already gave my stance on its placement. You don't have to agree with it, but I don't plan on changing it anytime soon. You're free to make your own tier list if you particularly want to get your views out there

torn whale
#

*answers

loud canyon
torn whale
#

I wasn't that bad was I? Felt I had to take rein since it really just came down to differing opinions

#

Like I'm all for discussion but here it went on too far and too full circle

loud canyon
#

yeah just differing definitions. maybe a lil pinned footnote explaining what each tier means can help

light gust
#

Like you're never gonna want to build a team specifically for greengrass, but you definitely will for the other islands cause those are harder and won't change their berries

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Which is why I thought a separate tier list for the other islands was necessary but that was sorta dismissed I think

#

For example you aren't gonna need steel berries ever rn other than a small chance on greengrass and even then at that point you might just have 5 pokemon of the other two berries that Snorlax will ask for

torn whale
torn whale
sweet wadi
#

By the way, all this talking in circles is exactly why I value having explanations for the tier list, like in the spreadsheet I made. That way, it doesn't matter whether someone reading the tier list cares about having "the only pokemon that gives Belue Berry" or not - the people who do can read the explanation and decide that Magnezone is worth their time, and the people who don't can read the exact same explanation and decide the opposite. Just having the tier list image, with all the information scattered across various Discord servers, sucks on its own because we all have vastly different values with this game.

blissful mortar
#

A long term investment tierlist should be agnostic to berries it shouldn't weigh one way or another for PLACEMENT

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Although if there's a unique perk to having said berry it's worth mentioning if you're doing the little explanation box thing

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@torn whale if you like you can sit in and weigh your thoughts etc. On the list I'm working on with wave. More eyes are better.

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Probably going to start working on it in like an hour

torn whale
#

Discord's acting up for me atm, hopefully it's better by then

blissful mortar
#

Okay. Well we will be gathering in the general chat in about an hour from now. If it clears up you're very welcome to pop in

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I do want you to know though rn the ranking process is slow and we are planning on contextualizing/tiering stuff based on neighbors on the tierlist as we go

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So don't be surprised at like 7 minutes or more on single mon

sand wave
#

Feeling kinda sad

rancid umbra
#

So technically magnet scales with level as well.

light gust
loud radish
sand wave
#

I just, tier lists, meta 😦
I feel sad

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cus for some reason my faves are never meta

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and when they do, it's expensive

blissful mortar
sand wave
#

I think I listed in #1137951765216645120

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but it's like some starters final evos, some pseudos, mostly bipedal mons

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unless they are cute, like spheals

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otherwise, strong and bipedal

worn nacelle
rancid umbra
#

@worn nacelle Obviously the chance of getting 21 slow tails is near 0 but if you did that would be 7182 x whatever bonus you have on a dish + the chance to critical cook. I estimate that a single skill activation has the potential to award 16k+strength. Even if you take the average value of all the ingrediants and multiply that by 21 (the expected value of a skill proc) that comes to 136.4 x21 = 2864.4 x max dish bonus x (1/X x 2) for crit cook. Max charge str M gives 4546 which is comparable to ING mag but all skill mon have lower gathering rates for ING and berries and only skill mon get charge M.

#

You effectively get charge M on a non-skill pokemon.

amber compass
#

Can someone explain why lucario went from A to B?

odd berry
#

i think it's the best mon with dream shard magnet

hazy turtle
odd berry
#

but dream shard magnet's usefulness is suspect

rancid umbra
#

Energizing cheer is really good, especially if you run it with mons that have er-.

#

Even without er-, keeping the entire team producing at optimal help frequencies is incredible.

worn nacelle
# rancid umbra <@166390891920097280> Obviously the chance of getting 21 slow tails is near 0 bu...

Ok if you're going to include literal lottery level chances then max extra helpful on ditto 3x tails is 27 tails which is more than magnet and also a higher chance of happening. Also it's like having charge strength M except a less chance of happening because it's not on a skill pokemon. Ingredient magnet is also available on skill pokemon too btw so it should be compared directly to charge M

final mason
rancid umbra
#

Also I never said extra helpful was bad

#

I did compare ING magnet to Charge M

#

ING magnet does have a higher expected value than extra helpful though

#

ING magnet will produce 21 ingrediants 100% of the time

#

Ok question, can extra helpful result in the helper pokemon getting a skill activation, or does it function like a helper whistle?

torn whale
wraith inlet
#

I hope they fix overcharge energy by making it real. Maybe limit it to 150% or whatever. Getting energy skill procs first thing in the morning feels bad.

lunar current
#

It feels bad, but you can wait it out. Quickly grab all the fruits and ingredients from night time and jump into the Pokémon box and stay there until 100% is reached

#

Nothing wasted

wraith inlet
#

A level 3 charge energy going off first thing would mean you have to wait out 3.5 hours. Even just level 1 means you have to wait out 2 hours. If you use your phone for anything else during that time it's likely the game will get dumped for RAM so I think you'll end up losing that anyways.

#

150% overcharge max would give whales incentive to buy those pillows for their entire team every morning, win/win for the devs

worn nacelle
#

But yes would love it fixed

wraith inlet
sand wave
#

is the premium pass worth it ?

#

I am just trying to select a date that can be used so that I will be charged on the day I get money

potent knoll
sand wave
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yeah I will. I just felt like I needed some more points for a helper whistle

#

cus I needed some sausages to make cheeseburger

blissful mortar
#

@sand wave it's probably the best "bang for your buck" if you want your dollar to get the most miliege it can in the game but it's still like pricey for a premium pass compared to most games. Take that how you will

#

That refresh thing foxicopter is talking about is for the free premium trial. If you are just doing trial and not paying, do that. If you're like "I think i'll be buying this long term" rip it since you can start like getting sleep points etc. now it adds a flat 1000 a month, adds up to an extra 100 a day, and the premium shop has cheaper bsicuits for catching mons. If you aren't paying, saving your current sleep points and doing what fox said of buying out two shops worth of items is better

sand wave
#

I see

sand wave
blissful mortar
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Uh so the shop refreshes once a month

Your premium trial gives you access to premium shop

#

aka, you want your trial to cover the shop before and after a refresh so you can stockpile items. They are cheaper in premium shop

blissful mortar
#

But it doesn't really matter if you're going to be paying for premium regardless

neat elk
blissful mortar
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idk what you mean now xD

sand wave
#

like when money is credited to my account

#

like wages/salary

neat elk
#

I haven't even activated the premium in my alt

main mauve
sand wave
#

wdym

#

wait is it 1 month trial or 2 week trial ?

pearl pond
sand wave
#

I see

#

idk when to tho

main mauve
#

2 week trial doesn't give you a second monthly gift no matter when you buy it

velvet cypress
#

Should I evolve my eevee into an espeon or vaporeon

snow aurora
velvet cypress
#

Okay, Ty :)

floral mason
#

Hey ya'll, I just caught this caterpie in my nap, should I train it?

Screenshot_20230814_000805_Pokmon_Sleep.jpg
blissful mortar
floral mason
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Yeah I dont really have anything too good, my pikachu, mareep with main chance up and charmander, thought i had a good eevee but her subskills I feel arent too good, atleast for me to focus on

#

Mainly trying to find one good mon to start a base team around tbh

floral mason
shrewd orchid
#

just want to ask 🙂
why is lucario A-tier?
just because of his dream shards skill and maybe good frequency? 🤷🏻‍♂️

torn whale
#

It isn't? Might wanna check the pins again

shrewd orchid
tardy knoll
#

Its half kinda click baity because thats part of the job to ramble but its going to help people a lot

quasi badge
#

I noticed the tier list says there's not currently an island that demands arbok's berry, but I'm at cyan beach and his berry is in this week's wanted list.

wraith inlet
#

Cyan is supposed to be water/fairy/flying

quasi badge
#

Yep

scenic fulcrum
quasi badge
#

oop

#

you're totally right lmao

#

thank you Barrios, I think I need some sleep

scenic fulcrum
#

I knew that was the problem even before you sent the pictures lol

wraith inlet
quasi badge
#

lmao
I wish it fixed insomnia

scenic fulcrum
tardy knoll
#

Thank you means alot

vernal orbit
#

weird to not see Togepi in it tho HiiroSip

tardy knoll
#

In the end its all down to personal preference because there's different ways to play the game

#

People who min max, people who just enjoy the gameplay, and people who love their cute and favorite pokemon

rancid umbra
solar cedar
#

And it turned out to be the stone one

visual cosmos
#

I thought the same thing with Bluk (Ghost) and Wiki (Dark) berries

#

Thankfully, due to chatting here, I caught the mistake before long...maybe only ~20 mins of fielding the wrong mon

odd berry
#

I mistook the Fire and Fighting berries

vernal orbit
visual cosmos
#

You're telling me that reading is a powerful tool that should be used to improve my experience?

#

Very sus

#

(Thanks for real though)

vernal orbit
#

it's not really well explained either so no worries

#

(your welcome ShibaHeart )

main mauve
#

Why are all poison types C/D tier? Does that just mean not to get poison types?

minor echo
#

We don't have a poison type island for one. Also their stats are just not good

worn nacelle
#

Pokemon always has poison disrespect 😔

#

All the good poison types in this game are considered other types (gengar, venu, vic)

vernal orbit
spiral steeple
raw escarp
#

man rattata suck lol. Got one skill proc with two rattata since monday

minor echo
#

Good

raw escarp
#

not good :(

scenic fulcrum
#

good

mortal grotto
#

Good

fair escarp
#

Can someone gather up the info and tell me why those Pokémon in S rank?
Means a team of 5 need all of S rank in will be better ?

IMG_4131.png
lunar current
# fair escarp Can someone gather up the info and tell me why those Pokémon in S rank? Means a...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zv9JG376sAL_pLBiO0B3NefRraFMyoS4OX1Ujj2hXw4/edit

Google Docs
Pokemon Sleep Tier List Explanations

Sheet1

Tier,Pokemon, Explanation
S,Butterfree,Butterfree is one of the best early game Pokemon to raise up, given that Caterpie evolves at Level 5, and then again at Level 8. Each evolution powers up its Ingredient Magnet main skill, which almost doubles in power after two evolutions, giving 1...

fair escarp
#

Tq

lunar current
# fair escarp Tq

This one was created quite recently and gives a different perspective.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1X9RsIpvqoK_0DBUzHswXlXDEcEmz48FuHT0GalQ0oyQ/edit

Google Docs
Long Term Investment Tier List (Lv.60+)

Sheet1

Tier,Pokemon, Explanation
S,Charizard,Second fastest group for frequency, above average capacity. Very strong ingredient set for curry/salad and the ginger is also fairly relevant on dessert as well being a big component for hitting ginger cookies if you have a double ginger zard. That t...

fair escarp
#

Ok so I follow this

torn whale
#

Yep

loud radish
fair escarp
#

If there’s a guide of
Which island & meal using which
5 Pokémon. Would be the best 😂 I want to play but no time to research

modest marsh
#

when reach lvl 30 or 60, are ingredients pokémon better than berries pokemons? let’s say if both pokemons drop snorlax fav berries and pot size is 60 (or more)

#

for example kanto starters vs johto starters

blissful mortar
#

Berry mons also start dropping more ingredients on top of their berries just scaling better with levels

#

Every level your berries increase in value (ingredients on the other hand don't scale with level just with dishes) so it's a very carefully balanced system the devs made. Very neat and I like how they balanced their game personally

rocky furnace
#

I suppose ingredients somewhat increase in value over time as the recipes level up, but that's hard to account for

blissful mortar
#

Ye. On the flip side too berry mons contribute to sneaky snacking and since their berries go up in value with levels so does your overnight sneaky snacking!

#

I'd argue for ingredients too if you were preaching berries

#

It's just there's lots of tiny little systems at play in this game it's very cute

rocky furnace
#

Oh, other question! I saw a bunch of people claiming that Berry Finder is bad on ingredient mons because it'll fill up your inventory

modest marsh
rocky furnace
#

Is it a dumb assumption that doubling your berry output is worth more than any lost ingredients?

blissful mortar
#

Nah it's probably true the only mons I can think of off the top of my head that might legitimately suffer are absol and pinsir cause shit capacity.

#

It could affect overnight gathering but also I think the impact it will have there is likely outweighed by berries like you were saying. No hard math done on that yet though we'd need ing odds

modest marsh
#

if they really allows energy recovery in box, then i think it makes sense to switch to some berry/large inventory mons during the night shift

blissful mortar
#

I wouldn't be surprised if they said no box energy recovery explicitly for that reason

#

Who knows

torn whale
#

Carry capacity is another factor ofc

raw escarp
#

Espeon goes crazy wow, 4triggers today without any mainskill up influences outside speed of help ^ nature

wraith inlet
#

Can confirm that energy over 100% will be used even if you have the app closed by your phone while on the poke box screen. First photo, my larvitar went to 112% energy this morning. I switched from the game to a bunch of different apps without closing the game, meaning my phone had it hibernating but the game would restart when I went back to it. Going back to the game about two hours later, Larvitar was at 100% energy, which then properly ticked down to 99% shortly after.

Screenshot_20230819_073304_Pokmon_Sleep.jpg Screenshot_20230819_093816_Pokmon_Sleep.jpg Screenshot_20230819_093908_Pokmon_Sleep.jpg
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So it seems that as long as you are in the poke box, it doesn't matter if your game is hibernating or not so you can do whatever else you need your phone for until that extra energy is used up. So good work, energy recovery skill pokemon, I guess.

hazy turtle
wraith inlet
#

I was on her stat page so that's all I can confirm right now

lunar current
#

I can confirm that I had energy overflow this morning on my Swablu. Switching mons after the first energy tick happened will default it back to 100%

worn nacelle
#

It might just be a weird interaction from leaving the pokebox screen and going back to the snorlax screen

#

Either way I've been getting 2+h of energy on a ton of my pokemon every day just by using the pokebox screen method so far

wraith inlet
#
  1. Get energy
  2. Close game
  3. ??? (wait 10minutes per energy above 100)
  4. Profit
worn nacelle
#

Yeah that's what I tried but forgot to check and I've had a bunch of energy procs today and can't remember exactly in which order they happened haha

whole valley
lunar current
olive sapphire
#

@raw escarp how many triggers does it normally give you?

raw escarp
#

Cant say yet, this is my 3rd day with it triggers this morning again right away though

whole valley
olive sapphire
#

Ahh ok. I ask because I have a heracross with ^speed nature too and is a skills specialist just like Espeon with similar frequency.

Haven't found anyone else running similar pokemon and posting research on skill triggers.

lunar current
whole valley
#

Weird, as long as I don’t leave the screen it’s been fine for me

#

I’ve checked a few other Pokémon while I’m sitting there waiting

light gust
#

Can someone explain why Doduo is better than Totodile on Cyan Beach as a berry specialist? Doesn't Oran berries give more base power than Pamtre berries?

wise junco
#

Faster frequency (i think?)

light gust
#

Does the faster frequency offset the power difference of those two berries? At lv 30 Oran berries give 10 more power than pamtre, and at lv 60 they give 30 more power

idle oracle
#

well most people don't have level 30 mons yet

visual cosmos
#

Frequency chart for reference

median sage
#

what do the numbers mean btw

visual cosmos
#

The lower the frequency the more frequently the pokemon will attempt to gather berries or ingredients