Azul's Helper Pokémon Tier List

[heavy orbit]

or did you mean the energy down nature before the patch got up to 100?

[blissful mortar]

They both did

uh idr energy on sleep 100% so i won't comment. Don't want to say false info

[heavy orbit]

i always sleep with 100 score or sometimes 95 the lowest.. i never had my mons not be 100 energy when waking up

but if energy down mons get only 80 energy are they unusable?

making them an F tier version of the pokemon?

[blissful mortar]

It wasn't a nerf that hit only energy

EVERYTHING gets 80 energy instead of 100 now

you went to sleep around 20% energy

[neon tree]

fr?

so now energy reducing natures get 70%

[blissful mortar]

and your energy down mon was probably like at 14%

[neon tree]

you know what i have a energy down mankey on right now

ill see what it is in the morning

[blissful mortar]

Cause energy down eats energy faster. So before the nerf you would have been fine all 100. post nerf though you're not full the 20%'s still hit 100 but the down energy hit 94% cause it had a lower amount already

[neon tree]

damn so less starting energy plus more energy depletion

[heavy orbit]

so a team energy booster is needed basically?

[blissful mortar]

No

we don't know

we are testing energy later this week and when we see how it affects things, we shall put out a statement on mathcord and give people HARD number values

[neon tree]

i am happy when my wobuffet gives my mankey 14 energy

he is always so sad

[blissful mortar]

People that don't sleep well probably could really want energy recharge I'll say that confidently if you're only sleeping like 4-5 hours a day

and not hitting full drowsy

[heavy orbit]

i was so happy when my gastly had energy down and helper speed up

now today i'm worried xD

[blissful mortar]

It will be worse but it will probably still be a really good nature

we will see

[heavy orbit]

i have another neutral gastly that has berry find + but only at level 50

but i feel like helper speed up is just so good

[blissful mortar]

Help speed up is great 10% frequency is really solid

my hunch is that down energy won't be ideal for that nature but you like help speed enough you don't care either way it'll be a "slightly positive" nature that churns through energy/gathering a little fast so it peters out towards the end of the day

Might even be basically neutral if the energy bonus is high. I'm excited to test

[heavy orbit]

honestly ones we figure things out we should probably have a nature tier list too

[minor kraken]

I slept to 100% today and my totodile with energy down nature did not recover fully. I only checked now so my other mons with normal are at 88% now but totodile is at 79%

Don’t know if it helps much but is sad how it’s impactful now

[blissful mortar]

we legit were going to do a nature tier list on a podcast not far from here and put up a vod

but we have to reevaluate ALL of that now lmao. We're going to have to push it back a smudge

like a day maybe 2 max

[warm smelt]

sleepcast

[heavy orbit]

there is a calculator that calculates how much your team gives you by the end of the week.. but if it calculates correctly.. at least for "neutral" berries the tierlist is almost flipped on it's head

[warm smelt]

[heavy orbit]

like if u put all of them in and check.. dugrtio and absol give so much weekly points

and butterfly gives for example almost nothing

[blissful mortar]

The calculator isn't accurate :/

has a bunch of faulty numbers and assumes things many of which are off

It can guesstemate but it isn't right

[heavy orbit]

it's a shame.. if we have a real calculator working we don't have to guess about tierlist

cuz it would be hard numbers

according to the calculator (if it's wrong it doesn't matter i guess) for example jolteon would be the best evolution followed by espeon and than sylveon for eevee

[quasi fractal]

What's the reasons for mons like for example sudowoodo to drop from the top to the bottom tier? Is it just outclassed by other species with the same skill?

[final mason]

Low carry limit, slow frequency, and only gets +5 carry limit if evolved from Bonsly, outclassed by Flaaffy which can still evolve one more time

At least that's how I understand it

[torn whale]

Yeah that's the gist of it

[blissful mortar]

The skill is still top notch and it's an easy to evolve mon.

Just meh when comparing all fully evolved

The other charge M outclass it

[final mason]

I've been using it since my snorlax likes sitrus this week and he's fine

But idk how golem would compare

[blissful mortar]

They do a little different things bit I think golem probably better long term

It gathers lol faster than woodo at least and has big meaty arms to hold many potatoes and beans

[final mason]

The bean man has arrived

[quasi fractal]

Ohh right that makes sense, it's good for now but falls behind in the late game when others evolve, thanks!

[blissful mortar]

Ye ye

You prefer bonsly -> woodo btw

Getting main skill level ups is really potent and "almost" just flat out neccesary for it. Compound it with woods low capacity and yah.

@quasi fractal

[quasi fractal]

Right right, I ignored all sudowoodos that appeared in camp and evolved a bonsly with skill trigger, he's been a great helper and that's why I was confused by such a huge drop in the list lol

[blissful mortar]

Ye

I'm a soft fan of woodo

Not like togekiss though. I will promote the propaganda

[final mason]

[obtuse loom]

Hey Mint, you've entered into my domain again ;p

[warm smelt]

[obtuse loom]

Btw i saw the comment before: ye services were nerfed

[warm smelt]

Nooooo

[obtuse loom]

But only if you were a screen-always-on farmer

[warm smelt]

I wasn't but RIP to the grinders

[final mason]

Does sleeping with your phone count as "screen-always-on"? Or is it just went you're at the island?

[vernal orbit]

isn't this post about the tier list ? 👀

[final mason]

[shrewd orchid]

😂

[torn whale]

Wonder who reposted the tier list 👀

Some credit would've been nice, especially when copy-pasting the entirety of my pinned message

@potent knoll this you?

[silver pecan]

@torn whale question with your tier list. Is it worth having just team full of your top tier or should I have a certain amount of each ability

Like say is it worth having mewoth and riolu in same team even though they do same ability

[torn whale]

No definitely not. Helpers that are functionally similar are usually placed next to each other

[hazy turtle]

fav berries r bis early

[torn whale]

Berry and ingredient mons you can double up on for sure, but definitely not worth it with skills mons imo

[silver pecan]

Oky and priotise fav berries of a a tier over an a tier or not worth it after changes

[torn whale]

*for the most part, things like ingredient magnet helpers are fine

[torn whale]

Wdym?

[hazy turtle]

the current tier list isnt an early game tier list btw

[silver pecan]

Like say a C tier gives better berries for that week would I take it over a s tirr

[torn whale]

It does consider early game aspects, just the whole list isn't dedicated to that

[torn whale]

Yeah

[silver pecan]

And sorry for spam of questions is there a list anywhere of best sub traits and natures

[torn whale]

Unless both types happen to be featured, then I'd take the higher tiered mon

[silver pecan]

+exp is best ?

[hazy turtle]

+specialty is best

so for a berry/ingred mon +help is bis

skill mon +main skill bis

[torn whale]

It's prolly the worst actually. -exp is ideal since that's the most throwaway multiplier

[silver pecan]

I see

Using candy to level up is rough but guess it's just how it goes

Thanks so much for help both of you

[wraith inlet]

Exp natures don't affect the pokemon weirdly, they affect research exp.

[silver pecan]

O really interesting haha

[stone monolith]

This is now incorrect they do affect pokemon negatively at least. Since yesterday

[silver pecan]

Is speed attached to exp?

[wraith inlet]

Ok, I guess I called it earlier 😅

[stone monolith]

Not really - Helper Speed increases how quickly (supposedly) how fast you get berries and ingredients. Not EXP towards leveling your helpers... It raises Snorlax strength faster though.

[potent knoll]

Yep that's me. Sorry I wasn't sure how to credit you other than saying it's from the Pokemon Sleep Discord. Let me know how you want to be tagged and I'll edit the post

[silver pecan]

Alright so which natures are "best"

[hazy turtle]

it varies

[silver pecan]

Like actual names cause I understand something's are good + but what things should I not make negative

[hazy turtle]

https://www.serebii.net/pokemonsleep/natures.shtml

[final mason]

petition to raise meganium at least one tier it's the only grass-type berry specialist

[silver pecan]

I've got a gentle swablu with helping speed worth keeping?

Such a basic game on the surface but this is more complicated then the actual game haha

Also feels like I'm playing Diablo getting all the right stats

[hazy turtle]

i mean these pokemon r worth keeping until u find a better replacement

even a really good one may be replaced

[stone monolith]

There's a Google Doc somewhere... i'm trying to find where it was posted that has a lot of good info in it about natures. I couldn't easily find the pin for it so I'll post it once here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1klboAkPhl4MitUL7c2od8CROkomjT6Ar9Rjw-2lrZwE/edit

[torn whale]

As in it affects Snorlax's drowsy power?

[stone monolith]

No. I just meant that Helper Speed increases Snorlax's strength by you getting more berries and ingredients faster... To give / feed to snorlax.

[torn whale]

Oh, what was the change to exp multiplier then?

[hazy turtle]

it affects ur mons now

[stone monolith]

EXP Decrease Nature now negatively affects how much your Pokemon gain from Sleeping EXP.

IE: A Decrease in EXP for a Pokemon who gains 100 EXP from Sleeping only gets +82 EXP for the night. Not +100 EXP

Candy Do not appear affected. +25 EXP regardless of Nature

[hazy turtle]

ye i think energy down is still safe esp if u run a +energy all skill mon

[torn whale]

One of my mons came with 87% after a perfect sleep so idk

Energy for everyone may be necessary to make up for that gap

[hazy turtle]

ye

u only need 1 pokemon with gold energy skill as well to semi-counteract energy down as well

[torn whale]

Overall I'm glad these nature changes were made. Having natures with no relevant downside is pretty unbalanced

[hazy turtle]

it also makes energy skill mons much better

whereas before energy skill was dead

[stone monolith]

-EXP kinda hurts, but still not that bad since it only affects Sleep EXP... Candies are still probably the way you'll level guys up. And you can only get 100 Sleep EXP a day max

[final mason]

which makes more of togekiss's recallable skills valueable

[red orbit]

-EXP was fixed. It affects Pokemon EXP now.

[stone monolith]

Right I posted that.

[red orbit]

Oh. Derp.

I saw Sleep EXP and thought you meant Research.

[stone monolith]

All good 🙂

[red orbit]

I'm gonna go wake up and then come back lmao. My bad

[hazy turtle]

i think certain mons -sleep xp kinda bad tho

ie eevee and other friendship lines where u alrdy need to hit x hours to evolve them + 80 candies

[neat elk]

it's 20% up or down depending on nature

[stone monolith]

It's a diminishing return... Coming across 1 base level sleep style of a pokemon is 75% of the EXP you could have earned from Sleeping. If only 1 of your friends chooses that for your photo... You've now completely evened out the EXP gains from a night's sleep.

[hazy turtle]

-xp down is still the safest though

[final mason]

just dont have a whole team of -exp 👍

or youre just gatekeeping yourself from ranks

[hazy turtle]

i gotta somehow log 150 hours with eevee

[vernal orbit]

working on the counter act

[final mason]

thats like almost three weeks worths of sleep

goated chikorita

[hazy turtle]

sleep xp bonus applies to all

cracked

[vernal orbit]

you can get it in less, as it's total hours not slept hours recorded, so even if you nap 5hr , then sleep 10hr, the game will tell you "you only could record 3,5hr out of 10" your Eevee will gain 15hours of sleep/150

[final mason]

sleep for a week straight

[vernal orbit]

manually adding data also works lol btw

[hazy turtle]

ill just sleep my standard 3 weeks

no point cus still need candies anyway

[vernal orbit]

true if you don't have candies no need to rush

[hazy turtle]

even if i use hard candy s which is 3(?) per use, i would still need double that amount lol

[silver pecan]

Can someone explain why altaria is a tier

S tier

[hazy turtle]

dragon berry specialist

[silver pecan]

And it's ability to just give energy to itself is whatever?

[hazy turtle]

yes

[silver pecan]

Mostly a tier just for it's berry drop?

[hazy turtle]

but it’s helpful now bc of energy changes

[final mason]

its also the only mon in the game that can drop yache/dragon berries

[solar cedar]

S tier is mostly for specialist that you can't really get anywhere else

[hazy turtle]

well rn. dragonite will be added soon probably

[final mason]

for sure

[silver pecan]

Think it's all starting to make sense to me now

Imma go through my mons and see if I can make a good team

[hazy turtle]

even then yache specialist is still solid s tier

[final mason]

if dragonite is berry specialist then it should be A or S probably

[solar cedar]

A tier is mostly just overal good at the job they excell at

[hazy turtle]

yache has highest base of any berry

[final mason]

i gotta spread more meganium propaganda

[silver pecan]

If anyone has a "perfect" team planned with abilties and natures all written in I'd love to check it out

[solar cedar]

Meganium actually saved the president once!

[final mason]

woah thanks meganium

[hazy turtle]

there isnt really a perfect team though

[silver pecan]

I love the grind to find good shit (Diablo) but I can't for the life of me pick it myself

[final mason]

the math nerds are making a website

[silver pecan]

Yeah outside of the weekly berries @hazy turtle just a universally good team

[final mason]

kinda like this one https://unite-db.com/

[hazy turtle]

like “ideally” u would run smth like 3-4 berry specialist +arcanine/flareon/sylveon

[final mason]

but for sleep

[silver pecan]

Yeah that's what I need

[hazy turtle]

and then ingredient wise u just work with what you saved up last week

[silver pecan]

Thank you math nerds

[solar cedar]

praise be the math nerds

[silver pecan]

I'm really struggling to get enough ingredients for each of my meals

Is it worth having a nothing week then a really good week and rotate

Or is there a way to be sufficient every week with a good built?

[hazy turtle]

u can be sufficient and save ingredients

[silver pecan]

2 berry finders 2 ingredients 1 togekiss ?

[hazy turtle]

which is what im doing rn

[silver pecan]

Or another support?

[torn whale]

I'm working on an update to the tier list, would shake up the top two tiers. I feel enough time has passed to confidently say what's OP beyond just exclusive drops

[solar cedar]

pogggg

can't wait to see some great edit notes again

[solar cedar]

with my metapod and bulbasaur using their skills every now and then i seem to get around 60ish a day

[silver pecan]

So is this "op"

Good nature good ingredients seems good sub skills

Or am I still missing stuff

Carry capc seems a lil low

[odd berry]

Carry capacity isn't random

It will rise as you evolve

[silver pecan]

Oky

But otherwise good mon?

[worn nacelle]

This might change the tier list? https://discord.com/channels/1129035839398228028/1136667434741399582

[odd berry]

It's good! Especially short term cuz of Helping Speed M

its other subskills, I could take or leave

[hazy turtle]

that’s close to bis ghastly

really OP tbh

[silver pecan]

Sweet well keen for new tier list and a "build guide" from the math nerds

I better get to sleep it's bed time haha 🤣

[final mason]

Idk what bis means and at this point I'm too afraid to ask

[hazy turtle]

best in slot

[silver pecan]

Best in slot

[wraith inlet]

bishonen I'd ship (or best in slot depending on context)

[final mason]

[hazy turtle]

quiet ghastly with help speed m on 10 and a gold on 25 is very strong

[silver pecan]

One more question

Prio evolution or leveling ?

Guessing evolution outside of level requirements

[hazy turtle]

level 10 > evolution is p standard

[wraith inlet]

yeah it should be prioritizing subskills or evolution, not levelling or evolution

[hazy turtle]

my reasoning is that any pokemon that u’d want to evolve will have a good level 10 skill

[silver pecan]

Yeah was incase of this lil dude who I'm not sure is good

[hazy turtle]

that is alr

+help is better on caterpie

[solar cedar]

Caterpie does best finding berries, and the extra ingredients skill is a nice addition, but the nature is slowing down berry finding.
I'd probably go with a better ingredient pokemon if available

try asking in #rate-my-mon-or-team, they can help even better!

[silver pecan]

Oky I see so if they give +2 berries you want to focus on that

What's a good example for an ingredient mon?

This is the crew atm

[hazy turtle]

ghastly and squirtle r ingredient mons

if u check details for ur pokemon, top right will tell ur their specialty

berries/ingredients/skill

[torn whale]

There's a new template with the Sleep sprites, which do you guys prefer?

[final mason]

i like the sleep sprites more personally

[silver pecan]

Same

[odd berry]

sleep sprites baby

[final mason]

is a -energy recovery nature not as bad if u can get the recommended sleep the game wants?

compared to a -exp nature

[ocean tartan]

sleep sprites for sure!

[hazy turtle]

even if u dont get 8.5 hours u can still input a nap

[torn whale]

We have a fresh coat of paint for v10, plus a massive overhaul alongside it:

• S tier conditions changed such that it's no longer exclusive to helpers with special drops. I moved up Raichu, Butterfree and the Kanto starters, since they're such good early game picks that are well worth investing into.
• Johto starters to A: I heavily underrated these mons. Have plenty of strong points much like the other starters, only downside being a bad main skill which hardly matters for their specialty.
• Primeape from C to B: I saw a fair few users commenting on this placement, I have to agree it was too low. Pretty great stats for a stage 1 evo, niche berry type and honestly better than other specialists in this tier.
• Vaporeon and Heracross from B to A: mcmandin showcased the power of Ingredient Magnet the last few days, the results being impressive enough for this change. The skill only gets better as you progress, unlocking more ingredients the skill can drop both count and type.

[odd berry]

lucario in A?

also why don't we know anything about sableye

[minor kraken]

no one has unlocked taupe island

(first place where you can get it)

[odd berry]

is that island #3?

[minor kraken]

yeah

next week is prob when info about sableye comes out

[odd berry]

isn't there a fourth island too? is there nothing exclusive to it

[minor kraken]

im going to assume there's a fourth

yeah there is

[final mason]

meganium fans rise up

[odd berry]

i love chick corea 🇪🇸

[lavish ravine]

Are there any studies how energy works and how it affects berry pick rate and/or skill activation time?
do team Pokémon now start every morning with 80% energy even if I have a 100 sleep score?

[odd berry]

do your pokemon have energy down

[stone monolith]

Your helper has to have a decreased energy gain nature for this to be the case

[wraith inlet]

#1136667434741399582 message
Single user, single day of research. More information needed.

[torn whale]

@odd berry I answered the Lucario thing somewhere in here

[lavish ravine]

Thank you, I guess the tier list will change after the energy research is done, I feel like energy skills that fill the whole team energy up when triggered will be very important (wigglytuff to S?)

[worn nacelle]

If the tier list is for late game ingredient magnet will get outpaced by charge energy s

Depending on if your pokemon have +ingredient subskills/natures

[torn whale]

Magnet can get up and running right from early game, and has improvement into late game as explained in the tier changelog

Besides the best ingredient specialists do rank above the magnet skill mons

[worn nacelle]

Makes sense, so this is a mixed early/late tier list now

[torn whale]

I'm trying to make it more for everything. Before it was pretty exclusive to late game, now I'm including more that's good at any stage

i.e. the whole top tier redo

[worn nacelle]

Yeah definitely more useful for the everyman this way

[torn whale]

Do you see anything in lower tiers that could be ranked higher once at later stages?

I'm trying to see if I missed any but doesn't seem like it

[worn nacelle]

I'd have to do some math but if charge energy s works out better late game rhan ingredient magnet then vic/ttar would go up and Kanto starters would drop

But I'd wait on the math before doing anything as right now the Kanto starters definitely outperform

Also wiggly might be very very good late but also math dependant

[torn whale]

I can see the logic. We do know that kanto starters are good now and still would be far into the game, whereas vic and ttar have a slower start but likely peak higher. Correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't energy charge only matter for when you have a minus nature?

[hazy turtle]

if freq is based on energy now then it matters regardless

[torn whale]

That and you really need a good build for main skill to become reliable

[torn whale]

Oh right yeah

And from what threshold it starts to become relevant, if any

[hazy turtle]

looking at skills, what is buffed matters a lot more imo

-help should always be avoided

but +help -ingred/skill is as good as +help -energy for berry specialists

[worn nacelle]

Energy is relevant at all points in time now unless you get a proc right before you go to sleep. This is assuming that energy over 100 is a benefit over 100 energy but that's also hard to test

Otherwise there will be diminishing returns

[ocean tartan]

did people figure out if you can get your energy above 100? and if yes, how it works?

[torn whale]

It's by having the skill proc when you're close to/at full

e.g. a 13 energy heal when a mon's at 95 would take it up to 108

[ocean tartan]

ahh ok!

thank you Azul

do you think Sylveon will go higher in the tier list now, since energy nerfs?

[rancid umbra]

Noob question, how do I view the latest results?

Also I thought nature's were only 10% not 20%

Aka energy down would give 90% instead of 100

[fickle perch]

energy recovery down is ~12% empirically

[hazy turtle]

actually getting proc before sleep isnt even that bad possibly

[fickle perch]

my energy recovery down mons woke at 88% instead of 100% with a 100 point sleep

[hazy turtle]

energy is only recovered to full after sleep session so pokemon still use energy while ur asleep

[fickle perch]

not sure if other multipliers differ or if it's supposed to be 10% and currently bugged

[rancid umbra]

20% would be game breaking

[fickle perch]

I reported it either way

my mons were not at 0%

so they should've woken with more energy

but they didn't

[rancid umbra]

Agreed

[hazy turtle]

they can fall to 0 during sleep

hence y u were at 88

[rancid umbra]

Recovery should equal new added energy, not percent energy needed to recover

[fickle perch]

idt that's correct

I woke with mons at 100% every day

if what you said was right we would never have 100% energy lmao

[rancid umbra]

As in 100 new energy would be reduced to 90

[fickle perch]

this

anyway it doesn't make sense to me that mons lose energy when you track sleep

and it doesn't make sense mathematically with the recovery of my other mons either

[rancid umbra]

I think they lose energy because they keep collecting.

[worn nacelle]

The other thing to consider is that ingredient magnet Pokemon aren't as reliant on their subs/supports. The main skill collects just as fast regardless

But the ceiling for like a ttar with 4 pokemon with helping bonus pumping out ingredients at 120%+ energy is nuts to consider

[fickle perch]

depends if main skill trigger is energy based

we don't know if it is, iirc

[torn whale]

It'd depend on the info we gain regarding the patch and how much energy's effects have changed. It could go up to A depending on the results, but unlikely to be S due to lacking performance early on, until it gets enough investment

[rancid umbra]

It seems to be from my observations anyways

[worn nacelle]

Proof of this, my larv this morning

[worn nacelle]

Oh wow, didn't even consider this

[fickle perch]

I generally have 92-96 as sleep scores and my mons have always recovered to full

so I don't think that's correct

literally the only exception ever was my ER- natures

[worn nacelle]

Hmm also true, I wonder if it snapshots energy while you sleep or if it just assumes collection rate at 0 energy

Like if you have a 100 energy Pikachu and a 0 energy Pikachu, who collects more while you sleep?

[fickle perch]

no I think the game just caps you at 100 and that cap is lowered by your nature as it stands

and it shouldn't be

because then ER- natures never hit 100

which they should if you rest enough

[worn nacelle]

I think -er nature as reported in other thread was -20

And if your mon only went to 88% that means it had a little left over?

[fickle perch]

my experience says ~12%

unless it's 20% and the rest was my leftover

I could have gone to bed at 8%

I didn't check, but I know I was some % above 0

[rancid umbra]

-20% is busted!

[worn nacelle]

Hmm since you're running -er maybe check tonight energy before bed, this should be easy to test

[fickle perch]

that said, nature modifiers at 20% are busted

[rancid umbra]

Yes agreed

[fickle perch]

sure I will 🫡

for science

[worn nacelle]

The worst part about the er natures is that the negative is bad and the positive isn't even good so the pool of acceptable natures is so much smaller now

[fickle perch]

anyway I am not running this on purpose lmao

I don't have any other Eevee

got unlucky

ER- as it currently stands is the worst

you basically NEED a skill or subskill to mitigate that horrid downside

[worn nacelle]

I think ingred, main skill, er natures are 20 and help is 10. Makes sense as the subskills for help have numbers lower than the other comparable ones

[rancid umbra]

Well I choose -er mons on purpose because I could recover to 100 every night aka very little negative impact.

[worn nacelle]

But just a theory for now until we actually get data on ingred/er/ms

[rancid umbra]

Now they permanently decrease by 20% maximum recovery. Literally a best in class to worst in class nerf.

[worn nacelle]

Help speed might still be worse but it's really close

[rancid umbra]

Why is help speed bad?!

[worn nacelle]

-10% speed that you can't even remedy

[rancid umbra]

It increases your help frequency

[fickle perch]

no help speed down is bad

[worn nacelle]

Sorry help speed down

[fickle perch]

help speed is great

[rancid umbra]

Haha I was like uhhhhh everything I know to be true is now wrong

[vernal orbit]

my berry team is so impacted by that

i have 3 mons with nature energy down ....

[worn nacelle]

Yeah the energy changes and nature fixes are really screwing with teams

[rancid umbra]

They need to tune back -er to 10%

[worn nacelle]

Feels bad taking -main skill on my charge energy s pokemon now that I know the skill is actually decent

[rancid umbra]

20% is ridiculous

[vernal orbit]

now i'm looking at nature with no changes like "you aint' as bad, at least any change won"t affect you !"

[worn nacelle]

Same lmfao, I just went through the same thought process this morning

Some pokemon I had counted out are back on the menu

[rancid umbra]

Exactly, you can't nerf it haha

[worn nacelle]

Especially because-exp is now -pokemon exp

[rancid umbra]

Are these patch changes listed somewhere?

[worn nacelle]

Yes, in japanese apparently

[rancid umbra]

Hmm google translate?

[vernal orbit]

nobody did a post about them in english ?

[worn nacelle]

There was one buried in one of these threads I think, a screenshot of the Japanese app

[vernal orbit]

i would be surprised nobody translated it

[rancid umbra]

That is messed up

[hazy turtle]

its speculation

[hazy turtle]

it could be that sleep score is separate from energy regen as well

or that there's a modifier for it so its not 1 to 1

[wraith inlet]

It is 20%. Pikachu and Bulbasaur both had 0% energy when I went to bed. 95 sleep score, Pikachu recovered 19 less energy than Bulbasaur.

Similar to what I saw yesterday which was also 20% rounded up. Someone else saw 20% rounded down, so there's some hidden decimals somewhere probably.

[stone monolith]

I don't know if it is the same as EXP down, but it's not exactly a flat 20% i don't think... EXP Works such that if you get a sleep score of 100... and you have an EXP down helper... that helper only gains 82 EXP.

Rather than the flat -20

[final mason]

📌

[blissful mortar]

We are doing this in the sleep mathcord. We have it in the announcements! it's another sleep server but more dedicated to specifically data gathering and testing instead of being more general (and a lot smaller)

[final mason]

good pinning lol

[obtuse loom]

https://tenor.com/view/random-random-citizen-megamind-citizen-super-hero-gif-5727130

[loud radish]

how come a couple of my Energy Recovery Down mons have the same morning energy as the ones with no energy bonus or negative? does exp gain nature give energy too?

[wraith inlet]

That would be a weird twist

Did you make note of their energy levels when you went to bed?

[blissful mortar]

You RECOVER at the same rate

but you burn through it faster

So if you slept and they were both at 10% then they should both wake up at 90%

-energy will get through all that faster though

[loud radish]

everyone was at zero by the end of the night. I just meant the energy they start with. 3 of 5 mons had 49%, wartortle either energy Recovery has 74% and Squirtle somehow has 61% . only been an hour or so since I woke up

[heavy orbit]

they don't have the same in the morning.. today my energy down mon had 20% less

they just fixed the natures today.. the jp app actually has patchnotes

just in english they didn't put it in the patchnotes

[loud radish]

not sure whats giving this Squirtle a litle more

[wraith inlet]

They don't seem to use energy at different rates

[worn nacelle]

Yeah energy is used always at the same rate, 1 every 10 min

Nature affects recovery

[wraith inlet]

Did an energy boost skill trigger on it

[loud radish]

no skills trigger yet today

jigglypuff skill does a blanket 7 for everyone

Wartort has the bonus recovery nature, so +20

[blissful mortar]

Hmmm let me check but I am pretty sure this is true. let me double check

Better safe then sorry

[heavy orbit]

my gastly has excactly 20% less than the rest

same as this morning

it's -recovery and +help speed

and it did not change the entire day

[blissful mortar]

you're right my b

I crosschecked at mathcord and ooooopsies

[heavy orbit]

it basically means if you have a -recovery it gets 80% max energy if u get 100 score

[blissful mortar]

Well 80 is the amount overnight though 100%

[heavy orbit]

you can't get more than 100 score

so 80 is max recovery for them

[blissful mortar]

so energy neutral gets back 80, energy up would back 96%? and down would be 64% recovery?

If I am reading mathgeek right and mathing right

[heavy orbit]

no i slept 10 hours today

it only went up to 80

it can not go above 80

[blissful mortar]

Yesterday they changed it to 80 energy per 100 sleepscore instead of 100 energy per 100 sleepscore

[blissful mortar]

was this with energy up mons though

[heavy orbit]

no the gastly has energy down

the rest has energy neutral

the rest of the team got to 100

the gastly got to 80

[blissful mortar]

huh

that's weird

[heavy orbit]

the score was 100.. so it can't get more

and i slept more than the 100 score too

[blissful mortar]

I can't trust it without a screenshot but energy F'n weird

[heavy orbit]

so both are at least for me confirmed

[blissful mortar]

i wouldn't be surprised if bug or something

[heavy orbit]

if an energy down would only get 60% they would be totally unusable lol

but i can check tommorow when i wake up

100% it was at 80 energy though

and i don't have any energy mons

[worn nacelle]

If an energy down pokemon goes to sleep at 100 energy does it wake up at 80?

I would assume not but if they capped it then that's the case

[blissful mortar]

Count the before and after nature and how much sleep score you get for the down energy and an energy neutral mon

is the way

[heavy orbit]

i don't understand what your saying

but i'm not changing any of my mons out i have a team i use pretty much the entire week

my score is always between 95-100 i sleep enough most days

[hazy turtle]

i have two eevees with -energy so ill test tn

[wraith inlet]

You can also do a nap to get the energy recovery down pokemon up to 100, or test if it caps at 80

[hazy turtle]

i was going to test to see if energy drops during sleep

[wraith inlet]

Like if your pokemon is at 20 energy when you go to sleep and it regains 80 energy will it be at 80 or will it be at 100? It will be at 100 is the answer unless that's also recently changed.

[worn nacelle]

This would be a great test

[heavy orbit]

so with the -energy.. 1 hour before my bedtime the gastly is now out of energy

if it charges to 80 again.. when i wake up tommorrow. that would mean - energy would loose you 1 hour of farm only

which is not to bad since you could swap to something else for 1 hour

i can report back tomorrow

[worn nacelle]

It means he's less productive the whole day as well

[heavy orbit]

how much it has after full sleep

[worn nacelle]

Hell bring about 0.3 less helps per hour for the 16 hours of the day

[heavy orbit]

that would be worst than -help speed

and on the other hand +energy would be better than help speed if that is true no?

[worn nacelle]

Unfortunately because +energy can't bring you over 100 as long as you get a full night's sleep it's not great either 😔

[heavy orbit]

i heard people wake up with more than 100

but i guess we need someone to confirm it tomorrow

[worn nacelle]

If you get a proc from a skill early you can go above 100

My larv started the day at 112 but that's because his main skill hit right at the beginning

[heavy orbit]

but if less energy also means less help would -energy not be the worst nature in the game

they really need to be more transparrent about what the stats actually do

so we can stop speculating

[tawny nova]

Question for discussion, with the energy changes, how is wigglytuff line not S Tier? It’s energy to every mon including itself. No rng required?

[hazy turtle]

bc it’s still unknown exactly how energy works

[worn nacelle]

-energy might be the worst but I'd guess -help could be worse as well, more data is needed and numbers need to be crunched

Yeah pretty much we just need more data

[hazy turtle]

-help is surely the worst

[worn nacelle]

We know the pokemon in s tier are amazing, the +energy mons I would guess could be the best late game but we won't know until we have more data. Can't put things in S on speculation alone 😅

[hazy turtle]

-energy at least can be solved with energy skill mons

[worn nacelle]

Yeah it's true although you'd be preventing yourself from going over 100. But we also don't know if that brings any value yet, just so many unknowns

[hazy turtle]

need more info on skill frequency as well

[final mason]

gonna be crazy if -speed of help goes from being F to S

[white cradle]

We need more information on if the % of energy you have effects your frequency because people are starting to assume that is the case again.
People are making a way bigger deal out of energy than necessary if that is not the case. Even if you have energy down and are at 80 after, that's only like, an hour or so during the day it collects less than usual because it'll only be at 0 for a little while. It is not that bad compared to something that just doesn't have a good frequency to begin with.

That kind of disadvantage is easily covered up by the energy skill 'mons and makes them situationally useful... but nowhere near S tier.

[hazy turtle]

testing this atm with two pokemon of the same level same frequency

i have 1 eevee at 80+ energy and another below 50

[white cradle]

Ok cool, I just also wanted to make sure nobody was being rash and making that assumption again because I've always doubted it strongly. I'm definitely open to it with evidence though

[hazy turtle]

past 2-3 hours it’s been pretty similar but very low sample size

[blissful mortar]

Honestly I think one thread that needs to be explored is the tapping bug could have been related to energy but it also could not have. Could have been like "oh energy wasn't affecting frequency with app open let's fix" but no idea. As everyone else said, need more testing

[worn nacelle]

I have a study in the other channel, it for sure affects it we just don't know by how much

[heavy orbit]

i can tell u 1 thing

my gastly had 0 energy for 1 hour

and still gathered the same ammount of berries as my others

so u still get things with 0 energy

[worn nacelle]

You definitely still get things it's just less

[heavy orbit]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/987344154843570237.gif?size=48&name=pepehmm&quality=lossless

[worn nacelle]

I can tell you one thing, my larvitar collected 0 things in one hour at 11% energy but in every other hour interval throughout the day every single other pokemon that I had collected at least one thing each hour

That's 75 data points where the only 0 collection was in the final lowest energy sample

[heavy orbit]

the best thing to test is if you have 0 pokemon of the same species and level with different energy

that would make things more clear

[worn nacelle]

https://discord.com/channels/1129035839398228028/1136667434741399582

The experiment for those who didn't see, the data is quite conclusive on whether or not it is a trend, less conclusive on how much, quantifiable speaking, it actually matters

[worn nacelle]

True but if you look at the first half of my experiment and the last half, that's essentially comparing the same Pokémon at >50 energy and at <50 energy and the results are quite clear

Every pokemon performed worse with less energy

[hazy turtle]

im reaching a similar conclusion

the drop from >50 energy to <50 energy is v noticeable

[worn nacelle]

Yeah im not sure if there's a break point somewhere or if it's linear, I'd guess linear but idk how to prove

[hazy turtle]

i’ll see tmrw

going to have 1 eevee start at 100 energy and another at 80

earlier it was at a similar rate though

[worn nacelle]

Yeah it ebbs and flows. I thought my experiment would fail as it went up for the first 3h but that's just variance

Thanks for testing, p sure I almost got divorced yesterday for putting so much time into tracking help 😂

[tawny nova]

You need a better partner who supports your meta gaming haha

For the cause!

[timid pollen]

Is there an early game their list

[warm smelt]

That's me btw

[warm smelt]

V10 has early game included

In pins

[astral veldt]

Where do you see it having early game included?

[loud radish]

the text in the pinned post mentions early game and stage 1 evos

[final mason]

[eternal socket]

Not sure if they copied it from here or some other discord but here’s something on Twitter

[torn whale]

They took one of the older versions and recreated it in my Sleep template 💀

[slate sky]

Ur famous now

[torn whale]

My first time using this twitter account and it's to start drama 💀

I reckon they saw that Reddit post, which gave no credit to the original creator i.e. me, and thought it was fine to do the same

Outright copying the list and cloning it with my new format is yikes behaviour
Not to mention putting their own watermark on it

[neat elk]

Both are still incorrect butterfree is a class on its own SS tier for me😁

[proven plume]

Should I just evolve the mons which are good on the list, or must I farm some good secondary skill or stat first?

how picky should I be?

[torn whale]

For specific helpers ask in #rate-my-mon-or-team. You do want at least some good sub skills (the earlier the unlock the better) and an optimal nature

[heavy orbit]

it only got to 80 again

from 0

also exp nature works now

from sleep i get 100 exp for full score

i have 2 with exp down

they get 82 exp instead

so the exp nature does now effect how much exp the pokemon gains every night

that means for early game +exp natures are not that bad anymore

not the best but a nice bonus until you have maxed out teams

[loud radish]

my wartortle energy recovery nature lasted waaaaaaay longer than the rest today

before running low

that might be one of the better natures now? if it's +20%, and there's a curve with frequency going down as energy goes down...energy is very valuable

that is assuming you don't sleep like crap and actually get 8.5 hours and all mons go to 100% energy regardless of bonus

[heavy orbit]

did the wart have more than 100 when you woke up?

or did it have more energy at the end of the day than others without the + nature

[loud radish]

it has energy recovery + as it's nature

so everyone got 80ish and it got 100

no skills proc that gave energy today

the nature is just that powerful

[torn whale]

Every mon gets to 100 for me without a +nature, so you either have the rest of your team with -energy or you didn't get a high sleep score

[loud radish]

oh yea my sleep score was poop, it's a crutch I guess for people that get bad scores. useful for me tho

or maybe useful for mid day naps to refresh energy ? or does it only proc on the main sleep

[heavy orbit]

all of my mons without the energy recovery got 100 today

they all where at 0

[loud radish]

you must have slept good then

[heavy orbit]

only my gastly had -energy and it had 80

yes i get the full 100 score most days

each point should give u 1%

so if you get 100 you get 100% and with energy down 80%

also if you nap.. and get like 30 score for the nap.. that gets deducted from the possible 100 and you could only get 70 at night.. you can't get more than 100 score a day

i do think if u only get 7 or 6 hours of sleep a night it should be worth

[warm smelt]

sorry if this has been awnsered, but is the positions within the tiers important?

[torn whale]

Yes

[warm smelt]

e.g butterfree above raichu currently in the S tier

ah, thank you

[torn whale]

That particular one could go either way. Butterfree has easier evo requirements while Raichu has slightly better base stats

Raichu needing a thunderstone is pretty rough

[warm smelt]

ah that's true

for some reason I only recently found a caterpie

[torn whale]

Ditto should prolly go below kanto starters, I'll fix that for next update

[warm smelt]

what are the odds of ditto dropping slowpoke tails?

[final mason]

It's a Lv30/60 ingredient and not a base right?

[torn whale]

It's about 1 in 3 odds of having it for either ingredient drop, 1 in 9 for both

[final mason]

What's Ditto's specialty?

[torn whale]

Ingredients

[final mason]

Ok, I was gonna say Slowbro/Slowking's ease of access compared to Ditto's rarity might make them worth it, but Ditto getting double Tail drops is kinds big

Cacao is a good starting ingredient at least

I still don't know what the concensus is on energy recovery so maybe Slowbro/Slowking skill is actually good (Energizing Cheer S)

[heavy orbit]

i kinda get all the S tiers.. except butterfree.. what makes it so good?

also about the energy pokemon keep gathering at 0 i know that since it tested yesterday. and someone actually said the more energy you have the better stuff you get and it can go above 100.. so energy might be one of the best skills.. at least the ones that boost the full team

[torn whale]

Early evo, really good base stats, good main skill that's made even better by getting an easy +2 levels

[loud canyon]

Are wigglytuff and sylveon on S tier because of their main skill (give energy to all mons)? Would having 2 of them in the same team still be a good combo?

nvm didnt see the latest ver lol

[heavy orbit]

i know it evolves early.. but itgathers mostly honey and lumberry.. at least early (until level 30). yes the skill is very good.

[lofty crow]

It gathers any ingredient you unlocked with the skill!

[heavy orbit]

lumbery is at least according to the spread sheats the worst berry tied with pamtre.. and honey isn't in any optimal recipee either

[torn whale]

Wdym honey's great

[heavy orbit]

so it gets u a lot of stuff.. but the stuff ain't that good

[torn whale]

It covers cheap recipes in both curries and deserts, while being one of the main ingredients for the endgame desert dish

[lofty crow]

Lets say you unlocked apple/milk/cacao and honey.
Your caterpie can drop all of them with a 25% chance. Drops 6 ingredients each time the skill proccs. Else it sometimes collects honey

[heavy orbit]

honey is basically only used in desserts

so if you have any of the other 2 your screwed

[warm smelt]

It's also used in curries

[heavy orbit]

i'm just going by the spreadsheet for that was posted by the optimal dishes

i know the skill is very good.. but thats about it imo

[torn whale]

A low value berry doesn't really matter, unboosted they're all within similar enough values for most of the game. Besides, bug is a very limited type, Caterpie is by far the most accessible and the other options are really rare

[heavy orbit]

i guess i can see that it's the most accessible bug pokemon don't really see how it is better than lets say Charizard but i guess tier lists are subjective

just saying for comparisson. charizard has the same skill.. a better berry and the ingredient. is used in all 3 optimal dishes of all 3 types of food

don't see how butterfree can keep up or be better

[torn whale]

To begin with ingredients aren't even the focus of the line. Even then honey is the starting ingredient, and early on it's enough to carry weeks. The other two drops are common across all dish types, at all stages of the game

[heavy orbit]

yes but i do the charizard butterfree comparisson because they serve the same purpose

basically

and i just don't see how butterfree is better

[final mason]

Honey is used in a lot of high end desserts

[torn whale]

No not at all, they're two different specialties

Charizard's probably the worst of the kanto starters, not a single one of its ingredients are involved in endgame recipes

[heavy orbit]

the spreadsheet for optimal recipees says bean sausage momoo milk and fancy apple would be the best though

because you could use them in all 3 types of food

[rancid umbra]

They need to standardize all nature buffs/nerfs to 10%. -20% energy at the start of the day is 💀.

[torn whale]

Ah that's using all 3 at the same time. You can use them both individually and in pairs for each category

[heavy orbit]

i can see butterfree being good on bug week that is also dessert

i can see it being S tier there

but if you don't get bug week or the other 2 dishes it seems not that great to me

[final mason]

Charizard's niche is x2 bean sausage

[torn whale]

Yeah unlike the other two starters it drops off once you're able to cook with a much larger pot

[final mason]

It's used in far less recipes than honey

[heavy orbit]

bean saussage is basically used everywhere except desserts

[final mason]

Actually that's a lie, it's used in more low end recipes than honey is

[torn whale]

Exclusively for low-end recipes more like

[heavy orbit]

but than your saying butterfree is an early game pokemon which focusses on late game food

which is more contradicting

[torn whale]

You've misunderstood it sounds like

[torn whale]

^

[heavy orbit]

you mean honey?

[torn whale]

I've been showing both early and endgame usage for it

[torn whale]

No on this comment, which is not the point I'm making

[heavy orbit]

i just don't see how it can keep up with the other evolutions.. yes it will take "longer" because butterfree evolves much earlier.. but thats about it.

[lofty crow]

Honey is definitely not the best ingredient but it can be used early. And mainly deserts.
Sausage is a better ingredient generally speaking imo.
If butterfree would be a ingredient focused mon like charizard it would be below char i think, or same value. Early evolution is still great.

[torn whale]

The stage you're talking about is something we're a month, if not several months away from. I explained yesterday how I've been pushing away from tiering for one specific point of the game to make things more inclusive. Butterfree is great at every stage of the game, performance being backed by several users' gameplay and testing.

[heavy orbit]

i know it's focused on berries.. but bug berry is the worst. imo it really shines in bug dessert weeks.. but if u have any other week it's mediocre but has also a great skill.. but i just don't see how it's the best of all pokemon.. it seems more niche to me even if it's the best in it's niche

[lofty crow]

And butterfrees frequency x berryvalue x2 does keep up with late evolution mons like walrein and slaking.

[torn whale]

I disagree, sausage has no usage at all in higher cost recipes

[warm smelt]

idc how bad my Pokémon is, a shiny will be on the team no matter WHAT

[lofty crow]

Looking at your cooking pot, i can tell you most of the time you can not cook those high end dishes

Pot size 15-24 is doable every day. Not now but midgame. The high end recipts are only useable on sunday most of the time, so dont value them too strongly

[torn whale]

Of course not, you don't even have a large enough pot to sustain it. Waido's argument is Zard is better for late game when you have access to all evos, which if anything it's worse at that point compared to other ingredient starters

[heavy orbit]

no i don't argue zard is better late game.. i argue at the point where u can evolve it to zard it's better

because it takes until level 28? if i'm not wrong to get a zard

[lofty crow]

I see. I was talking generally. Not towards a specific point in time. Char late game might fall off a little and butterfree may gain some value

[torn whale]

Again, berry base values hardly matter when comparisons get flipped on their head by weekly faves. Even if both lum and yache were there, I'd much rather use Butterfree over Altaria as the former's stats are so much better

[heavy orbit]

i guess my point to sum it up is.. it gives you very niche materials.. honey and the bug berry.. and i don't see how that justifies it being the best pokemon in the game

thats what i'm trying to bring across

[heavy orbit]

i love you for that xD

[final mason]

#TeamHoney 😔✊

[torn whale]

And my rebuttal is honey is more consistent of an ingredient across the whole game than sausage, lum berry's low value is hardly a downside with such good base stats (if anything being a niche berry makes it better), and there's nothing else that is good as early on while staying relevant the whole way

[heavy orbit]

it's ok.. i'll leave you with your honey alone

[final mason]

What about Butterfree vs Venusaur?

[torn whale]

Different roles ofc, but Venu has really great ingredients. Potato and tomato are great, both far better than what Zard's stuck with

It does take a while till it can access those, but once it does huge stonks

[heavy orbit]

stop hating on zard.. i didn't even wanna make him the bar to compare too.. i coulda picked any other of the S tiers.. since i personally think they are all better than the bug

[torn whale]

https://tenor.com/view/no-i-dont-think-i-will-captain-america-old-capt-gif-17162888

[heavy orbit]

https://tenor.com/view/pokemon-ash-ketchum-charizard-flamethrower-gif-4322682

just because your zard doesn't listen to you

[torn whale]

https://tenor.com/view/charizard-pokemon-charizard-falls-down-gets-up-gif-23435027

[heavy orbit]

ok that out of the way.. i actually think it's a good idea to make tier lists for the different islands at some point

since the next islands are all "fixed"

meaning the current tierlist is kinda only "true" for greengrass isle

[minor kraken]

fiery herb is great too tho

(zard)

[torn whale]

Too early for that I reckon, most users are still trying to get off the ground

[heavy orbit]

yes but when most people switch or are about to switch

[minor kraken]

i guess im biased towards fiery herb because i've been using gastly since day 1 pretty much

[final mason]

Gastly gets guaranteed x2 fiery herb, char has a chance of not even rolling it

[torn whale]

Besides the only change is berries. It's not worth making 3 more copies of the list just to bump some mons above the rest

[minor kraken]

fair enough

i forgot how good the grass berry is

isnt it the second best one?

[heavy orbit]

but berry strength is double

[torn whale]

It makes more sense to look up what types are favourited for that island, and just pick matching mons from what you own

[heavy orbit]

so berry mons with the right berry get so much more rp

[obtuse loom]

Join the Mathcord, we'll find a place for you to publish your tier list in a more formal fashion

Instead of just "in a discord thread" it can be "on sleep-db"

So it's easier to combat and update

[torn whale]

Sounds good, where shall I post it?

[final mason]

[obtuse loom]

I can make a channel for you atm

Make it more accessible

[torn whale]

Kk

[final mason]

Is that a public or private channel?

[obtuse loom]

Public

[final mason]

👏

[obtuse loom]

We have a publishing channel now

[humble juniper]

I noticed dodrio is S tier. Worth using a master biscuit on if it appears?

[lofty crow]

Sausage team 👍

[torn whale]

No. In the long run it's better to catch a Doduo and evolve it

[humble juniper]

Thanks

[final mason]

A Dodrio evolved from a Doduo will have a +5 carry limit compared to a Dodrio caught as is

[rancid umbra]

Until a legendary/mythical appears, I can not see a good use for the master biscuit.

[humble juniper]

Good to know, I'll hold on to it in later hopes

[light gust]

It might be worth using master biscuit on the no-evolution pokemon

They all require 16 friendship points to befriend which is kinda hard to get to since they are rare pokemon and can get full easily with regular biscuits

[rancid umbra]

In the long run it might be more useful to spend sleep points on more biscuits to allow for a more robust team that can be used now and for the foreseeable future.

[flat cliff]

Would a master on a ditto be best?

[light gust]

I used my initial first week bonus of +600 each day on a master biscuit and I'm saving it for a Ditto or an Absol

[rancid umbra]

Again I would only use a master on a legendary

4k sleep points is 40 days of points for free play.

[light gust]

Do we know if legendaries will be hard to catch? Cause they might just be guaranteed with events or something

[rancid umbra]

We do not know...however seeing as the rest of the game is very resource intensive I would be pretty suprised if legendaries are insta-catches.

They way I can see it work is the legendary will appear for a period of time. It will have 30 bars and you will encounter it at a reasonable rate to potentially catch it with many days worth of attempts. Once you catch it, it will not appear any longer. If you fail to catch it after the period expires, it will not appear until another event takes place.

[lyric cliff]

My assumption is, events will last for a week or two, each day has a chance to spawn the legendary in the morning

The next thing that might occur is that it will have roughly 1/3 more friendship than an evolved mon

And can realistically be caught with luck or with Master Biscuits

That is, if they plan to rerun events

Id imagine the allure of legendaries would run a bit thin if everyone was guaranteed one, sadly

[final mason]

most games like this repeat events so new players who didnt start on day 1 have a chance to catch them later

[light gust]

That's fair

I personally just feel like the no evolution mons are rare enough to find that at this point in the game they're probably the most worth mons to use master biscuit on, and since legendaries might take a while to come to the game I feel like by then I won't be using my non-bonus biscuits on regular mon anymore

Like, I've been looking for an absol since the game launched, I toss and turn in my sleep so much that I've been getting nothing but dozing styles but still haven't seen it

[final mason]

yea eventually long time players will reach a point where its not worth it to biscuit a caterpie

i think just stockpiling biscuits after you get the essentials and replacing bad mons with potentially new ones is what youll be using most biscuits on after like.. 3 months of play or so

[light gust]

Yeah, like personally once I get one of each berry specialist + magnemite for belue berry I'll only be using my biscuits to replace mons in my box that have a speed of help- nature

[final mason]

and, the mons retaining their friendship gauge if they get full before you befriend them the next time you see them is nice

[light gust]

definitively

[neat elk]

Just follow my thread here and prove you why #1135459507959496802 I'm gathering a potential butterfree team on my berries team

You underestimate the early high limit and sub 50min frequency of a level 8 butterfree

Whether be negative help of speed or not

Ss tier for me

And at least 8 free ingredients at level

[vernal orbit]

i'm running 3 metapod 1 pika 1 squirtle

the ingredients you get is rly great

for a berry team

so you don't have to switch teams to get ingredients for your lunchs

[hazy turtle]

energy doesn’t go down during sleep and 100% affects production rate even during sleep as well

getting a +energy all skill proc before sleep isnt even bad

+energy skill mons might be A tier

[torn whale]

They've already moved up there in v11, which I posted in the mathcord announcements

[hazy turtle]

oh. i just checked the latest pins in this thread

[visual cosmos]

Is this another discord? Is there an invite link anywhere?

[torn whale]

It's in #server-announcements

[visual cosmos]

Thank you!

I googled it first and ended up in the Unite discord lol

[final mason]

yea theres one of those too

[tardy knoll]

If I make an article on screenrant about this would you be alright if I quoted you in it? Is there a reddit post of this to link it?

@torn whale

[torn whale]

I'm doing the latest updates to it via Sleep Mathcord now. It'd be nice if you referenced there too as some interesting research going on

[tardy knoll]

Yeah I can totally do that

Just thought I would let you know before diving into an article on a clickbaity site

[torn whale]

Tyty

[worn nacelle]

Lol and it's not even an early game tier list, feel like the magnemite line is unusable until we get big enough ingredient gatherers 😂

[odd berry]

I have a basically PERFECT magnemite

and it pisses me off because I can't use it

I can't even fill up my good camp ticket pots yet

[worn nacelle]

I have quite a good mag too and I keep having to bench it for random mons I'm gonna transfer because I can't support the extra pot size 😂

The pot size stacks btw if you get multiple procs, +14 this morning drained my ingredients but also hit an extra tasty, I wonder if extra tasty is based on number of ingredients?

[hazy turtle]

hmm that's interesting

i also had a +7 ingred proc and had an extra tasty this morning

[torn whale]

Oh btw was that your research post on energy and helping speed on Reddit? How much do you think Sylveon and Wigglytuff benefit from that?

[odd berry]

I got extra tasty without even filling my pot all the way tho

I think I put 15 ingredients into a pot size of 27

[wraith inlet]

I'm using a good camp ticket with magnemite and two ingredient pokemon and I still have 63 ingredients after lunch today. But Sunday will destroy that.

[loud radish]

so I tried asking yesterday but I'm not sure what's giving squirtle the bonus energy. he was at zero before bed like everyone else . screenshots taken right now 30 mins after wakeup

did he maybe level up and get bonus energy?

[hazy turtle]

does everyone else have energy down?

[loud radish]

everyone but wartort has nothing that affects it

he has bonus +

[hazy turtle]

hmm then idk. leveling up doesnt give bonus energy though. my eevee went from level 2 to 3 but only got energy from sleep points

[loud radish]

hidden natures??

[wraith inlet]

How much energy is he at now versus the others?

And what did you regain this morning?

[loud radish]

82 vs 65 for others

sleep score was 83 or somethin

wait

[hazy turtle]

the other pokemon have energy down then

[loud radish]

THE OTHER 3 ALL HAVE ENERGT RECOFERHLY DOWN

[vernal orbit]

lol

you figured it

[loud radish]

wow I didn't expect my other 3 team members to all have the same freaking nature lmao

[wraith inlet]

Hidden nature: user error 😅

[worn nacelle]

Yeah haha, I'm not exactly sure on numbers though, would have to do some math and get some more data first. Could be significant though

[torn whale]

Oh yeah you mentioned Magnezone, that might be going down a tier since it doesn't really feel as powerful as the other S tiers. Competes with Raichu for a thunderstone too

[loud radish]

💧

[worn nacelle]

Yeah feels like it would be good ultra late but I'm struggling to figure out how to level it there in the first place 😅

[rancid umbra]

Thanks for the update! I think Sudo is atleast B tier and Wigly can be really good especially if you have mons with er-.

I am going to file a complaint against the er- nerf. I can see a 10% decrease but 20 percent?! Starting the day with 80% is game breaking.

[final mason]

Sudo isn't any higher bc it competes against Flaaffy, who can still evolve

[torn whale]

More like it fails to 😜

[modest marsh]

wait, nature effects more than sub skills, even golden ones? is it for all the cases like skill trigger?

[obtuse loom]

What do you mean?

[modest marsh]

i mean skills like energy recovery bonus only give 12% increases. unfavorable nature give 20%. then what about the help bonus (5%) vs help speed decrease and skill trigger s/m vs main skill chance decrease.

[hazy turtle]

energy subskill applies to all pokemon

same with gold help bonus

so the subskills outweight the effects of 1 nature

[modest marsh]

ty

[odd berry]

THE ENERGY RECOVERY NERF IS NOT THAT BAD.

I went to sleep with a -energy chikorita that had 12% left. I had an Energy Recovery Bonus on my Squirtle and I got a sleep score of 98. I woke up with 100% energy

[ivory zodiac]

Has anyone considered the role Marowak fills?

• You can't have a full team of ingredient gatherers
• Double favorite berries are a good alternative to ingredient
• Hollow has a fix favorite berry types
• The only Berry specialist that has a favorite berry type of the Hollow snorlax is Marowak

Or typhlsion

Or however you spell it

[odd berry]

considering it now... considering 15%.... considering 50%... considering 99%... considering complete
marowak could be useful on taupe hollow

[ivory zodiac]

All I'm saying is it's niche but important. Knowing what i know now I wish I infocused on cubone more in my first week

[lunar current]

Marowak is on my list for the Figy Berry and Warming Ginger.

[heavy orbit]

idk if someone tested it or knows how.. does energy +/- also impact the energy skills? like if you have a skill that gives 12 energy would it give more/less

[hazy turtle]

my energy down wobb gives 12 energy to itself vs 14, so +/- energy does affect energy regained via skills

[heavy orbit]

thank you.. does it give 12 to every1 or just to itself? basically does it effect energy gained or the skill

[hazy turtle]

wob skill only affects a single mon at random

should only impact energy gained

[heavy orbit]

yeah but i mean if it triggers on someone else does it give 14

or does it give 12 to the others too

[vernal orbit]

self skill = 12
skill to 1 random mon = 14

@heavy orbit

[heavy orbit]

ok

well than pokemon with energy skills and +energy nature are probably not that bad

i was thinking energy + is one of the worst natures because if you get full score you would always get full energy.. but if it affects skills certain pokemon wouldn't be too bad with it

[stone monolith]

So like if you had a Wigglytuff who buffed other people's energy with Skills... I don't think ++Energy Nature would give more Energy to other pokemon in your team if that's what you're thinking.

However... If you're a Napper and you don't do 1 big full sleep ++Energy Nature is very very beneficial.

[heavy orbit]

for wobofet maybe not.. but if u take any pokemon that has charge energy S. like doduo.. it would always give itself more energy

because with skills you can go over 100 too

so it's not entirely "wasted" energy

[stone monolith]

Yes - And you can go above 100% - But i dont know if it's known that it provides any extra benefit to speed / frequency though.

[heavy orbit]

well if u have more than 100 it will take longer to reach 0

[stone monolith]

I suppose it just likely means they maintain a higher pace throughout the day meaning a net positive and increased gather rates for longer period of the day = more net Snorlax Strength

[heavy orbit]

0 doesn't matter because the pokemon still gather.. but i imagine if you would have 20 all night you would gather more than if you had 0 all night. because the energy charges when you wake up

so basically you will have more energy at night when you sleep

[heavy orbit]

yeah basically this is what i mean

[stone monolith]

Cool - On the same page then 👍

[wraith inlet]

Also consider, if your pokemon ends the day above 100 energy because of some nice skill buffs there is no downside to switching it out overnight if you want to have a different pokemon recover energy besides the overnight help

So it sort of gives you a nice buffer spot to maintain energy levels across more pokemon

[worn nacelle]

Might be missing something but after looking over the eeveelutions, why is vaporeon A tier?

[stone monolith]

Likely in-line with the logic that ingredient magnet is strong, but i think it'd be outclassed by the Squirtle family ingredients-wise...

It's a carbon copy of potential ingredients, list, but... It does have 'Skill' specialty going for it vs. the Squirtle Family being "Ingredients" focused.

It's the only "Water" based "Skill" unit with that Main Skill

[worn nacelle]

It's an ingredient magnet pokemon that doesn't get 2 berries or 2 ingredients, it seems like outclassed for everything? Are we sure skill pokemon proc skills more?

I was under the impression that all pokemon got ingredients and skill procs at the same rate. Berry pokemon had 2 berries, ingredient pokemon had 2 ingredients, and skill pokemon had access to stronger unique skills like cooking pot, strength M, cheer etc

But I could be wrong

[stone monolith]

I think "Skill Specialists" have a greater chance at skill procs, but I can't say i have any data to back that up.

[worn nacelle]

Yeah I keep seeing people say it but never see any studies etc. My magnemite only procs marginally more, maybe even less than my Pikachu and it even has a main skill nature

So anecdotally I haven't seen a difference but that's obviously not a fact

[idle oracle]

I hope data mining will soon bring clarity on this

[modest marsh]

my lvl 10 bonsly with skill trigger M has been slacking for 2 days

while doduo triggers her skill 3 times in the morning

[worn nacelle]

But honestly if there isn't a difference I feel like vaporeon should be F tier haha

As the worst ingred magnet in the game

[minor kraken]

to be fair to vaporeon it also has the potential to roll cacao which is a really good ingredient

[worn nacelle]

Also I feel like energy going over 100 is a bug. Every once in a while (when fed or maybe app closes) energy goes back down to 100

My bellsprout was at 112 when everyone else was at 100, now he's at 96 when everyone else is at 93

[stone monolith]

Hmm good spot… that could be…

[worn nacelle]

Would devalue energy gains again but not enough for them to be bad, do we have concrete data about snapshotting energy when you go to sleep? Did someone test with a high and low energy mon?

[minor kraken]

do you mean nature wise or?

[worn nacelle]

Sorry I meant main skill

Because then morning procs would be a waste

Unless you had energy down 👀

[minor kraken]

if a pokemon could get turboboosted by going over 100% it could be interesting

[warm smelt]

https://www.reddit.com/r/PokemonSleep/comments/15izew4/automatic_berryfeeding_during_sleep_seems_unfair/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1

Have you guys seen this yet?

[minor kraken]

Makes sense tbh

It is how overflow is currently perceived with the power only coming from berries

[worn nacelle]

Yep inventory up is actually quite nice for ingredient pokemon

[minor kraken]

imo berry down nature on a good ingredient pokemon isnt too bad especially for cases like this

[stone monolith]

You mean Help Speed-? Would be curious whether it boosts Inventory Up sub-skills value for Ingredient finders… so many factors though

[minor kraken]

berry finding down

help speed down just a bad nature imo

[stone monolith]

There is no Berry Finding Down unless you mean Ingredient Finding Down.

[minor kraken]

heh am i deluded

appears so

yeah you're right im just wrong about thinking berry down

[stone monolith]

Help Speed Down sucks in general, but you would at least ensure you kept what you found for primary Ingredient Finders… I just don’t ever see Speed down being good for anything lol

[minor kraken]

ima be honest i genuinely thought berry down was a possible neg nature

[torn whale]

Eevee teams have been putting in work from other users' testing. It's a great source of high value ingredients and would only get better as you unlock more. I do agree ingredient mons with the skill are better and that's why they're higher

[void cloud]

Wouldn’t speed down also lower ingredient collection rate too pretty much making it almost always bad

[worn nacelle]

Interesting, I can agree eevee in general is great but I feel like I'd be building a sylv/jolt/esp far before a vape

[torn whale]

Perhaps. Way I see it Vaporeon is an extension of Eevee unlike the others

[hazy turtle]

i definitely notice a major difference in skill procs

2 eevees 1 ghastly 2 diglett team
past 2 days
5 eevee skill procs
1 ghastly skill proc
0 diglett skill proc

both eevees + 1 diglett have +main skill nature everyone else has neutral nature regarding skill

it’s hard to test exact percentages bc energy/frequency play a significant part in a skill proccing

[heady sigil]

Why is persian better than raticate and slaking?

[vernal orbit]

cat > rat or monkey
that's all

[heavy orbit]

You also get this if you don't sleep.. if u haven't touched the game for half the day and log in you also get that.. I don't know but there has to be more testing on that.. if it actually auto feeds and you don't loose out on clicking. Than carry limit is kinda pointless?

[worn nacelle]

Dang you got me curious and I looked up some of the normal types, raticate isn't as bad as I thought! It seems all normal types are kinda bad

[heavy orbit]

Slacking pre evolution might be better than the main

Like vigoroth gathers faster than slacking

[worn nacelle]

Yeah I saw that too

But it only gathers as fast as raticate with a much smaller carry

Are we sure slaking shouldn't be below raticate on the list?

[torn whale]

It has ingredient helper which is a massive plus

Arguably the best skill out of all berry specialists

[heavy orbit]

I wonder though if evolving to slaking would be a downgrade

[worn nacelle]

I guess I'm not sold on magnet, charge energy would help raticate collect berries at a much faster rate (its base speed is higher) and carry limit means more ingredients overnight

[heavy orbit]

It sure looks like it

[worn nacelle]

Yeah besides carry capacity it just looks worse unless I'm missing something or there are hidden multipliers etc

[heavy orbit]

Do we know of the capacity even matters

Like if your capped it seems like Snorlax get auto fed what is spilling over

Although it might just still be buggy

[odd berry]

wtf

evolving vigoroth is a straight downgrade

[final mason]

carry limit might be more important for ingredient specialists? idk what happens to ingredients if youre full, does it just keep them and only find berries afterward and feed them to snorlax?

[heavy orbit]

I can tell in the morning when everyone spills over my ingredient mons drop like almost just ingredients

[worn nacelle]

I feel like it just tosses them but I have no proof

I've had ingredient specialists only bring berries in the morning

[heavy orbit]

Might be low sample size but people should take a look on it

[final mason]

[worn nacelle]

I think it fills like normal and then once full berries go to snorlax, ingredients get junked

[heavy orbit]

Maybe it feeds the Berries in the bag until there is just ingredients.. but it seems like it is more important for ingredients

[worn nacelle]

Otherwise there would be no point for carry capacity

[heavy orbit]

This is what I'm trying to bring across.. it seems like to me there is no point

Unless you don't play daily xD

[final mason]

if ingredients get junked thats kinda...

[heavy orbit]

Well we really need the devs to be a bid more open about mechanics

Labbing all of those things is kinda a hustle

[worn nacelle]

It's almost certain ingredients get junked I think

They don't contribute to the snorlax strength and the ratio seems similar to what I find throughout the day. They don't replace berries in the inventory because people have reported odd numbers of ing on mornings and both would replace

Actually yeah, no other option makes sense, they have to get junked

[heavy orbit]

I guess either way for non ingredient mons the carry limit seems less impactful

[final mason]

i guess it depends on how long you sleep/how often you check for drops

[heavy orbit]

Honestly.. for a berry gatherer especially with low carry limit.. speed of help + and ingredients - might be the best nature

[worn nacelle]

Idk I'm psyched for my rat to evolve, I'm always short on apples and I'm sure like 4 get tossed every night, it definitely would add up

[heavy orbit]

My Pichu gives me enough apples

[worn nacelle]

Especially because for desserts the only recipies I can make are apples 😅

[heavy orbit]

I'm kinda pissed.. my Pichu has triple apple

I wish one of them was eggs

[worn nacelle]

I'm running Pikachu rat and one more apple gatherer and it's not enough apples haha

Idk triple apple might not be bad, it's used in a lot of dishes, even late game, and there isn't a pokemon that can reliably get a bunch

[heavy orbit]

But I'm. Not going back I'll evolve that.. it has good skills and is shiny..

But low-key the rolls on the ingredients matter probably ones u get them high enough

Yeah I would be fine with double apple.
But my team doesn't have egg gatherer

So for my personal squad Pichu with egg and apple would be best

[worn nacelle]

Yeah I thought I was fine with my bellsprout but I looked and it didn't get the leek roll 😔

[heavy orbit]

It won't matter until lvl 30

Probably when we get there the meta changed again

[worn nacelle]

Yeah but I'm not really switching teams, trying to keep everyone for the long haul. Imo switching for favored berries might help in the short term but will hurt long term progress

[heavy orbit]

It's kinda steep.. level 10 u unlock in the first week which is the first milestone.. but 25 for second skill and 30 seems so long away

Yeah I personally have a 4 fixed team and 1 maybe be a switcher slot

[worn nacelle]

Yeah the gap from 10-25 seems huge. Hopefully there are some evolutions in the middle

[heavy orbit]

Probably makes Gengar even better

[vernal orbit]

when I see larvitar Evo at 23

[heavy orbit]

It evolves at 19 the Gastly and if u have the link cord u could evolve again

But I really feel like the sleep exp needs to get buffed

Or we will reach 100 or let alone 50 next year

😂

Rip for those who have golden skills at 50 75 and 100

[vernal orbit]

sleep XP at 10 or 25 seems to be rly strong

[heavy orbit]

Wait you get more when you are higher level

To me I get consistent 100 for all and they are not the same level

[torn whale]

I'll reconsider Raticate and Slaking's placements, problem is the latter's missing ingredients on Serebii

[worn nacelle]

Yeah and the exp per level for larv is insane...

[vernal orbit]

what do you mean ?

[worn nacelle]

I'll check from the other thread what they've found on these

Every pokemon has a different exp per lvl up

[vernal orbit]

:0

[stone monolith]

His general growth curve is slow just like the main games.

Takes more per level than other species

[worn nacelle]

If was over 400 exp for lvl 10-11

Slaking looks like tomato then honey?, unknown if there is a 3rd

[torn whale]

Yeah I was sorely mistaken about Slaking. It just might be the worst evo line in the game, Raticate's taking its former place

[heavy orbit]

i think vigoroth is better

don't look at slaking.. the pre evolution should be better

[torn whale]

I agree, but they're both so bad I can't be bothered to replace the sprite with Vigoroth

[stone monolith]

They should have given him some super buff if he was going to be so slow.

[heavy orbit]

i mean it is true to the main series

where his passive makes him unusable xD

[magic cliff]

Y is slaking worst?

[minor kraken]

his frequency decreases after evolving from vigoroth

[idle oracle]

makes sense tbh

[magic cliff]

Traunt 🤣

[warm smelt]

I feel like v11 is going to make the tier list look completely different

Flipped even

[tawny nova]

Why so?

[warm smelt]

I feel it

I think that's proof enough

[worn nacelle]

Yeah I didn't realize slaking was so bad, wtf, seems like a mistake to even evolve vig now

[blissful mortar]

Slaking is a weird one yah

[red orbit]

Yeah, Vigoroth seems like the right call. Give vigoroth a main skill seed and you have a slaking with the only downside being 5 less capacity...

[rancid umbra]

Without recovery bonus you wake up with 80% at best.

[odd berry]

recovery bonus is only a 12.5% modifier, how do you figure?

[rancid umbra]

Er- is -20%

Most mons use all their energy in a day.

0 + 100 - 100*(1-.20) = 80

[obtuse loom]

based

[odd berry]

really? it's 11:52 pm here, and my mons have 17% remaining

my bedtime is 1 AM but I often start my sleep sessions anywhere between that at 12:30

so that's like, 10% minimum

1 AM to 9:45 AM, very consistently high sleep scores

where are you losing the rest of your energy

[worn nacelle]

So the next morning your pokemon will go to 90, then instead of being at 10 when you go to sleep they'll be at 0. Then the morning after they'll be at 80 and will never get back to 100 with normal use