Azul's Helper Pokémon Tier List

[torn whale]

Here's version 1 of the list, made it earlier today, <t:1690405200:D>

[woven ingot]

Could you also include non evolved pokemon?

[torn whale]

That could make things pretty long given the 200 or so count it'd become

[woven ingot]

Maybe two versions then

[torn whale]

And the differences are very marginal outside of Eevee, only the base stats differ

[cunning scaffold]

Why is Charizard below Blastoise and Venasaur if it has a better frequency than both of them and has the same skill and specialty?

[wise junco]

energy for everyone so highly, does a 90+ sleep actually not refill everyone enough?

[torn whale]

Because of the ingredients pool. Blastiose and Venusaur have certain ones that no other ingredient class mon has

[torn whale]

Being able to restore energy throughout the day is massive, as it keeps the production rate of berries and ingredients high. With the right multipliers from subskills and nature, it has gamebreaking potential

[cunning scaffold]

oo is that confirmed, regarding the production rate being tied to a pokemons energy? I thought it just stopped if it reached 0 but other than that, there wasnt a penalty

[wise junco]

kinda avoiding the question, are you saying a 90+ sleep doesn't restore enough?

because if it does restore enough, any energy restoration is useless unless you have trouble sleeping

[wise junco]

but yea i was under that impression too

[torn whale]

Moot point imo, the problem the main skill's meant to address is having low energy during the day

[mortal maple]

I guess its if you dont hit it due to work or swap mons out for certain things.

[torn whale]

There's a significantly lower rate in berry and ingredient gain yes

[mortal maple]

I am still wondering if slowbro/king arent listed too high because its only for 1 pokemon and random

[neat elk]

Try waiting for about an hour for berries type pokemon after you've slept and you can see the difference

[wise junco]

the point is, lower rate with a low energy or with a fully depleted energy?

[rose meteor]

Has it been confirmed? I am very curious

[wise junco]

fully depleted i understand

[torn whale]

Especially for some of the later recipes that take 50+ ingredients, ways to grant a consistent flow is essential for late game

[torn whale]

It's a gradient, rate decreases as energy decreases

[wise junco]

is that confirmed for sure?

did someone do some tests that can be linked

[torn whale]

Not datamined yet afaik, but gameplay definitely shows this decrease

[rose meteor]

They definitely still pick up berries and ingredients when depleted, seem slower but can't tell if it is significant

[wise junco]

yea but when depleted it's expected and nobody is questioning

partially depleted i'd want to see more data though

[rose meteor]

The main skill trigger is so random too, can't rely on Energy recovery skill either

[torn whale]

Don't have any links outside of my own gameplay sadly. I've been testing with swablu and doduo, which give the same berry counts, at different energy levels throughout the day

[rose meteor]

Personally I still don't see the use of energy restore at the moment besides maybe Jigglypuff gives everyone extra energy

[torn whale]

Only have a couple day's worth and nowhere near enough data to show a reliable trend. That'd take either several players (which I don't have the resources to coordinate), or datamining the formulae the game uses for this

Which again, don't have the resources

[wise junco]

#general message

[torn whale]

My experience says otherwise. But again needs a much wider player sample to generate anything reliable

Do you know how many variables they controlled while testing? Such as mon category, energy difference, item drops etc.?

[rose meteor]

At the moment RP is mostly generated by berries. I think when we hit mid point of the game ingredients gathering will be more with higher level unlock 5 6 even 7 ingredients

[rose meteor]

No I don't have any of those yet, no one does

[torn whale]

I was asking about that Salty comment that was linked to

[wise junco]

yea it's hard to know for sure, it just seems like the simpler implementation to have it only matter when it's 0

[torn whale]

Also everything I said there was info perfectly visible in a mon's summary?

[rose meteor]

I appreciate you doing this Azulyter, very interesting graph. Makes me want to make one myself

[blissful mortar]

I'm curious about the disparity between blast/venu and charizard. They all do the same things just different types/items

unless i'm missing something

[cunning scaffold]

they said charizard was ranked lower cuz of its items

[torn whale]

@blissful mortar

[blissful mortar]

mmm i see

is zard still better than the others in its ingredient class?

[torn whale]

Venusaur is the only ingredients class with honey, while Blastoise has Moomoo Milk and one more I can't remember

[obtuse loom]

I'm actually working rn on solving all these numbers

So if y'all would like to know more I'd greatly appreciate help

[cunning scaffold]

imo its a bit too early to have an accurate tier list

[blissful mortar]

Well qrill i'm always down to help

[torn whale]

I'd say so yeah, ingredients finder is really helpful given its class

[mortal maple]

Im up to help ya

[blissful mortar]

Are you doing data on mathcord by any chance?

[obtuse loom]

I'm making a Guide Channel rn for people to help add

[obtuse loom]

Lmao, I'm pulling a Mathcord rn, but from the ground up here

Might make a Sleep Mathcord lmfao

[mortal maple]

ping me if you need help finding things out

I dont mind feeding data XD

(cant buy items atm due to a bug)

[obtuse loom]

#1133872623898603651

[torn whale]

Sorry for the late reply. If I were to do this it'd look basically the same with every mon at its lower evo. The only differences are minor things like carry capacity and helping speed

[obtuse loom]

#1133872623898603651

[torn whale]

@woven ingot missed ping

[woven ingot]

Alright, thanks for making this 🙂

[torn whale]

If I were to rank Jolteon and Arcanine with what I learned they'd be at least B. The main skill seems very promising

[mortal maple]

would make jolteon and arcanine with helping speed a good pkmn to have.
and pkmns that need its support to have helping bonus

[torn whale]

I'll be honest still haven't figured out what helping speed actually does

[mortal maple]

arcanine/growlithe/jolteon can help a pkmn produce X times if i understand it correctly.

[torn whale]

You'd think it means finding items faster, but if that's the case why have ingredient finder and berry finder as sub skills too?

[torn whale]

The part I don't get is smth else, it's the helping speed. As in the time shown for each mon

[blissful mortar]

Ingredient skills and berry skills are seperate from your inventory cap or whatever

so if you can hold 14 berries and then your skill pops you get 20 when you collect them all

Unless I'm missunderstanding the convo

[mortal maple]

i guess skills trigger on collection and wont influence the inventory

(inventory of the pkmn)

[blissful mortar]

ye

[torn whale]

Here's the list, kinda got buried and I don't have pin perms #1133866288771518566 message

One mistake I just noticed is Slowking was meant to be above Slowbro, it has objectively better stats for some reason

Prolly bc of the more expensive evo cost

[blissful mortar]

Can you even find wild slowking?

I went and checked. Not on green grass but it will be in cyan at master 2+

[torn whale]

Another thing to note: I don't think any of the helper mons are outright bad, just that some of the lower tier ones may be less optimized than others

[blissful mortar]

Hmmmm actually if you are stacking helper bonuses sub skill later on you should burn through energy fast right? Helper bonus jigglypuffs could be a really good angle or even backbone to the playstyle if it ends up being a legitimate strat

Too early to tell lategame jiggly line viability though with that

[weak hamlet]

I know someone asked this before but the energy mons being in S tier is very confusing to me. I've done no math but epseon giving 800 snorlax power on each activation seems way more beneficial than sylvion giving extra energy to some pokemon when they are only half depleted. Not to mention if the energy skill activates at the beginning of the day it does nothing because everyone is at full energy anyways

[blissful mortar]

It theoretically scales really well when I look at numbers for people that collect consistently throughout the day with optimized teams but nobodies there so I can't actually say for certain. Idk why they are up high on the tier list I would probably put them in not enough data for most of the energy mons. I think self energy mons are probably the worse though unless they magically have amazing frequency and double berries or something

[obtuse loom]

We do need to find out what energy depletion actually does

[rose meteor]

Agree 💯% not enough data. I got so excited about getting Larvitar the second day and realized soon that its skill is not helpful toward Snorlax level.

Berry contribute 60+ % of the Snorlax strength

[weak hamlet]

Under which catagory would the charge strength skill fall

Unless you dont have one

[neon tree]

Are these all the pokemons in this game?!

[blissful mortar]

If it helps, ttar has a really high gathering frequency so there is a chance the skill might be nice but we dunno rn

[weak hamlet]

Getting charge strength M to level 6 would be huge. 4546 base strength not to mention that gets boosted by area bonus. Seems like that would be much better than keeping your guys energy up for the second half of the day

[blissful mortar]

Wait charge strength gets boosted by area bonus?

This makes me reevaluate sudowoodoo for long term play a little since it has charge strength M

[rose meteor]

Sorry high frequency or low shorter frequency?

[blissful mortar]

uh i meant he has a small timer between gathering

So he should burn through energy quickly technically

It won't matter much atm but potential is there for long term play. We dunno though

ttar is cool anyways :p

[rose meteor]

I really want to get excited about Tyrantiar. I really do, but I am quite firm on at this moment, using double favorite berry team trump all at the early game

[blissful mortar]

Double berry teams early are the fastest for sure ye

I think sweet spot is like 4 double berry favored pokemon and 1 that does ingredient farming like the starters as a sweet spot

Till levels start catching up

[rose meteor]

Agree 👍

[weak hamlet]

Well my pikachu used to give 400 per skill activation but now gives 419 snorlax power and my area bonus is 5%. 5% of 400 is 20.

[blissful mortar]

That rounds close enough. No skill up or anything right?

[weak hamlet]

Nope its still lvl 7

Havent used any seeds

[blissful mortar]

interesting.

[weak hamlet]

What is a double berry pokemon?

[blissful mortar]

So pokemon that give you 2x berries instead of 1x berries. It's generally the mons that are called berry specialists

So like pikachu line gives 2 berries, squirtle line is ingredient and gives 1x berry. Ekans line is berry and gives 2x berries, etc

4 berry specialists of the right type and an ingredient mon seem to be really consistent for early levels

[weak hamlet]

Is there a list of berry specialists?

[blissful mortar]

Uh it'll tell you in the top right. Otherwise you'd have to look it up on serebii

just scrolling through the dex should tell you the kind of pokemon their are with their specialty

[weak hamlet]

amazing thx

Once we know what eeveelutios are berry specialists I guess that will changed their ranks a lot

Seems extremely valueable

[blissful mortar]

Jolteon has a really fast frequency. If it is a berry specialist it's all over

[weak hamlet]

Frequency is how much they find 2 berries or all the berries they can hold

[blissful mortar]

okay I checked supposedly 1 grepa berry but serebii doesn't have much data so could be wrong

Frequency is how fast they find a berry, 1x or 2x is how many they find, and then capacity is the max amount

[weak hamlet]

got it

So what does it mean if pokemon specialize in skills or ingrediants. Cause berries they get 2x

[blissful mortar]

ingredient mons should be finding more ingredients

skill specialists are weird but usually they have pretty unique skills. A lot of them are energy though which is meh but growlithe line is pretty notable it's skill is strong. heard good things about magnemite line too

Energy skills could maybe be good really late game but nobody there yet

[weak hamlet]

My eevee for example doesnt have energy main or sub skills but it specializes in skills

[blissful mortar]

Idk what eevee's deal is but I think it's probably a unique case. Looks kinda like it just functions as roughly an ingredient mon till it evolves

[weak hamlet]

Weird

[blissful mortar]

i dunno about eevee at all

[torn whale]

And @blissful mortar they're all gonna be skill mons. The gimmick with the eeveelutions is each one having a different skill. There have been no cases of evolving changing specialty either, so it's the most logical deduction

[torn whale]

@weak hamlet from my testing, lower energy does seem to reduce gathering frequency. Looking at a lategame angle, I see more benefit in having consistent ingredient drops as 55+ cost recipes give insanely high boosts

For example, the most demanding curry dish is 9010, at level 1 and no additional ingredients. Further progression would let you double, if not triple this value

[silver spade]

so is there anything other than gathering frequency that energy affects?

[torn whale]

^

[silver spade]

sry i meant other than that haha like main skill chance etc

[torn whale]

Oh anything else you meant. I can't test that reliably atm, one of the mons I'm testing with has a -skill nature

Besides, skill proc chances are so low without multiplier stacking that it'd be hard to keep track

[silver spade]

Okayy, thanks

[outer sapphire]

how can i help with your research?

do you still need info on pinsir?

[torn whale]

Yeah I'm not sure what its specialty and ingredients pool are

That's the case for everything in that row, except Arcanine and Jolteon

[torn whale]

Oh interesting another ingredients mon, ty

Having honey makes Venusaur less valuable than I first thought, since it's not the sole ingredient mon with it

It probably goes with the other ingredient mons in C, slightly higher relative to them due to main skill

Then Venu down to where Zard is

[outer sapphire]

ok, if i find another of those mons you need i will send screenshots

let me know if you need help for something else 😄

[torn whale]

Using the feedback from yesterday I put together version 2. Here are the notable changes:

• Magnezone, Walrein, Dodrio and Gengar to S: their typings are all very exclusive, only having one or no other mons share them. Makes their berries more valuable than I initially gave credit for, even if it's not their specialty.

• Arcanine and Jolteon to B: their main skill chooses a helper mon at random and drops a bunch of its resources instantly, definitely has potential but the randomness prevents it from being higher.

• Pinsir to C, Venusaur to B: turns out we have more than one Honey gatherer, which brings Venu down to Zard's level.

• Swalot to B: the skill is a more random variant of Lucario and Persian's, that shouldn't warrant a 2 tier difference so bumped it up.

• Wigglytuff and Sylveon untiered: due to differing thoughts on how much of an effect energy has on gameplay I took them out. The single targeting ally helpers are still there. No changes needed as it's a mediocre skill, even if energy recovery's very useful.

I won't be making additions for lower evo stages. The differences are minor to the point they'd just go in the same places, all that'd do is make the list more cluttered.

[fickle perch]

what makes Wigglytuff allegedly so good btw

I can understand Berry and Ingredient gatherers, but I have a bit of a question mark on Skill specialists

[torn whale]

From my experience you get noticeably more drops the higher your energy is. Being able to keep it high throughout the day has gamebreaking potential for late game

Like when you start needing 55+ recipe dishes to maximize drowsy power

[fickle perch]

so you think Wigglytuff is worth raising early, in order to have it levelled later when it counts?

[torn whale]

For sure. Some people have differing thoughts on energy's mechanics though, like the only change is not getting drops when it hits 0

I'm hunting for one with skill chance multiplying natures and subskills

[fickle perch]

alright good to know! I do get the feeling energy matters to drops even above 0, but that's purely based on observation. don't have proof

[torn whale]

Same, even though I ran tests with identical levels and drops it'd require dozens of players to generate reliable data

So basically have to rely on datamined stats whenever we manage to get hold

[wise junco]

Yea for lower evos the only ones that seem notable are the ones that change type, which i think is just eevee, larvitar/pupitar, and swablu... And from those only swablu would be worth mentioning as the only flying type besides doduo, but that's overshadowed by it becoming altaria anyways

[torn whale]

Eevee's practically a Vaporeon clone in that they share the same skill

[mortal maple]

Eevee is a goat cant have enough of them tbh.

1. candy farming
2. can be build differently and with the evolutions could be good for certain berry teams or ingredient teams its literally a pick and match with evolutions open.

[blissful mortar]

Oh wait the tier list is missing butterfree

That mon should be insane. Berry gatherer with an ingredient active and high frequency. Lum berries aren't in short supply, but butterfree probably does it the best. Kudos on caterpie being super common so you're likely to be able to evolve it fast (also low level requirements to meet) aka have access to level 3 ingredient active quickly on a berry gathering pokemon. Can't upsell this pokemon enough

[obtuse loom]

It's in B

I do think it's a touch undertiered though

I'd put it low A

[blissful mortar]

I must just be blind and didn't see it, but ye it is probably undertiered and A is solid

Pretty good kit but there is just a lot of grass mons to compete with.

[torn whale]

I think the only reason it's not on-par with smth like venu or zard is the specialty being berries. Bug is a niche typing tho, I'll look into it next time I update the list

[mortal maple]

Do typings actually matter

[torn whale]

Yes, typing is what determines the berry

e.g. water types have oran berries, rock has sitrus

[mortal maple]

Ah

[torn whale]

Learning about evolution mechanics and how it confers higher skill levels and stats is making me reconsider certain placements. Mostly for similar ranked mons that do the same thing, putting a 2nd stage evo above 1st stage

And that cheaper evo costs become something to bear in mind

Thanks to Rich I'm able to rank Kangaskhan for the next list

[glacial jasper]

but exclusive doesn't mean they are good

the exclusive berries can be unconsidered if you have more Pokémon of the same type. Like Oran/water berry team for Snorlax when the Snorlax is [water,dragon,ice]

[torn whale]

The fact that no other mon shares their trait does make those berry mons, by definition, "must haves". Even if you have other berry mons to use, having at least one per type is needed for filling the notes and making diamonds

Similar case with ingredients, but even more so given how they're needed for specific recipes. It's why something like Blastoise is a whole tier above similar mons, nothing else comes close for gathering milk and cacao

Another point with berries: what happens in situations where all its favourite ones are types you didn't get? It makes collecting several of the same type that less viable

[neat elk]

Lok at my recent post on #1129220587026382978

[torn whale]

I've made changes to the tier list as more info comes out, but I'm not sure whether to post the update now or wait for more changes to be made. i.e. till I figured out more about the untiered mons

[fickle perch]

I'd personally love to see the changelog as it goes!

[torn whale]

Very well, here's v3:

• Kangaskhan into B tier: it's an ingredient mon with the ingredient finder main skill, pretty much a clone of the kanto starters. Strategically placed behind them due to missing out on evolution bonuses.
• Butterfree from B to A: after considering the reasons for the a higher rank I have to agree. Berry specialty with ingredient finder makes it very well-rounded, while the easy evolutions net you a very strong helper for early game.
• Various 2nd stage evos adjusted: they've been moved slightly higher in their tiers over similar mons that don't evolve (as far), feel free to ask for insight on specific moves.

If one of the mods can unpin the old list, then pin my top forum post explaining the tiering and this one, that'd be grand

[torn whale]

As always, thoughts and suggestions are welcome

[fair escarp]

How does it works to made them S rank.

[torn whale]

Atm the main criteria is having exclusive or very limited access to a type of ingredient or berry

e.g. Altaria is the only mon in the game with the dragon type's berry, Slowpoke line's the sole source of Slowpoke Tails

[fair escarp]

How do I knew if the S tier Pokémon is worth to train.
Like right nature and correct skill(5 skills level 10-100) doesn’t need to be any specific skill for them and has to be gold plate ?

[torn whale]

Advise on individual mons to build is more suited for the share your pokemon thread. The objective for here is comparing different species of mon

In other words the stuff that isn't specific to individual mons, like berries and main skill

[wise junco]

this has been quite helpful as a tie breaker, i'd be having a hard time choosing between arbok and croagunk this morning

[mortal maple]

I think it might be a bit deceptive sometimes. a tier higher might not always mean its the best for you.
If your primary goal is berry then id place toxicroak higher than arbok depending if it has the better berry sub skill.
If its the berry is nice but needing ingredients than id say arbok is better.

[torn whale]

You got it backwards I think, Arbok is the berry one

[mortal maple]

Toxicroak is 5 minutes faster

[torn whale]

So if berries is the goal Arbok should be better, not Toxi

[torn whale]

Couple problems with this logic. There are several more ways to improve helping speed than berry count, and if the tradeoff for double the berries is just 5 mins it's an easy choice

[mortal maple]

also im curious why lucario, sudowoodo and persian are so high

[torn whale]

Skill specialty mons with different main skills that're all useful

[mortal maple]

ah so you value dream shards pretty high ?

[torn whale]

I wouldn't say it's a case of me valuing them, but that they're objectively good for their usage

[mortal maple]

(regarding lucario when comparing to primeape)

same berrymon

[torn whale]

Wdym only one of them's a berry mon, how are they the same

Outside of the specialty Primeape is objectively worse. Lower carry capacity, helping speed, random main skill

[wise junco]

serebii says 17 carry limit for primeape, 14 for lucario

[torn whale]

Oh whoops I was thinking of the Golduck low tier comparison

Either outclassed or identical to other waters

Regardless that still proves my point in that they're far from the same

[wise junco]

primeape kinda looking good though as the best berry gatherer for fighting types (as it's just between the 2)

[torn whale]

That being said I can't think of a single situation I'd rather use it over Lucario

The main skill is a significant downgrade in my eyes

[wise junco]

pushing for higher snorlax strength seems like a common enough scenario

[torn whale]

The skill itself is inconsistent due to the random ranges, which is bound to fluctuate the higher you raise it. Besides it's wholly outclassed by Charge M

Being in the bottom tier isn't meant to label a mon as "bad", rather there's less going for it compared to others or it's outclassed

[wise junco]

sure

i suppose my question would be if there is a combination of fav berries that snorlax can have, that between the berry gatherers available, primeape would be the best option... and having 3 berries as a possibility feels like it eliminates that, or else primeape would be the best at that job :P

for steel magnezone seems objectively worse for increasing snorlax's strength, but for the rest there seem to be better pokes

[torn whale]

If it were the case that steel and ghost were those other types since neither has the right specialist, only then would I use Primeape. I do believe every other berry mon is better

[wise junco]

ah right gengar isn't berry, but ok then that sounds right still, if it was just 1 or 2 fav berries (that snorlax could have) it'd probably be placed higher

[torn whale]

For sure, assuming wholly random selection was in play the probability of being in a situation like this is very unlikely

What could warrant a think is whether Primeape is lacking as much as the other mons in its tier

The closest comparison is Toge, since both main skills are heavily random

Metronome does hurt more since that random factor's meant to be your specialty 💀

Hang on I'm pretty sure the Johto starters are in the same boat as Primeape

Yeah they are, but have the two stage evos going for em

I oughta group em next time, but in which tier is the question

We have more Absol data now, another one out of untiered

[neat elk]

@blissful mortar Hear me out but I think Butterfree is potential S tier since you can easily evolve it at level 8. The only downside you have is the candy restriction since you need a total of 120 from caterpie to Butterfree. If you've manually evolved a caterpie it can potentially get 21-26 limit and level 3 main skill that gives 11 ingredients. Plus honey has a single ingredient recipe for both curry and desserts. Once the sub skill activates you can add the other ingredients to boost your recipe. Also having a double berry is very useful if you are either asleep or afk for too long. Also it's frequency is really low

[blissful mortar]

I actually agree but it's not my tier list. I think A is fair even if I would S tier it myself. Different people have different criteria so you should be making your case to @torn whale 🙂

I think those are very good points though

[torn whale]

Its insane early game value is what brought it up to an A. Currently the mons in S have some sorta exclusivity you can't get with any other mon, like Altaria being the only dragon and Slowpoke line for its tails. I don't think Butterfree can match that

[neat elk]

Also it's quite easy to manipulate the game to get the specific sleeping style you want. I've been testing it out and managed to get my 2 metapods and a caterpie without using any incenses. thats 13 candies in one day

I'm trying to build a butterfree team and update how good it is

[torn whale]

Perhaps as the game gets updated with more variety tiers can be reshuffled more

[blissful mortar]

Mcmandin you madlad. We might actually have our first 5 butterfree gamer

[blissful mortar]

I've been theorizing this as one of the hyper efficient ways to play but haven't had luck getting there myself to try it

[neat elk]

my gastly and pikachu gives 14 extra xp each so trying to find a caterpie with the same level 10 sub skill

[torn whale]

Early on I had Jigglypuff and Sylveon in S for gamebreaking potential, only to move those down due to more time/data being needed. Butterfree would end up a similar case

[neat elk]

I'll try to prove you wrong then😂

[blissful mortar]

Jigglypuff is theoretically good but we don't have efficient berry machine teams that run out of energy by noon going yet lmao

So ye more data makes the most sense

[torn whale]

Oh I'm not doubting your take or anything, just having the proof would make it a more comfortable tier change

[blissful mortar]

Higher energy supposedly means higher chance to activate skills

Which might be goat for jigglys

Hope we get more concrete data soon

[torn whale]

First server Great Rank?

[blissful mortar]

Maybe I didn't even notice 👀

[neat elk]

but you need to keep looging in and keep activating it. having a high limit count early game ensures you have more ingredient slots to fill instead of berries going to snorlax

[blissful mortar]

Ye. That wouldn't be a deal breaker for me I check regularly but some people only clock in at meals

So

Aka not enough data and maybe player specific

[neat elk]

I need all 50 of my friends to choose caterpie whenever possible for thier pic for that to happen 🙏

[blissful mortar]

I am going to catch every carerpie I find

[compact helm]

what’s your method of forced dozing?

[blissful mortar]

I already got 1 but they haven't been showing up since I decided this

If you have a fan I've heard people can force dozing by just having it nearish to the fan (not too close though so it doesn't think you're not sleeping)

Idk the strats too well though

[neat elk]

So what I've observed is that if you're current tracked sleep has an unusually high of any of the sleeping types of compare to your previous one, that's the style you'll get

[torn whale]

Pretty much

[blissful mortar]

I've noticed this too

I didn't think about it but looking back it always says something about X% more than last time and I rarely get double of the same sleep in a row

[torn whale]

It was officially announced that from the 3rd sleep study onwards it'd use patterns from your previous days

[neat elk]

yeah it's start out at 6% for what I've seen

[neat elk]

BTW it's the "fake naps" that's everyone been talking about. I just made it to look like I don't doze in those

the I doze in my real sleep

[torn whale]

Was gonna wait for tomorrow but got impatient, here's v4:

• Wigglytuff and Sylveon to A: feels like the right place for them atm. Feel comfortable saying energy recovery during day has some benefit, and party wide consistency is very handy for QoL.
• Absol to C: another ingredient mon, similar performance to Pinsir. Notably reveals that Blastoise is not the sole Cacao specialist (still has Milk to its name)
• Venusaur, Charizard, Kangaskhan up to A, Vaporeon down to B: I felt a lack of ingredient specialists were in this tier, and these 3 Kanto mons are some of the best. They take Vap's place, which is a different type of specialist. Relying on the skill for random sets of ingredients hampers reliability.
• Leafeon and Wobbuffet down to D: simply put their skill is too random and inefficient to be practical. Even if you're lucky enough to not have it proc on the same helper, it takes too many uses to affect the entire team.
• Minor adjustments within tiers

[pearl pond]

can someone explain what makes gengar good?

[torn whale]

Only ghost type in the game, meaning it has exclusive access to that type's berry

[obtuse loom]

I should plot each mon vs each berry type

Add that to the spreadsheet

[torn whale]

I forget if Sableye is Ghost or Dark in the code

[torn whale]

So a glorified type chart? More useful than I make it out lol

Yeah Sableye is indeed dark

So even after we get its info Gengar stays S

[fickle perch]

Espeon is my favourite Eeveelution so I'm glad it's the most useful

[pearl pond]

so gastly's ingredients aren't the main draw?

[torn whale]

Ironically no, if it weren't for the berry it'd be C alongside the other ingredient mons

[cunning scaffold]

its ingredients are also statistically very good, plus its an ingredient mon with one of the highest help frequencies

[dark chasm]

ok that makes sense, so if your snorlax wants ghost berries its ideal to have a good gengar rn

but it'll probably be moved down if any other better ghost type gets added

[pearl pond]

interesting

[torn whale]

Relative to that ingredients group it'd be top. Being a 2 stage evo is another reason, for even higher stats than the base ones

i.e. above Golem

[torn whale]

Fast helping speed for a 1 stage evo, excellent main skill and psychic being a rare type atm. Has plenty going for it

[fickle perch]

also doesn't need a stone to evolve!

[torn whale]

Ah true

@obtuse loom do you mind updating the pin with v4 list?

[torn whale]

Tyty

[obtuse loom]

Yw bb

[fickle perch]

ATM we have:

Leaf Stone: Victreebel, Leafeon
Fire Stone: Arcanine, Flareon
Water Stone: Vaporeon
Thunder Stone: Raichu, Jolteon, Magnezone
Ice Stone: Glaceon
Moon Stone: Wigglytuff
Shiny Stone: Togekiss
Linking Cord: Golem, Gengar, Slowking
King's Rock: Slowking

so if we're going to look at resource economy as part of tiering I think Thunder Stone evos should be considered comparatively more expensive for example

not saying we should or shouldn't but it's objectively harder to evolve all Thunder Stone mons for free since you only get one evo item of each as a handout

and some of them require working much harder than others (e.g. Leaf Stone can be obtained very early, others not until much later)

that said I've read that evo items can be obtained via friendship. that could make things easier

[torn whale]

I'm really surprised they left out Annihilape

[obtuse loom]

Why?

They only really have Gen 1 and 2 mons

The exception being like, eeveelutions

[fickle perch]

there's some Gen IV

but otherwise yeah

[torn whale]

And the gen 4 evos too yeah

[fickle perch]

I think they'll come with time

[obtuse loom]

A tiny dash of some baby mons

[fickle perch]

they always start from Kanto

[obtuse loom]

They don't even have the full kanto dex

[fickle perch]

the game is slow

if they made too many at once people would probably get bored quickly and quit

imo their 104 at start is a good quantity

[torn whale]

Like sure I get SV's still fairly recent and all, but if they allowed sylveon with the rest being gen 4 they could've made 1 more exception

[woven echo]

just curious, can some1 explain why walrein is S tier above other ingredients magnet mons like the kanto starters?

[torn whale]

Like Gengar it's the berry. Sure there is Glaceon that also shares it, but that's a lot harder to get in comparison

Also Walrein is actually a berry specialist, so it makes the most out of having such a rare berry

[woven echo]

sorry, what's a berry specialist?

[torn whale]

There's three different specialties a mon can have:

• Berries, where it drops 2 berries at a time instead of 1
• Ingredients, where it drops greater number of ingredients at each level (maybe more frequently too)
• Skills, where I'm fairly certain it procs the main skill more frequently. Skill rate is hard to keep tabs on so can't confirm

[woven echo]

got it. ty

[torn whale]

Also refer to this on what makes a mon S tier in this list

[lament swallow]

for skills, could it instead mean that the pokemon gets access to "rarer" main skills or has a higher chance of blue/gold sub skills. looking at the list of main skills, it seems that some skills like "charge Strength M", "dream shard magnet S", or "cooking power-up S" are exclusive to skill specialty pokemon

[torn whale]

It could be any combination of those additional effects tbh

My only qualm with the better main skill theory is you get helper with bad skills, e.g. Umbreon

[lament swallow]

yeah same, for this example, dunno what it could mean for psyduck/golduck https://www.serebii.net/pokemonsleep/mainskills/chargestrengthsvar.shtml

[fickle perch]

@torn whale do you plan on working on a skill tier list too?

I think it could be helpful for people who are working towards spending their resources (candies, shards, etc.) on specific mons

by skills I mean both main and sub

[torn whale]

I considered it, but I'm not sure how to organize them when certain ones are much more beneficial on a given specialty

[fickle perch]

spreadsheet might work. specialty on one axis, skill on the other

and the letters can be in the cells (S, A, B, etc.)

[torn whale]

Like do you rank universally good ones (sleep xp bonus, helping speed etc.) higher than the rest? Even though you might wanna go a completely different direction for, say, a main skill battery?

Maybe after the game's been out for longer we could come to better conclusions on what makes an OP build

A lot of it now feels hypothetical, and current standings could be flipped on their head once we have datamined multipliers for each skill

For all we know, skill trigger could be a 2% multiplier and be practically useless compared to smth else

[fickle perch]

https://serebii.net/pokemonsleep/skills.shtml this has numbers

I know the data around skills is still a bit floaty, but it's a start

I feel like Berry Finding S, Helping Speed M, Skill Trigger M and Sleep EXP Bonus are probably going to be top, but I could see different builds being used otherwise

like potentially ingredient-based teams focused around getting Snorlax the best possible fat max ingredient meals instead of going hard on the berries

how much energy levels impact gathering will play a part too, I'm not seeing a noticeable difference until my energy levels are <50% ish but I could be wrong

[torn whale]

Oh it's already been datamined pog

[lament swallow]

yeah i was wondering that too, i feel like maybe as you progress in the game, ingredient pokemon could get better because each meal will take like 50+ ingredients

[fickle perch]

in my first week about 2/3 of my Snorlax strength came from berries and about 1/3 from meals

percentages might change over time though

[torn whale]

For sure, it really does feel like berries for early game, ingredients late game then skills everything in between

[fickle perch]

and I think having a big pot for the first and last meals of the week might be good to (a) get a head start and not waste much time hunting for mons at early levels and (b) doing the last sprint of the week towards your goal

but idk yet, haven't been able to try

I still have to unlock pot expansions

[lament swallow]

same

[torn whale]

I had more of a 60/40 of berries against dishes, partially bc of all the crit dishes I got

[fickle perch]

I have yet to get a crit dish 😂

but I also have yet to get a single berry specialist that gathers something my Snorlax loves

[torn whale]

Week 2 same, week 1 I got at least every other day

[lament swallow]

this was about my experience as well, but also because my first week was only about 4 days so im not sure if its accurate

[torn whale]

Both weeks have the flying berry, and I was lucky enough to have swablu and doduo from day 2

Mine was 6 days

So close enough ig

[fickle perch]

I also feel like for skills, if they make seeds a little more available (not necessarily free but buyable with some type of currency), your starting skills will matter more than silver or gold

like what can you upgrade to

starting with 5 basics that can become amazing golds might be better long term than starting with 3 golds that you're not going to use

also Nature Mints bls

this game doesn't have breeding, there are a bit too many things that are currently up to the whims of the RNG to allow our minmaxing hearts to find contentment

[lament swallow]

breeding would be an amazing mechanic to have

[fickle perch]

I think breeding is against the purpose of the game

[torn whale]

I hope they don't make it like PoGo and go out of their way to make getting good mons RNG-dependant

[fickle perch]

but having more mechanics that help you improve the mons you get

without having to catch a shitton of the same species

that would be nice

in PoGo it makes sense to catch a lot because catching is super easy

in this game, catching is a hot commodity

if new recruits are hard to come by, it should be possible to optimise your mons more

[fickle perch]

nah I'm just hoping for something that can make any bad mon good/optimisable if you invest enough resources

the alternative being you get lucky and catch something that's already good at the start

but if you can't catch a lot, which seems the case in Sleep, then you should be able to optimise is what I think

[pearl pond]

I'm noticing that team comp has a bigger impact than how good individual mons are

really depends on the objective youre going for

[neat elk]

That doesn't make sense though as it can be easily integrated by having a male AND female of the same species "sleeping" on the same team. When you wake up there is an egg that you have to "hatch" by having both parents sleep again on the same team that will have an hours base hatching progression like the baby mons. It could also take an extra slot but maybe that's the missing 6th slot will be but who knows

[fickle perch]

what I mean is that if the core of the game is finding new sleep styles and slowly building up your dex, breeding probably makes that too easy

although I like your idea, I think something akin to that could work as an additional way to farm candy for certain species

without making it completely trivial to get them

would be especially good to farm candy of rarer spawns

that way you wouldn't have to waste a metric ton of biscuits on recruiting more

[final nimbus]

why is riolu/lucariio good? do we anticipate dream shard shortages later in the game?

[blissful mortar]

Upgrading your pot costs shards and the late levels look to be expensive. Compound that with needing them for candies and probably needing crazy amounts of candies (and by extension dream shards) means they probably will be pretty good.

Lucario is >>> swalot and meowth at least so even if the niche ends up being not that crazy its still the best of the pokemon in that niche.

Lastly this tier list isn't just rating effectiveness completely it HEAVILY weighs uniqueness for like berries and ingredient types

Effectiveness is kinda second fiddle from what I've seen and although it still definitely matters it's like the second criteria not first

It's a bit of a weird list

[torn whale]

It is a collectathon game at the end of the day, rare drops are naturally gonna be highly valued till the game's updated and becomes more diverse

S tier is just the exclusives tier, if you're looking for viability A to below covers that

[final nimbus]

ah i wasn't aware of the pot upgrade cost! and the uniqueness factor makes sense

[vernal orbit]

Yeah after 35 sleep styles it unlocks

[torn whale]

Now have Heracross info thanks to Erayto (and Void for letting me know). Surprised it's not another ingredient mon for honey but rather a Vaporeon clone

[vernal orbit]

I can post here if needed

[torn whale]

Would place right below it, gonna wait for Ditto before updating list

[vernal orbit]

(yw)

[torn whale]

Could be nice if others want to see it, I don't mind either way

[vernal orbit]

Heracross :

[torn whale]

Thx again

Turns out we have a shiny Ditto thanks to nonamad

Here's v5, not much to talk about this time:

• Heracross to B: surprisingly not an ingredient but a skill specialist. Essentially a Vaporeon clone, slightly lower bc it lacks evolution bonus.
• Ditto to C: this one is an ingredient specialist though, bad skill and doesn't seem to have any exclusive drop. We only know two of them so subject to change.

Gonna be the last update for a while, not gonna figure out Sableye's info any time soon

And I'm fairly content with these placements

Reminder on how the tiering's done ^

[blissful mortar]

I had a feeling this was right. Good to know

[blissful mortar]

I have a few qualms so I'll share my thoughts. A-D is said to show viability alongside their niche. Jolteon, flareon, and arcanine are all in B and they have the best skill lists in the game.

Jolteon increases max pot size AND has the highest base frequency in the game. A good jolteon should probably absolutely crush just as much as a magnezone might. It is roughly as good as magnezone and while i know you would shy away from S for the time being i cannot stress how powerful this mon is and how it should probably be in A tier just for that.

Flareon and arcanine are likely too low as well. These mons skills are quite potent in getting you a gout of berries as well as some ingredients by triggering a random pokemons help 4x. You might not like it cause random BUT:

1. you should be matching to the berry week. Each other member of your team should have effective berries making the 4X berries essentially as strong as something like ampharos or espeon Strength up M skills. You also can get ingredients to boot. (i need to double check on the ingredient part but this should be the case). Fire is less common than electricity too.
2. You might say there is a 1/5 chance for the ability to dud and yes arcanine or flareon can hit themselves. You STILL get a bunch of berries and ingredients. Like at worse you can see this low roll as a comparison to something like jhoto starters 200-800 random strength up but again with a chance of getting ingredients mixed in. If you are using theoretical optimal setups where they have berry finder you should still find a really good amount of value in them hitting themselves still especially if it's a leppa week which would negate this downside alltogether. We may not want to bring optimal setups into this however.
3. They have high frequencies compared to many mons and still gather pretty fast. If you are using a skill mon to power up like an ampharos, espeon, sudowoodo (although I'll get to him in a minute) etc. arcanine and flareon both gather much more efficiently outside of just slamming skill all the time and gathering better means more power long run. You may favor ampharos for grepa weeks or arcanine for leppa weeks but outside of those weeks arcanine and flareon gather much better than the big sheep does.

Lastly I think a specific dud made its way too high into the higher tiers. Sudowoodo is the WORST fully evolved frequency mon in the game and hard loses out to espeon and ampharos who all fight for the same niche. I am cool entertaining its berry uniqueness and putting it in C tier, but on kit alone it should be ROCK BOTTOM of D tier it is that bad. It's frequency is lower than many stage 1 mons and is like 60% worse than espeon and ampharos at gathering at base. It has the lowest gather speed of all fully evolved mons. Mushrooms are nice but like do we really care there are a few things that gather mushrooms like gengar, swalot, golem, absol, golduck. Why is it two tiers higher than stuff like golem and 3 tiers higher than golduck if we are saying the ingredient list saves it. If all we care about is rock berry as well, it should be interchangeable with golem at the least. Golem might have a shaky random strength based skill which is blegh but it gathers 15 minutes faster than sudowoodo, can evolve twice, and should always have at least +6-11 capacity on woodo at base. Any difference with a "random" power up skill should be made up in spades based on base kit if we are also caring about berries, and if we don't care and only using for skill ampharos and espeon exist. I don't think golem is good either ftr, but it is better than woodo just by being 15 minutes shorter of frequency speed and carry limit out the ass. If we are going to claim one is better than the other though and need one of them higher cause "we need rock berry access" neither one should be placed higher than B still. They are both bad. I vote to bump sudo to C tier and move golem up 1 tier.

Tldr, i think jolteon to A, flareon and arcanine to A, sudowoodo to C, and golem to B.

[neat elk]

Its glaceon btw not jolteon for eevelotion pot increase

Got mixed up with flareon

[torn whale]

So I'll get Sudowoodo out of the way first. I hear you with the pathetic helping speed, but unless that's shown to affect main skill trigger rate it barely matters imo. Being able to get it going early game gives potency comparable to Butterfree. Unlike that it totally flops late game so who knows.

[blissful mortar]

I'd rather use a flaffy than a sudowoodo all things equal if we are caring about early game and I'd rather use a mareep to a bonsly

[torn whale]

If flaaffy wholly outclasses without factoring in the final evo I'm content dropping Sudo

[blissful mortar]

And like I said if we care about rock niche for the week golem might be shaky but having buttloads more capacity will more than make up for any amount of funny differences the skill triggers might make

[torn whale]

Ok yeah it does. That's a change I'm happy to make

[blissful mortar]

More frequency and carry limit. Spicy herb better than tomato's before we start unlocking 30 and 60 ingredients and maybe woodo can get mushrooms if we care about early

I think golem is probably a lot better than wood in practice but I am content with this. We can make that change when we get a better pulse on frequency and capacity. I am ready to make the claim, but I am cool waiting for data anyways. Woodo is just reallly bad at anything that isn't trigger skill

[torn whale]

Here's my conflict with the Arca/Jolteon skill: they're pretty dependant on having those berry/ingredient mons going first. Having to prioritize that makes it difficult to justify an A, especially with the early stages of the game we're all in

[blissful mortar]

I get that, but it also doesn't really shake the fact that jolteon still has the fastest gather in the game and the skill is still (probably) the best skill in the game

Even if it asks you are getting lots of ingredients

[torn whale]

I guess this reasoning can be flipped onto Sylveon/Wiggly too, yet they made the cut 😅

[blissful mortar]

I still think wiggly and sylv should be untiered since it's even harder to judge long term effectiveness but ye 😛

that's another topic and like at the end of the day whatever. They are theoretically really good

[torn whale]

That base frequency is off a 1-stage evo, couldn't 2-stages that get close overtake if you factor the bonus in? Genuinely asking I haven't looked into the numbers

[blissful mortar]

I am fine biting the dust on arcanine and flareon if you really dislike their skill but it doesn't even require much setup outside of "is this flareon/arcanine good" and "am I using some efficient berry farmers this week that match lax" which is a low barrier of entry.

[blissful mortar]

Higher evolution stages don't affect capacity, just carry limit

[torn whale]

I meant in terms of helping speed

[blissful mortar]

Aka if I evolve my caterpie, it will have more carry limit. It's frequency will still be the same as a wild metapod though

OH

[torn whale]

Also with Flareon are you including the pot skill? If so do you think Glaceon would go up with it?

[blissful mortar]

That is hard to theorize but I think it isn't a dealbreaker by any means. If you collect throughout the day carry limit doesn't matter, it will only matter on big sleep. As for jolteon its carry limit is 17 at base, so 22 if you evolve it. I'll grab a random high tier 3 stage to compare

[neat elk]

I think he's getting both joteon snd flareon mixed up

[blissful mortar]

no i'm tackling jolteon question first

since I think it matters more that it goes up a tier than the other two

[neat elk]

No the skill

It has the same as aracanine

[blissful mortar]

Oh. Yes i did flip flop the skills you're right

[neat elk]

Flareon=glaceon fire and ice so same

[blissful mortar]

That said I don't think it changes my evaluation much. I'll compare it to ampharos since they are probably fighting for the same spot. Give me a second

22 capacity on jolteon after you evolve it and crazy frequency + decent ingredient list.

[torn whale]

Raichu could make a good comparison too iirc has respectable stats among 2nd stage

[blissful mortar]

ampharos is pretty fast in this game ngl. still 5 minutes behind jolteon though. As for the evolution perk stuff it should be 20--25 (i will assume 25 we just need more info though) capacity so like it will at most hold 3 more things than jolt. Jolt gathers faster

Raichu is a bit of a nutjob

WAIT

I think the chart was wrong on raichu that I read. Serebii has it listed at the same speed as jolt.

pichu to raichu has the same frequency, it's berry specialist so it gathers double, and it has a 21 base so 31 final capacity if it evolved twice too

Nah i like jolteon but godamn

I thought jolt had the pot skill

petition to move raichu to S tier? I vastly misunderstood this thing xD

[torn whale]

Gengar also matches this speed tier

[blissful mortar]

Gengar is a bit of a nutjob he is for ingredients instead of berries and his active doesn't matter so you are banking on those ingredients being made into reasonable dishes

Raichu should be hitting that say 31 carry cap over your long rest with mounds of berries to power charge your lax

Raichu active doesn't matter either but ah

[torn whale]

I'm trying to figure out what the deal with helping speed tiers is, and how abnormal this one is compared to other evos

[neat elk]

Unpopular opinion but slow evo line is not worth s tier

[blissful mortar]

Anyways I retract my statements on jolteon a tad. I didn't realize raichu was so fast and jolteon kinda competes with ampharos and raichu hard

I thought jolt had the ingredient skill which is flareon instead as well

[torn whale]

Yeah it seems like Jolteon, Raichu and Gengar are the ones that break into 30 minute range. The rest seem to be 40+

[neat elk]

There's only 2 recipe and only one of each can be gathered at a time

[blissful mortar]

Jolteon gets better ingredients than raichu or amph, but it has a slightly lower cap and a slightly shakier skill that is hard to evaluate

[torn whale]

I used the argument that this game is a collectathon at its core. There being an ingredient and recipes locked behind the line is significant enough imo

Besides you can theoretically build it just get one drop to enable ingredient finder skill to provide it

[blissful mortar]

Which mon are we talking about

[torn whale]

So even for that purpose alone it's pretty significant

Slowpoke line

[blissful mortar]

oh

yah slowpoke like is either S or F. it has unique access to a neccesary ingredient that is best in game value wise. I feel like for this tier list especially it wants to be in S tier cause of that

[neat elk]

By the time you can farm 1 gengar could get 8 tasty mushroom and that's 4 times base power in total 1 tail is 342 with frequency of 1 every 55 mins while you can get total of 8 mushrooms 167 with frequency of 4 every 36 mins

[blissful mortar]

I put it in untiered or "slowpoke" tier on my tierlist cause it's hard to gauge. The tails are REALLY f*n good ingredients but you need like a god tier bro that also roll welled on ingredients

[torn whale]

There's its value too, which super endgame could come into play for setting records for snorlax power

[blissful mortar]

Yah. It probably would be like a 2 week setup where you hoard tails week 1 and then week 2 you make ridiculous dishes with them while power farming hard with like favored berry raichu's, ampharos, and maybe jolt or something idk

Or have magnezone increase space for more tails or whatevs

[torn whale]

That's where I can see Jolt/Arca having huge value

Rest of team being slowpokes then maximise the skill proc for instant tails

[blissful mortar]

ye. I think jolt faces stiff competition (again I swapped the abilities by accident) cause at the end of the day raichu, ampharos, and jolteon are just different flavors of genericly good pokemon that boosts your snorlax's power in a linear fashion

So it really is just numbers on if ampharos better active matters more than raichu's better berries matters more than jolteon giving X times help from one pokemon

[neat elk]

Is that how the skill works?

[torn whale]

Yeah the skill selects a helper mon at random then drops its ingredients at a multiplied value

*and berries

[neat elk]

No i mean you havee to discover the item first?

[torn whale]

Oh right. Ingredient Helper can only drop what's in your notes

So looking into the pot skill. At first glance Mag is the ideal one to build for that

[neat elk]

of I messed up I could caught

and got myself a head start with my wartortle dropping them

I ignored it since I'm running low of biscuits

[torn whale]

My 4* Caterpie wasn't even that good tbh

[vernal orbit]

sleep styles means nothing it seems for skills/nature rolls ect

[torn whale]

But I look at these stats and maybe Flareon's the best

[vernal orbit]

it's just rarer so we don't 100% the Dex the first week

[blissful mortar]

I did digging before I made myself look like a fool again. I think flareon is interchangible with magnezone as far as skill goes. It has a decent bit higher frequency but will have like 4 less capacity if both were evolved from base form. They are otherwise both skill specialists and have slightly nice igredient lists but nothing that screams wow.

Magnezone having unique access to its berry makes sense for the current S tier. The proposal is flareon up to A tier. The skill is probably best in game it and while it asks you to have ingredients available, it is very good if you do.

I am slightly wondering if we are over valuing the pot increase skill some because we are early game and we are really hamstringed by pot size atm curious how we will feel about the skill say a year down the line

[vernal orbit]

with ingredients Mons fully build pot size will be rly important, I Red

[blissful mortar]

Flareon will at least be goated for short term for people that say immediately evolve eevee or catch a full flareon i 100% believe this

[neat elk]

even though I didn't catch that slowpoke for the tails I manage to snag a potential jolteon or sylvion

[blissful mortar]

I am thinking about long term and that it might be good but also like our berries will very valuable by then

And wondering how pot max size up will compare to just like, getting a theoretical flood of leppas

It's hard to judge the numbers are a bit abstract and it's guesswork slightly without like a spreadsheet in my face

[neat elk]

I'm thinking maybe even glaceon or flareon

[vernal orbit]

prb is the fire stone cost, can we get it other way than from the shop ?

[torn whale]

Don't discount Espeon either

[blissful mortar]

Glaceon is kinda just worse flareon but unique berry typing so wose carry capacity and frequency but ice type is rare and probably will be for most of the games life. I'd still rec people flareon over glace though if asked

[torn whale]

Respectable base stats, only viable psychic type (don't use Wobbuffet), skill's decent too

[neat elk]

I would have gotten both eevee for a faster eevelution but I'm only F2P and running really low on biscuits

[blissful mortar]

Espeon is kinda interchangeable with ampharos. I think ampharos has a very slight lead on espeon cause it has big arms with a bunch of carry capacity but espeon has unique psychic berries essentially so yah. (lmao 1 minute diff on frequency in espeons favor i guess haha)

espeon is pretty good

[torn whale]

It's one of those skills that shines when starting off, then optimizing end game. Very much an hourglass type pattern, since it's kinda whatever midgame

If anything were to be moved maybe Glaceon for being outclassed as a skill user, similar to Sudo and other D tiers

[blissful mortar]

ye

I think walrein existing for ice berries AND flareon/magnemite line existing for the skill leaves glaceon in a weird no mans land. I don't think it should SIGNIFICANTLY be tiered worse, but being a tier below the others in effectiveness sounds right to me

[torn whale]

https://tenor.com/view/cliffhanger-gif-11512597

[blissful mortar]

Like 1 tier lower than wherever flareon sits makes sense to me

So if A flareon, B glace. If B flareon, C glace etc.

[torn whale]

Glaceon holding on w/ ice typing do be like that

Yeah ok it'll gatekeep C tier. Role compression does prevent it from being D

[blissful mortar]

ye

The kit IS good, just outclassed

It's not a shitter, just awkwardly located under the other good ones but the mon itself good and could be slotted in without "too" much trouble

[torn whale]

And Golem was the last point, lemme pull that up rq

[blissful mortar]

Our discussion today has me reevaluating my current tier list I've been working on haha. I am ignoring uniqueness 100% and only looking at:
Skill
Frequency
Specialty
Carry capacity
Ingredient quality

[torn whale]

Oh it's one of the mons missing an ingredient, lemme see if I can find the 3rd from any screenshots

[blissful mortar]

Oh yah golem. I personally think it's better than sudowoodo since it has a lot more capacity and frequency and I believe it would offset the shakier skill just by sheer amount of berries. aka:
. If we care about rock berry and saying we need a rock berry mon, it's probably better than woodo.
. If we don't care about the berry type and just kit, ampharos and espeon are better than both of them.

And I think the tier list currently favors the first point

If you could find third golem ingredient that would be fire

[torn whale]

Now that Sudo's gone down it deffo has the edge

[blissful mortar]

I am curious if golem might only have 2 ingredients available. If that is the case then it might be a super consistent option to try and get a double mushroom farmer

If there was a 3rd ingredient I am 99.99% confident serebii would have listed it

If that's the case it also might have a more consistent chance of having relevant ingredients than woodo outside of the likely interchangeable nature of the two

[neat elk]

stick with gengar as its much faster plus fiery herbs is much more than soy

[torn whale]

Found it, potatoes

[blissful mortar]

Sick we can ignore the 2 ingredient maybe means consistency in getting a high roll angle then

[torn whale]

From Rich

[blissful mortar]

Potato's kinda nice. Not many things give potatos

[neat elk]

@blissful mortar hey check out my latest post on share pokemon energy about recovery natures affecting the 12% you get from sleep

[blissful mortar]

I still don't know completely. Are ingredient AMOUNTS random or are they locked in by species. it is something that has crossed my mind a few times but never really got a clear answer on. Will golems always drop 4 and 6 ingredients or can golems drop 5 and 5

[torn whale]

I only saw it after I went through my sleep study, I'll be sure to get tonight's sleep tho

[torn whale]

Amounts are random ranges

[blissful mortar]

And that is a high/low roll. LIke every slowpoke I have seen has 1 and 2 amounts for ingredients in the last two slots but idk if that is just luck

[torn whale]

Only the first is set at 1/2 based on specialty

[blissful mortar]

kk

Man that means I am going to have to learn the ranges and stuff and start factoring that into my pokemon evaluations on the rating thread

Not looking forward to juggling that alongside the rest of it

[torn whale]

I know a couple off the top of my head, lv60 and specialty is 4-8

And lv30 non-specialty is 1-3

[blissful mortar]

That helps some

[torn whale]

Could prolly dive through mons in #1134161071150747760 to figure out the rest

[blissful mortar]

I think I'll probably do that.... TOMORROW cause it will be a project and I ain't got time for that today haha.

I'm updating the tier list I am working on as well rn and I think that's about all I can afford time wise today

[torn whale]

And now for v6:

• Sudowoodo from A to D, Golem from C to B: following discussion Sudowoodo is completely outclassed by the other Charge M users, Flaaffy is better in every aspect and that's only its stage 1 evo. Golem goes up to compensate as the better rock type, but isn't as good as the tier's other ingredient helpers.
• Glaceon to C from B: similar deal, it's outclassed by Flareon. Role compression from the niche ice type berry keeps it out of D.

[dry salmon]

My geodude gives mushrooms at 60

[torn whale]

Lv30 and 60 ingredients are random, so much of the time you end up missing one of the three

[dry salmon]

Ah right, sorry I misunderstood 😊

[torn whale]

Nah you're fine, for context Serebii was missing the last ingredient from Geodude's pool

[dry salmon]

👍

[vernal orbit]

yeah I saw a mon with only 2 and thought it was normal, I understand now it's just missing data

[warm smelt]

Is there any major difference between slowking and Slowbro at this point?

Is Slowking better than Slowbro?

[torn whale]

Slowking has slightly better helping speed and carry capacity

[warm smelt]

Ahh, I see

I thought Pokémon skills were randomised, are they all preset?

Two gengars will have the same value?

[torn whale]

Sub skills are random, but not main skills

[warm smelt]

Are sub skills super important?

[wise junco]

they can have a big impact and you're stuck with them

[torn whale]

They make for individual differences between the same species of mon. So a Mareep with better skills would be more worth powering up than another

[warm smelt]

Ohh right right

and I'm guessing natures matter slightly less than that

[torn whale]

Depends really, I consider both equally important

I don't know how much the nature multiplies certain effects though

[vernal orbit]

tbh it's kinda all related, bad nature will need subskills to make up for it
but if you get good subskills and good nature your Mon becomes a powerhouse so it all depends on luck

[warm smelt]

That makes sense

Will future tier lists have natures and subskills attached?

[vernal orbit]

main skills are important if you want to trigger them but for a berry or ingredients Mon you won't use it often (unless you have skills trigger sub skills)

I do think people will do tier list by type of Pokémon and then we could put nature's and skills for account

[wise junco]

natures are 20% addition or reduction

serebii found the multiplier

[torn whale]

Oh neat

[vernal orbit]

untill then it's kinda weird to rank berry specialists with ingredients farmer

yeah -20% help speed let's go

totally viable

[wise junco]

my poor modest slakoth destined for the meat grinder

[vernal orbit]

if it has god sub skills save him, in case of a miracle changing nature items is released otherwise

[neat elk]

I'm not sure that's totally accurate though

[wise junco]

there's only a bit of room for interpretation, but it's the most accurate value we have at least

straight from the game

[neat elk]

I know it's a fact it's 10% up and down for speed of help I have copies of same mons to prove it

[wise junco]

have you mentioned it to him? probably would be interested

[neat elk]

no I think there's a few minor inaccuracies of % calculation on serebii like the dish pot boost and nature boost

[final nimbus]

can someone help me interpret the odds numbers depicted on serebii?

for example, what does 00:36:40 mean

[wise junco]

i'm assuming that means what the game refers to as the frequency? 36min 40sec?

i don't think anyone is really sure what that time refers to, but lower = gather berries/ingredients faster

[vernal orbit]

where ? can you screenshot it pls

frequency would makes sense

[final nimbus]

OH thats what the base frequency means

i thought this was referring to rarity not helping speed

[lofty crow]

It could add up to when the full cary capacity is reached with the ING/berries drop x1/x2
But for the beginning pika its does not match…

[wise junco]

sure it's not the nature?

ah i see, saw another screenshot at 44:27

[torn whale]

If a mod can update pins with the latest version that'd be great 🙏

[blissful mortar]

Guys there was a thread and we solved it

#1133872623898603651

It is +10% or -10% frequency from nature

[timid pollen]

Anyone got an explanation on why certain mons are good I have both an swablu and doduo and am wondering why they are good because they have low rp

[blissful mortar]

Idk if their natures are good but you should just use what matches favored berry atm

[timid pollen]

So is it better to have all ingredients all berries all skills or a mix

[vernal orbit]

because tier list is not about RP but about uniqueness for berries/type and skills

for now we've seen great success with 3/4 berry spe + 1 skills support and 1 ingr or just 2 ingr

some people have also tried full berry teams with 5x rattatas or 5 xcaterpie

not enough data to say whats the best tho

kinda depend and what berry you snorlax wants

[blissful mortar]

Ingredient teams with magnemite could cook really hard but you need 1-2 really good magnemite with lots of skill chance (or I guess flareon/glaceon work too) for that strat to increase pot size and accommodate ingredient flood. Really hard to setup and otherwise yah 3-4 berry specialist of favored berry and 1-2 ingredient mons rn

[torn whale]

Only S tier is majorly influenced by that, everything else is viability with a couple exceptions

[blissful mortar]

Btw ice is rare enough and the berry value is high I think we could move glaceon to "butt buddy with flareon tier" so wherever flareon goes glaceon goes. They're carbon copies with slightly more optimized going to flareon but much rarer berry type and low ice competition going to glaceon. Only other ice type is walrein

[fickle perch]

I was wondering about that too

[blissful mortar]

This is a very minor suggestion but think it is worth since imo those two are interchangeable as far slot on a team goes and only meaningful difference is if favored berry comes into play. Even then, on fire week there is stiffer competition from strong options like charizard, typhlosion, and arcanine while for ice berries it's JUST walrein and glace

[fickle perch]

berry collection so far seems very impactful in terms of how far your Snorlax can go

and Fire definitely has more options than Ice so far

[blissful mortar]

Ye.

I will say if NEITHER is favored I think flareon probably very slightly wins out but it's low impact difference. If fire is favored flareon obviously wins out but there are a lot of really good fire pokemon fighting for slots. If ice is favored glaceon obviously wins but isn't fighting with nearly as many pokemon for slots since just walrein as other ice type

So butt buddying them together makes most sense imo from effectiveness angle

[neat elk]

@blissful mortar I think the tiering should also consider other use case scenarios such as snorlax favourite berries for the week and island multiplier since they can stack together. Look at my post #1135459507959496802

[blissful mortar]

How do you SUGGEST that impacts tiering? Isn't easier to look at stuff in a vacuum and then it's up to the player to go "Oh the S tier thing isn't favored berry but the A or B tier thing is, I should use favored berry?" In a lot of ways this tier list (that isn't my tier list ftr it's Azul's)

takes into account berry diversity and uniqueness quite well already

How would you improve upon the rules they have laid out (in the pins)

[neat elk]

Some of the mons higher up are WAY later down the line. I doubt anyone could get a slowpoke tail since it needs a level 30 slow evo line to get it.

It's better to adjust 8
It in the current "meta" as gamers like to call it

Current meta are mons with a level 10 +1 berry sub skill.

[blissful mortar]

Or easy to evolve like metapod with helper M

I get the sentiment for a tier list that impacts us RIGHT NOW for like the level 1-15 range. I would gladly work on that with you if you like

[neat elk]

I managed to get to master 1 mainly due to Pikachu even though it wasn't the berry of the week even as a f2p player

[blissful mortar]

I think viewing this tier list like "who do i invest long term" is not bad at all though

I would be down to work with you on a "Level 10" tier list if you're down 🙂

Actually.... I was considering on starting a youtube channel this upcoming week. I could do two videos. A short term and long term tier list

[neat elk]

Yeah people will get bored way too easily if they can think that by having the slow fam in 3 months will get them to master. Whereas +1 berry could do that to you next week

[blissful mortar]

ye ye. I'll open a thread with a "Level 10" tier list that looks at all babies and early evolvers (i might make notes for prevolved pokemon you can catch that are easy like raticate too idk how I'll tackle that yet)

And pokemon in the S and A tier I'll talk about skills you want on them to really stand out

[neat elk]

I have 3 accounts (2 extra old phones from 2018 as I'm not that rich)

[blissful mortar]

Once I post that we can discuss and you can help with giving your thoughts on where stuff might be 🙂

[neat elk]

One is berry team like this one

One is ingredient base team

One is experimenting

[blissful mortar]

I think i have a good pulse on the early ideal setups. I've looked at soooooooo many mons in the freaking rate the mon thread and I usually put a lot of value on good level 10/25 skills for the pokemon

I think the toughest pokemon for me to value is jigglypuff. I might try it this week just to FEEL it

[neat elk]

To be honest berry won as I got lucky with the starter Pikachu having +1 level 10 subskill

[blissful mortar]

It's so hard to judge in a vacuum. Might just untier it though

[neat elk]

Others just reached ultra

[neat elk]

No Reversal for 3 weeks apparently so I need to do my own research as there's no one consistent posting videos about Pokémon sleep

[blissful mortar]

I am looking to crack open the pokemon sleep youtube space

While it may not be perfect it i have put a lot of effort into collecting data and wrapping my head around pokemon values and I will gladly regularly update it as more info drops

I need to look into how to properly do all this though

[neat elk]

Don't worry I'm getting sleep hours with my Eevee that could be sylvion stats wise

Just need more hours for it😂

[blissful mortar]

Hmmmmm i wonder

[neat elk]

Oh btw I think you should talk about doing 2 sessions per day

[blissful mortar]

instead of the normal S->F ranking it looked something like this

I think it could help capture the multiple dimensions of the mons well

[neat elk]

I have someone on my friends list that keeps giving me 2 candies per day and I always see his name as they have an absol pic

[blissful mortar]

Wait if they have an absol pic that should mean they caught an absol

I'm jealous af that's such a hard find

[neat elk]

Now that I think of it this way it's more candies for you and your friends

To do two actual sessions per day if you can to speed up gathering candies

He seems to be doing 80 20

I'm guessing for the 80+ sleep for diamond reward rank

[blissful mortar]

Btw azul we hijacked your thread a little going on a tangent. I am not suggesting you replace your tierlist they were just talking about how something talking about immediate impact would likely be more applicable to people so I was thinking of how to tackle that

And that was what I came up with

[torn whale]

It's not like fighting, steel or ghost where we literally don't have an ice berry specialist. And Flareon isn't the only mon that outclasses for skill usage. The niche of having both and dominant for neither keeps it from D but can't justify much higher

[torn whale]

Particularly for a lv10 tier list, you can argue literally anything goes top bc individual traits like nature have more significance

I chose to consider late game so strongly as you don't focus so much on that

[blissful mortar]

I think i could seperate it a decent amount.
Stuff like pikachu and caterpie gunning to level 10 and/or evolving is very efficent
And honey making ingredient farmers like bulbasaur can 1 man army cooking pot duty

Gastly is a bit more mid early

[neat elk]

@blissful mortar look player seems to be doing 80 20 sessions as I've said and prioritising ingredients team

[blissful mortar]

Fiery herb doesn't help a lot of the small capacity dishes (okay value though) and it doesn't gather that well at the gastly stage

just as some examples for a level 10 tier list

[neat elk]

Might have salad for Moomoo Caprese Salad due to pure oil and tomato

He's actually really active and gives 2 candies per day instead of one 100 session

[blissful mortar]

Moomoo caprese salad is very good bang for your buck if you can make it. I made a single one and it like jumped me a tier in ultra practically

[neat elk]

That only gives 1 candy

[blissful mortar]

I give two candies a day 😢

Although I don't do 20/80 I do like 30-40 and 60-70

[neat elk]

Guessing he's maximising candy production

[blissful mortar]

Anyways I'd rather not bury azuls thread in too much off topic

I think you were spot on that he was doing it for the achievement

[neat elk]

I hate that there's no chat feature I'd love to talk to the player

[neat elk]

Btw bulbasaur isn't that good as there's no recipe for honey in salads as I suppose it's meant to be vegetarian

Squirtle is much better as there's a recipe on all 3 dish types for milk that can easily be gathered

[blissful mortar]

Honey is a one man army for curry and desserts and gives much better value than like the apple dishes

The salad milk dish needs bean sausage which isn't much of an ask but it's whatevs. My opinion would be bulbasaur and squirtle are the two super helpful ingredient mons ehhhhh

Probably squirtle > bulbasaur> mander but I don't have a big diff on squirtle versus bulba. It works better cause it hits all three categories but honey is worth more as a random pot ingredient and still has very meaningful dishes for curry and dessert

[lofty crow]

Agree. We should focus the “purpose” of the tier list to Early game focus for now

[lofty crow]

Man the ingredient tier list will be hard xD

Havent digged into ingredients that much yet. To me it feels like cooking docused growth is much harder to plan and perform optimally. But maybe, just maybe, the result of cooking great meals may outperform berry or skill focused comps? Especially if you buy the premium tent. Or use the pot size skilled mons.

[neat elk]

I kinda talked about it using my ingredients team here #1133548285030834296

[blissful mortar]

I think i agree, a 5 ingredient team or like 4 ingredient and a magnemite sounds absolutely steller. That said though what that looks like idk. What favored meal type probably matters. here are some spots for potential though looking at the chart qrill made (tbh i find it hard to read the spreadsheet)

Salads: Moomoo caprese salad. Iiirc this is worth a lot of points. I remember it giving me a TON when I made one. 12 milk, 6 tomato, 5 oil. Before level 30 this is going to be a croagunk for oil, bellsprout for tomato, and squirtle (probably 2 of them) for milk. If you could make this 2-3 times a day it's nuts af. It's better than stuff like snow cloak ceaser salad.

Curry: If you get to 23 capacity spore mushroom curry looks really good but no ingredient mon has mushrooms as their slot 1 gathering so painful af to make work.

I think the answer is Drought Katsu Curry. 10 Bean sausage and 5 oil, or 2 charmanders and a croagunk. It was much better values than the other dishes you can make in the limited pot space (you even have extra space afterwards for good value ingredients).

Melty omelette curry looks better on paper but no ingredient specialists have egg in slot 1 which is pain. (actually no egg ingredient specialists period even at higher level. You will need to adapt a berry or skill mon)

Desserts: At 23 capacity it is huge power soy donuts if you have absol (rare af but only cacao ingredient mon in slot 1) with 9 pure oil, 6 soybeans, and 7 cacao (1-2 croagunk, a geodude, and an absol). Absol is really hard to find though. If no absol for cacao then big malasada next best at this capacity. 10 oil, 7 milk, 6 honey (2 croagunk, 1-2 squirtle, a bulbasaur)

If the capacity is an issue then we have have to settle for craft soda pop I think. it's a bit low value BUT it only costs 9 honey. That's 2 bulbasaur and you run ingredients with the highest base value to fill the rest of the pot. Fluffy sweet potato's is technically better but too hard to make with needing 9 potato's and no potato ingredient specialist at level 1.

[neat elk]

oh btw I was so lucky again having 3 weeks of curry dishes no need to change my lineup for the week

[blissful mortar]

@obtuse loom whenever you get to this I think this is accurate although second eyes always good. I think it is accurate though

[vernal orbit]

what about we do an ingredient post ?

[blissful mortar]

I think so ye

We derailed this thread long enough. I will make a post I'll just copy and paste what I said in here.

[torn whale]

Been thinking it over and Raichu could definitely go up to A, come to realize just how good its fast helping speed makes it. Just not sure where in relation to Ampharos

The next fastest are Dodrio, already in S, and Typhlosion, at 40 mins base. Even though gen 2 starters have a pretty bad main skill these parameters make a solid case for a tier up

Base 23 carry capacity too, might be the highest in the game

[blissful mortar]

Imo raichu and ampharos are likely interchangeable. I have a hunch raichu's consistency with berry specialist versus relying on skill trigger procs likely makes it better overall but we don't know that till we get there

I think they are super comparable though when you put them side by side to be worth same tier and both steller

[torn whale]

It's gonna go right with Butterfree

[obtuse loom]

I don't entirely agree with your evaluation, but I'm at work now. If you send me a reminder in like 4 hours, I can give you a rundown

[blissful mortar]

Anything I wrote there is in the document in the other thread

although I cleaned it up a bit

so ye

I'll @ you when I wake up if I remember

[torn whale]

v7 is a minor update:

• Raichu from B to A: some of the highest base stats in the game, helping speed at 36:40 and 21 carry capacity. On-par with Butterfree but a tradeoff, more demanding evo cost for better stats.
• Typhlosion from C to B: has particularly good stats even amongst the gen 2 starters. 2nd fastest helping speed and the largest carry capacity in the game. Still has to deal with its trash main skill keeping it out of A

[blissful mortar]

Azul for my tier list that I made for pokemon that have really strong kits (and barely weighing berry uniqueness, although I think 1-2 mons I let it matter) Raichu is in S for kit power alongside walreion/butterfree.
Typhlosion is at the very tip top of A tier.

Dunno if you care for that info but that is at least my stance for how good kit is for those two

[lofty crow]

I think tierlist should be duplicated to
A: berry finder tierlist
B: cooking tierlist
C: specials, xp,shards,research bonuses

In the end i think you need to make a team for a given goal. Mixed team will maybe just be mediocre???
What do you think?

[torn whale]

So just post the same thing 3 times for each specialist category? I don't think there's enough variety in the game for that yet

You could just use the one list and pick out the highest ranked specialists. And any exceptions, like ghost type berries when it doesn't have a specialist, would be in S

I definitely don't think having a specific "goal" for teambuilding is the way to go. In the right circumstances even D tiers would have a use over something in the top ranks

[blissful mortar]

I think currently an S, A, etc. tier list is fine. Pokemon that are the best in their group/niche (like ampharos as the skill strength M mon) will sift to A tier while the duds (like sudowoodo) will sift lower for that niche. Pokemon that are clearly just outstanding and consistent will make their way up to S from A tier

I agree we can break them down into subcategories when we get say, half of all the pokemon in here there will be absurd variety. There is 50 pokemon rn though if we only count fully evolved and many pokemon are unique to their niche (dodrio for fully evolved berry special pamtre, walrein for berry special ice, etc)

[vernal orbit]

an easy way is just to do it like that would be like that no ?

just do 3 columns

[loud radish]

dang I didnt know Ferali' was meh. My totodile goes HAM with the berries.

[lofty crow]

Sure also true for now.
Ill show you two an idea i have later after work. So we can still see both in one list hopefully😛

[lofty crow]

green: BERRIES
orange: INGREDIENTS
blue: SKILLS
red: unsure

possible if someone uses sleeps icons and adds a backgroud to them for a tierlist template. then we can make our own tierlist 🙂

[torn whale]

Ditto is ingredients

[lofty crow]

then serebii is not updated?

[vernal orbit]

yes

[torn whale]

Joe's in Japan for Worlds so updates are gonna be infrequent for a while

[lofty crow]

Joe is the person responsible for serebii content?

[torn whale]

Right

[loud radish]

so who's the best for Oran berries?

is it Blastoise? who also happens to have killer ingredients farming too?

[torn whale]

Feraligatr is. Only berry class water type

Blastoise is good too, but drops ingredients more often than berries

So if you only want the berry it's not as ideal

[glass isle]

Is there an analysis on when the ingredient team is going to out perform berry team?

I mean as more dishes are made, becayse of the dish bonus, I assume the ingredients team is going to out perform berry team isn't it?

[torn whale]

I vaguely recall seeing a couple threads on that, can't remember what they were called

Bear in mind it'll be strictly theoretical analysis based on early data, nobody's even close to that stage of the game

[ember path]

Is there also a tier list of skills for different kinds of pokemon for example you want ingredient magnet on an ingredient focussed pokemon?

[torn whale]

That's partially what the tier list looks at. Mons with main skills better suited to their specialty are higher rated

So for that example you gave it's what all the kanto starters and kangaskhan have, which puts them in A

[neat elk]

hey check my post here #1135459507959496802 as I'm using 3 phones with different accounts and it's the start of a new week so I figured it's the best way to compare them

All 3 are F2P btw so it's doable. I just had a head start since I started playing on the first few days of launch

[pearl pond]

I like this layout a lot. i would love to see future lists be categorized like this

[vernal orbit]

yeah the point is to make it clearer and easier to understand

[pearl pond]

I really appreciate this thread by @torn whale and the list they are managing. I reference it frequently. I would also reallllllly like to see a "current meta" tierlist like @neat elk suggested.

I have a potentially strong charizard candidate that will not be fully kitted out until lvl 75 but will be a beast at that point. No idea how long that will take, 6 months? 1 year? Multiple years? It just isn't practical information right now.

[torn whale]

I briefly talked about this earlier but I feel literally everything can be viable at this stage of the game. Without significant pooling of resources or p2w, it's impossible to power up/evolve most mons with only a couple exceptions

[pearl pond]

i agree that everything is viable. i feel like a D tier mon with good nature and good lvl 10 skill is far better than any S or A tier mon with mid kit

i think berry preference and team comp play a bigger role

that said, an early game tier list would be useful

also, azul i should also say that i think your tierlist is super useful for longterm viability. im using it to see which mons to keep and invest in long term

[torn whale]

Tbh all it would be is Metapod, Pikachu and stage 1 starters in one tier, then everything else below

Just because that group would have the evolution bonus

[neat elk]

snorlax favourite berries on weekdays and start farming ingredients for Sunday's double cooking pot size for 3 meals

in Saturday morning

[loud radish]

ohhhhhhh is that why I can stuff 28 things in the cooking pot randomly? it was a weekend bonus?

[neat elk]

that's basically the "current meta" any berry specialist that gives 2x berries that have potential ingredients for a 20+ recipes fav dish of the week

yeah

[vernal orbit]

where did you get the sprites for the tier list btw @torn whale

[torn whale]

https://tiermaker.com/create/every-pokemon-2023-1394582

It's not my template but it uses Pokémon HOME sprites

[vernal orbit]

oh ok ty

[obtuse loom]

Mankey is also pretty great

Even without the evo bonhs

[blissful mortar]

I like the idea of borders a lot. I love this idea. I'm stealing it

[lofty crow]

Go for it

[blissful mortar]

We have no idea. Before a year is up it SOUNDS reasonable but like we have 0 actual guesses

[pearl pond]

i mean at a baseline that's the "meta." but for f2p players with limited access to biscuits, the differences in mons matters. especially in instances like where you have a mareep and a sudo one day

[pearl pond]

the scaling in this game is going to affect so much. im predicting that dream shards will be a major limiting factor

like stardust in pogo

[blissful mortar]

It might be.

Something people aren't looking at really at all is their level 30 and 60 ingredient unlocks either. A pokemon that gives 5x caccao at level 30 is nutty and a pokemon thay gives 2x apples or milk a little bit less so

[pearl pond]

that's true. i think there are two macro approaches to the game. 1) you pick mons you'll invest in for the long term and just start investing early. 2) build up early game engine first with mons that are strong up to level 25, then once you have that going, you can start looking for those perfect long-term mons for late game

[neat elk]

I'm F2P I just have 3 separate phones and using my mistakes to do better in all of the accounts #1135459507959496802 follow this as I'll try to update just before I go to sleep

[pearl pond]

oh nice that's awesome

[ivory zodiac]

@torn whale @wise junco I don't know if you two ever concluded the dispute on energy and it's link to efficiency, but I might have some insight #1134521097707077702 message

from what it appears, players that get more hours of sleep per night seem to encounter more skill activations per day. it's pretty shaky results, but it's atleast trending in the direction of energy being a gradient of activation

[pearl pond]

this is an amazing discovery. needs more data to make the findings statistically significant, but really useful

[wise junco]

yea i think that was serebii's conclusion a few days ago

but good to have some confirmation

still a bit hard to judge how energy skills affect the efficiency vs having other skills, but it shouldn't be completely useless at least

[ivory zodiac]

neat, do you know here they said this?

[wise junco]

#general message

[ivory zodiac]

i had 2 level two "energy for everyone" skills proc today. i plan to check and see how my "sneaky snack" stats tonight differ from a day with no skill triggers

[wise junco]

and on that convo they're referencing this page that was fixed https://www.serebii.net/pokemonsleep/skills.shtml

Main Skills can be activated at any point with a cooldown for their next use, and they activate less the lower your Pokémon's energy

there's also this #general message but as he said later on, it's hard to judge the factor, if it's multiplied by 10, 100 etc

[blissful mortar]

While it's only a thought, players that sleep more fill more energy and I've HEARD higher energy = higher skill activation chance. It would check a lot of this out. Do not know if this is true or not but it makes sense

Oh wait

I totally misread

carry on you were already talking about this

[ivory zodiac]

yeah

but we came to the same conclusion, so that's a win

[tardy knoll]

My ditto drops 3x slowpoke tails at lv60, does that make it rank higher?

[blissful mortar]

wait what

wtf why does ditto drop tails. Send me a screenshot

[blissful mortar]

Man that ingredient list is nuts

[tardy knoll]

If you get decent ingredient finding sub skills/nature it could be good

[blissful mortar]

I have a theory that slowpoke tails may have a lower max ingredient amounts than other stuff. I never have seen like a 3x tail at level 30 or 5x tail at 60 on slowbro.

And it may be doing weird things here even though ditto is an ingredient specialist.

Either way ditto seems really fire looking at its ingredient list. You got help speed, ingredient finder, and inventory up which seems like the 3 skills you really want/need so use this guy

Those leeks and tails should give you really solid dish value

yah serebii was missing ingredient amounts

[vernal orbit]

I think ditto can have any ingrédients

As its a ditto it copies everything

[blissful mortar]

IF it can have any ingredients then epans ditto is even more ridiculous of a high roll

[vernal orbit]

Yeah

[blissful mortar]

It might be one of the most valuable ingredient mons in the game theoretically

[ivory zodiac]

is ditto a skill pokemon?

or is it ingredient? that's kind of sick

level 1, X2 slowpoke tail possible?

[blissful mortar]

Ingredient pokemon 👀

I do not know if it's possible or not. It's possible it's possible or it's possible it's not possible

[torn whale]

Just looks to be oil, leek and slowpoke tail

[torn whale]

That's a huge find, many thanks. It'll definitely shake up the tier list, just woke up tho

[blissful mortar]

Do we have pictures of other dittos and if so do they also only have these 3 ingredients

If it can be anything then it almost certainly would be unlikely it would be same for two people

[torn whale]

There is in https://discord.com/channels/1129035839398228028/1135067970104729692

[torn whale]

v8 is all about Slowpoke Tails:

• Ditto from C to S: Turns out Ditto's third ingredient drop is, you guessed it, Slowpoke Tail. This and being a specialist turn it into the de-facto gatherer.
• Slowpoke evos from S to D: their only claim to fame was the ingredient, and Ditto covers that role way better.
  Even though there's more than one evo line with the ingredient now, it stays in S because Slowpokes just aren't worth building anymore. Not necessarily the case, early usage for Cacao is noteworthy. But Psyduck and Chikorita also start with that

[lofty crow]

Thankfully slowbro gets dumped, always wondered what you like about him xD

[torn whale]

I like the ingredient not the mon lol

Slowpoke is ass without it

[warm smelt]

Insane drop

[lofty crow]

I wouldnt put into consideration most of the lvl30 things. We are far from getting those i assume

[torn whale]

I mean yeah, but it is something important to have down the line for sure

[lofty crow]

Doas anyone have a lvl30 already? How does the drop mechanic work? Is it another chance to drop the new ingredient. And it competes for dropchance with berries and ingredient1?

[warm smelt]

Poor Sableye

[torn whale]

It only spawns in the 4th area 💀

[warm smelt]

oh ☠️

I have a feeling it won't even be good

[blissful mortar]

Slowpoke probably can go up to C. Caccao at early levels is nice for pot if you have a good bro and tails are still really juicy. Dittos are very difficult to find and not much is known besides they can get tails and are slightly better than bros at it. I think access wise and still best ingredient you can move it up a nudgeeeee

Caccao/tail still is a great ingredient set

[glacial jasper]

But slowpoke can give 2&3 slot tails

While ditto only last slot

[tepid jungle]

Hi all. Very interesting reading. Although it's clear this is focused on grading Mons for their ultimate usefulness, is it possible to re-arrange the tier-lists based on 5-level increments? Those dominating the top-tier list seem more deep-game focused. These upper tier skills & game mechanics may not be achievable until specific level-ranges so it may help the community to separate them into level-tiers.

[vernal orbit]

how do you know ditto has only the third slot for tails ? it should be like every Mon and be slot 2&3 possible

[fickle perch]

there's been discussion of lv10 tiers that account for skills

[vernal orbit]

I think we alrdy talked about doing a lvl 10 tier list / early, so it should be available in a few days

[fickle perch]

imo they should be separated from the main tier

yep

[tepid jungle]

Definitely. Thanks for the consideration 🙂

[lunar current]

Wait, so now you just catch ditto to get slowpoke tails and that's it? Since ingredients are random, there is a chance that Ditto could get slow poke tails as the 1st ingredient?

[tardy knoll]

Nah I don't think rare ingredients can be 1st slot

[lunar current]

Also, Oran Berries were mainly collected with Slowpoke line and Squirtle line because of ingredients. If Slowpoke is trash, doesn't that bump the Squirtle line to be more important? Maybe the back of S-Tier?

[torn whale]

If you're after oran berries the best collector is Totodile

[torn whale]

What's so special about early cacao? It's mostly used in late game recipes

[lunar current]

I'm not after the berries, but to tick as many boxes with one mon as possible. Totodile doesn't really offer anything that others do.

Squirtle ticks the ingredient box and the Oran Berry box for me, hence the most useful if Slowpoke is trash now

[torn whale]

As mentioned in the pins, S tier's basically for exclusive drops atm. While Blastoise is the only ingredient mon that drops milk (which pushed it to the top of A), there's quite a few mons that also start with it. Eevee being the notable one that comes to mind

[lunar current]

To me it feels which ingredients I'm getting is random or at least I haven't figured out the pattern yet. Is there a list/spreadsheet which I didn't see regarding this?

[torn whale]

That's because lv30 and 60 ingredients are random

Ingredient ranges are, in order from starting to lv60:
Non-specialist: 1, 1-3, 2-5
Specialist: 2, 2-5, 3-8
It seems single stage mons can have an unusually high ingredient count at lv30, even greater than the above ranges. Will update once more info's gathered on this phenomenon

[lunar current]

aaaaaah, so only lvl 30 and 60 are random

So the "first" entry in any mon will always be guaranteed?

[torn whale]

Idk if it's ordered correctly for all the mons, but that's the assumption

[lunar current]

ok, that makes things a lot easier to organize

thank you

[blissful mortar]

caccao value is very high so using it as an additional ingredient is great after you hit your dishes main cap. Lategame the same is true while also being in a healthy chunk of dishes

151 point ingredient. bean sausage? 103. Honey? 101. Milk? 98. Apple? 90. It's like 50% more efficent than most stuff you will be finding at these early levels

And late game having a lot of caccao is more efficeint than ingredients like those to fill out pot space. I don't think early slowpoke is steller but if you have a good one could be worth it for dish shenanigans especially if you have a bad favorite berry week (or orans are favored and not much else)

[torn whale]

Idk whether that's enough to save it, the skill specialty with one of the worst main skills in the game really hurts

[blissful mortar]

And still tail access even if not unique now is still really comfy. Good bro's should still do well

[torn whale]

It's heavily dependant on helping speed and ingredient multipliers

[blissful mortar]

Ironically just get one with a good kit and no skill triggers it does fine lol. We also are not sure on complete value of energy. If it increases your chances of using skills it could be useful if meh

Yah help speed nature and helping M suddenly is a very good poke

Ingredient finder happy and obviously like globals

Idk i also think lookind at D tier is it really as bad as like leafon, umbreon, or wobbufett?

[torn whale]

Even if energy is incredibly useful, the skill itself still has the inherent problems of being random target and needing almost a dozen procs to affect the entire team

I actually considered it on par with Wobbuffet when putting it down there

[blissful mortar]

ig. I think the ingredient list is enough to not let bro be below B tier but i like get the distaste for kit and like meh frequency (not horrendous though it's pretty average)

[torn whale]

Oh there's also the abysmal carry limit. 10 for Slowbro and 11 for Slowking

[blissful mortar]

Bro is probably just slightly below average but I would put slowking like dead on average (frequency). It's really just an ingredient list thing for me and I think there's is one of the best in the game so it should be in B tier DESPITE the meh stats/skill.

It has bad stats and we had it in S tier but it dropped 4 tiers now that the niche is not a solo niche despite the niche being really good?

And ditto is pretty damn hard to find it's not an easy pokemon to find or catch

Most players will likely only have access to bro's to easily access tails, ditto is rare and it's not a guarantee for tails either even if it probably high rolls way harder

[torn whale]

Being the only mon with that niche is what defined Slowpoke. Ditto does that remarkably better even if you don't have an optimal build, which is practically necessary for Slow

[lunar current]

I'd rather wait for a Ditto than spend resources on a Slowpoke just get a boost

[torn whale]

As for early game cacao, if that's good enough to raise a mon by a tier that'd mean Golduck also goes up

[blissful mortar]

I'd rather catch bro's and go through like 5 or 6 to find a pretty good one then catch dittos and go through like 3 to find one that offers tails. Ditto is rare af and hard to catch. It's way less accesable

[torn whale]

You'd be lucky to get a good slow from just that few catches tbh

[blissful mortar]

Imagine how much harder it would be for ditto to make sure it rolls tails and not have shitter skills too 😛

High roll is there but it's not easy to get that mon

[lunar current]

carry limit already makes Ditto better even if both Ditto and Slowpoke have trash skills

[blissful mortar]

10-11 versus 13 if I caught a bro/king.

15-16 if I evolved a slowpoke

Capacity should go to bro line you would be preferably catching them as slowpokes and turning them into bro's/kings

[lunar current]

IDK, I kinda have to agree with Azul, even though not everyone has the patients to wait for a Ditto since resources are not infinite

[blissful mortar]

Slowking also gathers faster than ditto

[torn whale]

Uh it wouldn't be? Slowpoke has the same roll for tails, while needing optimal nature and at least 3 of the ingredient and helping speed skills to make up for the specialty

[blissful mortar]

Slowking has more helping speed than ditto (and slowbro a little less) but like whatevs

[torn whale]

But many of the drops are much less likely to be ingredients in comparison, so effective helping speed would be worse than it appears

[blissful mortar]

Slowking off a poke has 16 capacity and 56:40 base frequency while ditto has 13 capacity and 58:20 frequency. Very minor either way but obviously king is at least strictly better.

I think it's a negligeable difference but exact impacts of frequency unown

We need to know if stage 1's have an ingredient buff

Caccao-tail-tail is better than oil-tail-tail

[torn whale]

A couple minutes difference, and in that time Ditto has a much higher chance of dropping Tails. There's no contest that Ditto is the better ingredient gatherer

[blissful mortar]

We don't know if ditto is strictly better on numbers yet

[torn whale]

When you're at the stage of being able to collect tails the first ingredient is made irrelevant

[blissful mortar]

We only saw 3 tails at level 60

and that could exist on poke but idk

Maybe there is stage 1 secret sauce as well

[blissful mortar]

and this

[torn whale]

You could say the same thing abt Ditto having more drops than 3

[blissful mortar]

Right but i wouldn't slam ditto into S cause data unown

It is like rightfully comparable but we don't know if the absol thing is unique or extends to other stage 1's

that is just a theory at best

[torn whale]

Y'know stage 1 refers to the middle stage of evolutions? It goes base, stage 1, stage 2

[blissful mortar]

Slowking has a better potential optimal setup in caccao-tail-tail, is easier to catch multiple of, and has better frequency and capacity. Neither skill is useful even if ditto's is better. The only thing that should shake it up we don't know for a fact yet

eh sure

Pokemon that don't evolve bias whatever. xD

i gotcha i actually forgot that

[torn whale]

I hard disagree with point 1. You're exclusively looking at the ingredient drops, factoring in the specialty flips that on its head

[blissful mortar]

Like ditto might have secret sauce might not we don't know but slowking/bro stand on their own merits as ingredient mons to not be in shit tier despite their horrible ability. We have mons like ttar and victreebell that also have the shit ability like why not make them D since kanto starters better. Slowbro has one of the best ingredient lists still

It's not wow, but it's not scraping bottom of the barrel like D tier is

[torn whale]

Ttar and Victree's skills aren't shit imo. They actually have synergy with their roles, and provide self-sufficiency keeping their energy up without having to rely on Jiggly support

[blissful mortar]

I'm hard pressed to believe a pokemon with the best ingredient and fourth best ingreedient is worst of the worst

[torn whale]

Way better than the random charge energies

[blissful mortar]

especially when they are like 3x and 1.5x more effective ingredients than most ingredients things find

here is chart for ingredients btw just to look at values

Anyways I need to go my opinion is pretty clear I think they deserve middle tier and I need to do some stuff sitting here trying to argue it in different ways isn't gonna be productive xD. Second best at the thing and the thing is really good it just is held back by kit aka I think B tier with other mons that are decent but held back are kinda tiered right now. D tier is just... this mon doesn't work tier

err not B

up to C tier

idk if that was clear maybe I was calling C tier B this whole time if so my bad. I uh.... have been arguing for C tier

wait

Yah I keep saying B tier FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF sorry azul

[torn whale]

As someone who actually used a skill specialist stage 1 mon, the rate of ingredient generation without any multipliers is absolutely appalling, you only generate ingredients a couple times a day

[blissful mortar]

3 caccao in a day is equivalent to 6 milk from squirtle 😛 Squirtle makes dish but points stands for extra ingredient density.

A help speed setup bro is totally legit imo

if just C tier

[torn whale]

Where Slowpoke is making 3 cacao Squirtle's dropping well over a dozen milk

[blissful mortar]

Squirtle is dropping 2 milk to slowpokes 1 caccao and 1 caccao is worth 2 milk as bonus ingredients

[torn whale]

2 words, ingredient specialist

[blissful mortar]

I don't think rates are actually different for ingredient specialists when checking#1135034240581509222

It's just they drop 2x and have higher ingredient ranges

[torn whale]

It's not 2 milk to 1 cacao, it's more like 4 if not 6 to one just bc of the specialty

[blissful mortar]

We'll be arguing with slightly unconfirmed but suggested data so I don't want to weigh it too hard. I am fairly sure ingredient specialst only affects quantity but not proc chance

But I won't 100% die on that hill because we are sussing out the data as we speak

[torn whale]

Just from regular gameplay I've been seeing a noticeable increase in ingredient drop rate comparing the two specialties

[blissful mortar]

Like a squirtle should have the same chance at 2 milk as a poke does to 1 caccao

but we need to confirm

You get quantity so you will have a higher # so it is hard to guage when just doing regular play

And something like squirtle is backbone to making dishes so you need quantity

[torn whale]

I mean the quantity is isolated from frequency, how would that make it any harder to gauge?

[blissful mortar]

What the data in the other thread is checking is how much you have after hitting capacity essentially

So like, out of 10 capacity how much milk did you find?

That's something we could sus out a bit

And then compare, take into 2x ingredient or 2x berries into account and get rough odds

[torn whale]

Isn't that useless when it comes to ingredients? iirc only berries only preserve value from going over max

[blissful mortar]

It's not talking about overflow. Talking about capacity. Overflow we are tracking for something else

Berries and ingredients both count towards capacity

10 capacity could hold 2 berries and 8 milk or 8 berries and 2 milk. We can sorta use it to find odds with enough of a sample size

If you scroll through and take account that berries are 2x or ingredients are 2x the odds don't immediately seem different (but there could be minor differences) but we are waiting for sample size basically rn

[torn whale]

Well for this to generate accurate results you need to know the exact effect energy has on drops for one

[blissful mortar]

Energy i am 99.99% sure doesn't affect drops. Might affect skill, but I am totally fine assuming energy doesn't affect drop chance.

Could call that a dumb assumption but I think it's totally fair. Idk if you collect from low energy mons but I do collect throughout the day and I don't notice any big diff in drop rates. I still get eggs from dying swable or berries from dying manders it's been pretty normal amounts

(personal bias there)

Anyways I really do need to go though (not that I dislike working through some discussion).

[blissful mortar]

I would still look at these values and even compare to ingredient mons even if your working under rules that ingredient specialists have higher drop % not just quantity and consider. It is your tier list though and I don't want to try and take that away.

[torn whale]

The tier update was made shortly after I woke up in my defense, so my thoughts would likely change down the line

[blissful mortar]

ye. I was arguing for C not B so that probably was also a jump lmao

Slowbro hard to judge I may over value it. It's so weeeeeeeird.

Could just untier it for now

[lofty crow]

Can confirm this. If you have energy there is no change to drop mechanic

[blissful mortar]

Talking about LOW energy affecting drop

which may affect our data in main thread

[lofty crow]

There is only NO energy. And more-than-0 energy.

[blissful mortar]

Drop rates ye. Question is drop %.

If it exists i think it is miniscule but doubt it exists at all

Like does low energy mean more berry but less ingredient

[lofty crow]

You mean distribution of berries vs ingredients?

[blissful mortar]

ye

Does a mon at 0 energy drop less % ingredients

[lofty crow]

I highly doubt it being linked to energy state….

But who knows

[blissful mortar]

Me too it seems like a very weird correlation without anything to actually point towards it, BUT yah who knows

like maybe game could be weird in that way

[lofty crow]

Do we have data on awake drop rate at 0%? Does anything happen? I mean is dropping things just turned off then?

[blissful mortar]

It's been guesstamated your gathering in general is cut in half

[blissful mortar]

It feels very sluggish and slow and that feels right but no hard number values known tmk

[lofty crow]

Need to stay awake long enough to get to this state first for tests lol😆

[blissful mortar]

Make an alt on bluestacks and never sleep