#How I think Sixth Sense could be improved upon.

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

inland cedar
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As we may know, this Joker has the ability of "If first hand of round is a single 6, destroy it and create a Spectral card
(Must have room)".

The problem with this ability is that the requirement is too narrow, which would require you to be lucky or build towards 6s (6s aren't that useful to build around).

I think this can be solved by making the requirement less narrow by making it require you to either play a single 6 or two 3s (because 3rd eye and 3+3=6) for the first hand of the round.

Now, I chose two 3s instead of one because what is in parentheses earlier but also because it causes a split where you can either build towards high card and 6s or pair and 3s, and the other thing is that it is a bit harder to get two 3s in a unmodified deck than one 6.

I would like to hear what you think.

Sixth_Sense.webp
golden saddle
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sixth sense is fine as is

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giving you spectrals and deckfixing at once is good already

slow crescent
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its a conditional deck fixing joker with a neat bonus

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the 6s limit is fine and reasonable

golden saddle
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discarding a few times to find 1 six isn't too hard

slow crescent
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also sixth sense is not a joker that gets bad if you fail to use it first round

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its much more an opportunity arises type deal than other jokers but thats fine

silent bramble
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its fine as is 💔

slow crescent
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ive seen this post style for chicot here twice now

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just because a joker is not top tier doesnt make it terrible. hell sixth sense is incredibly fun

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and being an average fun joker is good

inland cedar
slow crescent
slow crescent
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best deckfixing joker in the game imo

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apart from like vagabond

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why the hell does a practically free consistent card removal source give you money on top of the good effect

inland cedar
slow crescent
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sixth sense being a hybrid spectral gen and deckfixing joker is more fun than it being purely spectrals

inland cedar
slow crescent
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im not the biggest fan of half the spectrals being very bad. apart from the seals and immolate the other spectrals are situational or just extremely bad (without hologram)

slow crescent
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trading card is just juiced l

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the empty slot thing is something i mentioned for a reason

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if you cant afford to play into non scoring jokers even the best ones have to be skipped

mild mist
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sixth sense buff idea:

if the first played hand of round is one 6, destroy it and create a spectral card (must have room)

gilded swan
inland cedar
# slow crescent removing 4 cards over time isnt bad

Well, you run into a problem there. It isn't that hard to get a 6 if you have four 6s in the deck, but each time you do it the harder it is to get a 6 because a 6 is removed each time.

This makes both aspects of the Joker progressively worse because now you remove cards at a much slower rate and you produce Spectral cards at a lower rate. This goes to the point where Sixth Sense is not very useful as a Joker.

By then you have to switch to Séance for the Spectral cards (if you built towards a straight flush build), glass enhancement or Trading card for deck fixing (which Sixth Sense gets useless much faster than Trading Card like 3x or 4x more fast where it needs to be 2.5x as fast), or just a Joker more beneficial to your build.

And if you say add more 6s to the deck then that is counter intuitive to it being a deck fixing card as you are adding the type of card you are removing.

inland cedar
half jackal
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Sixth Sense is pretty alright as is, it doesn’t need a buff like this (besides maybe blueprint functionality?) If you actually want it to be a spectral-generating joker then you can very easily keep feeding it via DNA, Strength, standard packs, etc. It’s kinda crazy to say it’s worse than Seance given that you can pretty consistently draw and add more sixes

And if you just wanna remove 4 cards and also have some upside to it then that also works too, I take it when I got nothing better to do with that slot

mild mist
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if everything is below average, then where does the average come from?

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the point of creating more 6s being counter-intuitive also doesn't make sense because you're effectively turning strengths into delayed hanged men

half jackal
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Yea exactly, and if you want it to keep getting spectrals it’s really easy to keep fueling it

inland cedar
mild mist
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?

half jackal
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Slightly below average compared to what

inland cedar
mild mist
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why change something for being slightly below average?

half jackal
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You can’t really compare it to all jokers in a meaningful way, cause if you need spectrals then it’s good at making spectrals - that’s its niche. It’s not a meaningful comparison to compare it to a scoring joker for example

mild mist
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hell i'd say that 6th sense is around the middle 5th of the jokers in terms of general quality

half jackal
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Like what would it even mean if Smeared Joker is better than Sixth Sense, it’s a pointless thing outside of an arbitrary tier list

mild mist
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well being generally worse than a joker with niche utility would be a problem but i'm pretty sure that's not what she means

inland cedar
mild mist
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well making deckfixing easier and making seals (specially blue seals) easier to obtain is going to leave a big impact on a run

half jackal
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Personally I’d say that spectrals overall have huge potential to warp a run, given that blue seals can win the run on the spot but also cryptid and immolate giving great deck fixing

untold sigil
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If you want to make a better deck fixing-based joker then rework Erosion. If you want to make a better spectral generator then rework Seance

mild mist
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i'd rework seance instead

inland cedar
untold sigil
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Why the hell did i type sixth sense

mild mist
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you're doobid that's why

untold sigil
inland cedar
mild mist
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drawing both in the same round is very unlikely still

untold sigil
mild mist
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and it wouldn't change the fact that most deck manipulating spectrals kinda hurt straight builds

inland cedar
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It is more about more opportunity than chance really.

gilded swan
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There is no more reliable rate for spectral generation in the game in most cases so sixth sense cannot be below average, your 'average' spectral generation would be happening upon packs in the shop (ghost deck notwithstanding) and sixth sense obviously far surpasses that

mild mist
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it would be better to compare this joker to other value generators

inland cedar
inland cedar
mild mist
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i can say that about half of the value generators are worse

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i'd rather take 6th sense over business card or anything worse

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it sounds more like you don't see the value in being able to remove cards of a rank without many other synergies on top of getting consumables for it

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needing to use 1 hand is a reasonable cost for this that would also be used by any other rank-dependent econ joker that isn't cloud 9

inland cedar
mild mist
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?

gilded swan
# inland cedar I mean that is like saying it is reliable under specific circumstances such as h...

Really you're supposed to have the funds to crack open standard packs anyway but strength and death also work very well and aren't hard to find, no need to outright add sixes to get good value off of it. Even if you are adding sixes, 1) if you are searching for a specific spectral adding sixes is often a small price to pay, and 2) the problem of bloating the deck with sixes sorts itself with the card destruction

mild mist
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i can very consistently trigger it atleast thrice per run

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that's more value than a hanged man

inland cedar
gilded swan
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The only way you're generating unique spectrals more frequently is setting up for straight flushes and copying Séance but obviously sixth sense is night and day easier to get active than that, really it is the apex of spectral generation in most cases and that's okay, it really doesn't need to be any easier to get spectrals in your inventory

inland cedar
gilded swan
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Reliability is the most valuable thing on high stakes

inland cedar
fast whale
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Sixth sense is ok, it's niche but a consistent-ish value generator in the early game that you sell after 2 or 3 rounds

inland cedar
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One thing I forgot to metion is that it is a Uncommon.

inland cedar
fast whale
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Huh, y'know what I'll give you that, it should be common

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I was remembering it being common

mild mist
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rarity isn't directly proportional to quality anyways

inland cedar
kind mason
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i feel like yall did not contest the idea that sixth sense is a joker that can or should be built around enough

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bc

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no its not

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it is very rare that you get a run where you actually build around sixth sense

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and thats fine, that's not what it's meant to be as a joker

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sixth sense's purpose is to provide you some quick, easy deckfixing with the chance of hitting a good spectral

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and it does its job really well

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the amount of short-term value sixth sense provides is very good

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obviously, in exchange for its long term playability

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id also say that people make this same assumption with seance and thus overrate how bad it is but seance is actually bad so i wont argue

inland cedar
inland cedar
inland cedar
silent bramble
kind mason
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im not sure what you're talking about, if you use your discards wisely, you can easily get rid of all 4 of your base sixes in like 2 antes

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which, in terms of spectral card generation, is very fast

kind mason
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sixth sense costs $6 in shop

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and, with decent value, lets say you get rid of 3 sixes before selling sixth sense

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each 6 removed is ~half of a hanged man

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and spectral cards are also generated

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so, from the base cost of the joker, as well as losing the money from the hands you're playing, that's $9 overall

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however, with spectral cards costing $4 in the shop (iirc, havent played ghost deck in a while, it could be 5) and arcana cards costing $3, that would be $12 of value from spectrals, and $4.5 of value from arcanas

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+$3 from selling it (which you should be doing), that makes up $19.5 of value

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so in total, sixth sense should be giving you $10.5 worth of value, essentially double what you paid for

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all in the span of like 3 rounds

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that sounds like good value to me

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not to mention the potential of things like trance and immolate

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obviously, the mathematical cost isnt the best way to determine the value of a joker but

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saying that it 'doesnt generate enough value' is just blatantly wrong

inland cedar
kind mason
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ok but like

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think about how many spectral packs you see in an average run

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maybe like 2 or 3 on a good run?

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being able to get that many spectral cards fairly consistently, relatively quickly, and with additional deckfixing even if the cards you get are bad?

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i mean thats good

inland cedar
kind mason
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why is that relevant like at all here?

inland cedar
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Spectral cards.

kind mason
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yeah but what does that have to do with sixth sense?

inland cedar
inland cedar
# kind mason being able to get that many spectral cards fairly consistently, relatively quick...

You say you can get a Spectral pack 2-3 times in a good run, so assuming each time it is spread out evenly in a run you are garenteed one by at least the end of Ante 4 and at most somewhere during ante 3.

You can make it quick at the cost of spending more money, but most of the time you pursue adding 6s you get nothing from the pack and you can get a Spectral that isn't useful. Which means you are spending more value than what your getting (aka Net Loss).

kind mason
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as for the second, you bring up a more interesting point

inland cedar
kind mason
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trying to maximize sixes with sixth sense can provide more loss than benefit, as you lose out on other things you could be getting from packs in pursuit of random spectrals

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which, yeah that is true

inland cedar
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Not to metion Sixth Sense costs $6 itself.

kind mason
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however, this aligns fully with my point about sixth sense: youre not meant to build around it

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sure, you can use strength and death to get more value out of it if you want, but thats not often what's best

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its a joker that gets its value and then is sold

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and that value it gives you is strong enough to be worth it

inland cedar
kind mason
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well seance is substantially worse, as it doesnt provide any innate deckfixing, and straight flushes are much harder to play with any sort of consistency when compared to single sixes

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but thats not really a great comparison considering seance is like bottom 5 jokers in the game

gilded swan
inland cedar
gilded swan
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To Do List can whiff on you far easier than Sixth Sense can

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Finding your sixes is far more within your control than hoping the list picks out a playable hand for you. Of course if you hold onto the list for a while you're very likely to get these playable hands a fair few times but again sixth sense isn't a joker designed to be held onto for a long time so the comparison is flawed

inland cedar
gilded swan
inland cedar
gilded swan
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Sell price also makes up for the hand you sunk into playing the six if it's a bad spectral

gilded swan
inland cedar
inland cedar
gilded swan
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You don't need to get more sixes to make use of the joker

kind mason
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thats the whole point

gilded swan
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I was only talking in terms of getting more sixes since it's being made out to be a lot harder than it is but at the end of the day it really isn't necessary

inland cedar
# kind mason thats the whole point

Yeah, but my point is that is it in its current state worth it as a value generator? Should you be able to get 2 more uses in the short term? Should you have more opportunities in the short term?

gilded swan
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At a base level even if we are talking in terms of spectral generation, 4 shots at immolate or blue, purple, golden seals (even red has a fair bit of potential with gold cards) is a pretty good deal

kind mason
inland cedar
gilded swan
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Blueprint takes a single sentence of explanation and a single word to clarify whether it can copy the joker to the right or not. This just adds more text to the joker and takes it off-theme when it doesn't need a change in the first place

kind mason
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if sixth sense really needs a buff, the best thing to do would be to remove the 'first hand' restriction

inland cedar
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3rd Eye and Six senses aren't related I guess.

kind mason
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but still, thats not needed

gilded swan
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Not seeing any calls for 8 Ball to work with two fours I'll say that much

inland cedar
inland cedar
gilded swan
# inland cedar Honestly, I will admit that is a good idea.

Yeah it is the most sensible suggestion but by the time you have a hard time finding your sixes without using your hands as discards, sixth sense will have already put in a good shift hence the clarification as to why it isn't a needed change

inland cedar
gilded swan
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I dunno, still yet to see any argument that holds any water as to why sixth sense doesn't produce a lot of value, fact of the matter is there are other value generators that could actually use improvement, delayed gratification on blue stake+ (blue stake change will probably rectify that), séance, matador needs more clarification as to where it does and doesn't work, maybe another I'm forgetting about

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Plenty of things worth talking about before suggesting changes for what we've proven to be a solid joker

spark owl
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Not every joker needs to be built to keep forever

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Not that it's amazing right now, but I think it's in a fine place.

inland cedar
# gilded swan I dunno, still yet to see any argument that holds any water as to why sixth sens...

It produces not enough value in terms of Spectral generation and the process of handling that generation after you already got rid of three 6s for most runs is too costly for a good bit of the time.

It is outclassed by hanged men in terms of deck fixing as you can get and use 2 of those faster than what Sixth sense gets rid off in that time.

In terms of Spectral generation it doesn't provide any reason not to go for Omen Globe Voucher instead other than short-term gain that isn't that very short-term.

inland cedar
gilded swan
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You are still yet to define what the baseline for "enough" spectral value is

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They're obviously intended to be tough to find and with that in mind sixth sense produces them incredibly quickly and reliably, it seems to me what you're suggesting is just more common spectral cards from a single source which would seem to go against the whole intent of the things

spark owl
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wellll, that's not a terrible idea. Maybe they could be a little bit easier to play with in decks besides ghost deck

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but i don't think this is it

gilded swan
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Yeah it's more so that with this in the game's current state sixth sense would pump out far more unique spectrals than any other source in the game barring ghost deck, it's much better that they're difficult to come upon across the board than difficult to come across with one exception (again barring ghost deck)

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This is while sixth sense is already the best spectral production you're usually gonna get by my reckoning

gilded swan
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The only thing you can do to influence getting omen globe is having crystal ball and voucher skipping but I think we can all agree you shouldn't be voucher skipping for omen globe in ante 8 gold stake

inland cedar
# gilded swan The only thing you can do to influence getting omen globe is having crystal ball...

One such way is running out the options for the game to pull from, another is the extra voucher skip tag (which skip tags are only valuable early on) but that also just plays into the previous one, or the other option is the glitch where you can get both Crystal Ball and Omen Globe within the same shop session (does require to run the game on the slowest speed, Extra voucher skip tag, and clicking the first voucher preemptively).

inland cedar
gilded swan
undone coyote
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Damn you really hate that six sense guy aren’t you

inland cedar
untold sigil
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Not every joker has to be good