Dealer (Common)

[bright gull]

Gains +50 chips if whole hand adds to 21

[alpine pivot]

no. scaling 50 chips per hand??? WHAT

[gusty briar]

21 what? 21 chips, 21 score 21 savage, or 21 from cards

[fathom niche]

obviously the ranks

[grave hill]

that seems insane

if its ranks that actually seems ridiculous since most chip scalers need only 150 to br worth

this is faster than wee

[glass roost]

I think something with 21 would be a good idea

+50 chips is too many though

I don't want another square joker situation though where its too slow to make any meaningful difference.

What if this was superposition's replacement: "Creates a tarot card if sum of card ranks in poker hand is exactly 21"

[west flame]

Exactly 21

[grave hill]

square joker is not bad

its really solid consistent chip scaling

[glass roost]

but imo it's a bit too slow

[grave hill]

it has no real requirment to it

[west flame]

Exactly 21 and retriggers counts as more ranks

[grave hill]

obviously its outdone by other options

square helped me win runs its great

[glass roost]

I don't think retriggers should count
I think it should just be the sum of scoring ranks

[grave hill]

but how would you count the face ranks

[glass roost]

10

[grave hill]

so its easier to say base card chips add up to 21

still dont like this since its an extremely fast scaler

[glass roost]

I just didn't want confusion from bonus cards and hiker

[west flame]

Maybe make this 5 card hand?

Eh 50 chips is still way too strong

[grave hill]

i think 50 chips per scaled trigger is just way too much that giving it a fair trigger would make it the seance trap.

cant make it too easy to scale but now if you can scale it you dont need it

[glass roost]

where the trigger is so specific that the reward is not worth it?

[grave hill]

btw it really isnt. square is 16 chips per round with nothing that might stop you from scaling it usually

[grave hill]

yep

[west flame]

Is this finally the 7 synergy we've been waiting for

[glass roost]

what if it was, say, 5 or 10 chips per 21?

[west flame]

3 oak 7s

[stable wagon]

that’s 2 wee hits
but then again square is common

[grave hill]

square is common and rank and draw independent

its fine

[stable wagon]

what if it didn’t scale and just gave 21 mult

[west flame]

x21 mult

[stable wagon]

squares fine wee is just unusually strong

[glass roost]

I know we aren't supposed to make jokers that unlock special hands, but what if there was a hand type created by scoring precisely 21 base chips

[grave hill]

wee is fine balance wise its a rare with a specific rank

[glass roost]

+21 mult if base chips of all scoring cards add to 21

[grave hill]

this one is play a hand where the ranks are 21 and you outscale wee

on a common

[stable wagon]

yea, would that work?

[stable wagon]

peak

[glass roost]

maybe, makes it a good early-game joker

[stable wagon]

it scales more than wee joker with 5oak 2s

[west flame]

Make wee +8 mult per 2 scored

[quasi garnet]

Then it is just sort of worse than half joker.

[stable wagon]

it would be a more finicky half joker yes
but it wouldn’t have psychic vulnerability

[quasi garnet]

That's one boss and you don't usually build around flat mult jokers.

[stable wagon]

so?
you absolutely can build around flat +mult
you can have holographic edition as your +mult

there’s nothing wrong with it being slightly worse in some respects than a good joker
if it’s trickier to use but more flexible, i think it’s okay

not every joker needs to be a build centerpiece, not every joker is made equal, and sidegrades are fine

[queen adder]

Yes, but not near meaningless side-grade

This wouldn't excel in different archetypes, wouldn't be any stronger, and has a much more annoying criteria to meet compared to half jonkler

[stable wagon]

compared to half it’s
-harder to use
-more flexible
I don’t really see a problem

not every joker needs to excel in a specific build archetype

and there’s no reason for it to “be any stronger” than an existing joker, that’s poor design

[queen adder]

• more flexible MEANS easier to use??? Or has more usecases, which out of what I've thought of and seen in this chat; the only reason we've found The Psychic and thats it. 21 ain't divisible by 4 or 5; and for Full Houses, you'd need 3s over 4s (33344) for it to work, and nothing else.

It isnt more flexible, in any way but 1 boss.

And i think you misunderstood what I meant in that last point; if you have two Jokers competing for the same niche (which in this case it basically is; small hands that you can choose to/must use filler with.) The less flexible and less consistent one has to be stronger, or it's a poor design as you aren't properly weighing risk vs reward

[stable wagon]

no, like
more flexible as in you can do more stuff than pair 3oak hc

[queen adder]

Just realized I forgot to do the math for straights so my first point doesn't matter as it depends how many straights hit it

[stable wagon]

it doesn’t work with any straights unless you do funny 4f/shortcut stuff

[queen adder]

The only thing this opens up for is 1 possible full house (33344) and straights which I didn't math out for

[stable wagon]

but it works with flushes for instance which half could never

[queen adder]

Flushes?

[stable wagon]

I don’t think the cards all gotta score

[queen adder]

Ah yeah

2, 3, 4, 5, 7

[queen adder]

Then it only has two pair and sometimes (4s and below) 4oak; as they're the only hand you can use unscoring cards in that half jokrr doesn't alr work with, straights don't, full house has exactly 1 combo, and 5oak+ physically can't reach it

Idk I feel like this would work better as a non-scoring joker

[stable wagon]

I view it as more flexible in the sense that you can combine it with more different builds
flush (low), straight (with 4f/sc), house (only a few), 4oak (low rank), 2p (mid-low ranks)

[queen adder]

I rucked up my math for house it's 2 possible full houses get there btw my bad lol

[stable wagon]

what does house have for this again
55533, 33366

[stable wagon]

potentially yea
what sorta effect puts it on par with other stuff tho

[queen adder]

I guess so yeah, but when it's so restrictive on ranks (flush must be 1 off from a flush house, 2-7, skipping 6,) straights needing other jokers, 4oak needing low ranks and a high rank to go unscored, it just seems like alot of work for minimal payout

[stable wagon]

it could be “create a tarot” but idk how superposition would feel about that

[queen adder]

Yeah that's all I could find

Above i said 33344 but I meant 6s lol

[stable wagon]

another possibility to make this more usable is for aces to count as 1 or 11 towards its total, like how they work in blackjack which is pretty clearly the inspiration

[queen adder]

Hm

Yeah maybe

That'd be a big help to larger hands

[stable wagon]

if aces can count as 1 for its total it might actually be worthwhile

[queen adder]

Yeah, I think you found a good balancing point there tbh

It makes it easier to trigger, but less dependant on the same hands Half does; which removes the issue of their direct competition

And atp I think 21 mult is fair for playing any hand with specific ranks

[stable wagon]

that might put it at a comfortable spot of being a decent dose of mult with more options but less ease of use than half

[queen adder]

Its a common so we want it to be flexible in terms of when you want thjs

This is for builds that have either deckfixing or leveled hands but not both

[stable wagon]

or like
really really specific deckfixing :3

[queen adder]

(Since deckfixing for a certain hand makes 21 harder; you have more room to wiggle if you know what hand but not what rank or vice versa) so IMO this is a solid spot for a common mult Joker

[queen adder]

Truuuuu

[thin oracle]

I'm ok with square joker

It can feel a bit boring at times

And it's incompatible with a bunch of the cool builds

[stable wagon]

^
no straight builds without 4f :(

[grave hill]

thats just what happens when gold stake incentivizes pairs

tell me one build besides pairs where youd want green joker rather than planet scaling

until blue stake gets reworked jokers locking you into pairs isnt a real downside

[thin oracle]

Yeah that's true

[grave hill]

i think jokers locking you into pairs is perfectly fine if you wanna use them

the issue is blue stake requiring deckfixing for bigger hands to exist

[stable wagon]

pair meta is sad

[grave hill]

yeah but blaming jokers instead of the main culprit (blue stake its just blue stake)

is a bad take imo

square jokers downside is needing smaller hands (3 and 4 of a kind dont need scaling jokers if you use them especially 4) but right now bigger hands are hard to play and usually unsafe

[stable wagon]

it’s not the jokers it’s every factor in one
pairs are most of why blue seals are busted and blue seals in turn make pairs that much better
so many jokers work well with pairs without any commitment requirements
and -1 discard makes everything else worse

[grave hill]

well id honestly see how blue stake changes things when reworked and some of the joker buffs (thunk is probably gonna make some 5 card hand jokers stronger or introduce new ones)

[stable wagon]

if you’re gonna run straights you need shortcut, if you’re gonna run flushes you need smeared, and if you’re gonna run 4/5oak you need fixing

[grave hill]

flushes are fine without smeared tbf

[stable wagon]

consistency is a killer

[stable wagon]

that’s true lol

[grave hill]

ok for straights and flushed the discard adds a lot but 4 of a kind was never meant to be consistent even with 3 discards lol

even without blue stake its gonna need fixing and thats fine

[stable wagon]

although pulling two flushes which some builds rely on is pretty tough without

[stable wagon]

full house joker when

[grave hill]

i think we went off topic from the suggestion huh

[stable wagon]

I think the problem still applies
it’s a big hand, and big hand types suck compared to pairs with blue stake’s effect
but yeah it also sucks in other regards

[grave hill]

yeah basically id rather see how blue stake and new joker messes with things before claiming pairs are better off not meta

i want pairs still as good but other hands being able to catch up

thats all

[stable wagon]

ok uh
you see, this is all coming full circle, because playing ranks summing to 21 is much easier with small hands like pairs 👍

[grave hill]

nerfing a consistent option to make other options look better is scummy and i dont want it

[stable wagon]

buff the other options yes
I would appreciate if pairs were ever so slightly less easy to win with, even if it’s only so much as adding a couple jokers that don’t mesh with pairs

[neon pike]

If it just didn't scale that would be fine

[zealous halo]

21 savage

[rotund fiber]

Literally every chip joker is better than this

[zealous halo]

You misread it

[acoustic chasm]

No literally every chip joker is worse than this it's ridiculously OP

It doesn't even say scoring

Play an ace and any face or 10 and you gain a permanent 50 chips

[zealous halo]

Splash and this makes no mult possible I think

With bp and brainstorm

[junior bone]

Ive seen 21 jokers based off of blackjack in one week, we need an unwritten rule about it

[rotund fiber]

No i didn't

It's the worst designed

[zealous halo]

Oh

I thought you meant in terms of power

[rotund fiber]

I did im just ragebaiting you

[zealous halo]

Okay

[rotund fiber]

Sorry i lied