#Reversed Tarot Cards

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robust parrot
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Reversed Tarot Cards are a popular suggestion. Everyone gives this a whack at some point, so here's my try. It is a pretty reasonable idea, and captures another element of the source inspiration. (Even if it against the Unwritten Rules.)

Most implementations of this idea just simply list 22 new card effects, generally related to the original effect in some way. I'm going to attempt to keep things a little bit fresh, by instituting a slightly different manner of use.

Reversed Tarot Cards in divination typically represent the original interpretation being blocked somehow, and generally the person being read is responsible for but unaware of or unable to address it. So with this in mind, I suggest that Reversed Tarot cards do not have a "Use" mechanism. They should trigger automatically based on some sort of event, which consumes the card. They are otherwise normal consumables. When appearing in a Tarot pack, they can be taken, but only if you have room.

Reversed Tarot Cards appear at 5% (or so) the rate of Upright Tarot. Upright Fools copy reversed Tarots as their upright version. If a Reversed Tarot is triggered it is consumed, even if it does nothing. Reversed Tarot Cards block other Reversed Tarot Cards from spawning, additionally upright (e.g.) Fool blocks a reversed Fool and vice versa (and so on), unless Showman is active.

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0. Fool
Upright - New beginnings.
Reversed - Recklessness, lack of hope or faith
Suggest - When another consumable is used, generate two random reversed tarot cards or spectral cards. (Black Hole and Soul excluded, bypasses Reversed Tarot limit, bypasses consumables limit).

1. Magician
Upright - You have the skills to make things happen.
Reversed - Others might be manipulating you.
Suggest - When an effect would roll a 1 in N probability, this effect is instead guaranteed to occur.

2. High Priestess
Upright - Intuition, truth in dreams
Reversed - neglecting one's own needs to please others
Suggest - When a planet card is purchased, create two negative copies of it.

3. Empress
Upright - Empathy, compassion, motherhood
Reversed - Neglect or suppression of the above
Suggest - When a consumable is sold, generate three negative copies of that consumable. (Except reversed empress)

4. Emperor
Upright - Concentration, Masculinity, Stubborn
Reversed - Abuse of authority
Suggest - When a hand triggers a boss blind (same check as matador), disable the boss blind after the hand is scored.

5. Hierophant
Upright - Institutions, Tradition
Reversed - Non-conformity
Suggest - When a 5 card high card hand is played, adds 15 bonus chips to each card held in hand

6. Lovers
Upright - Unions, Harmony, Love
Reversed - Conflict, Imbalance
Suggest - When a hand is played with 4 suits scored, generates a random tag.

7. Chariot
Upright - victory, overcoming obstacles, ambition
Reversed - coercion, powerlessness, lack of self control
Suggest - When purchasing a voucher, another is spawned and immediately purchased (may go over debt limit)

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8. Strength
Upright - courage, overcoming self-doubt, control
Reversed - vulnerability, lack of confidence
Suggest - When cards are discarded, discarded cards are destroyed

9. Hermit
Upright - self-reflection, solitude, enlightenment
Reversed - paranoia, isolation, withdrawal
Suggest - When player has 0 jokers, grants $50

10. Wheel of Fortune
Upright - good luck, destiny, fate, upheaval, chance
Reversed - bad luck, disorder, lack of control, disruption
Suggest - When hand is played, scored cards are given random editions, 1 in 2 chance to destroy played card instead.

11. Justice
Upright - Law, Truth, Honesty, Cause and Effect
Reversed - Unfairness, Corruption, Karmic Retribution
Suggest - When a hand is played, scored cards are returned to hand after a new hand is drawn.

12. Hanged Man
Upright - Trapped, uncertainty, need to walk away
Reversed - discontentment, apathy, self-caused
Suggest - When cards are drawn to hand, remove enhancements, seals, and editions and grant $10 for each removed.

13. Death
Upright - change, tumult
Reversed - resisting change, inability to move forward
Suggest - Upon beating a blind, ante -1, hand size -1 (increases as ectoplasm.)

14. Temperance
Upright - Balance, peace, moderation
Reversed - Excess, Discord
Suggest - When a card is added to the deck, also add four copies of it with consecutively increasing ranks. (e.g. if you purchase a red seal, lucky queen of Spades, this will also add a king, ace, 2, and 3 of spades, all red seal and lucky.)

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15. Devil
Upright - Secrecy, Obsession, Addiction
Reversed - Detachment, Independence, Freedom
Suggest - When at $0 and 0 jokers, generate two negative rare jokers

16. Tower
Upright - Chaos, Upheaval, Loss
Reversed - resisting change, averting disaster
Suggest - If would lose the blind from having 0 hands, grants +1 hand and +2 discards instead.

17. Star
Upright - Hope, Inspiration, Creativity
Reversed - boredom, monotony, focusing on negatives
Suggest - When removing random, targeted Joker create a new Joker of the same rarity (must have room) (Currently: XXXX) (selected upon obtaining card).

18. Moon
Upright - intuition, illusion, anxiety, misconceptions, insecurity
Reversed - self-deception, exposing secrets, truth, composure
Suggest - When a playing card is destroyed, remove enhancement from each stone card in hand, and convert to the suit and rank of the leftmost card held in hand.

19. Sun
Upright - Joy, Luck, Success, Vitality
Reversed - unrealistic expectations, sadness, pessimism
Suggest - When both effects of a lucky card trigger, permanently doubles the odds of that lucky card triggering either effect.

20. Judgment
Upright - Awakening, Renewal, Decisiveness
Reversed - Blaming unfairly, self-doubt, indecisive
Suggest - When skipping a booster pack, restock booster packs in the shop (unopened boosters are discarded).

21. World
Upright - Travel, Completion, Success
Reversed - disappointment, burden, stagnation
Suggest - Whenever any card area has more cards in it than its limit, destroy all cards in the card area, card area size +2 (reduces by 1 each time used).

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(in before "wall of text")

glacial umbra
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the only thing is, these look like jokers and not consumables because of the statement when/whenever. you need them to have a one time effect and not if you hold onto them they do something

robust parrot
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It is a one time effect

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I clarified that in the first post.

glacial umbra
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ok, but most of the descriptions make it look like its not

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alr

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oh i see

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nvm mb

robust parrot
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(That's because I thought it would be repetitive to write that the consumable is consumed when it is triggered, 22 times. ;D )

brittle arrow
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Can you rephrase The World? I don't udnerstand what it does

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Also the Sun is kinda lackluster I feel. It depends on lucky cards and on the extremely rare case of a card triggering both effects at the same time?
And I would hold on to the reverse sun for all that time waiting for it to happen?
Not a fan of that

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Also to make the Star work properly, there must be some indication as to what the oldest joker is.
I guess it could be in () in the Star description itself maybe

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Otherwise neat idea in general and most of them sound fun to find and use!

robust parrot
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(but it is possible to suicide with it, I considered also adding +1 hand, but it is still possible to suicide with it by having 0 cards, and it made it even wordier, so I figured, leave it out and rely on the player being careful)

brittle arrow
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ah! Interesting. has very niche uses I feel like, and might need some rewording..?
Maybe "if first hand scores more than blind requirements, set score to blind requirement -1"

robust parrot
robust parrot
brittle arrow
brittle arrow
robust parrot
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Right, but the original wording doesn't

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Just "whenever the scoring requirement is met, no it isn't, you have 1 point left."

brittle arrow
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I just think it's easier to use and to make use of it if it's limited to the first hand. As well as the wording being easier to clearly communicate the effect (for me at least

robust parrot
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Edited Sun with a more powerful effect

green torrent
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these are neat

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bit more interesting than other reverse tarot suggestions

rare wharf
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I actually like these

robust parrot
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I'm currently unsure about the following effects and soliciting ideas that fit the theming:

2. High Priestess - Feels somewhat derivative of the upright version.
10. Wheel of Fortune - Doesn't feel like it fits the theming super well.
14. Temperance - Feels a bit clunky and complicated.

rare wharf
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Maybe edition since that’s what the og one does?

robust parrot
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I like it, but it doesn't feel risky enough, so I'm going to change to 1/2 (editions)

meager glade
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I think these are interesting, though some are definitely far stronger than others, ex reversed fool is most likely useless, sharing the problems of old blue seals while reversed strength is stronger than upright hanged man and wheel of fortune equates to multiple aura cards + 1.5 hanged man. I think given the rarity, it is okay to have some of these be strong but things like the fool and judgement are extremely weak. Reversed fool should be spectral cards only or say 2 random tarot cards, adding random planets to the pool kills it and random tarot cards are worse than the normal fool effect that lets you choose.
Similarly reversed judgment is a weak one time score/econ/scaling booster outclassed by reverse tower as a score booster and outclassed by reverse death as an econ and scaling booster.

robust parrot
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Great points, I'll change Fool to reversed Tarot and spectral cards only.

The wheel of fortune I think is not quite as good as 1.5 hanged man + 5 aura, because you either want the editions OR the card removal, not both. So you either risk your good cards to make them better, or in Oa6s mode you just have good card removal if you can make a hand (targeted immolate without money).

I can buff judgment to not require 0 hands used and be +3 discards. And maybe nerf tower to be +1/+1. I don't know if death is comparable to either of them though.

Thoughts?

meager glade
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I don't think any of them need nerfs, my argument is more that the weak ones need buffs. Since these are rare and niche, I think it is ok for them to be of spectral like power.

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For judgement I would say it should get more of a rework than a numbers buff. Extra discards are fairly boring and reversed death/tower already have similar effects, it doesn't fill a new niche. The theme of blame/doubt/indecision could also be applied to a wide variety of effects, perhaps something like restock/reroll booster packs if one is skipped(you get more choices) or restart the ante if you would lose(this is a little too strong perhaps but is a sort of interesting take on doubting/blaming your actions), it could also be something inline with this for the shop, like if you run a shop without buying anything it instead rerolls the entire shop or perhaps you have the option to revisit the same shop by say skipping a booster pack.

robust parrot
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Restocking booster packs on skip is an idea that I think has legs. It does have the same trigger condition as High Priestess though, and I was trying to avoid that as much as feasible. But I also want to rework High Priestess anyway, so.

robust parrot
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Reworked High Priestess and minor tweaking to Temperance.

outer bluff
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a lot of these are cool!

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Not too sure about the magician

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i like how they're more powerful than usual

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pretty cool

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i think chariot shouldn't be for the whole hand

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i love strength. hermit is pretty cool too. wheel of fortune is cool but i kinda feel like a lot of the reversed cards are similar. I like justice. Hanged man is interesting and i like how the cap is at 15. death is op. and also feels pretty modded. I don't really see the usecase for temperance. Devil is very close to wraith. I like tower. Star is interesting. Moon is cool. I love sun. I like judgement. is world for scaling? If so it's awesome

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well

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you only get one world, and it's rare to get another

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i think world could use a buff or everything else could use a nerf

robust parrot
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How do you feel that they are similar, out of curiosity? Can you give a few specific examples?

robust parrot
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(The use case for temperance is a double or nothing sort of idea.)

outer bluff
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sorry didn't mean for that to sound passive aggressive

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I feel like the idea of editions/enhancements being given/taken at random on cards is used a fair amount. not that i'm against the entire idea, but some more difference between, say, Moon and Hanged man, or similarly, Wheel of Fortune and chariot

meager glade
robust parrot
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@outer bluff hanged man is a value generator at the cost of losing enhancements (deck unfixing). Moon is a deck fixer, it soft deaths stone cards to a specific played card.

Wheel of fortune and chariot are quite similar though. I'll think of something a little bit more interesting for chariot.

robust parrot
lunar pebble
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some of these effects would definitely need a rework/reimagining but the idea is really cool and sound

robust parrot
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Death rework idea: it freezes the shop state upon exiting the shop and restores it at the beginning of next shop. Free reroll enters the new shop. (Seems clunky)

lunar pebble
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like reverse empress is just insane money printing

robust parrot
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How so?

lunar pebble
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buy planet for 3
sell for 1, return negative planet
sell for 4, and I assume it ends there

robust parrot
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Yup

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Net $2 for a tarot and requiring you to clear 2 spaces in consumables doesn't really seem broken.

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And there's no reliable way to repeat a specific reversed tarot.

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(not even with Perkeo shenanigans)

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Death rework idea: it gets the world effect

World rework idea: at the start of the round, doubles blind requirements and doubles all blind rewards.

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Not satisfied yet with world though, it's classic winmore

lunar pebble
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idk why i forgot its one time use 😑

robust parrot
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But I think world's effect is definitely a better fit for death thematically

outer bluff
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though i dunno. It's not the most consistent card to draw

robust parrot
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It's not a consistent value generator. Think of it like immolate

meager glade
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I would like to point out that the effect of the reversed world is only + $4-6(I would rather just have an upright hermit) and the ideal usage of it(using it on a small blind where you would already expect to have some excess score, you are only making it as bad hard as the boss blind after all if you double it), gives no rewards unless you are on white stake. So you are doubling the requirements on a big or boss blind in exchange for around the money it cost to buy the pack that gave you a reversed world.

robust parrot
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It would also double interest money, any money from end of round jokers or tags.

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It's still a bit paltry though

meager glade
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It says doubles blind rewards, not end of round rewards.

brittle arrow
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I had an idea for a one time use thing that fits your idea for these Reversed Tarot Cards @robust parrot
Maybe you can find use for it (maybe replace the effect of Earth since that one in particular is very wordy)
My idea:
When a joker is destroyed, earn double its sell value
(or just the sell valua or whatever, make money off of jokers that destroy themselves or other jokers is the point)

outer bluff
outer bluff
brittle arrow
outer bluff
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Ah

robust parrot
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Ok, I had a bit of a think on a flight and I reworked a few things. In particular, Death, World, Chariot, Moon, and Temperance. Others have received slight wording changes.

outer bluff
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cool!

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I'll check them out soon

robust parrot
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I think I'm about happy with where all of the cards are, so I'm going to start modding tomorrow probably

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Still open to suggestions tho

robust parrot
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It's been a while, figured I should give an update. I've been plucking away at this mod. Currently, I have up to Chariot implemented. 8/22. It took me a while to get the pool handling and spawning and everything that isn't actually using the cards worked out, after that I've been just shotgunning implementations. So hopefully, I can have it done in about a week or two, but we'll see if any of the ideas I came up with are actually very difficult. Chariot was a bit tricky, but I managed to get it figured out in the end.

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(Note, justice is only partially implemented, I still have some things to work out with moving cards between areas, while 9-21 have no implementation at all, they just take up space.)

hollow flower
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Ill test it in a day when im home from paris

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Cant wait!!!!

green torrent
hollow flower
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I've been taking french since I was a kid so I got to take this 12 day trip

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It was a lot of fun

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I bought a copy of quest64 and 2 game and watches

green torrent
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wtf

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fun and paris in the same context

hollow flower
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They were mostly mean but the exchange family in arras is stayed with were the loveliest people

robust parrot
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Implemented 16/22

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going to stop for the day

winged epoch
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r. emp into 3 r. sun to get lucky card to 2 in 5 chance of $20

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also r. moon seems kinda underpowred (just a weaker death), espexially compared to other r. tarot cards

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but overall pretty cool

robust parrot
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but I agree, Moon is one of the weaker cards, if you have an idea of how to make it better, I'm all ears.

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I just want it to fit the theming:

Upright - intuition, illusion, anxiety, misconceptions, insecurity

Reversed - self-deception, exposing secrets, truth, composure

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The stone card idea was about "exposing secrets" but it's a little flimsy

robust parrot
winged epoch
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idk just example idea but maybe upon destroying a stone card show next boss blind or what's inside packs/next reroll?

winged epoch
robust parrot
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(also it would require showman or r. fool to roll both of those specific cards.)

outer bluff
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time to try it out baby

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wait how do you install mods again

robust parrot
outer bluff
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school restriction 💔 i'll have to do it at home

robust parrot
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20/22, only have Moon and World left. I'm holding off on Moon in case I get a better idea, or someone suggests a better idea.

outer bluff
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I'm ok with moon being about stone cards but it should be stronger to reflect that

hollow flower
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@robust parrot

image.png
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tried to sell a hyrophent when i had reversed emprice and it crashed

robust parrot
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Thanks for the report

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oh that's just me being an idiot

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@hollow flower fixed

hollow flower
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ooo do tell

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thanks

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and what was the problem

robust parrot
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it was an edit I didn't fully test, essentially, I had it creating new cards from scratch originally, and I tested that version, but then I thought, "wait, gift card and other effects might change the card, it says "copy" so I should properly copy the card" so I changed it to copy_card instead of creating new ones, I went "yeah, that works" and then I just didn't test it. I sent in a bad argument to copy_card because I'm a dope.

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it also gave me a chance to circle back and fix something that I had intended, which was if you had multiple Empress they would all trigger when a single card was sold. I made it so only one trigger happens.

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which is more in line with how I have newer cards implemented.

hollow flower
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who needs to give valid data to a function anyway

robust parrot
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I know right?

hollow flower
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and sweet sublime

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well im having fun part of me wants to test them all with debug tool

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but anouther part of me wants to do it naturally

robust parrot
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well, I should have the artificial testing covered on my end, assuming I'm not a moron, which I am. But don't feel like you have to test it with the debug tool

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they should come rare enough that you'll get the opportunity to see probably 2-4 each run?

hollow flower
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yeah last run it was just the one

robust parrot
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I have them at 3% or 10x as common as legendaries.

hollow flower
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3% is pretty good

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yeah exactly

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i also got chicot!

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it was a simple run but fun

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well hopefully the next reverse tarot i find works

robust parrot
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crossing my fingers as well

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I'm editing a few of the other early tarots to fix the doubled use bugs, but that shouldn't be a problem unless you're using showman or perkeo

hollow flower
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sweet and i mean ill be updating soon anyway for the last 2 anyway

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its now not letting me take the reverse world

image.png
robust parrot
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world isn't implemented yet.

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moon and world are the ones not yet done

hollow flower
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oh i only read moon

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i dont know what i thought other one was

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bad luck i guess

robust parrot
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🙁 sry

hollow flower
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nah all good i should have read the whole message

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now this is my turn to be dumb

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okay now this time it wont let me take it
now this has to be a bug

image.png
robust parrot
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that is a bug

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can you do me a favor, with debug

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can you type in eval G.pack.cards[4].ability.auto_use?

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you should get true

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if you do get true, can you check your lovely log to ensure that my patches went through?

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@hollow flower ^

hollow flower
robust parrot
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oh, I must be misremembering that location

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one moment

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eval G.pack_cards.cards[4].ability.auto_use

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@hollow flower ^

hollow flower
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sweet got true

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INFO - [G] > eval G.pack_cards.cards[4].ability.auto_use
INFO - [G] < true

robust parrot
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ok, the lovely patch isn't going through for the take

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can you show me your lovely log?

hollow flower
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INFO - [G] > eval G.pack.cards[4].ability.auto_use INFO - [G] < Error: [string "DebugPlus Eval"]:1: attempt to index field 'pack' (a nil value) INFO - [G] > Eval G.pack.cards[4].ability.auto_use INFO - [G] < Error: [string "DebugPlus Eval"]:1: attempt to index field 'pack' (a nil value) INFO - [G] > INFO - [G] < Error: [string "DebugPlus Eval"]:1: attempt to index field 'pack' (a nil value) INFO - [G] [DebugPlus] Enabled performance profiler. Press 'v' again to disable it. INFO - [G] > eval G.pack.cards[4].ability.auto_use INFO - [G] < Error: [string "DebugPlus Eval"]:1: attempt to index field 'pack' (a nil value) INFO - [G] > eval G.pack_cards.cards[4].ability.auto_use INFO - [G] < true

image.png
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wow that is formated horrably

robust parrot
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I meant the entire log file. It should be in Mods/lovely/log/<most-recent-file>.log

hollow flower
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ahhhh

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yes

robust parrot
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it seems to indicate that it should have patched the file in question. Can you check Mods/lovely/dump/functions/UI_definitions.lua for the line if not card.ability.consumeable.auto_use then

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There should be 3 total occurences of the string "auto_use" in that file

hollow flower
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not once is it here for me

robust parrot
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what other mods do you currently have installed? Does it work as the only mod? (The mods I currently have installed are Blueprint, Brainstorm, Cartomancer, DebugPlus, JokerDisplay, and SystemClock.)

hollow flower
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installed or running

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i also have your other mod active (and debug plus ) but like i have tailisman and pokermon and crypitid still in mods despite the fact i never play them

robust parrot
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sorry, I had to step away. I'll investigate. thanks

hollow flower
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All good and best of luck

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Im at a piano practice anyway so physically can't help

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But yeah can't wait to play around with it more

robust parrot
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I'm surprised that my other mod isn't causing crashes, at the moment. I think some things changed with the newer version of smod, and it's causing crashes here at the moment, I'll need to make some changes. (Actually, I'll probably just have to remove ninja until I can come up with a not horrible hack way of implementing it.)

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Can you disable DiscordVanilla and let me know if that fixes your Take buttons?

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(Easiest way to find a rev tarot card in an arcana pack is fast skip to ante 3, then give yourself a bunch of charm tags)

robust parrot
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Implemented World

hollow flower
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Just woke up and ready to test

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downloaded your latest version and take is back

outer bluff
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Can't wait to try it!

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It'll have to be tomorrow for me but Im still really excited to try

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They look awesome in game from those ss

robust parrot
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Moon idea: affects all stone cards in the full deck, takes the suit and rank of the (first) destroyed card.

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I'm still not completely happy with it

outer bluff
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Wait, the first destroyed stone card?

robust parrot
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No, moon triggers on any destroyed card

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Some effects destroy multiple cards

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So this would trigger on the leftmost shattered glass card, for instance.

wet patrol
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The trigger condition for reversed Moon seems weird to me

wispy plover
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Moon;
When hand is played, convert unplayed cards into stone cards

?

vast basin
robust parrot
# wet patrol The trigger condition for reversed Moon seems weird to me

The description just above is intended to be an edit to another significantly above.

In full, I'll probably do:

Moon - When playing cards are destroyed, convert all stone cards in the full deck to the suit, rank, and non-stone enhancement of the leftmost destroyed card.

Example, there are four stone cards in the deck. Two plain, one with a purple seal, one with foil and a red seal. Immolate is triggered, destroying (from left to right) a blue seal poly Gold Jack of Clubs, and then 4 other cards including one plain stone card.

The three remaining stone cards are converted to a Gold Jack of Clubs, a Gold Jack of Clubs with a purple seal, and a Gold Jack of Clubs with Foil and a red seal, an animation playing (flip, flip back) for any of these that happen to be in hand.

robust parrot
# vast basin is chariot not just busted as fuck?

Well, it is quite strong. Instead of one voucher for the price of one you get two vouchers for the price of two. But it's a random voucher, and you are forced to immediately purchase it, even if would rather not take it, and/or it would send you into negative money.

vast basin
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oooh i get it

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i interpreded the second was free

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my bad

outer bluff
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Yeah even if it was free it's not busted at all

wet patrol
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I think a clearer phrasing for Chariot is "When a voucher is purchased, lose $10 and obtain another random Voucher", though that removes discount synergy

robust parrot
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That's 22/22

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Now all that's left is bug smooshing and balancing

robust parrot
lunar pebble
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i wish i could playtest this for you

winged epoch