#Rework/Rebalancing; LOTS OF IDEAS from Lilo :3

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proven parrot
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I will try and lay out most of the changes I would make as best I can. if there's anything else you wanna know then please ask me (i.e reasoning)
this is made under the pretense of Blue Stake Rework, we don't know what it will be just that it won't be -1 discard, so i'm treating it like blue stake just doesnt exist for the rebalancing.

Jokers

  • Hiker -> +2 chips to the poker hand played for every card scored
  • Seance -> Gives a spectral card after defeating the boss
  • Showman -> increases the chance of finding cards you already have (as well as making it so they CAN appear, theyre also weighted more (2x?))
  • Idol -> Rank specific
  • Matador, idk. this one is just here because we know it WILL be reworked
  • Sin jokers, buffed from +3 to +4
  • Wily/Zany, costs $3 instead of $4 (very minor)
  • Loyalty Card, x3 every 4 hands
  • 8 ball, either 1/3 or making it that every 4 8's scored gives a tarot rather than 1/4
  • Steel Joker, 0.2x -> 0.25x
  • Space Joker, 1/4 -> 1/3
  • Vampire, +0.1x -> +0.15x
  • Fortune Teller, i dont actually know. its just... kinda shit imo
  • Bloodstone, 1.5x -> 1.75x
  • Onyx Agate, +7 -> +8, same vein as the sin jokers, was unnecessarily nerfed
  • Flower Pot,, 4 unique suits -> 3 unique suits
  • HTR, unsure :3
  • Rough Gem, $1 -> 1/2 for $3
  • Satellite, starts at $2 a round
  • Bootstraps, +2 mult for every $5 -> +3 mult for every $5
  • Hologram, +0.25x -> 0.2x
  • Lucky Cat, 0.25x -> 0.2x
  • Rebate, $5 -> $3
  • Hanging Chad, now retriggers the first two cards once instead of the first card twice
  • Misprint, you can no longer see the next card to be drawn from the collection, "misprint tech" now only works if you actually have the joker

Decks

  • Nebula, remove the -1 consumable slot, so it's effect is just "start with Telescope"
  • Black Deck, starts at ante 0
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proven parrot
# proven parrot I will try and lay out most of the changes I would make as best I can. if there'...

Bosses

  • Amber Acorn, you can no longer hold a joker against it, the bug where duplicated cards via ankh/invis have the red deck as their backing is fixed, no useful information can be seen in the collection (no misprint tech, no AJ suit, etc)
  • Serpent, after playing a hand or discarding, you can only draw up to 3 cards (not always drawing 3 cards)

Planets

  • Jupiter, currently +2 +15, buffed to +2 +25
  • Earth, currently +2 +25, buffed to +2 +30
  • Planet X, currently +3 +35, buffed to +3 +40
  • Mercury, currently +1 +15, nerfed to +1 +10
  • Pluto, currently +1 +10, nerfed to +1 +5

Spectrals

  • Ouija, no longer has the handsize penalty
  • Immolate, nerfed to be +$10 and destroys 3 random cards in hand
thick otter
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I think most of these changes are good, but I'll comment on the ones I have something to say for.
Seance: I do think a complete rework is justified, but I think this change removes a lot of flavor and player control. I think it'd be better if seance could still be built around, just hard to activate. Maybe something like 'gives a spectral card every x tarots used' idk
Loyalty Card / Flowerpot: I feel like just changing numbers doesn't really address the problems of these jokers. For fp, I'd say to hold off on changing it until we see how wild cards are buffed, and for loyalty, honestly id prefer a complete rework.
Space / Vamp: these jokers don't need buffs. I'm on the edge for steel, but I think a buff would be fine for that one

wispy agate
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why would cat need to be nerfed

proven parrot
# wispy agate why would cat need to be nerfed

magician was buffed to 2, cat being buffed to 0.25x seemed a bit overtuned when 1.0.1f came out and i still believe that to be the case
scales faster than steel and requires much less setup, its just that its not completely in your control how fast it scales

wispy agate
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i don't know if steel joker is a good benchmark for scaling xmult

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increasing bloodstone's xmult doesn't help it much

proven parrot
wispy agate
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ic

vapid badger
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My thoughts:

Hiker is actually a pretty good joker, especially on decks like erratic and abandoned where you're likely to play the same cards over and over. However it is not strong enough to warrant a nerf imo as actually drawing those cards is a pretty big challenge, the +5 chips are a pretty good reward for that

Space joker is also pretty decent, pair builds with this guy are so fun. I believe the 1 in 4 is perfect as 1 in 3 is probably way too strong (getting a lot of hand levels fast in balatro is actually pretty easy, let's not make it easier)

Onyx agate is admittedly not the best joker, but I don't think increasing the number fixes that. Take fibonacci, it gives +8 mult and is rank specific instead of suit specific (allowing you to build toward stronger poker hands than flushes like full houses and 5 of a kinds, it's also not completely countered by a boss blind), and yet fibonacci still kinda also sucks. I believe while onyx agate is not the best, it's best the way it is as there really isn't much of a way to buff it any more.

You're underestimating satellite, it's pretty decent actually and does not need a buff, or at the very least not that much of a buff.

I do not believe we should be nerfing jokers, it's not like balatro is a multiplayer game that absolutely requires balance. These jokers are some of the most fun to build around jokers in the entire game and I believe nerfing them takes away from that. Sometimes having cracked jokers really isn't that big of a deal

I do not think acorn and serpent need a buff. Just like jokers, having easy to clear blinds really isn't that bad. Imagine losing an extremely difficult but fun run because amber acorn put your dagger in front of hit the road that one hand. That sucks

Nerfing mercury would not make playing pairs harder, it would just make it more annoying. The good thing about pairs is their spammabilty while being able to hold blue seals, nerfing mercury's chips doesn't fix that.

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I have gotten completionist++ in this game. I can count the amount of times I went high carding in my entire journey to c++ on my hands, because shoot the moon needs many queens in hand. Pluto already sucks, it does not deserve a nerf.

Take what I said about nerfing jokers and buffing blinds and apply it to immolate. That's my opinion.

storm frigate
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A lot of these seem pretty bad changes

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The planet nerfs and buffs are really bad (especially flush)

vapid badger
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Ehhhh

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Jupiter gives the same amount of chips as mercury

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Earth gives 5 more chips than venus

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Planet X's increases over mars does not make 5 of a kind worth it

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Those do kind os need a buff

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Especially earth

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Earth sucks right now

storm frigate
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Earth does need ot

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I will gove you that

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But Jupiter is perfect where it is at right now

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As flushes are more for triggering effects than level scaling and I like that

vapid badger
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True

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However

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If you are just straight up not the best hand to go for in the deck literally designed for you (checkered) then you kinda need a buff

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Unironically speaking you should play pairs or two pairs or even straights over flushes in checkered which sucks

storm frigate
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It id

vapid badger
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If you say so man

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But i find playing flushes on checkered very risky

storm frigate
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I mean you can consistently get them on it every hand

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And thats extremely good

wispy agate
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there's still incentive for playing pairs instead regardless of that

vapid badger
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They don't leave much room for blue seals

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Which pairs do

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So

wispy agate
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having less space for gold cards and blue seals is already a disadvantage

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there are also some jokers that would rather you play sonething else

storm frigate
vapid badger
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No joke I was playing checkered the other day going for flushes and I unironcally needed 3-4 flushes with multiple glass cards to clear the blinds

wispy agate
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not the kind of power you'd expect from a larger hand

vapid badger
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Only reason I won was when I played a hand with 4 glass cards against the vessel with a steel in hand and I just barely cleared the blind

storm frigate
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Its the easiest 5 card hand to get

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I think having it fill the niche of joker trigger is great

wispy agate
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i'd only use them for suit-based triggers

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if i'm using fib or whatever i'd rather use 3 or 4oak

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because then i also get a good chip generator

keen umbra
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At 1.75 it's basically 3x mult for any flush (assuming you hit 2/5 cards)

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IMO this does nothing to fix bloodstone- it's still annoyingly RNG dependant. More balanced? Yes. Still bad? Also yes

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Otherwise, I think the Idol buff is too much. X2 for a specific rank is really strong, especially since you can deckfix to remove its sole downside.

Vampire does NOT need that buff IMO. Got nothing against it i just think it's fine as us.

Fortune Teller doesn't need a change, it's a solid joker early to late, if you've invested in Tarots. I think you just personally dislike it.

Dislike Rough Gem for the same reason I disliked bloodstone- too RNG heavy, though it's more forgivable for Econ Jokers

Misprint is meh, and idrc about it, it's an easter egg and tedious to extract actual value from.

Black Deck should NOT start at ante 0.

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I won't go on a whole rant on why Black Deck starting at Ante 0 is a bad idea, but it can be summarized as "far and away the best Deck for any situation pre-blue stake (and post with the 2025 balance updates)

storm frigate
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What if blood stone was .1 per trigger so .1 for the first and then .2 ect ect a 5 card hand would be 3.5x mult

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Thats probably rare worthy though

keen umbra
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Like a guaranteed proc?

vapid badger
storm frigate
keen umbra
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Which is a rough early game

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I agree it's needs a buff, but this is a bad buff that removes the speciality/entire challenge of the deck

vapid badger
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Starting in ante 0 might be too strong but I'd at least make it start with jimbo

keen umbra
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Ehhhhhh

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Maybe

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Either way, I dont hate most of these, I commented on the ones I have issues wjth

storm frigate
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All the ones till locality card i have problems with

keen umbra
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Tbh

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I can get behind the Hiker change

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But it'd work better as a new rare joker IMO

wispy agate
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that's good enough to offset the downside of not being able to use lucky and glass cards

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and black deck probably won't receive any changes since it's meant to have a bad start

weary grotto
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i dunno

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pretty wild

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ouija no longer has the handsize penalty?!

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WHAT?!

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Why

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It's so powerful

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Instant deck fixing that can be capitalized on if you have a functioning build

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particularly if it lands on a face card

neon maple
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ouija in jokerless goes hard

tiny geyser
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A lot of these changes feel really arbitrary. Some are good, I particularly like Black Deck starting at ante 0, but otherwise, you're calling a lot of Jokers bad that aren't actually bad. For example: Fortune Teller is really good if you can get it going.
Also, Flushes definitely don't need a buff. If anything I feel like Straights should be buffed and Flushes nerfed.

onyx jacinth
restive narwhal
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px is fine as is, it’s only marginally worse than eris

teller is fine too, it easily gets to +80-100 if you put a lil effort towards purples or money

slight buff to jupiter is acceptable, but +2/+20 is good enough

earth buff yeah

ouija absolutely needs a downside, cause compared to sigil’s suit fixing its rank fixing is way more powerful

keep immolate the way it is rn because I love it

mercury and pluto aren’t the issue it’s that pairs and high cards require a saucepan of wet noodles for a brain to play

serpent and acorn don’t particularly need buffs, easy boss blinds are fine to have

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hiker is cool the way he currently is, this is like a different joker entirely with none of the same synergies

seance is fun to build around, this new seance isn’t

remove showman

idol rework is way overdone and insanely strong for how little it takes to remove a rank from the deck entirely

sin jokers are probably alright because they’re not meant to be particularly good, making a full suit effectively carry another enhancement is kinda strong, and they can still be built around

don’t reduce the 3oak jokers’ price just make the effects a bit better

rework lc entirely don’t just change numbers around and expect that to fix the joker that’s fundamentally unusable

8ball gambling is fine it doesn’t need consistency at the cost of synergy

a steel joker buff is fine

see 8ball for spaceman

vamp is pretty good already

bloodstone could honestly do with just an odds change to 2/3 maybe?

agate is ok, it’s one of the few jokers that might actually warrant a partial rework just because it’s the only absolute upgrade to another joker

flowerpot is a lost cause

hit the road could be buffed but there’s then a problem with how powerful it is once fixed for

gem can do without an aspect of rng

satellite is fine generally

bootstraps can be balanced with respect to bonus and mult cards or alternatively smiley and scary faces

cat can maybe take a nerf, idk

drifting dune
keen umbra
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50 chips is alot, and it's a resource that isnt as plentiful as +mult

wispy agate
vapid badger
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Straights... BUFFED???

proven parrot
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also I really don't think you understand gold stake a8 meta if you're saying you want straights buffed and flushes nerfed. pairs and straights are meta; pairs because of their consistency relative to scoring, and straights because they scale incredibly quick but are able to be drawn somewhat consistently with discarding. you only need to play one a round typically if you have okay planet levels

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flushes scale horrible, Jupiter is the 4th worst scaling planet in the game and it's the worst scaling for a 5 card hand

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+2 +15 is abysmal, saturn scales THREE TIMES faster (1.5x mult, 2x chips)

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it only scales 1 mult faster than mercury which is just ridiculous considering it's a 5 card hand Vs a 2 card hand

proven parrot
# weary grotto It's so powerful

because it's currently the worst spectral, imo.
-1 handsize is horrific, it hurts its own effect because you can't draw the cards you can't draw the ranks you have more of because of lower handsize

onyx jacinth
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i do agree on fortune teller needing a buff, 1:1 is pretty bad in comparison to something like red card giving you 3 mult for about the same amount of money

proven parrot
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ouija having no direct downside makes it actually viable semi-frequently, rather than being viable every 400 runs or so

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the indirect downsides are still there; converting out of ranks you need for your current build, and locking out future synergies by converting to a specific rank

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it's the same thing with sigil, but sigil has blackboard and black suit jokers to consider which is why you probably shouldn't take it if you have a bunch of black suits in hand

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and immolate, not that anyone complained about the nerf I suggested, is because it's an insane card. -5 cards is almost always a benefit and +$20 is insane immediate econ, better than hermit given you don't already need money for it.

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+$10 and -3 means it's still strong, just not insane (would still be the best spectral imo, just brings it's power level down so that it's not absolutely broken)

weary grotto
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(in jokerless)

wispy agate
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you don't have to worry about certain joker synergies getting hurt there so

onyx jacinth
wispy agate
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i'm fine with fortune teller being weaker than usual because it can have a place as supplementary +mult in some builds

proven parrot
# restive narwhal hiker is cool the way he currently is, this is like a different joker entirely w...

hiker is way too inconsistent; it doesn't do anything for the current hand without retriggers, and it's card specific so you need to draw the exact same cards you've scored before to keep scaling. it has the same synergies actually. it works with retriggers just the same, but now it's not dependent on you drawing the exact same cards again.

seance is one of the most inconsistent jokers in the game. this makes it far more consistent, you just can't build around it to make it more consistent. that's a fine compromise for me.

idol rework really isn't overdone. removing a rank doesn't guarantee idol will hit a useful rank; the only way to do that is to deckfix the entire deck to one rank. it's still inconsistent, it's just rebate levels of inconsistent. I don't give a damn about endless balancing either.

"Fundamentally unusable" how does loyalty being 4 hand not make it useable? it's now able to proc every round at base for every deck except black.
vamp is really not that good. it can work, but it's outclassed in almost every case by other scaling jokers. You have to directly sacrifice something to scale it, so it should be higher for that reason. 0.2x vamp was too strong for sure, but 0.1x is very rarely worth it in my experience.

I would be okay with bloodstone becoming 2/3 for 1.5x

flowerpot isn't a lost cause at all, any 3 unique suits would fix the inconsistency issues with FP for the most part imo. it means with straights/fullhouse where FP works best you can have 2 cards be repeat suits.

What's the problem with the gem change? it increases the EV of rough gem, and RNG econ isn't really a problem like scoring is because you don't die if you don't get econ immediately, barring bull/boots

satellite has too big of a setup cost to payout relative to other econ jokers. it costs 3x as much as golden joker to get it up to the same $ ($6 buy price, then 4 planets is $12)
starting at $2 means that downside is worth it given it takes $12 total

proven parrot
onyx jacinth
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what's wrong with making it at least a +2

proven parrot
onyx jacinth
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i mean sure

proven parrot
wispy agate
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the rough gem change is just unnecessary imo

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also doesn't the loyalty card change just

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turn it into a slightly more finnicky acrobat

proven parrot
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there's still major differences, like acrobat being the last hand, so you can't desync, while you can desync loyalty card (could be active on the first hand of a round, for example), also against needle

wispy agate
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what's the reasoning behind reverting the sin jokers

proven parrot
# wispy agate what's the reasoning behind reverting the sin jokers

steven gets +4 for 5/13 ranks, each suit takes up proportionally less of the deck (1/4) at base than evens do, and if you're just gunning for suits Vs ranks, you can make smaller hands much easier when going for ranks. making them have the same mult per score means that the differences are in hand type and fixability, which feels better to me than the sin jokers being just worse mult per score on top of that

vapid badger
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I don't think anyone is complaining about it being so strong

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I don't see why it needs to be nerfed at all

proven parrot
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and things shouldn't be an always take really

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if there's an immolate and any other spectral, it's optimal to take immolate ~99% of the time

proven parrot
# vapid badger My thoughts: Hiker is actually a pretty good joker, especially on decks like er...

hiker isnt good on erratic because it doesn't matter if you have multiple of the same rank and suit, you still need to draw each of them separately to scale hiker on them. it's card specific not suit+rank specific. abandoned sure, but even then it's still not great because it doesn't do anything for the current hand. I'm also not nerfing it. this is intended as a buff; it fixes the inconsistency of hiker almost completely, so the +chips being lower is fine otherwise youd be getting +10 on a pair every time, which is 2.5x faster than square... we do not need more lobotomy jokers.

1/3 space wouldn't be too strong imo, the inconsistency means it's not entirely in your control as to what it levels without savescumming. it just reduces the variance and means it's more likely to level your main hand if you don't play it as often as lobotomy.

agate is just because it was nerfed to +7 because of the sin jokers, which was unnecessary. +8 is just because the nerf to +7 wasnt fun.

starting at $2 is not "that much of a buff". it just means that it doesn't cost 3x golden jokers price to get to golden jokers power, it's now 2x ($6 + 2x$3 from planets), and can scale higher than it as compensation.

why shouldn't jokers be nerfed? if you only buff things you get power creep, which thunk has talked about before. $5 rebate is insane, and this is also WITH blue stake rework. 3 discards with $5 rebate would be just fucking insane. $3 rebate is what it was at before and it was okay, it'd be better than it used to be because of the lack of blue stake as well. having things be so dominant in the meta that you should basically always take it even if it's eternal rental is just stupid. something shouldn't be an always take.

acorn does basically nothing for the final boss, and serpent is a buff for most builds. bosses should hinder most builds at least somewhat, or hard counter specific builds, not help them or do nothing.

immolate is another "always take"

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if you have immolate Vs any other spectral, it's a take ~99% of the time

vapid badger
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Idk I'm kinda just not vibing with most of these changes

proven parrot
vapid badger
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While gold staking erratic, hiker was the GOAT, bro allowed me to easily play hands with 1000+ chips on them I have no clue what you mean hiker isn't good on erratic

An ante 1 spaceman is unironically speaking rn comparable to a green joker or supernova, as in something to get your pair build online, spaceman hasn't betrayed me yet even in 1 in 4, I fear buffing him might make him too powerful

I didn't know agate was +8 before. I wouldn't mind rebuffing him though I highly doubt it'll make it any better

Idk I think I'm having a significantly better time with satellite than everyone else because I genuinely don't know why everyone has a problem with that joker

I do not want my favorite jokers nerfed. Case in point

proven parrot
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regarding satellite, I have seen MANY people complain about satellite. the setup cost is just too much for the early game really, and later on you probably already have Econ sorted. it's the opposite problem as rocket, except rocket doesn't have a setup cost besides the initial buy price...

proven parrot
vapid badger
vapid badger
vapid badger
proven parrot
proven parrot
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I'm not saying I want them to be weak, I just want them to be weaker

pulsar niche
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Im against buffing black deck as I feel like it’s supposed to be that “one difficult deck” that is meant to be a challenge

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The only rework joker I can agree with is matador

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Also hiker is like one of the best jokers in my opinion as it is the only joker capable of giving your cards more than a finite value. With retriggers this is especially useful.

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I had a playing card reach over 400 chips one time

light dagger
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hiker is fine

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if it’s bad because you need really specific cards then by that criteria idol would need a buff

wispy agate
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do you have any idea why idol is the second worst card in the game

weary grotto
wispy agate
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it is

weary grotto
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ah cool

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i think -1 hand size is fair

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maybe -1 hand? not sure if i'd have more trouble or less tho lol

light dagger
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the rank one is ouija

weary grotto
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i like these ideas tho

light dagger
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incantation is 4 numbered cards

weary grotto
weary grotto
light dagger
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bloating your deck is t really deck fixing

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incantation doesn’t change hand size at all

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you’re talking about ouija

weary grotto
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yup

light dagger
weary grotto
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ah my bad i wrote that badly

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i meant that as a rebuttal and i was going to work on that but i forgor

wispy agate
keen umbra
proven parrot
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so I'm logically consistent

proven parrot
keen umbra
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Id be fine with an alternative buff

keen umbra
light dagger
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making it rank specific honestly doesn’t feel very different

proven parrot
proven parrot
light dagger
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you’re not gonna be deckfixing for 5oak, you’re decorating for f5

proven parrot
weary grotto
# proven parrot I will try and lay out most of the changes I would make as best I can. if there'...

my bad, i forgor the rest of these. I'll reply now.

  1. 2 chips is pretty reasonable, but i think this is a bit of a different joker. i think regular hiker is ok. It has its uses
  2. boring 😴 seance is ass but at least its interesting.
  3. I kinda like this. That is technically 2 things that a joker is doing, but ig its ok,
  4. it's ok. I dunno, i'd have to see how it's played.
  5. ok bro good effort
  6. that is pretty large, but ig that means you can carry them for a few more hands.
  7. uuhhh ok
  8. yeah, not bad. i'd have to see in playtesting but honestly seems a little more boring. i do see the acrobat parallels.
  9. first one. the chance part is fun. every 4 8s is a little more boring.
  10. ok. playtesting will see how it ends up.
  11. ok. pretty decent
  12. shit?! it's retroactive! if you can get tarots easy, then you go wild with mult!
  13. kind of a minor change. but ig its ok.
  14. fair.
  15. yeah, this is easier to pop. maybe 2.5x?
  16. buff my goat
  17. make it 2.
  18. how does that work? i get it's not great but that buff doesn't make much sense.
  19. sure.
  20. yeah, fair.
  21. Ehhh... i think it's ok in the current state. lucky cards aren't getting much help in this rework idea
  22. nah 4 bucks is fair.
  23. A little more boring tbh. I think uncommon is an ok nerf
  24. Fiiiine. It's so cool tho :3
  25. Yeah, pretty reasonable.
  26. idk... i think it's alright. It's difficult
    ok il do the rest later starting from bosses
keen umbra
proven parrot
weary grotto
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it's a bit much

keen umbra
weary grotto
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a full ante is a lot of money

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considering you can one pump most blinds

light dagger
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goddamnit autocorrect

keen umbra
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Im wrong

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You'd get to 22$ by ante 1 small blind

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Which is still alot to start with

weary grotto
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which is still wild

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more than yellow deck

keen umbra
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Yeah I was 3$ off in my estimation

weary grotto
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hard to die

proven parrot
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it doesn't trivialise it at all, I know because I've tried it out

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it just makes it not miserable

weary grotto
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there's a mod?

proven parrot
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it bridges the difficulty jump between the next hardest decks

weary grotto
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idk...

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i have to go but ill be back

keen umbra
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I have it on PC, I'll have to try it sometime soon

proven parrot
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to start with anaglyph

keen umbra
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On paper it sounds absolutely busted

proven parrot
proven parrot
# weary grotto my bad, i forgor the rest of these. I'll reply now. 1. 2 chips is pretty reaso...

1- "it has it's uses" and those are so incredibly niche that it basically does nothing 99.9% of the time. also you didn't address the issues I raised about current hiker at all.
2- "boring" WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT IT BEING "INTERESTING" IF ITS ASS. bad jokers are boring because you basically never use them. a dead slot is VERY boring to me. I just don't understand why people keep saying this.
3- "Technically 2 things" the spirit of the guideline is to not have jokers be overly complicated in their mechanics, and to try and have jokers have one mechanic if possible.
8- it already has acrobat parallels, this just makes it more consistent. loyalty card can desync, acrobat can't (loyalty can't be forced on a particular # hand consistently), and also against needle.
9- "little more boring" how is current 8ball not boring? because it's inconsistent? how is that more interesting
18- increases the EV of rough gem to $1.5 while also giving room for Oops, cementing red suits as RNG but also a decent buff to gem as it's Econ is pitiful
21- the lucky cat buff was just unnecessary with magician being buffed to 2 imo, which is the reason for this change, also what do u mean by "lucky cards aren't getting much help"? I wasn't trying to.
23- Changing the rarity doesn't fix the core issue AT ALL. it just makes chad appear less, it doesn't make how often you take it when it appears any less. rarity changes are just stupid for balancing imo, except for legendaries really.
26- it's not just difficult, it's so much more difficult than the next most difficult deck. black deck is the hardest deck across all stakes and it's not even close.

light dagger
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i feel like seance is good

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spectrals are supposed to be a pain in the ass to get

proven parrot
# light dagger i feel like seance is good

seance is not good at all though. it's incredibly inconsistent and takes so long to actually pay out, IF it even does, that you end up losing out on a lot due to the opportunity cost of taking up a joker slot & digging for straight flushes.
even if it pays out it's not likely to have been worth it because its one random spectral.

proven parrot
light dagger
proven parrot
keen smelt
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I do think Seance deserves a rework, but I think it should still be something you have to play to

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Besides, Straight Flush builds probably don't even want half the Spectrals

light dagger
wispy agate
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thus making it so you also get deckfixing alongside the spectral

wispy agate
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if you're playing straight flushes consistently enough to benefit from seance, you'd be winning regardless of it being there

thick otter
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I just wanna say that the reason people are complaining about your seance change being boring is because there are like 10 other ways to change it that would make it a better joker while still making it fun and interesting to use

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Like in terms of strength it's fine but there are FAR better ways to buff it

proven parrot
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if you're going to see there are x better ways to change something you should at least give examples

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"fun and interesting" nobody has said WHY the change is boring

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and how current seance is "fun and interesting"

storm frigate
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The change makes you not have to think about what your playing

keen smelt
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Seance should be something you have to play to

storm frigate
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While your is oh time to wait

keen smelt
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Perhaps "Create a Spectral card when a [random rank and suit, not chosen from deck] is scored"? Maybe not the best but I think it could be interesting

storm frigate
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Straight flushes are fun to build around and this removes a reason to even try

storm frigate
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Six sense would just be better than that like most the time

keen smelt
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True

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I don't think Seance needs to be about Straight Flushes

pulsar nebula
keen smelt
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The point is that it's a difficult objective you need to play to

storm frigate
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Yes making it a cardomancer clone (essentially) is lame

keen smelt
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If done optimally, you should be able to get more payout from it than Sixth Sense -- i.e. at least 2 per round or 4 per ante

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(since it's harder)

onyx jacinth
storm frigate
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I mean we need more stuff to make skipping better

keen smelt
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I think that just needs better Tags

onyx jacinth
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this wouldn't do it

thick otter
# proven parrot if you're going to see there are x better ways to change something you should at...

I mean I did in my original response but sure I can give some more
"Create a spectral every x tarots used"
"Selling jokers has an x chance to create a spectral card"
"Create a spectral card if each hand played during the round was a unique hand and you end the round with 0 hands remaining"
Hell, we could change your suggestion to smthn like "When boss blind defeated, create a spectral card for each empty joker slot" to immediately make it more interesting
Not saying all of these are good, but they all work to make seance stronger without sacrificing being interesting.

analog marsh
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My solution that doesn't mess with the Straight Flush spirit:

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But yeah Séance is a Joker that ironically creates cards that harms itself

storm frigate
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The best spectral for it

analog marsh
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But it also creates Ouija, Cryptid, Immolate, Incantation, Grim, Familiar 😢

storm frigate
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Can't agree with that

pulsar nebula
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What if the hand was changed like playing 3 full houses or something

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I don’t like it but just a thought

keen smelt
# analog marsh

there literally is no straight flush spirit. it's only there because it's hard

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still thats interesting

storm frigate
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oooo I am the ghost of straight flush spirit

vapid badger
vapid badger
wispy agate
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if something needs an specific set of jokers to be good

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is it really

restive narwhal
# proven parrot hiker is way too inconsistent; it doesn't do anything for the current hand witho...

see, hiker is now one of those jokers where just changing the numbers can fix him

seance isn’t supposed to be consistent, you’re meant to have to work for the spectrals and it rewards you if you set it up with way better output

idol is a fundamentally stupid idea of a joker, and making it only hit one rank solves none of its problems

loyalty card is, and I will say it again, not a good joker in concept. the fact that you wanna make it into a dumber acrobat with needle weakness isn’t helping it in any way

buffing vamp is tolerable but to be quite honest it’s really not that hard to just enhance stuff and then play it. tarot builds aren’t difficult to pivot to

the reworked flowerpot keeps all of what’s stupid about the old one, that’s the issue

the reason we don’t need gem to be rng dependent econ is cause we have two of them already. also, another uncommon that relies on the same niche uncommon to be consistent isn’t what you wanna have.

satellite is like cloud nine in function, and typically before picking it up you’ve used a good few planets, 3 to 5 on it at mid antes is normal. my solution for satellite is to reduce its buy price lol

restive narwhal
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anyways easily one of the worst ideas on here is the seance change
like everyone has said, one spectral an ante is boring, unfun, and un-optimizable
seance is genuinely a blast to build for, and the reward is a bunch of fun spectrals that do funny stuff

light dagger
pulsar nebula
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Photo’s good without retriggers, it does need planets but that’s not even anything against it

wispy agate
wispy agate
onyx jacinth
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you do also want the stronger and harder to get hands since 2x on pair base mult isn't the greatest thing

restive narwhal
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+2 mult before steels oh my god it’s so broken

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honestly though photo is fine
works nicely with straight and/or flush when you have +m on card hits, of which there are several