#Poker Hand Viability

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warm tapir
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đŸ§”

lilac rampart
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flush and high card are easily my top 2

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A lot of tarot cards and spectral cards to help you make life easier for them too

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Flush also scales well and has some pretty neat synergies

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High Card on the other hand, while it requires some additional things to make it work a bit better, is also really good and has things like stones and ace/face cards to help out

vagrant nest
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I always start the 300 blind with a knnockout Full House and usually continue that trajectory. Works well with a lot of Tarot and spectral cards, and the Earth card appears a ton in packs in my runs.

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  1. Full house
lilac rampart
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and well, Full House is just... Full House

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it just is

warm halo
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Yeah, imo flushes were still ridiculously good before the buff, now they are even better
But oh man, if you run into the Arm... (that will probably need some alteration to it, I'm happy it's not among the regular demo bosses :D)

lilac rampart
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Arm is the flush killer yea

oblique wharf
subtle jacinth
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this will be an interesting poll 🍿

vagrant nest
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Once you pick up telescope pretty much any poker hand is winnable

lilac rampart
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next poll should be top 3 hardest hands to build around lmao

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so straight flush and flush house can autowin

sullen shale
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straight flush and flush house are some of my most common builds

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idk maybe I just get lucky with my joker pulls

lilac rampart
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i feel so bad for pair

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it didn't do anything to deserve this

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not even a single vote

swift wing
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Pair kinda sucks just bcuz it doesn't have a good niche

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If you want a low hand, go high card, if you want anything else, there are better options than pair

spare frost
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A lot of high card synergies work with pair while pair scores slightly more points and is very consistent without arcana packs

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A lot of the top random seed skipless speedruns use it in their builds, including my personal best

oblique wharf
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💀

glad pecan
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first poll in a while where I am surprised by the results, flush house is way too strong compared to five of a kind's really weak base score

sullen shale
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five of a kind is easier to pull off

glad pecan
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i can get a flush house in a single 3-suit-convert

sullen shale
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i can get five of a kind in either strength or death

rugged willow
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No love for Flush House?

glad pecan
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lol

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also this idea I haven't tried but I find it weird that current straight (with it having better scaling than flush/full house right now) is this low in the scores

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I mean it does feel easier to play flush/full house because the choice of discard is very obvious to me

sullen shale
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straight can fairly easily be made into straight flush

glad pecan
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straight flush isn't high in this poll either :p

sullen shale
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that i dont understand

swift wing
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Flush house is definitely the highest peak scores (and not that difficult to pull off) but it's also not necessarily the easiest to pull off unless you know exactly how to set up & support it

subtle jacinth
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i think flush house is ridiculously easy on abandoned. but i dont think abandoned is any strong frame of balance, so i chose based on yellow deck

sullen shale
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imo flush house has less jokers to support it

swift wing
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I think a lot of people just build into whatever they play in the first few blinds rather than pushing for flush house

sullen shale
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i play flush house in the first few blinds balatrojoker

warm tapir
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I must be biased here - when I do play I gravitate towards Straight builds. Either that or maybe the meta has been set before the most recent straight buff patch

glad pecan
# sullen shale that i dont understand

i kinda understand that... a bit, straight flush takes more effort to consistently make happen than even 5oak (but you also need effort to level it up, unlike flush house)

sullen shale
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i gravitate towards full house/flush house builds mostly because they're really good early and don't drop off enough to discourage them later on

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even with bad luck a flush house build still wins most of the time

spare frost
subtle jacinth
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I think full house as a build is very overrated. It has slightly higher base values than 3 of a kind, but that's its only upside compared to 3oak. Both have the same increase of chips and mult from planets, so they scale at the same rate, but instead of playing an extra pair for your full house, you can instead just play the 3oak and hold on to the pair for a good chance at a second 3oak. There's nothing in the demo that buffs Full House that doesn't buff 3oak, and 3oak even has a couple extra benefits from Half Joker, Splash, and Stone cards.

glad pecan
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full house is at a point where you can reasonably make it frequently, so it seems like a good type of hand to play a lot.... I don't think people even notice how 'weird' it is that its scaling value is equal to 3oak, I didn't notice until someone was like "I love the 3oak planet" lol

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but I agree with you

prisma lantern
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I asked earlier whether or not there was any synergistic joker with two pairs
Two pairs are probably the worst hand to form a strategy around i believe, are there any jokers coming in the full release to enable a two pair build?

warm tapir
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Well Stone cards to an extent (same goes with pair though) and the fact that you get to throw in 2 more potentially enhanced cards compared to a pair

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I don't think it's good at all mind you

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It's really bait because building around more complicated hands is a more interesting design space anyway

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But to answer your question no I don't have any 2 pair specific jokers

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There are a couple of 'includes a pair' jokers in full game

glad pecan
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does it trigger twice on two pairs :p

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that seems like something this game would do

warm tapir
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No they are like the other jokers in the demo, conditionsal

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'if', not 'for every'

glad pecan
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are there any jokers that want you to play exactly pairs and not include 3, 4, 5 of the card?

warm tapir
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Not explicitly, but like 8 ball you might want to only play the pair instead

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There are a couple like that I think

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But nobody is asking for a pair/2pair buff right?

subtle jacinth
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it'd be more interesting

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otherwise they'll get ignored in most games

glad pecan
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well I've never made a run with two pairs, so it seems like it would be cool if you carved some niche for it somehow

prisma lantern
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I like it whenever roguelikes have special items to help target certain builds, and I feel like every hand type build should get a chance to shine with some of its own unique stuff

subtle jacinth
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although i did just have a 2-pair bus/supernova game, so it's not like there's nothing for them

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the higher the hand you can squeeze into bus/nova, the better

prisma lantern
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Well, I'm talked about specifically targeting two pairs instead of synergies that can be applied to any build
Ultimately I'm fine if there isn't a two pair specific thing, but it would be interesting to have a run with its own dedicated jokers rather than using stuff like stone and enhanced cards and "any build jokers" like supernova

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Also, unrelated , but i can't think of the word used to define something that can be used in many cases, so I just put in "any build" heh

rugged willow
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The big thing for me is not "how hard is it to make the hand" but "how hard is it to win once I have the hand"
And I feel Flush House, by having such high base score, needs very little in the form of joker support

glad pecan
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the "buildaround" is almost jokey wording imo

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why need to build around it when you can just play it once and get so many points lol

rugged willow
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It's so consistent, I got a 5 win streak without using any shop rerolls. Sold all jokers in the final round and ended with $200 minimum (from not rerolling)

swift wing
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Straights are definitely powerful now I just don't love playing them personally

gaunt gate
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i honestly dont get why no one is saying four of a kind

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i find its really easy to build around

rugged willow
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Yeah, but will it give you enough points long term?

gaunt gate
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its enough to beat the demo, which is what the question is explicitely asking

swift wing
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I only play 4oak if I fail to hit my 5oak lol

rugged willow
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I think there's variance there. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. And 5of's have a higher probability of having enough points simply by being worth more points to begin with

swift wing
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For me, to make consistent 4oaks you need to dupe cards. If you are heavily duping cards, it ends up being trivial to just make a 5oak instead

gaunt gate
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idk if im just unlucky but no matter how many arcana packs i buy i never seem to get enough card dupes to make 5oak viable

teal ravine
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why five of a kind is high up there 💀

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"easiest"

subtle jacinth
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ouija

gaunt gate
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i honestly dont remember the last time i took a spectral pack

swift wing
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Spectral packs are very strong you should take them more

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Very fun too

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Volatile but powerful

gaunt gate
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yeah i guess ill try that and see if my opinion changes

rugged willow
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The question is which is easiest to build a winning run around. Not necessarily which hand is the easiest to make.

teal ravine
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so easiest to win with ?

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hIgH cArD

rugged willow
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at least 15 people think so, yeah

warm tapir
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I wonder how many players assume that all planet cards have roughly equal scaling as well

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Because pluto is so much worse than neptune/saturn/ceres

rugged willow
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scales worse but costs the same

warm tapir
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That could be a UI issue

swift wing
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Yeah that's something that could be made more noticable

warm tapir
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It's not very explicit that the chip/mult numbers on the planets are the amount they upgrade by

woven tangle
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I saw someone say that it could be useful to show what the current mult and chip amounts are for the level you have when hovering over planet cards

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It would be a nice quality of life thing instead of having to check your stats

swift wing
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Gives a good sense of scale as well

glad pecan
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I'll say, I noticed the scaling :p kinda feels obvious? at least it's obvious straight flush had a better scaling than other hands (pre-update) it just wasn't so much better that it looked worth it

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pluto is also a "oh what the heck I'm never getting neptune, might as well +10 some weak high cards idk"

pearl bane
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maybe also showing the planet tooltip when hovering over the hand in "Poker Hands" could help

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I always need to check the collection separately to find the scaling numbers

swift wing
rugged willow
subtle jacinth
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i think straights are underrated and they're still not in my top 3 hands

rugged willow
swift wing
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After the buff definitely underrated

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They just aren't as fun for me personally

rugged willow
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Something which has brought me more consistency is doing things like Picking Fool for Planets over Hermit because the scaling is that good

swift wing
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Oh yeah I def do that

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Fool on your preferred planet feels so strong lol

rugged willow
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Huge difference between what my gut used to tell me

subtle jacinth
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can confirm fool on planets is very strong

pearl bane
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I'm honestly surprised that Full House is so high, what's the build like?

lethal mist
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it's just people play into full houses more frequently as before the straight buff patch full houses can easily one shot the first $300 small blind

subtle jacinth
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yeah it's easy to gravitate towards that

pearl bane
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full house is great if you don't have a build, especially in the early blinds

subtle jacinth
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full house is also the highest hand that's reasonable to make from the beginning, so even without the SB one shot, it's still what people will intuit is the best

viral compass
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yeah for me full house is just consistent and doesnt need any specialization

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i really like straight builds but they just dont work out as consistently

lethal mist
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to add onto this finding a and making a 3OAK and a pair for a full house is easier than finding 5 consecutive numbers for a straight,

rugged willow
lethal mist
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well

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technically it’s still 5 cards

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but

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a full house is more versatile than a straight

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if you find any 3OAK, you can find any pair and vice versa

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compared to a straight, you have to look for very specific numbers

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for example a K Q J 9 # # # # hand, you would discard the four cards in attempt to find a 10,

rugged willow
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The mathologists seem to think a straight is easier to draw than a full house. Hence, full house is ranked higher in poker

lethal mist
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you have a point there

subtle jacinth
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2 pairs looking for full house has up to 4 hits in the deck, 2 of both ranks
inside straight also has up to 4 hits in the deck, 4 of one rank
outside straight (rare) has up to 8 hits in the deck, 4 of both of the outside hits

i'd say they're close to the same, especially from experience

rugged willow
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Without discard, a natural straight is about 3 times as likely as a natural full house

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According to the mathologists

subtle jacinth
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yeah, that much is true

pearl bane
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is this assuming Texas Hold'em rules (seven card hand, take best five)?

subtle jacinth
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discard strategies i think change a lot though

lethal mist
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yeah

rugged willow
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Assuming you try to complete the hand you're dealt, the probability of completing it is closer to the same, but straights still have a slight edge.

With a straight, assuming you already have 4 cards, you're looking for 8 (outside draw) or 4 (inside draw, more likely) cards.

With a full house, you have 4 outs at best.

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But this assuming "complete the partial hand you've been dealt." But you're more likely to be dealt more of a straight than part of a full house

subtle jacinth
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i did leave out the possibility of drawing a 3oak first for full house since that's pretty rare

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my intuition says rarer than an outside straight though

rugged willow
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Whether it's 3 and 1 or 2 and 2, there are only 4 other cards of the same rank left

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I count the 4of draw as a win for full house

subtle jacinth
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yeah

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you could hold 2 singles with the 3oak for 2 possible hits, but you're only discarding 3, although i do believe that to be optimal

viral compass
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theres the case of 3 pair though, which means you need 1 of 6 cards

subtle jacinth
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i always discard 1 pair from that because only drawing 2 cards isn't worth

viral compass
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im so used to juggler that i forgot base hand size is 8 lmao

subtle jacinth
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lol

rugged willow
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More outs versus less draws. Maximizing draws improves your odds

subtle jacinth
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actually i wonder if it's correct to discard TWO pairs in that scenario đŸ€”

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that'd be crazy if true

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completely unintuitive

viral compass
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on an unrelated note id really like more pair and two-pair specific jokers

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that dont affect the higher hands

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its been said already but high-card just takes the cake for the low hands

warm tapir
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I'm adding a joker that buffs when you play exactly 4 cards, should help both 2 pair and 4oak builds

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Both need a boost

subtle jacinth
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cool

oblique wharf
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is that the green jimbo

subtle jacinth
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i was going to suggest half joker give increasingly more mult for smaller and smaller hands instead of flat 15 for 3 or less đŸ€”

oblique wharf
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but also half joker gives 15 mult, which is a lot early but in comparison to things like bus or really anything that scales it is tiny

rugged willow
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Buff Flush House again. Only 15 votes. 😇

subtle jacinth
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yeah, it's gotta be the nuke hand - 1,000 x 100 and nothing less

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||(joke)||

viral compass
prisma lantern
glad pecan
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after all this acronymification of "oak" there better be a pun with it in the full game lol

lethal mist
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idea: Oak Joker? (joker but a tree)

teal ravine
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imagine one of a kind hand, if you play card that you have only one copy of in deck, you get some hight mult and chips

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or joker give that.

gusty minnow
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I’ve only ever managed to win with Flush

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It seems easier to make work since you can have the most cards affect your score, the cards can be higher, and the base score and multiplier is very good too

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The math behind Flush is also easier

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In my opinion, anyways

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You can just look at the ratio of the suit you want to the cards left in your deck, and you don’t particularly care which of those you hit. You also have more chances to score multiple Aces/Face/10 cards that give you the most chips

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In the Shop, you can improve your Flushes by changing the suits of cards in your deck or removing cards of other suits

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What about Straights? Well, you’ll usually have a 4 in X chance to hit the card you need, and if your hand is set up for a low number Straight you can’t use the better Face/10 cards. Sometimes you’ll have a hand like [2,4,5,6,8] and you’ll have to choose whether to discard the 2 or the 8 or keep both to hedge.

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How do you improve the chances to get a Straight in the Shop? I don’t even know. If you change the rank of your cards, aren’t you just making an OAK build? Wouldn’t it be better to make all cards have the same rank instead of diluting your deck with different ranks?

woven tangle
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The only idea i have for that would be to add three new tarot cards that you have to select 3 cards for and itll convert them to either 10,9,8 / 7,6,5, / 4,3,2 depending on the card, but that would dilute the tarot card pool which is already very full and practically maxed out on tarot cards anyway i feel like

gusty minnow
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They’re useful but boring, so I think collapsing them would give more room for interesting Tarots

hasty tundra
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even an "add cards in a sequence" tarot wouldn't really help that much, you're also getting rid of cards from another possible sequence
it's still a benefit, but not that much, especially if you can't choose the sequence

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I think straight builds could benefit from its own unique jokers/effects that play a more active role in the game to let you dig through your deck more, giving them a different identity compared to other builds

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more discard synergy could be nice to help it, something like "play a straight -> +1 discard"

glad pecan
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I cannot tell if people are unaware of the planet buff (like, a level 2 straight already gives more points than a level 2 flush or a level 2 full house and it only continues scaling because straight planets are 50% better now) or have tried and like, think it's not enough :p

gusty minnow
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Because apparently every run I make turns into Flush

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Idk if it's just a personal skill issue or if it's generalized skill issue

slim kraken
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The reason why straight flushes are so low is that they are pretty much only viable if you have 4 fingers

hasty tundra
blazing stone
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I'll just add that my 18-win streak was done mostly by forcing flush every single game, with the occasional high card or runner (straight) build.
I eventually lost due to taking an early spectral pack and converting all to one rank and going for a 4-of-a-kind build. Lost to Water cause I never got 4 of a kind, and never got any strength / death to help out the build.
Regret not skipping the spectral pack and just forcing flush again.

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In terms of balance, I think world / star / sun / moon need to be nerfed to just 2 cards. As it stands, they're just way too consistent

swift wing
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That's a great point actually, a lot of other tarot cards have been nerfed to control other builds, I could totally see the suit converters getting nerfed

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They would still be good