Unlock All

[dense plank]

🧵

Remade the poll to be less ambiguous

[deep canyon]

I feel like the choice between B and C depends on the type of unlockables.

If the unluckbles are like "+1 hand to all runs" then having unlock all also give you achievements is kinda sussy but since (afaik) the unlockables are just more jokers in the shop and different starting decks (sidegrades and not really powerups) I think letting achievements for people who wanna skip the unlockaton is reasonable

[glossy forge]

I'd love to have a full unlock profile just so I could check out cool seeds or experience what a fully unlocked save file is like before going back and enjoying the process of achieving everything myself 🙂

[dense plank]

They would be things like steam achievements

Nothing that changes gameplay at all

Oh wait sorry

[glossy forge]

Yeah don't want to devalue the actual achievements

[dense plank]

That is for the ACHIEVEMENTS

The UNLOCKABLES are actual Jokers, Vouchers, decks, things that change how you play

[covert prairie]

That’s how I feel about it as well

[deep canyon]

Well yah ik

[visual kernel]

I think a relevant question would be why there are some jokers/vouchers that need to be unlocked in the first place
If it's to keep the player from being overwhelmed by options at the start, then I feel an unlock all button defeats the purpose

[deep canyon]

I mean if the unlockables are just jokers and starting decks then I don't see why locking the achievements in that profile as there's no tangible upside to unlock all, just sidegrades and more options

[deep canyon]

A new player won't click unlock all; the vast majority of the people go into games wanting to play as intended

[covert prairie]

Well a decent amount of achievements are tied to unlocking things

[deep canyon]

Is it? Do we have a list of achievements?

[covert prairie]

Not a list, just something local said

Yesterday I think?

#🕹・game-discussion message yeah this is in the middle of the discussion

[deep canyon]

I feel like it depends
If you can unluck the yellow deck by having 100$ (ficticious example, doesn't need to be) the achievement can be "Have 100$ with you" rather than "Unlock yellow deck"

So you still have to meet the criteria for unlocking the achievement, rather than giving it to you by just having the yellow deck

[visual kernel]

if that's the case then why are we having this discussion, what's the point of an unlock all button that almost nobody will press
for decks/ascension levels I maybe see it, people want to work their way up the difficulty levels
people I'm sure will press the button if they don't want to spend time doing weird sidequests to unlock certain jokers when they can just use the jokers now
which again leads me to ask, is there some reason local has decided this system of unlocking jokers/vouchers/gameplay elements betters the game experience

[main galleon]

i will press it. i don't want to have to grind to get the full game experience

[deep canyon]

-> If you lost your account and want to start again but don't wanna jump through the hoops of unlocking everything
-> If you've done most of the game legit but there's one unlock condition you don't want / can't do
-> If you're already used to the game by watching youtubers play it and wanna jump straight into the action

My point isn't that people won't click it in general, it's that people who know nothing about it (ie the people that would get overwhelmed by options at the start) won't click it

[spark scroll]

I think the perfect implementation is Slice & Dice - you can grind through and unlock things or you can unlock everything but it doesn't count for various things and you haven't unlocked it themselves

Giving the ability to unlock everything doesn't take anything away but gives people who don't care about achievements or want to experience the "full deck" an opportunity to do so

also niche case but useful for speedrun people who don't care about achievements or want to have a "normal play" profile and a "running" profile - you don't have to worry about grinding out that one last thing before you jump into speedruns

[glossy forge]

Yeah I just want to have a normal save with typical, intended, metaprogression and then a save with everything unlocked for shenanigans

Unlock based metaprogression is one of my favorite systems in modern roguelites and I want to engage with it, but sometimes I just want to try something out 🙂

[frank bloom]

I feel if a "everyhthing unlocked" mode existed from the get go some new players may decide to go for that and kind of shoot themselves in the foot by doing that, as they might not feel like starting a new save with a lot of the stuff they played with so far now locked

as such they would lose out on the, you know, unlocking new shiny stuff high Balatro and many other roguelites offer

also I understand that this is a solo game and you can just not opt to enable it, but an existence of "unlock all" button kind of undermines the effort of unlocking stuff yourself

because, pragmatically, if I do not care about steam achievements, then why unlock stuff the hard way?

I don't know a single card roguelite game with an "unlock all" button and I think it's for good reasons

the unlocking new stuff that you hope you'll find in the next run is part of the experience in such games, in my opinion at least

[cedar barn]

it should be there for people who don't care for the unlocking part of games
I wouldn't use it but the option would make some delighted

[pure crater]

Unlock all should only happen if someone already has a profile which unlocked all

Most of the other rogue likes don’t have that kind of mechanic and I kinda agree. Once you use it, it ruins the anticipation/surprise of a new unlock, and if you decide to make a new save without it, you’d feel like you’re sorely missing out on content you previously had

[lavish flower]

I've had too much fun with the (very limited) demo to think that unlocking new stuff shouldn't be a vital part of Balatro's playcycle

[deep canyon]

Because, pragmatically, why are you spending your time playing a game rather than studying or learning a new skill or working? The answer is that people play games to have fun and relax, not to minmax and get 100%. People will play legit because they find it fun and enjoy the task of unlocking stuff

[lavish flower]

it's plenty fun with barely anything in it. Unlocking stuff should be part of the fun

[deep canyon]

I trust players to know if they'll have more fun unlocking stuff or with everything already unlocked

Look at brotato's accessibility options (sending images in here is disabled for some reason) for example. You can increase or decrease the game's enemy health, enemy damage and enemy speed. You can literally play the game with 0% enemy damage and you still unlock achievements

[spark scroll]

it's a toy let people play how they want

[pure crater]

(I mean, either way with mod support planned post full release, unlock all feels more like a mod feature than a base game feature)

[spark scroll]

*so long as it doesn't negatively impact others

[unborn shell]

I think the option should exist, but be non-obvious, so as to help shepard players towards whatever experience you're actually curating. Perhaps an input cheatcode in the menu, like in days of old.

Would go with the retro vibes

[pure crater]

So

ALLJOKER?

[keen rapids]

I think this is good, but also don't have it be hidden and a "in the know" kinda thing

[silk storm]

I'm not really a fan of the option even existing lol

But I understand if I'm in the minority there

[keen rapids]

using it wouldn't be required

[silk storm]

I know, but having it exist is tempting to a lot of people

Myself included

And I don't want to have to resist that temptation every time I play XD

[keen rapids]

so your issue with an optional feature for everyone in a game is your own lack of self control

[silk storm]

Lmao, fair

[neon knot]

I dont really like B but i think its better for people who lost their save/reinstalled

[dark edge]

I think this a hard thing to talk about without knowing the unlock conditions in the full game or the developer’s intended play experience for new players. I would lean towards not having the feature because people can just download 100% save files or use mods if they really want to skip progression. Daily’s also will exist for people that don’t care about progression or unlocks.

[unborn shell]

Honestly that's an entirely valid justification? Gamers are generally pretty bad at curating their own experiences, that's why it's one of the core jobs of the developer

[unborn shell]

Specifically I think it should be. If discovering new jokers and the like is a core gameplay principle, presenting new players with the ability to forever spoil themselves before they've even tried the game as intended is just a mistake

Making it a hidden function that's always available, but only revealed once you complete the collection for the first time or something ensures that only players who are already seeking to spoil themselves by searching for info online will find it

[keen rapids]

ooo fair

[deep canyon]

That's a very reductive statement and one that really does not hold up to scrutiny. Minecraft, the most well-sold game of all time, is entirely built around the premise of the players making their own fun. Same can be said about games like Magic The Gathering, the GTA series, Animal Crossing, Dungeons & Dragons, etc. Many of the topmost selling games of all time come from this core idea of players making their own fun

[dense plank]

This poll, along with a lot of the metaprogression related questions around the game, revolve around one idea. Is Balatro a tailored experience or a sandbox?
Minecraft is a sandbox, but a game like Last of Us would make no sense if you could do whatever level you wanted/spawn in things to make your experience custom. It's a purposeful experience and there are games that are certainly worse if they let the player do whatever they want.

I can give an example for Balatro - though it's a logical extreme. Why not give the player a button so spawn whatever card they want at any point for any run? That would be giving the player control to make their own fun. But players aren't necessarily able to do that with most games.

I gather this feedback because Balatro exists somewhere in the middle. There are some sandboxy ideas in the game but there are also strong metaprogression themes that I happen to really enjoy, and if I can lead the player down a path that I personally enjoy then I think the player can enjoy it too, even if their impulse would be to skip as much as possible

If Balatro were a true sandbox experience, I think it would lose a lot of the charm of 'the journey' of earning your first win, and naturally discovering more and more absurd synergies. Gating complex content behind metaprogression also helps the player learn at a pace they can understand without feeling like the game is overwhelming them. I love the feeling of doing a challenge and earning a reward as well, and metaprogress scratches that itch for me

Giving people the option to unlock everything could also be giving them the option to have a different experience with the game. My job is to determine if that experience would be worse on average or better on average

[keen rapids]

and I guess along Sicarious' line of thought, does the player know their own wants best

If Balatro were a true sandbox experience, I think it would lose a lot of the charm of 'the journey' of earning your first win, and naturally discovering more and more absurd synergies.
This and the entire last paragraph I completely agree with
Agh this is tough

[dense plank]

As a thought experiment - if you had a button to give you the Stencil in every run, I think most players would take it. But that would greatly reduce the variety of the game and make it a worse experience overall, even if it gives you the dopamine hit when you click it

[deep canyon]

The existence of a cheat engine or sandbox inside of a game does not mean metaprogression can't exist, no? If you can do anything inside of a sandbox then you can still play as intended by not using the sandbox.

What I'm trying to say is if someone like you (has fun and enjoys unlocking along a metaprogression) came to a game like Balatro with an Unlock All button they'd know "I enjoy rogue-likes with metaprogression" and not hit it.

Similarly, someone who hates meta progression can hit it and enjoy the game that way.

[keen rapids]

but do greedy metaprogression enjoyers click it anyway

[deep canyon]

As another thought experiement, if the button said "Cheat mode - for fun sandbox", would you still use it every run or would the reframing of the button change how you use it?

[dense plank]

If I saw that button, I may be tempted and hit the button. I think quite a few people would click it and potentially have a worse experience overall

[keen rapids]

Idea, make that a deck
x2 mult when jokers aren't full 😆

[dense plank]

But the question is how does that compare to the people that feel like they need that button to enjoy the game more?

[glossy forge]

I would lock the button if the save file has any progress - only allow the unlock all button to be used on a completely fresh save (may not be entirely related, just a thought)

[dense plank]

The thought experiment was just meant to illustrate that there are some decisions a player could make that would definitely make their experience worse, so it's not a black and white issue

[glossy forge]

A new player would have the inclination to play a run first instead of unlocking all first, and once they play some they would be unable to unlock all on that profile but could still use it on another

[keen rapids]

I hate human brains 😂

[dense plank]

Basically - some games require the player to 'eat their vegetables' to enjoy them fully. Players can't be trusted to do that in every circumstance

[deep canyon]

Something that is noteworthy is that the more sandboxy and open a game is, in general, the more content you can make out of it in Youtube, which in turn leads to more viral marketability and in turn more people playing. In terms of maximizing total (not per person but total) fun that is very notable

[keen rapids]

and when it's not, you get people like "why can't I play with the fun crazy shit from moment one" after seeing said crazy shit in a video

[glossy forge]

Ultimately, once a single person gets a 100% save, the button will exist and it will be dropping the save into the folder lol

Adding a button for it just increases access

[dense plank]

Isn't minecraft survival mode more popular than sandbox mode?

[glossy forge]

Survival is still a sandbox

"sandbox mode" is called creative

But both are sandbox

[keen rapids]

foreign saves can also have some programming tools leveled against their usage, to deter the lowest common denominator of savviness

[dense plank]

This is an accessibility issue, no way I can prevent skipping metaprogression

[deep canyon]

Minecraft has a limited sandbox (Survival) and a true sandbox (Creative). A true balantro sandbox would be one where you can't lose vs the blinds, can spawn any card anytime and etc.

[dense plank]

I am focusing on the median player

[glossy forge]

Yeah my thinking is that for people who want it, it just reduces friction, and for people who don't - they don't 🤷 I love metaprogression but I have a lot of friends who play Isaac exclusively on complete saves because thats just how they like the game and they have thousands of hours

Equating it to a "get stencil" button is irrelevant imo - new players don't know what "get stencil" means but "unlock all" has some pretty universal implications

[deep canyon]

The median player gets drawn in via youtubers; having a sandbox where people can play is important because even if just 0.1% of the people use it, if these 0.1% are youtubers, it'll have impacted most people's experience with Balantro as a whole since I'd bet most people in here also watch Balantro videos and content creators

[dense plank]

I guess what I am trying to say is that I understand when people say 'how dare you tell me how to have fun', but there are so many parts of game design where that is literally the entire point, creating a rigid framework where the player can explore and find the boundaries. It wouldn't even be a game if I let the player decide everything

So this is one of those boundaries, just trying to feel where it should go. FWIW I am leaning toward adding the button

[keen rapids]

if you do add the button, please make it save specific and with a confirm 🙏

[main galleon]

My experience as someone who has spent a lot of time on roguelike games is that once i have a good grasp of the game, i don't feel the need to have content kept from me for the purpose of better understanding it. I love roguelikes for the different feel of each run, and the more content there is available to me at a time, the more unique runs and combinations I can experience.

In fact, I find that unlocking content over time actually has a negative effect on me - on how I feel about the content I've already unlocked, specifically; the larger the disparity between how often I get to play with two items, the less I want to use the more-seen item and wish I could be playing with the newer item instead. And during the use of a metaprogression system, that disparity between old and new items is always present, and even sticks around for a while after I've unlocked everything, since I've gotten to use the earlier unlocks more than the later ones.

I definitely get that bit of dopamine upon achieving something and getting an in-game reward, but that's pretty much the extent of that reward to me. After that, I still have to wait to see it, and I wish I'd get to see it faster. Anything else just gets in the way of the new experience

[deep canyon]

It depends on what you mean and the scope of "Framework".
You have the base framework - the concept of blinds, scoring and the hands.
Then you have the shop framework - the idea of getting money between blinds, spending on a randomized shop, with packs and etc.
Then you have a content framework atop of it - the specific joker cards and their effects, the individual effects of each tarot card, etc.

You can let players play freely inside of the content framework ("add/remove any joker" for example) but you always have the base framework to ground the entire experience

[dense plank]

This is the reason there is no easy answer here - there are 2 main schools of thought and they are pretty incompatible with each other.

• People that enjoy playing the entire game without grinding any of the unlocks because it just gets in the way of the full version of the game you paid for. Having the unlock button helps with this
• People that enjoy the meta journey, knowing they are in a collective group of players that also needs to work through a set of challenges without shortcuts. Feeling accomplished when they do something hard because it means they actually earned it. Having an unlock all button makes this experience worse for this group, even if they never press it

It's a cursed problem, there is a great talk about problems like this in game dev

[deep canyon]

(Are you talking about that one GDC talk about cursed problems? If so fuck yeah that GDC talk rocks)

[dense plank]

yeah I am, I'll try and link it

I already know there isn't a 'right' answer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ

[deep canyon]

I agree this is something that you'll eventually have to sit down and decide upon.

My 2 cents is that the sandbox option comes on top due to the Youtuber aspect - a youtuber can only keep a series on a meta jounrey game for so long, however a youtuber can keep a series on a sandbox game for much, MUCH longer.

And, at the end of the day, the way people hear about and discover Balatro (or Peglin or Luck Be A Landlord or Backpack Hero so on and so forth) is through Youtubers. At the end of the day, the way I see it, the sandbox option will lead to more people discovering and enjoying the game.

This is why I think the sandbox comes on top - not because it's inherently better (it's not), but because it's simply better for content and that means better marketing.

[dense plank]

My experience has been the opposite though, the GLUK series on the Beta was great because it was a journey for him to get to 100%

And that journey in the full version will be much much longer, and I think very interesting for viewers

Besides I want to make this my game 🙂 and I am lucky that I can because it's just me making these choices

[deep canyon]

Fair; my experience has been watching streamers like Aliensrock - he keeps playing the same games over and over again (Peglin, Backpack Hero, Balatro, etc) until he extinguishes all the available content in the sandbox. All (or most) cool builds, cool in-game challanges, self-imposed challanges, etc

[deep canyon]

True lol, at the end of the day it is your game after all

[main galleon]

I could be wrong about this, but the whole unlock system just doesn't feel like it's necessary in this game. The strongest argument I can see for it is helping ease players into learning it so they're not overwhelmed, but the whole achievement thing is just an attachment. The heart of the game is not within the metaprogression. Yes, there are some cool things that can be done with such a system, and there can be some rewarding moments, but it doesn't have to exist. You could even argue that a metaprogression system invites players to believe that the point of the game is to complete its metaprogression. And unless I'm way off base about this, the roguelike element of unique, generated puzzley runs is the point of the game, the thing you want players to really experience and enjoy.

It may just be the case that this system isn't a good fit for the game, and the problems surrounding it are evidence of that.

[deep canyon]

I love the idea of the decks & stakes metaprogression but I'm similarly ehh about joker metaprogression to be fully honest

[dense plank]

It's odd because I always envisioned that yes, metaprogress is core to the Balatro experience. It is not part of the Demo experience though

Because I had to strip all that out to make it feel much smaller

[main galleon]

I'd be interested to hear what that vision means to you for this game.

[dense plank]

Metaprogression?

[main galleon]

yeah

[dense plank]

The loop I liked was:

• Hey there are some really fun interesting jokers
• wow so many of them are locked I want to learn what they are
• [do some challenge that changes something about how I approach the run, unlocking a new joker]
• Hey this new joker is really cool, I can imagine some interesting synergies, I want to earn more

And look, I get it, people don't all like that

But I do, and I know some people really do as well

[deep canyon]

At the end of the day it's like they say - "Make the game you'd love to play"

[main galleon]

if it's not too much, can i also ask what this game being a Roguelike means to your vision?

[dense plank]

0

[deep canyon]

That's a hell of a question /silly

[main galleon]

wow

[dense plank]

Genre wasn't on the drawing board I guess

So if its like/lite I don't really care all too much. I care more if I think it's fun/not fun

[deep canyon]

As much as I can wave my hand and yell at the cloud I beat Spelunky 1 with no metaprogression, there is no denying that a lot of people enjoy this style of gameplay and there's nothing wrong with that.

[deep canyon]

Based af

[main galleon]

so, the game's main loop of starting with nothing, and progressively getting stronger in unique ways due to procedural generation, isn't core? more of an incidental design

oh, did me saying roguelike communicate i was making a distinction between like/lite? i meant the overall genre

either/or/and/whatever

[dense plank]

Oh I see

[deep canyon]

Every single person has a different definition of rogue-like as a genre; what you mean as "the core principles of rogue-like" can be side stuff for other people

[dense plank]

Yes that was always intended

The loop of starting from 0 and getting OP, losing, then starting from 0 again

[main galleon]

yeah, thankfully my question covers this, i think - asking what the vision was in regards to roguelike/lite/etc

[keen rapids]

metaprogression in that runs get "easier" would make it a lite
but I also hope that once metaprogression becomes a thing, that it is able to be disabled

so you can have "beginner runs" or something like that

[deep canyon]

Very off-track but I find it really funny how many rogue-like definitions endup covering "A single game of Heartstone / Magic The Gathering" as well

[keen rapids]

where chances per joker are higher due to their being less variety (but of course, jokers are on average worse)

[dense plank]

I think that it's kind of moot anyway because of the ascension system

[keen rapids]

the what

[spark scroll]

Doesn’t have to be easier - sometimes it’s just more

[keen rapids]

hence easier in quotes, that is what I was trying to convey

[deep canyon]

Iirc doesn't one of the main roguelite's let you turn on and off every individual metaproggresion? That's something I always thought was cool

[keen rapids]

different, not necessarily easier

[dense plank]

Look I don't want to get into the whole like/lite thing, it really doesn't matter here because we are talking specifics with this game anyway. There is metaprogress in Balatro

That metaprogress changes how the game is played

Probably easier?

Definitely different

[keen rapids]

in the end I can just delete and recreate a save anyway

❤️

[deep canyon]

I do find it really silly when sometimes a rogue-lite has a unlockable item that is very bad and at common rarity, making the game actively harder when you unlock it as it muddles the item pool. That makes people actively avoid the unlock condition to not make their runs worse

[dense plank]

I'd like to think that the variety and potential synergy can make up for that

[glossy forge]

Possibly controversial but I kinda love metaprogression that makes the game harder

[dense plank]

That is ascension right?

[deep canyon]

I agree 100%, as long as it's toggleable. Like you can go back to a previous version (ie you can play ascension 0 again)

[dense plank]

Metaprogress difficulty

[glossy forge]

Nah Isaac has a ton of stuff that permanently and irreversibly makes runs harder

[main galleon]

sticky nickel :)

[glossy forge]

Like unlocking the cellar, an objectively harder chapter 1

[deep canyon]

Isn't Isaac like fucked as fuck in general

[keen rapids]

No, I like that too - to make runs consistently hard, if you can't "solve" the game

[glossy forge]

Isaac is fucked yeah lol

But I still love it

[main galleon]

aren't troll bombs unlockables

am i remembering that right

[dense plank]

lmao

Ed cmon

[glossy forge]

I would never use it as any ideal standard in any way, but I love many things about it

No matter how fucked the game is, it's still fun and that's impressive lol

[keen rapids]

ed?

[deep canyon]

I'm a yugioh player I can't complain lol
Isaac is one of those games that knows what it's going for and will go for it; I respect a lot out of that. They took the "make the game you'd enjoy playing" idea and went for it

[main galleon]

i think isaac gets a pass because its theme is very much "this game does not want to be fair to you, play if you like suffering"

and then winstreakers get upset when unfair game is unfair

[glossy forge]

I don't think it needs a pass, you play a ton and you get better at the game so it's only fair that it gets harder to compensate 🤷

[keen rapids]

exactly!!!!

[dense plank]

You know what that reminds me of a pretty central idea behind Balatro. I made the cards look fun and interesting and have cool effects because I know how much people love collectables. So I thought the whole metaprogress thing could lean into that and become almost a pokedex type experience

[glossy forge]

Isaac has no ascension - there is normal/hard mode but honestly that system is fucked, objectively harder metaprogress is how it gets harder for dedicated players

[keen rapids]

the white star sticker thingies scratch my itches, I love that part so much

10/10 feature

[dense plank]

Where having something blank in your collection feels bad

[main galleon]

i can definitely feel that collectibles theme in the special editions

[deep canyon]

I've gonna say the words that are gonna take the cat out of the box

Make it so on the collection screen you can click on any individual card and it shows you all the variations of it - normal, foil, prismatic, negative, etc.

And you must have gotten the card in that rarity in a normal run for it to appear

Give us the Balatro shinyhunting Thunk >:3

[main galleon]

that very much taps into the card collector feels for people (and i like shiney rare things too)

[unborn shell]

Honestly, D&D is less of a game and more of a framework for a game. It's more the equivalent of an engine, through which the GM works with the players to provide the curated experience

[dense plank]

I think that illustrates why I want metaprogress the most, the collectible idea. I spent a lot of time and effort making that part feel satisfying

Which is veeeery different than what is fun about the moment to moment gameplay

So 2 separate systems that were always meant to work in tandem

And you only really have one half of the picture in the demo

[glossy forge]

I'm very excited to get the other half of the picture

BEYOND excited in all honesty

[main galleon]

i might be cooking something here

[deep canyon]

If you make us collect every single prismatic joker I will respect the heck out of you. If you find a prismatic/negative joker in a run and buy it you permanently can see it in your collection

[dense plank]

When I say this was always meant to be a 100+ hour game I really meant it and the metaprogress was one of the motivators I was planning on using

[dense plank]

I have thought about this too, I think that would be great

More things to collect 🙂

[deep canyon]

Having a museum of stupid junk that I cant do anything with but look at is always such a fun part of games; I'm not super into mechanical metaprogression but give me the dang museum games, I love the dang museum

[unborn shell]

I do like completionism

[deep canyon]

Unlocking the bimblo joker to use in runs: I sleep
Unlocking the supershinymegafoil 1 in a quadrabillion bimblo joker in my museum: 🥺 👀

[dense plank]

I don't know what you just said but yes

[unborn shell]

One of my favourite gaming experiences was getting good at the fishing minigame in SDV so I could get every fish at maximum quality, back when that required you to get perfect catches on every fish, including the ones where that was probably not meant to be possible 😛

[deep canyon]

In Yugioh Master Duel every time you obtain a Super Rare or Ultra Rare card you have a 1% chance of it being prismatic. It does literally nothing but look shinier. I have some terrible awful cards in prismatic but gosh dangit they are MY terrible awful cards in prismatic

I love shiny hunting and shiny-adjacent mechanics they're so fun/funny

[main galleon]

I think our approach to rogue...stuff is fundamentally different. There are things we both enjoy, but it seems where we differ is that you really enjoy the journey to become better and eventually overcome the hardest challenges of the game, maybe even the procedural generation providing some of that challenge by forcing you to adapt every run.

I would call this an upward journey, and it seems to fit what you enjoy about the metaprogression aspect you want in the game.

Am I on to something here?

[unborn shell]

Well done checklist grinding can be so fun that it's basically the entire driving force behind OSRS's continued success as well

[dense plank]

There are so many rogue.. type games that have that 'upward journey' though

I think you are right

Yes

[glossy forge]

I'm using roguetype now

[dense plank]

This is also why I don't really like playing seeded runs in anything ever

[main galleon]

I'm not trying to say they don't, just that I might have a different way that I enjoy roguelikes

[unborn shell]

Good times back when Hearthstone was still good when I reached the stage of realising "I can run an all gold deck", and damn if I didn't do that despite it being hot trash lol

[deep canyon]

I'm not gonna lie, I'm a Spelunky 1 child.
For me when I think of roguestuff's upward journey I think of throwing yourself over and over again into a brick wall, each run getting slightly slightly further and further, becoming better and better not by metaprogression but by just genuinely becoming better and better at the game so that, at the end you can look back and say "The game didn't changed, I did. Look how far I came"

[deep canyon]

same tbh, banger term

[dense plank]

And why I was so surprised anyone plays seeded runs in Balatro, let alone how popular it has been

[unborn shell]

Seeded is best for "number go up"

It's basically a puzzle game

[dense plank]

It's a different game completely

[glossy forge]

I'm pretty much the same - I don't really play seeded very much but I really enjoy the community aspect of seeing how far people can push things & understanding how the clock ticks

[unborn shell]

How do you make biggest number

[deep canyon]

As a game designer one of the top skills to have imo is seeing stuff that other people might enjoy that you in particular might not, like seeds in here

[deep canyon]

I respect the heck out of people that can do this well

[dense plank]

Well I thought I would add it and make it robust, because technically doing that was really fun

and this game was never meant to sell a copy

Until way after I added seeds

[unborn shell]

I will say that my most typical seeded play is actually playing abandoned deck, seeing a holo card in first shop, then going "fuck it I picked wrong deck" and restarting same seed with yellow deck

[deep canyon]

Yellow deck my beloved

[unborn shell]

Or vice versa with a round 1 spectral wraith

[glossy forge]

Ngl part of me wishes I could choose my deck after blind 1 lmao

Sometimes the shop lends itself to specific decks for sure

[deep canyon]

The power of seeds 💖

[dense plank]

I love that people like seeded mode so much. I am disappointed I don't get it because I feel like there's a whole side to the community I dont understand. That is why I talk about seeded things so much, I don't want to ruin that experience when I update things that modify how seeded runs work, and feedback from people that actually do play seeded runs is the only way I can make sure I am not ruining the core of their experience

[unborn shell]

I never really do full seeded runs though, I only do it for really early game stuff where I feel like I'm missing out on the more interesting run due to a blunder or bad blind pick

[deep canyon]

It endsup falling back onto the sandbox vs planned game discussion - in a way, seeds are a super flexible sandbox if you can find the right seed. You can effectively start with any joker, get any ouija, get any spectral card, etc. It's a massive sandbox, if you have the seed for it

[glossy forge]

I really appreciate that you invest so much energy into making sure those people are served even if I'm not one of them, I think strong seed support up front & mod support on the tail end are really the best ways to support a healthy roguetype game

[deep canyon]

In a way the seed system is a cheat code system as well - you put code XXXX to guarantee a Stencil start, or code YYYYY to get a Ouija to start

[main galleon]

essay incoming

[dense plank]

That is true - but it's out of reach enough from metaprogress players that it won't tarnish their experience either

[main galleon]

I think the difference is that my enjoyment of roguetypes comes from a...sideways? journey - I like roguelikes because there are so many things that are possible. Sure, a Flush run might happen hundreds of times when I play, but every single one is going to be different, even if I end up with a similar ending build from time to time. Every decision point is different: even if a run ends similarly, I might find one flush joker earlier than the other run, I may have to have made different survival decisions, I may have decided to try something completely new and out of the blue on a hunch and it works!

Instead of this being a journey where I can see just how much I can push myself to be better, it's a journey to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes. There are still so many things to discover, but instead of it being in unlocks, it's just how many different ways the game's rules and restrictions can still lead to a win. It's less for the challenge, and more for the exploration.

It's also not as far as pure sandbox; although sandbox can create all sorts of new combinations and experiences easily, the restrictions of the game allow for discoveries a sandbox could never make. Normal runs scratch the itch of exploring all the possibilities - and a big one for me especially is discovering something no one else figured out yet...or in really, really rare cases, maybe even couldn't have found it out without me. This is also why I like challenge runs, as it also pushes the boundaries of what we think is possible.

I hope this adequately explains the differences in our enjoyment and approach to roguetypes

[glossy forge]

I think when a lot of people play seeds the goals shift - it's less of a "cheat mode" and more of setting your own win condition

[deep canyon]

I agree! I feel like there is a balance that can be achieved - enough sandbox toys and tools for the people who want but also in a way that won't tarnish the metaprogress player, and seeds are a prime example for that

[unborn shell]

Honestly, that'd be a fun idea to pursue. There's already "tutorial" seed, having some other hand-crafted "cheat code" seeds might be a fun Easter Egg

[deep canyon]

In a way setting your own win condition is a part of cheat mode, no? When you're in creative mode in Minecraft your goals also shift, same with custom runs in Peglin

[deep canyon]

Instead of this being a journey where I can see just how much I can push myself to be better, it's a journey to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes. There are still so many things to discover, but instead of it being in unlocks, it's just how many different ways the game's rules and restrictions can still lead to a win. It's less for the challenge, and more for the exploration.
I also really agree with this as well; I love roguestuff like this, be here, in LBAL or similar

[glossy forge]

I think goals shifting is more common in roguetypes but in other genres it skews more towards a raw power fantasy that can also tend to ruin the enjoyment of the base game

[unborn shell]

"Nojoker" seed gives you a seed with no jokers in the shop whatsoever, and no Judgement or Wraith cards anywhere on the horizon, or something like that

[deep canyon]

You could split roguestuff in two categories, the way I see it - hard as balls "each run you inch slightly closer to winning" roguestuff and "each run is wildly different and has a unique and wacky new synergy you discovered" roguestuff. Honestly, I could see them being called by different names and being considered different genres in like 20 years

(Of course not everything fits neatly - it's genre talk, after all - but it's a interesting framework to approach roguestuff)

[dense plank]

I certainly understand yes - and both are equally valid. I do have to make design decisions with both groups in mind too and that muddies the waters. I think the crux is the seeded community enjoys the science, and the unseeded players enjoy overcoming a challenge with uncertainties

Is that a fair grouping?

[main galleon]

i don't consider myself in just seeded or unseeded. im in both

[unborn shell]

There's also the broader "each game is slightly different" element independent of the metaprogress and discovery stuff

[deep canyon]

I can see that, yeah! The unseeded players enjoy seeing how far they can take their skills and seeded community finding cool new seeds, finding and optimizing high score seeds, finding fun/overpowered/silly seeds, etc

[dense plank]

I guess the 'science' thing for me isn't appealing because... well I already know how deep it goes

It's all a ruse

smoke and mirrors

[main galleon]

idk, you've seemed pretty surprised when people made some challenge runs possible

[dense plank]

What do you mean?

Like beating the game with no jokers?

[deep canyon]

Oh, the secrets that a roguestuff dev holds. I will never forget the day that people discovered the secret item ID thing in Gungeon

[unborn shell]

Ah, but do you know exactly what the highest score is? I mean, I know what the highest scoring hand in the demo would be, but I don't know if the seed to generate that hand actually exists

[main galleon]

uh oof, i don't remember 100% which ones you actually reacted to

[dense plank]

I mean more like, people are figuring out how seeds all interact in weird ways and manipulating the systems to do different things

[unborn shell]

Figuring out what the highest scoring hand that's actually possible is fun science... at least in theory 😛

[dense plank]

And trying to understand how all that works is probably fun from the outside but for me it's only surprising when people find a bug or exploit lol

Also the game to me isn't the demo

[deep canyon]

fair lol. It's like they say, poker's not fun with the millenium eye

[dense plank]

So the highest score in my mind is inf

[deep canyon]

that's a fucking SCARY sentence to just drop

[main galleon]

it seemed to me that your grouping still left me and people like me out, because the unseeded community isn't 100% about honing their own skill, and the seeded community isn't 100% about learning the inner workings of the game and breaking it that way

[deep canyon]

No grouping will ever catch everyone; they're more rough generalizations

[main galleon]

i exist in both seeded and unseeded because even though i'm not interested as much in pushing my skill or breaking the game, i still want to interact in the game's given ruleset and restrictions while seeing what's possible within them

[dense plank]

yeah I didn't mean you were a seeded person

[main galleon]

respectfully, i want to say that's more just semantics. im not asking for perfect groupings

[main galleon]

this is the big thing to me

[deep canyon]

By the way, can I say I really appreciate how awesome this space is, having so many different but respectful views on game design and direction like this. Genuinely awesome

[dense plank]

It's great, it's also super valuable for me to have a group of people that actually care about the game enought to share their opinions on it

In a constructive way

[main galleon]

maybe it would help if there was someone else here on the server that had a similar approach to the game as me, as i might not be able to communicate this clearly enough on my own

[unborn shell]

Now that makes me curious - is that a catchall for "numbers larger than integer limit", or is actual inf possible?

[dense plank]

No I completely understand what you are saying and I know there are many others on the server that feel the same

Honesly most of the people in the seed channel are not just seeded players but would probably identify with what you are saying

[deep canyon]

I don't think most people that play seeded exclusively play seeded

[dense plank]

Like all the crazy unseeded challenges, those are very interesting, test the depth of the mechanics, and don't have anything to do with metaprogress

Like the 'play 1 of each hand' run

or high cards only

Knowing how seeds work doesn't really help with any of that either

[glossy forge]

I only recently managed to pull off an unseeded fullskip (in the demo ofc) and tbh as frustrating of a challenge as it was, it felt insanely rewarding lol

Felt like I was really overcoming something

[dense plank]

Ugh I am so pumped to see people go though the challenges

I wanna make some brutal ones

For the sadists

And the people that want the 0.1% steam achievements

[deep canyon]

👀

Thunk all-in on the completionist gigacolection side 🙏

[dense plank]

I played the omelette the other day (start with 5 eggs, earn no interest or money from bosses)

was SO fun

[deep canyon]

That sounds fun af

Is there a universe we get a challange editor for Balatro?

[dense plank]

It changes one of the important mechanics of the game enough to the point that it almost feels like a different game

[main galleon]

Alright, so to circle back to the beginning - this is why i would want the unlock all, and also would like to have it without losing achievements.

I really want to explore the full depths of the game from the start, and don't want to feel like the content that's unlocked first is getting stale for me while I grind enough to get the full experience.

And for the achievements, one way or another, unlocks/achievements have requirements attached - some of those requirements, it seems, you're interested in making into interesting challenges, even if just at a really basic level. And that is right up my alley, being someone who likes seeing the different and cool things you can achieve within the ruleset.

I understand that the desired effect is to be a journey for the player as they get the unlocks, but for me its an acknowledgement that you thought that this particular thing the player did was cool enough to put a nod to in the game about it. And the fact that they're in the game, but I wouldn't be allowed them just because of how I engage with the game, even though I view my approach as valid expression of my skill, doesn't seem right to me.

[dense plank]

I guess where we differ is how would that relate to an achievement like golden god in issac, or 'Complete 100% of your collection'

[unborn shell]

Must score exactly the goal, rather than equal or greater?

[main galleon]

i wouldn't have a problem with "complete 100% of your collection" being gated. that one makes sense to gate

[unborn shell]

That's about the most brutal-but-possible challenge I can imagine

[dense plank]

Because there are many achievements like that

[main galleon]

to me it's kind of like having "story mode only" achievements

those particular achievements make sense to restrict in that context, but others wouldn't

[dense plank]

There's another reason doing that appeals less to me - it is adding scope for work I need to do on a system that is implemented already

So I made this poll to better understand the cost/benefit

[main galleon]

yeah

although, the poll seems to be asking a game design question rather than a player experience question

i think a lot of people are voting B because they're afraid C means something it doesn't mean

[unborn shell]

Achievements are basically fodder for players who want to show off how much better they are than everyone else, without the "everyone else" actually noticing, as I see them

They're pseudo-competitive

[dense plank]

It's impossible for me to ask this question properly based on player experience when nobody actually has the game, knows the unlocks, or knows the achievements

[unborn shell]

And with that in mind, enforcing the "official" ruleset is generally a good thing

[dense plank]

So yeah the question is very generic

[main galleon]

maybe i need to rephrase

[dense plank]

But it can't be much more specific

[deep canyon]

Nyehhhh, I don't see achievements as a competition, I see them more of a personal collection than something to measure against other people

[main galleon]

asking the average player what is a good game design choice may not be a good idea because they don't understand game design

[dense plank]

It's better than not asking IMO

I have pivoted on a few strong opinions in the past from feedback like this

[main galleon]

yes, but you're using this to measure cost and benefit, and it may be giving decieving results

[deep canyon]

Game designers are like doctors - they know the medicine but only the player knows the sickness

[main galleon]

i'm not saying the poll is bad

[deep canyon]

And, similarly, the players don't know the medicine

[main galleon]

just that this particular question might not be achieving the desired accuracy

and i'm giving reasons to back up that idea

[dense plank]

I also know to temper the results based on things like survivorship bias, what is currently in game

[main galleon]

i know this could theoretically happen with any poll

[dense plank]

I know this is what you want in Balatro, but that doesn't mean it's what is best for the game

[main galleon]

i am not as small minded as that

from the talk i've seen in the last conversation about this stuff, before the poll today, it seemed like a few people that spoke up were under the impression that an "unlock all", which is a very powerful phrase, would give the player too much power, to the point where achievements really aren't achievements, since the player would be getting a shortcut to make them super easy

that's why i think there could be a problem with the poll results

not because i think the polls are unusable because of their flaws. they certainly move things in a positive direction

i think people are under the wrong impression about what the consequences of an unlock all really means

[dense plank]

I think you are focusing on the benefit and saying that I don't understand fully what that benefit really is because I can essentially decouple the metaprogress and objective achievements and allow players to fairly earn those achievements even with an unlocked profile.

What I am suggesting is that there are costs nobody here gets but me. I need to write the code to do that, I need to make sure it is robust and tested, I need to make sure I can fit that under my timelines along with a ton of other work I need to do in the backend, and I need to make sure that doing so won't cause more harm than good for the game when it comes to player enjoyment of them misunderstanding unlocking everything like they misinterpreted the poll.

Is that cost worth the benefit?

[deep canyon]

To be truthfull, it's not stuff we can really help with - we don't know the backend, the timelines or any of that. It's beyond what we can help, tbfh

[main galleon]

i understand there are costs, and as you've described, a lot of them.
the point of the poll is to find out if the cost is worth the benefit, right?
that's why im pointing out that a misinterpretation of the poll, the thing that you're using to determine the cost and benefit, would be detrimental to the goal you're trying to achieve

[dense plank]

The poll is to determine if there is a benefit

The cost is mainly on my end

Like the whole deck peeking thing

That was so much work

But a ton of people asked about it all the time

[main galleon]

i don't see how this affects my point

[dense plank]

How would you word the poll

[main galleon]

i don't know. it's late

i think i'm done for tonight

[deep canyon]

bwuh...

Welp, gnight'

[main galleon]

spent a lot of energy writing as much as i did

gnight

[unborn shell]

I mean, this is not how medicine works, the doctor also has to make the diagnosis because people self-diagnose wrong constantly 😛

[deep canyon]

I mean yeah - the analogy is that the doctor makes the diagnosis and gives it to the patient but the medic must examine the patient to discover what illness they have

[keen rapids]

and make it not count with seeded runs 😆

[slim mural]

what about unlock all previously unlocked?

or maybe copy the unlocked stuff from another profile

is there even anything in particular that needs to be unlocked that makes you stronger? the only thing I can think of are new decks

[keen rapids]

for the full game, much

[pure crater]

I totally agree, though at some point you gotta compromise 😅

Tbh

My best case scenario is getting the Unlock All option AFTER one of your saves unlocked them all

Because, you already did it, so it’s going to be annoying to do it again if u don’t want to

[gilded tulip]

I am late to this discussion but I feel like this might be better if you specifically make it be an option when starting a second save

not a button that you can press on any save

you could frame it as a sort of sandbox mode that way I'd say

[coral hill]

Nah bro who voted C 💀💀💀

[ancient cloak]

I feel like an unlock everything feature would ruin the game honestly, the fun of these games come from unlocking things and seeing how every run is different. I'm imagining if Isaac had that or slay the spire had that, even a game like Spelunky if you had every level unlocked or God mode to explore it freely before doing the quests to unlock those. I don't think that's the right approach to a game like this, even if it's an optional thing

[deep canyon]

Spelunky would not change at all if it had a unlock all button bruh

Like, you're not gonna survive a minute in the temple if you just started the game out.

The entire fun of Spelunky is about getting better at the game and inching closer to victory every run - the entire game works BECAUSE there's nothing to unlock in it. It's the antithesis to the entire rogue-like unlockable design idea

Spelunky 1 is an example of a game that works BECAUSE everything is already unlocked from the beginning - you can't unlock new items to appear in the shop, permanent upgrades or anything of the sort. That means that the only reason why the player wins is because they became better at the game.

The entire appeal of Spelunky is that at the end the player will look back to when they started and know the game didn't change - they didn't unlock anything new, they didn't get any permanent power ups and didn't got any different starting equipment. The only thing that changed is that they got better and more skilled at the game.

Games like Rogue Legacy or Nuclear Throne are TERRIBLE at this. There is no satisfaction or payoff to winning them, you just reach the end and tell yourself cool, I won because I got these metaupgrades. I learned nothing and got nothing out of this. It rots the experience to the core.

Having a unlock all button means you give players the choice - do you wanna do the unlock marathon or do you wanna just jump in into the real game and set that as the baselin for you to compare to in the future? Again, it's giving the player choice on how they want to play. If you have two different boxes then what happens in one box won't affect what happens in the other - if you have separate "New game with nothing in it" and "New game with everything unlocked" you can have both playstyles accounted for without compromising too much either.

[lavish flower]

Balatro's not that kind of game though, it's perfectly winnable without any unlocks, proof being the demo we've all been playing way too much of

Balatro's unlock system, if I get it right, is just meant to not overwhelm you with thousands of potential combos when you start playing

You still get hundreds of potential combos at the very start, and if I understand how you're meant to unlock new jokers, you'll unlock a few hundred combos by just playing the game a bunch, and you finally get to unlock weird/busted jokers if you put in some effort by following challenges

It's not about gating critical stuff away, again, if nothing's getting changed in secret, the goal will always just be "Beat the Ante 10 boss" during regular runs

You don't buy permanent upgrades like "hey now all cards are worth double the chips" so there's not really any need to compare it to the metaprogression genre

[ancient cloak]

Yeah exactly

[frank bloom]

So how about comparing it to the classic Slay the Spire, the more recent Monster Train or Wildfrost and anything else in between

None of these have permanent upgrades, just unlocks

And none of these have an unlock all button

Besides, how would the game handle such a button in conjunction with the previously discussed "ascension" mode or its equivalent in Balatro?

[lapis yoke]

Dicey Dungeon is an example of a game that does have an unlock all button.

I would appreciate this feature. I just started playing on my laptop after logging dozens of hours on my tower, and having to unlock the demo decks was already a touch frustrating. I would love to be able to get Balatro on multiple systems but not need to go through the grind each time.