Gold seals

[elder lynx]

🧵

[polar ore]

i think gold seal has a lot of potential that's weighed down by current implementation

it takes a spectral slot and it hits a random card

[neon oxide]

I like gold seals, and the idea of seals in general - the problem with them currently is there is 0 way to control where they land, so they end up being useless in 99% of cases

[obsidian frigate]

like evab said, its got some potential, its just the current use is underwhelming

[polar ore]

occasionally worse than useless.

[neon oxide]

usually worse than useless, correct!

unless it lands on something you very specifically want, its basically a debuff

[obsidian frigate]

yeah

[somber scarab]

i would not mind the removal

[elder lynx]

How good is it even though - if it lands on something good

It feels like it's barely even a positive

[neon oxide]

Its hard for us to judge because we have been unable to play with it like that, but it enables much smaller decks without getting KO'd

[obsidian frigate]

I suppose most that can be done is speculation

atm

[somber scarab]

yeah but you can only get 1 card as a gold seal

[neon oxide]

many ways exist to dupe cards once you get a single gold seal

[obsidian frigate]

but, what I kind of see is

[somber scarab]

ah yeah that's true

ok we have 1 use for gold seal

[obsidian frigate]

it can be best for flouses, 4/5oaks

[elder lynx]

Gold seal doesn't really play very differently in the full game from what I've seen

[neon oxide]

I think the emergent gameplay of gold seal would be better if we had any agency over it

[obsidian frigate]

yeah, thats kind of the main problem with trying to give a clear verdict on gold seal

[neon oxide]

right now it's just avoided like the plague since its actively negative when applied to something random (always)

[barren ledge]

one thought is making the gold seal a consumable granted from a spectral pack and not random
or, to change what the seal does to a wild rank (as opposed to wild suit) but that would change it to an enhancement instead of a separate thing

[somber scarab]

i don't think making gold seal going into arcanas is a good idea, that's more item bloat

maybe it would be good to swap it with something else

[barren ledge]

it already is in spectrals, thats how you get them usually (for me)

[somber scarab]

oh wait

i thought you meant arcanas

i read it wrong

[elder lynx]

I asked this question because gold seals being stackable also makes them a separate system for the player to know about, and it just doesn't feel like that extra complexity burden is worth the actual ability

[somber scarab]

yeah i like that idea

[elder lynx]

I imagine if it were just a normal enhancement it would be garbage?

[neon oxide]

yeah i cant imagine itd be used much as an enhancement

for what its worth though - I think a lot of new players get confused by the mutually exclusive nature of enhancements

[polar ore]

just to throw an idea out there, what if when you apply any enhancement or edition to a card, there was a small chance to give the player a choice to also add a gold seal?

[neon oxide]

basically every new player tries to put bonus on a mult card, or mult on a stone card

[spiral axle]

I found them really useful in this run #🕹・game-discussion message
It's amazing when they pop off, but they're they trickiest to get running. Would a Tarot that is just "add gold seal to a card" be too strong?

[neon oxide]

and then just go "awh :/" when it doesnt work lol

[somber scarab]

i see that there are a lot of jokers that build around certain numbers in full release, like 8 and 6 and 7, but i don't remember them. if golden seal was in the arcanas packs it would be a really good synergy with them

[weary pulsar]

I don't think I've ever used gold seals. they are hard to get but only have a small upside

[somber scarab]

i don't think they would be really strong if they were tarot

[lone dome]

No it would be great-ish if you could add a seal to a specific card like 8s in 8 ball or aces in scholar etc right now it’s just not very usable because unlike random jokers and such you can’t get rid of the card

[barren ledge]

the upside of them is hurt by the limited number of hands per round (which is an important balancing point and cant really be changed)

[somber scarab]

maybe you could swap gold seal and glass, and make it so glass doesn't break?

questionable idea i know

[elder lynx]

How's this then:

• Gold Seal roll into an existing Tarot (one tarot would need to go)
• this tarot explains that Gold seal stacks with 1 enhancement

[lone dome]

Or like editions seals are separate

[somber scarab]

i would gladly say goodbye to lucky cards

[lone dome]

Stacking tends to confuse

Lucky does feel underpowered and inconsistent

[neon oxide]

i think its more confusing that enhancements generally dont stack than being confused by gold seal stacking

[barren ledge]

is there design space for more types of seals?

[spiral axle]

Someone else suggested having other seals like "this card always drawn first" and things. So I think there's an interesting design space for enhancements and seals existing in tandem

[lone dome]

You might be right

[elder lynx]

Oh sorry, meant to say that all Tarots for enhancements say Enhancements cannot stack

[neon oxide]

that would definitely help

[lone dome]

Oh that would be nice

[somber scarab]

the magician turning into gold seal would be pretty fitting ngl

[lone dome]

Or maybe just force it in the tutorial and save the space

[neon oxide]

if you made all enhancement tarots say "enhancements cannot stack" you could put gold seal in its own category (seals) and say "stacks with enhancements" on the tarot for gold seal

[solar cave]

This, I feel like if there were more than one type of seal they would feel more like their own thing apart from Enhancements

[elder lynx]

Having seals exist in the game is still confusing, even if people are aware enhancements can't stack

[somber scarab]

more seals would be great but i don't know how you would find them

[elder lynx]

So I still don't know if it's worth it. It feels so minor as a mechanic

[barren ledge]

this is a fair concern

[somber scarab]

the spectral cards are full i imagine

[spiral axle]

What if they were changed to stamps instead of seals? Does the language used imply an alternate addition?

[elder lynx]

I think it's having 2 systems that "enhance" a card

[barren ledge]

well, 3, including editions

[neon oxide]

Yeah ive seen so many people get confused over edition vs enhancement and nearly none get confused about gold seals lol

[solar cave]

Well theres also editions on playing cards too, yeh, I think in a deckbuilding game having some depth there can be nice

[neon oxide]

thats probably just because gold seal is extremely underused atm, due to its random application

[elder lynx]

For example - could this just work as a joker? All scoring cards return to hand?

[lone dome]

I think after you understand them it’s fine but you have to find way to initially communicate that to the players

[solar cave]

That would be reeeally boring on a full hand basis though, its just, freebies if it has no downside

[polar ore]

all scoring cards would get stale, playing the same exact hand multiple times during a blind

all scoring cards with enhancements return to hand might feel rewarding though, as you'd need to work towards that

and during the journey there only some of them return

[lone dome]

I think all enhanced card returns to hand is fun

[solar cave]

People have brought it up but I think seals being a consumable you apply to a chosen card would be more flexible n interesting, would also feel more intuitive that youre adding something 'on top' of what the card has ((vs tarot cards which Convert))

[barren ledge]

"Sealed Joker" looking like exodia chained up, haha

[polar ore]

the left jangle of the forbidden one

[spiral axle]

A "my first deck" that comes with an assortment of different cards with various combinations of cards already assigned to them, so the players can see the different possible combinations of boons, with a set seed, these can arrive 'as scheduled ' to be explained to the player

[lone dome]

It would be cool if you got a special bonus after getting highcard, pair,3oak,4oak,5oak jokers at the same time

[elder lynx]

Yeah tutorialization is a big part of any change here too

[barren ledge]

to do list kinda does this misread, meant a bonus for having all of those type of jokers

[glass talon]

do gold seals currently stack with editions?

[barren ledge]

OH wait, misread

[lone dome]

No it doesn’t?

[neon oxide]

yea

[glass talon]

do they stack with enhancements too?

[neon oxide]

yea

its in its own separate category rn

[spiral axle]

Yeah you can have all 3 at once

[elder lynx]

This is literally the problem

[lone dome]

They are 3 separate things

[neon oxide]

You have the exact same problem with editions vs enhancements though, this isnt a gold seal exclusive problem imo

[elder lynx]

Its confusing because Jokers only get 1 extra thing as well

[neon oxide]

Soooooooooo many people get confused on editions vs enhancements

[spiral axle]

Hover over a card, tool tips;
Chips 7
Enhancement: none
Edition: None
Seal: gold

[neon oxide]

👀

[elder lynx]

This would solve the problem for sure

[neon oxide]

i love that solution

[polar ore]

that could work if the extension only shows up when it has any addition on it

[elder lynx]

But would it be too much?

[spiral axle]

Show chip, if hover longer, expand to show all. Like lbal item expansions

[elder lynx]

Im fine making like 4 seal types and having them all be spectrals that let you target a card too

[neon oxide]

that would be sick

[glass talon]

they can obviously be very strong then
i like seals even if most of the time they aren't useful because editions and seals to cards are always applied randomly rn
but it seems the conversation now is about how to communicate the mechanics succinctly lol

[neon oxide]

ok this might be asking for too much, but if you add more seals, would it be possible to make them all stack with eachother 👀

[elder lynx]

No

Dont

Pls

[neon oxide]

like on tarot cards for enhancements, it would say "enhancements dont stack" but on the spectral cards for seals it says "seals CAN stack"

because seals only take up like 1/4th or 1/6th of the card

like each seal could just have one "quadrant" of the card

[lone dome]

I mean I’m order to get them you have to sacrifice a lot most run’s people don’t even get an edition and seals seems similar

[glass talon]

i'll take my gold rainbow sparkle seal ace please

[lone dome]

Coding nightmare ensues :then balancing problems

[neon oxide]

i just like the idea of seals stacking because visually & conceptually, there is no reason for them to be mutually exclusive - just seal them in different areas lol

[elder lynx]

Minimum viable product here

Hol up

[wind drum]

looking back through the thread, i like this idea a lot

[lone dome]

I think the visual hover over expanding into a list works

[elder lynx]

So how would the disclaimer display? As soon as your card has 1 of (enhancement, seal, edition), where does it show the info?

[lone dome]

Then you could enhance a card and have jumbo tell you to hover over

[elder lynx]

As a tooltip, as the little coloured badge, in the main description

[glass talon]

this idea works better as a joker that introduces that chance imo

[neon oxide]

which info?

[elder lynx]

#1161021384579874816 message

[neon oxide]

on playing card hover

[spiral axle]

To the left, chips, then under it, like you changed for something recently and we were debating central aligned or right aligned

[neon oxide]

like as if it were a joker description is what I imagined

[wind drum]

alternatively, gold seal instead making other enhancements more effective?
gold seal glass card doesn't break, gold seal wild card counts as any value as well, gold seal lucky card procs more often, gold seal mult and bonus just do more mult and bonus?

[lone dome]

I think the suit chips mult on quick hover then it expands to the right and lists special qualities of the card to the right

I think all the jokers essentially do that but that’s up to thunk

Or you could have a rainbow seal that does that

[neon oxide]

I just imagined it like this

[spiral axle]

#🎙・server-chat message

I'm imagining something like this

[lone dome]

I think English reading conventions of expending off to the right make more sense but that’s just me

[spiral axle]

Seal(s)?

[neon oxide]

iirc the reason it doesnt go to the right is to avoid it clipping off of the right edge of the screen (would require extra work to avoid)

[neon oxide]

Yes, if I can successfully bully localthunk into making seals stackable

[polar ore]

the right side of the screen is buffered by the space where the deck is

[elder lynx]

Hmm thinking about it more - displaying that info might make it even more confusing

For a new player that might never see a seal

[spiral axle]

Well seal(s) as language let's the player know more than one of these can be applied, where enhancement and edition are singular

[elder lynx]

🦭

[neon oxide]

Yea ofc, I agree with the idea

[lone dome]

You could have jumbo say that the info will expand the first time you come across it

[elder lynx]

There's only 1 seal tho

[neon oxide]

for now

[lone dome]

Or have a trigger that pops up on first encounter /experience

[glass talon]

is it possible to have the tool tip pop up only when hovering over the highlighted text?

[elder lynx]

Not possible

[glass talon]

besides the base descriptor for the card of course

[neon oxide]

cant hover a hover

[glass talon]

not in this engine it seems

[spiral axle]

Base tutorial/deck omits and ability to add seals at all, then once you get a win, there's a 'pro' tutorial that expands on all the additional mechanics that are now unlocked since you've got the basics

[elder lynx]

It's technically possible - the design of the UI is such that only in game entities can be hovered

[neon oxide]

i wouldnt want to hover a hover anyway

it always sucks

[elder lynx]

It's intentional

[neon oxide]

its like tightrope UI

yea i figured

[polar ore]

luck be a landlord moment

[glass talon]

i've never minded the challenge of bridging lol
but i understand your opinion

[elder lynx]

I love the UI hover system currently in game, it needs some more context for some items but in general I like it

Not going to change that system

[glass talon]

what's the current best idea for displaying the info?

[elder lynx]

Honestly getting back to the root of the problem - this isn't necessarily a UI issue

Soooo I'm still considering removing seals entirely

Because I'm not convinced they're very important to the game

[polar ore]

perhaps not

[elder lynx]

A lot of the things people have described seem fringe

Which might not be the case if they were more common, to be fair

[glass talon]

they're not important right now with this build since duplicating cards is a major strategy for most decks and duplication isn't hard to achieve currently

[spiral axle]

I liked the idea of removing seals, but adding a joker "Enhanced cards are returned to your hand when scored"

[plucky meadow]

I feel like gold seals commit one of the biggest sins (at least in the demo rn) a mechanic can have in a rogue-lite: You can't make a run around it

[glass talon]

but i like seals a lot

i try to make my gold seals work when i can

[spiral axle]

You can, just not easily, which is true of many things

[plucky meadow]

It just makes you slightly more consistent - if you're going for a five-of-a-kind run you can add a seal (if you're lucky) to that number and have a bit more consistency in your five-of-a-kind run

I don't believe in the gold seal prismatic upgraded high card run, tbfh. I don't think that's a run you can really do without seed manipulation

And even then you're not guaranteed to draw the gold seal

[spiral axle]

Ah, so just gold seals alone won't make a run

[neon oxide]

i would be sad to see gold seals go when their greatest sin is being only obtained randomly and stacking with other upgrades (which I find really cool) 😢

[glass talon]

the ability of the golden seal is just slightly redundant currently
since the best way to exercise it is to duplicate the card, which means you're getting a copy of that rank anyway
gold seal just allows you to not burn your discards looking for your other copies, which can be really strong
but since seals are randomly applied and the best synergy is with also randomly applied editions, they don't see much use or efficiency

[plucky meadow]

Compare it to stone cards. You can make a high card + stone cards run, or a three-in-a-row + stone cards run. Gold seals just make you slightly more consistent when going for flushes, five-of-a-kind or similar "have a lot of this rank/suit" builds

[lone dome]

Yeah oujia can make a run, immolate is quite good, aura is really helpful, etc seals just are to rare and random to build around

[elder lynx]

I would be removing them more for not adding much flavor but adding complexity

Is gold seal fun?

[glass talon]

the problem is the randomness imo
seal isn't good enough on it's own to warrant random application

i love gold seal

[lone dome]

I mean currently no

[spiral axle]

I think if a tarot added gold seal, id use it all the time

[neon oxide]

I think gold seal can be fun but its basically an edge case right now with how little control we have

yeah

[spiral axle]

Biggest barrier is getting it in the first place

[plucky meadow]

Gold Seals, even detached from how you get them, just aren't very interesting. You only really get them be interesting and run-building when you get like, 3-4 gold seals on the same rank and can play four-in-a-row in all your hands for the round

[glass talon]

if gold seal could be targeted it would have a much more popular reception with people

[lone dome]

Unless you know which card you going to apply to it’s kinda of a let down because unlike aura enhancement it doesn’t give enough of a benefit to build around

[plucky meadow]

You need a high mass of gold seals for them to be interesting and worth it, imo. I feel like it's definitely very axxable and cuttable.

[elder lynx]

I guess I'm asking more even if you get a gold seal on the card you want - how important is that?

When is replaying the same card fun/valuable?

[plucky meadow]

You could have a rare joker that just says "all cards you play return to your hand" and that's infinitely more interesting than Gold Seals - on top of preventing mechanical bloat

[neon oxide]

When that card has a rare edition or a valuable enhancement

[spiral axle]

The same times as when I manage to have 10 A of Spaces etx

[glass talon]

it isn't as important for run success since you'll want to duplicate the seal and therefore duplicating the rank/ability anyway
but it is pretty fun if you manage to nab a sealed polychrome and then can keep adding that as last card to your hand with splash and/or building your deck around hands that work with said polychrome rank/suit

[plucky meadow]

As the game stands right now it does not support a "Buff one card endlessly" playstyle

[neon oxide]

and yet a buff one card endlessly playstyle is distinct and interesting, gold seal is just the only thing that plays into it atm

[spiral axle]

I just want gold seal, hiker, dusk, high card runs etc

[plucky meadow]

The vast, VAST majority of the runs will not have "that one card in my deck I wanna keep adding back". Even if Talisman let you choose which card in your entire deck you would add it to, in most cases the answer is "A +20 [card you're going 5-in-a-row for]"

[elder lynx]

Okay I see how it has emergent utility

[glass talon]

this is only the case for a run that has no build going for it currently
otherwise you'll be shooting to seal any card that is enhanced/editioned

[plucky meadow]

It has emergency utility with one of the worst jokers in the game, Hiker. The problem is that the game, as a whole, is not built atop the idea of buffing one card to the moon and back so a mechanic that pays that off just doesn't work

[neon oxide]

also works with stone joker

[plucky meadow]

5-of-a-kind is by far one of the easiest and best runs to get going

[barren ledge]

I'm going to stay in the more seals to flesh out the mechanic, but would have to workshop what design space they could fill that isn't redundant with the enhancements and editions. I would say anything that is hand/draw manipulation is where a seal wants to be, as opposed to score

[elder lynx]

Wee, Gold cards, golden ticket, lucky

[neon oxide]

I was about to mention golden ticket

[spiral axle]

Ride the bus! 🚌

[glass talon]

that is true but doesn't go against what either of us are saying

[polar ore]

I'd like to add it might be counter to poker's core design, which is that the rarer, patterned things are cool and should be made special. This means that trying to include a gold seal card in a poker hand lessens the likelyhood of it being useful in another hand because you've just used some of the resources you need to make a good hand with the sealed card. Even something like a single Pair gets harder to include the gold seal in because you've just lost one of the cards you've paired it with, and unless you've added another card of its rank, doing 2 Three-of-a-Kinds with the gold seal is just not possible.

[lone dome]

Ideally you play a five card hand and right now only one of those five gets the utility to play again and the only reason why that would be good is if it has one of the other special abilities

[plucky meadow]

Gold seals is a good idea but it doesn't fit in the rest of the framework of the game. Kill your darlings; this mechanic just doesn't gel with the gameplay loop. The entire shell of the game is about the joker system and the planets leveling your hand. Your numerical payoff has very little to do with what the cards in your hand actually are (outside of glass and polychrome card builds); Gold Seal doesn't make sense in this context

[glass talon]

seal can be very fun if your deck has any lean other than base
esp if you have already managed to nab an editioned or enhanced card, or a joker that synergizes well with any particular card

[elder lynx]

• retrigger this card
• this card is drawn to hand first
• balance chips/mult when this card scores

[polar ore]

balance chips and mult meaning you take an equal amount away from the higher one as you add to the lower one to make them as equal as possible?

[glass talon]

retrigger this card is pog
mini dusk for any hand

[neon oxide]

Second one could be lead seal

[plucky meadow]

Look at almost any build in the game. You gain chips and mult by your jokers and the planet's leveling of the hand (or the hand's base value), not by the card's numbers or effects. Gold Seal buffs the hardest part of your build to get chips out of

[neon oxide]

anyway I like the design space and I do think gold seal is mechanically interesting, just hard to utilize rn

[glass talon]

gold seal can be reworked imo in some way with how it exists

but the potential of seals in general is too cool to scrap

[neon oxide]

especially because they are canonically stackable

[lone dome]

It doesn’t fix it entirely but allowing you to choose the card would fix half the issues with it right now imo

[plucky meadow]

Making cool concepts is not hard at all. The problem is making sure they work nicely with the rest of the whole. Getting attached to problematic mechanics because they have potential or are cool is a pitfall

[lone dome]

As a cherry on top of a build instead of something you build around

[elder lynx]

Okay I think I'm leaning towards keeping seals, making them targetable with spectral cards. Nothing locked in at all though.

Honestly, just saying "Seals stack with card enhancements" on whichever Spectral adds the seal is likely enough to reduce confusion

[lone dome]

You would have to change the effect entirely in order to justify the rarity currently

[glass talon]

gold seal is not problematic
your arguments aren't strong enough to claim gold seal, or the concepts of seals in general, as unproductive enough to remove imo

[neon oxide]

GOLD SEAL ENJOYERS REJOICE

[plucky meadow]

The problem is feature creep and ruling mountains

[glass talon]

feature creep is very likely not an issue with the approach thunk is taking

[elder lynx]

This is an important point. The solution to a lot of these problems is rarely to add more stuff

[plucky meadow]

We have:
-> Tarot card upgrades
-> Seals
-> Rarities
-> Hiker's chip up
And it's not intuitive how they interact with one another

[elder lynx]

I wanted this to be the main part of conversation, because we all know how these systems work but new players do not

Not 'adding more seals', which I may or may not do

[neon oxide]

yeah I think just changing the spectral card as listed would basically fix things (and leave the door open for more seals, later)

[plucky meadow]

If you stone card a card with a seal, does it keep the seal?
If tarot upgrades interfere with other tarot upgrades does that mean that gold seal (a spectral upgrade) interfere with increasing the card's edition (another spectral upgrade)?
Etc

These questions are not clear from the player's point of view and cause confusion

[neon oxide]

This is an issue but not specific to gold seal at all, its genuinely more unintuitive that you cant have a bonus stone card or mult stone card

[glass talon]

it depends on whether you view that initial lack of intuition as a major problem or something fun to discover and unravel
i'm half glass full on that concept

[lone dome]

i think the valuable suggestions (biased) are that you can target them and the display of effects/tutorial explanation of the hover over

[polar ore]

i could see discovery being a cool aspect at first, but having it screw you over when you thought you had it figured out, hours into the game, is not fun to me

[plucky meadow]

That's fair, but every mechanic you add into the game the bigger this issue is. Cutting weak and not that interesting mechanics / mechanics with little built around potential will help reduce these problems

[barren ledge]

i was thinking more of :

• when discarded, draw an additional card (can go over your hand size)
• when scored goes to the top of your deck after you refill your hand (potentially more confusing, but spitballing)
• "tacky" seal is stuck to the card its next to in your run info so they are always drawn together (maybe not feasible for a new player to understand)

in essence, don't touch score directly with seals, but make it about manipulation, which goes along with a gold seal feeling like a "palmed card" that you cheat back into your hand

[neon oxide]

I just disagree that gold seal is weak and uninteresting, once we can choose where it goes there are significant synergies

[polar ore]

"tacky" seal is stuck to the card its next to in your run info so they are always drawn together
muh pink seal

[plucky meadow]

I'm glass half empty - half of this game's marketing is youtubers playing the game and doing cool builds. Seeing youtubers fumble their build or not have their build have the most potential (and the comment section roasting them afterwards) is very bad and unfun for both the audience and the person playing

[glass talon]

not everything should be obvious
and i think most of the game is not obtuse as to strategy

gold seal currently can use a rework, but it's not so dead weight and definitely not subtractive enough to warrant removal
bloat is bad and we can all agree on that, but the core of gold seal is not bloat

[neon oxide]

also gold seals are definitely more interesting than like half of the enhancements lol

[plucky meadow]

If you could pick any card in your deck (not just the ones presented when you open a pack, any card in your deck) to gold seal it'd still be underwhelming and not worth picking up over a Oujia or Sigil

[plucky meadow]

I can see that.

[barren ledge]

what about the second sigil/ouija you see?
so, the gold seal is seen next to the second of the above insane spectrals

[spiral axle]

But if I've already used Sigil, I have a prime target, this won't always be the first thing we do

[glass talon]

i think you are approaching gold seal way too much from a game-start perspective
in the first rounds yeah you'd go for another spectral, but later game talisman definitely has utility

[neon oxide]

also its ok that seals are situational (aka, once you already have a card you want to focus on) many other mechanics are situational

the problem is that right now gold seals are only situationally good in a way that is completely impossible to take advantage of since they apply randomly

[lone dome]

Ouija is not somthing i like taking 100% becuase -1 hand size

[plucky meadow]

The spectral pack in general has a lot of issues, imho. Almost every card in it can be argued to be too good, too bad or a weird underdeveloped mechanic that appears nowhere else and has no synergy

[spiral axle]

The bigger problem is just tutorialisation and clarity of information

[glass talon]

most people here are of the opinion that gold seal should be reworked, not removed

[neon oxide]

fazzie vs the world

[barren ledge]

the magic of the skip button 😛

[glass talon]

yeah i'd say thunk's problem source with gold seal here lies in that rather than the seal mechanic itself

[plucky meadow]

I'm a cutter; I'm a less-is-more designer. If something isn't working and has fundamental problems I cut rather than try to hold on

[lone dome]

i actually skip 1 in 4 packs lol

[plucky meadow]

Regardless of the gold seal, the biggest problem here is the Spectral Pack

[neon oxide]

I agree with you - but I think gold seals can work with very simple changes and it does not have fundamental problems. If you were to cut anything, it would be the lucky enhancement lol

[polar ore]

for the record i am leaning more towards gold seal removal

[glass talon]

gold seal has opened the doorway

[lone dome]

i think i can agree that there are cards that are significantly better than others in spectral

[plucky meadow]

Fair lol

[polar ore]

i think in the short term at least it would be better, and maybe they can be added back later when a firmer grasp of the state of the final game is understood

[glass talon]

we are now balatro design philosophers

[elder lynx]

What's wrong with Spectrals? I thought people loved the design

[neon oxide]

I do love spectrals

[elder lynx]

Some balance changes but besides that the core seems fine

[spiral axle]

Agree, largely great

[neon oxide]

[glass talon]

i highly disagree with that take
better to modify it and let people play with it until it either strikes a good place or exhausts utility and then can be removed
have to give it a fair shot first

[lone dome]

i love the design and everything but they are very unbalanced

[plucky meadow]

They're super top-heavy - some of the best cards in the game are there and some of the worse are also there

[neon oxide]

thats a balance problem though not a fundamental issue with it

[polar ore]

incantation

[glass talon]

spectrals are fun
they are imbalanced but they are definitely fun additive to the game not subtractive

[plucky meadow]

The only thing balancing spectral packs rn is that sometimes you get a pack with nothing good in it and pass

[neon oxide]

familiar and incantation 💤

[plucky meadow]

I feel like spectrals should get a prince increase and have all cards be roughly the power level of Ouija

[glass talon]

sleeping on familiar

incantation i almost never take tho yeah lol

[plucky meadow]

Spectrals are fun because they're insane, absurd and lead to a lot of stuff. The lower level ones just don't hit that itch

[elder lynx]

What if incantation added 10 numbered cards?

[spiral axle]

What if spectral packs drew a random number of cards between X and Y so they have more drastic impacts depending on what spectral cards you draw Vs how big a hand you drew?

[barren ledge]

if these didnt add cards to the deck I would pick them more, if they were transforms, or in the case of incantation reduces the total in the deck (I love a small deck) purely subjective though

[lone dome]

familar is fine i think but incanation is defintly kinda bad

[plucky meadow]

Of the same rank? The problem with incantation is that you can't really build with it. What is the upside to taking incantation?

What do you gain from Incantation?

[neon oxide]

incantation should add 5 or more numbered cards in a continuous straight

we need deck modification for straights

[polar ore]

no i don't want random number cards giving me less chips and less consistency

[elder lynx]

Oooooo

[lone dome]

i think a death effect would be neat

[elder lynx]

Incantation adds cards 2 through 10

[lone dome]

like destroy one numbered card and make 2 copies

or somthing

[plucky meadow]

That could be cool, making incantation be straight synergy

[elder lynx]

Straight synergy yeah

[glass talon]

like all cards 2-10? random suits

[lone dome]

that also probably works better

[elder lynx]

Yes random suits

[polar ore]

i'm very much worried adding 9 cards to the deck is super counterproductive to making it stronger

[neon oxide]

for the record I also think familiar should add KQJ, I originally thought it worked that way and thought it was cool straight help

but I just randomly got KQJ from it like 3 times in a row

[elder lynx]

Could do that too

[plucky meadow]

I do think it'd still be bad tho - it's still very big bloat. 2-9s added to the deck and a "Can be any number" card to help facilitate straights would be very nice to facilitate it

[elder lynx]

It also facilitates 5oak

[lone dome]

i think balacing both of those and making talisman targetable would fix the balance issues with spectral

[polar ore]

i think it actually hurts 5oak

[barren ledge]

"destroy 3 random face cards, if you do, add 2-9 to your deck"

[plucky meadow]

Would you add 7 other cards just to get, essentially, 2 copies of whatever 5oak you're building? Assuming you're not building ace or face 5oak

[lone dome]

you dont always have 3 face

[barren ledge]

right, so it doesnt do anything if you dont destroy 3 face cards. MTG templating of a reflexive trigger

[plucky meadow]

If a "can be any number" card would be added to help with straights this would be the perfect place to put it as there's a clear downside to taking it outside of straight builds

[glass talon]

it provides the option of 5oak to begin with and only strengthens the odds of getting a previous 5+ rank in most decks that aren't already whittled to all one rank

[neon oxide]

to adapt that to balatro you would just grey out the use button if you dont have 3 face cards in hand

[elder lynx]

I feel like I can imagine taking Incantation if it's 2-10 random suits

[neon oxide]

making spectrals the place for strong straight deck modifications is also a cool design direction

[lone dome]

you would have to use it to see if it works but it feels better than current build

[polar ore]

5oak wants extra copies and a thinner deck to find it more consistently. a really small chance of finding one of 9 hands in a deck that's now much larger, with exponentially more possible hands, does not help either of those.

[glass talon]

i would if there were more synergies with specific numbered cards
like face cards have scary face, business card, and eventually hit the road jack etc
numbered cards have tarot 8s? wee joker in full build?

[plucky meadow]

I'm not sure if it'll be viable per se but it's definitely a step in the right direction and worth trying

[plucky meadow]

Ride the Bus

Also Odd Todd and Even Steven

Fibonnaci also kinda does it, and Superposition

[spiral axle]

Hack

[polar ore]

i might take this version of incantation if they all had enhancements

[glass talon]

yeah but i'd like some more unique action jokers for numbers, like tarot/hit the road/business card
normal +mult/+chip increase is decent for success but would be more fun to have more fun ability jokers with numbered cards

[polar ore]

but making a deck that much bigger is just saying "inconsistent" to me

[spiral axle]

What about instead of add it's " change these cards to 2 through 10 numerically"?

[polar ore]

i play a lot of sts

[plucky meadow]

I'm not sold on "adding 2-10" cards actually making Straights more consistent, tbfh

[plucky meadow]

Like, I don't think the math works out in a way where making Straights is easier

[neon oxide]

if it doesnt, change it to something that does make straights easier

[polar ore]

it might work out if it was 10-6 or 10-5, since those are the most used cards in straights

you'd have to do the math though

[neon oxide]

the core concept of spectral cards that support straights is what I like

since we desperately need some way to modify the deck in a straight-friendly way

[plucky meadow]

I really feel like, mathematically, the only way you can make straights more consistent is either:
A: Thin your deck so your deck only has 5 different numbers (or as close to this as possible)
B: Have cards with more than one number
And I don't think this buffed incantation does either, tbfh

[spiral axle]

What if a spectral card was just '+1 hand size?'

[polar ore]

a little boring but does something

[spiral axle]

Juggler makes straights so much easier to find

[neon oxide]

add 3 random cards, +1 hand size

[plucky meadow]

That would probably be the most boring spectral card in the game but also on the top half of power

I can see it, tbfh.

It's boring but it really gets the job done

[spiral axle]

Maybe something like wrath where the cash is wiped out for the benefit

[lone dome]

the only reason i dont always take juggaler is the joker slot the cost for it is alway worth

[barren ledge]

sorry, i'm just curious, is the f standing for "fairly" or "f***ing"

[spiral axle]

"Strip these cards of any enhancements, +1 hand size"

[plucky meadow]

Nyah. I think the price you paid to buy the spectral pack is enough imo

[neon oxide]

yeah im already not that big of a fan of zeroing out cash

[plucky meadow]

I use it for "fully" - to be fully honest

[neon oxide]

since it basically makes it early game only

[barren ledge]

hadnt seen the f in that before, haha

[glass talon]

continuing this thought, something deeper than hand +mult/+chips synergies for numbers
face cards are more fun than numbers in the demo due to joker synergies so i tend to lean around building my decks around face cards, but even in full build i think unique joker synergies with numbers is a bit lean compared to face cards
perhaps purposefully, because face cards are exclusive by default deck config? but i don't think that rarity disparity needs to be exercised in unique joker utility

[polar ore]

0 out cash for +1 hand size sounds fair to me. but this is demo bias and in longer games econ may be much more prevalent

[elder lynx]

I love this mechanic, but I'm biased

[glass talon]

juggler is a deceptively powerful joker for its rarity

[plucky meadow]

Is straights the hand that most benefits from hand size increases?

[polar ore]

i'd say full house gets more benefit being the stronger hand

[plucky meadow]

It makes the game more relatable

[barren ledge]

yes, because it makes your discards more accessible. dont have to dump parts of your straight as much

[glass talon]

i like cash zeroing since it throws a bone to the poor

[elder lynx]

It makes me really think when I see that card and I have money

[neon oxide]

i think its "interesting" but it also makes me very averse to the card once I have any economic base going, THAT SAID its a good "poor get richer" instead of rich get richer

[plucky meadow]

Cash Zeroing kills your economy in most runs - which kills one of the most fun part of the game, doing decisions in the shop for what your run will shape like

[neon oxide]

i guess its purpose is for bad runs to get better

instead of good runs getting better

[glass talon]

wraith is definitely more of an early build spectral

[elder lynx]

It's very devil deal pilled

A finger curls on the monkeys paw

[polar ore]

here's a weird idea: what if all your cash was stored inside the rare joker's sell value, or a percentage of it

[neon oxide]

nah i think wraith is good

[plucky meadow]

I can see it as "bad gets better", but only if the rare cards are specifically tailored to be good when added off Wrath, regardless of build

[glass talon]

most runs that don't manage econ will drown unless they rolled into real strong stuff early

[neon oxide]

i just dont want to reuse the money zero-ing on other spectrals

[lone dome]

i mean with temprance and such builing back up is easdy enough even when you get intrest up to 50$ or you dont have econ in the first place in which case it dont matter

[spiral axle]

Strip cards of enhancements, +1 hand size?

[lone dome]

its a short term sack for long term benefit

[elder lynx]

Love that too

[neon oxide]

yea thats pretty sick

[elder lynx]

Or -1 hand per round?

[lone dome]

no

thats never worth\

[neon oxide]

-1 hand per round just makes the two attributes at odds

[elder lynx]

Not necessarily for +1 hand size

[plucky meadow]

That's worse than -1 discard.

[lone dome]

you woould have to give me +2 hand size min

[elder lynx]

I mean for a hypothetical strong spectral

[polar ore]

i don't think that would be much of an interesting decision - most card enhancements you choose to put you'd want to keep, so either you have to pass because an important part of your strategy is there, or you get lucky and barely have to sacrifice anything if at all

[neon oxide]

yeah thats good for a strong spectral

[elder lynx]

Instead of $0

[plucky meadow]

In that case probably, depending on what the spectral actually is

[neon oxide]

I think basically everything is on the table for a strong enough spectral lol, they are game changing

[lone dome]

oh sure if black hole is insane thats a good counter balance

[plucky meadow]

I can see that yeah, altho remember -1 hand per round also hurts your economy

[polar ore]

extra hand size would be defeated by a -1 hand/discard

[neon oxide]

would you take -1 hand per round +$50

[plucky meadow]

If you win a round with 2 hands remaining you get 2 gold

If you took the spectral that removes a hand, you get 1 gold in this scenario.

Same amount of hands played but different money payouts

[polar ore]

• edge cases with interest

sometimes you lose 2

[lone dome]

i cuold take it round one or two but after that never\

[plucky meadow]

Ngh... Depends on how confident I am in my build to get by with -1 hand. If it's a kne hand kill build then yes

[elder lynx]

This is amazing

[polar ore]

oh no

[elder lynx]

If it's a hard decision it's a great spectral

[plucky meadow]

I do like the idea of this tho, as a in-game choice

[elder lynx]

With a benefit you really want

[polar ore]

tbh i'd almost always take it

[neon oxide]

designing a good spectral is like playing split the room on jackbox

[plucky meadow]

That'd be a banger spectral

[polar ore]

unless it's from a skip pack

[plucky meadow]

If the answer is "It's run dependant and also how sane you are at that moment" it's a good choice hah

[spiral axle]

Add you Hands, Discards, joker slots and Hand Size, then distribute the total number randomly between the 4 pools

[neon oxide]

oh god

[plucky meadow]

OH LORD

[lone dome]

i would take it sometimes

[polar ore]

if there are more spectrals to be made, im sure you could brute-force idea possibilities by just making a list of really powerful effects and punishing downsides and looking at the possible pairs

[elder lynx]

STOP you're cooking too hard

[neon oxide]

mfw I have 10 discards but 1 joker slot and 1 hand

[plucky meadow]

Better get that flush house!

[lone dome]

i does feel like eqaulity issac

[neon oxide]

I NEED 900K CHIPS

[elder lynx]

FYI, there will 100% be more spectrals. They're too fun and I made that set to expand since Major arcana was all taken

[plucky meadow]

But also, consider: 10 joker slots, 1 hand

[polar ore]

i have 8 discards, 9 joker slots, and 1 hand size

help

[solar cave]

So excited, theyre so fun that I buy them even when its suboptimal

[neon oxide]

yeah spectrals are always fun especially when they are of dubious assistance

[lone dome]

i missed the random part of this lol

[polar ore]

the more spectrals there are, the more likely i will be to take them outside the early game

[neon oxide]

half the time when I take ouija I die on the next blind because i dig way too hard for the 5oak but i had fun doing it

[polar ore]

im very afraid of ruining builds mid-run with the level of chaos spectrals have

[plucky meadow]

The more spectral there are the more fun a "activate a random spectral card" effect is :D

[polar ore]

oh god

[neon oxide]

[plucky meadow]

You can skip them if none fit your build

[polar ore]

very few do; i often just don't buy them at that point

[spiral axle]

+1 Joker Slot, remove the skip button.

[polar ore]

waste of money most of the time

[plucky meadow]

Funny Joker (rare)
When you select Blind, activate a random spectral card effect on your hand

[neon oxide]

+1 Joker Slot, destroy 1 random joker

[lone dome]

yessss

[plucky meadow]

Me looking at the negative ice cream in my hand:

[elder lynx]

Negative was always intended as a way to make people try and build around a card they don't normally use - not a way to get people more Jokers even if that is what you really crave with it

[polar ore]

i'd be more likely to take a negative if it was cheaper

[plucky meadow]

If that's the case then negative jokers should appear more frequently and be less expensive - I've skipped most negative jokers in the shop since they're too expensive, tbfh

I've also not seen many of them, either, despite playing a lot

[polar ore]

also doesn't ectoplasm play into "best build with more jokers" rather than playing with and around a new one thanks to its downside?

[plucky meadow]

What does ectoplasm do? I forgot'

[elder lynx]

It does, which I don't love

[polar ore]

-1 hand size for random negative

[plucky meadow]

Oh that one

[polar ore]

it could just be a powered up version of judgment and give a completely new joker, without the downside

[plucky meadow]

Honestly, a "Next shop all jokers are negative" spectral card would be fun but really broken lol (and design for that "try new jokers" idea)

[polar ore]

i think that would incentivize rolling for the best joker you can possibly get

[plucky meadow]

Hmm, it could work if the downside is enough

[plucky meadow]

Or take all the jokers you see. It's a real risk x reward, do you take this negative Hiker or reroll in search of something better?

[polar ore]

OH

[spiral axle]

I think a lot of the really wacky Spectrals could simply be locked behind medium sized unlock requirements so you need a certain amount of experience before things get TOO wacky

[polar ore]

my mind added "only works on the first one you buy"

[plucky meadow]

Or lock spectral packs as a whole behind something, and make them all wacky, like how Luck Be A Landlord does it

[neon oxide]

is also plays into one of the best parts of isaacs meta progression where very controlled pools (devil & angel deals) can be helped by specifically setting out to accomplish certain difficult goals

[elder lynx]

omg

Spectral packs only show up when you skip a blind

[plucky meadow]

YESSSS YES YES YESSSS

[neon oxide]

guaranteed on blind skip?

[elder lynx]

I can't believe I didn't think of that

Maybe guaranteed on double skip

[lone dome]

that would be intresting

[elder lynx]

Low chance by default, medium chance with 1 skip, guaranteed on double skip

[neon oxide]

having control over when you get spectrals would be awesome

gotta love some good risk reward

[polar ore]

if you added some dark magic/energy effects behind the pack, i think that'd draw people's attention to the fact that it appeared from a skip

[plucky meadow]

Honestly I could see cutting the whole "each blind has a different reward for skipping" system and have them all give spectral packs but I'm a radical cutter and minimalist so ignore me on this lol

[neon oxide]

genuinely agree lol

tags dont really inspire me

[elder lynx]

Nobody likes skips so yeah maybe

[plucky meadow]

Just in general having a "oooo look the COOL pack arrived at the shop!" would be definitely appreciated yeah

[neon oxide]

integrating spectral as a core risk reward management system would really add a lot honestly

[plucky meadow]

The only tag worth going for rn is spectral packs and locking one mechanic to the other makes both more interesting I feel

[polar ore]

yo dawg i heard you like risk/reward, so i added risk/reward to your risk/reward

fullskip runs are about to get really spicy lmao

[neon oxide]

god the more I think about it the more I love spectrals as the core skip mechanic LMAO

[elder lynx]

Good gold seal chat

[neon oxide]

[polar ore]

huh?

what's a gold seal

👀

this is a spectral chat

[neon oxide]

did anyone take minutes? a lot happened and I think we need a scribe

[plucky meadow]

It was a great game design discussion in general tho! It went everywhere and shifted to spectral packs as a whole but dang it was awesome

[polar ore]

this conversation has taken all our minutes

[spiral axle]

I do take the +15 gold tag a lot

[plucky meadow]

What if Talisman made all the cards get Gold Seal rather than just 1 ( but only halfway)

[polar ore]

oh god

[elder lynx]

I'd need to introduce a stat to replace tags, like spookiness

[polar ore]

how sus are you

[elder lynx]

So that skips increase that stay for the next shop

[neon oxide]

Curse is a common word for this kind of mechanic

[elder lynx]

+1 curse

[plucky meadow]

We need to dig into a book of gambling superstitions and find something

[elder lynx]

With a tooltip that said curse increases likelihood for next shop to contain spectral pack

[neon oxide]

[plucky meadow]

Curse sounds negative tho, and it's a good mechanic

[elder lynx]

Like the monkeys paw

[plucky meadow]

Manifestation could work - the more you skip the more you manifest the pack

[neon oxide]

i love this because it
A) Removes the issue of tags sucking and being annoying to balance
B) Makes skipping actually enticing
C) Adds a consistent way to get spectral packs, at great cost

[polar ore]

before you make this official - consider making that chance permanent until it pays out. people already hate the 1/3 etc. chance for something to happen on skip

[neon oxide]

double skipping makes it guaranteed

[polar ore]

then there's no point to skipping just one

[neon oxide]

curse should also increment until a spectral pack shows up

[elder lynx]

If I did this then a single skip would be just as good as a double skip

[plucky meadow]

I feel like it could be if you skip once you get half a pack then when you skip the second time you get the pack, and it doesn't need to be in a row

[spiral axle]

Tilt

[plucky meadow]

There's an argument for double skipping giving you two spectral packs

[polar ore]

well, whatever the solution is, just don't make it a one-time chance

[spiral axle]

Or discounted

[plucky meadow]

So a straight 1 skip per pack conversion

[elder lynx]

Why?

[plucky meadow]

Making it a flat chance is just not fun, interesting or good design

[polar ore]

no one is taking the chance at rare joker, special edition joker, etc. from skips

i thought this was apparent

[elder lynx]

0/50/100 for skip chances per ante? (0/1/2 skips)

[polar ore]

spectral packs will be no different. no one wants to skip an entire round of money and shop just to get absolutely nothing

[plucky meadow]

Having a % chance that is entirely out of your control is terrible and punishes players from trying something out

[barren ledge]

a chance to do nothing is worse than a chance to do something unhelpful (i.e. random stuff from the spectrals)

[elder lynx]

If it was 0/50/100, would you ever skip?

[neon oxide]

I would double skip, but not single skip

[barren ledge]

If that skip power held until i saw a spectral, i would

[neon oxide]

^

[polar ore]

what if single skip was normal spectral pack but double skip was mega?

[elder lynx]

This wouldn't work

[plucky meadow]

Never happily single skip. Sometimes I'd do it but not happily or having much fun. It's the kind of thing where the payoff is so high you gotta do it but also you get so punished it feels terribly

[elder lynx]

I know you don't like that system but this isn't a solution

There would be other solutions

[plucky meadow]

Having the meta be "flip this coin for a massive reward or a survivable kick in the nuts" is really not fun

[spiral axle]

Double skipping will mean less money for buying those packs too

[polar ore]

maybe we need a discussion on skipping

this feels like it's about to go real deep

[plucky meadow]

I feel like skipping once = one spectral pack on the shop replacing the tarot card, skipping twice = two spectral packs on the shop replacing tarot and planet works

[elder lynx]

1 skip = base/jumbo spectral pack, 2 skip = mega spectral

[polar ore]

imagine the spectral activated when you selected a blind, on your first hand

[neon oxide]

i like this, not sure how often id double skip but thats maybe ok

[plucky meadow]

I don't think I'd ever skip twice but that is balanced and interesting imo

[barren ledge]

maybe instead of flat %s, we keep/rework tags, and just adjust seeing spectrals by a percentage per skip in an entire run. but that increased chance wouldnt be a reason to skip by itself

[lone dome]

the problem right now with the one in 3 for rare joker and then you only want half of the rare jokers effectively makes it is like a one in 6 or 9

i just played a run looking for dna or blue print and ven when i got the chance i got smeared

[plucky meadow]

Honestly, I'd say simple is best - Skip and immediately get a spectral pack. I don't think we should overcomplicate by making a separate effect if you skip twice, just make them open two spectral packs

[lone dome]

even tho i had already skipped over smeared twice

[barren ledge]

yeah, screw what I said I like this, simple

[neon oxide]

guaranteed spectral for skip might be overtuned and its hard to go backwards from that

[elder lynx]

Having the reward after you need to survive a round (in the shop) is more interesting to me

[plucky meadow]

I'm a huge minimalism/simple design fan; we don't need a overcomplicated system to make players skip twice. If players are willing to skip once for X reward, skipping twice for 2X reward is also on the table I feel

[elder lynx]

Since there is risk

[neon oxide]

yeah

[plucky meadow]

You could make skipping twice makes both the spectral and tarot packs replaced by spectral packs

[polar ore]

i suggested bigger packs for double skip because otherwise it sounds like you can get a ton of spectrals

[plucky meadow]

You still gotta buy them, and you just skipped two blinds worth of money

[barren ledge]

well, the more blinds you skip, the less money you have for spectrals

[polar ore]

wait, who said anything about buying?

[plucky meadow]

The idea rn I feel is you skip and you a spectral appears in your next shop - and that being the only way to find a spectral pack in the shop

[polar ore]

even if it's in the next shop it could be free. that hasn't been discussed yet

[neon oxide]

skip once for 1 spectral in shop, skip twice for 2 spectrals in shop is great

[plucky meadow]

I feel like it being paid is still good design

The drawback from skipping blinds is not getting the money or the shop so having you have to pay for the pack further tightens your economy

It makes it a more interesting choice

[elder lynx]

I want to change all mega packs to select 2 cards too

So 1 mega for 2 skip would be balanced

[neon oxide]

[lone dome]

i would love that

the 8 gold sucks

[plucky meadow]

Still 4 cards opened for Mega spectral?

[elder lynx]

It's 5

[lone dome]

beacuase half i the cards are viable

[elder lynx]

Oh sorry I mean all megas will be 5

[lone dome]

and i would rathe rjust pay 4

[polar ore]

it's 4 currently, but increased to 5 would be wow

[neon oxide]

Would you draw a second set of playing cards for the second card you select?

[barren ledge]

will jumbo be more picks? or just more cards to pick one from for some reason im thinking jumbo is greater than mega

[elder lynx]

No

[neon oxide]

Hmmmmmm interesting

[plucky meadow]

If it's
-> Skip once, get a spectral pack in your next shop (open 2 pick 1)
-> Skip twice, get a mega spectral pack in your next shop (open 5 pick 2)
-> No other way to get spectral packs
Then yeah I 100% see this

[lone dome]

im just not having fun here

[polar ore]

me on my way to ouija -> sigil for a sweet flush house foundation

[elder lynx]

Thinking base is 3, jumbo will be 5, mega will be 5 pick 2

[neon oxide]

Some of the spectrals will anti-synergize with eachother but others will synergize, so thatll be interesting

[plucky meadow]

I pushed back on the skip twice get a mega because I thought it was old mega pack; with this new mega I'm 100% on board with this

[neon oxide]

I love skipping being a consistent way to get spectrals at a great loss/risk

[plucky meadow]

Now get that ante 1 round 1 with abandoned deck and no money to buy anything

(true story 😭)

[frozen belfry]

On the topic of seals (since I showed up late lmao), I really like seals as a concept, and I agree with these points that were made:

1. You should have more agency on what cards get a seal
2. There should be more seals
3. (Tentatively agree) seals could stack

I think that would fix the problem with gold seal currently

[plucky meadow]

I thoroughly enjoy how we agreed on several reworks for many cards and systems that were tangentially related to gold seals yet got absolutely nowhere about the actual discussion topic

[barren ledge]

for point 3, I'd want them to be mutually exclusive like the other categories

[plucky meadow]

Editions and tarot effects don't stack so I feel like seals (if they become their own category) also shouldn't stack

[frozen belfry]

1 and 2 are defo the main things

I would be fine with no stacking I just think it could be fun

[plucky meadow]

It could but it'd be inconsistent (rules-wise) and make for a rough learning curve

[barren ledge]

the image of a card covered in stamps and stickers is amusing, and maybe that is the "unique" thing of seals, but i think it wouldnt add much

[frozen belfry]

This is real nice :)

Any chance we’ll get to put pack draws into the consumable inventory?

That might be a cool joker effect actually

[glass talon]

strongly think this will make jumbos very annoying to roll into
jumbo should be pick one from six or seven, make it worthwhile to take the pack for the chance of getting your desired tarot

[glass talon]

i agree, pocket joker
selected pack cards have the option to be stored in consumable zone

[glass talon]

final decision was all tarots now apply unchanged gold seal

[frozen belfry]

I do like the spectral pack ideas

With blind skips

[glass talon]

what were they?

[frozen belfry]

Instead of the tag system, you’d get a regular/jumbo spectral pack for skipping 1 blind, or a mega pack for skipping 2

[glass talon]

hmm

i liked the variation in the boons

some of them at least

[frozen belfry]

A wax seal would look pretty cool

[wraith lily]

I agree, i like the tags as an interesting and unique mechanic, personally i dont think they should be removed and having them along side the spectral pack skipping mechanic could incentivize taking them more often

Somewhere there was discussion about potentially making them all a 100% chance for their effect but having lower spawn rates depending on their strength like getting a negative joker which would also make them more fun/rewarding

Could bring the whole blind skipping mechanic some cohesion

[glass talon]

i think some boons should be removed or combined

like +hands, +discards can be helpful but definitely less fun than spectral, money, chance for x, etc

its fine if the options aren't all at the same power level
but ideally they can all be on the same fun level

similar to the face cards/number cards unique joker effect disparity i mentioned before

[wraith lily]

Thats a good idea, instead of +hands or +discards it could be +2 of each, for some reason that just feels better to me

[frozen belfry]

taken from local's messages:

• gold seal doesn't feel good to play
• changing it to an enhancement would also suck
• maybe remove seals as a concept altogether, since theres already 2 other ways to change cards (enhance/edition), make "return to hand after played" a joker
• needs better tutorialisation
• alternatively, add more seals and move them all to spectrals
• tooltips on hover could help with explaining the 3 systems, but could also be too much info for new players
• still considering removing seals entirely
• [poll "is gold seal fun" sitting at 7Y to 4N as of this message, some argue it could be lots of fun with changes, some argue it should be axed]
• gold seal could have emergent utility though
• ideas for others include "retrigger card, card is drawn to hand first, and balance chips/mult when this card scores"
• not for certain, but leaning towards keeping seals and making them targetable with spectrals
• feature creep may be an issue
• spectrals as a concept are good, just unbalanced
• incantation could be changed to gain cardss 2-10/9 of random suits
• losing all your money for a rare joker is cool and good, but local is biased
• "-1 hand per round +$50" is an awesome idea for a spectral
• 100% confirm WILL be more spectrals
• negative was intended for finding new builds, not completing already-strong specific builds, which ectoplasm sadly goes against
• "Spectral packs only show up when you skip a blind" idea
• [^^^ crowd goes wild]
• first idea is to make low chance default, medium chance for 1 skip, guaranteed for 2 skips
• "nobody likes skips so yeah maybe" in response to removing tags completely, with spectrals in its place
• second idea is to add some "curse" stat per skip, each increasing odds of spectral in shop
• third idea is 1 skip for a base/jumbo, 2 for mega, better received than 1st two
• all packs could be changed to 3/5/5, with 2 picks for mega instead of 1

that should be everything!

[polar ore]

👏

[neon oxide]

Ur a rockstar ty

[frozen belfry]

No problem

[modest ginkgo]

Gold seals work great

[polar ore]

[modest ginkgo]

[obsidian frigate]

what was demo gold seal

[modest ginkgo]

On play, cards return to hand

[obsidian frigate]

ah

[modest ginkgo]

with glass cards that broke it just created gaps in your hand that didnt do anything XD