#POKER HANDS

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crimson wolf
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šŸ§µ

scenic basalt
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i like the current set of hands but if I were to add anything it would definitely be flush 5oak

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royal flush doesnt make sense as its own hand, its just the highest scoring straight flush

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im very surprised to see people voting for royal flush being a distinct hand/planet since it's such a specific hand. Being it's own planet would be a huge nerf lol

crimson wolf
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For a synopsis of the discussion around Royal Flush, why people want it/dont want it:
https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/30036/why-is-royal-flush-ever-listed-separately-from-straight-flush#:~:text=In modern times (since%201980,40%20%2D%2090%20times%20the%20stake.

Board & Card Games Stack Exchange
Why is Royal Flush ever listed separately from Straight Flush?

Many sources explicitly list Royal Flush as the highest poker hand (example). This seems unnecessary - it's the highest hand anyway as the highest Straight Flush. When presenting a ruleset, unneces...

vital sequoia
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I donā€™t think it should be separate as a hand/planet, I think they appear like an Easter egg

scenic basalt
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it already appears as an easter egg

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at least for royal flush

vital sequoia
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Not fish

honest canopy
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yeah the Royal Flush would just take away a planet card slot that would be used for something else

vital sequoia
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That or a flat increase on top of their basic values

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But I think the game feels more involved if it at least mentions in name Flush of Kind (or if you wanna be silly, Fish)

scenic basalt
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flush 5oak does have more requirements than a normal 5oak but in the context of Balatro specifically, flush 5oaks are often what you end up doing in 5oak builds anyway

thorn delta
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exactly

crimson wolf
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There still is a reason why people get disappointed when they play 5 Ace of spades and nothing special happens

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Because I get that it feels special

scenic basalt
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yeah

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i think its another case where making it an independant hand would actually make it worse

crimson wolf
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I thought the 'Royal Flush' easter egg would also help with that for the special straight flush, not sure it has though

scenic basalt
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by splitting flush and non-flush 5oak you end up weakening both

vital sequoia
crimson wolf
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In terms of game design - absolutely splitting it up makes the game worse

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And any non-planet type upgrade is adding another mechanic to the mix, which is also not good

scenic basalt
vital sequoia
vital sequoia
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Though if itā€™s a big enough issue it could say + 10 or smth

crimson wolf
scenic basalt
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not necessarily, if someone has been playing 5oaks all run and just happen to play a flush 5oak I think it would just get lost in the noise

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same way some people miss royal flush having a visual easter egg

crimson wolf
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Yeah hence why people have been mentioning they want both totally separate

scenic basalt
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i think the root of the problem, which you have also identified localthunk, is not that people want royal flush/fish to be independant hands, but rather that they want them to feel special

crimson wolf
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5oak flush is technically better because it triggers all Jokers that have 'contains a flush' as a condition

scenic basalt
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because as mentioned earlier, making them independant hands actually just makes them significantly worse

crimson wolf
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but apart from that, I don't see a simple middle ground

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Even adding 5oak Flush as a easter egg only will probably add to the confusion

scenic basalt
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yeah I agree

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imo either the whole issue needs to be ignored, or you add a system for bonuses on special hands outside of independent hands (Something similar to what M0xes said)

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like in the poker hands list, you would have "subhands" that score as the main hand + some subhand bonus

crimson wolf
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So like a bonus list? Somehow communicate that in the collection

scenic basalt
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Subhands could be moons of the respective planets šŸ‘€

crimson wolf
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Then I could include broadway straight, the wheel, dead mans hand, all those ones that people mentioned before

scenic basalt
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wait this actually opens up the design space so much LMAO

crimson wolf
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5oak Flush ,4oak Flush

thorn delta
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has anyone asked for quad flush?

crimson wolf
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I think it was theorized but not really discussed much

vital sequoia
crimson wolf
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These wouldn't be new cards btw

scenic basalt
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Definitely dont need extra planet cards

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but like eventually if you wanted to you could

crimson wolf
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Nor moons, just 'subhands' in the collection

thorn delta
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imagine if the planet card art added a moon for the subhands you've played that game, a cosmetic version of unlocking ceres/X

crimson wolf
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with unique names, and some small bonus. Maybe money for some, maybe an extra discard, maybe extra chips, maybe swap chips/mult

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So that would add flavour

thorn delta
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oh god swap chips and mult

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with ice cream

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easy 10k

scenic basalt
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I think adding a bunch of nickname hands via subhands might confuse people during scoring though, so they would need to score like "Royal Flush (Straight Flush)" or something similar so you dont need to root through your poker hands to check which main hand the subhand belongs to

crimson wolf
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  • Subhand bonus!
    Broadway Straight
    +100 Chips
scenic basalt
crimson wolf
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Well if I do this - it'll be post 1.0

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But I don't hate the idea

scenic basalt
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like if you are using delayed gratification, you might want to use tarot cards to target a subhand with a discard bonus

crimson wolf
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That would appease people too

scenic basalt
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its a great idea for post-launch content that would significantly alter how people play in a positive way

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and in a very non-punishing way as well, if you fail to build a subhand build you are still deep into a main hand build

vital sequoia
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Glad to see the flat bonus is a cool idea šŸ˜Ž

scenic basalt
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i like it, just requires additional systems

crimson wolf
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I do like it - but it would be a lot of work and it's a whole new system to keep track of

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So not for now but maybe eventually

scenic basalt
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what would happen to flush house in this case? Feels like a subhand of full house at this point lol

crimson wolf
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I still think it is fine, I don't know

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If you get something for 5oak Flush then it's still in the right direction even if the line is more fuzzy

scenic basalt
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yeah true

eternal stratus
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Subhand bonus sounds pretty good to me. Opens up new Joker ideas too, maybe? Without being as specific as Planet cards

thorn delta
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it's a bit weird for consistency, but i do think that difficulty-wise, it still makes sense for flush house to be its own thing and flush quints to be a subhand

scenic basalt
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Slang Joker: Doubles all nicknamed hands (subhands) bonuses

granite bay
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I like the mystery of five of a kind, I was laughing so hard when I discovered it in game.

sharp glacier
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Honestly it would just a nerf for straight flushes and 5 of a kind. It's already hard enough to get those decks(without cheese). And to have a chance to get a lesser version of a five of a kind because you have been upgrading your regular five of a kind would stink

languid stone
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I feel like it's weird for Ceres to be the only hidden hand planet. I'd imagine the other non-Pluto mainline planets would also gain hands and be unlockable but rn it sticks like an odd oddity to me

scenic basalt
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planet x is the other hidden hand planet

languid stone
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I feel it'd make sense if Ceres was replaced with another hypothetical/myth planet like Planet X

scenic basalt
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ah i see what you are saying

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yeah lets change ceres to vulcan

languid stone
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Either make both irl dwarf planets or make both not real planets, having them both be separate categories like that is weird and kinda a themeing fail

modest warren
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I love all of this above. We definitely need a change to the special hands

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I do like adding the art of the sub hand onto the main planet card like onto the four of a kind planet(mars) If you get a five of a kind, it will add something in the background, or even in the foreground about five oak (like planet X)

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As well as something in the collection

lusty shadow
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I think a bonus (like a 1.5x initial chips and/or mult) for 5oak flush or royal flush would be cool, but probably still keep them in their respective categories so they arenā€™t nerfed/hand categories donā€™t get bloated

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Oh looks like thatā€™s what people were already saying. Ya subhand bonus would be great!

thorn delta
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1.5x is huge

leaden hornet
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could Flush House become a subhand of Full House?

leaden hornet
vital sequoia
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btw, if youre doing bonus hands, could it have a cool effect where it like appears in the center of the screen like:

    /  +X Multiplier  \
lusty shadow
thorn delta
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true

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with enough levels it could still be very significant though

lusty shadow
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Ya, I do like the idea of it scaling with the hand level and not being flat though

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Idk how high youā€™ll be able to level hands (especially the high level ones that would have sub hands) realistically in the full game

digital goblet
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I donā€™t see why ā€œis a hand with a name and valueā€ and ā€œhas a planet cardā€ have to be aligned. I donā€™t think flush of a kind needs a planet card at all, but I think having it in the game as just a hand would be great. The first time I managed to get a flush of a kind was honestly disappointing since it didnā€™t do anything else, not even a different name

eternal stratus
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The key is theyre both the fusion of 2 separate, standalone 5-card hands

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5oak makes obvious sense as being a separate hand, and while I was doubtful earlier, now i'd be tempted to say that a flush of a kind also really does! (Being a 5oak that happens to be a flush)

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Straights are sadly way too restrictive to have extra special hands... But the idea of "flushing a hand" only granting a special bonus kind of goes against established poker (and Balatro) rules with the straight flush. Or youd have to start treating straight flushes the same, but thatd be weird!

thorn delta
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you could change things a bit and flushed hands just adds value to the other half poker hand

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so straight flush becomes combined chips and mult of straight and flush

eternal stratus
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It would be an idea, but thatd be a heavy change at this point

thorn delta
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perhaps

eternal stratus
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Im not really the biggest fan of the fact that if you buff straights or flushes, you can get punished for playing a straight flush, but Ive been accepting it as an extra step of decision making

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Im sure its only a matter of time before i lose a run because ive been "too lucky" and my only flush option was also a straight, so the intended awesome lvl.24 flush ends up being a weak lvl.3 straight flush instead

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Sounds like a complaint but honestly, i probably wouldnt be that mad. Id be the one to go all in on a single strat, Id deserve the punishment balatrojoker

narrow ridge
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Royal Flush should not have a separate card, but it should be rewarded - perhaps +1 level to a standard Straight Flush?

red vale
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was writing a bunch but that's such a better idea

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and it won't add too many different planet cards so that it would make it a hassle to level things up

narrow ridge
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Yeah, "different base stats but same Planet Card" would work well for Flush of a Kind, Royal Flush, etc

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...but if you go with that logic you might have to remove Ceres

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And I don't like that

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Most of the time, you'll have at most ten planet cards available for a given run, and that doesn't need to change

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Maybe you could make it "different base stats and level-ups give a different boost?"

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Plus, as you've said, it can be weird to play a strictly better hand and get a worse score because of how your Planet Cards work out

red vale
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Five of a kind FLUSH has a pretty easy crafting condition, seeing as, if you're already making loads of duplicates of a card, unless you're bringing everything up to the same card using Strength tarots, you're more than likely to get lots of the same Suit for the specific Rank you're multiplying

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as in, if you're making a five of a kind, you're probably already making a five of a kind flush as well

narrow ridge
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Yeah, like I said in general, flush of a kind is slightly easier to make than flush house, although flush house tends to be more consistent without an Orrery or something

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For the same reason that vanilla full house is so good early-game

red vale
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yep

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royal flush is actually probably the hardest thing to consistently get though

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so my train of thought is, if you're building a "royal flush"-specific deck, you probably are going through lots of hurdles to make it

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and if you're going through all that pain, you should probably be rewarded for it in some kind of specific way

narrow ridge
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Straight flush on its own is prestigious, and honestly Ɨ8 doesn't seem like enough mult for it

thorn delta
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it does have a problem where it's almost harder to get than 5oak

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maybe it actually is, idk

narrow ridge
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You could do "Ɨ1.5 Mult before calculating bonuses" for a Royal Flush

red vale
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it just straight up is, so many more cards you need to specifically have in the exact same rank/suit

narrow ridge
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Yeah, any straight flush is bloody hard to get, and a straight flush deck is arguably harder to make than a flush house deck

red vale
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x1.5 mult, or +1-3 extra levels for the hand, would fit for the royal flush

narrow ridge
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Also I feel like Straight in general should be an Ɨ4 mult

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Full House is just kind of overcentralising on Ante 1, being the only real reliable way to get 300 in a single hand first round

red vale
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a straight or a flush on their own is generally much easier to pull than the alt but it is kind of weird that a straight is less rewarding than a flush tbh

vital sequoia
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I think thatā€™s a weird quirk of poker in general, straights feels more difficult than flushes in terms of chance, but are scored reverse

narrow ridge
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Flushes are Ɨ4 base mult, yes?

red vale
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nah, flush is 40x3, straight is 30x3

thorn delta
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x3

red vale
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embed fail

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oh you can't embed here; either way that's an image of the hands

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to kind of exemplify how difficult a royal flush is to pull, spam a few runs and try to build a royal flush in the first blind

thorn delta
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||Flush House 200x20||
||5oak 100x10||
SF 100x8
4oak 60x5
FH 40x4
Flush 40x3
Straight 30x3
3oak 20x3
2Pair 20x2
Pair 10x2
HC 5x1

narrow ridge
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I feel like the comparison is more Flush House being overtuned than anything else, you could easily turn down it's base mult by 5 and still have it feel good to pull off

vital sequoia
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Anyways the current non secret planets are fine as it is as you can get those without deck modification, if a hand downgrades even though itā€™s better, tough nuts thatā€™s on you for not upgrading

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Thatā€™s like complaining a full house is worse than two pair because you only upgraded two pair

red vale
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agreed that flush house is pretty overtuned, 200x20 is kinda crazy

narrow ridge
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I feel like "a hand scores the highest base stats it qualifies for" would be interesting, although that would result in Every Hand counting as High Card if you took Pluto enough times... which is funny enough that it's not a drawback

vital sequoia
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Tbh Flouse is a little hard to get, you gotta hope for gl on grim

red vale
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thing is, in a game where you can super fine-tune a poker deck, getting multiples of the same card type both rank and suit, it's much easier to get things like flush houses and 5oak's

narrow ridge
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If the game gives you Flush House it gives you Flush House

red vale
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but straight flushes are much more difficult, because - while totally possible in normal poker - it requires a LOT of luck, and building a deck around straight flushes requires much more specific fine-tuning than you need for fhouses and 5oaks

narrow ridge
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Better said, if you get enough suit manip in the right spots, you can pretty easily draw a Flush House every single round

red vale
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on one hand 100x10 is good fun for a 5oak and incentivizes you to build special, Balatro-unique decks, as does Fhouses, but 200x20 is much too high imo

narrow ridge
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Yeah, Straight Flush being a "normal" poker hand feels like the only reason it's not better than 5oak or FlH

red vale
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and i kinda get it tbh

narrow ridge
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But I agree, it's significantly harder to consistently get, for less reward

red vale
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but it does end up being a bit of a buzzkill when you realize that the hardest hand-type to build is actually much less rewarding than more easily-built hand-types

narrow ridge
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100Ɨ15 for FlH would probably be balanced, considering the relative difficulty of getting it in a game where Spectral Cards exist

red vale
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i wonder what the last 2 spectral cards are

narrow ridge
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But then again, getting a Suit Tarot in reserve can often be an Instant Flush House: Just Add Water

red vale
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cuz if there's going to be a Spectral Card that can straight up build a Straight (i.e. "changes ranks of cards into a straight") then having straight flushes as less rewarding makes sense

narrow ridge
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(Moon, Star, World, don't remember what the Spades one is)

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Also the fact that Strength is a Tarot but doesn't have a rank-reducing counterpart

red vale
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inverted tarot cards šŸ¤”

narrow ridge
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You could definitely do that

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They'd have to be significantly rarer than their counterparts, I think

red vale
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penalty-incurring tarot cards that offer "devil deals" of sorts

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though on the other hand, spectral cards kinda are that already

narrow ridge
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  • The Fool, Reversed: Your next Tarot card that selects a card in your hand instead selects your whole hand. You cannot remove this effect until it is used.
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In that case, also remove the skip button on arcana packs.

digital goblet
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I might run with that and make a full suggestion out of it, if you donā€™t mind

narrow ridge
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Go for it

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Stronger, Rarer, Riskier, Funnier

digital goblet
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Just the concept, not the specific effect (would be way too broken with that effect)

narrow ridge
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Maybe as a Joker? "You can select one more card when using a Tarot card"?

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Actually, back to the topic, setting your deck up so a Flush of a Kind is even possible takes more work than a Flush House

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With luck, you can make the cards for a Flush House with a single Moon, but for a True Flush you'd at minimum need Moon and Death on three exact cards

granite bay
abstract hatch
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i joined this server specifically to see if royal flush was discussed, lucky me lmao

abstract hatch
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make 'em special outside of just bigger numbers, keep the synergies for the base hands, and have it as an added bonus

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i think that would feel great to use and shoot for

calm spear
dire osprey
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people might have an easier time doing 5 of a kind flush since I find it almost impossible to do at the moment but maybe a compromise is add Flush hand into 5 of a Kind when the player manage to made 5 of a Kind Flush so that people felt it is a little more powerful than it is

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otherwise that would be too niche and adding another planet card might seen very few played

granite bay
night mural
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it is the convo if you jump