#bar chart How do you feel about being

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

bright bison
#

🧵

bronze plume
#

i feel it should be a difficulty option

bright bison
#

I am seriously considering putting aside my bias and adding this (even as an experimental feature to test), wanted to know thoughts because that is quite a bit of work for the UI

#

And I want the first hour people play to be enjoyable - this is something I have seen quite a few new people bring up and I can't argue with data

bronze plume
#

do I feel the finished game as a difficulty would be good yes. does it need to happen really soon I dont think so

fossil bloom
#

I definitely agree that its gonna slow everything down, I enjoy the pace of the game and feel rewarded when I pay attention to what cards I've discarded

bronze plume
#

maybe it could be a joker ability

fossil bloom
#

Thats a ton of UI and effort for that

bronze plume
#

it could just show whats in your discard only

#

or draw lol

devout idol
#

I think if this was a joker card I wouldn't mind it honestly

#

like it helps you count cards if you haven't learned it natrually while playing this game

#

I always thought counting cards was hard but i just naturally learned "hey i shouldn't expect x card when i discard", its nice to learn that without even trying

wide ridge
#

I think the game works great without deck or discard knowledge, and I think the game would be worse overall for having this information available. In a thematic sense, poker players don't get access to the deck or the muck during play. In a pace sence, I think it will slow things down. I also think people are.more likely to chase hands and be disappointed more often when they miss.

If a player needs 1 more 8 for a 4 of a kind and can confirm that is not in the discards and thus must be in my deck, they may be more likely to chase the card they know they have availabile and be upset when they don't get it, even though the likelihood is they were never going to get it. This may then effect people's perceptions of the odds of the game as "I never get the hand and always miss" (see people's experience of Wheel of Fortune and lucky cards).

I do however concede that if you want the widest net of people to play the game and really buy into it for many hours, this may need to be implemented somehow.
Perhaps there is a 'beginner' deck that offers this feature. Maybe it's a joker and a deck offers it as a Negitive from the start for beginners, maybe it's a voucher?

But ultimately I think the game is more fun when you get the feel for the rhythm of your decks and learn to be more adaptive rather than being tunnel visioned onto a specific hand/draw.

devout idol
#

Or a joker/voucher

#

Like the UI could be when you hover over your deck it shows how many of x face is in it / where it is in the deck

plush belfry
#

Card counting is an advanced skill - even if there was a UI for showing what cards is on the deck having the idea of checking that to see what cards is most probable to come is a very advanced ability that either they learned from irl card counting or a different roguelike with a similar mechanic.

I really like the idea of a joker that lets you do this; it acts as a sort of tutorial for the mechanic - if a new players sees the UI for seeing the deck they won't think much of it but if they see a joker that gives you that UI then they'll start thinking on how to properly use and get the most out of that joker

wide ridge
plush belfry
#

I know nothing about slay the spire so I'll just take your word for it and not get too in the weeds in this conversation

smoky tapir
#

i think there's another solution for this out there. i don't think you have to cave on this just yet. identifying exactly why players want the visible deck and discard might reveal possibilities, specifically pertaining to what feels good/bad about the situation to them

bright bison
#

I think I know what it is - there is a feeling that there is information that is technically available (you can write down cards you have played and infer your draw deck) so why shouldn't it be available through the UI? And if I tell them 'no' then I'm essentially telling them they can't play the way that they wish they could play (min max)

#

I get the issue - it's like people that want to see the cards feel like they either have homework or they can't do what they want

#

The thing I wasn't considering is how intrusive is the solution really?

#

Because if it's not actually an issue then there isn't a reason to omit that information. I don't know if the STS issue is a UX issue or a fundamental design one

#

Including a joker/setting feels like a band aid to me, not solving the actual problem fundamentally

wide ridge
#

Well the poll is giving good data to that end.

fossil bloom
#

I think adding too many UI elements can be a detractor for a game this elegant, there's already a bunch going on
I also believe personally that Discouraging minmaxing is a valid game design strategy and can trick players into actually having more fun than they think
Good example to me is in Gungeon, where minmaxing is discouraged by despawning items that aren't picked up (vs Isaac where players run around floors for 10+ mins scraping the barrel)

smoky tapir
#

that's definitely true for some people, but for me it's a bit different - i've not wanted to min max, but i have wanted to know if the pairs, 3oak, etc.im going for have the best odds of matching, especially if im fighting for survival. i've adapted to just repeating to myself which card ranks i've discarded and then avoiding them in future hands, and that works alright. but i think the overall point gets across - some people might just want to know if what they're trying for has good odds, or is even possible in the first place (like a straight flush or 4oak they may have thrown out already).

with your feedback on the conversations here, i have come to see the side of things that just says "if you lose because you didn't play for the exact right hand you should've been playing, maybe your deck wasn't strong enough." if that could be communicated to the player somehow, then maybe that could help the issue

wide ridge
#

Yeah, I think people will minmax the fun out of the experience and that simply not having the option is the the elegant and most simple solution

bright bison
#

Hence why I want to consider the conflicting idea honestly

fossil bloom
#

It's like the quote from the Civilization developer,
"given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game"

bright bison
fossil bloom
#

Lol yeah 💥

#

I guess I understand wanting to cater to those people

smoky tapir
#

there's also the angle that the players that can't get past the lack of draw/discard knowledge is maybe not your target audience

wide ridge
#

Having perfect data kinda moves things from a Roguelike to a Strategy game? But that might be semantics

bright bison
#

That 2nd step is a poor user experience, and for streamers it makes up a significant chunk of their playtime when they do their 1 or 2 runs on stream

fossil bloom
#

I also think the perceived reward / dopamine from correctly counting cards and having deck intuition is a lot greater than that of checking a menu to see what's statistically better

smoky tapir
#

that is a good point

#

how well do you think it would work to mention it in the tutorial, to help set expectations?
"just like normal poker, you can't see the draw pile, or your discards. you could keep track on paper if you wanted, but you should be able to learn to win without."

wide ridge
#

What if Jimbo made it very clear at the beginning that the house is in control of the cards and therefore you can't peek at the deck or the discards while the round is in play. This way they have been made aware of it in the tutorial and may be less frustrated than if they went looking for something and not finding it?

fossil bloom
#

I like that. Making it part of onboarding can lessen the bite of it

bright bison
#

I don't think that would move the needle much - especially people that aren't predisposed to like the game and are willing to challenge design ideas

#

If I weren't a fan of the mechanic I would see that and think 'that sucks'

#

Just trying to extrapolate

smoky tapir
#

that's fair. i think i was approaching it from my own angle, because that probably would've worked on me (a B voter)

#

ive played a lot of games and learned the valuable lesson that the right way to play is the most fun way, not always the most optimal way, so im usually open to that kind of thing

fossil bloom
#

No matter which option you choose there will be people unsatisfied. I think there's proportionately more to lose in pacing and overall enjoyment than there is to lose in minmaxing and perfectionism

bright bison
#

Unless I have actual data - I have been useing the STS anecdote but just trying to challenge that for myself

fossil bloom
#

Well it's definitely a good reason to make a poll for it like this

smoky tapir
#

well, sts's version of this is about knowing the exact order of your draw pile. at base, you can always see your draw and discards in that game

bright bison
#

And if it's possible - what would the least intrusive version of that UI be that would make the min max group satisfied

smoky tapir
#

there is a parallel, but sts already has the feature we're discussing by default

bright bison
#

Part of the issue with STS is that the mechanic changes depending on if you have that relic - so you have something to compare it against

#

If this is the default for Balatro maybe it won't be as much of an issue as I feared

fossil bloom
#

Also I feel it's worth mentioning that a single card in STS "weighs" a little more, no? Ofc cards are important in both but the average single card in STS can effect a lot more than one in Balatro could
So the priorities are a little shifted

wide ridge
#

If there were ascention style tiers. Discard peeking and deck peeking could be present at a base level, and then be stripped away at higher levels of play?

bright bison
fossil bloom
bright bison
#

Like not being able to see hand previews

smoky tapir
#

im just now realizing that i use the Run Info tab a ton to help with my adapted decision making

#

which is a very large ui to bring up often

wide ridge
bright bison
#

If any of this is hidden/locked/etc it doesn't solve the actual problem

#

Which is the flow of a new user

fossil bloom
smoky tapir
#

oof lol

bright bison
#

None of the users that have stayed with Balatro are going to want this - survivorship bias in addition to them realizing that the game isn't about min maxing cards

#

Myself included

#

So I want to explore - how do I implement this to make that group still have an equal amount of fun

#

who knows, maybe it's more fun that way

#

I was thinking of somehow reducing it to pips only - making it as small as possible and having your actual cards available to select WHILE you can see the contents of your draw pile

#

That way the flow is only interrupted by your thought process and not context switching visually via the UI

#

bound to shift/RT, could slide in from the right

fossil bloom
#

Hmm. Would love to see some pen to paper mockups for this maybe

smoky tapir
#

i was thinking you could reuse the left bar from the run info screen that shows the general makeup of your deck, i.e. the number of each rank and suit, etc

#

and then switch to a fuller grid view if the player wants to see exact cards

bright bison
#

Am I on the dark side now?

smoky tapir
#

lol

bright bison
#

Hey fun doesn't care about my opinion or me digging my heels in

#

So ces't la vie

smoky tapir
#

if you do go through with this, you could always add a joker or something with a mechanic that makes the draw/discard peeking completely worthless, to keep a piece of your original vision in the game

#

like after every hand, your discard is shuffled back into your deck, but gain a large benefit, call it roulette joker or smth

bright bison
#

If I make this change - I'll do another poll but I am very very open to throwing it out if people do find it has issues with pacing. So if/when that happens please share thoughts knowing it could go either way

#

I was hoping C would be like 50 and 2-4 for the rest

wide ridge
#

We need an A/B test.

bright bison
#

Exactly

#

Tune in tomorrow when we discuss making a FULL preview of your score when selecting a hand

#

That'll be spicy

smoky tapir
#

oh boi

fossil bloom
#

Does the info collection include average run length? Would be a helpful variable

bright bison
fossil bloom
#

Per run

#

Yeah

bright bison
#

As an A/B that would be handy info

fossil bloom
#

For sure

grave stream
#

Skill issue if u need this feature

mighty estuary
#

Should be included, It can put in with your deck info where gray out cards are cards you have played.

#

I don't find myself keeping track of the cards unless I'm going for a very specific strategy. Like straights full houses.

#

Also counting what cards you have played is something you can do already, it would just make it easier to keep track of.

smoky tapir
#

i just realized showing the draw/discard messes with The Wheel a bit 🤔

mighty estuary
smoky tapir
#

yeah, there's solutions available. just have to bring to attention

mighty estuary
#

It's a very fair question

bright bison
#

Oh I would implement it so it doesn't show order

tough otter
#

Id probably only check it at most once per round and only at the point where I'm nearing the end of the deck (assuming I get the deck that thin)

latent garden
#

Checking the deck page and having cards that are discarded as gray seems like a good solution - it’s not inherently in the flow of play but it’s there if you seek it out

latent garden
tough otter
#

lucky card manipulation inc

#

i guess it would show the 'worst case scenario' with maybe like a + if there's rng involved? i dunno

wind rover
#

(I know just is an understatement and game things aren’t easy)

tough otter
#

maybe it can be something you unlock idk

wind rover
#

maybe there’s a joker that previews it

tough otter
#

no one would use that joker lol

wind rover
#

fair

teal lagoon
#

I wish I could see my discarded cards instead

tough otter
#

yeah it has to be discarded cards, remaining cards breaks the wheel

#

in other cases it's basically equivalent

west lion
#

maybe instead of having it as a bandaid for like a joker or a voucher, you have it in the settings? and maybe a small warning of this might take away some of the fun of the game if this is left on? I know it would probably be annoying to implement, but it does give those that want the... I don't wanna call it a handicap... but those that want a lessen challenge the ability to do so without forcing a balance shift of the main game. and for those that don't need it, or want to play without it, it's disabled and not there.

#

oh... I was late to the convo woops

gusty ingot
#

idk, people say it messes with the pacing but the only reason I want it is to check up every now and then if the hand im going for is actually possible

like im hard discarding all my hands and then I see I have two pairs and wonder if I can make it a full house. its at times like those that I want to check hey, do I have either of these values still in my deck, or is this the best ill get

Id definitely not check after every single hand/discard, just once in a while for specific cases

also as for ui elements, Ive already tried click on the deck bottom left- seems intuitive to me that you click on that to see your remaining deck, maybe with a small hover over animation if it becomes an actual thing

snow dragon
#

Didn't really want to revive this thread, but this is exactly my feeling as well. I don't think this is only a min-max thing, but I feel like every now and then, when you really need to hit that sweet hand to survive, it's good to know what your chances are. I certainly wouldn't check it every turn, and my hunch is that the vast majority of people wouldn't.

warped lagoon
#

For me, it wouldn't interrupt my pacing. I find myself spending more time comitting to memory the cards I'm discarding so that I don't attempt an impossible full house/straight down the road. If I didn't have to worry about memorizing all of that, I would probably play much faster

mighty estuary
woeful marlin
#

just make a setting/modifier that you can allow to see what cards you played and discarded

#

you can choose if you want to play a run like that

rotund marsh
#

At first I kind of wanted to see what was in the draw pile, but after reading your explanation on why you kept it out, (counting cards being a card game mechanic) I agree with your decision.

mighty estuary
#

Counting cards in poker is a skill because of cards you don't see. In balatro it's all general info.

wide ridge
twilit aurora
#

If I got to see what remains/discarded I would feel a lot more comfortable discarding and taking more unusual risks to spice up my builds.

austere hound
#

I understand the hesitancy about the existence of this feature min-maxing the fun out of the game, but I think that people who would min max to the degree that they would start not having fun would be the types to manually keep track of every card played / discarded, which sounds so much more tedious than checking a single screen for a single card to see "do I still have an 8 left to be able to draw with my pair of 8's to complete my full house, or did I discard it earlier?"

#

The lack of this feature basically just makes me frustrated at myself for not paying attention to what I discard earlier in the round and makes the game less relaxing, because when I get lower on cards I start to worry about missing critical information that I had the potential to keep track of, which makes me start thinking I might need to manually keep track of everything once the game gets harder. Which doesn't sound laid back or relaxing if that is the intended experience

hexed kraken
#

I know this discussion's kinda old, so I dunno if anyone will see this, but I thought I'd add:

As someone who tends to "optimize the fun out of games," adding a feature to see the remaining deck would vastly improve my experience with the game. Because as the game now stands, counting cards is something I do anyway. In a given round (at least if I haven't found a broken strategy yet), probably around 75% of my focus is trying to remember roughly what values and suits have been played. Having that information available at the click of a button would likely speed up how quickly I play through each hand, and allow me to relax more while playing.

The thing is, playing optimally means memorizing exactly which cards have already been played. I don't always even use that information, but feel compelled to try to count cards just in case.

Additionally, I often just want to know the answer to a simple question: "are there more hearts or spades left?" "did I already discard a 7?" etc., so pulling up the draw pile view would be rather quick, rather than me stopping and trying to remember what cards I discarded 3 hands ago.