Jayke Siege/WGB Thread

[vale jay]

You know how I told you Nora is actually fucking deadly

And you were like unit seems useless

Then you had one encounter

Like Fuuki fucking hurts

That unit is no fair

It's definitely a rune issue

Fuuki can shred through almost anything pretty effortlessly on 4*

That unit is just too much, I try to avoid bruisering it

[meager mauve]

I had one encounter where I chose 3 wind units into her and if I had just picked Tetra she would have been useless you mean?

[vale jay]

Maybe

[meager mauve]

I see your point, and it's why I'm asking.

[vale jay]

I still feel like you can lose even with tetra

[meager mauve]

Because I honestly have such a hard time understanding what works and doesn't work because I'm constantly going against really poorly runed defenses.

[vale jay]

I'm not saying tetra doesn't largely invalidate Nora

But Nora can go sicko mode

[meager mauve]

Also another question of khmun/racuni/tractor is how do you prevent the res from platy. Elucia CC's platy and Delphoi can reset her, but without those you'd have to be killing fuuki over and over again.

And if it's a destroy battle you can probably lose that.

[supple onyx]

I was in unfair bears when I took a break s2 after DOMINATING Mali

[meager mauve]

This WGB made it obvious that I don't know how to deal with Odin comps very well.

The odin hit I thought I could win it because Elsha could strip, but Chandra + Josephine hit him enough that he died.

The Chandra Nora Gapsoo hit I thought maybe I could win it but the way turns cycled it was impossible for me to kill anything. I think it probably could have won if Amelia and Windy moved after Bolverk instead of before.

The Hyanes hit I have learned not to use this comp into FY. Very poor decision on my part. I thought I could easily CC him, but then I realized in the battle that it not only increases his ATB, but Verad has a hard time CCing him because he can glance.

[autumn crystal]

max acc into max res is 15% chance to res, not 15% chance to cc

[meager mauve]

Oh you're right. I keep getting those mixed up.

[autumn crystal]

still can glance (and fy is one of the few units that might be high enough def to get past verad auto freeze)

[meager mauve]

Yup. Definitely a big mistake.

I've been trying in all my WGB hits lately to pick ones that seem difficult or have monsters that seem tough to bruiser, as it's too easy to pick ones that I can lushen, then julie, then Jaara, then find a carc/miles/elad and run laika nana tetra and get 10 wins.

I want to challenge myself, and the fact that I'm losing means that I'm not thinking properly about the comps.

[calm falcon]

@meager mauve is your windy not on destroy?

[meager mauve]

He is indeed, but the way that it worked is Bolverk -> Gapsoo. In other words, there was never an instance where I could kill after Bolverk's S3.

:/

[calm falcon]

ah

[fiery geode]

if you keep going eventually things will line up

chandra has slow so if he lands it on one of your bolv/windy and not the other

eventually there will be lap/desync

also your windy has spd buff too, so if he applies that but procs out of it same thing

that being said, standard turn order for bolv amelia windy team is bolv > windy > amelia

for the odin hit, in general if you're bruisering then you almost never have room for 2 damage dealers

this has nothing to do with odin in particular

if you replace tesa with another support you probably would have been fine

[meager mauve]

Oh that makes sense. It's pretty obvious now that you mention it.

[fiery geode]

it does not take much def at all to get more than half of verad's def. practically any support or bruiser monster can easily hit enough def

but this is why we get the s2 def break skill with dark homu

[meager mauve]

We got a 10-0 in Siege today. I do have a couple of general questions, nothing in specific.

First, I was definitely rune gapped on 2 or 3 of my hits (probably more than that to be honest). While I understand that's why I'm attempting to take the correct teams into hits, it is worrying to me because I feel like I'll be permanently stuck at the level I'm at now. Everyone else is farming just like I am.

So is there really no hope for me to ever "catch up" per se?

I'm not expecting to rune gap my opponents, but I am hoping to be less gapped. As it stands right now, even if I run solutions to known defenses such as Malaka Fran Triana into Seara Orion Perna, I come within 1 vio proc of losing because they just have better runes than I do.

Should I expect this all the time, or will I eventually claw my way up to be less... rune poor?

[hardy plank]

Short answer

Catching up is way easier than them moving ahead

There’s a diminishing returns effect

And you have to deal with it way less than say I or jx does

[fiery geode]

in addition to the diminishing returns part

there's just a huge variance at lower levels

as you get better the variance decreases and the potential gap between you and any def will always get smaller and smaller

[meager mauve]

My second question is related to runing. During my hits I runed up a monster that I've never runed before and then re-runed a monster to be a tank rather than to be a bruiser.

Am I setting my expectations too high if I only attempt to steal my very best runes for monsters at the very end of my hits in siege (last two, basically)?

Or should I be stealing my best runes on every single hit possible?

For example, my Tetra:

She's not amazing by any means, and I could absolutely improve her stats if I pulled my very best runes every time I used her.

I could easily get her to 286 tick with a little more health. But I'd have to steal runes from my defenses and I'd have to steal some runes used on other supports to make them 239 tick.

Should I be doing that, or is it better to leave the Tetra where she is now and slowly work my way towards better stats with rune improvements?

[fiery geode]

do what you're comfortable with and are willing to do, but for me stealing runes from defs and random other monsters is a bit too much

[meager mauve]

Okay, that's actually good to hear because I've got some guildmates that basically steal their best runes on every single hit no matter what.

And I've always thought that was really too hard for me to do since #1 I'm still farming runes so I need more mana and #2 I really don't think it's necessary most of the time.

Good to know that higher level players don't all do that either.

Moving on to WGB hits:

Honestly I wasn't sure what to do on 4R. My double snipe team needs to be entirely re-runed. I had it set, and then I had to build some defenses that completely obliterated my sniper teams so it's back to re-runing them. I thought this might work okay but the funny part is that Lulu didn't vio proc until after Windy died. Depending on vio procs to win a hit isn't how you win though.

3R Galleon missed defense breaks on Shazam and Taranys, so the hit basically failed right there. I have been thinking of ways to hit this and I'm not sure I have the monsters to do it with.

[fiery geode]

did we ever talk about hyanes dark homu

[hardy plank]

I believe we have

[meager mauve]

I have it runed. I've used it a lot.

[fiery geode]

that's what you're supposed to use here

[meager mauve]

My brain just saw Taranys, no speed lead and said "That's a free Jaara!"

If I had sat down and looked at it more, I would have seen the Hyanes comp.

[hardy plank]

Pattern recognition fail basically

It happens

[meager mauve]

I've been attempting to pick WGB targets that have comps that I don't know how to hit. It's way too easy for me to pick ones that I know I have comps for and just 10-0 every time. I am still trying to learn so I lose frequently and make dumb mistakes like this.

Hence you see the FAV into the dark mon comp.

[fiery geode]

its cool that you're picking targets that you're not as familiar with, but it almost defeats the purpose of it if you then throw a generic preset bruiser into it

feng vela aaliyah is literally the poster child of "i don't know how to hit this def, fuck it full send"

[odd current]

the hyanes team is a little dubious into taranys defs tbh

but it's fine

[fiery geode]

who are you

[hardy plank]

mythril player

[meager mauve]

I thought I had no other options because I didn't like the ideas with Shamann. For example I was thinking of running something like Shamann Tetra +1 (Mi Ying or Miles or any other non-light bruiser) but I've had multiple instances where Shamann can't tank dark units well enough so I'm scared of using him as one.

I think that's probably a build issue though?

[fiery geode]

we have a bunch of mutual friends so i didn't think it was some random newb

but i disagree that it's dubious

[odd current]

u can just

fail to cc taranys

w verad lol

[hardy plank]

i actually agree with him bc its in the same vein as byung

[odd current]

and it's annoying

[hardy plank]

wind unit who you will glance w.o def break

and has a s1 stun

you can def lose vs it if theyre built proper

[odd current]

byung is less because like very few ppl who will just like build it high enough def

[hardy plank]

IE if you miss def break on taranys and then glance

[odd current]

i've seen it before

and it's funny when it happens though

[hardy plank]

like its still probably

90%

but taranys is one of the worse wind mons to use it vs

[odd current]

but yeah ur gonna glance on taranys more times than u don't and u can sack

but it's not nearly as consistent into other defs

[odd current]

eh not more times than u don't lol

but a fair amt

[fiery geode]

wr with this into byung or taranys is wayyyy higher than 90%

nothing is going to be 100%

that's why this is a popular meta def

and still strong

i understand there are loss conditions with verad into wind units with cc

but it's not big enough to make this one of the best offenses available still, especially with limited runes and box

[odd current]

yeah higher than 90, and the last point is valid

[fiery geode]

and anyway for purposes of discussion here

[odd current]

with limited runes and box use esp just don't expect the same consistency you're used to with that offense

is all

[fiery geode]

if you have a better idea, i'm interested in hearing too 🙂

[odd current]

I think the def break targeting is exploitable

is all

[fiery geode]

this is one of those cases where in practice the offense is much much better than it is on paper

i'm looking at data across several hundreds of hits over multiple guilds

its hard to exploit def break targeting with an LD that also has def break/brand

again if you have a specific offense in mind you'd like to share, please

[supple onyx]

Dang- jx said not to talk in abstract

[fiery geode]

no this is just a long standing issue with loss followup/reflections that has always annoyed me a lot especially in my own guilds and with my guildmates over the years

when people say "your team sucks" but don't give you a better team

it's not helpful and defeats the purpose of these threads

if you don't want to share secret tech, that's fine. just don't even mention it then

[supple onyx]

i mean- isnt that what talking in abstract means? All that yapping about a def being FOOD without providing a solid counter

i frickn love it wen our guildie and sw players do that

im gonna int in isgw btw

[odd current]

I mean i did say it was fine no, just below expected consistency which you see from this team.

unfortunately

dark tanks are premium lol

or the good ones

dias usually just dies in this scenario

but you can cayde this if u have him

[odd current]

Also acknowledging team flaws is always valid imo, even in cases where there isn't a better suggestion ready immediately. EoD you just use best available teams to you even if there are issues pointed out. But not keeping issues in mind can wall improvement at times.

[meager mauve]

I got another 10-0 on siege. First time I've ever had 2 in a row. I have a couple of questions on some specific hits.

First is this one:

This got really dicey. I had everything on -dark but I'm not sure that was the correct play. Should I have put everything on -wind instead?

Or does that matter?

Also, I wasn't sure if Angela was the better pick here or Tetra. I thought Angela might have been slightly better because of the immediately def break cleanses, but I can't really tell.

The second hit is this one:

We were rushing because of siege end and I kind of just cooked this up on the spot. I can't tell if it's actually all that great, but it felt rather safe. I'd like to get some better players' opinions on if this actually works or if I got lucky.

[hardy plank]

why is there a Leo

[meager mauve]

Mostly to avoid my monsters getting lapped. They're all built for Leo. Sylvia speed lead would make them lap my monsters so much.

[fiery geode]

that's not an easy def. lots of common premium presets have a pretty good chance vs it like belial, bolv amelia, mihyang adriana, etc

i don't have angela so i'm not actually sure how good that offense is

looking at stats though it feels like an offense that's not great overall

you can always do a mix of -wind and- dark

the mimirr cichlid vigor it's not the worst thing you can do but you should be able to see what an immediate loss condition is right?

what happens when cichlid lands s3 on triana

[meager mauve]

This actually happened. Cichlid hit Triana and got the def break, and then Mimirr stole atb as well as vio procced. She got down to something like 1/8 health left or so?

I cleansed with Chacha and then after chacha revenged a couple of times, Triana was okay.

I kind of assumed the loss condition would be Vigor hitting chacha while on a CDmg build or something like that.

[fiery geode]

what was their turn order?

because if its cichlid > mimirr > vigor then vigor can hit triana too

[meager mauve]

Ah! It was Cichlid -> Vigor -> Mimirr. Just watched the replay. I didn't realize that was the case. But you are right. If Mimirr moved before Vigor he can make Vigor see Triana. I hadn't thought about that.

[meager mauve]

This is kind of tough. I have artis that give me good -wind or good -dark, I don't really have great mixtures yet. I'll keep that in mind though.

[fiery geode]

even if it's just a triple roll -dark and then you convert in 1 roll of -wind or vice versa, that's good

[vale jay]

I think we just suck at using it

Lutz was spamming it before he left and farming people

[supple onyx]

lutz just roon gaps

[fiery geode]

it's not just rune gap

there's a big knowledge and experience gap too

not just having good runes, but knowing what even are good runes and which of the good runes to use for any particular monster

then there's piloting, and knowing which defs to use a team against

and also just having the experience of knowing the meta and global siege, at least it's a considerable factor for me. just stuff like what guilds or players tend to build a def in 1 way or another. who likes running swift traps or tanky traps, specific players or guilds to avoid.

it's not even fair to call it rune gap

there's really little rune gap at the top

what people are experiencing when they are facing rune gap, is that they're used to beating up newbs and rune gapping shitty players. so when they face a competent player/def and lose, they're not actually getting rune gapped. they're just not doing the rune gapping themselves anymore and then their shitty teams/builds/piloting errors get exposed

i used to think how difficult a particular def is to build or pilot shouldn't count as a factor against how good a team is

you know we'd watch someone lose with a counter because they had a build or pilot error, and say "well this loss doesn't count, this team is still good"

but i guess ultimately that's not really fair. a team that is hard to build or pilot does make it a worse team

everything is relative

tl;dr - no such thing as "we suck at using it," if we suck at using it then it simply just isn't that good

[supple onyx]

must be my big knowledge that made me never lose with thatt comp...

how come my sylvia tl giselle off rarely wins

[meager mauve]

I didn't have awesome targets to attempt to bruiser in WGB today, so I picked ones that I thought my presets wouldn't work well for.

1.) I thought Tesa was a good pick into this comp because of all the passives. Tetra makes it so no bombs can ever explode, and Windy tanks Carc.

2.) I think this comp was mainly just looking at Kinki and thinking that I could tank him with Chacha, and then Fran can tank Jultan + cleanse and provide immunity. It seemed to work alright, but I think I got lucky that the Lulu was built poorly. If it was built on 100 res I don't think this comp is as clean as it felt. I provoked Lulu permanently. She never healed.

3.) This was just a bad defense. Everything can be funneled into a water tank. I probably shouldn't use Tractor as a tank, but I figured with no defense breaks this really loses a lot of danger. Ethna provides strips + def breaks to kill stuff. I thought this was pretty good.

4.) Honestly I didn't quite understand how this was going to work, so I just picked Juno into Vigor, Haegang into Clara, and then hoped Elsha could deal enough damage to win. It seemed okay, but Juno died because she wasn't built tanky.

5.) This is just a really bad defense. Funneled all into Aaliyah. She died, but I realize I piloted wrong. I should have focused Dom with leo up, not Leo. That way Dom can't kill anything and I can get a free win against Leo Riley.

1.) Honestly I just picked this comp because of Sylvia and Theomars. I thought the strips + dots from Shahat would be good, and Angela can immediately cleanse any def breaks. Tetra is probably better here, but I thought I was going to use her on 2R so I used Angela instead.

2.) I was about to bruiser this until I realized I could Hyanes instead since there's no speed lead. I did accidentally pilot poorly by killing Savannah with nana res up. Savannah did take a turn, but luckily she only had S1 up and didn't hurt Verad too badly.

3.) This looked similar to Carc Miles Elad, but with Nigong instead. I can't hit this with the Laika Nana Tetra because Nigong can target a def broken Tetra and kill her. I figured Bolverk would be fine.

4.) This was such a silly mistake. I lost Ethna immediately because I used her S3 on Ophilia. I am really inexperienced with her, and I completely forgot that she steals the buffs rather than just strips the buffs. She stole threat state and immediately got roasted by Benedict. I got extremely lucky in that Riley kept proccing enough to help keep Mi Ying alive to kill everything.

5.) Looking at this now, this is a prime Galleon Tiana Jaara candidate. I should have just cleaved with that instead and it would have been an easy win.

On the last 5, I do think that Tractor again probably shouldn't be used as a tank, but I'm too tempted to use him in places where def breaks would become useless. Stuff like Rina doesn't work because they might not be built on CR and then never proc her shield. Plus there's strips.

[hardy plank]

Pssssssst

The issue on the one you lost wasn’t tractor

It’s you don’t really do damage or sustain

[vale jay]

Bro rina double wind that shit go next

[meager mauve]

so triple water

[vale jay]

ITS BEEN A LONG DAY

[meager mauve]

XD

Rina can just die though can't she?

XZ can strip, manon can def break without critting, and then she gets blasted

That seems like something that could easily happen.

[hardy plank]

Uh ur realistic answer is

1. Unlikely given you’re in ranks where ppl run that

[vale jay]

Read third skill

[hardy plank]

2. You can’t run tractor as a tank and then run a turtle offense

[vale jay]

At least not if you are facing a defense with sustain

Xing Zhe only strips on counters

Like think of it this way

Xing and Manon are both dealing damage

Let's say Fran is a different unit

Like Riley for example

You need something with sustain

If you are running tractor here you see

They have 2 units that deal damage

You have 1

[hardy plank]

basically you can’t pick Fran who isn’t a particularly good sustain unit with Roid

[vale jay]

So

[hardy plank]

Also manon can just def break Fran

And you’re sad

[vale jay]

You lose destroy battle with tractor I feel

[hardy plank]

There’s a world where you get def broken then stunned and you lose

[vale jay]

Yeah that's why I specifically said not Fran

Because if it's Fran you are introducing new loss cons

Whereas like

Rina

It takes a bit longer for her to lose a destroy battle I feel

[hardy plank]

Wait you own Aaliyah

[vale jay]

I feel like even if you just did rina Riley roid (this isn't a good offense, just proof of concept) you would probably win

[hardy plank]

Just ayaya this

[vale jay]

I would use a different wind unit

Instead of roid

[meager mauve]

Galleon Tiana jaara is probably best just because it cleaves.

[vale jay]

Like Momo/Odin/etc

Nah I would bruiser this shit

It's easy

Like I don't think Odin Riley rina ever loses

Or ayaya if you want to be cute is even better

Logan is fine too if you're poor

Any wind bruiser

That does meaningful damage

[hardy plank]

My rule of thumb is

If you can freely ele bruiser

Do that first

Bc it takes the least runes

And is usually the cheapest in a macro sense

[vale jay]

I like that most too, when ele bruisering is an option and it's safe I feel like generally I would rather do that than cleave if it's into ?dontsnipe stuff

[meager mauve]

But it's Jaara cleave so the ?dontsnipe doesn't really count.

I'm dodging all damage reduction, dodging all counters/blocks, etc.

[vale jay]

You're not funneling Manon

If you don't def break her you can just lose

I don't like that

[hardy plank]

Well

Basically

Galleon is a fraud

[meager mauve]

No he's not he's a beautiful boy that always def breaks

[vale jay]

If you wanted to cleave this with truffle or dark tanjiro I'd be more okay with it I feel

Because there is no swift threat

But you are more prone to damage checks without atk buff

So you have to pick your poison there

But why am I even saying this

Just rina +2 press auto and go watch movie

Click the xing zhe

[autumn crystal]

How do I know what movie though? Need that tourney guild movie rec tech

[meager mauve]

Scarlet meant seanb videos

[fiery geode]

this isn't dont snipe stuff though

you use bastet/megan as buffer, and snipe manon > racuni

but overall i still agree with you given this is wgb, id rather bruiser with rina and save cleave for something else

@meager mauve you're severely underestimating rina as a tank even into things not built on cr

some comments on the other ones

1 - tesa not good here if you wanted to use windy as a tank, i feel like we talk about this mistake a lot?

easy for tesa to get def broken and targeted by both carc + cami

4 - maybe the problem is that you're trying to counter individual units and not thinking about the entire team/fight? what happens if clara def breaks elsha? then he gets 3v1'ed

5 - bad team, aaliyah isn't a good tank into dom

you can literally 2v3 this with something like kahli rina

overall still disappointed you didn't double snipe anything in your last a lot of wgb hits

first set def 1, 2, 3 are decent double snipe candidates, 5 is super easy double snipe candidate

second set 4 and 5 are super easy double snipe candidates

[meager mauve]

I'm not sure I follow. Aren't tanks usually something that has damage reduction so that it can take a beating? Rina's only source of damage reduction is her shield, and if they don't ever proc it, she is basically just a water unit with tank stats. What am I missing?

[meager mauve]

O.O I will be honest I 100% didn't even think about that. I just thought "Oh elsha can steal buffs and then if they get stripped Haegang passive will be nice." I didn't even realize that I could have instantly lost.

[meager mauve]

I am so terrified of double-sniping. I have such poor rune quality and I've lost many many times with double-snipe teams that I don't want to do it.

[vale jay]

I think the odds of you losing with either comp is super low

[fiery geode]

with the exception of units that actually cannot crit like onis

things not built on cr doesn't mean they never crit

if it's something like that xing zhe for example

if xing zhe is not built on crit, it's not going to do much damage anyway

rina is still built as a tank, and she has a heal skill too

any monster built as a tank is not going to die to a monster not built on damage

you don't need a passive to do that

then there's the case of some wind dds that aren't built on crit but can still do dmg, like feng or dom

those monsters hit 3 times

and because of wind, you still get 15 cr bonus

[tired hollow]

Dom scares me

If I send rina

[fiery geode]

so the chance of even those not critting you repeatedly are extremely low

dom also has 15 cr awakening too doesn't he

[tired hollow]

Ur correct

[fiery geode]

so with literally 0 bonus crit he has a 45 chance to crit you per hit

[tired hollow]

Maybe he shouldn’t as much

[fiery geode]

and he is attacking you either 3 times, or 6 times

[tired hollow]

2?

[fiery geode]

if he's not critting you after all of those you can go buy a lotto ticket

[tired hollow]

His third hit won’t crit I thought

On s1

[fiery geode]

oh sorry you're right his passive doesn't crit i was thinking of benedict 😄

but still he's multihitting

[tired hollow]

Benedict ignores defense, isn’t that even scarier

[fiery geode]

i'm not saying use rina to tank benedict

[tired hollow]

True

Also, dom heal blocks and brands- does that scare you at all?

Like if rina can’t cleanse the heal block

Idk- I guess I should test something like dom ophilia manon or something with a rina tank

[fiery geode]

we're never talking about 1v1

[fiery geode]

that's why i specifically broke out the list into possible double snipe candidates and "super easy" double snipe candidates where anyone can do it with green quality runes

and anyway you've lost so many times with bruiser comps into everything as well

but we've been over this

[tired hollow]

How do I find this

[meager mauve]

#1048719420870107227 is the list he's talking about I believe.

Or the ?doublesnipe command.

One of the two. Or both.

[fiery geode]

no i meant this

[tired hollow]

Oh, I think the idea here is that if you can’t double snipe a double snipeable defense, you’re outruned enough that you’d just as likely lose with bruisers anyways, and it builds a bad habit of discounting a perfectly valid offense?

[fiery geode]

yes

and just to re-iterate these points that have been discussed in this thread before:

1. there is no such thing as a "t2 player" for siege like there may be for rta. any good siege player needs to be prepped with both cleave and t2 offenses. there's always going to be defs where cleave offenses are considerably safer than any bruiser offenses.
2. people being afraid to cleave is a very common and understandable issue. when you fail a cleave and get outsped or are unable to 1 shot something it's easy to think "damn my runes suck i shouldn't be cleaving" whereas when you fail a t2 it's easy to chalk it up to "this isn't a bad team i just got unlucky and proc'ed on". but the reality is that bruisering doesn't get you more wins than cleaving despite what your feelings are
3. these threads are about learning and improving and have been ongoing for months if not years. you can't continue to use the excuse of "my runes suck" for eternity

[fiery geode]

also another half related comment i have to get out there: i hate it when people say stuff like "gz leo free win siege"

i just checked our guild's win rate with feng leo (with any +1 like tetra, aaliyah, whatever) and it's actually below our overall offense win rate

so it's quite literally the opposite of a free win

[tired hollow]

What about Adriana?

[fiery geode]

mihyang adriana is well above average

as is most cleaves

including julie

[tired hollow]

Can we say gz Adriana free win then

[fiery geode]

no

because nothing is 100%

and mihyang adriana still isn't the best offense

[hardy plank]

wats it in ur opinion

[meager mauve]

Isn't feng leo just not great in general? Feng kind of wants to get hit and Leo is same element so he can take some of the hits instead, which makes the entire point a little moot.

I've never used Feng Leo. I've never found a place where I'd want to use Feng over someone like Shahat, for example.

[meager mauve]

for sure. It has to be.

[hardy plank]

leo feng is fine

bc it means his passiveis much stronger

its basically the only place i use feng tbh

[fiery geode]

I was just trying to find Leo stats, you need to use at least 2 monsters to get win rate stats on swgt and feng is just the most popular mon to use with Leo

I just checked Leo shahat and it’s not much different, also below our average guild win rate

[hardy plank]

I think to the point most presets will have noticeably lower wr than they should because theyre very liable to be misused into things they really shouldnt be used into

IE bolverk

leo is a free win - but not versus everything

[fiery geode]

You can say that about anything

A lot of preset offenses like aforementioned mihyang Adriana and Julie average higher than guild average

[meager mauve]

Julie does? Really?

I would have thought Julie was lower because of Galleon missing so often.

Or because of proper Julie traps in higher ranks.

[hardy plank]

no....most guilds dont know how to julie trap for shit

ive seen enough to confidently say even in top 3 proper julie traps arent a common build

[fiery geode]

Again my point isn’t really to say one offense is better than another or to not use a specific common offense

[hardy plank]

free wins outside of specific balance mistakes (geldnir) arent really a field wide thing

[meager mauve]

No, I understand. The idea is that I shouldn't just say "I got Camilla that means I get a free win in Siege with her"

And I shouldn't just deploy Camilla into whatever because it's Camilla. I still need to make sure I'm thinking about proper deployment.

[fiery geode]

My point is that there are no free wins, and cleaves are important part of any good siege players’ offenses

People just meme a lot and make a lot of uneducated comments which may lead people to think Julie is actually joke comp or that Leo/cami are gods

But real stats show otherwise

[hardy plank]

Hmm...so something to touch on is some offenses are simpler to trap than others. Its kind of hard to fuck up leo traps for example

[meager mauve]

I am just surprised because in some of my conversations around SW communities, people have told me that it's generally a "85% offense"

[hardy plank]

julie is an offense that basically cant win vs proper traps

[meager mauve]

Because galleon has to hit def breaks

[hardy plank]

but people dont understand how to do so

julie basically wins because ppl suck at trapping it less than galleons performance

[fiery geode]

Yea you’re not understanding Julie comp

That’s why we call it Julie

And not galleon team

[hardy plank]

more accurate to say julie with bernard finisher

[fiery geode]

the strength of the team is not all Julie

Galleon and Bernard are extremely strong bruisers

It is not reliant on def breaks that much and it is also why you can use it blind even without stripper and into potential will runes

I’m checking some more random popular offenses, cami Belial hovers right around average

Oh and to give you a true comparison of an “85%” comp…. Galleon Tiana +1 currently has an 81% wr for us 😂

[hardy plank]

[fiery geode]

150 times used this season too so not just some random uncommon newb team

Damn that’s so bad lol

[hardy plank]

dare i ask who the +1s are

dont say posideon

[meager mauve]

I'm actually curious, what specifically is the wr for CP?

If that's okay to share.

[fiery geode]

90%. Bad

We don’t use pos but a lot of losses coming from similar def break reliant monsters like grogen

People just want to use lds and get punished

[meager mauve]

Thanks very much for the insights. I appreciate it.

For the record, I've made a new rule that I have to use double snipe once a WGB.

Then jx9 and Scarlet will both cry tears of joy as I use my Bethony.

And then they will shake their heads because I will still lose. XD

[fiery geode]

i understand that you may not feel confident in sniping something like an ashour or ritesh. but there are tons of much easier double snipe targets like the ones i pointed out from your previous wgb set. all 3 of these you can beat safely with green quality runes on both swift set and dd sets

• xing racuni manon you may not have considered it since you saw hp lead xing, but you don't need to snipe him. you kill the other 2 and it's super easy, i guarantee no one is stacking hp on manon. racuni has below 10k base hp.
• mihyang ophilia benedict you may have not even considered it since you probably saw spd lead and got scared. but there isn't a true speed threat here. ophilia can be on swift but if she outspeeds you the threat literally does nothing. you just snipe her first anyway. if she is on swift, no way for her to be tanky to survive bethony even on weak runes.
• leo riley dom is doable if you just use a bastet/megan on will. i guarantee you no one is building super tanky leo or dom

[vale jay]

HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I TOLD YOU THIS ISN'T TRUE YOU SILLY GOOSE

[meager mauve]

About as many times as you've told me to use Bethony

[tired hollow]

Can’t you say that those stats are perhaps slightly correlated with where they’re used? Like, at least for me, I tend to blind with the “op” stuff more often as, like you said, a lot of them are like a “idk how to hit this lemme send feng”. Whereas perhaps for Julie people (I fall into this category generally?) are more likely to hit scouted “ah this defense isn’t on a trap build and off will” and this has a higher wr

[fiery geode]

nah our guild's specialty is pretty much julieing everything, we don't care if it's scouted or not

more serious guilds than us do tend to follow what you said in terms of only julieing scouted defs

weaker guilds than us julie much less... because julie is typically only used by better players

but overall again i'm not trying to say specifically that julie is better than feng or anything

just that julie is better than most people think

and feng or leo or cami or whatever is worse than most people think

and that there is no such thing as a free win or 100% wr comp against any real def

and a good player will have both cleaves and t2 comps in their arsenal of siege comps

and that there are no good siege players that don't cleave. if you avoid cleaving you will never be good at siege. there are no exceptions to this

[tired hollow]

@meager mauve random thought- I’ve never gone 10-0 twice in a row in belligerent

You have

[tired hollow]

This hits a bit too close to home, but grogen only punishes me in wgb and not siege

[tired hollow]

I think the wild thing I heard people wanted me to unironically Julie was

1. Clara Adriana Odin
2. Sylvia brita kumar if memory serves

And both worked- I think u were source for 1 and furyn+ a few others for 2?

I really like Julie but I feel like it’s so easy to trap her

[north zenith]

I only spam Julie

[fiery geode]

i mean...

it's well over 100 recorded fights

i personally wouldn't julie sylvia brita kumar, but i wouldn't call it wild

[hardy plank]

Tbf

Most ppl don’t understand how to actually Julie trap this one

[fiery geode]

most people don't understand how to trap anything or build any good def

i'm not giving advice here to any legend contenders

[hardy plank]

shit you’re not wrong

[fiery geode]

so my advice to julie is going to be very good for everyone here listening to my advice

[supple onyx]

ppl r just too lazy to test against their trap defs

(like me)

[meager mauve]

I refuse to believe this statement from the goat.

[meager mauve]

WGB was interesting this go around. I had some defenses I was a little lost on. But I learned a lot.

[hardy plank]

[meager mauve]

1.) Honestly felt decently safe, but I should have targeted Brita first to make it safer.

[fiery geode]

Where’s the double snipe

[meager mauve]

5R. 😄

Honestly I couldn't think of any way I could double snipe on any of these other than 5R.

Because 1R there's damage reduction + Perna revive

2R I can lose the swift race easily

3R There's 2 revives

4R is Nana Byung

So I thought 5R was really the only candidate.

And honestly I think it woudl have won too. The kinki vio procced on every turn he got minus one. (I watched the replay, and it was exactly 1 turn he didn't vio proc on)

3R Honestly I built MY wrong. If I took her in with a tankier Vio build, I think this is easily winnable.

But I took her on a Tiana set because I failed to understand the basic idea that MY needs to be the healer here, not the damage dealer.

[hardy plank]

So a couple quick points to make

1. Cami is overkill here this defense sucks

2. This def can kill Fran really easily so I’d be cautious doing this given she has negative bases and herteit can just steal attack buff + a bunch of def into a vigor oneshot

4. Uh read Jessica skills

[meager mauve]

OH YEAH

That was something I didn't understand

I actually had never seen Jessica before, so I thought it meant just things like def break or atk break

I didn't realize it meant EVERYTHING

Like I said, I learned a lot this WGB set.

The herteit hit was another one. I didn't realize that his steals were permanent.

I thought that Fran would get all her stats back after he died.

[hardy plank]

Personally

1. Tractor feng +1 (ritesh/angela etc I’m not sure it matters because this defense doesnt do anything ever)
2. Cleave this probably. I don’t recall ur cleave options but you can definitely cleave this somehow
3. This defense doesn’t have a speed lead just bully it lol
4. Jessica doesn’t do anything against non cc comps so this is a pretty free bruiser given nana byung does fuck all without a scary threat in the last slot
5. Idk just use Triana

[meager mauve]

The other set.

[tired hollow]

Jayke is so brave

[hardy plank]

I would probably do
Tractor/Feng/Ritesh
sonia
Hyanes
Leo Angela cami/other water unit that doesn’t die easily
Bolv Amelia Triana

[meager mauve]

4R I was shocked. Betta survived with 1 HP and I used -dark on Lushen.

And I still could have won too!

But then at the very end Betta vio procced 3 times in a row to then cycle turns to heal again and it was over. 😦

If she hadn't, I coudl have killed her and then had Lushen S3 up again with Vigor and Vritra really low.

[tired hollow]

I wanna kahli the kinki

[meager mauve]

5R was the double snipe. I thought for sure this would be easy enough to do.

[tired hollow]

Kahli mihy

[meager mauve]

But the Tiana was on her fastest possible swift set.

Praline is on +182

Which means Tiana needed to be on +212 or higher to move before Praline. I was even running Praline lead to ensure that I would have the highest possible speed advantage.

[tired hollow]

+182 just isn’t fast enough. +210 Tiana isn’t that weird to think about, but I understand a +200 praline is hard to tune to

So I see where you’re coming from

[lapis pecan]

jx9

[Message Link](#1232589438211850330 message) to #1232589438211850330
if you make a +180 praline you will still outspeed 99% of all these hp lead defs

Req. by jaykeblakk. Quote from · Feb 5, 2025, 5:00 PM

[tired hollow]

Hp lead like ashour

Not a Tiana cleave

[meager mauve]

The idea is that HP lead means you are losing a lot of speed, so you can go slower.

At least that's how I understood it.

I can't build +200 Praline without losing huge damage on my double snipe.

[hardy plank]

Yea hp def is code for

[tired hollow]

Ashour, kumar, etc you won’t really see ppl zooming. Generally they’ll try to outtank your snipes, rather than outspeed your praline. So you go slower

[meager mauve]

This is why it was brought up. Anything above about +180 just loses.

[hardy plank]

“Defense that won’t contest you on speed”

[tired hollow]

Tiana just wants to outspeed you and kill you, and if that doesn’t happen t1 it just loses

(On defense)

In that case, it makes sense Tiana will be fast, even no spd lead

[meager mauve]

Well in my humble opinion, it was a fine gamble.

I'm up 29 speed on Tiana

[tired hollow]

Ye- +212 Tiana is pretty fast anyways lmao

[meager mauve]

+212 is max hero runes.

[tired hollow]

That’s probably topset

For this dude

[meager mauve]

I honestly don't feel like my decision was that bad.

[hardy plank]

*217

[meager mauve]

Anyway, I view this as one of those instances where you shouldn't be afraid of losing with a cleave, like jx says.

[meager mauve]

oh you're right. Woops. Thank you.

[hardy plank]

But yea I don’t think

Losing to a +212 unit is unrealistic when Tiana is probably on their top swift

[tired hollow]

Er this isn’t really the greatest argument

But I guess it’s wgb

And nobody else on their defenses is contesting spd

And bc it’s wgb they can just leave topset there

[meager mauve]

I'll say it was a dumb move on my part then. I'm willing to accept that.

Next time if there's a speed contesting unit I can't double snipe just because I'm not on top swift.

Easy enough to rectify for next time.

[tired hollow]

Idk how the light chick is built, but if u have Odin u can try Odin raoq qeb

Into nana byung

If the +1 to nana byung isn’t too tanky

[meager mauve]

I've heard that Raoq comps into nana byung are not great.

[tired hollow]

Imo it’s p good into the not so tanky +1s

[meager mauve]

Jessica is a tank.

[tired hollow]

Ah

Well not for this then

[meager mauve]

Have you read her passive?

It's nuts. She's so broken it's insane.

[tired hollow]

Something dr something debuff

(No)

[meager mauve]

She ignores all debuffs and then passes them to her target as she attacks.

[tired hollow]

Ah

[meager mauve]

She also gains damage reduction for each debuff.

[tired hollow]

I had the gist either way ur not rebuffing her with Odin but it’ll be hard for raoq to kill the revive

Just thought I’d mention it cuz it feels great into stuff like zeratu

[hardy plank]

Realistically Jessica on defense doesn’t do anything but not die

So

[rotund sail]

I sent mihyang bastet raki into that kinda odin defs that do nothing without odin

[meager mauve]

Ah Bastet would have been good. I have one but rarely use it.

[rotund sail]

How did you lose btw

Did you not kill?

[meager mauve]

Nah, I killed him, but Bastet killed MY because she was on the wrong build. I put her on a Tiana sniper set instead of a tankier vio set.

I think if I had swapped builds I end up winning this just fine.

[rotund sail]

Fair enuff

[fiery geode]

def sucks but in general belial is not good to use into teams with no aoe. you need him to die and there's no guarantee that he ever even gets hit

a lot of the others were already discussed but i want to stress that its not safe to try to 1 shot odin with just atk boosted raki

raki is not an ignore def monster

[fiery geode]

the individual monsters being swift threats or not are much more important than what the lead is

it was mentioned already but yea, tiana is a major swift threat. especially if it's a tiana on def... there's a very high chance it's someone just putting their offense as defense and it's their fastest swift set

you can afford to lose a lot of damage, there is 0 chance the tiana is some weird tanky trap

[rotund sail]

Thats what they want you to think

[tired hollow]

I see ent Tiana on defense I know for a fact it’s 2x nem will hp cd atk

[vale jay]

it's bad

do not recommend

[tired hollow]

Isn’t it hard to trap

Aside from like, a really randomly tanky zeratu with -fire

[hardy plank]

Does raoq consistently kill without a def break

[tired hollow]

If -fire hp build then no

[odd current]

Against the guilds who would even still run this def it’s prob fine against +1s w/o dr tbh. I’ve never tested it against a lushen trap so i’d check your raoq’s damage against a tanky non -fire at least.

[meager mauve]

One question about a defense I've built.

Chandra Sigrid Odin. I've built it specifically because I figured it would use runes that are unique to the monsters and not needed on offense (at the moment only 2 runes on Doin and 2 on Sigrid are shared with offense monsters, so pretty close.)

Is it reasonable to expect people to attempt to Lushen this defense? Or would most people attempt to hit it some other way?

[fiery geode]

yes people would lushen it. for you, i would not bother trying to make it anti lushen. not common enough to be worth

[meager mauve]

Ah. That's exactly how I built it just because that was my first instinct was to Lushen it. If it's not common enough then should I just build it with Odin higher damage?

[fiery geode]

you should build it because this is a good def. saying it would use runes unique to the monsters and not needed on offense does not sound right at all though

random vio bruiser runes are of course going to be valuable on offense

not to mention odin himself is a top tier offense monster

that uses a completely different set for offense vs defense

[meager mauve]

I should clarify, building them as anti-lushen doesn't use the same runes as the majority of monsters on offense. For example I have Chandra on 3 shield and Sigrid on a 4th shield.

[fiery geode]

note that you can still rune the def on the tankier side to help it survive cleaves in general

while lushening it is not common, cleaves in general might not be uncommon even at lower levels

[meager mauve]

Odin is on a build that emphasizes more health instead of more damage.

[fiery geode]

especially the cleaves we told you to avoid like things with raoq, wind raoq, etc

[meager mauve]

Okay, so would it be wise then to lose some health on Odin to gain more damage to make it stronger against bruiser teams?

[fiery geode]

triple shield is bad period

for what you need to be concerned with, still put everything on vio regardless of what you're trying to counter

[fiery geode]

need to show builds

[meager mauve]

Yeah i was just about to say, let me share the builds and then I can get a better idea of where to go.

[fiery geode]

i think a lot of other people commenting here may be confusing you with building defs to trap certain things

at everything below the very highest level of play

just ignore it

it's not worth trying to "trap" anything specific

you want generic high efficiency builds

making things tanky or slightly unusual is good, but i don't consider that to be a trap

[meager mauve]

The main reason I was building this as a Lushen trap is I kind of had the mentality of:

I don't know if I can really beat anything on a secondary defense if I don't specifically build it for a common hit.

This is my 2nd defense and my 1st defense is using the best possible runes on my account.

Which means these are, at best, running my 2nd best.

So I figured, what if I could just build it to be a Lushen trap? Then at least I'd have one place where it could succeed. Otherwise I just felt like it would lose no matter what I did and kind of be a waste of runes.

Also this is tuned to Chandra + Sigrid boost, so Odin moves immediately after Chandra S3 + Sigrid S3.

and I'm just now realizing that Odin isn't fully skilled. Woops. Better fix that.

[fiery geode]

vast majority of offenses people will use are going to be random bad bruiser comps

you just need the best vio runes on this team that you can afford. i understand you have another def you consider your best. its fine to have your 2nd best here

you need to go for 286 tick on sigrid and chandra though

odin can be 239

everything vio (or despair for chandra)

will on odin, shield on either sigrid or chandra, then the last offset on sigrid or chandra can be whatever

odin still needs to do damage. must be slot 4 cd

you can see #1336835727995961495 for some ideas

[meager mauve]

Oh thank you! I didn't even see that post.

One more question, since Odin needs to be fully skilled on defense, I'm assuming it still isn't worth attempting to fuze a Bale just to get the final skillup for him, right? (I'm short a single devilmon to finish skilling him)

[vale jay]

You can do this for some monsters by putting the needed monsters to level in the exp building btw

Can do this with Kata

For when you pull cami

[fiery geode]

if you already have all the 4* fusion components its not horrible to do it

just don't go about fusing 4* so you can fuse 5*

the essence costs to do that are huge and thats the part that makes it not worth

[vale jay]

I think it's good to fuse them if you're missing them to throw them in the exp building

[meager mauve]

OH WAIT I think I actually have 2 bales.

[rotund sail]

i just fuse when I have the 4*'s aswell

[fiery geode]

the exp costs or acquiring any base fusion 3* monster themselves are trivial

[rotund sail]

fusing 4*'s is annoying

[meager mauve]

I think this account already had bale and then I got the free one from that event a little bit ago

[fiery geode]

its really 90% essence cost

[meager mauve]

Cool. Thank you very much for the help. I'll rebuild this defense the best I can.

[meager mauve]

I was a disappointment this siege. 8-2. I have a couple of questions on some hits. The ones I lost were due to Galleon missing a defense break and taking a crappy comp into a hit.

First is this one. I Lushened here because I've got the same comp and trapping Miri Lushen requires some good runes which are hard to use.

My question is, what should I be putting on Lushen as left side arti?

I went with +water and a little +wind because I wanted to make sure Chandra died. But should I instead have just gone addl's and ATK up effect or something similar?

Or should I just do straight +water?

Second one is about a defense. I did the following:

Now I don't really think this defense is any good. There isn't a defense break and the only damage threat is Miles.

The main question I have about this is if Leo is a good pick into Miles in these kinds of situations. There are many times where Leo doesn't work (Carc Miles comes to mind). But does he work as a pick otherwise?

[hardy plank]

its fine

but use a better wind damage dealer

ur dds are slow as fuck to kill

id rather see an ethna

or something that will end the game fast

[meager mauve]

I considered Ethna but thought that Molly would make it harder for her to work because she can make Ethna glance on S2

My last question is this one:

I don't think this is any good. I honestly got extremely lucky I think.

But I was kind of at a loss as to what comps to consider into this. There's multiple cleanses, so Hyanes can get screwed over. There's multiple strips. There's a defense break that can be funneled but the Branding cannot.

[hardy plank]

its a 2 turn cooldown

[rotund sail]

vela into brita is.. brave

[meager mauve]

@vale jay here's the ping you wanted. 😄

[hardy plank]

hyanes is probably still finehere

kumar has to take a turn to cleanse

and you have a lot of stuns +reset

[meager mauve]

That's my way of saying "I made a bad choice." XD

[vale jay]

DOU7BLE SNIPE

FARM BETTER RUNE

[meager mauve]

Okay so thinking about it

Let's say I had the rune quality for this, which I very well might.

Praline does not funnel Brita

[vale jay]

dont use praline

honestly it's fine as long as one of the snipe units is wind

but

[meager mauve]

I'd need a fire booster like Kahli then, but at that point I'm not racing with advantage anymore because I'd miss speed lead.

[vale jay]

i feel like i'd want to do it speed scaling DD style if i could help it

it's not swift kumar

you're vs noobs

if its swift kumar go next

all good

unlucky

[hardy plank]

swift kumar is one of those things that usually exists in theory but not in practice

[vale jay]

ent

he got swift kumar'd.

the other day.

it was fucking crazy

[hardy plank]

[vale jay]

some random g2 warrior

swift kumar

absolute sociopath

[hardy plank]

I said usually

[vale jay]

what a fucking dickhead

[hardy plank]

for a reason

[vale jay]

no literally

i don't think

we fought one swift kumar

entiere seasopn

not one

and if we did we dodged it all the times it mattered

no kap

[rotund sail]

I've been preaching swift koomar..

[vale jay]

swift kumar is him

anyways

i think

[calm falcon]

but what about swift brita

[vale jay]

something like

let's say

[meager mauve]

Swift Brita would funnel if you run something like Kahli booster.

[vale jay]

if we were to do bethony kahli +wind scaling DD of your choice

yeah but it fucks your atb

anyways

[calm falcon]

brita can reduce atb

[vale jay]

thats insane person behavior

[calm falcon]

I lost that hit once

[vale jay]

stop simi you're making my life too hard

anything can happen

it could be

SWIFT GAPSOO

just kidding

in all seriousness

i feel like the double snipe line here

[calm falcon]

all im saying is

[vale jay]

it's not something as advisable for you specifically because you are missing

[hardy plank]

so

[lapis pecan]

simmieeee

[Message Link](#1281383011517988936 message) to #1281383011517988936
wow it was swift brita and it outsped me

Req. by simmieeee. Quote from · Feb 13, 2025, 10:54 PM

[hardy plank]

basically

[vale jay]

sonia/tirsa

[hardy plank]

theguilds who would run swift kumar there

wouldnt run that def in the first place

[vale jay]

oh

wait a second

hold on

blast from the past

!!!

let me unit check

WE'RE COOKING

WE CAN DOUBLE SNIPE THIS CHAT

obb

[hardy plank]

swift kumar clicks s1

frfr

[vale jay]

odin -> kumar
bethony -> gapsoo

swift kumar happens we go next

its all good guys

unlucky

[rotund sail]

yea

if we get swift kumar'd

so be it

[vale jay]

sometimes

you just get swift kumar'd

when it happens

it's like

well what can you do really

but yeah i would odin bastet bethony this first @meager mauve

oh

if you're feeling a bit frisky

you could be a brave warrior and LCL it

i would do both of those before i would feng it

i would not do either

but if i did

i would LCL it

like jx9 comes out of my mirror after i say his name 5 times

he has a gun

and says

"Hit this defense now, or die"

and i have two options

feng or LCL

i'm sending LCL

[meager mauve]

Okay so the Odin into Fire I've already attempted multiple times and it doesn't work.

But that's rune quality issue.

[lapis pecan]

scarlet_roses

[Message Link](#1232589438211850330 message) to #1232589438211850330
FARM BETTER RUNE

Req. by scarlet_roses. Quote from · Mar 5, 2025, 12:45 AM

[rotund sail]

huh

you dont do vio odin, do you ?

[fiery geode]

one of these days

do you want to stream your account or have me hop on it

i want to figure out what's going on with your inability to build reasonable cleave units

[vale jay]

hold on i will check just to make sure

alright i'm on jayke's account right now

i just tested, it does allow me to enter GBAH

[north zenith]

aint no way

[rotund sail]

nah haha

[vale jay]

but there are two unbuilt birds

which jayke will have to explain...

https://imgur.com/fh7n4gp

[rotund sail]

you can do that on my account tho!

this thursday

[calm falcon]

I see a minimum of three unruned birds

[rotund sail]

[fiery geode]

that's like the opposite of jayke account...

[vale jay]

that would probably actually be very educational for a lot of people honestly though jx

[north zenith]

go through his swift runes by score

[rotund sail]

im just looking for people to do my tourney hits, i need to ask Weenie now

since syndicate didnt make it..

[vale jay]

yw jayke

https://imgur.com/XLyADRQ

@meager mauve

[rotund sail]

did you reapp that

[vale jay]

yes

[rotund sail]

or did you just find it

[vale jay]

i just reapped that for him

[rotund sail]

op

[vale jay]

no more excuses time to cleave my friend.

[north zenith]

[calm falcon]

sacklet at it again

[north zenith]

scarlet log into my acc rn and reapp my runes too

I need a quad speed on 1 2 3 4 and 5

[vale jay]

anyways i'm done derailing this thread

[meager mauve]

The runes are on other units that I use for Mon subjugation

Wind Blacksmith has Teon's

[vale jay]

hello

jayke

don't worry about the

[meager mauve]

Deborah has Konas

[vale jay]

(1% off) max legend swift rune i just got you

just ignore that part

no big deal

[meager mauve]

GIVE ME A SEC OKAY I HAVE A MILLION PEOPLE

TALKING TO ME

[vale jay]

yes

valid

take your time

[tiny orchid]

gg scarlet just used their luck for the year

[hardy plank]

wtf

[meager mauve]

Okay so you know how every reapp you've done has basically just been in 2 reapps

teach me your ways

[vale jay]

i will farm giants the rest of my life and never find a rune that looks that good

[meager mauve]

Honestly I would be okay with any of those options. I'm more than happy to even just record my process to build them and walk through exactly what I'm doing.

And then post the video. Whatever is easiest. I really do need help understanding how to build cleaves better.

[hardy plank]

have me farm ur giants and youll get 2 in the same day

[rotund sail]

do you have grinds for it ?

[meager mauve]

I am almost positive I do.

I haven't ground any swift runes in a while because I've been farming artis + DBAH

[vale jay]

no you don't

next month

[vale jay]

3 weeks until im not a corpse

[meager mauve]

WGB hits:

1.) I thought this comp was kind of funny. Chandra and FY would counterattack whenever any of them would hit AoE attacks that hit FY and Tetra. Tetra also stopped permanent provokes.

2.) Swift Nora outsped me. 😦

3.) Pretty easy hit.

4.) After Leo makes Xiana slow and everyone is on -dark, this defense isn't that scary. Also had Riley to cleanse.

5.) This took longer than expected because I forgot yet again that you need some way for Belial to die in order for a Belial comp to work. However, it eventually did work out. Chacha and Rina healed themselves enough to where Belial was picked by Theo and then it was a pretty easy win from there.

1.) I kind of had to Jaara this. I don't know how to handle Shazam. I feel like he's just too good of a unit for me to beat without some other LD5.

2.) This double snipe worked pretty well. I was a little surprised actually. I expected -dark and they weren't.

3.) I didn't have destroy so this was a loss. I will confess, only Tetra is built well though. I just kind of assumed "hey all dark and one light tank makes this easy." I need to be more careful next time.

4.) This Perna REALLY wanted to win. Vio procced often and always hit Windy when Sigrid S3'd. Still managed to pull it off.

5.) I am not familiar enough with Leo cleaves to understand how they work. They all moved before I did. Was I just outsped, or is there a particular way in which Leo comps make it so that my monsters cannot move first? Leo didn't land ATB pushback.

[calm falcon]

youre aware of the 15% from eleanor right

also

[sleek wigeon]

Lucifer (Light Demon)

Wikia

3. Red Battlefield (Passive)

The Attack Bar of all allies will be increased by the proportion to the damage dealt, and the damage they deal on enemies will be increased by 50% at the most whenever all enemies and allies on the battlefield receive damage. [Automatic Effect]

Pos. Effects

Increase ATB

provided by SWARFARM

[meager mauve]

Lucifer moved last.

[calm falcon]

yeah leos first hit boosts the entire team

because of this passive

[meager mauve]

oh I thought that meant JUST lucifer's damage

[calm falcon]

[meager mauve]

Well that's lame.

[meager mauve]

Luck is also a skill.

[hardy plank]

[tired hollow]

Leocifer works where Leo has to do liek, 5k damage or something and then u get enough boost to make everyone move

[calm falcon]

you can bypass it by simply boosting MORE through nem

[meager mauve]

I had no idea that's how that worked. The wording made me think it was JUST lucifer's damage

[hardy plank]

Jayke lost to leocifer on wgb

yea thats how that offense works

[calm falcon]

so double nem will water booster (megan)

[tired hollow]

The way you counter it is by using 2x nem will Megan

With lushe

[meager mauve]

So I went "oh easy leo moves first and then I outspeed everything so gg"

[hardy plank]

you can also just run a unit with enough def for leo to get damage checked

[meager mauve]

Well now I know! Learning opportunities!

[hardy plank]

oke so 2 is alr covered

[hardy plank]

okeydoke so 2 we alr covered how eleanor works
3. Hyanes
4. Yea fine
5. aside from the luci issue can ur lushen reliably kill a zerath lol

with the right light tank you can also just blow up craka and press auto

[meager mauve]

Okay I'm terrified to use Hyanes into gapsoo.

One vio proc and he can screw me over entirely.

[vale jay]

No it's not enough

It's still safe into gapsoo

Did you finish skilling Hyanes yet

[meager mauve]

The last monsters are sitting in the little parks

[vale jay]

When I looked they were empty??

[meager mauve]

I put them in this morning you silly goose

[rotund sail]

its hard for me to not hate that offense

idk why

[meager mauve]

There are many of my offenses to hate

Are you referring to Hyanes?

[fiery geode]

I used to hate it, but I can’t argue with stats and data

[rotund sail]

same

after i saw it having like a 97% wr with 300 hits or something

i runed it up and i will use it until i lose

[vale jay]

CC teams are good

People are stuck in the past

[rotund sail]

im the only one in my guild using it

but everytime I click "play" im praying a bit

[tired hollow]

What happened

To light homie

[rotund sail]

i got a 2nd adriana

[hardy plank]

This is how I felt about ICE btw

I hate it it’s stupid it gets sacked so easily why does it never lose

[tired hollow]

Same- I was telling scarlet I thought light homie might be better for me and she dropped the 97wr stat on my head and I built it properly

[vale jay]

The theory behind it doesn't even matter

[tired hollow]

[vale jay]

All that matters is if you win

97.75

Chance

[rotund sail]

imo it doesnt matter if you use either light or dark

both are great

[vale jay]

To pushback/freeze

One of the two

[hardy plank]

Also reset

[tired hollow]

What’s ice?

[vale jay]

It's not a 97.75% offense, that is just the odds of that happening, and you have a 97.75% chance to strip one monster

[tired hollow]

Iunu something?

[rotund sail]

icaru chilling elucia

iirc

[tired hollow]

Ah

[tired hollow]

I took mine into mi ying last siege too

Got so scared

But it never moved

[rotund sail]

oh yea

i was like

"oh i forgor that part"

it was wgb so its w.e

[fiery geode]

uhh i dunno about that

ICE has a way below average win rate

[rotund sail]

but when I runed it up i threw it into a full will'd def for a good amount of time

and i didnt lose once

[fiery geode]

you can argue that people aren't building or using it right

and i used to feel that way too

but at this point

[hardy plank]

Back during Monte season it was like 98 wr

[fiery geode]

i consider that part of the build itself

[tired hollow]

What’s the highest wr comp

With like, 100+ sample size

[hardy plank]

I don’t know what people are using it into now

[fiery geode]

hyanes homu verad

[tired hollow]

Really?

[fiery geode]

nothing. the stats are from years ago in monte period

[rotund sail]

I used that off in voicechat and my guildies were questioning me

they dont really believe in it either

[tired hollow]

I thought people were double reviving against Monte

[rotund sail]

not sure if eu just hates it

[hardy plank]

Some did

[tired hollow]

That’s what klo was telling me?

With like, shihwa or something. Thought it was weird at the time

[hardy plank]

Some guilds did hwadam

Some did Elucia shihwa

[rotund sail]

yea

[hardy plank]

Some just spammed covenant

[tired hollow]

Oh on hwadam, is that Ethna hwadam +1 actually good into Odin?

[hardy plank]

Oh Hwadam was for Monte

It wasn’t very good was like a 90 wr off

But standards weren’t as high then

Iirc it was Hwadam Triana carc

[vale jay]

I used it a few times!

Ignore the unrelated hit

[fiery geode]

@meager mauve are we doing siege together today

[rotund sail]

content in 20 minutes ß!

[meager mauve]

Yeah. I've got today as a comp day so definitely.

[fiery geode]

i have a quick meeting right when siege starts but i can do it in like 30 minutes

[meager mauve]

No problem. I am still finishing up a few things with this speed tuner and I need to adjust a few runes before Siege starts anyway.

[fiery geode]

i want to adjust your runes so

[rotund sail]

you needa start abusing decks aswell!

[fiery geode]

so basically tl;dr

• your account has good runes and monsters and can easily do well in G3 siege
• number 1 area to work on is r5. after that, artifacts. don't touch dragons for the next 3 years. can do a mix of giants and necro for rune farming once you've grinded all runes that you are currently using
• while you are lacking giants, you do have enough right now to put together at least 1 solid double snipe team. it should be used every siege and wgb. since you have multiple bethonies, once you get more pralines you can do it multiple times
• optimizers are bad. eventually you can use optimizers again, but you need to be able to rune by hand and understand your own account first. you can improve all your teams a ton by just shifting around existing runes

[meager mauve]

This is basically exactly what I took away from it. But also I realized that my FY needs more HP. That was another big one.

Thanks again. That was incredibly helpful and very much worth the time you took. Very much appreciated.

[fiery geode]

np

the needing more hp thing was across the board for a lot of your monsters, not just feng

kunite feng tetra racuni aaliyah vela practically every tanky support monster you had built could have traded def for more hp

sometimes its tempting to stack defs on def scaling monsters, but survivability is still the most important thing

[rotund sail]

would you recommend decks to jayke or is it too much

[fiery geode]

Too much for now

[rotund sail]

fair

[fiery geode]

the goal for people at this level who aren't trying to compete at the top is to not have to swap that much if possible

decks makes swapping easy but it's still swapping

[rotund sail]

yea that makes sense

[tired hollow]

Can u do this for me next

[meager mauve]

WGB hits:

4R Louise shield was so large that Bolverk couldn't heal Windy enough to keep him from dying.

5R I was really attempting to force a place to use double snipe, and the only place I felt comfortable was either here or 2R. I liked using it here more because I figured I had a chance to survive the Savannah with Kahli and finish the fight off. Didn't work out that way.

2R I thought would work pretty well as long as I killed Iris. The series of events was kind of crazy. Basically ended with Nana and Iunu dead with Laika in a 1v2 against Seara and Raoq. I thought long and hard about this, and realized that Raoq could technically kill Laika, while Seara could not. I opted to S2 the Raoq, and then Seara could never kill Laika.

That leads to a question. Does a bomb go through Laika passive damage?

5R is a ?read1 moment on Ariana. Not really sure what I would take into this comp though. I can't hit with Lushen. I can't hit with Julie.

It feels like I should be able to just cleave though.

Overall I view this as limit testing double snipes in various situations. I'm learning what can or can't work since I have barely used the comp in the first place.

[tiny orchid]

ur not rlly supposed to double snipe nana comps but i think u learned from that

i assume what happened is that u double sniped rakan twice after praline buff

nana moves, def breaks your team, sav 1shots either praline or bethony and nana gains +1 to revive

and now youre screwed

[autumn crystal]

Double snipe 1.4 and jaara 1.5? Leave Theo for last and pray he doesn’t do Theo things

[meager mauve]

Hmmm.... this could work. Problem would just be that Clara could outspeed Praline.

But that's probably my best option.

[meager mauve]

Sniped Nana, then sniped Rakan. Hoping Praline could take a turn to kill Nana.

Nana def broke and then yeah everyone died.

[autumn crystal]

Clara seems like 3rd best swift option out of those 5 defs to me. If that’s the swift mon, bad luck

[fiery geode]

no

at low levels clara is more likely than not to be swift

it's an even race

if you're confident in your swift you can do it but jayke is not

never praline clara (for you)

chandra is actually the better double snipe target

despite chandra having a bigger spd advantage than even clara

no one at this level is putting their fastest swift set on chandra

should have just used feng vela aaliyah on 1-5

oh and when you're double sniping byung, save him for last and use federica as one of your snipers

you didn't need to limit test double snipe here

don't double snipe revivers

even odin alone should deter you from double sniping, much less anything about ariana

the only case where you see people double sniping odin is when they are doing mihyang adriana sonia/rigna

and this is because mihyang adriana teams are op and can you can 3v2 what's left

you cannot do praline into odin

praline is much weaker and you cannot safely 3v2 most things. in fact you should even be scared of 3v1ing a lot of things, like cami, byung, theo etc.

that's why i try to make such a big point of choosing your buffer and dds wisely for double snipe comps to be able to safely 3v1, such as having your buffer tank the remaing monster, using federica/claire vs byung ,etc

[meager mauve]

This is a good point. I did not consider this but you are right. No one puts their best swift on Chandra at this level. They'll put it all on Clara or another monster that they think needs it.

[fiery geode]

on the second set, r 1, 3, 4 are all better double snipe targets

also while i know i made a big deal out of ?doublesnipe

there are always going to be exceptions if you are willing to consider specific monsters and situations

in particular here, it's worth taking the risk of using bethony on brita

bethony dmg is just very high, and at this level, people aren't building brita to be tanky traps

just like how swift chandra can outspeed you but people aren't going to build swift chandra here, a tanky brita can tank a bethony but people aren't going to build tanky brita here

[meager mauve]

Thinking about it now, I don't think I've ever seen a tanky brita to be honest.