Jayke Siege/WGB Thread

[hardy plank]

You can just run other stuff there

[meager mauve]

Would Raki work in this instance?

I had thought about her too but I don't know how she's supposed to be runed, and I kind of needed to hit fast.

[hardy plank]

Raki would be good there yea

6 tick vio destroy with some accuracy

[meager mauve]

ATK/CD/ATK if I can manage it, or SPD/CD/ATK if not, I imagine.

[hardy plank]

Just spam s2 to eat down their max hp and get s3 win when opportune

Yea

You can use a hp slot if you need to have some insurance against wayward Nigong s2s

[meager mauve]

Thanks. That's great.

[atomic mirage]

Rm got swgt now?

[vale jay]

Can we keep this stuff in #general-sw

[meager mauve]

1.) Free win.

2.) Seemed like Lushen was a good bet here. Higher speed lead, higher base speed, just go +dark on Lushen and it feels pretty easy.

3.) Gemini did not defense break anyone. Poor RNG. 😦

4.) Honestly just picked this and threw it in because it seemed pretty difficult to lose.

5.) This could have been 2 mon. Just Rina + Belial is fine. Took a little bit to finish because I needed to kill Perna with S1 and then vio proc into S2 with Belial, but it worked.

6.) Free win.

7.) Once again, Gemini did not def break a single monster. 😦

8.) Again just 2 mon this Rina Belial.

9.) Used tech here that I have been asked not to share. Super safe.

10.) Honestly I hate using my double snipes right now because I have 0 confidence in my snipers to kill whatever I aim them at. Manon is an exception because everyone builds her wrong. Louise survived the Kahli nuke, but we won because Praline is tanky and then we had Kahli S3 to protect from Tesa while we waited on Cov to kill them all.

[fiery geode]

3. not safe regardless because of threat of iris rev despair when you attack with gemini

5. dont think this is as safe as you think it was. you probably rune gapped

perna can definitely kill windy pretty fast when you dont have any support

[meager mauve]

Ah crud! I always forget she can be built like this. I'm in the habit of assuming everything is Vio.

[fiery geode]

rina is really bad support considering rina can be stunned

need cami here to be more reasonable

[meager mauve]

She did. But I didn't think she'd ever kill Rina, and she didn't.

[fiery geode]

you're still overestimating element advantage

not crazy for perna to kill rina as well once zen def breaks her

belial has to kill chandra first

this gives perna + zen plenty of time

to kill both windy and rina

[meager mauve]

Even though Rina would get shield from perna crits?

I felt like it was basically a no-kill situation with Rina. Even if def broken, the only way that Rina dies is if Perna doesn't crit multiple times in a row after she's def broken.

[fiery geode]

thats why i said probably a weak perna rune gap situation

it can also hurt a lot of zen lines up his s3 where he removes shield and def breaks rina

not saying this is bad

just that it's not foolproof and personally i wouldn't use it unless i had cami

7. this is pretty much exact same thing as the other one

juno most common build is also despair rev

if juno revs against gemini attack

she will gain atb and cut

and can aoe stun you

[meager mauve]

Ah now this I didn't know. I thought she was built on Vio most commonly.

[fiery geode]

8. another case where i feel like you can pick better +2 to use with belial

i would prefer juno over nigong

nora can mess you up really badly

[meager mauve]

Yet again my lack of Cami makes this less safe, it seems.

[fiery geode]

juno rina is great here if you dont have cami

[hardy plank]

adding on for a second

chandra is deceptively good vs belial comps

between hugging the annoying unit, and s2 making him surprisingly good at spawn camping belial

he can buy enough time for scary units to burn down ur cami/rina

[vale jay]

Why aren't you using Bethony in 10R?

[vale jay]

I'm gonna clarify this for jayke because I feel this is important

This is absolutely true but there's two things
First of all this doesn't apply unless the last unit is actually a threat to Camilla/rina (people make bad defenses that lose to cami/rina belial often)
For example if it was Chandra (??) Bella, some threatening LD right, you can absolutely lose this with the extra time that Chandra buys
If it's some mid/shitty LD (say, thebae for example) it's not gonna do anything
Secondly you can still opt to freeze the unit that is hugged with cami and it can even help you. If you have any debuffs you can just hit the hugged unit and Chandra will cleanse you (this is so stupid)
I still usually freeze the threatening unit even if they are hugged with cami since you can't be stunned or anything by Chandra (his auto crit causes him to always cleanse Camilla)
This is for the future when you pull cami
In the mean time keep in mind that rina belial, don't overestimate it, Chandra zen Perna can absolutely beat rina belial and it's not even that hard, shadow tie is cracked and Chandra zen together are seriously strong

For 8R you have no cleanse. Like jx said Juno is a LOT better here.

[meager mauve]

I need to rework my Bethony. Most of the time that I've used her she's failed to kill what she goes after unless it's super squishy.

[vale jay]

Build issue

She is the best 4* snipe unit in the game

[meager mauve]

Just pulled a dupe Oliver. I know he's pretty much only used in RTA, which means you only need one copy. I'm making the assumption that I can feed him, but I want to make sure I'm not crazy.

[hardy plank]

You can yes

[meager mauve]

First wgb hits today.

1.) I like Tesa into Cami, and Racuni cleanse helps with cc and dots. Nora->cami->byung

2.) Standard.

3.) Bethony -> Nix Cov -> Juno, 3v1 Brita.

4.) I wanted to test to see if Bolverk S3 procs Dark Pony Passive. It doesnt. This comp can lose I think. But it seemed pretty safe. Made sure to constantly try to S1 ashour with Amelia to help delay with freezes.

5.) I realize XZ has a damage reduction passive, but I thought this could work anyway. Cha Cha on full revenge, Copper +wind damage, Imesety and ChaCha on -light. Don't use Copper S2 until Kinki is all that remains.

Chacha gets rev procs on both Kinki and Adriana, and she can cleanse herself if needed. Worked out just fine.

[vale jay]

stop abusing op counters (2)... in all seriousness all of these are ok but i feel like racuni is just straight up worse 1R over juno

I do feel like 5R there's a better solution. it seems pretty reasonable for xing to be -wind here.

but win is win

don't underestimate xing zhe's tankiness

[meager mauve]

AAAAGGGHHH JUNO! I knew I was missing a really easy counter. Thank you.

[vale jay]

a lot of the time juno is better than racuni, especially into the funny totem lady

just poke the funny totem lady and make her heal you

[meager mauve]

I thought so too, but I also thought if I went +wind to cancel it out + focused him with everything I could kill him regardless. Adriana heals are pretty low.

[vale jay]

she always uses s4 if her totem is stacked

[sleek wigeon]

Xing Zhe (Wind Monkey King)

Wikia

1. Monkey Wand

Attacks with the Monkey Wand and stuns the enemy for 1 turn with a 35% chance.

Levels

Damage +5%
Damage +10%
Damage +10%
Effect Rate +15%

Multiplier

4.0*{ATK}

2. Lightning Monkey Wand

Attacks and decreases the Defense for 2 turns with a 75% chance and recovers your Attack Bar by 50%. (Reusable in 3 turns)

Levels

Damage +10%
Effect Rate +10%
Damage +10%
Effect Rate +15%
Cooltime Turn -1

Multiplier

7.2*{ATK}

3. Stone Monkey (Passive)

Decreases the incoming damage by 35% and counterattacks with a 35% chance when an ally is attacked. When counterattacking with the [Stone Monkey] effect, the harmful effect activation rate increases by 50% and removes 1 beneficial effect from the target. [Automatic Effect]

provided by SWARFARM

[vale jay]

i would like you to read

the first sentence

how much %?

[meager mauve]

35.00

[vale jay]

-wind with 35 you don't even have to hard commit

like copper hurts i agree but you are underestimating xing

if you wanna be cute i think chandra jaara is probably free

[meager mauve]

That's fair.

[vale jay]

chandra draco jaara mayhaps

but anyways lets not overcomplicate

W is a W

[meager mauve]

I got to use the funny Entrei tech. I'm happy. Hahaha

[vale jay]

he would not use it here

he will disown me for having my disciple use it here

look away ent

ent would say

"Don't try to snipe units with damage reduction passives"

[meager mauve]

No, I used it of my own volition. Not your recommendation.

[meager mauve]

Yes. Very true...

[meager mauve]

Second wgb rounds

1.) Jaara seemed good here to avoid all passives. Could also bruiser with a fire tank because only 1 def break.

2.) Tech. I am not sure how to safely bruiser this though.

3.) Honestly just had to gamble. This is a lot like sylvia elsha kumar. Tough for me to solve so I hoped for the best with Julie and put her on +light to hopefully kill Elsha.

4.) I thought about this one for a while, realizing Swift Mookwol was probably the play. I couldn't find a way to race it and then I realized Carc is the only def breaker. This turned into a draw because I forgot Tractor isn't built on Vio and Cami was healing to full health every turn, so I was never killing her even on Destroy.

5.) Used the funny tech again. This time on a comp that it is built for.

[atomic mirage]

how did you expect to kill the cami

[hardy plank]

Get the sign

[meager mauve]

I thought with enough destroy + vio procs.

[hardy plank]

With good adds you probably can tbh

[atomic mirage]

not my words

[meager mauve]

Hey she was right. I did and look at the results.

[wild dune]

holy based sigrid jaara off

[atomic mirage]

Kind of a waste caant u run 2 dif ld5 cleave

[fiery geode]

is it a waste? sigrid isn't amazing

and honestly based on looking at results jaara isn't great either

i thought r4 looks fine. how did it become a draw? you should have destroy on both tractor and windy

maybe you got rune gapped or unlucky

[meager mauve]

Tractor was built very poorly. I forgot to build him properly. Not on destroy and not on vio. Definitely the Tractor build was the issue.

[meager mauve]

I've got a bit of a weird question involving rune depth.

Essentially I need to rebuild my double snipe teams. They aren't good. They can't kill anything and even my Bethony is failing to finish off something as simple as a Chandra with no Shield runes.

However, my current rune depth means that I can't necessarily build them and keep the runes stuck on them. Is it worth it to build the teams with runes from other monsters to use the 1 or 2 times that I use them and then put them back?

Or is that a waste of resources, and should I just ignore double snipe teams for now and worry about it after I've farmed better runes?

[hardy plank]

Uh can you rune swap?

[atomic mirage]

Also what do your artifacts look like

I bet it's damage more hp and like 8% on element

[calm falcon]

can we not
this is a help thread

[meager mauve]

I'll send the artis in a second.

[meager mauve]

Yeah I can rune swap I think, but I'm not entirely sure how easy it will be for me to get the damage I need while still meeting the reqs to be tuned to my topset. I'd need to do some SWOP digging for that.

[meager mauve]

As for artis, I will admit they are lacking quite a bit. Here's my best +water Bethony arti:

(on vero because I just picked the first one in the list for toa)

[hardy plank]

Hmm so I’m not a double snipe player so take this with a grain of salt

[meager mauve]

Or here's the best +fire I've got for Bethony:

[hardy plank]

But in order for any sort of snipe/cleave hit to even remotely work it needs to be clearing ~80k+ raw damage

Anything less is trappable by basically anything with non shit bases

[meager mauve]

This is what I've heard and been told by a few people. My snipers can hit maybe 65-70k on a good day.

[calm falcon]

im sure you know this jayke but converting a property on an arti is pretty big

dmg wise

[hardy plank]

It depends on the unit

Monte for example dies to anything above about…. 70k for example

(Assuming there’s no multi shield units)

[meager mauve]

At the moment I'm more worried about attempting to get better artis with higher +ele since I don't have great ones.

[hardy plank]

(This is assuming still 5 tick)

[meager mauve]

The other issue I run into with double snipers is tuning them to Praline while still maintaining insane damage. That's really tough for me to do.

I feel like I can either tune to my topset or get them to higher damage but tuned to 2nd or 3rd set instead. I don't feel like it is possible to get both topset and high damage output.

[atomic mirage]

I woudn't feel confident about sending those snipes

[meager mauve]

Now you know why I keep getting USE BETHONY NERD every WGB

[atomic mirage]

[finite terrace]

outta curiosity, whats the threshold for a lushen card to hit to be safe to not get trapped?

if there is one

[meager mauve]

WGB hits. A lot of these might just be rune gaps, as I changed to a different guild that is G1 WGB, so the hits are much easier.

1.) Used tech here that worked just fine.

2.) I like Jaara's ability to prevent res from taranys and snipe Tesa. Praha can't 1v3.

3.) I thought about this for a while and thought this could work just fine. Rina should be able to tank Savannah, and Kunite could tank Moore and Rakan. I thought this was actually pretty clever, but I could just be rune gapping.

4.) Treated this like Carc/Miles/Elad. Definitely could have lost because Angela is different from Elad. I'd probably choose a different offense next time. This one took forever and Miles vio procced a bunch to kill Laika twice.

5.) I thought this was a good comp. Everyone can cleanse the beneficial effects prevention, and Juno will heal a lot because she will be def broken + provoked by Nora.

6.) Seemed like an easy Dozer/Copper candidate. I ended up sniping Minato -> Tesa. I think that's just a rune gap though.

7.) Just snipe pajamas to prevent the res and then kill whoever is left.

8.) Used tech here. Worked alright but it did get a bit dicey.

9.) Honestly this went exactly like I expected. Both Nicki and CP survived, but neither one did enough damage to kill anything after they lived. I think this was also a rune gap, as expecting the two not to kill anything is too optimistic.

10.) I thought this comp worked fine, though if Ashour is on destroy I probably lose this destroy battle. The problem is that I don't have a great way to deal with Angela without oblivion. This is perhaps a double snipe, but I don't think they can 3v1 Camilla safely.

[fiery geode]

3. not bad but i would be a bit concerned about lack of sustain. rina can get despair stunned

the better way to deal with this def using a similar concept as your offense is yeonhwa + tetra + tractor/cami

4. you can snipe this with khmun kona taru/shren

it doesn't matter if miles outspeeds you, he'll just hit khmun

snipe carc and then kona tanks angela, khmun tanks miles forever

5. i would be a bit concerned and fran getting 100-0'ed

maxi also has heal block. can't rely on juno healing everyone

10. you can 1v3 camilla safely if you use other boosters thats not praline

for example a colleen or hongyeon

or if you use water like bastet/megan, then make sure you have a wind sniper and once again you're safe

but its fine the comp you used is good

[autumn crystal]

does eleni have enough damage here?

[fiery geode]

depends on your runes. in order to really trap any double snipe you have to commit pretty hard to it. if you're playing at the correct level then there's no way any normal build is going to survive a properly runed double snipe. no one in lower ranks is going to be trying to trap a double snipe

especially when you see a unit like angela, who sucks on def. no good player that could potentially want to rune an angela super tanky is going to use an angela on def

[tired hollow]

how high speed do you like your double snipe to be to make sure you outspeed non spd leads, but not too fast so that you lose too much damage? I find that when I try to tune to topset praline with a cov, for example, I lose to kumar tanking my cov fairly often

Just as an example

The cov has to be +180 or +190 or something ridiculous, and I just lose way too much damage trying to tune it

Same with fire kass, but for speed awakens like bethony I never really have problems

[fiery geode]

yea i understand this is where the experience comes in and you don't need to have your snipers tuned to actual topset when you face bruiser defs

that have no speed threat

i dont like giving specific numbers but

i think if you're in the realm of 10-20 spd above 286 tick for your booster

that's fine

so for example if you're facing like kumar brita gapsoo

+190 praline with atk lead sounds good to me

[tired hollow]

[meager mauve]

More WGB hits.

1.) This was pretty easy. I changed up Laika's build a bit to make the destroy happen faster.

2.) Honestly I rune gapped this one. I got extremely lucky. I completely forgot about Harmonia's health swap. Much better to to a double snipe here instead. Very bad.

3.) Racing at an advantage. I figured I could probably beat a Bastet. Worked just fine.

4.) Just went +dark on Lushen and then 3v1'd Ophilia.

5.) I thought Belial here could work fine. Only def break is on XZ.

6.) I figured I had a good shot to race this because Tiana has such low base speed. She moved first, but she did not S3, which means I'm just skilled. (Honestly need to stop running this into speed leads)

7.) Kind of the same idea as 5. Only def break is on XZ.

8.) Miri Lushen seems great with +light to kill Hwadam.

9.) Bolverk seemed okay. While these weren't built properly, I think this comp still has a good chance to survive. I went Valantis first.

10.) I love Jaara into Laika. However, I was extremely lucky. I completely spaced that while Jaara won't activate FY passive, Gemini + Sigrid could. However, FY was slow enough that even after his passive activated twice, he still didnt' move before Jaara. I think next time I will consider a double snipe comp.

[hardy plank]

1-1 Sure
1-2 Use rina Triana wind bruiser on destroy (logan/dominic)
1-3 Youre at a pretty slim race id be cautious doing this
1-4 Sure why not. You can also double snipe this
1-5 Sure

2-1 Uh I wouldnt recommend racing tiana here. Do not use this into defenses with speed leads
2-2 sure
2-3 Sure
2-4 Do you have juno? Juno over windy is probably safer. While its unlikely a damage valantis could make you miserable
2-5 You can also use Dozer here

[fiery geode]

2-4 even if you don't have juno there's so many better options to just bruiser this rather than bolv amelia. for example vero

you can literally 2v3 auto with just pick 2 from juno vero tetra racuni cami

[vale jay]

6R just Julie

[meager mauve]

I honestly could not tell you how I missed that. It's just a

embarrassing.

[vale jay]

Tiana is slow

You should just Julie her

Sacking is also a skill

[meager mauve]

Wait until you see my siege hits and I explain one of them. I am basically the most skilled on the planet next to Ent, who apparently just sacks every day.

My apologies for the crappy edit with the lines. This is the best I can do though.

1.) Got this one from a friend. Worked pretty well, though requires some careful piloting because you need to keep immunity up as long as you can.

2.) This was just stupid. Honestly I had a baby in my lap, I saw this defense, thought for some stupid reason "Oh I can just run Driller and win" and then I couldn't.

3.) This seemed fine since I'm stacking buffs. Go for Celia first to get rid of the CC and it turned out okay.

4.) Chandra first, then Shazam, then Byung. Wasn't too bad.

[vale jay]

5R you can get swift chandra'd

[meager mauve]

5.) I had knowledge that it was not swift Chandra, so I went for it. Still got outsped.

[vale jay]

Refer to "do not use this into defense with speed lead"

[meager mauve]

Verad also died.

And then Hyanes died.

[vale jay]

[meager mauve]

And then Chandra killed Dhomie

AND THEN DHOMIE CAME BACK AND KILLED CHANDRA IN HER 2ND LIFE

I prefer to call this a "well planned and executed win"

Anyway, lesson learned. Even with knowledge, no speed leads. That's sily.

6.) This one I tested over and over and over. If this defense is properly built, I do not think this offense can beat it the way that I have it built now. However it worked fine as a cook I came up with on the fly. I think my guildmates also used it and ended up winning every time with it too. In my tests, oblivion on Carc basically wins you the fight.

Also no one his building this defense to the stats I'd expect, so the counter is working fine at the moment.

[atomic mirage]

4 looks like u can lose. Why would u pick 0 clense for +2 on the belial team?

[atomic mirage]

6. There’s no guarantee eshir doesnt s3 and skill order goes carc then bayek. U’d get fked by 1 tap carc proc

[meager mauve]

Believe me, I tested this an insane amount. No joke, probably 50+ runs into CD Eshir. That happened twice out of those 50 runs. And tesa never died because of passive.

Also he has to vio proc. And he has to land def break on 100 res tesa

And then he has to crit.

It's a loss con, but really tough to make happen.

[atomic mirage]

s3 from eshir would he random

Then carc targers lowest hp

[meager mauve]

Eshir has to S3 Tesa, then Carc has to stance and break tesa. Then he has to vio proc. Then if he didnt def break the first time the 2nd time he must. Then he has to crit.

[atomic mirage]

U do u man

[meager mauve]

If you aren't here to offer counterpoints and just want to laugh at me, then that isn't what I am using this thread for.

[atomic mirage]

.

Again

Its not safe

Because ur assuming turn order and correct skills/AI

[meager mauve]

If those exact turns and that order don't happen, you win because of oblivioned carc.

[atomic mirage]

Yes

[atomic mirage]

I would worry about this more tho

Waste of op offense if you can't even push the win rate as high as possible

[meager mauve]

Hmmm... Are you referring to Chandra S1 and Shazam S1 stuns?

[atomic mirage]

Shazam s1 def breaks

That def i think should be built triple destroy high cdmg and swift chandra

Ur team is super sus imo

[meager mauve]

That's fair. They were triple destroy. And shazam did def break Rina a few times.

Rina didn't get much health destroyed though.

[atomic mirage]

If it works

I guess so

[meager mauve]

So I see your point. I think those builds are probably a little optimistic for this guild though.

[atomic mirage]

mmm

[meager mauve]

But that's fair. The def break + a strip could result in a significant destroy.

[atomic mirage]

Id riley + cami tho

Or riley rina

[meager mauve]

No cami.

I could have gone riley rina. That'a a better +1 for sure.

[atomic mirage]

I dont see nigong adding much value there

[meager mauve]

Honestly I meant to just leave it as Rina Belial.

[atomic mirage]

His shit get striped anw

[meager mauve]

Since I figured Rina could just live forever.

[atomic mirage]

Doubt

Rina just funny against non def break

Can still go 6ft under again proper builds

[meager mauve]

That's fair. I do not think about "proper builds" as much as I should. Thank you.

[atomic mirage]

Again. All it takes is procs from byung to blueballs ur demon

[vale jay]

I dunno man you're giving a lot of sus advice

There's nothing wrong with using premium options

He doesn't own cami and cami is way more premium than belial

Nigong is fine here

The offense is fine you're overcomplicating shit and it isn't really helpful

I dunno about this picking cleanse shit with +2 for belial

I feel like you should probably just let other people give advice here

Like Riley rina is fine here too, nothing wrong with either

[atomic mirage]

Dead nigong pick is a dead nigong pick

Riley is free

[vale jay]

I'm sure Riley is good too

[tired hollow]

Carc eshir Shahat has been solved? 👀

[meager mauve]

It's.... not really a solve in the sense that it's actually super safe. There's plenty of ways to lose.

And it hasn't been thoroughly tested with proper builds.

[meager mauve]

This past siege I went 10-0. However there are 2 hits in particular that I think I only won because of rune gap/luck gap, not because I had picked out the right solution for the defense.

[tired hollow]

i sent bolv amelia gapsoo and it felt completely unloseable ot this

you can't belial audrey

she kills rina's and camis pretty easily

[meager mauve]

The other one is this:

The belial one I think was clearly just luck/rune gapping. I think in the 2nd one it's possible it was good, but I'm not sure. if the Elsha is built a little better my Angela could have died turn one.

[fiery geode]

wait why can't you belial audrey

what does audrey have that kills rinas and camis quickly?

[tired hollow]

all the damage in her passive? low cr high def audrey has killed both of those pretty quickly for me with a proc or two

idk that bonus damage really shafted me

think ent said the same thing iirc

[fiery geode]

i dunno i never noticed anything crazy

[hardy plank]

Audrey does hurt a good bit. I’ve never played that particular matchup through but I’d imagine a non cr Audrey can probably clock 10k+ a turn into Camilla

[vale jay]

to be fair there is a chandra and a byungchul there though

like i'm sure it can lose but it seems fine

[hardy plank]

Versus rina I’d say probably not a good idea

Bc constant def break spam can make things go dicey

[vale jay]

Yeah that's fair

[meager mauve]

1.) I figured this could be an easy Julie target. I'm not sure Orion or Rakan are ever built to survive Julie.

2.) Jaara killed both Brita and Perna pretty easy.

3.) I think this was a rune gap. I'm not sure this comp works. I couldn't really think of something that would work decently besides double snipe, which I've not re-runed yet to work in WGB.

4.) I think this can lose, but it seemed okay. Audrey hits Mi Ying, who reduces the damage she does drastically because of his passive, and then Juno strips and Tetra heals.

5.) Really thought the only damage threat was Miles, and if I take Leo he loses quite a bit of damage. On top of that I took -water on all of the units + I focused him first. Seemed alright since Shahat silences Miles from stripping shields too.

6.) I honestly had no idea how to handle this one. Felt like I was basically unable to win it no matter what. I am looking for some advice as to how to go about hitting this defense. All the solutions I could think of could still have issues because of Sylvia.

7.) This was actually hilarious. Seren vio procced 5 times to kill Alesia, but then my rocks came down and killed everything.

8.) I'm not sure this was a great comp. I liked the idea of Juno into Nora, ChaCha into Kinki, and Roid into Kinki, but it didn't quite do what I wanted. I'm not sure what other options work well. Maybe a Tetra would have been smarter?

9.) I think this comp works fine. Mi Ying actually survived the whole thing from passive damage reduction + heals.

10.) Jaara kills anything through Triana passive + if they're on will Gemini strips. Pretty easy win.

[fiery geode]

1. anything can be built to survive julie if you wanted to. but yea this is a safe bet at lower levels

3. this is super dangerous. bad team

bolv amelia would be better here

4. this is good nice thinking

6. cleave it or use some other bruiser team like feng or leo

8. this is fine and the def sucks, as long as you have chacha in there and something to help against nora its hard to lose

9. i would have been more comfortable with like juno rina here

and then you can use tetra in 8

[meager mauve]

I thought about Feng for this hit, but I thought the strip from Sylvia can cause too many issues. Especially since Tesa could oblivion Feng afterwards. I also wasn't sure how to go about cleaving this because Sylvia could be on swift with her 33 lead. I'm not sure what cleaving options I have available without something like Adriana.

[fiery geode]

there's really no spd threat here despite there being a 33 spd lead

yes it's possible sylvia can be on swift, but the chances of this especially at lower levels is just so low it's 100% worth the risk of just assuming she's not on swift

if you don't have adriana you can use hraes or kahli as substitutes

so for example mihyang kahli sonia/rigna

with respect to bruisering, feng doesn't instantly die if he gets oblivioned or anything

like feng aaliyah vela has a lot of support for him

if you use leo, jeanne leo helena would be great. sylvia being only strip will target jeanne

[meager mauve]

OH that's brilliant here. I don't know why I didn't see that before.

[meager mauve]

So, question then regarding Feng/Aaliyah/Vela. Would it be unreasonable to take this comp and use Feng to tank fire threats? I've thought about doing that but I'm not sure if FY is supposed to be a tank or not. He's got a damage reduction passive but it isn't anything like Malite or Dias, for example.

From my understanding he's more like Skogul in taht he's a good bruiser, but shouldn't be expected to be a tank.

[fiery geode]

in general yes, but it's a bit more nuanced

the main thing is that a tank like malite and dias continue to be good tanks even when def broken, and for malite even when oblivioned as well

feng doesn't hold up as well when def broken

but it's still fine to use him in a lot of situations as a tank given his overall stats kit and team

[hardy plank]

Chakra strips

Iirc

[sleek wigeon]

Chakra (Wind Indra)

Wikia

1. Thunder Shot

Attacks the enemy and decreases its Attack Bar by 30% with a 50% chance. When used during the Thunderer state, you attack additionally with lower damage to enemies of the same attribute as the target.

Levels

Damage +5%
Effect Rate +5%
Damage +5%
Effect Rate +10%
Damage +10%

Multiplier

3.6*{ATK}

2. Wild Bolt

Attacks all enemies and decreases their Attack Power for 2 turns with a 70% chance. When used during the Thunderer state, leaves a Branding effect for 2 turns with a 70% chance. (Reusable in 4 turns)

Levels

Damage +5%
Damage +10%
Damage +10%
Effect Rate +10%
Cooltime Turn -1

Multiplier

4.4*{ATK}

3. Might · Hurricane (Passive)

Deals additional damage that's proportionate to your Attack Speed when you attack the enemy and removes 1 beneficial effect from the enemy with a slower Attack Speed than yours. If the damage dealt on your turn during the Thunderer state is 15% or above of the target's MAX HP, increases the duration of the Thunderer state for 1 turn. [Automatic Effect]

4. The Wind Thunderer

Falls under the Thunderer state that enhances your skills for 3 turns and instantly gains another turn. While under the Thunderer state, your Attack Speed increases by 100%. Once the Thunderer state ends, you become stunned for 1 turn. In addition, decreases the skill cooldown of [The Wind Thunderer] by 2 turns each when you are not under the Thunderer state. (Reusable in 5 turns)

Levels

Cooltime Turn -1

provided by SWARFARM

[hardy plank]

Nvm it’s speed gated

[vale jay]

Thats a neat way to get around chakra stripping

[meager mauve]

I'd like to talk about WGB before getting into Siege hits. I'm very tilted and hitting really poorly in both, but WGB seemed like it was more winnable and I didn't do well.

1.) I honestly was just thinking of using the dots to kill Kinki pretty fast, but I failed to realize that maxi basically reduces Angela to a crappy heal bot. I just won this because of rune gap. I didn't win because of a good comp.

2.) This is racing at a disadvantage, but it's the best I can do. I don't really have any other way to race Adriana.

3.) The amount of vio procs here was actually kind of crazy. My monsters got to take a single turn and then they all died. I feel like this comp can work if they don't vio proc an insane amount.

4.) I think this can get risky T1 if Theo and Mi Ying vio proc a couple of times while Bolverk is def broken. But I honestly didn't know if there was a better way for me to handle this comp. Mi Ying prevents me from using any CC, and I couldn't think of any other comp that could be safe here.

5.) Jaara into this is always risky because if Taranys doesn't get def broken you can just lose. Luckily it didn't happen and I managed to win this one.

6.) Swift Ophilia. It was so crazy fast that it actually moved before Sigrid. It was the same combat speed as my Gemini. Not much to do with this one other than accept the rune gap and move on. Gemini and Sigrid aren't on fastest swift sets, but if they were I probably could have won this. The only issue is tuning Jaara to work with that, which I can't really do.

7.) Horrible comp. I completely forgot about Ongyouki passive. This was just clear tilt. I still won this because they were incredibly slow. But honestly, this is a clear instance of tilting.

8.) I really didn't think this was that bad of a comp. No def break, just branding. And with multiple ways to cleanse it, I felt it was fine.

9.) Miri was on my fastest swift set and Zen was still faster. Just got swift gapped. Otherwise I felt like this was fine to do.

10.) This can technically lose at 1 particular point. Riley doesn't get hit enough to get her ATK + immunity up all the time, which means that every so often (I think every 6 or 7 turns or something like that) there was a slight chance for Theo to def break, then for Carc to hit her with stance S1. I went -fire and made sure to heal as often as possible so she'd be full health, but there was a small window where I could lose Riley and then I'd have to hope that Rina can survive both Theo and Carc.

Overall I'm very tilted. Siege was rough because we pulled 2 tournament guilds and I felt like I couldn't do anything. I need to have a mental reset.

[hardy plank]

ok im here

in lieu of doing my usual stuff im going to jump around a bit

ok im gonna start with #2

@meager mauve are you in the headspace for an excercise

[meager mauve]

Yeah. I think I can do that. I can always come back to it in a bit too.

[hardy plank]

aight cool

so looking at 2 and comparing it to clara

theres a pretty immediately noticeable weakness

that is to say, clara is a generally better unit than carcano

or put simpler

theres no strip and the defense has no multihits meaning you unlock some cheese

so, given that pointer, how would you address this?

the carcano version is actually quite bad

its turn2able in a way that the clara variant isnt

Anyways while you noodle on that

1. So as you probably noticed this wasnt great. Honestly - switch angela for tetra and shahat for feng and you can practically auto this
2. Being talked about
3. No. If the zen defense breaks tesa and mimir goes into tesa its pretty feasible for tesarion to just drop turn 1. From there youre basically fucked. I would actually recommend cleaving this in general, the damage is just hard to survive
4. I forget, do you own camilla? Cami Belial makes this prety chill (divebomb the panda)but without it youd probably have to do some funnier stuff
5. Uh this defense is kinda anti turn 1. Given how the strips go you could feasibly shuffle bolverk here
6. This defense has no defense break, or strip, or really damage either. You can pretty freely turn 2 this with basically any good turn 2 units
7. You already identfied the issue here.
8. No problems here. Given how franky awful this defense is id personally shuffle the offense you used here to 6 or 10
9. This loses to a good bolv amelia windy.
10. No strip or defense ignore. Bolverk works here, but honestly id rather bolverk 9. What you did is fine, although you did identify the carcano issue

[meager mauve]

So, thinking about this, it means I could do something with immunity and Triana. But the problem is that I'm worried about vio procs with Triana. I suppose I'd need another monster to bring immunity to guarantee it could stay up, but then I'm not sure how I'd manage to deal enough damage to kill anything with just one monster.

[hardy plank]

so a piece of wisdom I’ll give you

Is

“What unit can I remove from” insert defense and win off of

[meager mauve]

3.) I really don't know how to cleave a Tesa. I've had him survive so much stuff that I'm not sure what would be easiest to cleave with.

4.) I do not own Cami. I wish I did though. Cami would be a free win into this defense.

6.) Hmmm.... Yeah, this was also just sending on tilt. Your point is valid.

[hardy plank]

More wisdom

Don’t cleave Tesa. You can shoot his allies

But don’t shoot Tesa

[north zenith]

Is this a cleave and let Laika do his thing hint 👀

[hardy plank]

There are many ways to accomplish the goal

[meager mauve]

The hint is really about Adriana. If Adriana is gone this defense is useless because Odin can't get stacks.

[tired hollow]

Is cami belial safe into mi ying? I feel like mi ying can add down a cami maybe

[hardy plank]

If ur belial is squishy enough he’ll be low enough for him to die first

(After Clara s3)

[tired hollow]

Fair enough

I’d be a bit worried

About my cami dying to mi ying Theo for those 12 turns

But maybe they just live

[tired hollow]

You can’t snipe tesa with cov/beth/claire?

I think I’d rigna mihy the left two tho

[hardy plank]

No

[tired hollow]

I guess they can tank with damage reduction

Oh

I think

I figured out

The answer to the carc Adriana

Garo racuni cov?

Is that negative still?

Oh gdk is 1 faster

Idk if that’s faster either tho

Gdk also doesn’t snipe Adriana which is the only loss con

Thinking about it I used to deploy the moore

To tank odins but I think his ai is random

[vale jay]

Garo racuni covenant is fine

It's not bad

If you follow this idea where you kill adriana there's a lot of ways you can do this format and win

Some involve outspeeding, some involve taking turn 2

[meager mauve]

WGB review:

1.) The only issue here is that Windy can die if Perna vio procs a lot. Though it had to be quite a few times.

2.) Honestly just saw that if you kill Manon Carc never hits anything but Riley, which seems safe because she can have a lot of immunity up.

3.) I didn't really think about this one too hard because I didn't see how this could lose as long as I save Aaliyah S3 to cleanse the Rakan taunt on FY if it lands.

4.) Tractor to prevent defense breaks and draw FY endlessly, Juno to heal and strip, and Carc hits through the shields so he doesn't take damage from Angela. I thought this was clever.

5.) No speed lead meant this was pretty safe. I took +wind to ensure that I could kill Louise.

6.) I've hit this particular comp in Siege before with Bolverk. I take everything on -water and then make sure to keep immunity up so that Theo can't defense break and it seems pretty safe.

7.) This one I think was just really bad. Triana was killed by Odin first and it was game over from there.

[hardy plank]

1. Kinda scares me ngl. Violent builds kind of fuck and i can feasibly see a vio cd moore killing you. Youre in lower ranks so i dont think ppl will spec this properly
2. Fine.
3. Fine
4. Pssssssst this is what snipe offenses are for
5. Lushen check. I dont know how good ur lushen is but this is definitely losable given Loiuse has solid bases
6. Free
7. Ill touch this later
8. Free
9. Snipe this lol, save feng for other things
10. You can pretty freely tractor double wind this with something like riley seara

[meager mauve]

I don't have any confidence in my sniper comps. I don't think my rune quality is high enough. I have Bethony but I can't make her deal more than about 55k. I need about 10-15k more damage for snipers to be safe and I can't hit that with my current runes.

[hardy plank]

do you have shizuka?

[meager mauve]

Yes indeed!

[hardy plank]

you can do things with for example kahli shizuka

but i digress

[meager mauve]

I will be honest, I had no idea that Shizuka did that on S3. That's definitely a comp I can use.

Knowledge gap once again

[hardy plank]

Hmm so seven is the main issue then

[meager mauve]

I'll walk you through what I was thinking when building this comp. I think it's bad, but it's the best I could think of.

I was basically thinking I need to strip the immunity and then kill odin with Raki, and the only way I could think of to do that right was with Juno + Raki. The problem was that they could easily die to Odin, so I took Triana so that if he targeted either Triana passive would save them.

Then I could strip with Juno, then Def break with Raki, then kill Odin and prevent his revive and this is an easy 3v2 now because they can't kill through Triana passive anymore.

But Triana died, which meant I lost because there was no way to heal anymore besides Juno, and there isn't enough debuffs for that to work so :/

Oh also here's my Lushen for reference:

[hardy plank]

[hardy plank]

I can give you an easy solution lol

||Mihyang Mephisto Mo Long||

[tired hollow]

You can also consider slowing down the comp- these kinds of defenses are in all likelihood tick 6 or so

[tired hollow]

[tired hollow]

Would u be happy sniping 5?

[hardy plank]

Yes

[tired hollow]

Sniping seems safer than lushen

ESP cuz miles will have shield sets

And hp lead

[tired hollow]

Does this ever lose the 2v3?

I feel like khmun (or the better lead is probably Chandra/clara) with light puppet can kill a lower hp swift mo + mephisto + mihy? Like if it’s clara khmun I guess you can build a tank mephisto, but light puppet I feel is pretty strong and with Chandra might win out?

[hardy plank]

Mihy races much better

[tired hollow]

I’m referring to the defense lead

I’d be worried that khmun/clara/chandra light puppet beats mo meph mihy

[hardy plank]

With khmun it’s very unlikely

[tired hollow]

What’s the tech for Chandra version then?

[meager mauve]

I'm having some trouble understanding how to use Jeanne Leo Helena.

I feel like I can't find any defenses that it can actually work for.

I've been told not to use it into cleanses, water units, or places where they can make you glance (molly for example).

But any good defense that is built properly will have almost all of those things.

So it feels like the only place I can ever use it is when the defense is missing basic stuff, so it's a trash defense. And if that's the case, then JLH isn't what beats it, almost anything can beat it because the defense is just bad.

How am I supposed to find good spots to use JLH?

(It also doesn't help that whenever defenses are being tested, they are specifically seeing if they can beat JLH)

[fiery geode]

none of those by themselves are hard stops for using jlh

[meager mauve]

Let me post a couple of examples of places where I've written off JLH but it's possible it might be okay.

Here, for example. There's a lot of ATB pushback from Dark Megumi + Nana, which makes this seem really tough to JLH.

Or here, there's both a water unit AND glancing increase from that water unit. Plus there's CC from Maya. I don't think JLH works here at all.

Or this last one. There's a cleanse and a water unit. I don't see how JLH would work into this without being really risky. Especially since Kumar can oblivion Leo and it's basically all over from there.

[vale jay]

You can't into manon

[fiery geode]

also personal pet peeve please take screenshots of the monster icons

i hate transmogs and its so hard to tell what some monsters are now

like scarlet said the only one you can't is into the manon

also even without the manon, the dark nora there is a bit sketchy, she can chain cc your entire team

the other 2, while it wouldn't be my first choice you can still do it

at its core jlh is still a leo team

and it just feels bad/inefficient to use leo into teams that aren't even fast or scale with speed

[meager mauve]

Siege hits from today:

I tried very hard this time to pay attention to places where I could either Julie or Miri Lushen because I knew they were off of Vio. it resulted in some nice wins for me. I'll be doing that more in the future.

1.) Scouted this.

2.) I've used a similar kind of comp in the past. Mi Ying handles Audrey pretty well and Nana + Tetra make it pretty safe. Mi Ying never even really got close to dying.

3.) This was a pretty scary hit because I missed strips on everything. Luckily, they did not do much after their first turns and I was able to stabilize.

4.) This seemed like a pretty easy FY spot. Kumar could oblivion, but I could have immunity + cleanses from Aaliyah.

5.) This was a really stupid hit. I honestly didn't think this through very much. If I thought for more than a few seconds I would have understood that Shazam will eat this comp alive. S3 makes everyone attack Helena, and one S1 on Leo and he's toast. Very poor decision.

6.) Scouted.

7.) This was a pretty poor defense. Only one defense break and it's on the wind money. All I had to do was keep immunity up. Riley + Amelia made it nearly impossible for this defense to do anything.

8.) I saw another guildmate run this offense into this comp and I really liked it. The Nana keeps things relatively safe, and once Jaara kills one monster, you basically win after that.

9.) Scouted

10.) Scouted

[tired hollow]

I feel attacked

This might be rich from someone who sent a bethony and lost to that one, but it’s just double wind rina food- can save bolverk Amelia for better options imo

[tired hollow]

Doesn’t it also feel bad to send the Helena into water stuff? Or not really? And do u rune Helena on 60 res?

[fiery geode]

it's fine

yes i do run helena max res

[meager mauve]

Going over some WGB hits:

1.) I underestimate Theo all the time because of hits like this. Very bad comp.

2.) I accidentally used some tech incorrectly (as in, it is some specific tech for a different team). I didn't even think about it until I looked at this hit again. I've been asked not to share the team I used, and I don't want to give away any information. Safe to say this was a really dumb idea.

3.) I've seen some WGB defenses like this before. Chandra + Feng. I figured throwing FAV would be alright.

4.) This seemed like a decent spot for a Leo cutting Savanna's damage, but I also liked that I could silence Rahul with Shahat, meaning he can only S1 instead of S2 or S3.

5.) I honestly thought all I'd need to do here is give Liam a turn and he'd be able to kill Cov. Unfortunately what I forgot is that Praha can be built on despair and he was stunned. Then Kiki killed him. I had him super squishy. I think this was a bad comp in general, and I'm not really sure what would have been a better idea, seeing as Juno can get killed by Carc pretty easy.

I won my next set of WGB hits. But I'd like some feedback on this hit:

I thought that this was a pretty low-damage comp, so I just needed to kill Sehkmet and it's a win. I took Tesa just because it would be easier to kill Camilla, and then I had Tesa on destroy for Riley. Am I correct in assuming this is just a bad defense, or did I get lucky?

[vale jay]

It's a bad defense

I think your solution could be even simpler

I would just shoot sekhmet and press auto

I'm not sure I love your DD also being responsible for tanking the only damage on the defense

I feel like your offense in 5R is really weird and I don't understand if

There's no swift threat

What do you think would be better with that in mind

@meager mauve

[meager mauve]

......

-# Bethony

[hardy plank]

Feng shren Hwahee shoot sekhmet press auto

Make sure hwahee and shren are on will

[tired hollow]

Can u dm me this? I’m curious lol

[meager mauve]

Siege was 9-1. Each time I lose I feel really dumb because I know I am better than this. Only loss was the following:

Riley Rina Belial into Carc Gapsoo Theomars

Very silly hit and I'm sure there are other ways around it.

[vale jay]

Who's the swift threat on this defense

[meager mauve]

There isn't one. But I wasn't sure I could cleave.

Theo and Carc can survive Lushen, and Gapsoo and Theo can survive Julie. So I felt those were out of the question.

[vale jay]

W̶̔́h̴̪͒a̸̋̆ṱ̶̔ ̷͙̍d̷̥̋o̶̿ you think wo̖ǘ̷͆ĺ̸̙d̶̅͘ ̴̔have be̿e̶͑̉ṅ̵̃ ̴better ̸̺͘with thiŝ̴ͅ ̶͔͂í̸̮n̷͊ͅ ̶̛̼m̶͝ind?

In all seriousness if you don't want to bethony still you could galleon Tiana liesel it

[meager mauve]

I have CP so I'd do that.

[vale jay]

Not into carc

Is no bueno

[meager mauve]

Oh right.

[vale jay]

🙅

[meager mauve]

I need to get a good Tiana build going and then note it down.

[vale jay]

I only use Tiana into stuff without swift threats

For that purpose Tiana doesn't really need to be fast

You can run like +180 or something with good stats and it'll do just fine

[meager mauve]

The good stats is the hard part. Hahahahaha

[vale jay]

On +180 anything is possible

You only need HP def atk and cdmg, nothing else

No crate needed

I'm assuming this def was being run by the third guild right

[tired hollow]

With that being said, usually in a Theo team without a speed threat the answer is to double snipe afaik

And just assume Theo doesn’t proc enough to get passive back, or use a premium snipe like Adriana mihy ciri which won’t ever really get soloed by the Theo?

Like Adriana mihy Sonia shouldn’t ever really lose to that

I’m fairly sure

[vale jay]

Yeah just have Jayke pull an Adriana and rigna

[tired hollow]

Ah, well previous point stands

Usually Theo +2 no threat is praline stuff and pray Theo no solo right?

[vale jay]

Yeah I think he could use Bethony here

Adriana is good too though

[tired hollow]

Does it have to be bethony to shoot gapsoo?

[vale jay]

If you have and want to use it

Bethony is op

And people don't do -dark so

[tired hollow]

Bethony is too op

So

I forgot

?dontsnipe

[lapis pecan]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/111620344564965376/1335006876198375486/image.png?ex=679e998a&is=679d480a&hm=7054ed64dfd58634f85d3a9fb03a726d1f68981bf66b9c01d9e60e9e4a2704fb&=&format=webp&quality=lossless

[vale jay]

She's also 120 base?

[tired hollow]

[vale jay]

He doesn't have damage reduce wrong color

[tired hollow]

I know

I’m just saying bethony inspired overconfidence in me lol

Outta curiosity could you send the orochi thing at this too?

Eh nvm

Definitely shit

[vale jay]

Nah

I'm not sure if Jayke has that dawg in him @supple onyx

[supple onyx]

idk the context

but recruit his ah

can always kick

[fiery geode]

there's lots of ways to make pralining a theo a bit safer. you can choose snipers that have a bit of extra survivability like kahli, odin, federica

you can choose snipers that have some cc in their kit like taru or ellena

cov and shren are probably the worst because they're squishy and don't do anything after they nuke. beth isn't great either but at least her s1 can atk break

[meager mauve]

It's stuff like this that I have this thread for. I wouldn't have understood this particular concept without this explanation. Thank you!

[supple onyx]

np

[tired hollow]

To add on, I liked fire kass into byungchul because byung doesn’t target her until later, and she has her passive as a nice failsafe

Probably a reasonable counter

[meager mauve]

I'd disagree. Byung crits so you don't get elemental advantage for glancing. he can proc and strip, meaning you lose your invincibility and give it to him, and his passive makes it harder for kass to kill him.

[tired hollow]

You leave him last, he shouldn’t really solo you

His s2 from full hp doesn’t take kass to 0

[meager mauve]

No, but a couple procs will.

[tired hollow]

No, because he’s not hitting her

He’s hitting praline or the other thing

Should buy enough time for kass to take him lower & kill him

Once his dr is lowered a bit

Lose condition is byung 1v3s and does enough damage to kass and s2s once kass is low enough to proc her passive and steals her invinc

Seems hard

Idk how many byungs comps are snipeable these days tho, feels like every byung has a nana next to it

[meager mauve]

WGB did not go well on round 2.

1.) Manon moved 7 times in a row (thanks to jx9 for the correction) to kill Nigong. If she had not done so, I think this is fine.

2.) Seemed fine.

3.) I've used this before, really don't think there's much of an issue.

4.) Audrey vio procced 4 times in a row to kill Juno. I think it's also unlucky. Otherwise this comp seems like it should work fine.

5.) Picked this because there was no speed lead and I thought I could outspeed chilling because of that. Next time I will just assume Chiling is faster no matter what.

Poor choice on 5, but I think 2 and 4 were both just unlucky. The comps seem solid enough.

[fiery geode]

ok first another pet peeve of mine is when people are unable to count vio procs

maybe manon moved 7 times in a row but there is no way in hell she got 7 vio procs in a row

her s2 gives her an automatic turn, that does not count as a vio proc

sometimes monsters lap you too and that's not a vio proc either

the most procs i've personally encountered was 4. that happens to me approximately less than once a year

i have been playing quite awhile and i have never even seen a 5 vio proc

also if you don't understand how vio works -

outside of rta, there is no cap on the number of vio procs you can have in a row. but the chance of each successive proc is decreased by approximately half (i think it's actually 45? something like that). so if you proc'ed once the chance of that second proc in a row is only 12%

this gets resets though by any additional turn mechanic or any natural turns

so yes it's very easy to overstimate vio procs coming from monsters with additional turn mechanics like chandra, manon, seara, etc

ok with that out of the way

stop using nigong with this team it's shit

overall it's bad, but against this def it is extremely bad. like literally i think 2v3 with just rina belial gives you the same chance of winning compared to using nigong rina belial

the first rule of belial teams is that you need belial to get hit and to die

usually this means you only use this team into defs with some aoe, and since belial is squishy he'll take more dmg from that aoe and then get targeted

so to start off with belial teams are already not a great choice against this def, there's no aoe and no way to ensure belial gets hit

then on top of that - gapsoo is likely to go first, and he has a brand which works basically just like a def break

so nigong is just going to get targeted immediately until he dies. leaving your other 2 units who WANT to get hit, not get hit at all

[meager mauve]

You are correct. She moved 7 total times, not seven vio procs. My apologies.

[fiery geode]

first choice against this def for me would be to just use praline

if for some reason someone pointed a gun to your head and said YOU MUST BELIAL THIS TEAM

you need to use cami rina or if you don't have cami, at least riley rina

[meager mauve]

I will bench this team for good. Doesn't work. I do not have Cami, but I will use Riley or find some other +1 that works better than Nigong.

[fiery geode]

the +1 should depend on the def

4. this team is kind of bad, you seem to be again confusing yourself trying to do too many things and not following basics

what are the threats and where are the def breaks?

there's 2 single target def breaks coming from light and water

using a dark tank is great. but then you can't use random other monsters trying to do random things

you need 2 wind

riley is a good healer, and then if you're worried about all the buffs you can pick a wind bruiser that has a strip

diana, shahat, xing, even something cheeky like giou could be good here

also regardless, i'd still much rather double snipe this than any bruiser

[meager mauve]

I am severely limited by my inability to rune snipers for a double snipe team. I can't tune them to my topset without losing too much damage. I'm currently farming, but double snipe teams unfortunately aren't something I can use right now with any level of confidence or consistency.

[fiery geode]

don't tune to top set then

and just dont race with them

if you make a +180 praline you will still outspeed 99% of all these hp lead defs

with attack lead.

[meager mauve]

That's a good point. I'll start working on that.

[fiery geode]

with something like cov bethony praline i bet you can get enough dmg to beat this with literally green quality runes

don't be afraid of losing with a cleave

even with a weak cleave that loses sometimes your overall win rate is still going to be better

what happens 99% of the time everywhere

and confirmed happening in this thread

is that with a cleave you maybe lose 1 or 2 times out of 10 due to getting outsped or not enough damage, and those losses just feel really bad and you say "my runes suck i can't do this"

and then when you bruiser you lose 4 times out of 10 and just say "oh i lost to procs gg unlucky go next"

[meager mauve]

I had not thought about this, but you are right. I think the issue is mainly that I lose with a cleave and then immediately assume that all of my uses of this cleave will end this way.

And then when I lose with a bruiser team I think "well, that's just this instance. I'm sure next time it will work fine"

In reality I should swap the two mentalities.

Thanks for your advice!

[tired hollow]

Aside from dark poison and miying, what dark tanks work? I feel like Audrey and brita shred Dias

Maybe xingzhe riley can sustain him but ophilia kinda makes it hard?

[hardy plank]

Ok so I concur with what jx has said, but I would like to add that

Juno is not a good tank

[meager mauve]

Grego could probably function as a tank. Crawler slightly? Not as good probably though. ChaCha can be a tank.

[hardy plank]

Dont use chacha vs audrey + ophelia

[fiery geode]

dias is great i'm not sure what you're scared of

[tired hollow]

Can’t brita pretty easily kill a Dias?

[hardy plank]

yea those two DDs can be specced to kill Camilla

Because of how their kits work

Dias probably will have similar issues

I wouldn’t bother tanking those two and just skip straight to sniping tbh

[fiery geode]

try it

cami is not dias

you're absolutely right audrey and brita can be built to counter cami but cami works differently from dias

audrey is not doing anything to dias

[tired hollow]

I guess u build the Dias full -water and his passive deals with Audrey

Is the thought process?

[fiery geode]

brita is good but the way brita countering cami works is usually in that situation you're thinking of cami needing to sustain herself

such as with belial cami team

cami needs to take turns to sustain herself, brita does add dmg no crit and can reduce atb

but in this situation dias isn't sustaining himself. you can build him super tanky and then you have a different monster healing him

[fiery geode]

yes

[fiery geode]

but yea at the end of the day, this

[hardy plank]

so there’s a greater level of strategy for wgb that I think should be touched on

Which is basically

“How do i ration/prioritize hits in isgw”

[meager mauve]

This is also a problem I run into often. Because my rune depth isn't very good, I can't run things like 2 sniper teams. I only have the ability to run one at a time. So if there are 2 places to snipe, I usually bruiser one and hope for the best.

[supple onyx]

u havent seen my replays

[fiery geode]

dw i watched all your replays and hisokas too

[supple onyx]

wait fr?

i dont even watch my replays

y jaykeblak allergic to cleaving

here's my preset for isgw (no cap):

1. leo
2. adriana
3. feng
4. dark homie comp

and 5th is w/e

spam that sh and ill see u in aproc

[meager mauve]

Because I'm not very good at the game at the moment. I'm working on cleaving more often.

[meager mauve]

No adriana. I have the rest though!

[supple onyx]

v nice

use ghetto adriana aka 2a kahli

[meager mauve]

Or Hraes

[supple onyx]

ye that works too but ive never used him b/c too lazy

wat lds u have?

[vale jay]

Thats what I ask myself every time I open this fucking thread man I dunno

[meager mauve]

I think there's a pinned post. I've got Mi Ying, Audrey, Jaara, Dark Bison, Isis, Nigong, Lora, Sigrid, Beelzebub

[vale jay]

My man has 3 bethonies and a 3 miris ready to fire

It's not fair

[vale jay]

You too????

[meager mauve]

Don't make me hide tech!

Like my amazing Mi Ying stuff that you absolutely would copy

[vale jay]

Does this mean I contribute to 20% of your success???

[supple onyx]

bro i got mi ying too n lil bro is perma benched

[supple onyx]

100%

[vale jay]

Mi ying isn't him???

I thought hes op dark bruiser...

[meager mauve]

I like him. I use him every siege.

[supple onyx]

i use him as op dark bruiiser

i lucksack

[vale jay]

After a certain point it's not luck

You never lose in WGB man

I don't know how

You just always win

I need to pull rigna so I can do this

[meager mauve]

I used all of my luck to pull a dupe Jaara and then 2 days later an Audrey so I guess I will never reach the lofty heights of Apoc. :sadge:

[supple onyx]

op jaara players............

[supple onyx]

uh i think u just LITERALLY have not seen my losses

[north zenith]

think about this sometimes

[meager mauve]

That's it I'm pulling the plug on this whole operation!

nooooooooo

[supple onyx]

Im ngl

I have 3 Beths

But I prob use none

But I should start against 4* defs…

[fiery geode]

you can't actually use beth into any 4* defs right now because praline gets outsped by everything on 4*

but there's plenty of 5* stuff you can praline...

[supple onyx]

Fr?

I was gonna my/kahli/beth stuff

[tired hollow]

Is apoc hiring

https://tenor.com/view/wickedsteer-wicked-pepe-steer-gif-25014625

Me omw to fail apoc trials

[north zenith]

Leak how to pull Beth guide

[supple onyx]

we r ALWAYS recruiting

[meager mauve]

One day. I think apoc would be a fun guild. Not going to happen for quite a while though.

[supple onyx]

By the time u join, jx might not be in apoc anymore…

[meager mauve]

I picked some tough WGB this go around.

Lost 5 because I accidentally made Jaara move before Galleon. Failed the speed tuning.

7 I lost because I did + damage to wind instead of + damage to light or water, and praha + shazam 2v3'd

9 I'll be honest, I had absolutely no idea how to beat this defense. I just made a guess at suicide comps and hoped for the best.

It probably could have done alright, except that Lionel decided to S2 first THEN S3, which killed Sian and I was left without much damage otherwise.

Also didn't help that Liu Mei cut between Iunu's death and revival.

[hardy plank]

5. Seems fine I guess assuming you fix your tuning
   /4. No. Zeratu + seara is very capable of just deleting a unit. You have no passive damage
6. Good enough
   2.uh let me check how Kunite works. If you get oblivioned things can get weird very fast if he works the way I think he does
7. Cheongpung

[hardy plank]

1. Fine
2. Use chacha here
3. fine but I’d like to see a tetra here
4. Suicide works but chow was not the right unit
5. Fine

[vale jay]

4. To add on to what ent said, remember that zeratu is essentially permanently immune, making shahat 2/3rd of his normal effectiveness

9. Your guess was correct - honestly when I see Seara Lionel my first idea is suicide. These no sustain high damage comps are susceptible to suicide angles. Next time I would like to see something like ashour as your +1 here, considering the most threatening unit here is Seara, and the least threatening one is Lionel, you are playing into element disadvantage, so. Sian feels a bit less good into scenarios where the def inherently has several strips. Ashour psama Iunu sounds ok to me

[tired hollow]

Do u not like racing 30 + 111?

I know jayke specifically isn’t a huge fan of racing with his topset

But 30+111 vs 24+113 seems solid

I also haven’t built suicide yet, but I probably should

[vale jay]

I'm confused, are you talking about Susano Adriana? You need to be more specific, I'm not sure what 30 + 111 means

[tired hollow]

Orochi Bernie

Idk, I haven’t used the comp at all cuz I don’t own kaito but it seems like a solid race and I’d be surprised if seara lives

[vale jay]

I would rather run suicide

Specifically for this instance

I don't feel like there's any unit you kill here where you cannot lose the 3v2

[hardy plank]

Shahat s2 strips!

[vale jay]

Oh. That's true. Oops.

I'm still scared of leoing this though either way

[meager mauve]

9-1 Siege again. I am actually satisfied with my hits this time around. Only loss was the following:

I think if I take Tetra instead of Angela, and if I focus Nora instead of Chandra after killing Elsha, this can win.

[north zenith]

Is the whole team 100 res?

[meager mauve]

Yes. And Shahat 85 acc

[north zenith]

yeah i would dive nora next time since shahat can strip hug

but tetra>angela since nora strips shield

[meager mauve]

I agree with you mr 10-0

[tired hollow]

Wait

How did this lose

If u killed elsha, did Nora just solo you..?

[meager mauve]

Yes

[hardy plank]

Yea so

My advice

[fiery geode]

i don't quite understand the angela hype

my guild suffers a lot from this too

[hardy plank]

Don’t turn 2 Nora without something like Juno/tetra/vero

[fiery geode]

we have a ton of losses with leo angela

tetra is better in many cases

[hardy plank]

Tetra sidegrade but she’s 5* so she’s cool

[fiery geode]

people just want braindead presets without having to think

[hardy plank]

Yea

[fiery geode]

@meager mauve if its any consolation

more than half the advice i tell you

i have to give to my guildies too

[hardy plank]

[fiery geode]

and they can't grasp basic concepts either like "build specific teams to counter the def you're facing"

the number of times i get pikachu faces from "i used this team against this other def so i thought it was good" is way too high

[meager mauve]

Yeah I am actually not impressed to be honest. Her heals are lackluster and her passive is just Racuni. I think I am going to run Tetra in this comp instead.

I appreciate the words of encouragement though. I am definitely feeling very discouraged at my inability to play this game

[tired hollow]

You’re comparing to globals finest

Which is obvious but should be reiterated

As long as we keep showing a positive growth eventually maybe we can catch up 🙂

[vale jay]

Fuck Angela we get rid of her

I'm going back to tetra too

[hardy plank]

@fiery geode do you happen to know what the Angela variant was initially used for?

[meager mauve]

That's the hope. I have been growing much slower than I would like though. And much slower than I think my potential is.

[fiery geode]

not sure, i dont have her

[hardy plank]

It’s been what a season? Two?

[hardy plank]

It’s gotta be smth with Byungchul right? Can’t see where Angela would be BiS over tetra/totem except vs a Grindr byungchul shell

[meager mauve]

1 season in a guild above G1.

[hardy plank]

Eh you’re doing fine. I think I went lychi for a season -> wrng the next season

[tired hollow]

Lychi?

[hardy plank]

Lychi mountain

Now known as the old guard

word of advice never be in a guild with me

All but 2 ive been in have died

[tired hollow]

Oh idk what wrng is either lol

[hardy plank]

Why rngesus

[north zenith]

wtf Angela is op

Carries my feng

[north zenith]

Tourney when

Ik ur ready

[vale jay]

Apoc is thriving

Malevolent is alive and well

Null is stronger than ever

Checkmate entreists

I dunno I think Leo Angela shahat is great but it's not like Angela is some special exclusive unit there. Tetra can do the same thing better a lot of the time right
It's a preset warrior thing surely

I know lutz was using it to great success

[meager mauve]

100% preset warrior stuff.

[tired hollow]

Isn’t Angela nice for the defense lead

[meager mauve]

Leos is better.

At least for this comp.

[tired hollow]

I’m saying Angela benefits lol, she has an arena res lead iirc. Tetra doesn’t

[hardy plank]

Ayaya gang

[tired hollow]

But ofc tetra works better against some teams, it’s probably just one reason why people like Angela in that comp?

[hardy plank]

[tired hollow]

Too poor

[hardy plank]

[meager mauve]

More WGB hits:

Only loss was against MY/Adriana/Odin. I actually probably could have swapped Leo for Helena now that I'm looking at it and I would have probably won. The Odin was just built really really tanky.

The only other two hits I'm a little curious about were 5 (Tesa/Yeehaw/Tetra into Moore/Savannah/Kaki) and 8 (Khmun/Yeehaw/Racuni into Dominic/Rakan/Riley).

On 5, I think it works much like the tesa variant, so I just ran my counter. Tesarion died to Kaki though, so I'm wondering if maybe this isn't as safe?

On 8, I'm not really sure how great of a comp this is. I made sure Khmun was on Destroy so that Riley would eventually die. But is it possible for Dominic to kill Yeonhwa? Is there perhaps a better tank to take here instead?

Other than that, I think the rest of these were pretty straightforward.

[meager mauve]

WGB from today:

5R was pretty funny. I sent this comp thinking "Oh yeah this is free because they're all hitting Helena" and then I realized that Belial had no way to die either. Luckily he did enough damage full health to kill everything anyway. Probably better to bring something like Liam instead.

7 was really annoying. I feel like they vio procced a lot but I honestly think this is where I should have used a double snipe with Bethony. Kill Nigong and then snipe Leona and I can 3v1 Miles. I need to build it.

10 I honestly lost because Kumar resisted everything. He resisted the stun from despair hyanes, then resisted the first freeze from Verad. Would have won it from there because Verad resisted the silence, but then he resisted the 2nd freeze from Verad and cleansed Louise. It was over from there. First loss I've ever experienced with this comp.

[hardy plank]

So

I would caution

Hyanes vs Louise kumar

Bc there’s 2 different units who can hose you

One of which is wind

[meager mauve]

Yeah. Lesson learned.

[hardy plank]

5 you can use suiki and it will go smoother

I’ve historically used chacha vs miles nigong defs but that kind of stuff works

And the important one

?dontsnipe

[lapis pecan]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/111620344564965376/1335006876198375486/image.png?ex=679e998a&is=679d480a&hm=7054ed64dfd58634f85d3a9fb03a726d1f68981bf66b9c01d9e60e9e4a2704fb&=&format=webp&quality=lossless

[meager mauve]

Uh... okay?

[meager mauve]

Not sure where I sniped FY

[autumn crystal]

same idea applies to lushen

[hardy plank]

Feng can solo that offense

[hardy plank]

Sorry. Freezing fingers, typo

Don’t snipe monsters can be further expanded to be

Don’t cleave these units if your gameplan relies on them dying on open

[meager mauve]

Got it. I realized after you mentioned it that Bulldozer is a different case because of his defense snipe vs ATK.

[fiery geode]

7 - how did you lose, did mi ying just eventually die and you couldn't keep up with heals?

[meager mauve]

Yes, also Miles was on destroy.

[fiery geode]

yea so there's a bit of nuance with using those +2 bruisers that you need to consider

first you should realize that a lot of wind bruisers/tanks benefit a lot from being the tank, and from being hit. if they aren't being always hit, they actually don't really do their job that well (or rather, there's probably a better other choice)

skogul, feng, riley, malite, they all fall into this category

so immediately if you use any of those above monsters with another wind monster, you're already kinda fucking up

there's no def break on this def. you don't have to use 2 wind

i know you were trying to funnel miles and nigong into mi ying here but its not really necessary

the second thing here is that you don't have anything to deal with the buffs from ophilia and nigong

you should pick some bruiser (or even healer like lala) that has strips. for example nora, your own miles, i dunno there's tons of options i cant remember your box right now

[meager mauve]

Yeah. All of this added up made this a loss.

[fiery geode]

double snipe is good but in a wgb situation like this

i actually would prefer to just bruiser it because of how easy it is to bruiser

and save double snipe for something else

ent's suggestion of chacha is also great. chacha doesn't even have to tank specifically a light damage dealer

you can literally use chacha as a triple rev support into a light support with no damage like molly

and it will be great since then chacha constantly provides the rest of your team with shield and heal

the shield is nice for destroy battle too

[meager mauve]

Thank you. This is all stuff I kind of already knew but didn't think about or consider.

And now that you mention it I'm facepalming a bit.

I need to go through my box and find which monsters have good strip. I constantly struggle finding a good stripper just because I can only think of Juno. I know I have others like CP. I just need to write them down and refer to the list until I am better at recognizing them.

[hardy plank]

Tacking onto this for a moment

[fiery geode]

juno would have been fine too

[hardy plank]

Feng vs units who don’t die to hitting him

Is generally mediocre

[meager mauve]

Can't Juno just get obliterated by Miles?

[hardy plank]

If there’s not a good damage source hitting him he’s kinda wasted

[meager mauve]

Right. And he's generally built much slower for this specific reason.

[fiery geode]

no, and in addition to no you also can build juno on a tankier build. she doesn't always have to be super fast 100 cr

[meager mauve]

That makes sense. Though this does lead me to a random question:

[fiery geode]

you have xing right

xing is amazing now in these situations

[meager mauve]

Should I build units in as many variations as possible and place those runes on storage mons for later, or is it better to rebuild the monster according to need if I see it?

[fiery geode]

build and save variations as needed

tbh anytime you use juno on offense i think you should have her on a tankier build

the "standard" juno build is mostly just rta

[meager mauve]

Currently this is how I have her built. I was going to ask if I need to build her the other way and save that variation, despite the tanky build working more often and serving my needs much better.

[fiery geode]

i wouldn't even bother saving fast 100 cr rta style juno build outside of rta

and wait a minute

i just looked at your box

YOU HAVE LORA?

[meager mauve]

I do, but I have never understood how to use her. And I never find her doing anything useful. I am certain I am building her wrong.

Anything she could do I feel I could do better with another monster. Strip? Juno. Tank? Shamann. Def buff? Aaliyah.

I never really feel like she is as OP as everyone says.

But with how many times I've seen Lora discussed as one of the ultimate LD's I'm certain this is on me.

[fiery geode]

lol nah she's not insane on offense or anything dont woryr

i mean she's good

but for the most part people just use her as a chilling

meaning spd buffer for spd cleaves like sonia or leah

but i just realized you have a lot of good units and lds

that i never see you using

[meager mauve]

And even here I feel like she's worse because she can trigger nem since she hits everything. I'd rather use a booster that wouldn't cause a cut.

[fiery geode]

she won't do enough dmg

[meager mauve]

Yeah. This is partially due to my inability to figure out how to rune them, partially because my rune depth is lacking, and partially because I simply don't know how to put the units in a proper comp.

[fiery geode]

anyway - examples of bruisers with strip you can use on offense

(dont randomly make these units if you haven't already, just if you have them already skilled up you can think about using them)

[meager mauve]

Of course. Build units you need. Never build random units just to build them.

[fiery geode]

brita, chandra, praha, water twink, coco (not a stripper but does dmg that doesn't need strip so basically does same thing), moogwang, juno kumar, shahat, diana, ethna, smicer, ritesh, xing, elsha, lora

[meager mauve]

I will also note that I have gotten into a very bad habit as of late. I am preset warrioring everything. I am going to try to fix that.

[tired hollow]

If you already have Lora and Juno skilled up you can think about using them

I guess on offense it’s fair but I can’t read so I see this out of context

[meager mauve]

8-2 this siege, but both losses were completely avoidable. I made the mistake of using the wrong Imesety that was not skilled up in one, and the other I used the Hyanes offense into a Smicer. I forgot that Smicer's passive is a passive and not an active. 😦

But I have a couple of questions about 2 hits that I did.

First one is this:

Main question I have here is did I think this through properly.

I figured Dom can only attack Lulu, and if I just keep immunity up I can prevent the Nana def breaks. I also figured that if I just killed Dom first this comp really falls flat. Juno isn't ever going to kill XZ or Diana while Lulu is up, and Nana can't really do any damage either.

Second hit I'm curious about is this one:

I threw this together for this offense and I've tested it a lot in our test tower. So far the only way I've lost in the tests is by Orion vio proccing out of the freeze, then S3'ing and stripping + def breaking Elucia, and then Fuuki vio procs at least twice while not under Oblivion.

It's possible that I'm facing poorly-built versions of this defense. I'm also not running these monsters built super well either. So my question is, have I just been winning because of poorly built defenses, or does this offense actually seem plausible here?

[vale jay]

Hmmm. this isn't quite right. Dominic does too much damage to simply immunity tank. There's Nana AoE def break. Tesa Racuni talc is my immediate thought. I don't like wind bruiser here. You just end up in a crumby situation where if you get def broken on xing/Diana it feels horrendous

This offense is okay, the khmun elucia delhpoi. It's not the best though. I remember I found a 96-97ish bruiser offense into this defense the other day and I just can't remember it

I will say I feel like khmun Racuni tractor is decent. It's not perfect but should get the job done most of the time.

I don't think this is too bad and honestly I'm a fan of continuing to use things that work for you. Don't overcomplicate it

If it works, fuck it

you have that one crazy mother fucker in your guild that sends mihyang Martina Shaina like 5 fucking times a siege

And never loses with it

So who cares

@meager mauve

I think that if you have better runes this offense is honestly probably pretty good

But that would involve the full offense being 286, elucia being 100 res with a decent amount of accuracy and still having a strong stat spread so Fuuki doesn't yeet her. tough to rune. But again just do what works, don't overcomplicate

My question is why the fuck is unfair bears running this 6 year old defense

This guild rejected me????

[meager mauve]

They were matchmaking you and your goat together. You'd never have met Carry if it weren't for them.

[meager mauve]

So I actually tried this, and you run into problems if Racuni gets def broken because Fuuki still does massive damage with his passive and S2.

Also there's a TON more variability because Orion stuns can really screw you over.

[vale jay]

I'm so glad I got to meet @supple onyx ...

I mean Racuni is more resilient against stuns

You do have double cleanse though which is handy

If it works send it

That's all that matters

These bruiser offenses I always feel are so different when you have really good runes

[meager mauve]

This is also partially where I just say "if they are both runed as well as they can, I think it still works"

[vale jay]

I think

Orion s3

Into strip def break elucia

Into Fuuki s2 into one proc

You can die

If the Fuuki is +water high damage, which shouldn't be too rare

Considering a lot of people will try to tractor this

I feel like

[meager mauve]

It's always been 2 procs with my tests. But I have a -22 wind arti on her, and again, might not be runed well.