Jayke Siege/WGB Thread

[fiery geode]

malite lulu vigor?

lol

[meager mauve]

I only ask because I see it a lot in G1 currently. Many times where towers are full of it still.

[vale jay]

#1049007221427675216 message

[fiery geode]

can do windy now too

[vale jay]

here we go

[meager mauve]

Ah, so Malite Lulu Vigor I've actually thought about using sometimes, but I've always been worried I won't have enough damage.

My Vigor is not runed particularly well at the moment. One of the first things I'm going to work on once I finally farm my Swift set to a better speed.

I've also asked myself, why do that when I have TWL that does the same thing, but better

So that's good to know I'm at least on the right track.

[fiery geode]

tbh if i personally saw this def today i'd just praline it

[meager mauve]

What is Roid's purpose? I see him used in Siege sometimes, but I'm confused on what he's specifically meant to do. He's a bruiser, but he has a taunt. Is he just supposed to be a bruiser, or are there certain comps he is built for?

In most cases where I see Roid, I feel like either Malite or Skogul would be a better choice, such as a bruiser or a tank.

But I'm in G1, so I'm certain that many use him wrong.

Also random question about speed tuning.

I have a Praline that is tuned to a couple of my sniper Damage dealers to prevent them being cut. However, Praline is technically tuned to them rather than the other way around. The best way I could manage it is by leaving 2 speed stats on 2 runes engraved on Praline untouched. If I grind them, then my snipers (who are all +5 on the speed runes they have) will risk being cut between Praline. What do I do in a scenario like this?

[vale jay]

Nothing

If you can't tune your snipers to praline being faster then keep farming until you can

[fiery geode]

he's a solid bruiser. he is able to deal a good amount of damage purely by stacking hp without any investment into atk or crit. him having his own def break helps with this too

his soft cc (atb reduction, provoke) also helps this bruisering part

i think people underrate the role cc can play in bruiser comps

bruisering isn't just about tanking hits and sustaining

if you cc the enemy, you don't have to tank as much

so applying cc is a form of survivability as well

if you look around at other monsters in this game you actually can't find as much or really anything that has this kind of stacked kit that roid has

skogul has none of the cc

malite is similar you are correct. and that is why malite is also commonly used in that role

roid has much higher single target damage than malite though

its to the point where you even use roid against kinkis (with additional support)

[meager mauve]

Thanks for the explanation! That makes a lot of sense. I've been debating on building one but haven't seen much use for him. I'll probably spend some energy to awaken him soonish then. I don't currently have a great answer to Kinki.

[meager mauve]

60% winrate again today in Siege. I believe i was outruned a couple of times, and I made some very VERY silly mistakes to lose 2 of my attacks. But I learned my lesson.

The first Lushen loss was just because the Celia was CRAZY fast. Unfortunately couldn't outspeed with my Teon and Teon was slept. However, I almost won it because Teon was able to resurge and Lushen got his S3 off. It killed Chandra because he defended Jaara, but then Jaara vio procced twice to kill Teon, then hit Mihyang, and then the Celia vio procced 3 times to kill the Mihyang and it was over.

I think my comp was correct, but that my booster was just too slow.

[fiery geode]

this is really bad

you're not learning

do you realize how much speed advantage celia has over you?

[meager mauve]

Hmmm.... I guess I'm not understanding when I can chase vs when I can't.

Because yes, I understand she has a speed advantage, but from what I understood, your fastest Swift set is "are they faster or not" type deal.

[fiery geode]

step 1) identify all the units that are potential swift threats

a swift threat is a monster that if takes turn 1 against you, can fuck up your team

[meager mauve]

This is part of the problem. I don't know how Celia is built.

[fiery geode]

you dont' need to know

read her skills

lets start with skill 1

chance to put monster to sleep and absorb atb

what happens if she sleeps lushen

is your team fucked?

yes your team is fucked, she is a swift threat

example of monster that is not a swift threat: riley

what happens if riley takes turn 1 against you?

if she does s1, nothing happens and you can still lushen and win. if she does s2, nothing happens and you can still lushen and win. if she does s3, nothing happens and you can still lushen and win

[meager mauve]

In my defense, she wasn't on swift. I saw that she was on Vio in a guildmate's replay of the exact same defense.

Which was partially why I thought maybe I could outspeed. I probably should have asked for speeds of my guildmates' monsters to do some quick math on it, but I saw the vio and thought I had a chance.

[fiery geode]

ok that does make it less bad

[meager mauve]

I probably shoudl have led with that. Sorry.

[fiery geode]

you do need to realize though that you are super slow

i forgot, what was your teon spd again?

[meager mauve]

I think it's 285 without skills and towers.

[fiery geode]

+190?

[meager mauve]

Yes.

[fiery geode]

yea so tbh i would just not race anything that you dont have at least a +10 spd advantage on

[meager mauve]

So, in other words, I'm not supposed to race with Lushen ever, since Teon is so incredibly slow at the moment.

I would need a faster booster to be able to race with a Fat Lushen comp.

[fiery geode]

no? like you can lushen this

there's no speed lead

[coarse valve]

In regards to this, some times there are exceptions to rules i've seen. Why cant he go with the logic: She has to be on swift, she has to use s1, she has the land the sleep

That seems like many if's no?

[meager mauve]

Yes. That makes sense. By race I mean SPD leads. If there's no Speed Lead then I can usually Lushen safely.

But if there is, I should probably look for some other cleave to use, because Teon isn't fast enough to reliably race.

[fiery geode]

again

it is possible for a def to have a spd lead

and no spd threat

[coarse valve]

I'm using this logic

[fiery geode]

yes you're right, sometimes you can risk it, for celia specifically though no she's a huge swift threat, check her passive. i was just using an example going 1 step at a time.

[coarse valve]

Got it!

[meager mauve]

I'm going to write this down because I keep forgetting that idea.

In my spreadsheet with cleave checklists.

[fiery geode]

for example

so technically as i mentioned the last time a few days ago

a spd threat needs to be able to both strip and cc

because you can assume that maybe the offense is full will or something

(even though clearly most cleaves aren't)

so if you look at all 3 monsters there

they either strip

or cc

but not both

so actually none of these are spd threats either, even though this def has a spd lead

and you can lushen it too

[meager mauve]

This is one part I have trouble with. What if the speed threat has just CC? Am I just then planning on running a full will offense?

And does this restrict which cleaves I can use because they must be on Will?

[fiery geode]

this gets a bit nuanced/advanced

at higher levels this is definitely a potential trap, where people run units with just cc or even big dmg and no strip as a swift trap

but at lower levels it's a safe assumption that people won't run monsters that only have cc and no strip on swift

and you don't need to build your cleaves on will

so really for you

the only 2 types of swift threats you need to be wary about

are boosters (for example eshir)

or monsters that can both strip and cc in 1 skill (for example clara or cichlid)

[meager mauve]

Got it. That makes a lot of sense.

[fiery geode]

there are tons of lds in this game and you'll find that a lot of them can be a swift threat

like the celia lol

there's too many to name

[meager mauve]

Yes. I have started to notice that.

I've started remembering names and skills of common Siege monsters, but LD's are a mystery to me.

[fiery geode]

there's not too many elemental ones though

[meager mauve]

Heck, I just saw Wedjat today and I still don't understand the wording of his passive.

[fiery geode]

and you'll have them memorized soon enough

wedjat is a booster thats all you need to know

[meager mauve]

What does the wording on his passive mean when it says "beneficial effects on the target"

Oh. easy enough.

[fiery geode]

the more buffs members on his team have

the bigger they get boosted

so every turn wedjat gets he boosts his whole team by at least 10%

for every buff, its 5% more

wedjat's s2 gives his entire team 2 buffs

so if he uses s2

his whole team gets boosted 20%

if wedjat uses s1 and not s2

his whole team gets boosted 10%

[meager mauve]

I have 2 other questions about my attacks. First is about the Coco Riley Camilla defense. I cleaved with Tiana Poseidon and it worked. But I am not sure if that works commonly because Camilla seems like she could 1v3.

Am I correct in assuming I just outruned this guy?

[fiery geode]

if you have a well runed galleon tiana pos then 3v1ing cami should be ok

but otherwise yea its a bit risky

if you want to cleave it i would just double snipe, but use hongyeon as the booster

you don't need a spd lead since none of these are spd threats

so for example, cov taru hongyeon

save cami for last

hongyeon can tank cami

if you want to bruiser it

atk buffed coco does insane dmg

the only thing that i would feel comfortable with tanking coco

is ermeda

so for example you can do something like ermeda lala +1 (any dd thats not wind or fire)

[meager mauve]

Oooo I haven't even looked at Ermeda before. That's a great idea. I could use a 2nd wind tank.

[meager mauve]

No Hongyeon built. I think that might be my next build for another double snipe comp.

And final thing is on the Douglas Adriana Sonia defense. I ran Leo Byung Lulu.

Leo cuts Sonia's damage, but the problem is that she could still ignore defense on Lulu because she doesn't have tons of defense.

And I'm not sure who else I could have run here to tank Sonia.

[fiery geode]

ermeda is a pretty niche/specialized tank. only good for tanking fire

[meager mauve]

Because I need heals for Leo since I don't have him on Vamp currently.

[fiery geode]

theres like only 2 relevant units on def here that she would tank, coco and fire kass

otherwise ermeda base stats aren't great and she isn't a good tank in general

for example if she gets def broken and there's also a wind DD

ermeda gets in trouble

but in this case the only other dd is cami, so cami wont hit ermeda and ermeda will be fine

[meager mauve]

Or does Leo cut Sonia's damage hard enough that Lulu will usually survive, even if Sonia ignores defense?

[fiery geode]

leo will cut sonia dmg by half but that can still be a lot of damage

you can find some other way to tank the hit, for example triana

personally i would hit this with mihyang kahli triana

find some monster that always crits so you can safely kill sonia

[meager mauve]

I actually figured during this Siege that building another Triana might be beneficial. One on a CD build because I could use her offensively.

[fiery geode]

if you're willing to rune up some monster to have enough def to not get def ignored by sonia, thats fine too but that takes a lot of work

since you rpobably wont have any monster naturally runed with super high def

but if you wanted to, could use your abellio for example

and just rune him triple def

[meager mauve]

I don't think I have enough defense runes for it to work without giving him broken runes at the moment.

Plus I'd rather run a second Triana because it would work in more places and could be a good offensive weapon if I build it properly.

[fiery geode]

just looking at your box

another cute team you could do

is like byung psama +1

[meager mauve]

Oooo I could run that with Iunu and then have a suicide comp with Byung to clean up. That could be fun.

[fiery geode]

yea

[meager mauve]

Different subject, I've started to find monsters I need to build, and I'd like to know where my focus should be, since I feel like these are all equally important.

[fiery geode]

oh you have tons of cute monsters to use

wind hacker can be used here too

[meager mauve]

Hmmm.... I've not really looked into him. Is that the one that reflects damage?

[fiery geode]

yea if you do wind hacker +2 fire

sonia kills herself

[fiery geode]

build any of the units i mentioned that you dont have built or need another of

[meager mauve]

These are just some random units I've seen that I could use. You did just mention Wind Hacker, and that seems like a fun unit, and I think I could find some other uses for him.

But I'm curious if I should be prioritizing monsters like a DoT team with Rica and Moogwang over something more niche like Jubelle for Kinkis or a dupe Triana on CD build.

[fiery geode]

everything valid just up to what you want to focus on

the only thing you should drop off that list is dupe khmun

theres too many spd lead alternatives these days like mihyang

[meager mauve]

How would I go about runing Wind Hacker? I'm thinking 2 ways. 1 would be high CR, high accuracy, and very fast. Debuffer. Probably SPD/CD or CR/anything. The other way I'm thinking is SPD/HP/HP or SPD/HP/Acc and make him a support w/ 100 res. Vio/Will if possible, but if not maybe Vio/focus or vio/blade for extra stats

I'm leaning towards the SPD/HP/Acc build because he seems like a really good defense unit too.

[fiery geode]

hes probably a bit too niche if you have a lot of stuff to work on

you typically run him pretty squishy, can be fast/high dmg/high acc

because the point is for him to take a big hit and reflect it on the enemy

people have tried him on def but we haven't seen any great success

[vale jay]

This is really elegant booster choice

To be honest
I looked at the coco def and my thought was just cov Kona harm

Just shoot coco and call it a day

It would just take a second to kill riley

Could do shren as well I guess

[meager mauve]

I'm going to start working on a CD Triana for Attacks and maybe as a defense mon for later. From what I can see on jx9's swarfarm, it looks like a CD Triana build is SPD/CD/HP. Will Triana function more like a bruiser, or is the HP mostly for survivability? From the stats, it looks like the idea is kind of like Khmun, doesn't need 100 CR, doesn't need super high ATK.

@vale jay (hope it's okay to ping you directly) I'd like to get your input since you mentioned you've seen them before.

[vale jay]

sure no problem

Generally you do 85 crate ballpark. SPD/CDmg/HP

110k-120k eHP

Usually you use two ATK main artis because triana's benefits disproportionately from them due to her low base ATK

Eventually playing on 5 tick (286 SPD) is good, especially because her s1 damage scales with speed, but when you are starting just go 6 tick (239 speed)

[meager mauve]

First WGB today was pretty simple to decide the teams to use. Poor rune quality with poor defense choices meant I probably could have picked any 3 random units and won most of these.

[meager mauve]

2nd WGB was pretty good too. 1st battle the Tiana was super fast, and despite having a speed lead she still managed to move first, and then the team was well-tuned. Perhaps against a Tiana I should just expect it to be on the fastest swift set they have?

3R on this WGB, on a second look, I realied that Bulldozer/Copper/Imesety would have been a better choice.

[tiny orchid]

no tiana has way too low base speed to benefit from fastest swift. i would have just lushened it, that def is not great

[meager mauve]

I think you're right. Probably best to run Lushen on 1R and then snipe on 4R instead. Should have swapped them.

[fiery geode]

i dont know what you mean by

Will Triana function more like a bruiser, or is the HP mostly for survivability

maybe you are misunderstanding what a bruiser is, having an hp scaling skill is not a requirement to be a bruiser (although it certainly helps)

a bruiser is just any monster that can deal some damage and be able to take some hits. you don't expect a bruiser to 1 shot anything, and you need a bruiser to not get 1 shot by any enemy monster

there are tons of pure atk scaling bruisers in this game

like Khmun, doesn't need 100 CR, doesn't need super high ATK.

Atk on khmun and triana are different. khmun really doesn't need atk at all, his main dmg comes from his skill 2 which has 0 atk scaling. triana's dmg still has atk scaling so atk is much more important on her

[fiery geode]

r1 and r5 not safe

i wouldn't lushen ariel, easy for him to live and also good chance he's on nem too so could cut in and heal before mihyang goes

poseidon into triple wind, with 2 of them being tanky healers, is crazy

[meager mauve]

Ah. I was confused for sure. I thought bruiser was HP scaling only. Thank you for the clarification.

[fiery geode]

yes he can't glance with s3 but not being able to glance isn't the same as 100% crit. you can miss crits now, plus any sort of cleanup/followup becomes insanely difficult should you miss some def breaks

[meager mauve]

That's my inexperience with monster builds. I didn't know Ariel could be on Nem. Also him being tanky enough to survive Lushen seemed less likely to me because he scales of Def, and I can ignore Def.

[fiery geode]

yes you can expect tiana to be fast but this kind of loss isn't that bad, it's still a correct team

i dont like r3, you need a cleanser. replace carc with lulu, tetra, lala, etc

r4 is same lushen mistake as earlier

really bad choice to lushen

[meager mauve]

I didn't have any cleaves left really that could deal with tanky healers well. I had already used Dozer/Copper/Imesety.

I'm not sure I have a great answer for Odin at the moment.

[fiery geode]

r5 is not the worst but its kinda ehhhh to julie this, yes carc dies but high chance rica is on tanky will and will survive. cp being wind will survive. easy for rica cp to 2v3 given all the cc they have

[meager mauve]

Now that you say that, it seems obvious. I just saw that I could outspeed everything with the Julie comp and that the only swift threat they had was CP, who I could beat.

Again, inexperience with monster builds. I didn't know tanky ricas were a thing honestly.

[fiery geode]

if it s a cc type monster then its a potentially tanky monster

because they dont need to build dmg

[meager mauve]

By this I'm assuming you're referring to the fact that Mo Long and Abellio can survive the Lushen nuke and then Abellio could be on Nem and cut with heals?

[fiery geode]

yes and this is even worse since abellio doesn't even need nem to cut

cp isn't a swift threat btw

yes he has a strip and a cc skill, but they're not on the same skill

i would rearrange your cleaves for the second set

you can julie the galleon tiana zerath

praline the mo abellio douglas

and lushen the carc rica cp

i know a lot of this sounds scarier on first thought and is counter intuitive

but if you think through and play each set out in your head

you'll realize why it's safer

[meager mauve]

I keep forgetting that you can't set first skill on WGB. I just kind of assumed that I'd need full will if I wanted to cleave it, which I don't currently have.

[fiery geode]

against tiana - julie bernard is probably one of your fastest spd contesting racing comps. so if you're afraid of fast tiana, this is your best chacne to outspeed

it is true zerath is tanky

but zerath's ai makes it so that if he's injured, he'll use S2 (heal) and not s3

so julie nukes, kills galleon, damages zerath and tiana

tiana s3's which does nothing

zerath s2s which heals himself

now you go again and can clean up. you can always keep damaging zerath so his s3 is never strong

and then lushening 2 fire - it's actually ok. there's no spd threat here so you don't have to worry about contesting spd. CP will die to lushen. carc and rica may survive, but mihyang can definitely finish off carc before he moves

now you 3v1 rica which is safe because you have a mihyang that has cleanse + heal

if you want to make it even safer, use kona instead of teon

[fiery geode]

the first skill setting on siege doesn't even apply in regular season, it only works in tourney, and is only kept there otherwise for testing

[meager mauve]

Oh that's something I didn't know. So even if I set first skill on say, Khmun/Skogul/Vigor to be Vigor's S2, he will use whatever the AI decides, and that first skill will only work in tournament?

[fiery geode]

yes

[meager mauve]

This doesn't apply to every healer, does it?

[fiery geode]

correct there are some healers that are "smart healers" and others that are not

typically if a heal only heals and has no buffs, its generally a smart heal skill

if a heal skill also has buffs, then it's not a smart heal skill

there may be exceptions, also these rules change depending on area. for example some monsters like bella have different AI in dungeons than pvp areas

there's no way you could have known this beforehand. so yea this is just an experience thing

[meager mauve]

Ah. So for example, Triana = not smart heal. Rina = smart heal, as examples.

[fiery geode]

yes

but like i said there are exceptions, i think like with beast monks for example

even if they are injured

they still may end up using S3 rather than their S2 heal skill

actually nvm i may be wrong about that

what i was thinking of was vigor/eshir

they can definitely use s3 even if they are low on hp, but this makes sense because s2 has buffs and is not a smart heal

[meager mauve]

Got it. If a monster has a non smart heal, is it random if they use it first or not on full health?

I imagine if they are damaged at all they will use the heal just because it has buffs + heals.

[fiery geode]

if its a non smart heal, its random. so they can use it even at full health, and they can not use it even if low health

if its a smart heal, they will always use the heal skill at low health, and will never use it at high health

[meager mauve]

Okay, that means that running something like Kunite into Vigor wouldn't guarantee that he S3's Kunite first, for example.

[fiery geode]

correct

[meager mauve]

Very cool. I'll try to remember that, but I doubt it will come into play THAT much when I'm just attempting to cleave on T1 anyway.

[meager mauve]

Final question, what do I need the cleanser here for? Grego speed debuff + stun, and Leo DoT? I didn't think those were impactful enough to need a dedicated cleanser, especially since Carc could increase glancing hit chances.

[fiery geode]

what? you need something to keep eshir alive

grego has def break and stun

iris has stun and silence

this has nothing to do with carc

[meager mauve]

Oh right. I forgot that if he's def broken it guarantees he's attacked.

One of these days I'm going to post and it will all be good attacks, I swear.

That's my first mini goal. All attacks given the jx9 seal of approval. 😉

[fiery geode]

oh you also asked about odin

so in general you don't necessarily need anti revive skill to deal with odin or revivers/elad

you can bruiser and just kill stuff twice

especially odin, a lot of cleaves against odin involve sniping him twice and then 3v2ing the rest

if you dont want to cleave, you can do bruisers with something like tesa + triana + healer

odin doesn't have high sustained damage

he just has 1 big nuke every now and then

other bruiser options include stacknig tanky wind units with triana such as elad, byung, diana, xing, etc

and you can build things to even withstand atk buffed 5 stack odin nuke

however in this specific case with odin + elad, you can't double snipe odin

easiest way would be to use monsters with anti revive, like meph or raki

i dont think you have any other than eliza, so you could use her (for example eliza bastet kahli

but i wouldnt build eliza just for this

and then finally

this def in particular sucks and you can probably just solo it with a single garo

on destroy vamp

i was just mostly talking about these sorts of defs in general

[meager mauve]

I just barely got Water Yuji, but that wouldn't work against an Odin that well.

[meager mauve]

Yes, Eliza would be very niche and would be wasted time. If I had Elesia would that be a better monster to use? Or in general should I just avoid using any kind of niche monster for anti-revive until I get Raki/Meph?

[fiery geode]

who is elesia

[meager mauve]

Woops! Typo. Alesia. Light Cyborg.

[fiery geode]

alesia is useful but as a tank not a dd

so in general you don't necessarily need anti revive skill to deal with odin or revivers/elad

we can talk in specifics, this def you can solo with a garo

if you want it to go faster you can do booster nuke garo and snipe elad first

[vale jay]

I know jx gave feedback already
Just want to say dislike every single hit on this list except #2

[meager mauve]

I could use all the feedback I can get.

And thus, I have my mini goal #2, get both Therion and jx9 to give me the nod for my attacks. XD

[vale jay]

Just to give my feedback
As jx said you should not be lushening Ariel, or really these tanky defenses in general without mirinae
#3 can lose - full bomb damage seara can kill you if it goes on long enough/enough procs. I would do something more like imesety copper rina if I am going for a f2p angle. Just make sure that imesety and copper are not paper. Give them enough bulk so they don't die to random S2 from byungchul. There is no swift threat so you can immediately remove seara.

(the reason I say #3 can lose and want to stress this is because I have loss trauma syndrome, I never forget my losses, you won't encounter this for a long time but again if we are looking to go above and beyond, we prepare)

It's quite unlikely you will lose to this by the way, I want to point that out, even if it is full bomb damage seara you are still probably tanking through it and living

But we prepare for the bullshit

There are a lot of solutions to this defense but just a simple one. I'm sure there are plenty much more refined solutions

#4 sucks so bad and makes me very annoyed, I really, really dislike #4. It demonstrates poor understanding and complacency. And displays exactly what I am saying about you overusing LCL and brainlessly throwing it at stuff

This defense is mind numbingly simple to solve

[meager mauve]

Surprisingly, this was something I thought about. I thought that Seara doesn't have ATK boost, so the bomb will do less damage. But I do see how it can end up with a loss. I will remember this for next time.

[vale jay]

Without atk buff it's less likely

Much less likely

But I know your rune quality

You get gapped anything can happen

[meager mauve]

Exactly.

[vale jay]

Let's

Properly solve #4

And not use random stupid garbage presets

Please

[meager mauve]

Maybe I need some more help understanding why LCL is "bad". I kind of view it as a worse Lushen. Just kind of throw it anywhere you want.

[vale jay]

To explain why this is so bad

Do you know what Molly does

[fiery geode]

oh you're right about #3 the rina hit was a really bad offense

[vale jay]

You are introducing RNG into a defense that does not need any RNG to be added to it to be solved, at all. There are so so so many solutions

[fiery geode]

rina doesn't have enough sustain on her own, you can't expect shields to tank forever regardless of atk buff or not

[vale jay]

++++

If you bruiser here like this you would bring Triana

[fiery geode]

needed to replace carc or tesa with something else that has cleanse AND heal

[vale jay]

I thought about tesa Triana rina but I feel like this feels horrible

Just because shushu is here

I mean I'm sure it doesn't matter right

Cdmg Triana hit shushu and you are gonna win

But it feels extremely unrefined

[vale jay]

First of all I will preface this by saying I hate lcl because of what it has done to siege player's brains, LCL causes so much brain rot and complacency

I don't like preset warriors

But that's not what this is about

It has nothing to do with me disliking the offense

I'm disliking it right now because of exactly what I said

Brain rot and complacency

But again

Did you read Molly's skills?

[meager mauve]

I didn't. I forgot about the glancing hit part of Molly's passive.

[vale jay]

Okay

Have you read hwadam's skills?

[meager mauve]

Yes. Hwadam's passive makes it so that he basically takes damage instead of the opposing monster once they're low health.

[vale jay]

Because if I made this defense (I never would) my idea would be
Let's beat the lazy cleave players
...which is exactly what you are being

So do you know how to deal with Dominic on siege defense?

[meager mauve]

Any instance where I've dealt with him has exclusively been a snipe (Kahli for example) or an AoE Cleave (LCL or Lushen)

So no, not really.

[vale jay]

Okay let's learn

Dominic does a shitton of hits

I will teach you how to bruiser

Dominic is wind

So three angles for tanking this

1st is the most common school of thought. Most people will use rina into Dominic. This isn't a bad solution, Dominic is wind and he hits so many times that eventually you are gonna get crit
But I don't like rina as much as I like the second angle
Talc (you've probably never heard of him) is my preferred Dominic tank. His passive deals very well with Dominic, and I also like how he kinda likes runes that not a whole lot of other monsters use
The third one which I also don't like is Camilla. This is a bit more of a hot take I think but I don't think Camilla is a good option for tanking Dominic. She can easily get destroyed and just lose. Have had some disagreements in the past over this one, but the permanent damage reduction talc offers (assuming proper build and not omega gapped) is fantastic

To elaborate a bit more on rina. I don't like how if you get unlucky that Dominic just destroys the fuck out of you. Your shield is based on your max HP. So you gradually get a lot weaker if the fight drags for too long

If you prefer rina, which maybe you would, that's fine, I personally like talc a lot more, but both are valid

So we chose rina to solve the defense above either way, so talc would be used here if you are going this route

We have three mons with passives that are annoying
So I immediately think of tesa. Molly can cleanse but not insanely frequently to the point of where you have to worry about tesa's usefulness (plus there's no immunity)

Then we need a healer that cleanses and has good healing output

I personally think cdmg harmonia fits the bill pretty well here and also reduces the duration of the fight, which is desirable

She also brings an excellent lead skill to pair with your talc

But let's say you don't have harm/don't want to use/etc

Plenty of other options

Basically any non water cleanser that has decent sustain is gonna work here

Can you give some examples?

In case it isn't obvious - tesa needs to be on destroy here. Cdmg harmonia would also be on destroy

[meager mauve]

Hmmm.... Off the top of my head, Lala, maybe Delphoi, and ChaCha.

[vale jay]

If you don't have runes for cdmg harmonia, that's ok. Regular support harm will get the job done, or if you even just want to add a crate slot 4 and some random atk% slot 6 you are gonna be contributing more with your harm

Both hwadam and Molly are incapable of contributing significant damage in any way

[meager mauve]

Though Lala/Chacha might not be as good because their sustain isn't amazing without S1's and revenges.

[vale jay]

Lala is not bad

[meager mauve]

Riley doesn't cleanse super fast, so I don't think she'd work as well here.

[vale jay]

Uh

Actually you are missing it

Try again, this statement is not even correct btw

If you bring chacha what happens

[meager mauve]

Oh Racuni could also work. Just realized.

[vale jay]

Sure, that's not bad either

I actually think chacha is a pretty elegant solution if you rune it slightly modified

[meager mauve]

Chacha would get hit by Molly and Hwadam exclusively. Also Chacha would heal Talc/Rina with S2.

[vale jay]

And

You bring the atk swap

Which makes Dominic not do damage

[meager mauve]

Doesn't Dominic scale off of HP?

[sleek wigeon]

Dominic (Wind Weapon Master)

Wikia

1. Glaive Slash

Attacks the enemy 2 times to disturb the target's HP recovery for 2 turns with a 30% chance each.

Levels

Damage +5%
Effect Rate +5%
Damage +10%
Damage +10%
Effect Rate +15%

Multiplier

1.9*{ATK} x2

2. Weakness Shot

Attacks the enemy to leave a Branding effect for 2 turns and attacks 3 more times. The damage increases as the enemy's HP condition is bad. (Reusable in 4 turns)

Levels

Damage +5%
Damage +10%
Damage +10%
Damage +10%
Cooltime Turn -1

Multiplier

{ATK}*(3.1 - 1.2*{Target Current HP %}) x4

3. Improvisation (Passive)

Attacks additionally, dealing damage equal to 100% of your Attack Power when attacking an enemy on your turn. This attack increases the damage by 100% if your HP exceeds 50% and recovers the HP by the damage dealt if it's 50% or below. [Automatic Effect]

Levels

Damage +5%
Damage +15%

Multiplier

2.0*{ATK} (Fixed)

provided by SWARFARM

[meager mauve]

No he doesn't.

Hmm.... Why did I think he did?

[vale jay]

I don't know you made me think I was crazy for a second

[meager mauve]

Probably just poor reading comprehension

[vale jay]

But generally he is built extremely high atk

?therion

[lapis pecan]

idiot advisor nice reading comprehension

[vale jay]

So yeah I actually

Think chacha

Is outstanding

[meager mauve]

OH I know why. I was confusing that with maximillian/other weapon masters that have scaling enemy max HP passives.

I got some wires crossed and thought Dominic was max hp scaling from that I guess. Reading is easy if you just do it right.

[vale jay]

239 triple revenge (just for the extra cleansing) sounds nice

[fiery geode]

well he can be built with decently high hp and given add dmg by hp artis

so technically he can scale on hp 🙂

[vale jay]

He generally is built pretty high hp honestly

[meager mauve]

I have been working on farming pretty much only GBAH. I don't have enough leftover Vio runes to rune a ChaCha properly. I will need to work on that.

Eventually....

[vale jay]

Violent chacha

[vale jay]

.

But yeah

Revenge runes don't drop from blue man either

[meager mauve]

Rev runes I don't even think about right now because I have so much farming to do with GBAH/DBAH before NBAH

[vale jay]

My friend

[meager mauve]

But you're right. Triple Rev is best. I just need to get there. XD

[vale jay]

I have great news for you

Would you like to hear it

[meager mauve]

I dunno. Are we talking great news if you're down bad, or great news if you're having the best day of your life?

😉

[vale jay]

Dunno have to finish my PhD before I can answer that for you

I only have my BA done

That being said it is good news

[meager mauve]

I would like to hear good news.

Considering posting here always makes my stomach drop because I know I'm about to get reamed for not using my brain. 😉

But I do it anyway because I want to improve!

[vale jay]

It's just because I care and am passionate - don't worry. You are learning.

Check this video out

[meager mauve]

Wait, did I seriously get destroy/revenge swapped?

I did.

[vale jay]

Who the fuck farms destroy runes from necro

Lumel is love

[fiery geode]

who plays sw with the sound on..

[vale jay]

Not me it's bug

I have no idea I'm not even capping

[meager mauve]

I honestly have no idea why this game is so difficult for me to understand. I'm not an idiot. But for some reason with this game I am. I make silly stupid mistakes all over the place.

I mean, I'm able to play other games at really high levels with basically 1-2 months of practice and it's all good. Heck, I'm even mechanically able to get good at games with a few months of practice. For some reason my brain is just not working when I play this game. I've been trying to figure out why it's so hard.

[vale jay]

I have the worst imposter syndrome you can imagine in this game. I can relate. Be easier on yourself. This game is a gigantic puzzle. I still struggle super hard with understanding concepts well known with advanced siege players

Give yourself time

Here's video showing no 🧢

Look at this wtf

[fiery geode]

wait is this steam version

[vale jay]

No I'm on my phone

lmao

[fiery geode]

huh weird

[meager mauve]

Does the sound come through on your phone?

[vale jay]

I'm on the bus on the way home

I know!!

[meager mauve]

Or just on a video?

[vale jay]

No my sound is totally muted lmao it's the weirdest bug

I have had so many people comment on this actually

[meager mauve]

So you don't hear any sound, but if you video record you do? Might be the capturing software.

[vale jay]

It's hilarious

[meager mauve]

Anyway, that's beside the point.

[vale jay]

I'm just using my phone x)

Yeah

Anyways

[vale jay]

^^^^^

Just give yourself time

Trust me I have done stupider offenses than you can imagine

One of my career peaks

Which

I got made fun of for a solid 6+ months for doing

Was trying to tank a suiki with rina

I think WGB especially is just so different right

It feels super casual despite being infinitely superior to siege as a game mode and that it should be the most important GvG content

Just because it's not real time and you can sit there for 3 hours deciding a team

But really WGB is some of the best opportunities to learn

Because like I said even with just the rina talc thing
Ok we use rina here. Let's come up with a non rina counter to this one

That's super healthy for us as siege players learning

Unfortunately what instead usually happens is we check for defenses that we can preset warrior through the fastest possible

I don't know why the phenomena occurs but it seems this way with like literally everyone

WGB is the best way to improve.

[meager mauve]

I do want to clarify that I'm not using presets because I just want to get through fast. I'm attempting to cleave as often as I can because that's what I'm told in the guide happens to beginner PvP players. They don't cleave often enough.

[vale jay]

It's not siege unless we are talking about the speed of switching runes, getting in for a hit, etc

Which

Realistically

Is irrelevant for everyone outside of what

Top 10?

If that?

[vale jay]

Remember how I said different players can have different opinions and solutions

I am pure blood bruiser player through and through, I literally didn't cleave until like.. this year

Bruisering is good

Especially for the non modern defenses

I actually prefer cleaving these days and what jx writes is completely true

He probably was like looking through my siege thread with 10000 messages and thought
What if they just used Lushen one time

I was that stupid new player that did not cleave enough

So it's completely accurate

Then I got introduced to cocaine

I mean entrei

And he changed my perspective entirely on bruisering vs cleaving

Basically I learned

[meager mauve]

I used to pretty much bruiser exclusively, but after reading through the intro in the #1048719420870107227 guide for the umpteenth time, I realized I was barely cleaving at all, and only in very specific, nearly unrealistic circumstances.

[vale jay]

Why would I bruiser

Which introduces the possibility of procs

When I can just kill instantly and have no problems

Best player is a combination of both

So I agree with both perspectives, try not to dismiss one fully, they both absolutely have a place

Anyways my hands hurt, I'm done typing

Hope this helps

[meager mauve]

Thank you very much for your advice. Much appreciated.

[meager mauve]

Siege today was rather interesting. I haven't seen many of these comps before and didn't really know how to go about handling them.

In case that's a little hard to see:

1.) Felt like this was just a safe comp. Dias into Liu Mei meant he's never going to die.

2.) I liked 570RM here because either Sonia or Jun can kill him, and Khmun/Racuni can 2v2 the other set. Sonia was runed really poorly and Jun moved faster than she did. She also did no damage. Even if she was runed to be crazy strong, 570RM makes her kill herself, and Khmun/Racuni can 2v2 the Praha/Jun.

3.) I have adjusted this comp to have Will runes on everyone. If I just run full will on this comp, I win this.

4.) A rerun. I knew that my Racuni could outspeed by watching the replay of my first loss. Covenant didn't one shot the Chandra, but his monsters were runed rather poorly and didn't even kill the Covenant, much less Khmun/Racuni.

5.) @vale jay I'm sure you will hate this one. I felt like LCL was a good pick here though. Betta dies to Leah, meaning no revives from her, Theo is left with 1 hp and dies to anything after his attack, and Kahli kills Perna. Also if Theo AND perna decide to attack Kahli, even safer. This is introducing RNG though

6.) This was a complete and total accident. I did not mean to run this comp into the Tesa Giselle Riley and I only won because his rune quality is so trash and I got really lucky. I meant to hit "cancel" and I misclicked and hit "start". Next time I will set up my monsters once I'm ready to go. My original idea was that Carc can hit through invincibility, so running him means Giselle's invincibility isn't as good. I liked Malite tanking Tesarion, but I figured Lala might not be the best to help Malite. I was going to look at my ChaCha and see if I could run ChaCha instead and steal Tesa's attack, but I wasn't sure that woudl work either. I was still brainstorming when I clicked "start". :/

7.) Felt like an easy snipe candidate. Sniping Chow/Jeanne meant that Perna was last alive, and Praline is nice and tanky to withstand Perna's attacks.

8.) I honestly think I got unlucky. This comp seems like it should work just fine. The Orion procced 5 times in a row, the Masha procced 4 times in a row (once out of stun, too) and the Seara procced 3 times in a row, with the 3rd one detonating a bomb on Tetra. But I am very open to admitting the comp was bad.

9.) I tried this knowing that the Orion was slower than my Bernard because of the previous fight. However, I think this guy had me outruned. The only thing that happened was Masha dismounted. My Julie definitely has room to improve.\

10.) This was just a super easy lushen candidate. Defense just sucks.

70% is not what I was hoping to get this Siege, since our guild dropped to P3. I'm a little ashamed that I was unable to perform better.

[vale jay]

no i don't like this :(

but it's not that bad

this is a bit more of an acceptable usage of it

[vale jay]

no this format is better

#2 is a bit too creative

i don't think you needed to think so hard here

you can just lushen/julie this

maybe julie isn't as good here actaully

because of sonia's passive

but

i think lushen works fine

there's a lot of simple cleaves

praline works too

good job with the creativity though

hmm so wait

#3

you can lose this right

can't you even with will

long day

let me think about it

oh

i think we just remove bellenus and it's pretty simple right

i'm sure it's very hard to lose from there

[vale jay]

add numbers to your hits by the way

sec let me find

here

this is how i used to do it

[meager mauve]

Yeah. Plan was boost Dozer to kill Bellenus. Copper then hits Chandra and CP can't kill anything.

[vale jay]

do this, it's clean and simple

[meager mauve]

Where do you find that screen?

[vale jay]

uh

you're in swgt right

[meager mauve]

Yes.

[vale jay]

moment

it's been a second!

[meager mauve]

No problem. I was looking for something like that but I didn't see anywhere other than the one I posted.

[vale jay]

got it

[meager mauve]

I was worried about Lushen because if Lushen doesn't kill Sonia after she kills Mihyang, I might have an issue.

[vale jay]

swift mihyang no?

28 swift mihyang doesn't get outsped forsure

anyways

[meager mauve]

WIthout the speed lead I suppose that's true....

[vale jay]

go to swgt, click the 3 little bars in top right, under 3mdc go to battle logs

then put in your name under player

then search

then go to details

[meager mauve]

Ah! Much better. One second then....

[vale jay]

here

👁️

[vale jay]

there we go

nice

[meager mauve]

Thank you. That's much better. I'll build out an image template for this to make it easier next time....

[vale jay]

this is perfect

[meager mauve]

Well I mean the numbers. I don't want to write 10-1 every time because I'm lazy.

I'm an IT guy. I automate everything.

[vale jay]

i approve

of the laziness

ok i'm tired so i won't go through everything

let me just

hit a few key points

tomorrow ill prob do rest

#6 is wrong

mmm

so

i feel like for this one we need just to fucking kill giselle

get rid of that shit

[meager mauve]

My explanation on 6 is pretty interesting.

[vale jay]

let me see

oh LOL

haha

i've done this before

hahaha

well

[meager mauve]

I was just playing around with the units, trying to see what looked good.

And lo and behold I've learned my lesson.

[vale jay]

unfortunately even with carc you aren't going to always be hitting the def break right

because

[meager mauve]

Yeah. I got extremely lucky.

[vale jay]

we have a riley

here

man long day

alright let's

think about this

so we have tesa

[meager mauve]

Both Riley and Tesa procced out of immunity and then Carc 1 shot them while in S2. Definitely not a comp.

[vale jay]

let me get you another picture that one must have

[meager mauve]

If you'd rather just chill and wait until tomorrow that's fine. There's no hurry. 😄

[vale jay]

so

we do not snipe tesa

BUT

we do kill the stupid cookie

get rid of it

[meager mauve]

Hmmm.... I thought about something like Khmun/Racuni/Taru but Tesa eats them alive becuase they need passives.

[vale jay]

kahli songseol covenant is my first thought but it's not perfect and obviously we're relying on cov s2 + kahli s2 killing tesa which

i don't like

hmmm

song isn't needed necessarily

hmmmmm

there's a triple snipe angle here

for sure

oh what's the name of that stupid fucking unit

sec

no we can't lexy it takes too long

uhhhhhh

let me cook

this is not a hard defense my brains just rotting

covenant kona

wind tank

uh

yeonhwa doesn't work great here because

riley immunity

but it's workable

hmmm

i'm sure it's still fine

wait wtf im thinking

it doesn't haveto be wind

[meager mauve]

The only tanks I have that are fire/wind are Kunite and Malite.

I have Skogul but he's more bruiser than Tank.

[vale jay]

triple will 0 speed ermeda

f2p

there you go

dont need skillups either lol

if its swift giselle we go next

unluck

[meager mauve]

Hmmm.... seems reasonable. Only issue is getting the Will runes. hahaha

[vale jay]

double will is probably enough

[meager mauve]

Okay, so let's just say we run triple will 0 speed ermeda and we have kona+Cov. How do we kill Riley.

[vale jay]

she will eventually die

when you don't glance

=)

but that being said if you're scared just throw a random destroy set on covenant

that's what i do

[meager mauve]

I thought so too, but recently I've not glanced, she lives with say 1k hp then vio procs to full health.

[vale jay]

it never ends up being needed

but i get paranoid

nothing can tank attack buff covenant except the mons with big dmg reducing passives

it just takes a minute to both not miss crit and not glance

[meager mauve]

I suppose I could put Carc's runes on Cov and just call it a day.

[vale jay]

and riley won't kill you

she's little happy totem lady

huh carc???

O_O

no use lushens but drop 15% crate somwhere

haha

[meager mauve]

Carc's basically on the same thing, but has destroy currently.

[vale jay]

0 speed

max damage?

carc?

[meager mauve]

Oh you mean fat covenant.

[vale jay]

yeah of course

what are we running some insane violent covenant

whats happening

[meager mauve]

I have 2. I have one that I use for snipe praline comps and one that is fat.

[vale jay]

this is some new meta shit or what

carcano praline?

you explain yourself

[meager mauve]

Nonononono 2 covenants.

[vale jay]

haha

you too?

[meager mauve]

I have 1 cov for praline, 1 fat cov.

And the carc/praline cov have pretty close to the same stats, though Carc is slightly tankier since he's on defense, and he has less CD.

But if you mean fat cov, then yeah, I'd need to find a destroy set somewhere, which I'm running low on because I've already put most of my best ones on other mons.

[vale jay]

you don't even need to

honesttly

just play until you don't glance or miss crit haha

since max crit vs ele disadv is 85

[meager mauve]

Fair. Seems reasonable.

And who knows, maybe kona could land a stun and prevent healing

[vale jay]

that would be very funny

[meager mauve]

1.) Felt like this was just a safe comp. Dias into Liu Mei meant he's never going to die.

2.) I liked 570RM here because either Sonia or Jun can kill him, and Khmun/Racuni can 2v2 the other set. Sonia was runed really poorly and Jun moved faster than she did. She also did no damage. Even if she was runed to be crazy strong, 570RM makes her kill herself, and Khmun/Racuni can 2v2 the Praha/Jun.

3.) I have adjusted this comp to have Will runes on everyone. If I just run full will on this comp, I win this.

4.) A rerun. I knew that my Racuni could outspeed by watching the replay of my first loss. Covenant didn't one shot the Chandra, but his monsters were runed rather poorly and didn't even kill the Covenant, much less Khmun/Racuni.

5.) I felt like LCL was a good pick here though. Betta dies to Leah, meaning no revives from her, Theo is left with 1 hp and dies to anything after his attack, and Kahli kills Perna. Also if Theo AND perna decide to attack Kahli, even safer. This is introducing RNG though

6.) This was a complete and total accident. I did not mean to run this comp into the Tesa Giselle Riley and I only won because his rune quality is so trash and I got really lucky. I meant to hit "cancel" and I misclicked and hit "start". Next time I will set up my monsters once I'm ready to go. My original idea was that Carc can hit through invincibility, so running him means Giselle's invincibility isn't as good. I liked Malite tanking Tesarion, but I figured Lala might not be the best to help Malite. I was going to look at my ChaCha and see if I could run ChaCha instead and steal Tesa's attack, but I wasn't sure that woudl work either. I was still brainstorming when I clicked "start". :/

7.) Felt like an easy snipe candidate. Sniping Chow/Jeanne meant that Perna was last alive, and Praline is nice and tanky to withstand Perna's attacks.

8.) I honestly think I got unlucky. This comp seems like it should work just fine. The Orion procced 5 times in a row, the Masha procced 4 times in a row (once out of stun, too) and the Seara procced 3 times in a row, with the 3rd one detonating a bomb on Tetra. But I am very open to admitting the comp was bad.

9.) I tried this knowing that the Orion was slower than my Bernard because of the previous fight. However, I think this guy had me outruned. The only thing that happened was Masha dismounted. My Julie definitely has room to improve.

10.) This was just a super easy lushen candidate. Defense just sucks.

(reposted so that if someone wanted to offer more advice they wouldn't have to scroll back and forth)

[fiery geode]

3 - who did you kill first with who?

also note that its possible for chandra to be on swift

[meager mauve]

I didnt kill anyone. CP pushback made it so they didnt move and were cced. I would have gone Dozer -> Bellenus Copper -> Chandra

[fiery geode]

thats not right

read cp skill 2

[meager mauve]

Oh. I thought it was only despair and vio since those are the only two builds I hear about. Thank you.

[fiery geode]

what if he uses that?

the only correct order for this is to use dozer on cp first

[meager mauve]

Oh I hadn't even considered stripping the buffs from Imesety. That's a good point.

[fiery geode]

he strips and glances

and if hes on despair he can stun

and if hes on vio he can proc into s3

4 - this is bad as you already realized

non atk buffed cov will not kill chandra

although you can probably use this team and snipe someone else instead of chandra first

5 - no this is really bad to lcl

you dont want to use these aoe cleaves into things that can't die

theo cannot die

perna has a second life

betta makes it risky too because if you miss a def break on her she's going to mess you up

8 - i dont know what you think vero is for

9 - were seara and orion on will?

[meager mauve]

Cleansing the bomb since Tetra only increases its explosion by a turn. Seara can eventually detonate them if they are not cleansed.

[meager mauve]

Yes.

[fiery geode]

vero just isnt a tank

can easily just die

tetra has a cleanse too

[fiery geode]

if you knew seara and orion were on will you shouldn't even try to julie

[meager mauve]

1R: I realized I was at a speed disadvantage and that I was going to lose only after I lost. I forgot about Moore's speed lead. Dumb.

2R: Ariel managed to strip Bulldozer's Def buff and then he didn't one-shot Karnal. I didn't realize you could strip other debuffs than Will if the monster has Will. This comp doesn't work into Ariel. Poor choice again.

3R: Seemed like an easy enough choice. Bernard beats Raoq in base speed. Even if all on Will Julie should still kill at least Raoq, if not Giana too.

4R: Double snipe seemed pretty reasonable here. Praline tanks Perna and as long as Taru kills Chasun they have no chance to survive. Kumar survived the Cov shot, but died after the 2nd shot from Cov. Perna never killed Praline.

5R: I have never seen this defense before and wasn't quite sure how to handle it. Logic was "Make Poseidon and Kumar attack a fire tank and then have Tetra to cleanse + heal silences and speed debuffs." I was lazy and didn't look up Diana's human form abilities until after I was done. Upon looking at Diana's abilities, I realized that Theo was probably the worst possible DD I could have picked. She could have stripped Theo's Endure with her human form S2 and then I just lose.

[meager mauve]

1R: Easy Julie. Defense is so weak that it has to move first to succeed, but Bernard has a speed advantage and can take T1 safely unless the Sylvia is on the fastest possible Swift set they have.

2R: Seems like an Easy Lushen. No speed lead, all pretty squishy. Perna would kill Lushen but die to Mihyang.

3R: Felt like this was a decent bruiser comp. Kill Amarna first to prevent res and the rest is easy since ChaCha can steal Dominic ATK and tank Kinki.

4R: I made an incredibly silly play. I went after Louise first with Bulldozer. I should have gone after Mo Long with Copper. Louise won't heal or invincible Karnal if he hasn't taken any damage yet. Mo Long was the only way I'd lose this because Bulldozer was my win con against Karnal. Really stupid play.

5R: I went with Cov lead since they didn't have speed lead either and Mephisto only has 1 speed extra. I didn't think he'd be built on Swift because he doesn't have any swift threats. Turns out Mephisto WAS built on Swift but he did exactly 0 damage. I focused Abellio -> Mephisto -> Juno since Juno would attack Praline and couldn't really kill Cov. Mephisto survived Taru S3, but I cleaned him up after.

4 Stupid mistakes, and 3 cost me easy wins that I just needed to think about a little more. 1 I got very lucky on and was a bad pick in the first place.

Also didn't use LCL this time, despite wanting to on the Poseidon/Kumar/Diana defense. I wanted to see if I could solve the defense without it.

[haughty siren]

i thought diana is countering theo pretty well no? she can straight up kill him, considering he would be even lower with poseidon hit

[meager mauve]

I just looked at the skills for Diana. Poor choice.

[haughty siren]

her skill 2 is multihit strip, so that might have gone terribly wrong

[meager mauve]

Yes. I just realized that now. I was lazy and that's bad.

She used her multihit S2 first, which is very lucky, and then Theo never had to use his passive again after that initial one, but it could have gone horribly wrong.

So you are correct. Theo was a terrible pick here.

[vale jay]

We aren't learning

Didn't we just talk about praline covenant vs Chandra :/

Hp lead from chasun also

This is not a good hit

I don't care about outcome

I care about quality of teams

[vale jay]

I'm not gonna lie the last defense you can literally just tesa +2 lol

[meager mauve]

No, we talked about non-atk boosted cov into chandra.

[vale jay]

I mean it doesn't have to be tesa either

I feel like just any normal bruiser

Cooks this shit

I would not hit Chandra with HP lead with non fat covenant

[meager mauve]

Hmmm.... I remember reading jx9 saying something to the effect of: "Leads shouldn't change your decision to cleave" or something like that.

It was in another person's help thread.

[vale jay]

Okay

[meager mauve]

But that's what went through my head with that.

[vale jay]

Well that is a broad as fuck statement first of all

[meager mauve]

I promise I'm not attempting to "overrule you". I'm just giving you what I thought about. 😄

[vale jay]

I would Lushen Giselle Sylvia Liu mei if there's no Sylvia lead

I would not if Sylvia lead was there

[meager mauve]

No Sylvia lead means I could really hit it with just about anything.

[vale jay]

HP lead absolutely deters cleaves

How about

Elad Dorothy orion

How would you hit this

You are absolutely incorrect for one reason only

My solution

[meager mauve]

I found it!

[lapis pecan]

jx9

[Message Link](#1239238497420836994 message) to #1239238497420836994
hp lead doesn't make a squishy monster tanky, and will never be the difference between a cleavable def vs non cleavable def

Req. by jaykeblakk. Quote from · Aug 10, 2024, 6:49 PM

[vale jay]

To elad Dorothy orion

[meager mauve]

But this is definitely regarding squishy monsters, not tanky ones.

[vale jay]

Vs Dorothy elad Orion with Dorothy lead

[meager mauve]

Which means I misread and did not think about this properly.

[vale jay]

Ok so is Chandra a squishy mon

[sleek wigeon]

Chandra (Water Beast Monk)

Wikia

Base

HP: 13170 — DEF: 659
ATK: 604 — SPD: 101
CR: 15 — CD: 50
ACC: 0 — RES: 15

Info

Type: HP
Stars: 6
Devils: 11
Farmable: No

Awaken

From: Beast Monk

Lead

Increase the Attack Speed of ally monsters by 24%

provided by SWARFARM

[meager mauve]

Nope.

[vale jay]

This took me a long time to solve

It seems straightforward but it isn't

[meager mauve]

Alright, one second. I don't know who Dorothy is.... XD

[vale jay]

My solution involves 2 premium units and is a fairly standard cleave

But it's not perfect and absolutely can lose

[meager mauve]

Okay, so Dorothy (L) Eladriel Orion. I'm going to break this down one step at a time so I can wrap my head around it.

Orion can be on fastest swift set, so if I want to win I need to have a monster on Swift that is faster than Orion.

106 Speed with 24 Speed lead means that only Mihyang Racuni or Galleon Bernard can outspeed.

But since neither of those will be on my absolute fastest swift set, I can't really do either one.

Plus, the monsters that die there can be ressed by Elad again, so that's not going to work.

[vale jay]

You can out speed without super fast runes with 24 lead

Thats not a problem

Don't worry about outspeeding

[meager mauve]

Snipe comps won't work since Eladriel can just revive.

So I'd need either a way to guarantee that I can kill Eladriel, or a way to kill Dorothy twice. I might even consider bringing someone that can prevent ressurection.

Maybe a Mephisto could work here.

Oh Raki could be good here too.

Maybe something like Galleon/Raki/x could work.

[vale jay]

What if will

Also raki can't guarantee a kill

Not enough damage

[meager mauve]

Hmm....

[vale jay]

I will tell you

[meager mauve]

I'm actually at a loss. I don't know of a good way to deal with Eladriel's revive without either counter revive or killing him in one shot, and I don't know good monsters to do either.

[vale jay]

I settled on galleon Tiana Cheongpung as my solution

Its not perfect but should be fairly consistent

Then they gave dorothy speed lead

[meager mauve]

Hmmm.... let me think about that one for a second. I thought about Gally Tiana but I hadn't considered CP with it.

[vale jay]

So you can see

It doesn't work now

But like sniping eladriel is hard

With HP lead

[meager mauve]

Wouldn't you also run into the issue of Gally def break missing on Elad?

You wouldn't want to do CP S2 because you need the pushback from S3 for Tiana S2 to hit.

[sleek wigeon]

Eladriel (Wind Archangel)

Wikia

Base

HP: 12015 — DEF: 714
ATK: 626 — SPD: 115
CR: 15 — CD: 50
ACC: 0 — RES: 15

Info

Type: Support
Stars: 6
Devils: 8
Farmable: No

Awaken

From: Archangel

Lead

Increase the HP of ally monsters with Wind attribute by 50%

provided by SWARFARM

[meager mauve]

And if Gally misses def break wouldn't you end up just losing?

[vale jay]

It can lose

But I think I think it can win without hitting def breaks

It's just challenging

[meager mauve]

That makes sense. How is CP usually built? Despair?

[solar finch]

In most cases violent, make it tuned to tiana. I gave my CP some tankiness so you just dont solely lose in unlucky cases

Cuz I sometimes cleave with CP against Byungchuls, and the extra hp really comes in handy

I couldnt build mine on critD, so mine is build on critR slot 4 with 85 acc

[vale jay]

I run despair on both of mine but most people prefer violent

Both are good

-.-

[sleek wigeon]

Cannot read properties of undefined (reading 'slots')

[vale jay]

Hmm I wonder why it won't work

I lied I reruned second on vio recently

[meager mauve]

Oh I don't have a CP. I'm asking just so I know what to look for with CP's.

With my luck I'm never pulling a CP. hahaha

But thank you both. Very helpful. 😄

[dire lake]

tiana/galleon mon pretty much: spd tuned, 100% CR/85% acc then rest into dmg while also adding but not forgetting you want some ehp on them

like therion said, vio and despair upgrades if u can manage over swift

same can be said if u can manage CD over slot 4 CR

[meager mauve]

Got it. If I ever get CP one day I'll probably build that.

Man, I got basically everyone on this. Thank you all very much.

[vale jay]

I like CR more and just going tanky stats but cdmg Cheongpung is definitely a good option too

[lapis pecan]

jx9

[Message Link](#1250837149511581696 message) to #1250837149511581696
defs having hp or def lead have nothing to do with cleave being risky or not

Req. by scarlet_roses. Quote from · Aug 30, 2024, 4:41 PM

[vale jay]

@fiery geode would you disagree then with what I had said?

I don't want to praline an HP lead chandra

[fiery geode]

sorry looking back at what i said it was a bit misleading

[vale jay]

I remember posting a specific instance awhile ago where I lost by like 3-4k hp

[fiery geode]

obviously everything matters a bit

[vale jay]

And it was on lead skill

[fiery geode]

but the presence of an hp lead shouldn't be the major factor behind you deciding to cleave or not

part of it is that you can often adjust your own lead to pretty much cancel it out

[vale jay]

Yeah I agree for sure

[fiery geode]

for example if they have chandra but using hp lead

and you use praline double snipe

id just use cov lead instead of praline lead

[vale jay]

You use cov

Right

[fiery geode]

also even beyond rune quality

there is definitely a big power level difference between some snipe units and others

if you only have f2p options available then you may have to be a bit more careful

if you have claire, bethony, sonia, etc

pew pew away

[vale jay]

I dunno I was afraid

To Sonia this defense

But maybe I am overestimating tankiness

(talking about elad Dorothy orion)

[fiery geode]

wait we're talking about different things

[vale jay]

I feel like Orion s3 Dorothy goes bananas and you can lose
Since mihyang isn't consistently osing here

Are we??

I was talking about this before

[fiery geode]

you linked one of my comments from a different thread

so now i'm not sure what def we're talking about

[vale jay]

Oh yeah

But I was talking above

Basically saying

The way I solve

Dorothy elad Orion
Vs
Elad Dorothy orion
Is totally different

China ran this in r3 a couple of seasons ago

And I thought about the def a lot

[coarse valve]

Does this apply to def leads aswell? Since most of my snipes ignore def

[fiery geode]

if you have mihyang adriana sonia i wouldn't be worried at all

vs either elad lead or dorothy lead

[vale jay]

Perhaps I underestimate Sonia

[fiery geode]

i think you do

[vale jay]

I have used her a lot

I have fucking 5 Sonias lmao

But

[fiery geode]

if there's no weird things going on she hits like 120k

the only way to trap her is a def trap

[vale jay]

Yeah no bananas

[fiery geode]

and at anything below the highest level

[vale jay]

Def def def elad

[fiery geode]

i guarantee no one understands how much def it takes to trap sonia

[vale jay]

X)

[fiery geode]

elad doesn't even have crazy high base def

despite being a def scaling monster

[meager mauve]

I do, but only because you told me at one point because I made the mistake of using a Tractor to tank Sonia. 🙂

[fiery geode]

you know whats funny

[vale jay]

Atk buff Sonia or non atk buff

[fiery geode]

elad has same base def as odin

[vale jay]

O_O

[vale jay]

What

lmao

But why?????

[fiery geode]

atk buff

[vale jay]

Oh yeah no I would not try that would tractor

That sounds spooky as fuck

[meager mauve]

Oh no if you're referring to when I used Tractor to tank Sonia, Sonia was not attack buffed.

Sonia was on Defense and moved first.

[vale jay]

Gap maybe

[meager mauve]

Oh no, I won.

[vale jay]

Oh

[meager mauve]

But jx9 pointed out that it was just because I gapped the Sonia player.

[fiery geode]

the def had an atk buffer

but how it played it out, sonia didnt have atk buff

[vale jay]

Did you mind control the def to not atk buff

[fiery geode]

when she tried to hit his tractor

it probably just wasnt tuned

and the sonia went first

[meager mauve]

No, the guy just didn't tune his Sonia at all to move after the buffer.

Yup. Sonia moved first.

[vale jay]

You love to see it

[meager mauve]

But yes, that's a mistake I can't make anymore, and jx9 pointed out that you'd need something like 2700-2800 bonus defense to survive a good sonia.

Which, if you're building that high of Defense on say a Tractor, you're building him wrong.

Anyway, that was just me bragging because I was dumb somewhere but thought I was smart. XD

As is about 90% of my play in this game still....

[meager mauve]

I've decided that one of the reasons I'm learning so slowly is that I don't have tons of opportunity to practice. While my guildmates don't have great defenses, practicing against them will give me chances to learn, so I'm going to start doing practices against my guildmates' defenses and see if I can solve them properly.

I'm also not going to look at stats so it simulates a siege battle where I don't know what to expect.

[fiery geode]

i know you said you want to get to like 90% win rate before moving to a better guild

but i still think you should move to a better guild yesterday

[meager mauve]

I probably should. I'm just very critical of my own runes and think "how can a better guild accept me and put me in Siege when I'm losing in this garbage guild?"

But I think I'll start browsing swgt and see if I can find one that is better and more serious about siege.

[fiery geode]

it'll be fine, average g1 guild probably still only expects 70-80% wr in siege anyway

average g1 guild will be happy with you just doing guild content win or lose

[meager mauve]

While I'm doing that, I'll still attempt a few of these defense hits just because I'd like to get some ideas of what works, what doesn't, and why.

This defense is one that I figured I could solve pretty quick, but I found myself in multiple positions where my ideas don't work because of Nora.

For example, my first thought was Khmun Malite Racuni

But Nora strips Malite's will, and then if Dominic vio procs, Malite just dies.

Then I thought that perhaps Khmun Racuni Cha Cha could work, but I don't have cha cha runed on revenge, so it doesn't work. I think if Cha Cha is on triple revenge that should be okay.

I was hesitant to try Rina because I don't think Dominic is built on crit to my knowledge. Plus Nora can strip the shield.

But after trying Rina, it worked out okay. Though, I don't think that's the best way around it.

I'm thinking a double snipe comp could work here, but the problem is that the Nora is built really, really fast. It's so fast that I don't have anything that can take first turn other than Galleon Bernard Julie. And I can't reliably Julie this.

[fiery geode]

i wouldn't julie this either, and praline is risky not because nora can be fast but actually because chandra can be fast

chandra has higher base spd than nora, praline has spd advantage over nora but not chandra

however you can still cleave this with other types of double snipe like mihyang adriana sonia

without adriana can use hraes or kahli, without sonia can use something like taru

its a bit more advanced but just to give you idea of what people do

[meager mauve]

That was one idea I had if I had the monsters for. The other I was thinking of is perhaps an Odin with some booster like a fast Bastet.

[fiery geode]

bastet is too slow though

[meager mauve]

Oh right for the chandra.

[fiery geode]

thats why you have to use the mihyang + adriana/kahli/hraes

[meager mauve]

I was only thinking of Nora. That's right.

[fiery geode]

you can brusier this safely though theres not even a def break

rina is fine as you discovered

camilla is similar. talc is also a great dom tank

malite should be fine too, i dont know what you mean by if dom procs malite dies?

i think you may be building malite wrong, i know he's def scaling but he should have decent HP too

you dont need to build him triple def, should have some hp

[meager mauve]

I ran the offense 3 times and lost twice because Dom vio procced and killed Malite in 2 turns before Malite could move.

Here's the build. The destroy was just luck, not actually intentional.

[fiery geode]

your malite should have more hp

also what does his arti look like?

[meager mauve]

Probably could switch this one for damage from wind on this defense.

I think this was just a random one taht I put on there. Definitely not good.

[fiery geode]

right side doesn't matter

but if you want your tank to tank a damage dealer your tank should have -ele

[meager mauve]

Hmmm.... Let me try switching this to a +HP with -wind and see what the results are, just for curiousity.

As for more HP, that's definitely true. I think my main issue there is just getting to 100 res.

But I'll play around with them and see what happens.

[fiery geode]

when i say your malite should have more hp

or anytime i say any thing needs more of x stat

i'm not expecting you to just magically pull more rune quality out of thin air

actually i take that back, i do expect that magic to happen when it comes to your top swift set

but i digress

for malite you can lose def

trade it for hp

[meager mauve]

Oh i see what you're saying.

[meager mauve]

I moved to a better guild. They are still G1, but they are closer to G2 than they are P3. It feels like a completely different experience. Even though it isn't high level siege, these are some very different players. They have higher rune quality, better defenses, and better tactics.

As I was worried about, my rune quality is much lower in comparison with these players than the ones in my old guild. Means I have a lot of farming to do. But it also means that I must be very good about my offenses and ensure that they are indeed suited for the defenses.

This is a defense I'm having trouble solving. Miles is a nuisance because he can ignore defense with his passive. I don't know how he's typically built, but I'd guess Vio/Destroy with high damage.

Eladriel can revive anyone that I kill, so I'd need to kill him before I finish the defense off. The problem is, I can't run any fire damage dealers or even fire bruisers because Miles can torch them.

So the only thing I've come up with that seems reasonable and like it could work is Skogul/Rina/Riley. But I'm not sure how well that will work because Skogul isn't guaranteed to get hit. And even if he does get hit, it will just be at most 2-3 hits if Eladriel/Carc vio procs. So I don't think that works either.

Also Miles might not even crit, which means Rina wouldn't get her shield and she would die. I'm just hoping that Rina's health is high enough that ignoring defense won't make her die instantly.

Could this be an instance where Chloe + Katarina could work?

The only risk is Carc one shotting Katarina, but I assume she's built to be tankier and not pure damage.

[haughty siren]

Normally that was something like tractor windy tetra, not sure how it fares into it right now

[meager mauve]

Another one I'm having some issues solving. I thought maybe just a Malite + 2 fire could work, but you run into the issue of AoE def break Savannah. So I figured I'd need them all on Will, but then I realized that Clara is probably on Swift, then Savannah tuned to Clara. So I'm not sure what I can do.

[fiery geode]

I'd guess Vio/Destroy with high damage.

vio/destroy or vio/shield, strong bruiser but wouldn't consider him high dmg