Jayke Siege/WGB Thread

[meager mauve]

Another question. I ran into this comp for the first time today: Seara (L) Triton John.

I honestly don't think I have the monsters to take on this defense successfully. If I assume that Triton is built to be fast and accurate, and that John and Seara are speed tuned to him, then that means I am guaranteed to take bomb damage.

And if John decides to use his bomb, then all of my monsters will get hit.

The only thing I could think of that could guarantee the win would be a revive comp. Something like Perna, Iunu, Nana or whatever.

I just picked a comp that was tanky and that had cleanses. Vero + Tetra + x. What other options are there for this defense specifically?

[fiery geode]

you had a great idea

revive comp would work

something tanky is good too, non-atk buffed bombs isn't going to 1 shot anything tanky

people are also going to outspeed and cleave this with mihyang adriana

[meager mauve]

How would they outspeed? Triton has higher base speed than Adriana does.

I suppose you'd just be contesting, but that seems a little risky since Triton has a base speed advantage. Are we assuming he's not on swift, or is it just kind of gambling?

[fiery geode]

mihyang is a higher spd lead than seara

[meager mauve]

I'm starting to run into instances where I specifically need a fire tank. I know I can use Kunite as a tank, but he's more helpful for allies than himself I feel like. Would Helena work as a straight Fire tank? As the PvP guide says, it needs to be a unit that can handle a lot of damage even when defense broken. It can't be a bruiser.

Racuni isn't a tank, and khmun is a bruiser more than a tank, same with Tesarion.

Or could Juno be a tank if I just build her very tanky?

[sleek wigeon]

Kunite (Fire Gargoyle)

Wikia

2. Destructive Claws

Inflicts damage on the enemy in proportion to your Defense, destroys the target's HP by the amount of damage dealt and provokes for 1 turn. Afterwards, you will be turned into a statue until the next turn starts. While you are a statue, you won't be able to move. But you will gain immunity against inability effects, receive 30% less damage and recover your HP by 15% when the statue state is removed. (Reusable in 5 turns)

Levels

Cooltime Turn -1
Cooltime Turn -1

Multiplier

1.35*{DEF} (Fixed)

Neg. Effects

Destroy HP
Provoke (1 round(s))

provided by SWARFARM

[fiery geode]

receive 30% less damage

maybe you missed this part about kunite

[meager mauve]

I have seen a couple of instances where I could use a really fat Covenant + khmun + racuni to try and beat a defense. I've run into multiple Savannah + woosa + x defenses or Clara/Galleon/x defenses. I have two questions about how to make this team work:

1.) It mentions in beginner PvP that you are attempting to speed contest. But it doesn't mention anything about fastest set, and that wasn't included in the swift set prioritization. I imagine that my fastest set shouldn't go on Racuni. Just out of curiosity, what tick should I be looking to reach with Racuni to allow for speed contesting? I only ask for consistency. I'm in G1 Siege at the moment and speeds are wildly different from one defense to the next.

2.) My understanding of these builds is Khmun on a bruiser build with CR, HP, some SPD, and skilled up S2. Covenant can be fat with 1 point skilled in S3. Racuni standard support build, 205 tick at least with 200k ehp + 100 res if I can manage that. My question is would it be okay with this particular build to lower the ehp on Racuni in order to increase his speed? If not, then I lack the rune depth for this offense and need to farm more swift runes.

[fiery geode]

in today's game where there's been huge mana buffs

i think it's acceptable to swap around your top swift set even at lower levels and even for beginners

i wouldn't blame you if you don't want to though, so just some sort of 4th or 5th string best swift on racuni is fine

wait your question #2 makes me question your understanding from question 1

racuni on this offense is swift not standard support

ticks are not relevant here you just make him as fast as you can afford

you do need to consider ehp though so it can't be like flat main stat kind of swift sets

[meager mauve]

This is partially why I'm asking because I can get him my fastest swift set, but Racuni's EHP will be rather low on it, as it doesn't have great HP/DEF stats. It's just pure speed rolls. The question is mostly because if I lose too much ehp for racuni to help 2v2, then my fastest swift set will not work on him, right? I'd need it to both give him a reasonable amount of EHP and make him as fast as possible with those stats.

[fiery geode]

yes so you give him your fastest swift set with real mains

like hp or def main

[meager mauve]

Lost just 1 WGB round today. It was one I honestly didn't think too much about because I thought my comp had it in the back easily:

Taru did not kill Devaraja in one shot with S3 like I assumed he would.

I'm not entirely sure what comp I should use here since this one seemed to be a good choice. Was I just out-runed?

Or should I have attacked Devaraja with Covenant AND Taru and ignored Ophelia and Riley altogether?

[fiery geode]

Show taru

[fiery geode]

that's not horrible, how much dmg did it do?

your team was good i'm surprised it lived

so i guess just outruned

[meager mauve]

Looks like it did 47k ish

Survived with probably 500-600 health?

Devaraja does scale from max health, so maybe he just has tons of health stacked to the point where it lived.

[fiery geode]

there's a lot of room to make your taru much better though (for example - are you making use of flat atk on all rune slots?)

and if you wanted to optimize this team, in general taru isn't great to use with praline

you're wasting the crit rate buff

plus if enemy doesn't have spd lead

you don't need one yourself either

and can use atk lead instead

[meager mauve]

Very true. I also eventually want to move to rage/blade rather than fatal/blade since it's easier to get ATK than CD.

[meager mauve]

This isn't something I had considered, but I will remember for next time. Very true. Would Covenant as lead + say another DD work, or would it need to be a booster still?

[fiery geode]

no i mean you could have used the exact same team except cov as lead instead of praline as lead

[meager mauve]

ooooohhhh got it. Makes sense. Still use the boost from Praline but don't need the speed from the lead.

[meager mauve]

Alright, I'm starting to accumulate Devilmons again. I am not sure I really have any good targets at the moment for Siege or Arena other than 2A monsters.

Here's my current mons without max skills:

Psamathe (I think I'm going to use him on the nat 5 skill up event because he requires a TON of devils), Leo, 2 2A Kahlis, 2A Dozer, 2A Tractor, 2nd Covenant

The 2nd Covenant is a fat covenant so while I'd like to get the extra skill up on his S3, I dont' know if that's really super worth it compared to saving it for another nat 5 I'll get in the future.

I don't think Leo needs skillups (though I could be wrong.)

And the 2 Kahlis I don't think need them, and neither do the 2A Dozer/Tractor. So I think I'm just at the point where i start saving.

I have quite a few other nat 5's currently in storage, but I don't think any of them are super useful for Siege, and there are nat 4's that are much higher priority on my build list than them.

Bastet, for example, is a good monster for Siege, but I don't have a good defense that I can build with her.

Karnal is another good example. Again, not sure I have a defense that I can use him in yet, and I don't know if he's that great of an offense monster.

And then some RTA stuff, but I'm not doing RTA with anything but support monsters because I want to focus exclusively on Siege.

I do have some monsters I'd like to build just because they seem fun, but they aren't good.

Vendhan, Taor, Wind Hacker, Carlos

So I think I might just be saving for another Galleon, Mihyang, or better nat 5. I'm not sure I really have any great options at the moment.

Oh I also have Aaliyah, but I don't have a defense for her either.

[fiery geode]

how many devils do you have

[meager mauve]

Right now I'm sitting on 5, but I'm about to get another from ToA, as well as another from an event, so 7 at the moment.

[fiery geode]

no rush to use devils if you dont even have enough to skill up 1 monster yet

psama for event is fine

dont devil cov

leo doesn't need devils

kahli is low priority

don't bother with bastet she's not great on def now anyway. usable on offense without devils

karnal is not used in siege

taor wind hacker carlos all usable for niche offense with no devils

don't devil 4* dupes at this point

aaliyah is a good devil candidate for offense

[meager mauve]

Oh interesting. Offense. In my lowly G1 guild I see her on Defense constantly.

[fiery geode]

read #1048719420870107227 again

she doesnt' do a single thing that's good for a def monster

[meager mauve]

Which explains why I beat defenses with her on it all the time. XD

[meager mauve]

In the middle of Siege at the moment, 8/0 with my team decisions today. I ran into a defense that I'm not sure I have the monsters to deal with properly.

I had a couple of ideas, but I don't think any of them work.

1.) Vero + Tetra + DD. Problem is, I don't really have a good DD for this. Wind will get taunted and focused by Rakan, Water will get focused and killed by Savannah, and Fire can still be focused by Rakan if Nana lands def break.

2.) Mihyang + Tetra + Malite. This seems decent, but one def break from Savannah or Nana and Mihyang is toast here.

3.) Kunite + Vritra + Tetra or other supp. I liked this idea initially, as it meant that perhaps I could get Vritra to be focused and deal damage back, but Tetra and Kunite are both tanking, with Kunite tanking both nana and Rakan unless Nana or Savannah lands def break on Vritra

I also can't depend on a cleave team like Praline, Cov, Taru because Nana + Savannah are both anti-cleave.

In the end, I just decided not to attempt an attack on this defense because I don't think I have the right monsters for the job.

What would be some good choices for this defense?

[fiery geode]

you need premium stuff if you want to bruiser it

for example feng + immunity like vela aaliyah

bolv amelia windy

leo + whatever

for f2p i think your best bet is to actually just cleave it with julie lushen

[meager mauve]

So I have Leo, but I thought that would also fail because Rakan could easily taunt Leo and focus him down, especially if he's def broken.

[fiery geode]

like julie bastet/megan lushen

[meager mauve]

Which, with the higher accuracy from nana lead, is entirely possible from Savannah

[fiery geode]

you would do leo + tetra + bruiser

leo is always built super tanky for siege

[meager mauve]

Ah man. I should have come here first. My guildmates all told me to build him hybrid.

Which has worked for the very few times I've used him. But it makes more sense that he isn't built for damage, just tanky.

Leo + Tetra + Vero might work, or Leo + Tetra + Byungchul maybe.

Leo, Tetra, Elsharion?

[fiery geode]

if you have byung definitely use him

elsha is too squishy

[meager mauve]

I have been looking at my fastest possible swift set. No matter how I do it, the fastest I can get is around +180. Way too slow.

However, I run GBAH in a speed team. If I run GBAH for a while to get swift runes, I will burn through crystals faster than I can farm them.

So to save crystals, I need 2 questions answered. First, should I start reapping swifts?

And second, should I get the giants thing from the event and only set those to swift?

For reference, I have 128 reapps. I was instructed only to use them on Vio runes, but I'm curious to know if this is an instance where I should reapp more than vio.

[fiery geode]

i dont understand what you're doing

i've played through 3 new alts in my life and every single one has greatly surpassed +180 top swift set by the time pve was finished

and all of these were pre whatever abyss or insane cairos drop rate buffs we've gotten

are you using some weird filter and not rolling potentially fast runes?

are you not doing r5?

are you actually not farming that much and just think you are?

having speed team means nothing

that 1st alt was several years ago and was like 2 min gb10 and this was pre-auto farming

and manual r5 1 at a time with other players

and still managed to get way past +180 by the time pve was done

but all of that being said, yes it's good to reapp swift

[fiery geode]

yes

but if you think this is going to be significant

then that may answer why you're having this problem overall

an hour of farming even if it drops only swift is essentially a tiny non-factor in your overall farming

[hidden temple]

Ok you can read my answer first

If +180 is your limit I understand there's definitely sth wrong with the your farming process

Yeah you did sth wrong, but at least we can give you some directions

You should roll every single rune with spd substats, if it over 20 then it's a must keep

You can improve the number as you play, but 20 is a good one to start

Next, you should farm r5

You must farm r5 to do any real process

R5 literally give you extra rolls of stats, don't neglect it

And last, maybe you're not farming enough, you say you burn all those crystals but tbh crystals are also farmable through normal playing, maybe you don't play enough to begin with

Be sure to sleep in giants and r5 after doing other shit in daily quets, and ofc, get crystals to farm

Maybe you'll do rift as well, but do anything to improve your swift

If you burn all your crystal, be sure to burn them effectly for swiftly swift rune

Heck you can even just get Vio from event like I am

[meager mauve]

No, I roll every single rune that has speed, including ones that are weird sets like Accuracy, Tolerance, etc.

[meager mauve]

No, I run R5 pretty consistently, though I will admit I am not using my fangs because I'm kind of just afk farming while at work/playing other games.

[meager mauve]

This might be the case. I know that I don't really farm when I'm doing real life stuff like playing with my toddler and stuff. I also don't farm at a very high frequency if I've got the game up and I'm doing something immersive like playing another game or writing or something.

Maybe this might shed a little more light on this. I'll give the speeds on the fastest Swift runes in each slot:

Slot 1: 20+4
Slot 3: 19+4
Slot 4: 21+3 (I just realized this is on a PvE unit. I will be fixing this.)
Slot 5: 17+4
Slot 6: 18+4

I think the slot 4 was used to ensure proper speed tuning for NBAH, as my Abigail is the one that has it.

I do recognize that they are not grinded to +5. I have an issue using legendary grinds. I'm always scared that I'm wasting it, as I've been told a couple of times not to "waste my legendary grinds" on certain runes I've posted in the rune chat.

Which then makes me think that I could almost always waste them unless I use the legendary grinds on runes that are godlike.

As for why my fastest Swift rune in slot 5 and slot 3 are below 20, to be honest I really couldn't tell you. I know that I keep every single rune above 20. I also know that I roll every single rune with speed, including weird sets.

I haven't quad-rolled speed even once, that I can tell you for sure.

I think this really just boils down to I haven't farmed GBAH enough. And I probably should start looking into reapping swift.

[meager mauve]

Not really that I think it will be significant, more because I know that despair runes have a lower drop rate than any other rune in GBAH, and so it's harder to get despair. Using the increased drop rate for despair would mean you could farm (even for an hour) a lower drop rate rune way more effectively.

But in hindsight, that just sounds silly.

[meager mauve]

And just for reference, fastest possible runes in each slot:

Slot 1: 21+4 Revenge
Slot 3: 24+3 Despair
Slot 4: 21+4 Despair
Slot 5: 23+4 Despair
Slot 6: 22+4 Nemesis

So I think that just shows that I need to farm GBAH at a higher frequency.

[meager mauve]

Question about an offense I made:

I figured Ethna would only change targeting from Rina if there were def breaks, but would never target Carc. Also figured Carc increasing glancing hit chances with S2 would make her passive less useful.

Rina would be able to tank pretty well because she gets a shield. Malite would be able to taunt + tank if def broken.

Carc would only get hit by Galleon, and if Rina is defense broken and Carc isn't, it might even make Galleon target Rina instead.

I ended up winning this offense. Was I going about this the right way, or did my offense really only win because I had him outruned?

I'll admit it did feel slightly awkward to run, but it worked like I had thought it would.

[hidden temple]

Feel like you have to read #1048719420870107227 again

Your mindset is wrong

[meager mauve]

What would have been better here? A Triana instead of Rina for a 1 fire + 2 wind comp?

[fiery geode]

this sounds like you're just overall inexperienced with the units in the game and how they are typically runed and behave

Also figured Carc increasing glancing hit chances with S2 would make her passive less useful.

not sure what you're referring to, none of the enemies have passives

you have basically 2 dedicated tanks here, that's really bad. if a tank is not tanking then it's being useless. so if 1 tank is tanking then the other tank is doing nothing

this is a big deal because the majority of the damage is going to come from ethna s3, a single target

also i think you may be underestimating that galleon is a bruiser and capable of doing a lot of damage too

you really can't bring carc here, he just dies

you are also completely ignoring the threat from rica

[meager mauve]

Mistyped. I meant Ethna's ability that increases attack bar if she lands critical hits.

[fiery geode]

you have no immunity and a single super weak cleanse

[meager mauve]

This is exactly why I asked. I definitely am.

I had a feeling I was just lucky with runes and not that I had chosen a good comp, but I couldn't really be sure because I am inexperienced.

[fiery geode]

the rina is fine

but you should have replaced the second tank with immunity

fran is the most accesible, also delphoi, but obviously the premium nat 5 3 turn ones would be better

you can also just cleave this

for example mihyang teon lushen

ethna may outspeed if she's on swift, but then she won't do anything. if she s2's nothing happens, if she s3s then she will target mihyang leaving your teon lushen alone

[meager mauve]

Forgot about Delphoi! I have a decent one right now.

[meager mauve]

I see. And no chance she's on despair right?

She isn't typically runed with it?

[fiery geode]

if she's not on swift then you're expected to outspeed

[meager mauve]

That's a question I need to ask. I recall somewhere in this chat that it was mentioned to watch base speeds, as you could be at a disadvantage right off the bat.

So is that only something I worry about with monsters I know will be runed on Swift? Or is that just with certain comps?

I find myself constantly not using my Leah cleave because my Kahli has a lower base speed than the monsters in the defenses I'd like to hit with it.

And I immediately just assume I will get outsped.

[fiery geode]

yes you have to watch the speeds but you also have to know what the monster can do if they get a turn

it doesn't matter if a monster is faster than you if they can't do anything with their turn

[coarse valve]

what are the best nat5 tanks with immunity

[fiery geode]

vela amelia aaliyah woosa

[meager mauve]

In an effort to learn, I want to ask about a few of my guildmates' attacks.

This one, for example. I'd probably take something like Malite, Carc, Lala/Triana/Lulu into this comp. But my guildmate took this comp.

I think this is a bad comp because Ethna can die from Perna vio procs. Also if she gets def broken while attacking FY she can be targeted by FY later and killed from FY + Perna attacks.

And while Kumar can heal, he can only do it once. Not like a dedicated hearl like lulu/lala.

[fiery geode]

this is a horrible offense dont need to think too much of it

[meager mauve]

This is another one I wasn't sure about. While I like Tesarion, I don't know if this comp really works because you just have Tesa as damage.

Cleaves don't seem to be very strong here either because Nana + savannah. You'd need something like Julie/Bastet/Lushen to pull this off.

And even then, Savannah/Nana can come back and cause some problems.

So I thought maybe a better comp would be Tesa/Racuni/Skogul.

[fiery geode]

you need more immunity cleanse

feng immunity or julie bastet lushen cleave

you can't have riley as your only support, rakan can just keep her provoked forever

[meager mauve]

(This was also my guildmates's offense by the way)

[fiery geode]

tesa racuni skogul no good either, skogul isn't a true tank and can just get blown up

[meager mauve]

Hmmm... I don't think I can run Tesa/Racuni/Malite. I think that's too little damage.

[fiery geode]

this angle is not going to be safe against this def

both nana and sav have aoe def breaks and rakan can retarget

you need immunity to safely bruiser this

[hidden temple]

no real stripper here

can just harmonia + wind + fire them to death

even easier if you have sth premium like velajuel

[meager mauve]

Just in case you didn't see it earlier, this was my guildmates' attack, not mine.

But I agree. That's one of the things I thought was off about it.

[fiery geode]

join a better guild and stop looking at your guildies teams

this is like looking at in game monster review

[meager mauve]

Fair enough. I was mostly just attempting to learn what makes their attacks bad, but I suppose it's better to look at good attacks rather than bad ones.

Only problem is that I'm currently unable to achieve a 90% winrate on a G1 guild. I'm not sure I can join one that is better and still be registered for Siege.

[hidden temple]

just join a g1 guild

if you are anywhere ready for proper siege you can do g1

[meager mauve]

I'm in a G1 guild right now. That's what I just said. 😄

[hidden temple]

then you're fine at that guild tbh

[meager mauve]

That's what I think. I believe I just annoyed jx9 by posting really crappy attacks and attempting to dissect them.

[hidden temple]

g1 or higher guild is where real siege start

[fiery geode]

don't call that real siege please

[hidden temple]

damn I feel ashamed

[fiery geode]

if you're in g1 and aren't at 90% win rate yet that's ok and you can stay in your current guild

but yea dont look at your guildies teams

[meager mauve]

Yeah I was about to say, G1 I'm seeing defenses that would never be run at G3, so there's no way it's real Siege. XD

[vale jay]

Keep posting attacks and learning

[meager mauve]

I do have a couple of attacks on WGB that I'd like to get some advice on.

This one I attempted a fat covenant. Khmun, Racuni on Swift, Covenant 0 speed. Snipe Clara and then Khmun/Racuni can safely 2v2 (I thought anyway).

The Clara was WAY faster than me (on next tick above Racuni's swift runes I think) and I'm not certain Khmun/Racuni could have safely 2v2'ed there. Am I mistaken?

This one I was debating on just doing a Gemini/Leah/Kahli cleave on it, but I decided against it because both Eshir and Truffle build HP.

His monsters were so fast that Jultan and Vigor were both lapped before they could move. I think the comp still works, just that I was outruned in both of these defenses. The other three I managed to win pretty handily.

Last one is this one:

I again thought a fat covenant attack could work here, but Xiana was faster than Racuni, and Covenant died before he could move. I think I was just going against this guy's best runes possible, because I won all the other rounds against him:

For reference on the other rounds:

[lapis pecan]

jaykeblakk

[Message Link](#1232589438211850330 message) to #1232589438211850330
His monsters were so fast that Jultan and Vigor were both lapped before they could move. I think the comp still works, just that I was outruned in both of these defenses. The other three I managed to win pretty handily.

Req. by jaykeblakk. Quote from · Aug 9, 2024, 8:59 PM

[meager mauve]

Oh woops

[fiery geode]

you don't have speed advantage here. you're 19 lead and 105 base versus 24 lead and 103 base

[fiery geode]

leah team wouldn't be afraid of not enough damage here. high hp monsters still aren't tanky enough, it's generally going to be only monsters with damage reduction passives that would give you trouble. however 30 lead eshir definitely outspeeds you

the comp you used is not good at all it's just not tanky enough

overall i think you're not understanding what makes monsters tanky or not

it's not just simply having hp

it's largely going to be about passives and/or skills that make the difference

look through the pic in the #1048719420870107227 showing monster roles

what is something all the monsters that are labeled as tank category have in common?

why is jultan not in the tank category?

those are 2 good homework questions for you

[meager mauve]

Tanks have damage reduction passives that allow them to withstand damage even if they are defense broken.

Jultan doesn't have that, which is why he isn't in the tank category.

[fiery geode]

yes

if you want to turn 2 that def, you should actually note that the only strip from the enemy is single target from light

if you run dias + 2 other bruisers/supports on will runes

you can survive easily

but you can't just run random bruisers like you did

[fiery geode]

you always need to compare speeds, you're at a speed disadvantage here again

[meager mauve]

This was part of the issue I had. I don't have many bruisers on Will currently. Something I will work on once I farm better Swift runes.

[fiery geode]

these are all good

[fiery geode]

then use monsters that don't care as much about being def broken

windy tractor rina kunite for example

[fiery geode]

twl into fei is kinda risky, most of the time you win but if fei gets lucky easy loss

the julie was fine

[meager mauve]

This one I will admit I didn't look at the speed. I only looked at skills, as I've never seen a Xiana before. Her skillset was so strange that I didn't even think to look at speed. I just thought "I need to just one-shot her and I win"

[fiery geode]

carc malite fran too squishy into that def. nothing stops you from just losing units turn 1

[meager mauve]

Fei did one-shot my Windy, but he's built kind of poorly. However, the Fei was built yolo. I'm not sure how to handle defenses with the light and dark kung fu girls. They seem to be down to chance no matter how I look at it unless I take something like Dias.

[fiery geode]

light and dark are completely different

this def you just cleave

its slow. tiana base speed is 96

[meager mauve]

Hmmm.... I forgot Savannah S2 is AOE. If she def broke Carc then all 3 woudl have focused him and he dies.

[meager mauve]

Funnily enough, I've lost attempting to cleave Tiana defenses because a ton of Tianas at this level are runed as fast as they can get. I have several guildmates that believe that's the only way to rune her too. It's scared me off of cleaving Tianas because I've lost quite a few that way.

[meager mauve]

From my very limited experience with them, they feel the same. Multiple attacks on the same turn with no elemental disadvantage. This was the first time I've ever seen dark, and I've fought lights in Siege and generally had to run Dias to avoid getting completely smashed against well runed ones.

[fiery geode]

as long as you use teams that actually have a significant speed advantage, if you lose then it's whatever. you still did the right thing

[meager mauve]

I see what you mean. It's a "losing because they are making a dumb decision" type of deal. I'll eventually go to a better guild if I keep making better decisions.

Okay, so then one more question about cleaving:

Most of the time, you're attempting to cleave T1. Are there some instances where you could cleave on another turn besides T1? Or are they so niche that I shouldn't worry about them?

[fiery geode]

yes there are second turn cleaves

also while not exactly a cleave, along those lines there are "suicide" comps involving stuff like iunu and psama

[meager mauve]

This siege I decided I was going to cleave as much as I possibly could. Use every single cleave setup that I could. There were multiple towers with the exact same defense set up. I got quite a bit of cleaves in.

I had 5 bruiser comps and 5 cleaves. One of the bruiser comps was TWL, the others I think were all built well minus one.

Couple of things I learned running more cleaves than I usually do:

1.) Cleaving seems to need lower rune requirements than the defenses that you hit it with do. In other words, to survive a cleave, you usually need much higher rune quality than the cleaver. If you have even rune quality, the cleave usually wins.

2.) I took the idea of "what can they do if they get a turn" to heart on the Theomars defenses. I knew if I cleaved I'd kill everyone but Theo, but I also knew that the only way Theo wins afterwards is by proccing a TON. Letting him kill anything while he's on 1 hp means I kill him right after.

3.) I understand why so many people build so many dupes. If I could just run Gemini, Leah Kahli 5 straight times I'd have crushed the entire Fran Kaki Theomars tower myself.

Couple of questions:

First, I don't think the Khmun, Vigor, Skogul comp is cleavable since they're all bruisers. I've typically run this offense, but I think I've just had higher rune quality in all the instances I've used it. What is typically a good counter to this defense?

Second, the Chandra/Liu Mei/Nora defense, I thought I could win with Lushen. Liu Mei survived with probably about 3-4k HP. Is that typical, and is this defense not Lushenable? I'm not familiar with how Liu Mei is built, and I assumed that I'd be able to just kill her and Chandra with Lushen. Perhaps my Lushen's rune quality is too low?

Finally, the Louise Anavel Nora defense to me seemed really terrible. No damage threat and if you just run a bit of cleansing the Dot/taunt doesn't do anything either. Am I correct in assuming that pretty much anything wins here as long as I have a cleanse?

[hidden temple]

insert clapping sound effect*

Good job good job

Yes those the reasons why cleave teams are so good in siege

When you look at a def, the first 4 things you think about are "Can I Lushen/Praline/Julie/Copper this?"

However anti cleave monsters can exist in a same team, or you're in wgb and you aren't confident with your 2nd or 3rd swift set, bruiser teams still serve their roles

[meager mauve]

Completely off topic, can Sin be used as a fire version of Tractor? And could I build a TWL but using Sin in place of Windy or Tractor?

For example Sin, Windy, Lala or Sin, Tractor, Lala or Tractor, Sin, Lulu, etc?

[fiery geode]

this is not really true. what you're experiencing is that no one is building their defs tanky to defend against a cleave, so it doesn't really count if you're cleaving a defense that is built poorly and doesn't even consider trying to defend against a cleave

[fiery geode]

you can still cleave this, praline double snipe or lushen

most common bruiser counter is similar to what you used, just khmun + supports/bruisers

[fiery geode]

not typical, your lushen probably just weak. show lushen again?

also how is your gin runed?

your spd lead for lushen teams on siege offense should be swift super fast so that it follows up lushen before the enemy gets a turn

[fiery geode]

you can refer to siege def teambuilding in #1048719420870107227

this def fails 3 of the 5 things

even failing 1 of the 5 things makes the def bad

so failing 3... yea thats really horrible

[fiery geode]

yes but no

sin base stats are just so much weaker than tractor or windy

it's almost as if sin was just naturally perma def broken anyway

don't try sin

[meager mauve]

Definitely need to improve it. Primarily more ATK/CD. I just haven't found better runes than these ones yet. I've run through swop just to see if I can find some setup that can do better, and I end up getting MAYBE 50 extra attack with the same CD.

So it's just rune quality.

[meager mauve]

This makes sense. I was just guessing based on experience, but it looks like I'm basically just seeing the results of terrible defenses.

[meager mauve]

Ah, that's my problem. Gin isn't on swift, I've tried to get him built for Arena instead. I have Psamathe for that now so I should swap him to Swift instead.

Problem is I don't have great Swift runes, hence farming GBAH endlessly.

[fiery geode]

mihyang is better lead for siege than gin though

[meager mauve]

Oh right! I don't know why I hadn't even considered this before. She is typically built fast and has built in Crit against anything.

I am now starting to understand why Mihyang is such a crucial monster.

[meager mauve]

More cleaves. Last two were because Tesarion is too good into 4R, and Tractor seems like a good counter to Sonia.

I didn't think I could cleave a Camilla, and I wasn't sure I could successfully beat a Sonia in a cleave race.

5 Wins on this WGB

[meager mauve]

5 more wins. 3 cleaves 2 bruiser. I wanted to cleave 1R with my Leah, but I remembered that Moore actually prevents that cleave from happening, so I can't do it. Could I have done it on 4R? I figured it might just be easier to run Kunite since he's never going to die there in a billion years, even without a dedicated healer.

[fiery geode]

1r is bad, you're at spd disadvantage

4r - what do you mean you didn't think you could cleave a camilla? this is a good team btw just want to check who you killed first

and not that tesa was bad here but you are overestimating importance of oblivion vs passives

you really don't need it at all to kill any of that stuff, its better to focus on survivability - for example khmun is more standard here instead of tesa

[meager mauve]

Camilla's passive makes it difficult to cleave into because it reduces crit chance, so she could survive because I don't crit her.

I killed Veromos first in that lineup.

[fiery geode]

yea...

so why does camilla matter

you're not killing her first

she is not eleanor

we use the term cleave very loosely in sw

it generally just means you outspeed and kill at least 1 thing immediately

so killing 1 thing and then bruisering the rest 3v2 is still sort of a cleave

and its normal

[meager mauve]

I didn't have confidence in my Khmun's ability to kill a Camilla through her passive.

[fiery geode]

but khmun doesn't have to kill her

your cov can kill her

and you don't have to 1 shot her

you're really overly scared of her for no good reason

[meager mauve]

Oh right, because Juno isn't ever hitting him, and I've sniped Veromos.

And Camilla shouldn't one shot him pretty much ever.

And then Racuni cleanses him anyway so even if he's frozen he can still move next turn. I see what you're saying.

I'll remember that for next time.

[fiery geode]

camilla can never kill khmun by herself

much less khmun + a racuni

[meager mauve]

Right. I'll remember that for next time.

[fiery geode]

5r - this was dangerous, you may be underestimating how much def you need against a standard offense sonia

you can make it safer if you just use triana instead of riley

if you have cami that's better than tractor here

[meager mauve]

No Cami, sadly.

I do like the Triana. I hadn't considered her, but it makes a lot of sense.

Though she isn't speed tuned to my Tractor, so she'd move before him. I don't think that matters much though.

[fiery geode]

do you have leo

[fiery geode]

it doesnt

[meager mauve]

I do have Leo. I didn't think about using him here because I made the risky assumption that Tractor would live the Sonia attack.

Though I forgot admittedly that Sonia scales off SPD. I've used Leo in Siege against a Sonia comp before.

[fiery geode]

just to give you a rough idea, my regular offense sonia can ignore def a tractor with +2500 def

[meager mauve]

My Tractor is actually sitting at exactly 2600 currently, so I see your point.

[fiery geode]

ok so funnily enough

then that works here

but that's pretty bad for 99% of tractors other usage

[meager mauve]

Oh no, not +2600

2600 total

[fiery geode]

ohh

ok so that's better in terms of you probably built your tractor correctly

but yes it was the wrong choice here

[meager mauve]

Yes. I see that now. What other options are there to tank Sonia? Rina doesn't work because her passive can't go up until after she's hit.

[fiery geode]

anyway should have just used leo

[meager mauve]

I can go Leo, but then who? I need a water tank for Sonia right?

[fiery geode]

then you can use anything

leo basically cuts sonias dmg in half

you can tank it a lot easier

[meager mauve]

Ah. Okay. Makes sense. I'll note it in my common comps list then. Should be free after that.

[fiery geode]

otherwise you can just use revivers or second life stuff

other than triana theres also hwadam and nana that work similarly

or for the monster itself, you can use iunu + 2 fire for example

but thats all unncessarily complicated if you have leo, just use leo

and this isn't even a good def

it's just someone lazy using their off as def

[meager mauve]

I actually guessed that correctly. It looked like a comp I'd use on a defense if I had those monsters.

[fiery geode]

these are fine, 1r is a bit risky if your lushen isn't too strong, all 3 of those monsters can be tanky and survive a weak lushen and then moore can go and stop your mihyang from finishing anything off before riley heals

and for 5r tetra is much better than lulu

[meager mauve]

Ah, for the provokes from Minato. True. I was only thinking about Nora's Dots

[fiery geode]

the tetra is 100% better against nora than lulu

[meager mauve]

Which if its just Dots I think full cleanse is better because then it doesn't get a turn to hurt my monsters.

Even though the Dot can hit?

[fiery geode]

nora can perma cc lulu

its not super likely, but it can happen

[meager mauve]

Hmmm... 100 res + element disadvantage would mean the worst possible luck I could have. But then again, that's safety I suppose.

[fiery geode]

100 res doesn't do anything

you're just counting on a coin flip for the elemental disadvantage part

remember the goal of siege offense is 95%+ wr

if something happens 10% of the time and that is enough to cause you to lose

that's still bad, avoidable, and your fault

[meager mauve]

Yup. Makes sense.

So question on 4R, could that have been Leah cleaved?

The second 4R with Ariel, Manon, Chow.

Or was I right to decide not to because of Manon passive?

[fiery geode]

yea don't do it

although tbh if you use hraes as the buffer

hraes can probably solo ariel + chow lol

but yea dont leah manon

[meager mauve]

Technically with this defense he can just solo the entire thing and practically did. It's a horrible defense. XD

[meager mauve]

Today's siege was an absolutely pathetic performance from me. 6/4 at the end. I lost to a couple of defenses that I honestly think I just underestimated because they are so random and weird.

This is actually partially why I try to refrain from cleaving as much as I should, because I have 0 confidence in my cleave comp ability to be successful. The Praline/Cov/Taru for example, or the Dozer/Copper/imesety

Admittedly the Eshir/Lulu/Nora pick wasn't great. I should have just gone all DoT comp rather than just partial. I have Rica, Moogwang, Nora. I can strip and DoT pretty easily.

And my Dozer/Copper/Imesety was because it's not speed tuned, so Juno moved between Copper and Imesety, stripping my Dozer's Def + CR buffs.

I feel like quite a failure because this wasn't even G1 siege. Our guild lost the last two battles and was demoted into P3.

But looking at this the positive way, now I know I still have a very long way to go.

And it means it should be easy to improve my teams.

[fiery geode]

This is actually partially why I try to refrain from cleaving as much as I should, because I have 0 confidence in my cleave comp ability to be successful. The Praline/Cov/Taru for example, or the Dozer/Copper/imesety

the point of this help is you need to actually explain how you lost and why you think you lost, and think about what you could have done differently next time

you didn't say anything other than you lost

the nigong def is not something you can copper dozer, there's no way to speed tune it as imesety is a resurge and not an aoe atb boost

[meager mauve]

Praline/Cov/Taru, I think it doesn't work against that defense because nothing is really all that squishy. Though, they did all have a shield from shield runes and I think they survived by the amount of the shield (from my guess)

[fiery geode]

rune issue

also in general taru is not good with praline

the crit buff is largely wasted

use kahli or some other option

if a monster doesn't have a passive damage reduction

it is always expected you can 1 shot it with any praline dd

doesn't matter about shield runes or hp leader skills or not

[meager mauve]

Khmun/Racuni/Covenant I think I needed to Praline that defense instead. Praline/Cov/Kahli. Snipe Deborah and Robo to leave Isabelle. I think that could win it.

The Eshir/Lulu/Nora I think I needed to let someone else attack that defense. I don't think I have the monsters to deal with it properly.

[fiery geode]

you're still not being clear on how you lost

who did you hit with cov?

[meager mauve]

I hit Isabelle. I made an assumption that she would be the strongest built, thinking that robo would be built for more accuracy than damage.

[fiery geode]

and then how did you lose

[meager mauve]

Robo one shot covenant. Deborah hit khmun while he was def broken. Robo S3'ed. Khmun moved, then Robo moved and killed khmun through his shield.

To be honest, I think I lost because the comp doesn't work. I feel like I would need to kill 2 monsters rather than just one. Otherwise they have too much damage from Deborah passive.

[fiery geode]

that's better

yes you're right, praline 2 dd is better since both isabelle and robo are big threats

although i dont think it was that bad

maybe your khmun and racuni weren't runed that well

khmun and racuni should have a good chance to 2v2 robo deb

show their runes?

[meager mauve]

I can't get the storage thing to work for some reason. I tap and hold and it won't pull it up. I'll have to use 2 screenshots. Sorry.

I want to try and move Khmun to a different set instead of Energy eventually. Still haven't farmed NBAH for the runes though.

I have 2 racunis. This one is for fat covenant, the other is vio and built for bruisering.

Both khmun and racuni are on SPD/HP/HP

[fiery geode]

what about artis?

[meager mauve]

Khmun left

Khmun right

Racuni left

Racuni right

The Khmun right could be better if I got an HP/DEF main stat.

[fiery geode]

you dont see the problem?

should be -dark

add dmg is bad on khmun even if you didn't want to swap

-dark on left side for both khmun and racuni, for right side khmun you can go any combinatoin of cd subs and s1 acc

spd up effect is bad

your racuni basically has a green arti

[meager mauve]

I forget to swap artifacts for what would work best against the team I'm facing. I am certain I have enough artis to perform good swaps like you're mentioning, i just haven't done it. Something I need to start doing.

As for the other losses, seems like the Cov/Taru one was a rune issue, but I should be using Kahli instead of Taru. The Dozer/Copper I suppose can't work at all since Ningong can just revive them if I don't go for him first. The Eshir/Lulu/Nora was just a bad comp because I had no damage threats really.

I have a question actually about a Lushen comp.

Typically Teon/Kona is the booster in a Fat Lushen

They are incredibly slow, so you can't plan on a speed race. Are you only hitting non-speed lead, non-cleave resistant comps with it?

Or is the idea that you make your Teon/Kona fast enough that you can attempt to beat speed lead defenses? Because I feel like speed lead defenses are the ones you'd want to hit since they will be squishier.

[hidden temple]

I remember it was explained somewhere in beginner guide

but typically yes, you don't hit any real spd threat that also have a spd lead

95*1.3 (assuming Teon+Gin lead)=124 so you can safely outspd most spd threat in the game

and yes you can still hit them if there's a spd lead but no real spd threat in the def team, Clara def is a good example.

a bit sad to say this but I'm going to quit SW, dunno when I'm gonna return but good luck with your SW career (and good luck dealing with jx9's temper too, I hate him as much as you do)

[fiery geode]

it's a good question, you are very correct that its hard to race with fat lushen team

some points to consider

1. one super meta type of def you can race is clara. with mihyang/gin + teon you are about even on speed, so you can contest these

2. if you can summon a dova then you can race a ton more things

3. you can just assume your enemies are bad and are not runing their defs well and not putting their best swift on anything on def. just risk it anyway even if you're at speed disadvantage. also when you get into better guilds, you can check for swift traps by looking at what your guildies hit

[meager mauve]

I'd appreciate it if you did not air your personal greivances in my help thread. And I would appreciate it if you didn't project your personal feelings onto me. I don't hate anyone.

That said, I am grateful for your help and I sincerely appreciate your efforts to help me learn.

[meager mauve]

I've been debating on doing this and risking a loss just so I can learn which ones I have a chance to beat out. I need to get a little faster of a swift set before I attempt this.

[fiery geode]

sometimes there are defs that really dont have any super safe turn 2 options

people tend to be scared of losing with a cleave more than losing with a bruiser even if the cleave has a higher win rate, even blind

[meager mauve]

I'm going to take a guess based on my personal experience, but are Odin teams like khmun bastet odin an example of a no T2 option?

[fiery geode]

no you can turn 2 that

tesa elucia triana

[meager mauve]

Hmm.... I haven't seen that defense before. But I think I see how that would be nearly impossible to T2.

I think I will need to build a fast Lushen for Siege and keep Fat Lushen for Arena for now since my swift runes aren't the best. Thank you.

[fiery geode]

no i mean thats the counter to it

[meager mauve]

Yes. I understand. What I'm saying is that besides defenses like this one, if I want to be more safe to Lushen I will need to build a faster one.

[autumn crystal]

Can also race a lot of fast but not tanky defs with galleon Bernard Julie

[meager mauve]

This is my main multi hit cleave at the moment. I need to get another Julie and skill it up. I find there are many places I can use it.

[meager mauve]

Mostly wins today in WGB. Ran into a loss against a weird comp I don't know how to beat without a revive prevention monster:

I thought Covenant + Mihyang would have enough damage to kill the Eladriel, but not enough since I had no def break.

This one the only loss was because Savannah def broke Racuni, then Kaki vio procced 3 times to kill Racuni. Even then I almost won it, Triton just vio procced at the very end to prevent Carc from killing him.

I can't cleave almost any of these teams because I'm at a speed disadvantage with Kahli (Leah cleave), Teon (Lushen), Praline (Double snipe) and Imesety (Copper/Dozer)

I'm confused as to how I'm supposed to know when to cleave or not, as I seem to always be at speed disadvantages no matter the team because they have more base speed + higher speed leads.

[fiery geode]

why are you using water dd (as opposed to fire) and why are you even using dd like cov instead of bruisers

when you're bruisering you don't even need to kill the reviver first or have anti revive. you can kill stuff repeatedly

the whole point of bruisering is that you can sustain infinitely even against bad rng

the triton def has no spd lead... what do you mean you're at a spd disadvantage against it

[meager mauve]

I figured if I used fire it could be attacked by MHW if there was a def break.

[meager mauve]

Triton has higher base speed than any of my monsters besides Poseidon. How am I supposed to know I can cleave safely if he's got higher base speed?

[fiery geode]

how does a fire monster get def broken here

[fiery geode]

what? there is no speed lead on the def side read that again

[meager mauve]

Honestly, I have no idea. I believe I somehow believed MHW to have AoE def break. I see the error of my ways. 😦

[meager mauve]

Right, so here's my question.

I have a speed lead for my cleave, but they do not. However, Triton has higher base speed than all of the monsters on my cleave team. If Triton is on the fastest Swift set, he could still outspeed my cleave team, and if he's got high accuracy, he can decrease my attack bar, which then interrupts the cleave.

So how do I know if it's safe to cleave that when all of my monsters have lower base speed than Triton does?

[young nexus]

its just a basic math, lets say youre using miri, 107 + 24 > 116, 15 spd advantage is plenty, if you still get outspeed then its a rune problem and just farm more

[vale jay]

How come you are hardly cleaving

There's one cleave used in both sets and I think every single defense on the first set can very easily be cleaved (with the second set having a bit more viability for bruisering a couple of them - but still fully cleavable)

Maybe I'm just too entrei brained but
Just looking at first set
To give you a hint on how I assess this
For set 1
None of any of the 5 defenses have a swift threat (just swift Nora lol, but it's never going to be swift Nora)

Mhw elad Riley I wouldnt cleave because it's easier to just put a tank and press auto

The fact that there's no Lushen or Julie used at all against any of these defenses is criminal to me

[fiery geode]

Tell me how much total speed the triton has with no runes, but counting lead and summoner skills. Then tell me how much total speed a teon has with no runes but with mihyang lead

[meager mauve]

No runes but with summoner skills, Triton has 133.4 speed. I think it rounds down, so 133 speed. No runes but with lead and summoner skill, Teon has 135.85, which I believe would round up to 136. I'd have a 3 speed lead with the skill. I see that now. In this instance, I could have used Mihyang, Teon, Lushen.

[fiery geode]

it rounds up btw

[meager mauve]

However, let's just say it was Masha instead of Kaki, I couldn't do it, since Masha has 141 speed with summoners skills, which is a 6 speed difference. So in that instance, I'd need to think of something else right?

[fiery geode]

always rounds up

133.01 = 134

[meager mauve]

Ah. I had read conflicting things. Some said always, some said only after .5, etc.

[fiery geode]

so this is correct

technically though triton still has a spd advantage because if you consider the same swift set on both triton vs teon

the swift set gives you more spd with higher base spd

but anyway you get my point

teon is slow, theres plenty of faster boosters you can use

to easily outspeed triton regardless

[meager mauve]

I'll need to look them up. Right now Teon/Kona are the only two I know of. Admittedly that's just because I'm going off of the bare bones Fat Lushen setup.

[fiery geode]

theres other cleaves besides lushen

[meager mauve]

Partially because I'm still new to PvP and confused about certain concepts. Partially because I have lower confidence in my cleave teams because I don't believe my monsters are runed super well. Partially because I'm scared to lose a speed race. It's much less scary to just plan on taking T2 rather than attempting to win a T1 race. Large combination of random stuff.

[meager mauve]

I'm going to write up a spreadsheet that calculates the speeds of all of my current cleave team boosters. Then I'm going to calculate the speeds of the fastest opposing monster (or the threat that can prevent my cleave). If I understand it correctly, as long as my booster has a speed advantage, then I can cleave. Or should I be racing more?

[fiery geode]

yes

if you're not confident in your swift you can even say you can only safely cleave if you have 5 spd advantage

or something like that

what are your cleaves? theres no reason you shouldn't have the following runed and ready to go:

• mihyang teon lushen
• gemini kahli leah
• galleon bernard julie
• praline cov +1 (kahli, shren, taru, maybe a nat 5 if you have, etc theres literally a dozen options)
• dozer imesety copper

[fiery geode]

oh shit you have tiana too

[meager mauve]

These are all the current cleaves I've got.

[fiery geode]

your thought process when you look at a set of wgb defs

[meager mauve]

Yes, but she's not tuned to anything. I just kind of hastily threw her together. I need to sit down and tune a team with Tiana

[fiery geode]

literally should be "what cleave can i use vs this"

thats the first thought you should have

or it doesn't even have to be open ended "what cleave can i use"

it can be "can i lushen this"

if the answer is no, then you can think "is there another cleave i can use"

then you move to the second def. can i use [insert next cleave you have ready on your list] against this

[meager mauve]

Let me see if I can get you some examples of places where I want to cleave but don't feel confident and see if I'm just going about this wrong.

[fiery geode]

just start with this set

seara minato douglas. can you lushen it?

[meager mauve]

I didn't think so.
1.) Minato outspeeds my Teon with his 24 speed lead.
2.) Douglas passive

[fiery geode]

ok so heres the part where you need some experience to understand how units are built

minato is not going to be on swift

swift threats need a way to potentially disrupt a team that has full immunity

so minato is not a good swift threat

[meager mauve]

Oooooohhhhh. That's something I didn't understand.

[fiery geode]

if you really think this guy is crazy and potentially has minato on has fastest swift set (again, almost 0% chance but lets just play along)

then you can also consider his skillset and ask what he can do if he goes first

well he just has single target attack, you can just tank it with for example using a fire monster as your spd lead like khmun

now even if he does outspeed you, he cant' do anything to your lushen

or your kona/teon thats boosting your lushen

so this is why minato is a bad swift threat, and thus is not a swift threat and no one is running him on swift

[meager mauve]

I see what you're saying. And neither of the other two monsters will ever be on Swift either. So in other words the speed lead is beatable with Swift because they are almost never going to be on Swift unless the guy is nuts.

[fiery geode]

nuts or bad

[meager mauve]

And even if they are runed on Swift, it means that I'll cleave anyway since the units aren't built optimally in the first place.

[fiery geode]

in case anyone else is reading this - once you get to super high levels where people are cooking traps against specific offenses then yea there are exceptions

but don't worry about it for this level

yes now onto your second point

douglas passive - what about it?

[meager mauve]

It can lower crit chance based on the attack difference between Lushen and Douglas. In other words, Lushen might not deal much damage at all. It's a low possibility, but still possible.

And if he runes his Douglas to have really high attack it could be that he could immediately one shots Lushen. I'd then be depending on Mihyang to kill him. Which, if I'm being 100% honest, I don't think I have a Mihyang that is runed particularly well.

Which could result in a lost battle if the Douglas has enough health to tank glancing hits from Lushen as well as the S2 from Mihyang.

[fiery geode]

lushen is not supposed to be able to 1 shot all 3 monsters on a def

that is not how a lushen team works

a monster being able to survive lushen doesnt make the def unlushenable

[meager mauve]

Right. The other two members of the team are supposed to clean up after Lushen goes.

[fiery geode]

if your mihyang can't kill douglas, you don't have your mihyang built correctly

this isn't an issue of rune quality

[meager mauve]

Let me share my Mihyang. This is probably the case.

[fiery geode]

mihyang and tiana can share the same set.

[fiery geode]

yep see what i said above

[meager mauve]

How exactly do I need to build Mihyang? I know she needs to be faster for more S2 damage, but don't I also need to balance ATK + CD too?

I've seen 2 ways of building her, but I'm not sure which is the ideal. First is to run SPD/CD/HP with Vio. I would think that's Defense only.

Second is SPD/CD/ATK on Swift. But I don't see anywhere in PvP where it says Mihyang should be on a Swift set, otherwise she'd probably be listed as one of the fastest sets, no?

Admittedly my Mihyang is on neither of those builds, but I was dumb and listened to my guildmates tell me to put her on my fastest Rage set.

[fiery geode]

dont ask your guildies about anything or listen to them on anything please

if this feels bad then join a better guild

sorry mihyang isn't specifically discussed in beginner pvp as a lushen lead since her buff was more recent than that

but yes she is runed exactly same as tiana

fast spd cd atk

the reason for the speed is that you need her to clean up and move before anyone on the def moves

additionally

because she has speed scaling

trading atk/cd for more spd

doesn't even reduce her damage

so the cost of making her fast is actually 0

(in terms of her dmg output, compared to say like tiana)

you are correct that spd cd hp vio would be a def only build

[vale jay]

Another thing to add
Being afraid of losing is good
I did not cleave at all outside of Tiana for a very long time
That is always a mistake. Always. I know you don't want to get outsped and fuck up something but you need to lose to learn
I'll be honest also bruiser winrate is generally just worse than cleave
Even when people send shit blind and there is a swift threat, the swift threat has to use the right skill a lot of the time or something else
Like it's just, cleaving is almost always preferable if it's an option

As far as getting outsped goes like jx says here
Don't race on fair grounds if you really are scared and don't know what will/won't be built swift especially

[meager mauve]

Thank you very much. This is particularly helpful for me. My goal is to have a 90% wr in this guild before I attempt to join a better one. So far I've been unable to even get 100% on a single Siege day. So this is great advice for me. Just lose anyway. I'm not planning on getting anywhere anytime soon, so just lose and learn.

[vale jay]

There's also creative ways to get around not having great swift runes

There's a shitton of easy solutions but just to give an idea

[meager mauve]

Okay, I also doubt my Tiana is runed very well. Let me share my Tiana and see if I can improve it....

[vale jay]

If you are scared what if you just run full will turn two double oni cleave
Not saying it's the perfect answer or anything, but there's no strip and even if Jeanne invinc karnal the odds of losing a 3v1 with, say, galleon suiki kaki is so low that you may as well not even entertain it

You could miss def breaks and get giga unlucky and lose

[meager mauve]

What if Jeanne taunts all 3, Karnal stuns, and Vero stuns?

[vale jay]

But I feel like as long as one lands you are very unlikely to lose with your three very strong bruisers

[meager mauve]

That could end up disastrous could it not?

[vale jay]

Read the first sentence

What did I say

[meager mauve]

Oh full will.

I'm dumb. Missed that. Sorry.

[vale jay]

Turn 2

You intentionally give them turn 1

[meager mauve]

I like that idea. I will just have to implement it later. My Will runes are average at best because I'm farming GBAH nonstop currently to get a faster Swift set.

[vale jay]

So you would build everything like 205 or some shit
Even slower if you want, or just don't use galleon lead

Why do they need to be good

I feel like

You have two white will runes

And 4 decent fatal runes

This set up wins very very often

Or if you don't have fatal run another set

Full broken even outside of will if it's what you would need to be tanky enough

[meager mauve]

Hmmm...... That's not something I'd considered before.

[vale jay]

Like

You misunderstand I feel that

The way this works

The suggestions you get

Should win rune gapped

And when I see a list of defenses like this

I know 150% that this player has shit runes or doesn't rune their monsters properly

So even if

[meager mauve]

Well that's part of the problem. I also have bad runes and don't rune my monsters properly. XD

[fiery geode]

having bad runes is just an excuse

[vale jay]

Do you think I always had good runes

[fiery geode]

not runing your monsters properly is true, but that is what we're trying to help you with

[vale jay]

I made a thread just like this when my fastest swift for dova was like fucking +180 or something insane like that

[fiery geode]

saying "i have bad runes" is the easiest cop out lazy answer possible

[vale jay]

Yeeep

[meager mauve]

That's fair.

[vale jay]

You can look

[fiery geode]

like therion said 100% of our suggestions are designed to work with you having WORSE runes than the def

[vale jay]

I have a few threads here

[meager mauve]

I'm going to do that actually. Is it in the old help and advice, or this new one?

[fiery geode]

i am not out of touch or only know what its like to play at a high level, ive literally played 4 different accounts from scratch through G1 siege

[vale jay]

My runes are still nothing outstanding. I also led a guild with people that had some of the worst runes you will ever see and we did some pretty good things together

There's a link

Basically like some people who give siege advice

I'll be honest

Are very out of touch rune standard wise when we are talking about new players

I'm not thankfully still, I hope haha

Jx also of course isn't

He balled hard on a budget with our good friend summoner1722

(beginner pvp account)

But yes fixing your runes

One step at a time

The Tiana looks very rough for sure but

You do what you must

[meager mauve]

90% of your advice has been generic stuff that isn't even high level. It's just basic knowledge, so if you got that impression, I apologize. I definitely don't think this.

Beginner PvP is a great example of how familiar you'd be with G1 PvP with non-premium runes.

[fiery geode]

thank you for clearing that up, because when you say "i don't have good runes"

it does imply that "your advice may only be valid for people with good runes"

[meager mauve]

Yes, that's never what I'm saying. I usually say that because I'm generally considering my runes to be garbage tier, and if they have better runes than me (which I don't think is THAT difficult to do) then I'm worried I'll get stomped because my runes are so garbage.

Not that it's only valid for good runes.

If that makes sense.

In other words, "your advice would work for anyone that isn't me because I'm bad at the game". XD

Part of why I'm trying to heavily to do PvP stuff is because I'm also trying to learn runes better. PvE runing was super easy. Just find stats and slap it on the monster. PvP runing is much more difficult for me. I find that there are runes that I can use that I hadn't even considered previously, such as a perfect CR Nem rune on my Psamathe

[vale jay]

You can do cdmg no?

Or are we balling on a budget

[meager mauve]

It's on Slot 5.

[vale jay]

What do you mean

[meager mauve]

Use it on my Psamathe for AO.

Specifically for other Psamathe defenses that I fat lushen.

(As per advice given by jx9 when I pulled him)

But that rune, I almost sold it because I didn't think I'd ever have any use for a CR Nem rune.

But little did I know that Psamathe could use it.

And for reference, this is what I mean when I say "My runes aren't any good". In retrospect, I should probably start saying "my monsters aren't built well" rather than rune quality

I'm also saying it because I'm still attempting to learn what runes work well on which monsters. I should probably ask for more advice and get more solid ideas on how monsters should be built.

I just feel bad asking about every single monster because I feel like I should know how to do it myself.

And I don't want to bother the guides here with my dumb questions of "how do I rune Mihyang"

Which, in turn, gets me into the scenario with my Mihyang, so obviously my methods aren't working out in general.

Anyway, thank you both for your advice. I consider myself very lucky to have such experienced and knowledgeable players practically at my beck and call.

[meager mauve]

60% winrate today in Siege. I attempted a few things specifically just to learn. I went into 2 of them knowing full well I had a high probability to lose. I just wanted to learn.

My first 5 were really easy. Just use safe cleaves on comps I know they work on. It was those 4 losses that I was kind of experimenting on.

[fiery geode]

you can experiment outside of a real siege too btw

[meager mauve]

The Dark Ciri, Eshir Truffle defense, I should have brought a cleanser such as Lulu. If I had a 3rd Racuni I would have brought him instead.

[meager mauve]

You mean via the battle research?

I would do that if I had any idea how monsters should be built. I don't even know how a monster like Savannah is supposed to be built.

And she's super common.

[fiery geode]

this is why i always push people getting into better guilds

you can have guildies help or test into their defs that they've built already not just in research

the dark ciri eshir truffle is a very very tough def to beat

your idea wasn't too bad, yes lulu would ahve been much better than vigor here

[meager mauve]

I think Lulu probably would have landed me the win, since khmun only died because he was stunned on his turn twice in a row so he couldn't attack Dark Ciri.

[fiery geode]

galleon tiana into chandra ritesh nora is fine in general but it really depends on what +1 you use. liesel is not good because of ritesh

how did the lushen fail against seara anavel juno?

[meager mauve]

Teon never moved.

[fiery geode]

you got outsped by what

[meager mauve]

All of them. 😄

[fiery geode]

?

lol what

[meager mauve]

They all moved before the Teon did.

[fiery geode]

ok then you gotta start swapping your fastest swift set around

tractor into seara was really dumb, if you want a water tank for that you need rina or camilla

[meager mauve]

I think that was my fastest set actually....

[fiery geode]

and then due to aoe def break from anavel you cannot also have lulu

need fire units

[fiery geode]

no way

[meager mauve]

Running the calcs right now, but if I remember right, that was the fastest possible set I could get on Teon.

Yup. That's the fastest set I can get.

Fastest by 2 speed.

Hence why I currently live in GBAH

But even then, this was a dumb decision because all of them outspeed regardless.

Anavel: 146 base w/ lead + skills
Seara: 139 base w/ lead + skills
Juno: 139 base w/ lead + skills

Teon: 136 base w/ lead + skills

But this was my experiment. I thought that the only monster possibly running Swift would be Anavel, and I didn't think Anavel moving would matter since there's no ATB pushback and Teon resurges Lushen anyway.

And since all 3 would be squishy (supposedly) I could Lushen and then Mihyang could finish them off.

But Teon was too slow.

[fiery geode]

no this was a correct cleave

i dont know what's wrong with your runes

[meager mauve]

Yeah, this was also an experiment. I just wanted to see if Leisel was actually any good into a wind unit like Ritesh. I'm not sure who I run here as a fire ATB pushback. I have Poseidon, but again, not sure that works into Ritesh.

[fiery geode]

read pos s3

he would have been better here

still not the best but better than liesel

[fiery geode]

i dont know maybe something else is going on

[meager mauve]

Oh I didn't know about the non glancing hit. I only knew about the ATB pushback. That's useful info.

[fiery geode]

you should save replays next time

[meager mauve]

I did. All of them.

I can share a couple if you'd like.

[fiery geode]

show it with runes

[meager mauve]

Which one? The Lushen one?

[fiery geode]

show the lushen loss replay and also show teon runes

[meager mauve]

https://streamable.com/21jt14

left arti

right arti

Also Teon is not level 40 because I have 2 of them. One I use for GBAH and the other I use for Siege and I constantly forget to level the Teon. Though, I'm not entirely sure that matters too much.

I'll just level him to 40 now.... Might as well since it's fresh.

[fiery geode]

this is what i mean, this cannot possibly be your fastest swift set

[meager mauve]

Let me see if I can do some more digging, but I took time to look through each Swift rune in each slot and found the highest speeds I could manage.

[fiery geode]

i dont know whawt you mean you took the time

it literally takes 2 seconds to do this with the in game rune manager

[meager mauve]

Well you can only get 4 swift runes per, and then you want the other 2 to be the fastest runes you've got right?

[fiery geode]

i just dont understand how this is possible

if you are doing any sort of farming at all

[meager mauve]

So you have to take some time to find the fastest swift runes + the fastest runes after that. If I have a despair rune that has higher speed than a swift rune, I'd want to try and use that, so I had to balance which swifts would be fastest.

[fiery geode]

also if you have swgt personal or in a guild with swgt

this info is directly in your account analytics

i wish i could like

[meager mauve]

Neither currently. Though I did want to get it for the rune analytics. Yet another reason to get into a better guild....

[fiery geode]

see all the runes you farm in 1 day

[meager mauve]

Hmmm..... Perhaps I could just show you the fastest swift runes I have in each slot, and then the fastest runes in those respective slots. That might give a better idea on what's up.

I did just find that my Slot 6 rune was not the fastest possible rune for that slot. I gave it the fastest one and that bumped it up slightly.

But that's a side issue.

[fiery geode]

are you just relying on swop all the time?

your fastest set should be something you just know because you farmed the runes and remember getting those fast runes

[meager mauve]

I pretty much never use it unless I'm having trouble deciding between rune sets or need some help to organize which set goes on which slot.

[meager mauve]

I farmed all of my swift runes a long time ago, quit for a while, then came back. I don't remember any of them to be honest.

[fiery geode]

ok sorry this is just getting sidetracked

tl;dr

keep doing what you're doing, keep farming giants, you'll get faster stuff sooner or later

the mihyang teon lushen offense against seara juno anavel was a very good choice

you lost to a rune quality issue not a team issue or build issue

those types of losses are not bad at all

[meager mauve]

Actually it's good that we sidetracked, I did manage to find 3 replacement runes to make it faster, but still not quite up to snuff I think.

[fiery geode]

???

that's literally 20 spd faster

[meager mauve]

The swift slot 4 I farmed 2 days ago and forgot to put it on Teon. The Despair slot 5 I actually just farmed a couple hours ago, and the nem slot 6 I had sitting on a monster in storage and I usually hide equipped runes.

I should get out of that habit now though.

[meager mauve]

But this is a good example of what I mean. When I say my runes are bad, it's because for some reason I'm just a complete idiot when I'm in this game. I don't know why it's so difficult for me to just understand basic things like "turn off hide equipped runes" but I do those dumb things and don't even know that it affects my play.

Like I found my fastest swift set was 20 speed slower than it should be because I didn't tick that box. That's not a rune issue, that's a me being dumb issue. But I say my runes are bad because I never know how dumb I'm being.

It's also why I lack confidence in my ability to cleave, because I don't have confidence in my ability to rune properly. I also don't believe that I can move to a higher guild and be successful because I feel like these fundamental issues will prevent me from succeeding anywhere but in a high P3/low G1 guild.

[fiery geode]

its fine just relax and go at your own pace

sometimes you need to say things out loud

to realize your dumb mistakes

like thinking mhw had an aoe def break i'm still laughing at that

[meager mauve]

yeah, once you pointed that out, I honestly dropped my phone and actually facepalmed. My wife got startled and asked what happened. hahahahaha

Question now: Do ticks take into account skills + leads?

Or do the monsters have to be on the tick in order to get it?

[fiery geode]

ticks are after skills and leads

a carc with +130 spd is 286 tick

[meager mauve]

Teon is 1 speed from next tick, so do I need to farm grinds until I can get that last legend grind to a +5?

[fiery geode]

ticks dont matter for cleaves

you're just going for as fast as possible

the importance of ticks comes in you cycling turns

that's not relevant for a cleave that's over in 1 or 2 turns

[meager mauve]

Well I'm mostly asking because for example, Teon was on the same tick as the Seara Juno Anavel all were. If Teon is fast enough to be on next tick, I win that fight easily.

But that makes sense. It's all just as fast as I can get it, doesn't matter if it's on a tick or not.

So farming more SR5 seems to be the next thing to do after I get GBAH farmed.

Thanks again. Your patience with my stupidity is much appreciated. 😄

[fiery geode]

the ticks are completely irrelevant

if your teon is the fastest then you win

if your teon gets outsped then you lose

there are no ticks at play here

[meager mauve]

Oh also, you mentioned that Poseidon would have been better in taht Chandra/Ritesh/Nora comp. But not the best. Who would have been best?

[fiery geode]

nvm pos is best here outside of lds

[meager mauve]

I think I was just outruned on my 2nd WGB this go around. Dozer/Copper/Imesety would work but the Mo Long AND the Louise survived with probably 1k HP each. Also the Perna vio procced 8 times in 2 turns. I wish I was exaggerating.

The Galleon Bernard Julie was an attempt to see how things would play out. All 3 survived with probably 1k HP as well. A better Julie would have won that for me I think.

The Praline/Kahli/Taru I thought would work, but Byungchul's passive is too strong. Kahli didn't even get him to half health. I know now that Byungchul isn't a good sniper target, as well as not a good Lushen target.

The Khmun/Racuni/Cov was a bad idea to begin with. I thought Cov could snipe Minato and then Khmun/Racuni could 2v2, but I forgot that Tesarion passive obliterates them. Terrible comp into Tesarion.

Though I'm not sure how to beat a strong Tesarion. He survives all cleaves, and if I attempt to set up something like Malite he just gets oblivioned. I suppose I have to run Khmun/Racuni/Malite and then just speed up Racuni endlessly.

I didn't really think there was a good Lushen target besides MAYBE the Carc/Camilla/Ceila, but even then, Camilla, if tanky enough, could survive and possibly 1v3 with vio procs.

Tesarion would survive it for sure, and he'd obliterate my Lushen and Teon with just 1 vio proc, and I don't think my Mihyang can kill him with the Lushen doing so little against him.

Byungchul gonna Byungchul on that comp.

And then the Mo Long/Perna I probably could have, but I thought Dozer/Copper/Imesety would be safer since Perna couldn't one shot any of them without insane vio procs (which he got anyway)

But much more cleaving this time around. And much more willingness to just lose and learn. Hence the Praline team loss. I just wanted to try it out and see if it worked at all.

[fiery geode]

show your copper/dozer runes and compare to summoner1722

the team isn't too bad, this is just rune issue

[fiery geode]

this was a very bad choice. you need to be targeting fast squishy stuff with julie. none of chandra nora sav are squishy

[fiery geode]

this is iffy, there's many things to note at play here that makes this not super straightforward for a double snipe

first, even without a spd lead, its possible for miles to outspeed you. read his passive, he gains a lot of spd for free

second, byung - in general it is not safe to try to 1 shot him, even after his nerf

that doesn't mean that you can't use double snipe comps against him though. you can save him for last

so for example you snipe miles and ophilia first, then 3v1 byung

however it's still not even that straightforward, even 3v1 byung is risky. you need at least 1 fire monster, but kahli is not great at all for 2 reasons - first she is squishy, you can almost die to 1 byung s2 aoe if byung is low hp. second if you buff with her, byung can potentially steal a 2 turn invincibility from her lol

if you have claire or fire kass those are better fire nuker options

overall though for this def - its super easy to bruiser, because there's literally 0 def breaks on their side, and minimal aoe

you don't have to force yourself to try to cleave everything if there's brusier options that you can hit auto on with a 100% win chance

[fiery geode]

you can't snipe anything when molly is there anyway (other than molly herself)

so yes this is the def you should have used praline on

snipe molly, snipe minato, and it works out great that the leftover monster is fire for your praline to tank as you 3v1 it

you are correct that trying to snipe tesa is risky and not advised. but good thing you dont have to

if you want to bruiser though, malite is actually the tank of choice vs tesa

the damage reduction malite gets in gargoyle form comes from his s2, not his passive

so even if he gets oblivioned he still has the damage reduction

[fiery geode]

yea nothing on this 2nd set was lushenable. rare but its fine, there are other cleaves

[vale jay]

You Julie'd cvt

O_o

Just tractor windy lulu

Omg they had the triple werewolf defense

LOL

For this eshir vigor jultan shit

There's no cleanse

You can just bomb it

I feel like you spam lcl a bit too much honestly

Like the team is not bad but you are super overusing it

[meager mauve]

It says in the pvp guide to Julie CVT because it's safe on Triana.

[vale jay]

Hmm

[meager mauve]

It's just a cleave I have and it uses an LD, so pretty much can be used anywhere.

[vale jay]

I don't agree with this honestly, I think it's very easy to get tank twins will/nem Shaina and you lose this

That's interesting

@fiery geode ?

I remember testing actually now

Julie vs mst

And I found it wasnt hard to trap
But I feel like most people don't trap and you win a lot of the time
Even if you miss def breaks

[fiery geode]

no one is trapping anything in g1, overall it should be fine

[meager mauve]

The only reason I used Galleon Bernard Julie vs this comp is because they did not have Triana. They had Mimirr, which meant that there was no chance they could heal. Against Martina Shaina Triana I pretty much exclusively run Tien Qin Raoq Verde. I don't attempt really any other comps.

[meager mauve]

No bombers built actually. I will shamefully admit that I skipped that part of the PvP guide becuase I was too busy working on other monsters like Khmun, Racuni, Covenant, Carc, etc.

But part of the PvP guide says to just focus on building one thing at a time, and it should be based on what you find you need. Not skilled enough at the game to know when I could use a bomber.

[vale jay]

It's ok. This isn't a race, it's a marathon

[vale jay]

I'm talking about carcano vigor triana

It doesn't say mimirr here I'm confused

[meager mauve]

You were talking about Martina Shaina Triana

[lapis pecan]

scarlet_roses

[Message Link](#1232589438211850330 message) to #1232589438211850330
I don't agree with this honestly, I think it's very easy to get tank twins will/nem Shaina and you lose this

Req. by jaykeblakk. Quote from · Aug 23, 2024, 5:42 PM

[vale jay]

Okay wait hold on I'm confused

Ok we are talking about this now

[meager mauve]

So the only place where I used Julie vs Martina and Shaina was in the Mimirr comp in WGB

I think you went from CVT to MST on accident

[vale jay]

Oh youre right

My brain wasn't working

Sorry

So the thing is

[meager mauve]

No problem. Mine apparently only likes to do half time on SW anyway. XD

[vale jay]

CVT right

What if it's cdmg Triana and Julie glances

You (can) just lose

Because vigor triana can win this 2v3

[meager mauve]

I think that's going to be up to the Galleon strength really. If Galleon is built to be a strong bruiser I think that would be quite hard.

[vale jay]

That's not true

Vigor and Triana have a shitton of sustain and Triana does a lot of damage

Her s1 multiplier is very high

Maybe you have never fought it

But cdmg Triana isn't even necessarily rare

[meager mauve]

It's rare at G1 I think. I've never seen that before.

But higher levels, it might be. It does mention that there really isn't a bad way to build Triana

[vale jay]

I've fought it plenty back when I played in g1

The thing is

Cdmg Triana can also beat TWL

So it's not like it's an infinitely superior solution or something

I mean it's up to you, you can do what you want and listen to what you want to listen to

I'd prefer to prepare you to play against people who will rune their defenses better

Like obviously no good guilds run CVT anymore

[meager mauve]

I think @fiery geode would need to explain it. All I know is that the guide says it works, and I haven't had it fail yet.

[vale jay]

Why would jx need to explain it lol

We are both siege mains
He is a much better siege player than I am I agree but I am not unqualified to give you advice

[meager mauve]

Because I honestly don't know what the reasoning is other than "that's what the guide says". I don't know what the explanation would be if there's a chance of a CD Triana. The point is to get 90% wr.

[vale jay]

Your goal is 90% winrate right now?

[meager mauve]

I suppose at the present, my goal isn't 90%. That's an eventual goal.

[vale jay]

OK so is your goal 90% in G1?

[meager mauve]

Basically, I'm just confused. Why would Julie be recommended for CVT when it has a (relatively) high chance of failing?

[vale jay]

It's not relatively high chance

[meager mauve]

Yes. That's what I'd like to achieve. I don't know if I can really move into higher guilds with a lower win rate.

[vale jay]

I will explain in a few minutes

Give me a second

[meager mauve]

No problem. Take all the time you need. 😄

[vale jay]

Ok a few things
First of all I obviously respect jx a lot as a siege player - he was one of the main people that taught me. Actually we are probably going to be guildies this season, I'm just hammering some things out in personal life, but we both love siege a lot and have great passion for it
I've learned a lot from him, jx and entrei were my two biggest mentors in siege and I wouldn't be half the player I am without them

That being said I don't think we necessarily are always going to agree on things, and there's nothing wrong with that either
I understand the mentality of "no one in g1 will do X"
But this is goal dependant for you. Do you want to play in g1 siege for an extended period of time? Because if that is your goal then it's different - I personally think if you're looking to grow as a player you should be developing good habits early

Because lets say

Next season you end up in G2/G3 siege
And some guild you pull is running backline of one of these common defenses (lets just use carcano vigor triana for example - very unlikely but I go on principle)
Are you going to julie then?

Because assuming people are stupid/going to build incorrectly is a great way to feed wins

Like I'm not saying
prepare for every possible trap/only bring the absolute best teams, be hyper aware of 29340832409832409823 things.
I know you can't do that as a newer player - it just isn't feasible or possible

Starting to develop that understanding early is a fuckton better than doing it when you're in your first G3 siege. trust me. i've walked the walk.

I think 90% winrate in g1 is a great place to start as a goal

I like that and I support you in that endeavor for sure

There are many retired strong accounts in g1. many strong retired accounts

I can't both help you and make you believe I have good guidance to give - that's up to you to decide
It's also very possible for two players that are good at siege to have differing opinions, keep that in mind

[meager mauve]

This I can believe. I'm in the lowest of the low G1 you can get (as in, if we lose 1 or 2 Sieges we go to P3) and I've seen quite a few retired accounts already.

[meager mauve]

1.) You have great guidance. I do not doubt that at all. If you are getting that impression, I'm very sorry. I don't believe you or anyone else has better advice than another person.

[vale jay]

Don't worry jx has better guidance to give

You are misguided

lmao, i kid i kid

[meager mauve]

2.) That being said, that is true that you can have differing opinions, and if that's the case, then I'll just need to make up my mind on what I like/think is best and move forward.

[vale jay]

in all seriousness, I must be misunderstanding then, because that's what it seemed like when you said we gotta consult the big boss

[meager mauve]

Nononononono. I'm sorry. That's not what I meant.

He's the one that wrote the guide that said "You're looking to hunt Carc Vigor Triana" with Julies.

[vale jay]

that's fucking crazy to me

[meager mauve]

I don't know why he wrote it, or how he can explain that when CD Triana is a thing.

[vale jay]

I am sure he has good reasons

[meager mauve]

Same. I just don't know what they are other than "it's safe on Triana because of multihits"

WHich is why I pinged him.

[vale jay]

vigor and triana

is a very strong core

[meager mauve]

I'm sorry you felt like I was looking for "better advice" or "calling your manager". Absolutely not the case.

[vale jay]

i want to point this out

hahaha

:D

[fiery geode]

wait wait wait

[vale jay]

there was a time i was playing g3 siege and jx was with me actually and I TWL'd it and almost lost

[fiery geode]

when did i say you should be hunting carc vigor triana with julies

[meager mauve]

One sec

[vale jay]

lmao

i was gonna say jx

[fiery geode]

i mean my perspective is this

i don't disagree with anything therion just said

and i wouldn't first think julie against that def either

but when i help someone

[meager mauve]

Siege offense - Julie continued

lots of words

Final note about where to use this team - you're hunting speed defs with relatively squishy monsters like Carc, Kaki, Iris, etc. Triana is safe to hit since you have multihits. For example, Carc Vigor Triana, or Gal Clara Kaki.

[fiery geode]

i try to prioritize the help a bit

[vale jay]

you're right

[meager mauve]

That's verbatim from the guide.

[fiery geode]

i think you can do a lot worse than julieing carc vigor triana

additionally

i've practically given up on hammering down on bad offenses that people "haven't lost with"

[vale jay]

i should stop trying to also

[fiery geode]

its just not worth the effort, they'll find out soon enough for themselves

[vale jay]

honestly

it's so much energy

remember the good old days when i was a persistent water twins into MST user despite everyone telling me it's not good idea

then i lost one time and i was like

wait shit everyone is right i'm a fucking idiot

and never used water twins into MST again ever

[fiery geode]

huh interesting

i mean again i can go both ways on this right now

[meager mauve]

I promise I'm not making things up this time!

[vale jay]

lmao

[fiery geode]

if someone julies cvt i'm not going to say anything

but if someone asks for help against cvt i will suggest other things first

[vale jay]

i'm sure it probably wins 90% of the time right

[fiery geode]

i think part of it is a slight meta shift

where vigors are being built to tank this stuff more and more

in the past vigors were like 99% vio/destroy

and you could always cleave them

i remember when writing this guide, that was the biggest thing about determining stuff that was julieable

[vale jay]

we used to have a saying in CV
"80% winrate policy" whenever someone brought in an offense that very clearly had flaws
"yeah it's ok guys dont worry its 80% winrate offense"
i'm sure julie wins at least 90% of the time, probably more

[fiery geode]

the chance of def monsters having will or not

you would hunt for monsters that specifically are rare to be runed on will

it's a bit different now but it's still pretty key

[vale jay]

ok actually has that changed with vigor? that would be news to me too, that's interesting

very interesting

[fiery geode]

julie as an offense is just more and more prominent now than before

[vale jay]

fucking thanks furyn

[fiery geode]

people rune stuff on will specifically to counter julie

in the past when you have a bruiser like khmun or vigor

no one ever runed them on will

it was always destory

[meager mauve]

Surprisingly enough, I see this alot in G1

[fiery geode]

well

in lower levels

they aren't runing them on will to counter julie

they are runing them on will because they heard vio/will is a good pvp set

i promise you none of these will users are stacking enough hp with the will to trap julie anyway

[vale jay]

they heard wrong

[meager mauve]

Okay, naturally this makes me ask, what are the other options for CVT that you guys woudl recommend besides the TWL or the Julie ones?

I don't know of any other cleaves that could work besides attempting a snipe with kahli maybe, but even then if Triana is tanky enough she might just survive it.

[vale jay]

this is some wisdom of the ancients shit here

sec

let me try to remember