eeh if you get a big group of people speculating over things they see
#beta-ptr-spoilers
cyan prairie
jade basalt
In my opinion Shadowlands would work better as a raid or patch than as a continent. I just don't find the idea that appealing to spend 2 entire years on... some floating island in the afterlife?
novel zodiac
All interesting that's left in the wow universe are the void lords, but there's no fucking way that the next expansion is about them, we're probabbly getting a filler like WoD was
modest temple
like nyalotha. its probably all they have conceptually
sullen dawn
Unless it's like 9.2 stuff
dense plover
dragon isles is almost definitely the core or focus of next expac at this point
too much dragon dialogue
way too much
cyan prairie
In my opinion the Dragon Isles would work better as a single patch since there is nothing to do there, after N'zoth is dead - since there are shrines of N'zoth there, i see no reason to go there if N'zoth is already dead.
sullen dawn
But theres a huge amount of death dialogue too
sullen dawn
Yeh but for like 70% of the expansion
jade basalt
And it'd just be very weird to sum up the entire afterlife as that one landmass you play on. It's like the Emerald Dream or Ny'alotha, they couldn't translate an entire dimension/universe into a continent, it would be very odd, so instead we only get glimpses of them, through a raid or quest etc.
cyan prairie
There are many more death-related things in BfA than to dragons
dense plover
no there arent
cyan prairie
The Dragons role in BfA is to help us fight N'zoth
sullen dawn
Dude
distant folio
"So that's the afterlife?"
"Yeah the afterlife is just like 4-5 zones."
sullen dawn
That's just 8.2
dense plover
uh, no
cyan prairie
The entire questline is making another Dragon Soul to defeat N'zoth
modest temple
not core. but an added element
sullen dawn
8.0 and 8.1 have way more death stuff
modest temple
never thought of the quests like that
dense plover
wait
modest temple
huh
dense plover
that is 8.2
dense plover
i still expect 9.0 to be dragon isles
cyan prairie
Dragons appeared randomly and suddenly they are the main content?
dense plover
since 8.3 isnt
dragon isles is an easy set of zones too
each dragon has a core theme
sullen dawn
8.0 (gorak Tull, thros, witches, zul)
cyan prairie
Everything?
cyan prairie
We don't even have a reason to go there
dense plover
WRATHION HAS BEEN LOOKING FOR THEM
novel zodiac
we already got a dragons expansion
dense plover
AND WE ARE HELPING WRATHION
sullen dawn
8.1 (bwonsamdi, vol jin, lich king, eyir)
dense plover
wrathion is literally a direct tie in
cyan prairie
And we helped the Mag'har with their Draenei problem
modest temple
eh.. i liked the idea of a floating island with some titan tower or w/e in the center. but i like sonic and knuckles
sullen dawn
Wrathions a dweeb
cyan prairie
are we going back to Draenor?
dense plover
thats not even equivalent
forest sphinx
No. I think the dragon isles are near Northrend
dense plover
youre comparing an AR questline to an entire patch and a half
modest temple
probably not, considering how hard it was for someone to get there
or out of there
dense plover
theyre inbetween lordaeron and Northrend
novel zodiac
who the fuck is Gorak Tul?, i know he's a boss in a dungeon, but wtf?
jade basalt
What I find really interesting is this new line from Il'gynoth in Ny'alotha
Before the last shadow falls, the Father of Sleep shall savor his feast.
I'm usually not one for theories or reading too much into things, but this seems to be a direct reference to Traveler, wher Mueh'zala, who by the way has "Father of Sleep" as one of his titles, says he shall feast on all of Azeroth.
Not saying Shadowlands is correct or whatever, just, it seems that Mueh'zala's completely random appearance at the time in Traveler may have actually had a purpose.
dense plover
they could definitely focus on death stuff
and considering the whispers dont stop
guess what other old god is big and bad?
cyan prairie
Everything leading to a death related expansion > Dragon aspects appearing just because of N'zoth
sullen dawn
This is why I like the original map leak of shadowlands
dense plover
and has been alive since the start of i think bfa or legion
modest temple
gorak tul is explained in drustvar and the final culminating launch content quest for alliance
novel zodiac
Malfurion is the Father of Sleep?
sullen dawn
Cos it says 4 zones in shadowlands, 2 in dragon isles (for those with poor taste)
dense plover
they wouldnt do that
novel zodiac
@modest temple oh, i didn't played the alliance side yet
austere gazelle
father of sleep is Mueh'zala
modest temple
its a fun story
distant folio
Wait I'm confused, @dense plover do you like or do you not like the idea of Dragon Isles as a continent (sorry I've had some trouble following the conversation)
dense plover
im not for or against it
austere gazelle
the last line he had on travelers reference him " feasting on all of azeroth " when he'll return
modest temple
very low stakes. its a threat against a zone and maybe a person. wish we had more low stakes but interesting stories
unborn glacier
@jade basalt "What I find really interesting is this new line from Il'gynoth in Ny'alotha
Before the last shadow falls, the Father of Sleep shall savor his feast.
I'm usually not one for theories or reading too much into things, but this seems to be a direct reference to Traveler, wher Mueh'zala, who by the way has "Father of Sleep" as one of his titles, says he shall feast on all of Azeroth."
Its not a direct reference to Traverler. It is actually a direct reference to a tablet in Zul'farak dedicated to Mueh'Zala, listing his many titles; namely, Father of Sleep.
forest sphinx
Travelers? Are we talking about the book?
dense plover
im against shadowlands because it, as a place, literally doesnt exist
unborn glacier
It is still in game
sullen dawn
But we can visit emerald dream
dense plover
i mean, when we die, the shadowy place we see, is the shadowlands
its literally like a veil
cyan prairie
The Dragon Isles would make much more sense if the Dragon Aspects were actually too weak to empower Heart of Azeroth against N'zoth and if we failed to kill him. We would go there to empower the aspects and find out how to kill or at least weaken N'zoth.
jade basalt
@unborn glacier I'm not sure if you've read my entire comment, because I mention that. But in Traveler, Mueh'zala shows up and says he shall feast on all Azeroth. And Il'gynoth says "the Father of Sleep shall savor his feast." So Il'gynoth is, possibly, referencing that line from Traveler.
sullen dawn
If we can visit emerald dream we can visit shadowlands
modest temple
it took a long time b4 we got some version of the ED
dense plover
that grey version of the world?
sullen dawn
Exactly
cyan prairie
N'zoth dies in the next raid, so we have no reason to go to the Dragon Isles. And saying that "Wrathion is trying to find them" is a bad reason since he did everything ALONE so far.
dense plover
thats the shadowlands
sullen dawn
I know
modest temple
you poked it in wrath then we got nothing for years
cyan prairie
Why would he suddenly need our help
unborn glacier
No, you said it was a reference to Traveler. You didn't mention ZF at all, where the title first appeared all the way back in Vanilla and is still there today I believe
modest temple
isnt the shadowlands just where the player character goes when they die?
austere gazelle
shadowlands is a place, and so is azeroth, and we're having small part of Azeroth each xpack. why not a part of the shadowlands ?
cyan prairie
especially since the greatest threat to him (N'zoth) is already dead?
unborn glacier
@jade basalt
austere gazelle
Draenor is a planet, but we only go to a precise part
modest temple
there isnt much there... we see it every time we die
sullen dawn
A shadowlands 'continent'doesnt have to be a place. It could be a landmass we havent been too in azeroth but theres nothing there in the normal plane
Just dust I normal plane/everything hidden behind veil
modest temple
eh... ghost land mass?
sullen dawn
A normal land mass
jade basalt
@unborn glacier I'm not sure what's difficult to understand: yes, his title was established in Zul'Farrak 15 years ago, but that's irrelevant to the fact that Il'gynoth is referencing Mueh'zala's line about him "savoring his feast on Azeroth" from Traveler.
cyan prairie
not physically in our world
modest temple
but in a ghost only world
sullen dawn
Which is desolate in our side
modest temple
ghost land
modest temple
ok. im with you... get some lttp stuff to flip between life and death there
sullen dawn
Yeh just a concept
modest temple
i dig it
cyan prairie
"Before the last shadow falls, the Father of Sleep shall savor his feast" - Before we kill N'zoth, Mueh'zala will get powerful enough to do his "stuff"
That's how i understand it
cyan prairie
Since he's the last Old God to defeat
tropic trail
Ilgynoth whisper ist 100% referring to traveler in the First place. That should be clear. But also the zul farak thing
cyan prairie
ZF is like 15 years old, and name "Father of Sleep" appeared only there so far
unborn glacier
@jade basalt I'm just stating you used Traveler as the establishment of the title, when for the majority, that book is non-canon to my best knowledge. The logic behind introducing this random person we know nothing about to the story to defeat the God of Death with a Diamond Sword is ridiculous. I just wanted to make sure someone corrected your connection of the title coming from Traveler and not being in-game well before the book ever existed.
jade basalt
I'm just stating you used Traveler as the establishment of the title
No I did not.
when for the majority, that book is non-canon to my best knowledge.
And no that is not correct either.
cyan prairie
Mueh'zala appeared before Traveler
unborn glacier
"I'm usually not one for theories or reading too much into things, but this seems to be a direct reference to Traveler, wher Mueh'zala, who by the way has "Father of Sleep" as one of his titles, says he shall feast on all of Azeroth."
Your own words, my friend
unborn glacier
I did
cyan prairie
He was mentioned in Zul'farrak
sullen dawn
Theres a mueh'zala shrine in zandalar
unborn glacier
You imply it
cyan prairie
on one of the stone Tablets
jade basalt
No I don't.
tropic trail
How are the treveler Not Canon if WE habe even Charakters appearing ingame from that book
jade basalt
I said "who, BY THE WAY, has this title". I didn't say where the title comes from.
distant folio
Dude are you blind? @unborn glacier
distant folio
He literally did not say that the title comes from Traveler.
cyan prairie
distant folio
He said "Mueh'zala, who by the way has this title, says something in Traveler".
It does not mean the title comes from Traveler. That's basic English.
tropic trail
I don't know the names anymore, but there are some people on the mechagon island from traveler's, if I'm not wrong
unborn glacier
No, those are from Hearthstone
distant folio
"Brad Pitt, who by the way has a car, said something in a movie" does not mean Brad Pitt got his car from the movie.
cyan prairie
On Mechagon you meet characters from HS
tropic trail
They are from hearthstone? Oh ok then
unborn glacier
@distant folio That is a disingenuous comparison
distant folio
No it's literally the exact same sentence structure
unborn glacier
Nope.
tropic trail
But I think it's still Canon. The Traveler books
unborn glacier
You are being intentionally reductionist
distant folio
It LITERALLY is, I replaced the name "Mueh'zala" by another name "Brad Pitt", I replaced the object "a title" by the object "a car", and I replaced the location "in Traveler" by the location "in a movie". It's the EXACT same sentence structure.
Only now it made you realize that you read it incorrectly.
unborn glacier
No
cyan prairie
If Blizz (after 15 years) remembers who Mueh'zala is and mentions him in BfA with shrines, Bwonsamdi mentioning his "boss" and even a matching title i doubt it to be an accident.
distant folio
What "no"?
unborn glacier
You are being disingenuous.
distant folio
What
Dude all you've done for the last 20 minutes is just say "no" to everyone without ever saying one correct thing, just no no no. Great argument there.
sullen dawn
People always throw that word around
unborn glacier
No, just to you
sullen dawn
Disingenuous..
jade basalt
I mean this is not even a debate. I did not say that Mueh'zala's title came from Traveler, I stated that he said something in Traveler. Where his title came from, I did not address.
sullen dawn
Hes providing a completely logical string of thoughts with no false pretence
It's not even in question. You're just being obnoxious ranger
unborn glacier
I have corrected many incorrect things in here already, namely Titled claiming the League of Explorers characters from HS are from Traveler
distant folio
Traveler story elements HAVE appeared in the game you peanut
Not these ones, but some others.
unborn glacier
Name any of the main characters from Traveler appearing in game
tropic trail
Yes, that was my mistake
white quartz
Ranger Ive watched this entire thing and it sure as hell looks like you just came here looking for a fight
sullen dawn
But incorrect and disingenuous are not the same thing anyway..
austere gazelle
Ranger, you're wrong. Period xD
distant folio
The book established that "Flllurlokkr" is the Nerglish word for fisherman. Flllurlokkr was later added in Legion, becoming the first in-game reference of the book.
forest sphinx
I don't want to do this but is there a <@&299347348847329281> watching this conversation?
rotund sorrel
yes
unborn glacier
No Kala, I sinply wanted to correct Mind and point out the title originates in-game in ZF all the way back in vanilla. People got defensive 🤷
cyan prairie
Maybe instead of arguing we could actually go back to the actual discussion?
jade basalt
I literally did not say anything about where the title came from, so there's nothing to correct.
I just said "who, by the way, has "Father of Sleep" as one of his titles" - not where it comes from.
sullen dawn
Yeh lets go back to the actual conversation of why shadowlands is superior to dragon isles
tropic trail
What Mind said was, that ilgynoth s whisper is referring to the Traveler books, because Mueh'Zala literally says there he wants to feast on azeroth. And ilgynoth says that he shall have his feast when the last shadow falls
unborn glacier
Your statement implied its origin is from Traveler. I'm sorry you can't understand that. Maybe word yourself a little better and not become defensive when I apply friendly critique.
rotund sorrel
👀
cyan prairie
Guys come on, stop arguing over such stupid things
dense plover
"I dont like the way you said it"
jade basalt
Your statement implied its origin is from Traveler.
Nope. There is literally nothing in the sentence "who, by the way, has "Father of Sleep" as one of his titles" that says anything about the origin of the title.
dense plover
🙄
distant folio
^
forest sphinx
Tone it down guys. I don't want anyone to get in trouble here
rotund sorrel
cough
dense plover
im gonna leave and let you dig your own hole
unborn glacier
I have said my piece, Mind. You are free to disagree ❤
dense plover
👋
cyan prairie
Let's go back to the actual expansion discussion?
tranquil steeple
I have two varying reactions while reading all of this: 
and 
cyan prairie
plz
distant folio
@unborn glacier So if I wrote "Deathwing, who by the way has "the Destroyer" as one of his titles, said he wants to destroy the world in a magazine", does that mean that the title "the Destroyer" comes from a magazine?
cyan prairie
Ah shit. Here we go again...
rotund sorrel
Okay, I'm going to step in and actually say "please change the discussion topic"
because apparently the eyes and coughing don't mean a thing 🙂
distant folio
This guy randomly butts in and starts attacking and "correcting" people who haven't even said what he claims they said for no reason, and then gets mad, I can't
OH sorry, I typed this before you typed this
unborn glacier
Attacking
rotund sorrel
Again, let's change the discussion topic 🙂
tranquil steeple
[11:27 PM] Onyx: Okay, I'm going to step in and actually say "please change the discussion topic"
cyan prairie
Guys give up on that stupid argument already
unborn glacier
Please don't try to apply malicious intent
rotund sorrel
I don't want to make this a song and go for a third verse
unborn glacier
Anyways, I'm sure we'll see elements of Traveler appear in-game, but much in the same way Golden had to beg for the devs to use Calia instead of someone else, I doubt Blizz with introduce an entirely new set of characters from a book with no whit no history in game before. Especially that kid being the one to fight Mueh'Zala with a Diamond Sword.
cyan prairie
Traveler might not be canon, but Mueh'zala for sure is
sullen dawn
Ok new topic. If we did go to the shadowlands. What bosses would you like to see?
cyan prairie
Hakkar
dense plover
^shouldve been in this expac too
cyan prairie
Maybe Kel'thuzad (he's still doing something somewhere)
peak fern
Kel'Thuzad?
unborn glacier
@dense plover From what I heard, the position Calia fills right now, not Legion, was supposed to be a different character.
sullen dawn
Hakkar would be amazing
dense plover
i havent heard that
cyan prairie
More than choosing bosses, i'd like to meet some dead characters
dense plover
dont know who told you that
cyan prairie
like Cairne
sullen dawn
I'd like to see him looking more like this
dense plover
it honestly sounds like bullshit
distant folio
Traveler is canon. There is nothing saying that it is non-canon. And WoWpedia does not list it as non-canon.
dense plover
theres no current way to know whether it is or isnt
novel zodiac
books shouldn't be canon
dense plover
wowpedia has no more knowledge than we do
novel zodiac
if its not in the game then fuck it
dense plover
and the devs havent said
sullen dawn
dense plover
as I said, shouldve been a boss this expac
distant folio
@novel zodiac It is in the game. Well, some elements of Traveler have made it into the game.
novel zodiac
Its not the same
cyan prairie
The only reference to Hakkar we got in BfA was Rastakhan's armor
sullen dawn
Also agreed maldrak. Loads of scope for returning people
novel zodiac
you can't learn all of it in the game
cyan prairie
that looked as if it was made of his "parts"
sullen dawn
Imagine orgrim doomhammer or anduin lothar?
jade basalt
Books are generally canon by default unless stated otherwise.
The RPG books for instance were declared non-canon. Traveler is canon, as far as we know, and it is even referenced in-game.
peak fern
I think the reason why Hakkar didn't appear is because there was already a blood god, G'huun
cyan prairie
We could meet Grom there too
sullen dawn
Or if not that far back..at least uther, cairne etc..
I'd imagine hakkar would be punishing blood trolls for worshiping ghuun
cyan prairie
Hakkar would need to fight against Mueh'zala i think
unborn glacier
The only bit of Traveler referenced in game is him telling a child with a Diamond Sword, that if the Child doesn't defeat him when the time comes, he was feast on all of Azeroth. Beyond that one moment, nothing else from Traveler has made it in game.
novel zodiac
I really hope they get rid of the followers/mission table in the next expansion
distant folio
I have no idea where this weird idea that the Traveler books are not canon comes from, I had literally never heard that theory before, but there is nothing stating they are non-canon. Until Blizzard says they are not canon (which they have no reason to do), they are perfectly canon.
cyan prairie
since all the Blood Trolls had their souls go to Bwonsamdi
who most probably is working for Hakkar
yyh Mueh'zala*
jade basalt
@unborn glacier That is wrong, again. There's also this:
The book established that "Flllurlokkr" is the Nerglish word for fisherman. Flllurlokkr was later added in Legion, becoming the first in-game reference of the book.
unborn glacier
I view Traveler in the same way as the Modan comics. Major events in those comics ended up becoming canonized events referenced in game whilst the majority of the comics themselves being decalred non-canon.
distant folio
@unborn glacier Lol great argument. "Aside from the times that Traveler is referenced in-game, there is no reference of Traveler in-game!"
sullen dawn
Are we back to this?
tropic trail
Golden had to bag the Team to make Calia what she is now. She wasn't even planned for before the storm. This was tweeted even by herself to Taliesin @dense plover
dense plover
non of the medan comics were declared canon
cyan prairie
It's time to stop...
distant folio
the comics are still like 80% canon
jade basalt
Technically The Comic is still canon. The only thing that was declared non-canon is Med'an becoming Guardian.
So the story still unfolded, just slightly differently.
unborn glacier
^
distant folio
Basically just the last comic or two, out of 25? and even then, not much changes
sullen dawn
Maybe new expansion is called 'Rise of Me'dan'
unborn glacier
xD
peak fern
is Med'an even canon at this point? xD
unborn glacier
No
jade basalt
He is canon.
unborn glacier
How?
jade basalt
But him being the Guardian is not canon.
forest sphinx
You guys need to stop. I do not want to see you in trouble.
sullen dawn
They fired him out of gallywixes cannon yeh
distant folio
@tropic trail
Golden had to bag the Team to make Calia what she is now. She wasn't even planned for before the storm. This was tweeted even by herself to Taliesin
Wait do you have a source for this?
Med'an is still canon, TECHNICALLY. but he is conveniently "forgotten", kind of like Medivh was for...10 years?
tropic trail
Check her Twitter
distant folio
Her twitter has thousands of tweets
tropic trail
It's a conversation with Taliesin
sullen dawn
Medivh will probably return I'd say
distant folio
Do you have a date or something?
tropic trail
I can't do it right. Now
unborn glacier
Med'an is the Son of Medivh and Garona in the comics. How the hell is he canon? Blizz even referenced his new non-existence in Chronicles by putting him on pages 404 and then intentionally not putting a page 404 in the book.
sullen dawn
In like 3 expansions from now
jade basalt
Med'an is the Son of Medivh and Garona in the comics. How the hell is he canon?
Nothing contradicts him being the son of Medivh and Garona, so that's how.
dense plover
he can still technically exist
we just have no evidence
if he does ever return, there will probably be a book
IF
but there are no currently canon mentions of his existence anymore
jade basalt
They did mark him as 404, but technically this only means he is missing from Chronicle, not that he is retconned. And Chronicle was missing a lot of things as well. I mean they probably do want to retcon him out of existence, but so far, they haven't done it.
unborn glacier
Med'an is defintely a character Blizz would like to forget; this is, again, furthered by the fact that intentionally did not include him in Chronicles.
jade basalt
Yeah, I have not said the opposite.
distant folio
Ranger you really need to improve your reading comprehension
Everyone agrees that Blizz probably wants to forget about Med'an
But so far he is still technically canon, he is mentioned in interviews and short stories and comics. They may or may not decide to retcon him one day.
cyan prairie
We need to find the difference between characters being canon and their actions being canon
Many things in warcraft movie weren't canon, but the there characters still were
It was easier tho, since these characters appeared in game
sullen dawn
unborn glacier
XD
jade basalt
Well the movie is not a great example, but yes you are correct. A character can remain canon while their actions can be retconned.
For instance Suramar is still canon, but what happened to it during the War of the Ancients was retconned.
Med'an is still canon, but some of what he did in the comics (becoming the Guardian) is retconned.
unborn glacier
Didn't Blizz say the movie is it's own universe?
dense plover
yes
cyan prairie
We get a story where we see Anduin at his old age, when he can pretty much die at any moment for any reason
jade basalt
In the sense that it is separate from WoW canon, yes.
dense plover
the wow comic with old anduin is canon
its why the going theory is he has plot armor
ofc that all couldve been a vision from the light
cyan prairie
Nah, there are arguments over it too
unborn glacier
Those characters actions are canon to the movie AU, just not to the main universe.
dense plover
in which case its one of thousands of outcomes
and thats just the one the light showed
cyan prairie
The comic is already called non-canon by people
distant folio
Don't listen to people
Listen to Blizzard. And if Blizzard haven't said anything, then there's nothing to debate.
cyan prairie
If they don't say it's canon then we can't say if it is or if it isn't
jade basalt
It is canon by default.
distant folio
It is canon, unless they specifically state that it is not canon.
unborn glacier
We are always free to speculate and hypothesize, no matter what, until the hand of God that is Blizz says otherwise.
jade basalt
Otherwise they would have to put out a PR statement saying "it's canon!" for every single thing they produce, every single quest, comic, novel or cinematic, which would be silly. Metzen literally said something along those lines many years ago. That's why everything is canon, except if they specifically say it's not.
Like they did with the RPG books.
distant folio
^^^^^
cyan prairie
That's what i'm trying to tell - if Blizz doesn't directly say it's non canon, it can still be canon
sullen dawn
Exactly
cyan prairie
(I know that trying to say that such small details are something relevent is kinda dumb, but the Zul'farrak NPCs are called Soul-Eaters, and their Loa is Mueh'zala(Just a tiny detail i'd like to mention)).
distant folio
that's neat actually!
Apparently there's yet another leak http://i.imgur.com/VQpykNr.jpg
(thanks to marlamin for the pic)
lone marten
distant folio
white quartz
The one with the most credibility by far is the Bolvar one. That and the Twilight of the Aspects one but that one is mainly due to the fact it still fits with everything thats happened in BFA as of now at least to my knowledge.
distant folio
the Aspects one's logo looks a lot like this Shadowlands logo lol
white quartz
Oh its certainly possible the Bolvar one is fake. However. It is the one that looks the most real and the image of Bolvar at the very least seems VERY real. The shop stuff could have been BS but the actual image could be the real deal but as we have all said a thousand times. Gotta wait for Friday 🙂
tropic trail
this one?
white quartz
That one I donno about. I think it cooould be real but the same goes for the Shadowlands title as well
Either could easily be a thing
sullen dawn
That new shadowlands logo is so nice
With the souls energy in it and skeletonal heads on the sides
modest temple
the image with the shadowlands one looks like some old art for fantasy books
brothers hildebrandt stuff
dark furnace
It doesn't look like what you'd expect the Shadowlands to look like
sullen dawn
Could be xiros
dark furnace
It looks Suramar-ish
sullen dawn
I'd imagine they wouldn't want all of shadowlands to be gloomy
That greek/Persian style fantasy suits a land of death too imo
modest temple
well i cropped out the title and searched with the image, got nothing. so it might be entirely new. idk
dark furnace
The old leak said that the greek style would be a thing, so it is either piggybacking off that one or the old one is true
sullen dawn
Different logo but that doesn't mean much as months have passed
This new one looks more distinct
dark furnace
But in the older leak there was no place called Bastion
cyan prairie
I'd love to see more Suramar-ish stuff in game
sullen dawn
Bastion could be city in xiros
cyan prairie
one of the two best cities in game
dark furnace
Or is that the continent?
sullen dawn
Perhaps
dark furnace
Couls be the city
cyan prairie
It could be our "base" there
dark furnace
But it says 'land' of Bastion though
cyan prairie
like Newhome in Nazjatar
sullen dawn
Yes but they could have named the continent Bastion to signify its importance
sullen dawn
Maybe rest of shadowland is consumed by hungering darkness
dark furnace
And part of the storyline is cleansing the different zones, opening up new content
modest temple
blizz has basically been using d&d races and monsters for the last while. nobel kyrian race in ghost world?
sullen dawn
Kyrian is a Greek word for 'lord'
Noble lords of death?
Something like this maybe?
Or more like this..
strange falcon
🤔
cyan prairie
Tbh the BfA campaigns went kinda good
i mean
Zandalar > Kul'tiras
but whole idea
went pretty good
sullen dawn
cyan prairie
so we could get it again
With Horde going to Shadowlands because of Vol'jin coming back from there, Sylvanas doing Sylvanas things etc.
and alliance could go to Dragon Isles with Wrathion because... idk whatever
they can make 2 campaigns like they did in BfA, and i think i'd be fine with that
colorwise this guy fits the city as well
dark furnace
In the map leak, that was different from the cinematic leak, there was a place called the Sylverian Glade
cyan prairie
but i think the shop mount may be right to get compared there
This guy appeared in WoD
And in Legion we got Suramar
with more of them
white quartz
Honestly I think that no matter what happens with 9.0 we will hopefully all be happy.It just feels like we are leading towards something really really big happening soon.
lime venture
Sylverian Dreamer
dark furnace
Sylverian Approach, which might be the city
dark furnace
But, in the middle of the map leak is Nyalotha (transit)
modest temple
im supposed to get food... but i love me some crazy theories
sullen dawn
Apparently just an entry point fiskian
dark furnace
I was just about to write that
The map could, even though its extremely unlikely, be real
It hasnr been deconfirmed yet
modest temple
which one?
dark furnace
Shadowlands map
cyan prairie
This picture would fit the description of shadowlands we got before
sullen dawn
The original shadowlands leak from july
cyan prairie
that it isn't as dark as most people would think
sullen dawn
Yes it could be xiros mauldrak
dark furnace
From July
white quartz
For the Nyalotha part it would kinda make sense if they just say that the raid is only a small part of Nyalotha
sullen dawn
They said xiros was calm and is where our city would be
modest temple
but why go back if we are moving to focus on another big bad
dark furnace
He kills us and we end up there perhaps
modest temple
nzoth?
sullen dawn
Maybe something happens in 8.3 cinematic
white quartz
That or it happens in 8.3.5
sullen dawn
He breaks the veil or something before we defeat him
dark furnace
Nevermind, the broadcast text
sullen dawn
Yeh
dark furnace
Thats what I meant
sullen dawn
Either way
dark furnace
Could be
white quartz
That could be the case as well for sure considering we dont even know what has given her the power she currently wields
modest temple
i dont think we will see nyalotha again. it exists as a potential nzoth wanted to create/recreated. he is just powerful enough to impose his will and make it interactable
for it to be a raid zone feels like this is all they have for it and its all we get
white quartz
Well the thing is this is the first time an Old God has been completely freed. Even if he does "lose" I can almost guarantee he wins by the end
white quartz
While I do think D4 and OW2 will make an appearance those "leaks" You just posted Toby look SOOOO low effort
modest temple
well... can we find that image of "lilith"?
dark furnace
I think it might actually be real
craggy nexus
The biggest leak is that Deathwing is in Heroes of the Storm which means that Deathwing is going to still be alive in WoW. 😆
dark furnace
Cataclysm 2
white quartz
The Lilith one Im not really sure of. Is it in the new Diablo art book? Did they forget to remove those pages sent to sites like WoW until Blizzcon is over.... Like if thats real its very confusing how they missed that
craggy nexus
People tried to say Jaina was a dread lord because she got a dread lord skin in HotS.
modest temple
deathwing is because of the associated 15 years event
dark furnace
He was also the most requested character
craggy nexus
Yeah, I wasn't serious. Thus the laughing at the end.
dark furnace
@sullen dawn Can you send where you found the leak?
deep pawn
I'm 70% on board with it being shadowlands
tropic trail
im cool with Shadowlands as long as Tinkers arent a class lol
deep pawn
Black and White shadowlands sounds like the subversion blizzard would go
white quartz
Yes please. That Lilian one could be from the new artbook and have been forgotten to be taken out of the book at least until after Blizzcon.
Id love Shadowlands or Twilight of the Aspects to be real... so much
deep pawn
But every shadowlands leak mentioned tinkers
modest temple
looking through the monstermanual for lols to follow a thought i mentioned earlier. Calia looks like a Deva but wingless.
tropic trail
i dont think every leak mentioned it Kyle
modest temple
why would we have tinkers if we are going to ghost world?!
deep pawn
Ghostbusters
sullen dawn
Yeh Ghostbusters and transdimensional technology
craggy nexus
I am 100% all aboard if they go for a Black Empire returns expansion.
tropic trail
lol
deep pawn
I'm gonna laugh if it turns out val'kyr are just fake kyrians
tropic trail
i just want Dragon Isles lol
sullen dawn
Og map leak said ethereals played a role in xiros
deep pawn
Maybe dragon isles will be a patch zone
dark furnace
It would be a more psychotic Outland as well
deep pawn
Sylverian dreamer still seems to indicate dragon involvement
sullen dawn
Well one zone was said to be more psychedelic outland, not the whole continent t
The riftlands
tropic trail
dark furnace
Didn't the map leak include text aswell?
white quartz
I still honestly think that map can be real even with Nyalotha being a raid
tropic trail
thats the map from July
deep pawn
I think that map is wrong
white quartz
And yes but the text with the map was BS
sullen dawn
Yeh mostly because if word transit
modest temple
what is there a blocked out part
sullen dawn
*of
modest temple
why
deep pawn
Unless the ruins of nyalotha are the passage to the shadowlands
white quartz
Supposedly is blocked out due to it having the group number on it
sullen dawn
Or nzoth/sylvanas tears the veil at nyalotha
dark furnace
The veil vanes, his crown will open the way
Could it mean the Eye of Nzoth?
That the players weat
sullen dawn
Xiros description spot on aligns with the new pic
tropic trail
oh yeah
white quartz
All I know is there is so much potential for these next two expacs to be amazing. Just so many cool things in play and I’m sure a lot of it will bring people back to the game if they left. Then again. Won’t know until Friday
peak fern
Ethereals in there? 🤔
amber beacon
this apparently got leaked earlier too
signal bone
Given the past trends, this expac should hopefully be another MoP / Legion
peak fern
it all sounds pretty interesting, but man, I wouldn't be surprised if we get something completely different lol
modest temple
eh. anytime i see Hakkar mentioned i roll my eyes
sullen dawn
Btw the blue eyes make more sense now
signal bone
I kind of agree Ola
dark furnace
Imagine Bolvar doing a Thanos "Fine I'll do it myself"
signal bone
but unlikely given Sylvanas is on the key art
sullen dawn
Blue and orange
signal bone
other wise I would think they would only hint at her activity after a time skip for the next expac
white quartz
@dark furnace If that happens it would be awesome
peak fern
fair enough
sullen dawn
New picture... blue and orange (ghosts and sa d)
amber beacon
Sylvanas is the key art so as not to give anything away tbh
She was also the key art the year BFA got announced
Or It was illidan
dark furnace
Wasn't that Jaina?
amber beacon
Might have been yeah
I know onw was jaina one was sylvanas
2016 was sylvanas I just checked my poster
2017 was jaina
Saurgang was last year
dark furnace
2018 Saurfang
peak fern
yeah
amber beacon
Chances are they're using sylvanas to not give anything away that we don't already know.
signal bone
doubtful
amber beacon
Since she went full fuck you all 3 weeks ago
signal bone
key art characters have always been heavily focused on in upcoming patches / expansions
signal bone
see Illidan, Jaina, Ashzara, Saurfang
white quartz
Well why would they put the Lich King on the key art. That would give everything away for his big return
deep pawn
Sylvanas could be the Guldan
amber beacon
Tracer deffo makes sense as the OW2 poster girl
deep pawn
Cinematic supposedly opens with Mei in danfert and saved by genji
white quartz
Sylvanas could easily be a big part of the next expac for sure and likely will be. But it wouldn’t make any sense to put the Lich on the key set. Especially if they want to surprise people. And Tracer is the poster girl of OW. I’d be pissed if she isn’t in OW2
dark furnace
Bolvar is a big reveal, evwryone already knows that Sylvanas will play a part
signal bone
I mean, Sylvanas is basically the main character of WoW
white quartz
@sullen dawn If that happened I would legit flip out
jade basalt
Currently.
amber beacon
To be honest I love sylvanas on account of Patty Madson does such a fucking phenomenal job at voice acting her.
signal bone
she has had the most attention of any character in the series at this point
deep pawn
I'll note the one leak that hints at Calia and Jaina searching for arthas's spirit
signal bone
more than Thrall and even Arthas / Illidan at this point
at least in WoW, maybe not warcraft as a whole
amber beacon
But with WC3 releasing this year it's pretty much guranteed the lich king will be alive some how whether bolvar or arthas
peak fern
yeah, considering Sylvanas was everywhere during BfA not having her in the next expansion wouldn't make sense, especially after all that death setup
amber beacon
Sylv's been set up since Legion for this. I wanna see Helya come back.
sullen dawn
I wonder if sylvanas looks like a normal elf in shadowlands
amber beacon
There's something going on between helya, azshara and sylvanas
signal bone
harem
sullen dawn
They mentioned helya looks kinder and prettier so maybe in shadowlands you appear as your true self
amber beacon
I also hope azshara survives 8.3
signal bone
honestly, give me more helya / odyn stuff
sullen dawn
Would be cool to see blonde sylvanas in game
sullen dawn
Oh if shadowlands odyn will defo play a patt
signal bone
I thought when they said they were doing away with class sets we were gonna get ToV - tier gear
amber beacon
If we get our true selves in Shadowlands does this mean Nightborne finally get more faces than pissed off, pissed off and mega pissed off 😂
sullen dawn
Well prolly find out he dicked over helya
uncut vault
The Sylvanas key art has her with small model changes, and a new weapon, they wouldn’t put those details in if she weren’t making a major appearance at Blizzcon
amber beacon
I wanna see bolvar vs sylvanas ngl
signal bone
isn't the weapon the dagger from the cinematic?
amber beacon
that would be epic
sullen dawn
I love odyn but hes an ass
uncut vault
Yes, she still has one of them
amber beacon
ALSO MORE ZAPPI BOI
uncut vault
No thanks
white quartz
@amber beacon Imagine what the crowd would be like if it opens up with Sylvanas fighting Bolvar. Oh my
amber beacon
I'd probably need new pants on more than one occasion 😂
sullen dawn
I hope we stumble upon saurfang and saurfang junior hanging out
amber beacon
Saurfang still makes me sad 😦
white quartz
Saurfang and his son just having tea time
signal bone
I would like a more subdued cinematic this time
mighty wolf
Whats the reason of Sylvanas vs Bolvar? 🤔
sullen dawn
Exactly
sullen dawn
Just relaxing under the sylverian sun
amber beacon
Maybe vol'jin will pop up in the cinematic (One can truely hope)
modest temple
eh. i dont want to see ghosts of ppl that are dead. i want new characters to want to care about. not banking on our feelings about old dead ones, like they did in wod
signal bone
seeing as we seem to be getting more cinematics in general these days, it's only a matter of time before Bolvar gets into one
white quartz
It would be pretty cool if the next cinematic mimicked the original Wrath cinematic to a degree. Still my fav cinematic to date
signal bone
seeing he is being built up to be a major character at some point
amber beacon
Well we had a lot of arthas references in Anduin throughout BFA
sullen dawn
Man if its shadowlands they will milk the hell out of the spirits thing
uncut vault
Sylvanas will either be the voice over for the feature reveal, with a new model reveal at the end like Jaina, or be the major character in the cinematic. One of the two is essentially guaranteed
sullen dawn
Old characters will be EVERYWHERE
amber beacon
Anduin storming into the throne room was a shot for shot of the WC3 cinematic
Anduin climbing the tower in the saurfang cinematic in swamp of sorrows was a replica of his ascension to the frozen throne
signal bone
maybe they're gearing him up to destroy the helm of domination and the scourge for good
mighty wolf
Will we meet Khadgar in 9.x? 
amber beacon
We know Bolvar's up to something if we're getting allied race dks
sullen dawn
Prolly not
peak fern
nah he's too busy doing nothing
amber beacon
with the exception of pandaren there's no way in hell any of the other dks could have been risen until whatevers coming
oh and dark iron and maybe Kul tiran
tropic trail
World of Warcraft: Dadghar's Return
amber beacon
If it's not a faction war kadghar will return ❤
Kadghar wouldn't choose between horde and alliance
sullen dawn
Cos he loves us both equally
amber beacon
I want more flynn fairwind. Period.
signal bone
eh
sullen dawn
Good old dadghar
mighty wolf
World of Khadgar 
signal bone
he's such a boring character
peak fern
a faction war begins
Khadgar: ight imma head out
sullen dawn
Hes just our collective dad
amber beacon
There's a lot of talk about ravens from Ilgynoth
modest temple
the dks races are all people that were involved with the 4th war
amber beacon
so maybe dadgar is back
signal bone
I still think we're going to get a class from out of left-field
not necros or tinkers
amber beacon
BARDS PLS
sullen dawn
He went out for cigarettes at end of legion and never came back
signal bone
they still need another class that uses guns / bows
signal bone
that wouldn't be tinkers
sullen dawn
Tinkere could be mail
signal bone
possibly dark rangers, but I doubt they would be called dark rangers
modest temple
just make what we have stronger and remove the weapon ability restrictions.
amber beacon
I wonder if they'll have found a way to level squish
signal bone
i honestly could care less about the squich
squish*
it doesn't actually do anything to the game
other than possibly ease mental barriers from new characters
but that's easily alleviated by boosts
when you buy the expac
it's probably inevitable, but I don't see why it's anything to get excited for
amber beacon
130 levels is insane. The real pain in the ass sets in about 60-80 for most people who just go cba
dense plover
its the same amount of xp
signal bone
I mean, it's all in your head
signal bone
it's exactly the same as it currently is with a different number
dense plover
^
signal bone
plus, who actually cares that we're 120 or 60?
amber beacon
You'd actually adjsut the Xp to be more in line based on the curve it's not a simple squish the main number
dense plover
also 60-80 isnt as bad anymore
signal bone
especially with boosts
sullen dawn
Imo level squish/world revamp are 10.0 if shadowlands is next
signal bone
at this point, everyone should have at least 5 alts at high levels
world revamp sounds like a WoW X feature
aka 10.0
sullen dawn
Ye
novel zodiac
what about WoW 2?
dense plover
not gonna happen
amber beacon
They said they won't revamp the world anymore. Not with the ability to shard based on level
sullen dawn
I always thought 9.0 felt one expansion too soon
signal bone
what if I told you we're already playing wow 2
amber beacon
So what happened to undercity is the way things will be moving forward
dense plover
pretty much
signal bone
11.0 other side of azeroth
mighty wolf
Omegalul
signal bone
or yeah, karesh
zealous basalt
What are we talking about
signal bone
lvl squish / world revamp
and why it's not happening
and also why it's not that big of a deal in the first place
imo
zealous basalt
I will tell you why is it a big deal
sullen dawn
It is long term
zealous basalt
Because after level 100
sullen dawn
Just not right this second
signal bone
maybe not world revamp, but if world revamp = just world quests in every zone, count me out
zealous basalt
There is no rewards for leveling
signal bone
how does a squish help that
zealous basalt
Besides reaching the cap
amber beacon
It's huge long term. if they do the next 5 expansions they have planned then level 150-160 no body is gonna want that.
signal bone
wow is a max level game, caring about what you get when you level is such a transient issue
zealous basalt
Have you leveled lately?
novel zodiac
why would they make that poll about the lvl squish then?
signal bone
yes, I have every class at max
zealous basalt
But like
sullen dawn
Yeh and also zones in 13.0 are gonna look fucking amazing compared to old stuff
zealous basalt
Did you actually leveled in BfA so far?
signal bone
because they will likely do it, but I don't see why it's an expansion worthy feature
sullen dawn
Being in azeroth will feel like a broken game
amber beacon
Point being most classes don't also get AOE until 63 for example. Like wtf is up with that?
zealous basalt
MoP
zealous basalt
Where the talents were every 15 levels and it feels rewarding because how the spells were sorted
the problem atm is
that most of the classes
amber beacon
the only class that gets talens post 100 is dhs.
signal bone
plus, most people can skip leveling with the boosts you get from an expac now
zealous basalt
or at least half have issues when coming to how you sort every attack
Like
Let me say something here
novel zodiac
that's a bad excuse
signal bone
the thing that sucked about bfa leveling was the shit scaling as you got higher
modest temple
it would be nice to only lvl my allied race to 60 or something then 110 for the armor. its just boring.
signal bone
but that has nothing to do with talents
novel zodiac
if they sell a ilvl boost in the next expansion it would be an excuse to make shitty raids?
zealous basalt
It's the bset thing to come to leveling
amber beacon
Benthic gear was a mistake.
zealous basalt
AHEM can i speak
novel zodiac
why would you want good raids when you can buy a boost?
dude, you can write long sentences, don't push ENTER every 3 words
modest temple
like, who even does wod anymore. you just stick all that bonus xp then run around doing 1 or 2 zones event areas and you blow past it in 3 hours
amber beacon
there's like 3 conversations going on we're not going to stop for you
signal bone
all I'm saying is, a squish is an band-aid on a transient issue that barely affects most players
deep pawn
I'm sold on a black and white shadowlands leading into a light vs void expansion
amber beacon
A level squish will also be a lot more appealing to returning players regardless of the boost or not. It'll also attract new players who want to experience the game but 120 levels feels too much of a grind.
signal bone
squish won't automatically make leveling better
it's a start probably, but there's much bigger problems to confront
novel zodiac
to make leveling better they need to brinb back the old talent tree
deep pawn
No
novel zodiac
and not give talent ponts every 15 LEVELS
signal bone
no they don't
amber beacon
The new party feature is good for levelling tbh
novel zodiac
nobody levels in party
signal bone
the current talent system is fine, we should just have more
amber beacon
Me and my friends do?
deep pawn
Old talent tree was shit. I say that as someone who levelled to 60 just last month
amber beacon
so argument invalid
zealous basalt
You see, back in where I started. MoP. that expac had a very cute thing when you leveled because it felt that the attacks they gave every x levels was really worthy, it felt like a progression because you know, when you first play the game what you should do is leveling normally, and even if the talents at every 15 levels isn't that good for someone, for me its good. Buuuut, some talents are really boring, that's the problem with the talents atm
novel zodiac
friends?, what is that
zealous basalt
Some talents should be in another rows, and some talents should be baseline
amber beacon
this really great feature called guilds 😄
white quartz
Lots of people disagree about the talent system. There are a decent number of people who would come back if the tree gets changed at leads somewhat
signal bone
but that's not a problem with levels
zealous basalt
But the problem with the leveling now is the pacing at the first levels, the game literally tells you "boost"
amber beacon
I'd like a talent system that's like the artifact constellations tbh
amber beacon
the legion system btw not the bullshit that is bfa
zealous basalt
and even so it doesn't feel rewarding at all
signal bone
I could see them doing a level squish / world revamp that issues in a new currency like AP you can use on a leveling character for a tree that gives you little utility
white quartz
Brb
zealous basalt
The thing with a level squish is
amber beacon
World revamp isn't going to happen
zealous basalt
that you won't feel that...dead after a certain number of levels
signal bone
probably not, but if it did
amber beacon
At most you're going to get new changes to the world once you reach that part in the story
zealous basalt
Because I tell you this now, after BfA azerite armor will be useless
signal bone
right, it's mental
amber beacon
it's using the layering technology to do it.
signal bone
again, I have no problem with a squish. I just don't see why people want it to be a selling point of an expac
it could come in a .5 patch
amber beacon
I want tier sets back.
Maybe not the bonuses
but at least the fucking class specific designs
zealous basalt
The word you ask is
Class armor
And yeah, I agree, I didn't get any raid gear because they are ugly for my monk
amber beacon
I've yet to see a tier in bfa that looked good.
signal bone
people want things like a squish over other things that would be more impactful, like housing or something
zealous basalt
But there is something i admit
signal bone
BoD gear was alright
signal bone
garrisons weren't player housing
zealous basalt
They were
signal bone
no they weren't
novel zodiac
the only good set in BoD was plate
zealous basalt
It was literally a house
zealous basalt
Your own personal thing where you could set up your own stuff there
signal bone
anybody who says garrisons = housing is being dishonest
amber beacon
If we were going to have player housing I'd say guild housing.
signal bone
they know what people mean when they say player housing, and it's not garrisons
zealous basalt
Tell me what a house for you is
novel zodiac
Housing its a bad idea, guild halls are way better
zealous basalt
Ye
signal bone
something you can customize, build from scratch, has personality and is an extension of your creativity
amber beacon
Yeah guild halls would be nice even on RP realms.
signal bone
guild halls would be fine too
novel zodiac
like garrison?
signal bone
again, you are being dishonest
zealous basalt
It had the personality of you being a commander
signal bone
nobody thinks that garrisons allowed for creativity or player expression
zealous basalt
And no garrison was the same
signal bone
no they weren't
amber beacon
I dunno I know many who turned their garrison into erp forts 😂
signal bone
well it's a poor implementation then
zealous basalt
Which is the only reason of why house exists
zealous basalt
Thing is you don't talk for everyone
signal bone
or wildstar
zealous basalt
No one speaks for everyone
signal bone
many people want housing
zealous basalt
No
lean yew
i cannot keep track of all these leaks
amber beacon
Most people after garrisons went no to player housing yes to guild halls.
novel zodiac
if housing is so good why wildstar failed that hard? :v
zealous basalt
Many people want a place where they can afk in peace
signal bone
or something like warframe, like your ship
zealous basalt
...And kill open world?
novel zodiac
you can build your ship from scratch in warframe?
signal bone
it would be cool if wow had something like that
amber beacon
I want Suramar to have a mob free zone so we can actually use the city. But that'll never happen
signal bone
no, but you can personalize it
novel zodiac
like garrisons?
zealous basalt
If you are a elf
signal bone
you can't personlize garrisons...
zealous basalt
You could
signal bone
no you couldn't
novel zodiac
yeah, you do it accord to your needs
amber beacon
Yeah the nighthold courtyard. But like the actual suramar city post legion would be nice ;-;
novel zodiac
you're an alchemist?
signal bone
there were like max 13 buildings
novel zodiac
build an alchemy lab
zealous basalt
I liked the color thematic
signal bone
and even if garrisons ARE player housing (which I disagree with), then housing should still be in the game and garrisons can be a lesson as to not how do to PH
ok but you can't change it
signal bone
at the end of the day, wow needs more activities that don't involve combat
that allow for player creativity and expression
zealous basalt
Fishing?
zealous basalt
I am not
There are
Many things you can do that isn't fight
there is this command
called /e
signal bone
the game needs more things that feel like a lived in world
zealous basalt
That's...literally how you burst your imaginatnion
signal bone
housing satisfies a large gap that could fill
and it can be super cool if done right
signal bone
there is a large section of people who only play games like NMS and Subnautica for base building
signal bone
garrisons were shit housing, yet you think they are the end all be all
signal bone
if blizz made an entire expansion where the only new feature was hosuing, it would be grea
signal bone
everything else is on rails at this point
signal bone
dungeons, raids, new zones, wq, etc.
novel zodiac
9.0 build your own house the expansion
amber beacon
All WoW needs is a guild hall which is an instanced building in the captial city. that's it.
signal bone
sure you can
zealous basalt
Garrison was their best shot as housing
signal bone
wow is a much different game than it was at its inception
tranquil steeple
World of Warcraft: Sims
novel zodiac
why would you want quests and raids when you can build your house and stay there
zealous basalt
Do you want
novel zodiac
go play sims then
tropic trail
@signal bone go play eq2.
zealous basalt
WoW is not made for housing
tropic trail
Pretty solid player housing there.
zealous basalt
Not at that extreme
signal bone
ok well, enjoy your new AP grind every expansion and only doing raids / dungeons until the end of time
novel zodiac
so if i think housing is stupid i automatically love ap grinds?
signal bone
I know it wouldn't be build anywhere
novel zodiac
what a remtard
signal bone
but they could create tech on a new continent
zealous basalt
@signal bone if you can't do something else than that
tranquil steeple
if we're going to get housing, it's going to be an ADDITION to the game
signal bone
or add it to old zones
tranquil steeple
not the whole point
zealous basalt
DUDE
tranquil steeple
not when it comes to WoW
zealous basalt
Even if they can make it look better
signal bone
apparently
zealous basalt
BECAUSE THAT'S AS FAR THEY COULD PUSH IT