Makes sense. Localization, setting up BlizzCon, etc
#beta-ptr-spoilers
distant folio
jade basalt
Also the person who leaked Legion is now leaking the next expansion, supposedly. You can go through his post history here: https://www.mmo-champion.com/search.php?searchid=63079990
distant folio
Oh yeah that guy. If it's true that it's Dragon Isles, then I'm pretty hyped.
Only thing that makes me doubt him though is that he says "Wrathion totally gets rekt" but we just saw that he doesn't in fact get rekt.
jade basalt
Yeah that's what I said elsewhere. But maybe he does get rekt in the next expansion.. Double plot twist.
sullen dawn
so disappointed if dragon isles đŚ
dense plover
i wouldnt be disappointed
tbf, we have no actual concept of the scale since the only canon we have is "they exist and theres a big squid temple"
sullen dawn
im sure its huge
5 zones (one for each flight) prolly
i just hate the dragon theme with a passion (especially as A plot)
if its 1 zone and we get other stuff id be interested to visit it
dense plover
its isles plural, so it is occurs, I doubt it would be a zone if its not patch content
sullen dawn
yeh thats what im afraid of
dense plover
we still havent gotten them, so its definitely an expac possibility
sullen dawn
đŚ
sullen dawn
just none of my characters are dragon related
i find it very hard to get immersed in that kind of lore
dense plover
the whole thing about nzoth being a 'avatar' of the void lords just isnt true lorewise
sullen dawn
tbh he doesnt seem that lore versed
so prolly just speaking as he perceives it, wouldnt make the leak any more true or false i think
he did leak legion after all
distant folio
It's not avatar in a literal sense, just metaphorical, like Sylvanas being the avatar of Death and Tyrande the avatar of Elune
i.e N'Zoth represents the Void, Sylvanas represents Death, and Tyrande represents Elune/the Light
but Elune being the Light sits wrong with me
dense plover
yeah that doesnt quite fit tbh
elune also allows for the night warrior
and the moon
it doesnt fit with the whole light theme exactly
austere gazelle
Blizzard is not at its first retcon or inconsistency
If they want elune to be a light lord despite a lots of things in game and in the lore saying she's more than that, they can do it. Like Nzoth being under Nazjatar while a lot of material says otherwise before 8.2
dense plover
no material said otherwise
there was NEVER a specific location
and nazjatar has moved since the OG kalimdor map
remember, the shattering
austere gazelle
there is one in the chronicles map... but we won't go on that topic again. That was not the only thing the messed up with, but it's fine, we'll see where they go with it, can't wait đ
tropic trail
that "leaker" just said there wont be light forged undeads or san layn as an AR. Or maybe he said there wont be ARs at all? not sure
tropic trail
I can still see it in the thread
dark furnace
I get Sorry - no matches
tropic trail
yea because you cant link it . that never works - at least for me
you have to click by yourself on his acc
dark furnace
Ok
languid yoke
tbf anyone who seriously believes san'layn could be horde AR has not played bfa
dense plover
^
tropic trail
Nice, he literally said there will be new ARs , but lightforged and Nelfs undeads are not gonna be one of them. Why nice? Because latest at blizzcon we will know if he just talks shit
because I seriously believe undead nelfs will be a thing
languid yoke
X doubt
sullen dawn
"there's gonna be more Allied Races. Trust in that fact. Lightforged Undead? No. Undead NE's? No. Gnome Druids? I want it to happen but no."
also...
"And to the Sylvanas treehuggers I'll spell it out for you:
Illidan wanted Sargeras's power because Illidan felt jaded by the NE's. But, he secretly compartmentalized his true intentions from Sargeras in that he was working to defeat the Legion and Sargeras. It wasn't too altruistic but it was for the greater good.
Sylvanas and her actions are not altruistic. Only for her. Her lapdog Nathanos is only a tool she has. When that tool is no longer useful, she'll discard him. Her plans in comparison to Illidan's are not subterfuge to Billy Badass and be doing this to defeat the Old Gods, the Void Lords, etc. Bitch only wants power over Death and to answer to no one. HOW she plans to do that and remain relevant in the storyline just isn't altruistic for us "mortals". She is undeath. She wants Death's power but still remain among the living world. Her story's climax has come (no pun intended you dirty pervs but I like how you think) and gone. She's at her end game. Saurfang outed her end game plan, sorta.
Her diligent followers (the players) that met her at Windrunner Tower heard vague hints on her plans. Make no mistake, she used Azshara to get to N'zoth. She is not using Old God powers. She's using Death's powers. Death itself cannot manifest into the physical world. Much like Sargeras. So she is Death's Avatar, with Death's powers.
And no that doesn't mean she's in cahoots with Bolvar. Ner'zul and Arthas are still in the Helm along with Bolvar. Arthas absolutely hates Sylvanas, and thus so does Bolvar.
Hope that clears up Sylvanas for you haters. :P"
tropic trail
the Nathanos part makes me not believe it
Sylvanas sacrificed one of her Valkyrs just for Nathanos, and now she dont gives a shit about him? Not sure about that
sullen dawn
i hope hes lying
simply because i dont want dragon isles as main continent
but hes the only person with a history of correct leaks coming forward
tropic trail
he has exactly 1 leak he confirmed, and that was some days before blizzcon
this time hes "leaking" 2 weeks before Blizzcon
and I m pretty sure Dragon Isles will be a thing next xpac, dont matter if hes actually really leaking or not
sullen dawn
im not saying i believe him
just that he has the most credibility out of everyone
and i dont mind it being a thing, just dont want it to be the 9.0 main continent
hasty elbow
well what do you guys have in mind about main continent apart from the Dragon Isle?
uncut vault
Yeah that Nathanos part basically invalidates it all, him and her family are the few things that she genuinely puts at the same level as her survival, and Nathanos is already with her in undeath. She has literally no reason to discard him, both through already having saved him, and genuinely loving him.
sullen dawn
revamped lorderon, revamed northrend, shadowlands or full revamp
any of those
or mix of
i wouldnt mind dragon isles comboed with revamped northrend, or comboed with revamped lorderon/quel'thalas
just god help us if it's dragon isles only, 5 zones, one for each flight
hasty elbow
imo Dragon Isle has a high chance to be a new continent since we have a very few info about that place. but I agreed with you about revamp Lordaeron/Quel'Thalas.
very few info = they can do anything they want imo
from a small isles as a patch contents or...
a new continent...
or retcon it like Broken Isles
sullen dawn
not really a retcon since we know nothing
i just want death to be the major theme, not the dragons
cool with dragons as B plot
tropic trail
also that guy said Nerzhul and Arthas are still inbn the Helm of Domination?
sullen dawn
ye
tropic trail
Wasnt that proved to be wrong in many sources now?
that there were only echos of them
like Arthas soul isnt in the helm of domation, his soul is where Sylvanas was when she did suicide
unborn glacier
I do not like the things this leaker has to say. No housing or guild halls REALLY has me disappointed
stable ibex
Not all of his leaks ended up being true iirc correctly though, so, who knows.
unborn glacier
Ive wanted Guild halls for sooooooooooooooo long
Something a guild can work together on customizing and making feel like a progress of their acheivements
Same goes for Housing
sullen dawn
What other leaks has he posted?
jade basalt
I don't get the part where he says Death can't manifest in the real world "much like Sargeras". He said that multiple times, but it never made sense. Sargeras isn't a Void Lord, he never had any issue "manifesting" or existing in the real world.
tropic trail
yep
dense plover
Sargeras just couldnt get to azeroth in a realistic amount of time because it was so far and he is so big
thats why they spent so much time summoning him
and the purpose of the sargerite keystone
novel zodiac
sullen dawn
Not in next expansion but 2 more in 8.3.5/preorder feels cool
Just to round/even it out vs normal races
terse patrol
I just hope they finally give the Alliance an allied race that people want.
terse patrol
Though I get the feeling weâre in line for reskinned humans who are dead.
Yes. People wanted dark irons.
sullen dawn
Please. I really want light undead:D
terse patrol
The Horde has gotten more races that they specifically wanted, however.
Youâre one person.
sullen dawn
I dunno I think its pretty even
It's a matter of taste I guess
I do hate void elves tho they can rot
We got robbed on that one :p
Plus it's not just me. Most people I play with are hyper for mechagnomes and have wanted them since 8.2 was revealed
tranquil steeple
only AR I've heard Horde want is Zandalari Trolls
terse patrol
Iâm just saying, Alliance got reskinned draenei, poor high elf compromise, dark irons (we wanted those), Kul Tirans (ok? But the females suck), Mechagnomes (look the same as normal gnomes except they wear metal diapers and have poor customization)
tranquil steeple
and Mag'har is the Horde equivalent to LF Draenei
sullen dawn
No highmountain is horde equivalent to lf draenei
Mag'har is equivalent to dark iron
terse patrol
The Horde got Magâhar (wanted since Burning Crusade), Highmountain (reskinned Tauren, I agree theyâre lame), Nightborne (wanted by both sides, went Horde), Zandalari (big want for the Horde), and Vulpera (extremely unique race)
sullen dawn
I mean I think kul titans are cooler than zandalari and mechagnomes are waaaaaay better than the fox peoppe
tranquil steeple
Mag'har is still reskinned orcs, aswell
sullen dawn
Ok yes nightborne are much cooler than void elves
terse patrol
Yes, Sel, but the difference is?
tranquil steeple
Nightborne I couldn't really care about
sullen dawn
But apart from that it's even, and down to taste
tranquil steeple
same with HM tauren
terse patrol
The Horde have asked for them since basically the start of the game.
sullen dawn
Highmountain are just like lightforged
terse patrol
They may be a reskin, but theyâre something people wanted.
terse patrol
The Alliance has thus far got reskins and asspulls. And fat humans.
Dark Irons are cool, though.
sullen dawn
I know lots of people who think the kul titans are the coolest race in the game
They're awesome
tropic trail
i hate Kultirans
uncut vault
the big difference is, with the exception of highmountain, every horde allied race has been highly requested by the community. Dark Iron are the only widely requested Alliance allied race.
sullen dawn
Your mom is a female power lifter? :p
uncut vault
community opinion when mechagnomes came out was widely "please dont be an allied race"
terse patrol
âPower lifter
sullen dawn
Community opinion is just hivemind nonsense. People following memes
sullen dawn
My first reaction to mechagnomes was for the love of science please be an allied race
I'm just disappointed no mecha paladins
sullen dawn
Especially after one of them was interested in the light in mechagon
terse patrol
Mechagnomes are literally just what gnomes should have got as customization.
uncut vault
Nobody asked for cyborg amputee gnomes before BfA, they asked for real mechagnomes and we got a compromise. Nobody asked for void corrupted blood elves, they asked for high elves and we got a compromise. Nobody asked for yellow draenei, they asked for broken and we got a compromise. Nobody asked for large humans before BfA, they asked for Vrykul and we got a compromise.
terse patrol
Thereâs nothing different about them really. No new classes.
Nothing to make them stand out.
uncut vault
Dark Irons are the only alliance allied race that isnt a compromise
terse patrol
Theyâre just gnomes but even better technology.
sullen dawn
Seems about right
uncut vault
the only compromise race on Horde is Highmountain, for Taunka
floral ruin
Everything the alliance asked for was changed.
sullen dawn
sullen dawn
Looks like kul tiran women to me
terse patrol
wot
sullen dawn
The images I posted
terse patrol
sullen dawn
You said they didn't look like powerlifters
sullen dawn
Sorry I wasnt talking about your pictures
terse patrol
We got moms.
uncut vault
Im someone that likes kul tirans, both men and women, but it doesnt change that they are a compromise for what people really wanted.
floral ruin
^
sullen dawn
Seafairing British hard people is cooler than vrykuls imo
Vrykul are too edgy
We have enough edgy stuff
tulip sun
Vrykuls just didn't fit into the specific story they wanted
sullen dawn
Kinda why I want tinker so bad. We need another fun class like monk
tulip sun
There is chance we could get them still
sullen dawn
That said I wouldn't hate vrykuls down the line as a normal race additon
uncut vault
the point is that Alliance and Horde both deserve to get pre-established, requested concepts as allied races, not newly invented offshoots. The Horde largely doesn't have to, Alliance shouldn't either.
sullen dawn
Vulpera and hightmojntain are just as newly invited and offshooty as mechagnomes and lightforged
And kul tirans have been in the lore since wc2/3
The only ass pull is void elves, but even nightborne arent that re-established (although they are way cooler than void elves I admit)
uncut vault
if you read up, youd know that we've been criticizing highmountain too, and vulpera were not intended to be an allied race before player feedback.
Kul Tirans as 8 foot tall burly monsters were not in lore since wc2
sullen dawn
Well I'm arguing against specifically the point that alliance got shafted on allied races
tulip sun
Vulpera I am FAIRLY sure were always intended
They had these updated models for ages
Before KTs and Zandalar were even begun or finalized
sullen dawn
Mechagnome type creatures have been in the lore much longer than vulpera as well
uncut vault
mechagnomes have
sullen dawn
All the way back to ulduar at least
tulip sun
Mag'har, Dark Iron, and Zandalari were the only ones really pre established. Every other one was established in a recent patch then made playable, except void elves where we saw their creation in the recruitment.
sullen dawn
Ok I'm just saying the argument that alliance didn't get pre-established races while horde did just isnt true
dark furnace
What other Gnome race could the Alliance have gotten that have story relevance than Junkergnomes?
uncut vault
mechagnomes didnt have story relevance, and still dont, their island is 100% isolated
dark furnace
Until recently, just like Vulpera
uncut vault
they could have gotten actual mechagnomes
tulip sun
Races are not solely about their outward, physical appearance.
sullen dawn
Vulpera are super isolated and their story is even more irrelevant than the mechagon one
Just because they're not on an island....
tulip sun
And nothing has relevance...until we make it relevant. What did HMT do after they were introduced in a patch. Lightforged? AU Mag'har after WoD? Vulpera had a few cameos but that is it.
sullen dawn
Yes exactly
uncut vault
Lightforged, Void Elves, large Kul Tirans, and cyborg gnomes were all concepts invented within one patch of being playable, less time than that in the case of void elves. Highmountain fall under a similar vein, and we have been criticizing them. Zandalari and Maghar are pre-existing concepts that formed the basis of the allied race concept, along with high elves (which Alliance did not get) and Dark Irons. Vulpera and Nightborne were both intended as NPC races, where with heavy player request, became playable races.
distant folio
Nobody asked for yellow draenei
Uh when 7.3 came out, everyone was asking for lightforged draenei. We even asked the devs for them in every Q&A.
Although we were more thinking customization than wholly separate race.
That's the problem with most allied races, they're just customization but put on a completely separate race, instead of being given to the mother-race. So you end up having to make a completely new character, with only like 3 customization options.
tulip sun
Vulpera were planned beforehand
dark furnace
They had cape support from the start
sullen dawn
Large kul tirans happened at the exact same time as zandalari got new models
tulip sun
You claiming otherwise is bull.
dark furnace
The Vulpera even had the Heart of Azeroth animation
uncut vault
So did sethrak
dark furnace
And they are not deconfirmed
uncut vault
and Kul Tirans, which blizzard explicitly werent originally planning as an allied race before changing their schedule
sullen dawn
If you're mentioning mag'har then dark irons just evens that out
dark furnace
The Kul Tirans have a completely new rig, which is why they were not planned
uncut vault
yes, maghar and dark iron are an even pairing. Dark Iron do not even out for Maghar and Zandalari
distant folio
It's not that KT were not planned, it's that they were not certain they would be able to pull them off. Turns out they were.
dark furnace
The amount of work they had to put into it was at least triple of all the other races
sullen dawn
You said large kul tirans appeared out of nowhere apatch before becoming allied races
Even if they weren't going to be allied races, the npcs were always going to be large
uncut vault
they were introduced in 8.0, they came out in tides of vengeance, one patch cycle later
sullen dawn
So were zandalaris
dark furnace
If anything, the Kul Tirans became an Allied Race because of the players wanting it
uncut vault
Zandalari were introduced in their current aesthetic in 5.2
distant folio
A lot of people were hoping KT would become playable
dark furnace
And that's why Blizzard changed their mind
distant folio
Tbh I think KT are more unique than vrykul anyway
sullen dawn
Agree starseeker
This just seems like a game of moving goalposts
Alliance got shafted with void elves yes
uncut vault
this is devolving into disingenuity, so have fun with the "alliance totally got what they asked for!!!! hides actual mechagnomes, high elves, and broken in a corner" discussion
sullen dawn
But apart from that its virtually even
sullen dawn
Yes it definitely is devolving alright
tulip sun
People dislike and like each race.
sullen dawn
One rule for horde and one for alliance it seems
tulip sun
I personally like all the ARs for what they are. I can see some flaws, yes, but they bring unique stories and characters.
There is always future ARs and core races.
distant folio
I'm sorry but eople rarely asked for full-mechagnomes back then. If you look at all the subrace threads from before, the most popular concept for a gnome subrace was half-mechagnomes: this was linked everywhere, and it's essentially what we got, only non-tinan-y (though tbf it does look cooler) https://i.imgur.com/nxxdzFm.jpg
tulip sun
ARs allow for races similar to the core, but not unique enough to be a core to be playable.
dark furnace
If they made more Allied Races, would they make a separate category for them or not?
Since the one we have now is almost full
tulip sun
LFD is the only thing that would be even possible lorewise as customization.
dark furnace
With one spot left for each faction
dark furnace
They could make a BFA Races tab and another one for the new ones
sullen dawn
Thanks for making me feel not alone in this argument khamnin :p
upper lantern
I think void elves have potential but right now they're complete jokes (though I've 3 void elves; I do love the blood elf model/animations). They could've been introduced in a much better way.
tulip sun
Their introduction was a bit eh.
upper lantern
Lorewise nightbornes are way cooler but the playable model is a disaster
tulip sun
But I think they've proven themselves in BfA.
sullen dawn
True I dont hate void elves because they're void elves
distant folio
Most allied races could just be customization options. Orcs but brown. Tauren but with tattoos and different horns. Draenei but with tattoos and different horns. Etc.
upper lantern
Zandalari and Dark Iron are the better AR imo
dark furnace
Void Elves got the better models, while Nightborne got the better lore
dark furnace
Hopefully it will improve
terse patrol
Issue with Lightforged: âhereâs white draenei with even LESS class options. Have fun!â
distant folio
Void elves, Nightborne and Vulpera deserve to be proper allied races as they can't really be just customization options.
sullen dawn
Theres like what, 2 named void elves?
tulip sun
Starseeker. I just explained this
upper lantern
Brown orcs and lightforged draenei should definitely have been customizations
distant folio
Even if I detest vulpera.
tulip sun
They are similar to base races, but too different for customizations. Especially lorewise
upper lantern
Yeah. All you have is Umbric and Alleria for the Void Elves
tulip sun
You gain lightforging through a ritual
distant folio
They're not "too different for customization" though. You could've just played a draenei, played the scenario, get Lightforged, and boom, you unlock "Lightforged Draenei Customization Options".
tulip sun
You don't get antlers through a ritual. You don't randomly turn brown. Zandalari as a customization? REALLY?
sullen dawn
And alleria doesn't even look like the pcs
upper lantern
Valleria Sanguinar and Vereesa could've become void elves (and the latter could've brought the silver covenant with her)
tulip sun
LFD is the only one that would make any sense
sullen dawn
So its really just Umbric
distant folio
Zandalari deserve to be their own allied race
tulip sun
As I said, lightforging is a ritual like the ritual with the night elves.
upper lantern
Zandalari, Kul Tirans and Vulpera are chad
sullen dawn
Vulpera ain't chad
distant folio
The others I quoted could just be customization options. You can play the exact same scenario, the exact same quests, only instead of unlocking "New Allied Race: Highmountain" you unlock "New Customization: Highmountain".
It's got nothing to do with lore, this is purely gameplay. You can then go and customize your tauren to be a Highmountain if you want.
tulip sun
Appearance isn't everything. Consider history and their basic lore foundations.
upper lantern
Well at least Vulpera look quite different from the base race. I wouldn't ever play any though
tulip sun
You don't just grow antlers as a random mulgore tauren
upper lantern
speaking of Chad, worgen are totally chad now. Even the females
dark furnace
Vulpera is the only race that is completely different from the base race
terse patrol
Mechagnomes would have been more palatable if they had, yâknow, a unique class. Like druid, or paladin. Or even shaman. But theyâre just gnome classes. Also, the fact they use the same exact faces as normal gnomes.
distant folio
You don't grow the antlers man, you just unlock the customization, just like how you can just suddenly change your skin color at the barber.
dark furnace
From a lore standpoint
tulip sun
Mag'har classes are a huge example of why they'd not work as a customization
sullen dawn
Yeh highnojntain have antlers due to gift from cenarios
uncut vault
less than the normal, actually
they have the bottom three faces cut off
and no eyebrows
upper lantern
I could see mechagnome paladin with some bullshit titan heritage explanation. And a glowing mechanic spider mount because why the hell not
tulip sun
In the eyes of the devs, each race comes from a specific place and culture.
You can't just add highmountain tauren horns.
to thunder bluff tauren
sullen dawn
I really wanted mecha paladin
dark furnace
Remember, the Zandalari were originally not slated to have paladin, but through feedback they eventually added it
sullen dawn
Was ready to change my main and everything
distant folio
You could've, if they had decided to.
tulip sun
Physically appearance isn't all a race is.
dark furnace
The same could happen with Mechagnomes
terse patrol
Imagine mechagnome druid. Their beast forms are robot beasts. They use healing beams for their âhealing magicâ. Or crystals infused with healing magic.
tulip sun
That honestly would be cool Honk.
distant folio
Mag'har alone are like 7 different orc tribes in 1, so clearly it would have been possible to make multiple tauren tribes in 1.
sullen dawn
So this a different issue to the allied races themselves...what class they get
distant folio
No, literally the same thing.
sullen dawn
And on this one.. I actually fully agreee
terse patrol
We get gnomes. Literally just gnomes. Same class. But hey, they cut their dicks and butts off and replaced them with metal diapers.
Cool!
tulip sun
They've been unified as a tribe for a long time. They've literally lived side by side, fighting for survival.
sullen dawn
I love the allied race mechas
tulip sun
Highmountain and Thunder bluff tauren JUST MET.
sullen dawn
But they should have pala/dryid
upper lantern
Mechagnome shamans would be nice too
distant folio
And? The point is that gameplay-wise, they put 7 tribes in 1. So it's not all about 1 origin, you could have had Highmountain customization on your tauren.
tulip sun
It is one origin
upper lantern
There's a good amount of tech-based mail gear
Mythic Blackrock Foundry has tesla coils if I recall correctly
dark furnace
That would require a starting zone revamp Starseeker
sullen dawn
The tribes of mag'har amalgamated in the team we were away from AU draenor
tulip sun
You may have laughing skull heritage, or blackrock heritage. But you are a Mag'har from the remaining orcs of AU Draenor. Unified together, living together.
sullen dawn
So it makes sense that they're unified
distant folio
@dark furnace Yes, we're talking about a "what if" scenario.
upper lantern
and the Siege of org hunter set fits gnomes well
dark furnace
To explain why the Highmountain are suddenly united with the Bloodhoof
sullen dawn
Tauren and highmountain are not unified
dark furnace
Yeah
terse patrol
imo
dark furnace
They could be, if they explained it in the story
tulip sun
I get you want more unique looking races.
terse patrol
I think it would have been more compelling if Highmountains went Alliance.
sullen dawn
But they're not
tulip sun
But lorewise it just doesn't work to add these as customization.
and honestly honk, while I LOVEEEEEE
sullen dawn
They just met, after millennia of living apart
terse patrol
Yeah.
distant folio
This is literally not about the lore, it's all about gameplay. You could do the same scenario and just unlock "Highmountain customization", boom now you can play a Highmountain tauren, without having to create a completely new character who's got only like 3 face options.
tulip sun
I could see perhaps at some point in the future you guys get a bovine.
Yaungol perhaps
Taunka are firmly horde.
terse patrol
They could have been like âwhile we love you Kalimdor Tauren, your warchief is nuts. And weâre ok with Night Elves. Sooo.â
upper lantern
Lorewise HMT has strong grounds as allied race, it's pretty much like nightborne and night elves tbh. Distant relatives with shared heritage
distant folio
It's the same lore implications. The lore is exactly the same, it's the same scenario, the same quests. Only difference is the gameplay.
sullen dawn
,yes as allied rwcds they make sense
Just not as being a customization option of normal tauren
tulip sun
Lore is as much influence into an AR as their appearance.
zealous basalt
What is the discussion now
upper lantern
Lore is why high elves would be better than void elves too
distant folio
It's the same lore. No lore difference.
tulip sun
regular tauren are Thunder Bluff Taurenm
distant folio
They don't have to be.
tulip sun
They are.
dark furnace
The looks are why Void Elves were chosen before High Elves
terse patrol
Iâd have loved Alliance Highmountains. It would have been different and cool.
upper lantern
High elves are already in the alliance, if you think they'd look too much like BEs just give them tattoos, blue eyes and hair
tulip sun
Regular dwarves are Bronzebeard from
distant folio
You could just have a Tauren race. And you could choose Highmountain customization.
sullen dawn
But highmountain tauren have to have antlers
tulip sun
v.v
sullen dawn
And mulgore tauren cannot have antlers
tulip sun
You ignore everything I say.
distant folio
Yes, so if you want Highmountain tauren antlers, you go to the barber and pick "Highmountain antlers".
tulip sun
Just because they are similar in physical appearance doesn't mean that would work
sullen dawn
It's a magical gidt
upper lantern
Yeah if you just have a "base" tauren, orc, draenei or dwarf race I can see the point
distant folio
^
tulip sun
But we don't
upper lantern
Though I'd have antler tauren start in highmountain tbh
sullen dawn
If you gi to the barber and pick highmountain tauren...the barber changed your race?
distant folio
No, you change your antlers.
As a draenei you could add Lightforged tattoos for instance.
distant folio
I mean... sure. It's customization anyway.
zealous basalt
Is the discussion now of why Allied races exist when they could be extra customizations?
sullen dawn
Do you go to the barber and ask for a beak?
upper lantern
It's one of the discussions yeah
tulip sun
We are having a couple in one discussion
zealous basalt
Because it has been an old discussion there
tulip sun
It has been an old discussion everywhere.
distant folio
You realize tauren can already choose between different types of horns at the barber, right? So there'd just be more "Highmountain antler" options.
terse patrol
I just want a Alliance allied race thatâs unique and has no relation to existing races. 
distant folio
@terse patrol Vulpera!
tulip sun
Throwing a curve ball at em
sullen dawn
But then the barber transformed their race
dark furnace
Highmountain have the Antlers for a very different reason than why Tauren have horns
terse patrol
Vulpera are Horde.
tulip sun
I think a tauren-like race would be cool
zealous basalt
And the reason afaik is because different introductions and lore that connect themselves and makes it different to the race they are based on
dark furnace
Tauren evolved horns, Highmountain were gifted them
distant folio
Yes.
sullen dawn
Itd remove the point of having different races
And make the tauren lore much less interesting
distant folio
Don't see how that matters to a barber. Point is you could just change your horns at the barber like any other customization.
dark furnace
And if they gave regular Tauren antlers, it wouldnt make them Highmountain
tulip sun
Generalizing races doesn't help anybody.
dark furnace
It would make them Taurens with antlers
sullen dawn
It's like changing from a dwarf to a gnome at the barbera
tulip sun
Highmountain are distinct in their own way.
distant folio
It would be called "Highmountain customization" so that if you wanted to, you could turn your tauren into a Highmountain tauren.
tulip sun
You can't just throw wildhammer, dark iron and bronzebeard lore, customization and more under one race and call it a day.
distant folio
No, Highmountain tauren are still tauren dude, just like how Lightforged draenei are still draenei.
zealous basalt
Lightforged are different draenei than the draenei from exodar afaik
distant folio
They are still tauren. "Tauren" is their race. They are tauren that live in Highmountain.
tulip sun
Wildhammer are lore-wise thinner and taller. Dark Iron have flaming beards.
dark furnace
The culture is very different,
upper lantern
Kul Tirans and Humans are the same race though
distant folio
They are literally the same race, just different cultures.
upper lantern
Same for LF and Draenei
tulip sun
Classes too is also a problem
zealous basalt
Allied races are just different cultures
distant folio
^
zealous basalt
Kham
distant folio
(most)
zealous basalt
Come on
upper lantern
^
zealous basalt
You had this discussion with Des back then
sullen dawn
Cenarius fmgifted the highmountain with antlers and affinity with nature in war of the ancients
zealous basalt
About why Nightfallen elves went with Horde instead of Alliance
distant folio
Yes. They're still tauren.
zealous basalt
It's because cultures
tulip sun
Highmountain have a long, different history compared to the thunder bluff tauren.
Very different.
sullen dawn
Yes magically altered tauren
tulip sun
They have gone through different struggles and problems to make them what they are.
terse patrol
^
zealous basalt
Not just magic altered tauren
distant folio
Nobody is denying that.
distant folio
Not sure how that is relevant to the fact you could have an Antlers option at the barber.
tulip sun
Throwing them and saying theyre just tauren under baine makes no sense, and does not give them justice.
terse patrol
Highmountain only went Horde imo because they wanted a love interest for Baine.
tulip sun
And I agree Honk
distant folio
They're not "tauren under baine" wtf
tulip sun
I honestly expected mechagnomes to have a female leader for Mekkatorque
dark furnace
They would be if regular Tauren got the antlers
They would be Baine Tauren with antlers
distant folio
No, it would be called "Highmountain customization".
You would BE a Highmountain tauren
dark furnace
Yes, but from the lore they would still be from Mulgore
tulip sun
No. You'd be a thunder bluff tauren who magically got antlers from a tribe who's ancestor earned them from a wild god.
distant folio
No, from the lore they would be from Highmountain. It's still the exact same questline and scenario.
sullen dawn
Racials would still be mulgore tauren too?
upper lantern
There'd only be one set of racials
sullen dawn
And character select screen
distant folio
If allied races had been a customization option, there wouldn't be any racials or classes
tulip sun
So much more is involved in this than their appearance.
sullen dawn
So basically we lose a bunch if the cool stuff that makes highmountain unique
For no gain
Would we lose the sweet moose form for druids?
distant folio
It'd be just like getting Straight Back option for orc or Gold eyes option for blood elf at the barber
sullen dawn
The cool character background screen
tulip sun
It is NOTHING like that.
sullen dawn
The highmountain rep and mount. The jokes/filters etc..
upper lantern
It is all like that
tulip sun
Gold eyes are just a development fo the Sin'dorei lore.
sullen dawn
*flirts
tulip sun
Like night warrior eyes are a development in their story.
sullen dawn
You basically wanna butcher highmountain
tulip sun
Highmountain are a completely different culture, faction. People.
sullen dawn
For the sake of convenience
distant folio
For no gain
Uh
- you wouldn't have to create a wholly separate character, and level them 100 levels
- you wouldn't have to change their name
- you would have more than just 3 face options. What sucks about allied races is that they only have like 4 options, so they all look the same.
sullen dawn
Yeh that's boring
tulip sun
So you just don't want to put in the work to make a new character...
distant folio
Your Highmountain tauren you're playing right now would look exactly the same. Everything would be the same, but without the pain of having to relevel or having only 3 haircuts, only they wouldn't have special racials.
sullen dawn
Having it as a separate race is better 1) lore wise, 2) immersion wise and 3) subjectively gameplay wise
distant folio
Yes, separate race works better for immersion. But it absolutely sucks for customization.
Since you only get like 4 haircuts etc.
sullen dawn
I prefer it than what you're suggesting
distant folio
Sure, that's fine.
ancient jasper
For those saying earlier that Kul Tiran are just humans - Pretty sure they're part Drust, actually.
distant folio
No, KT are not part Drust as far as we know
tulip sun
Tauren have always been lackluster in options. Doesn't change anything
Making them customization would ruin it.
upper lantern
Drust were their enemies who already lived in KT when human settlers got there
distant folio
Doesn't change anything
Come on that's just arguing in bad faith. There's a difference between having 15 haircuts and having 3 haircuts, that's not even up for debate.
tulip sun
And some of them are part drust. Those in the thornspeakers we know for a fact are.
ancient jasper
Explain why Kul Tiran Druids have Drust forms, then.
distant folio
You can say "I prefer it the other way" like Toby did and that'd be fine, but don't throw "uh I don't want more customization options" I don't buy it.
sullen dawn
Well they have frust magic at the very leasy
upper lantern
Their mentor is a drust
tulip sun
It is all the same amount of customization.
upper lantern
You meet him in drustvar
distant folio
No it's not.
tulip sun
Making it an AR just makes them unique, like they are.
Doing customization options is not giving them the credit they are due.
You want to generalize stuff.
distant folio
@ancient jasper Because they learn from a Drust.
upper lantern
AR versus more customization is just ingame bureaucracy
ancient jasper
Ehhh
distant folio
It's not even Drust forms actually, it's the forms of the creatures of Drustvar.
Just like how night elves turn into creatures of Kalimdor.
And Zandalari into creatures of Zandalar, for the most part.
ancient jasper
Okay I'll give you that, I suppose.
I just don't see how you go from looking like a normal Human to being taller than Night Elves without some type of change.
tulip sun
The drust archdruid literally says the descendants of those who interbred come to learn the ways of their ancestors.
distant folio
No he doesn't say interbred at all. He said "We Thornspeakers joined Kul Tiran society. Some of their descendants heard the call of the wilds and wished to learn the ancient ways, and so we have taught them."
The Drust Thornspeakers went to human society and taught some humans the ways of druidism. Now there's only 1 Drust Thornspeaker remaining, Ulfar, all the rest of the Thornspeakers are humans.
tulip sun
âŚ.Thornspeakers joined KT society.
Their descendents heard the call of the wilds and wished to learn the ancient ways.
Right there.
distant folio
THEIR descendants refers to the humans, otherwise he would've said OUR descendants. Basic English.
just don't see how you go from looking like a normal Human to being taller than Night Elves without some type of change.
There always were tall humans. Arathi were barracks. Lothar was compared to an orc. Garithos was a good chap as well. And look at these guys.
https://i.imgur.com/RBbnkCr.jpg
Also this is not even up for debate, Blizzard officially stated they are not a difference race.
tulip sun
It isn't his descendants if he didn't have kids.
distant folio
He is talking collectively, he would've used "our", not "mine"
But he said THEIR descendants. The humans' descendants.
tulip sun
Those who joined KT society.
ancient jasper
Where did Blizzard say anything about Kul Tiran heritage?
tulip sun
The drust that did
distant folio
No, that's "we".
We -> our
The humans -> their
Bold goes with bold
CAPITALLIZED goes with CAPITALLIZED
"We Thornspeakers joined KUL TIRAN SOCIETY. Some of THEIR descendants heard the call of the wilds and wished to learn the ancient ways, and so we have taught THEM."
zealous basalt
WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY
distant folio
@ancient jasper "And no, theyâre not intended to be a different race, [theyâre] just variants on Kul Tirans. " - Blizzard
He said that about thin kul tiran and fat kul tiran
They're not a difference race. They're not interbred. They're just humans, with different body types. They just wanted more variety on Kul Tiras instead of having the same human model everywhere, so they added a thin model and a bulk model.
They also went in length into this at BlizzCon where they just said that Kul Tirans have more of a "monster hunter" body type, because they're rougher etc.
Just like how other races have different body types as well.
Gallywix isn't interbred with Drust either.
upper lantern
fat blood elf and thin pandaren when
zealous basalt
A thin pandaren is just someone with a sickness
ancient jasper
" So, Thin Man and Fat Man are what we call them internally. And no, theyâre not intended to be a different race, [theyâre] just variants on Kul Tirans."
Says nothing about Kul Tiran Heritage
distant folio
Wut
"theyâre not intended to be a different race, [theyâre] just variants on Kul Tirans"
ancient jasper
Variants of Kul Tirans. Do we know WHO these Kul Tirans ancestors are?
distant folio
Yes. Gilneans.
ancient jasper
That's a hell of a lot of time between Gilneans and Kul Tirans
distant folio
There's a hell of a lot of time between Gilneas and modern-Gilneas, they're still humans.
ancient jasper
There's just far too much pointing towards some type of intermingling for me not to believe they have at least some non-human ancestry.
distant folio
There is literally nothing pointing towards it.
Absolutely not one single element.
ancient jasper
If you say so. đ
distant folio
No I mean, literally. Do you have anything that states so?
And why are you trying to make up an origin for fat Kul Tiran but not for thin Kul Tiran? They're wildly different as well!
Unless thin Kul Tiran interbred with sticks.
Point is, there is absolutely nothing backing up the idea that fat KT are of Drust origin. Nothing says they interbred with Drust (and they couldn't even if they wanted to, there was only a handful of Thornspeakers, unless each of them knocked up 50000 humans), and Blizzard also directly stated that fat KT are not a different race, just a different body type for Kul Tiran exactly like thin KT.
ancient jasper
Do you have anything that states that there was no interbreeding whatsoever? Because let's be fair here: Humans are descendants of Vrykul and the Drust are just an off-shoot of the Vrykul.
distant folio
No no no no wow hey. Kul Tirans are stated to be humans.
You're the one claiming they are of Drust origin, so you're the one who needs to provide proof of that, and there isn't any.
And no, Drust are actual vrykul, not an offshoot.
ancient jasper
Counterpoint: There is no proof that wasn't any interbreeding.
distant folio
That's not a counterpoint. You can't just make up something and ask other people to debunk it.
Otherwise I can do that too: Kul Tirans descend from dragons. Can you prove they DON'T come from dragons? No? Okay I win then!
upper lantern
Yeah, that's not how it works
distant folio
^ That's really stupid.
ancient jasper
That's extremely disingenuous, Starseeker.
distant folio
It's literally what you are doing.
long blade
F kultirans orc booty is where is at
ancient jasper
Not even close, but sure.
distant folio
It's literally exactly the same thing, I just replaced the word "Drust" with the word "dragon".
ancient jasper
I'm done here. Enjoy your night.
distant folio
Can replace it with anything, it's exactly what you are doing. You made up something and since it can't be countered, you consider it true.
jade basalt
Yeah Dominique the burden of proof would be on you here.
As far as we know, humans of Kul Tiras are not interbred with Drust.
The few Drust Thornspeakers that survived joined KT society (well, "joined"... they lived in a cave far away from the nearest human village) and taught some of the humans' descendants the ways of druidism, creating more druids aka Thornspeakers, upon which now befalls the duty of protecting nature. That's all we know, no mention of interbreeding.
Now, we of course are free to speculate, and even imagine, that a Drust or two got freaky with some of their students, just like with any other race (there's probably some blood elf-Nightborne children out there already), that's not impossible. In fact, feel free. But this wouldn't be the origin of the "fat humans".
First of all because the numbers wouldn't even allow it, the Thornspeakers were the only Drust who left Drust society, hell there's only 1 left currently.
Secondly because Blizzard directly said that's not what happened, "fat humans" are just normal humans, so that closes the debate entirely.
And thirdly because "fat humans" existed long before Kul Tiras even showed up in BFA. We had fat humans in Warcraft 3, we had fat humans in Alpha WoW, and technically we still have fat humans in Old Hillsbrad. And thin humans as well.
Finally, Blizzard stated at BlizzCon that KT humans were overall much stronger, taller, bulkier, because of their ancient lifestyle, their marine ways, and so on. Their way of life just makes it so they're more likely to look like giant wrestlers than the average non-KT human.
There is just no need for a magical origin to fat humans. Not everything needs magic!
ancient jasper
For the third thing: I never said anything about being fat. I said being taller than Night Elves.
distant folio
Dude... "fat human", "tall human", "hulk human", whatever you want to call it, we're all talking about the same guys.
And we have people taller than night elves in real life as well so.
still would love this https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnGASR5XsAE2udF.jpg
unborn glacier
Would be cool
But were'nt the Mok'nathal wiped out? Leaving Rexxar as the last one?
Im not too knowledgeable on them
upper lantern
I think there was a mok'nathal village in Outland
dense plover
there are very few
they are outcasts
far less than void elves
i think its less than 20
dense plover
no
its implied there were a small group that got kicked out
and more joined them
its probably close to hundreds
maybe low thousands
ancient jasper
o_O
dense plover
and you can turn blood elves into void elves
you cant turn anything into moknathal
especially when ogres arent breeding with orcs
ancient jasper
I mean.. technically.. you could have a whole Alexstrasza situation with that.
unborn glacier
I honestly find the theory of Drust/human interbreeding to cause modern KT's to be believable, but we have no evidence it is that way.
austere gazelle
I''m sur they could pull out a " AU Mok'nathal" coming into MU thanks to the Mag'har
vernal juniper
Man, usually when they release the shedule for blizzcon? we are 2 weeks away and no news
I know there is no info on the shedule but we can speculate on the numbers of panels for every game
unborn glacier
I think I'mma book off the day with all the WoW announcements
round lake
itll be this week
strange falcon
Wouldnt mok nathal just be kultirans for the horde?
cyan prairie
No, because people would actually enjoy playing Mok'nathal
dark furnace
Rexxar and the Kultirans use the same skeletons
cyan prairie
Btw for some reason Rexxar has his model without the Hood etc. And that model still wasn't used anywhere so far.
cinder stirrup
a true lucha never removes his mask 
limber mural
Put in the work for the blue admiral's hat you coward
strange falcon
Tinfoil Hat Conspiracy theory: Warcraft 3 Reforged is setting the groundswork for a wow 2
with the incredibly high-res models
đ¤
strange falcon
thats because they're made to be seen from above not up close
terse patrol
The new W3 models are outsourced to Chinese devs, and if shows. They look plastic, and the females look straight out of a Korean MMO.
Doesnât look like Blizzardâs style at all.
Theyâre only well received because anything it better than the polygon nightmare that is old W3 models.
dense plover
they dont look like plastic
they just look like that in the model viewer
because they dont have any shaders, shadows, etc
also, whats your source on them being "outsourced"
terse patrol
Style wise they look like theyâre from a Korean MMO or a Chinese mobile game.
dense plover
they really dont in game
tropic trail
they look like every other korean mmo
like a basic template every other asian company uses
dense plover
they dont look anything like that
like - I dont know why you hate them, but they clearly look like lots of work was put into them
strange falcon
thats tera,i've played it
terse patrol
If someone told you that was a new W3 model, youâd be like âooo, is that a new swamp monster!??â
dense plover
and just because you dont like something doesnt mean they outsourced it
no, i wouldnt
because it doesnt look similar
it doesnt even match the artstyle
strange falcon
i mean,i've seen people have a hate-boner for DemonHunters xd
it's not that uncommon
dense plover
just because you dont like something, doesnt make it bad
terse patrol
Someone post the High Elf Villager or Sylvanas.
And compare these faces
(Not the clothes)
strange falcon
i mean,that pose is the same actual bloodelves have been using in wow since 2007
strange falcon
they definitely have a lot of detail in the embroideries etc
terse patrol
Theyâre only better because Blizzard required it, Iâm sure. But the models have that telltale âplasticâ feel of all Korean MMOs.
dark furnace
I don't see it
terse patrol
Even the grass looks like astroturf.
dark furnace
But I'll take your word for it
dense plover
uh
that definitely isnt right
the shadows are round circles
and the light is omni directional
someone made it look like that
or its an early alpha screenshot
royal orchid
it's an offical screenshot, some just look a bit like plastic, some look a bit off the artstyle we know from WoW, but I wouldn't say that's an indicate for outsourcing. I think it looks like that because it's obviously a different team than we used to in terms of WoW
and we should not forget that this is still the same engine, just an upgraded version which still has it's limitations
jade basalt
I enjoy the new Reforged models, although it's true that the artstyle/proportions for some is not what we are used to. But texture-wise it's going to blend well in-game, it's always more off-putting when you look at them in a vacuum like that, but if you played the Demo at last year's BlizzCon, it just looks quite natural.
So it doesn't bother me, but the only model that I truly think is just "wrong" is the Reforged dragon model. They really, really are not like Warcraft dragons. It looks more like a dragon from some Asian MMO. You really wouldn't look at that first picture here and think "ah yeah that's clearly Warcraft".
https://www.pcgamesn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/red-dragon-warcraft-iii-reforged.jpg
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/4/44/Skywalldragon.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170128053854
https://gamepedia.cursecdn.com/wowpedia/thumb/0/0b/Dragons.JPG/1200px-Dragons.JPG
https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/blog/images/16235-warcraft-s-15th-anniversary-celebration-ragnaros-statue-obsidian-worldbreaker-mo.jpg
Although the dorsal spikes and skin are welcome.
distant folio
Huh, it does look really off.
jade basalt
And the models were indeed outsourced, to a Japanese studio called Lemon Sky studio. It's why you'll find some Asian influence in some models, like the dragon, or Arthas' Final Fantasy face. But I think they did a phenomenal job. It's still being supervised by Blizzard, but models, textures, effects, etc. are made by Lemon Sky. They had already done the Starcraft Remaster a few years ago.
distant folio
So it's not done by Blizzard artists?
jade basalt
No, Lemon Sky artists. Although there was one instance of a Blizzard artist helping out, he made the Gold Mine model (but not the textures/coloring/etc.), but that was an exceptional situation because they were late for BlizzCon last year so he helped out.
distant folio
I guess that explains why the artstyle doesn't look familiar.
But I don't mean this as a bad thing, I really enjoy the realistic look of Reforged, it reminds me of the CGI cinematics, it's like all the units are straight out of CGI cinematics.
jade basalt
CGI cinematics were one big inspiration for the models, like notably the Orc Grunt, who was basically copied from the MoP cinematic they explained.
The Warcraft movie was another big inspiration - Grom is straight out of the movie, Gul'dan is also heavily inspired by the movie (+ some HotS inspiration), Thrall and his wolf are heavily inspired by the Doomplate Orgrim concept art for the movie, etc.
distant folio
Oh I hadn't noticed that about Thrall
And some people don't like the Grom model because he isn't slender like he was in WC3 but come on, Grom hasn't been slender in 10 years. I love his buff look. He was like that in WoD, in Chronicle, etc.
jade basalt
Yeah, plus it matches Garrosh being a buff guy as well.
But I can understand why some would prefer the old, slender Grom.
jade basalt
Yeah the model itself is great. But it's just not really Warcraft. But eh, if that's our worst problem, then we're in a pretty good spot.
distant folio
Something closer to this would've been nice https://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/28/27592/thumb_620x2000/.30.png
(but with the Reforged style)
Ooooooooh someone actually did an edit of the WC3 dragon into a modern look
That would've been a perfect design for Reforged
dense plover
thats an edit of a wow model
terse patrol
I mena
dense plover
it wouldnt really work in WC3R because I dont think they can port between the two
distant folio
Yeah I know, but you know what I meant :p
dense plover
not easily at least
terse patrol
I wouldnt have minded if theyâd just used WoW models for reforged
distant folio
Eh, WoW models are a bit too cartoony, and they're really not detailed at all
distant folio
???
You said WoW models
WoW models are too cartoony
You didnât play WC3 clearly.
That's rule #1 in the book "How to sound like an ass"
terse patrol
No. I meant WC3 was very cartoony, moreso than WoW.
So using WoW models would have been fine.
distant folio
Uh no, WC3 was less cartoony than WoW. That's especially visible if you look at undead, demons or buildings. They pumped up the cartoon style for WoW, where they decided on their final artstyle.
But even then, I don't see how WoW models would've been better. Fans already do that themselves, they would bring nothing new. Reforged actually brings cool new models.
zealous basalt
Wow isn't supposed to have "realistic" models anyways, cartonish style works perfectly all things considered
dark furnace
I always thought the Wotlk weapons were trying to be realistic
And that's why they are so outdated now
And WC3 was probably cartoony because of limitations
tranquil steeple
tbh imo only thing cartoony in WC3 was some of the voicelines
tropic trail
Jaina in particular
And Illidan
Man, I hope they use Illidan's WoW voice actor for Warcraft 3. But it's doubtful. Too much work
dense plover
theyre probably gonna use liam o brian
he did the VO for illidan since BC
they already said theyre using Laura Bailey for Jaina, and she has been Jaina since wow jaina had VO
im pretty sure youll still be able to use the old VO and models if you want
theres an HD mode option
dark furnace
Will Matt Mercer do Rexxar as well?
I can't imagine they will re-do every character
unborn glacier
WoWs art style is timeless and ages well BECAUSE of its cartoony nature
I would HATE it is the game became super realistic and overly detailed
Those unreal renders of WoW zones I just don't like. They feel so soulless and hollow.
long blade
They are soulless and hollow because you donât see npcs or any action going
limber mural
Odd one but. If the Moment of Glory essence boosts damage by essences, how's that apply to Lucid Dreams?
long blade
Itâs just the same no matter the style
unborn glacier
They are hollow and soulless because that style just doesn't fit WoW
You could add all the npcs you want, but it would still feel shitty. WoW should never lose its cartoony style.
long blade
I guess thatâs your opinion
unborn glacier
Its a popular opinion
long blade
And so is updated graphics
Quite a lot of people want wow 2 or a newer wow.
The issue is that activision Blizzard chose to change WOWâs maturity to a more family friendly game
Which is why a lot of stuff got changed from classic and other games like WCII and WCIII
cyan prairie
Game as big as WoW would be difficult to play with better graphics, especially when we count the amount of spells etc. It's not some trash MMO, like ESO or whatever...
long blade
Or FFXIV?
both are good mmos, the issue isnât really the spells and stuff itâs that blizzard also makes more by letting toaster PCs run wow
cyan prairie
There is a reason why WoW lives so long, and other MMOs don't
long blade
If they upgrade to a new engine a lot of those people wouldnât be able to run wow
Well ESO still there and so is 14. WOW came out in 2004. Itâs old
cyan prairie
ESO is only 5 years old and the game kinda didn't exist until i think a few months ago. Then it came to live on a bigger scale, and... And it seems like it's back to non-existence?
long blade
Kinda didnât exist? I was there day one when it came out then stopped playing it due to life issues. Now that I got more time to play I play both wow and eso
cyan prairie
Ppl said that "WoW sucks, trash game" etc. Then they went to play other MMOs, and then they realised what a "trash game" really is.
long blade
And right now it pretty much outdid wow with this latest expansion
Honestly a trash game would be black desert online but eso and 14 arenât trash games at all. They are all on their own uniqueness
Iâm not hating on wow or saying itâs trash, I love wow, itâs my fav game, and I only started in legion. Which is why I would love to see it become updated as much as I can be
cyan prairie
I think that the expansion isn't as much of a problem as the people are. They wanted Classic so much just because it wasn't retail. If wow mechanics were as slow and poor as they did back then, the game would die for sure. Now when classic came out, ppl realised that what they remembered isn't actually what the game really was. Same is with BfA - ppl say it's a bad expansion while saying "Uuh WotLK had more content" - yeah... Lack of Mythic raids, lack of Mythic+, spamming the same dailies over and over (what is kinda the same as spamming WQs) was clearly a "more content" expansion.
I think that a part of the community forgot that there was an expansion called Warlords of Draenor...
long blade
Ok letâs talk serious here
In my honest opinion, WOD couldâve been better than BFA if they wouldâve finished the full expansion. The only reason WOD doesnât come on top of bfa is because it got cut short. Only 3 raids garrison content. WOD had a lot of potential, the classes had more flavor, the story although it was messy, it wasnât bad until the end. It couldâve gone better but yeah my point here isnât nostalgia, I donât agree with classic being better than bfa, it isnât at all. Itâs slow and boring but it has good RPG elements. So imagine if they could combine more RPG elements in wow, customization, updates graphics and a cohesive story
dense plover
it did not have the potential
garrisons were the worst kind of end game activity
WoD was great for about 2 months
long blade
Yes they were I didnât say garrisons were grate
dense plover
the best part was leveling
long blade
Great *^
long blade
But if instead of rushing to the end raid we couldâve explored the land were the Ogres came from
dense plover
they were strong but they were all very homogenous
it was fun to smash stuff with huge numbers
but all classes kinda felt the same
long blade
Plus the I believe the raid that was meant to be on Shattra
Classes had more flavor than bfa tho?
dense plover
there was supposed to be a bunch of other stuff
they didnt have more flavor, they had more abilities
that doesnt mean more flavor
they were tuned better
long blade
Are you telling me you enjoy current arcane mage over WOD arcane
cyan prairie
The only things i can call absolutely great from WoD are Frostfire Ridge campaign and the Blacrock Foundry sets.
long blade
Arcane rn is so boring and many other Specs suffer that
dense plover
yeah, thats mainly poor tuning and the loss of artifacts
long blade
Also WOD was more rewarding with exploration
dense plover
no it wasnt
long blade
Every chest had something unique
dense plover
no it didnt
long blade
Yes it did ? What?
dense plover
there were more specific chests
but not all chests were that
plenty just had garrison resources
long blade
There is like 10-15 toys I think from chests alone
dense plover
oh for sure, those arent great either
long blade
A gray item and maybe a green
dense plover
they need to return to the legion model
long blade
Exactly thatâs what we are comparing here BFA and WOD
dense plover
a mix of random chests and specific ones with cool rewards
why compare to WoD tho?
legion is more recent
and is a good baseline
Legion was a very good expac
long blade
Because legion is the good expansion everyone knows legion was better than WOD or BFA
dense plover
BfA is better than Warlords overall, but suffers from feeling so mediocre compared to legion
long blade
There is no need to compare
cyan prairie
Because ppl called BfA the worst expansion when it is far better than WoD
dense plover
when did you start playing WoD?
long blade
Itâs an automatic win
dense plover
did you play from the start?
long blade
No. I started in legion
long blade
I heard why it sucked end game had nothing
Garrisons made cities empty
Everything was given in the missions
Loot and mythic loot
Good
Gold*^
long blade
I know why it was bad
long blade
But my point wasnât that, my point was that If they wouldâve given it another chance and kept the expansion going and change a few things
They couldâve saved it
dense plover
what blizz needs to do (and almost definitely will) is to look at the success of Legion, and the failures of BfA and why those things didnt work, and fix them
long blade
Honestly the big reason BFA sucks the most is because you canât really play it more than twice or so
dense plover
IE - more WQ variety - fewer reputations, or make the goofy ones less significant, better reward scaling so that WQs are still good after doing normal or heroic raiding (probably via the return of some kind of valor system or something slightly more impactful than benthic upgrades)
BfA's problem is twofold
half is the problem you describe
long blade
Honestly each class felt unique in legion here is the same thing every class except for traits
dense plover
the other is that the AP grind feels pointless
long blade
Plus the AP grind
dense plover
the problem with the AP grind was that it was originall tied to armor talents, which was bad
long blade
The content isnât bad, but mythics and raids alone arenât enough
dense plover
and now you only get interesting things every 8 levels or so
legion did it right because you got a point every level
even if most of the points were fluff
dense plover
whatever AP grind comes with 9.0, it needs to give something each level
long blade
Class mounts
dense plover
well, we got rep mounts and dungeon mounts with BfA
long blade
Yeah mounts that cost 90k
dense plover
and yes the lack of armor sets feels bad
long blade
And they are recolors specially sucky ones for the alliance
dense plover
i 100% agree with the armor set issue
and imo they dont need to go back to class sets, but they still need to have the same total variety of sets
long blade
Yeah armors are really lacking like I donât get it? You pulled out resources to give us what exactly in return?
dense plover
probably to work on 8.3 and 9.0 honestly
long blade
Since the beginning ?
dense plover
since 8.1 probably
cyan prairie
Tbh BfA is not that bad - The raids feel better than the Legion ones (mechanic-wise) but the "casual content" struggles much more. Not to even mention gearing up an alt...
dense plover
thats why the nzoth zone was never finished
long blade
Class sets out of the window to work on 8.3 when we were barely in 8.1
dense plover
you are seeing the same type of thing that happened with warlords
except that the team is 2x larger
so they can do the baseline stuff they want to do
and still try some new things
IE Assaults
long blade
I love the raids and dungeons
dense plover
dungeons were mostly finished back in beta
dense plover
think about it, how many new dungeons did we get after 8.0 compared to legion?
1
mechagon
long blade
Legion got one too right ? Or 2 ?
dense plover
legion had 1 on broken shore, karazhan, and the argus dungeon
long blade
I know Argus had its own dungeon
dense plover
it had 3
long blade
Yeah there you go
cyan prairie
In Legion we got 3 new dungeons, with 2 of them being hated
long blade
They werenât so bad
dense plover
sick af
cyan prairie
Who plays lfg dungeons?
long blade
Affixes are just no fun on bfa tho
dense plover
the changes to mythic affix stacking fixed a bunch of the issues
they just need to add more variety
cyan prairie
Seat of Triumvirate was the most annoying Mythic+ dungeon of them all so far
dense plover
that was a worse problem in legion tbh
some weeks were impossible
in bfa some weeks are frustrating
but not impossible
theyre clearly still making improvements
hopefully we see them further develop the system
long blade
Yeah. Itâs brand new system so it has potential to change over time
dense plover
and we are also seeing them try optional difficulty enhances
the Visions of Ogrimmar and SW in 8.3 have things you can earn by running
they function sorta like toggleable keystones
earn the item, then you can activate to make the run harder but increase rewards
dense plover
actually the visions are small group
cyan prairie
Legion had dungeons like Upper Kara where you could faceroll it on Mythic+20 and higher with pugs and time it, and there were dungeons like Seat... Well do i even need to say what was wrong with Seat?
dense plover
thats why its interesxting
long blade
Another awesome thing from legion
dense plover
mage tower is supposed to be getting something similar in 8.3
i guess the big visions are sorta supposed to do that?
we dont really know the rewards yet
long blade
I hope they havenât fully datamined all the rewards yet
dense plover
tbh at this point im 100% blizz knows about the problems with BfA
cyan prairie
I hope i can get Saurfang Shoulder from it xD
long blade
Cause itâs very lacking so far
dense plover
oh they dont have any yet
its not that they havent been mined
they currently are almost entirely just currency and placeholders
dark furnace
I hope they make Heritage Weapons for the Mage Tower replacement
long blade
Mmm I see well I just hope they listen to feedback for next expac
dark furnace
A lot of people want them
dense plover
thats how Tanaan rares worked until like, 2 weeks before release
cyan prairie
The Rank4 essences can't replace the artifact appearances
cyan prairie
Since these essences won't probably exist in 9.0
long blade
Heritage weapons are probably a thing they are holding back for later content
long blade
Which is annoying but they donât wanna give it all away so fast
dense plover
and the azerite armor not needing higher levels
dark furnace
Legion was pretty focused on class, Bfa is more focused on the races
dense plover
and tbh I actually really like the azerite armor
long blade
I would like it if it werenât so rng
dense plover
if it didnt need levels to unlock from the start, and the talents werent so swingy, it would be much better
cyan prairie
Yeah the Azerite armor was shit in 8.0 due to low stats we had
dense plover
its a great concept, it suffers from poor execution
long blade
Or if other traits were equally valuable as others
cyan prairie
But over time it got much better
dense plover
hopefully they recognize that and develop on it
i dont want it throw out as much as repurposed
long blade
The fact that only one or two traits dominate makes it crappy
dense plover
and they did some other interesting things
cyan prairie
Yeah, but its still better than nothing
dense plover
benthic zone-tied affixes, the mechagon IF THEN rings, the mechagon trinket
theyre all interesting ideas
none of them perfect
but I hope they develop on all of them
because theyre all interesting
long blade
They can definitely expand on the HOA and make it more like a talent tree
cyan prairie
It kinda is a talent tree already